God Bless America at Jays Game

Subject: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 07:31 AM

As a dedicated baseball fan I watched the game last night between Toronto and New York. Much to my astonishment God Bless America was played at the seventh inning. People were told to rise, remove thier hats and sing..........IN CANADA. Apparently this was done on the orders of MLB.Many Canadians were offended by this. a perfect example of American arrogance and refusal to recognize other nations as having different views.
    How dare baseball tell Canadians to submit to this intrusion. So much for good neighbours.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 07:36 AM

Hey, it's OUR league and WE make the rules and if you don't like it, we'll take our bats and balls and go home!!!

On the other hand, the Cincy Reds opened their season and their new stadium, "The Great American Ballpark," with a pitch thrown out by Daddy Bush and Lee Greenwood singing that he's "Proud to be an American." All of this resulted in the Pirates tromping the Reds 10-1. So hush yer fussin'!

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:00 AM

Yoyr Game was played in Canada. How about a bit of respect for other countries. There are Canadian companies in America, they don't insist on Canadian Patriotic songs, I felt it was just plain insensitive, arrogant and insulting.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Paul S
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:05 AM

Another Canadian here. Sorry if this has been said over and over on other threads; this is the first one I've read after being away for months.

I am embarrassed for the behaviour of my government. Historically, Canada has always been right there to support the US and Britain, but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Canada was ridiculously slow to respond politically to 9/11. Britain immediately swore their support, and had a national day of mourning on September 12. It took Canada four or five days to have a memorial service on Parliament Hill, and our prime minister's response was lukewarm at best.

While the idea of a war horrifies me, there are some dictators who just don't respond to "please". If we are going to reap the benefits of living next to the largest superpower, we should be willing to pay with a little support.

... or our prime minister could AT LEAST stop telling the American public that they are involved in an illegal war.

To reiterate: So much for good neighbours.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:15 AM

Americans are good neighbours. That does not mean that we must follow blindly wherever they go. I am proud of our Government for doing what it thinks is best. It is not easy being next door to the US and I think it takes great courage to go your own way, in spite of the neighbours.
I also watched the ballgame and was amazed that this American Patriotism could be forced on people in Canada, especially since our democratically elected government opposes this war. An unfortunate example of arrogance.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Jays Fan
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:24 AM

Catspaw; your opening sentence says it all.Scary.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:50 AM

It is to puke. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:51 AM

Really pitiful. God Help America......

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM

I expect that America will be playing Rule Britannia at the next Game ? What unmitigated arrogance, and I am not Canadian.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:00 AM

Catspaw...do PLEASE take your toys and go home. If you did that all over the world perhaps we'd all have a rest from your bullying. Enough alrady.Here's your hat, what's your hurry.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:03 AM

Canada has supported the war on Terror..we have ships in the Persian Gulf, we sent troops to Afghanistan. Four of them were killed.....by Americans. Then you treat us like a colony. How dare you shove your phony patriotism down the throats of your "neighbours".

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:18 AM

And Americans wonder why they are seen as arrogant and misguided.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:20 AM

Who is Lincoln Al;exander and how dare he tell us to shut up and do as we are told. An unfortunate display if ever there was one. I too am growing weary of yankee arrogance. Take your game and go home, if that is how you feel children.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Jays Fan
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM

Now I suppose it will be Freedom Dry Gingerale, Freedom Club Rye,Freedom Bacon. USA ..out of North America...ha ha.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:54 AM

From what I understand, Canada (my home and native land) has about one trillionth the armed forces of the Excited States. As such, we can hardly even patrol the arctic, never mind assist an international invasion, legal or otherwise. In short, any assistance would be less than symbolic. Our expertise is more along the lines of peace-keeping and postconflict assistance.

I entirely disagree with this war and am proud that Canada has kept its distance, even if PM Cretin does a lousy job of expressing it. The assumption that the US is always backing Canada is false, and in fact there're continued disputes in trade, immigration, and elsewhere. It is insulting to me that the "if you're not for us, you're against us" reasoning seems to be so prevalent, and it smacks of arrogance and paranoia.

For MLB to dictate to Canada based teams regarding patriotic songs is petty arrogant paranoia, disrespectful of the host nation, qualities it seems to share with its government.

Peace (seriously), Mooh.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM

I too watched the game last night and found the assumption that Canadians should honour America in this way staggeringly insulting. I have been attempting to E mail MLB and The Toronto Blue Jays to express my anger but BOTH web sites are unavilable..is there a reason for this. I am bored to death with this BS of America the great..Petty bunch of spoilt brats.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:08 AM

Wh cares about baseball ? Canada won both golds at the World Junior Curling Championship on the weekend. And congrats to the US ladies on their silver.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:11 AM

Gnu, you have missed the point of the thread. Baseball is not the issue...Respect is the issue.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Paul S
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:16 AM

While we're all American-bashing, let's just think about a couple of things:

(1) References to "yankee arrogance" piss me off because once again, someone is using a generality to judge an entire nation (yep, that's called stereotyping). I've known a few Americans, and didn't find any of them arrogant. Even if they were the only ones, I'd be pissed on their behalf.

(2) Let's remember that there are people in Iraq who wish their only problem was a song at a sporting event. But they've been too busy being oppressed, killed, raped, tortured, used as a bullet shield, etc. by their own government.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:18 AM

Gee, Spaw, someone took you seriously!! Better get the Reg boyz in here to fix things up!

FWIW, I think it is outrageous that the anthem was used in such a way and in a foreign country. I, as an American, am totally opposed to the war and am glad that Canada and other countries keep telling our government that they are wrong.

One thing I think it is good to note...imo, baseball and other sports do often attract the more patriotic-touting types, so...I guess they may be in people's faces more then some of the rest of us.

*ducking and covering my head for that last bit*

kat

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:22 AM

If the issue ain't baseball, then go out and start your own league like you did with that Mickey Mouse CFL thing! I think the Canadian parks ought to have to serve only American foods and especially American hot dogs and Budweiser or Miller beer. Hell, I doubt you even HAVE Cracker Jacks!!! You wanna' play baseball with us, play it our way!!

Spaw

(BTW, you're a piss poor troll that obviously spends very little time here. Otherwise you would have both ignored my first post because my views are well enough known by most that they knew I was joking. Second, these multiple Guest/Predominantly Guest postings generally means that all the Guests are the same one, especially when you make no effort to change the style and wording of your multiple identities. Maybe it's just an April Fool you're doing because if you're serious about wanting to be a troll, you really have a long way to go.)

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:23 AM

No One is American Bashing, nor is anyone stereotyping. I hate that word because people always use it to "stereotype" those with whom they disagree as "anti-American" or America bashing. The specious arguement that a song at sporting eventis nothing compared to what is going on in Iraq is tiresome, to say the least. The point is That America does behave in an arrogant manner much of the time..It does not mean that individual Americans are arrogant...that was neither said nor implied, which is, I think, obvious.
   To insist on American Patriotism in a forgien country is rude and yes, arrogant. To call us anti-american for resenting it is just another dose of the same crap.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James TrelawneyCanada
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:29 AM

I guees if more than one person critizes you Spaw you think they are all the same person..can't imagine two people who would disagree..I come here quite often actually, but do not post often..your views are obvious in many threads.
   I cannot speak for the other guests, but i do find you a tad sensitive.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM

I didn't miss the point. I just had nothing constructive to add to the thread so I thought I'd take the opportunity to praise our young ladies and men for the great curling. Anyone who missed these games missed some excellent curling, even if it was at a junior level.

Spaw... they do sell Bud, but it's brewed in Canada so it actually tastes like beer.

BTW, God bless America and GO 7TH.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:33 AM

Well, as as Canadian this insulted me at first. However, Oh Canada is played before all NHL games and the majority of them are in the States. I would rise for it as I would out of respect for any National Song, but, I wouldn't sing it. I do agree it's a pretty sad move by MLB. The Star Bangled Banner had already been sung before the start of the game.      

'Spaw, you'd have a riot on your hands if you tried to force us to drink that swill that you guys call beer. And good luck beating a Shopsy's or Schneiders all beef hot dog.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:39 AM

That's complete bullshit Steve!!! Good American dogs are all a pasty gray color and have been steaming in the bun for 3 days! Plus we allow up to 2% floor sweepings and rat excrement in ours! You need it for them to be tasty!

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:39 AM

I agree that the US national anthem should be played in Canada when American teams are playing, and it should be treated with respect. It was the dictating of Playing God Bless America that riled me. I am sure that Americans would feel the same way if this were dictated to them. It is just a matter of courtesy and respect toward a host country.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM

Sounds like they'd go well with some TTB.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:48 AM

".... that swill that you guys call beer"

tsk, Steve...you haven't been offered the GOOD stuff! There are many, many breweries now that make world class beer. Don't let the idiots who still drink Bud lite influence your opinion.

Ever since the New Albion brewery in about 1977, US beer has gotten better & better.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM

I AM AN IDIOT !

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:56 AM

Oops, since I drink Canehdian Bud, that should read, I AM A CANADIAN IDIOT. Take that any way you want.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:17 AM

April Fools!!!!!

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:33 AM

SHHHH !!!

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: JenEllen
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:51 AM

It was a ridiculous and stupid stunt, but hardly as stupid as all the uproar OVER it. For shit's sake, it's the seventh inning stretch---go for a walk, get a beer and a dog, or just plug your ears and hum 'Take Me Out to the Ballgame', but most of all remember that IT'S A GAME!!!
~J

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:29 PM

When does it stop being "a game" ?When does it start to be...no Canadian Anthem. If this kind of control it to be held by Canadian Corps. operating in Canada..where does it stop. I think we do deserve some respect in our own house.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:30 PM

Bill D.

I'm sure that there are some good ones, I just haven't had them. I visit the U.S. a lot and it seems that every one is drinking Bud or Coors Lite. I always bring a couple of cases of Canadian Beer with me, it goes pretty quickly.

'Spaw, oh, THOSE hot dogs. Yeah, you can get them in any hockey arena in Canada. Accompany one with a cup of vending machine chicken soup and you've got the worst meal you've ever had.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:35 PM

gnu, I get good curling here every time I go to the beauty shop where their sign on a hearse parked out front says "We curl up and dye for you!"

Ya'll know them hot dogs are so full of pree-zurv-ah-tees that they are intact 12 years later when dug up at a landfill, right? Nasty, nasty stuff!!

Spaw, nailed 'em, agin...darlin'

kat

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM

Insisting on God Bless America being sung in the seventh inning at a Canadian ball park was wrong. It was a baseball game, not a political rally and I thought it was awfully cheap. I'm ashamed that the Jays complied. This has nothing to do with my opinions on George Bush or Iraq. It was completely inappropriate to insist we symbolically support the U.S. government's decisions on Iraq just because we have a major league baseball team.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Susanl
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 12:53 PM

That last post was from me. I didn't mean to post as an anonymous guest.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 01:09 PM

Susan, you better that much better than I have..but it is what I, and others, have been trying to say. Thanks

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 01:20 PM

Truthfully, I have always wondered what the point of the/any National Anthem was at a sports event, maybe with the exception of the Olympics. What's the point? Outside of the old joke about the last two words of the Star Spangled Banner being "Play Ball," I can't see it. Have we researched this before? Where did this start?

Every damn sports event in the US begins with the SSB. I can understand some local tune thing like "Back Home Again in Indiana" at the Indy 500 or "My Old Kentucky Home" at the Kentucky Derby, but what's with the SSB? Every high school football game and every pro ball game begin with it. You go to some third mile dirt track in the sticks and they play the damn thing. Why do I need to verify my patriotism to watch 40 shitkickers in half-assed jalopies while choking on dust on a 95 degree afternoon? Do I need to be a patriot to see a ten year old drop a fly in short right?

What IS the point?

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: JenEllen
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM

Susan, you are correct, as always. What I personally find offensive is that, once again, Americans are being stereotypically labeled as responsible for an action. Our government is supposedly of and for the people, and you see how little control we have over that, so what makes anyone think we can dictate, or are responsible for, the actions of a private corporation? The only way to get them is in the pocketbook, and the supposed offense to Canada didn't stop thousands of folks from buying tickets and filling the stands.
~JE

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 01:38 PM

I don't mind the playing of anthems. However, perhaps we should restrict ourselves to anthems of the host country. It would certainly avoid a lot of controversy and misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:27 PM

I went to the game not knowing that God Bless America would be played. It never occured to me that I would be coerced into tacit support for thos American political propaganda. I was even more offended by Lincoln Alexander, who I thought had better sense. If Americans wish to be seen as respecting the rights of others, they need to stop making excuses for their own ignorance of other cultures.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:31 PM

Does anyone have any proof that this happened?
There's no mention on the cbc website and it is April first.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:46 PM

I was there, I happened.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM

Who are YOU???

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM

Jeeze Louise, guys...take a chill pill and find your centers. Spaw's right about the hot dogs, though...

A

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM

why, after Canadian fans booed the American National Anthem at an earlier sporting event, would anyone assume that sooner or later Canadians wouldn't get their noses rubbed in it? Take the punch....Ach! its only a game....

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:50 PM

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:52 PM

Jeese, ait was booed in Quebec, they boo ALL anthems there, even Canadas.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Jays fan
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM

It came up in the Hose of Commons. Apparently MLB has been inundated with e mails about it. All it tells me is that America is still America...Corporate insensitivity and political arrogance.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:56 PM

'Spaw,

Why and how it got started is a good question. It's something that I never thought about. Heck, I remember going to movies in the early sevnties and having to stand for Oh Canada. Now, let me share one of my lastest pet peeves. When I played hockey Oh Canada was played before games. We removed our helmets and stood at attention. I watch players now with helmets on, shuffling their feet, talking to other players etc. Peolpe in the stands are talking etc. It drives me nuts. I guess my take is that the playing of the National Anthem is something that will take place, show a little respect for a minute or so.

JenEllen, don't go encouraging Susan. She is not always right.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:01 PM

And who's national anthem should be "told" to play ?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM

She may not always be right Steve, but she sure is GOOD!

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Susanl
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM

James is right. Quebec is a different story.

I disagree with playing only the host's national anthem. One could make a case against playing anthems at all at a sporting event but if any anthems get played, then the anthems of both teams should be played.

JenEllen, I don't know any Canadians who hold all Americans responsible for decisions made by corporations and/or the American government. The overwhelming feeling here is affectionate and respectful towards the American people. What I objected to was the imposition of a political stance at a sporting event. And let's say I'd bought tickets for opening day for my nephew and me. I didn't hear about the God Bless America clause until yesterday. So, would I have told my nephew that we couldn't go because I objected to their God Bless America decision? Possibly. I guess it would have been an opportunity to teach my nephew about taking a stand. But it also would have ruined a 9 year old's day. It was just inappropriate for Major League Baseball to dictate what they did and for the Jays to comply.

They did play God Bless America at the 7th inning stretch yesterday and there was some cheering. Canadians who disagreed would have been forced to boo God Bless America in order for their voices to be heard. I don't know any Canadians who would do that because it would be disrespectful to Americans and we LIKE Americans. It was unfair for any of us to be put in that position.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Sarah, a guest
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:25 PM

As a hereditary Yankees fan, I can say THAT was a bit of a jaw-dropper. I guess MLB thought it wouldn't smack of unilateralism if they used Celine Dion's record. Irate letters to Selig are in order, I think.

Meantime perhaps residents of the Blue States should respectfully request that the rest of the world not mistake Republicans for Americans, hard though it may be these days.

Sarah

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

Ummmmm, technically, isn't Canada in North America? I mean, the song says God Bless AMERICA, not God Bless the USA.

Don't y'all reckon there are bigger fish to fry that this?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

The fact that Canada is in North America has nothing to do with it. THat song has nothing to do with Canada. Kim C, do you really not know anything about the song "God Bless America"? If you do not, you are in the right place to ask. There's a lot of musical knowledge in the Mudcat.

I found an article quoting Blue Jays management saying they chose to play the song to show that they do not agree with the stance of the Canadian government. They have not decided if they will play the song at Sunday games and on holidays as requested by the league.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM

Well Jack,

I can see it happening once, that's just a bad decision by someone in Blue Jays Management and I can forgive it. But if they choose to play it again, then that's shoving our nose in it. I would boycott Jays games and hope that others would too.

'Spaw, Yeah, you've got me there. I'm still the best Banjo playing Latimer in Whitby though.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:06 PM

JenEllen... "...and the supposed offense to Canada didn't stop thousands of folks from buying tickets and filling the stands."

Uh, care to retract or explain or ?

Hey, this is small shit compared to our past... and I'm not going to bring any of it up. Times are tense. Some Yanks think that because we didn't ignore the UN and jump in, we should be snubbed. Well, that's their opinion, wrong, but their opinion. What are you going to do ? Not play baseball, a game invented in Canada (see many past threads)?

BTW, I certainly hope the refs have better glasses than the A-10 pilots.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Jim Flannerty
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:23 PM

For heaven's sake, have some of you gone nuts? The players on all teams DO support America's war effort, probably 99 to 1. The owners and officials DOUBLY support it! Why would they not? They are wealthy conservative men who hang out with others of their ilk. There are no borders in THEIR society.

The crowd was polite and respectful. Why wouldn't it be? For the most part their demographic would be quite supportive of the war. These folks LOVE Don Cherry, probably are suspicious of Jean Chretien's motives, and are OVERWHELMINGLY white, with money (you know how expensive those tickets are) . I'm not being critical, just saying that the demographics would say that they support the war, probably in the 75% range.

Disagree with me if you'd like, but that's my take. I don't think Major League Baseball worried about the reaction at all.

Jim

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM

Well, Jack, as a matter of fact I do, thank you very much. I was just making a point that there are a lot more important things to worry about than what song gets played at what baseball game. Sorry.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: JenEllen
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 05:59 PM

Gnu, what I meant was that I'd heard about the anthem clause WELL before the start of the game, and I live clear on the other side of the continent. As Susan said, some folks may have decided to go to the game and rather than make a political stand. All I am saying is that if you CHOOSE to go, spend your money KNOWING that you are going to be offended, then you deserve what you get. Why complain about it later? Buying a ticket and going to a game knowing you will be upset would, to me, be like paying someone to kick you in the nuts.

Steve, she might not be right all the time, but she's well thought out. That counts for a lot.

Susan, I'm not sure what I'd do in that scenario myself. Guess it depends on the nephew. 9 is old enough to make his own decision about what's important to him. A wonderful auntie would be one who would explain the situation, and possible courses of action ("We'll go and be respectful" "We'll just ignore it" "We'll scalp our tickets and go to the batting cages instead"), and trust the child to act on what he thinks is best. That would be the last thing to ruin his day.

~JE

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 06:05 PM

"anthem clause" ? That's the start of an explanation. Please expand.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Susanl
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 06:22 PM

Anthem clause? It was just a short and slightly snarky way of describing it. Not technically accurate but I figured everyone knew what I meant.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: JenEllen
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:27 PM

Maybe snarky, but certainly apt. *g* I do have to explain the blanket generalization of Americans being held responsible for the action. An example of that might be that I've sort of convinced the people I work with that Monday afternoons need to be heightened by a listen to Acoustic Workshop on web radio. I wasn't working yesterday, but the guys listened anyway (it's a tradition now). I came home and ended up fielding a bunch of phone calls from the folks that did listen, and I'm only hearing this second hand, mind you, but the gist was that Rick's sidekick would have gladly taken free tickets to the game to boo at the playing of the song. (Hey, that's another possibility for the nephew-- "We could always give our tickets to Professor Pete so he can go and be self-righteous and puke over the rails"). Not an objection to the causes of the offense, namely MLB, no one booed when they mentioned the game was brought to them by Major League Baseball, did they? But there was a blanket objection to a song. Of all the people who should know the power of song, it should be folkies, right? Maligning a nation's music is maligning the nation itself and all it's inhabitants along with it.
~JE

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:25 PM

NEITHER MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL INC. NOR THE ACOUSTIC WORKSHOP ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OUTBURSTS OF ANY "SIDEKICKS".

On the other hand, perhaps we can have a contest to send Peter down to the blue jays dugout, where he can discuss the war with Carlos Tosca!*







*to know why this is a funny concept you have to do a good search on the background of Carlos Tosca.

Rick

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:55 PM

Well, I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but please believe that I am expressing a sincere sentiment.

I've often felt sorry for American children, who are force-fed patriotism in their schools, before they are old enough to understand the concept. Children as young as 6 are taught, and required to recite, the Pledge of Allegiance, which cannot possibly mean anything to them at that age. Thus they are not allowed to develop a sense of love or loyalty to their country -- they learn it by rote.

American patriotism is then reinforced by just such performances as the one as the Jays game -- the SSB is played at virtually all performances of any kind; America the Beautiful is not only played at many events, but is often recorded by performers (Ray Charles' version is awesome); God Bless America, since 9/11 has been heard virtually everywhere.

What kind of patriotism is it when it is taught, then reinforced at every opportunity? What kind of patriotism is it that calls a country "best" instead of "good" or "great"? What kind of patriotism leads people to deny any flaws in their country or government?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:11 PM

It is not well known, but "God Bless America" is in fact a Canadian song. It was written in 1915 by Hiram Snedley of Kapuskasing, Ontario. Snedley, who was born in Quebec City on January 12, 1874 to an English father and a Cree mother, was a carpenter and amateur scrimshaw artist who enjoyed a brief burst of notoriety when he tried to introduce wattle and daub architecture to the north woods. A fine musician and staunch Canadian patriot, he had written a number of songs that had mostly a limited local distribution, including "Brave Battling Beavers" and "We Love Our Canadian Snow." Snedley was proud of this new song, which he called "God Bless Canada," and decided to put quite a bit of his own money into publishing it; however, it met with very limited success. In 1918, a close friend of Snedley's, newspaper editor and bassoonist Elbert Whift, mentioned to him that the line, "God Bless Canada" didn't quite scan, and that this rhythmic dysfluency might possibly have something to do with the song's lackluster sales record. This news hit poor Snedley quite hard. He became despondent, took to drink, and was last seen paddling his canoe northward on the Kapuskasing River, with a case of whiskey and 700 copies of "God Bless Canada" in the bow. Whift promptly changed the name of the song to "God Bless America" and sent it to Irving Berlin, who, as it happened, had once befriended a distant cousin of Whift's when she was down on her luck in New York. The rest, as they say, is history.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:16 PM

I read Mark's post while I was eating a peanut-butter cookie. I'm now on my way to Emergency.

LOL!!

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:32 PM

Mark,

I am a bit of a music history buff. I had never heard this story. Man, the things that you learn here at the 'Cat. I knew it was a Canadian song, a guy at Tim Horton's told me so, but he said it was a Neil Young song, and that he had to leave it with border guards in order to get into the U.S. when he was escaping to L.A. in an old hearse filled with stolen P.A. gear.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:44 PM

Steve--

He was wrong.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 11:50 PM

Mark,

YOu shot that down pretty quickly. I'm not even going to tell the Stompin' Tom version.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:17 AM

Sorry, Steve, it's hard to convey nuances of expression on the keyboard. That Neil Young story is one of those urban legends that just won't die, and I guess I figured that as a music history buff you would have known that. I didn't mean to snow on your parade. Stompin' Tom, now, that's a wolverine of a different color...

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:26 AM

I'll pursue that one and get back to you. Thanks for setting me straight.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:26 AM

Jenellen, When Iraq is free from Saddam, we can all sing.
"I'll sing you a sweeter song another day" --Theocritus

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:55 AM

I have been trying for two days to access either MLB or the Jays web site and find that they are both unavailable. Has anyone else e mailed them or had any problems ?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:32 AM

Surely there is not a plan to repeat this insult . Is there ? Please say it ain't so.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:01 AM

MAjor League Baseball asked that GBA be sung during the 7ty inning stretch at all home openers, so no, the Toronto fans will not have it played there again. Interestingly enough, in reading the news briefs on the net, most state that the fan reaction was either positve or neutral with little dissent at the game.

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:19 AM

I watched the game. There was no booing. I think most people would be polite enough not to do that. However, some news sources did report that many people took offence.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:34 AM

The playing of anthems is something that occurs all over the world. My problem with this is the way they are being presented, the singing of an anthem (any anthem) should be dignified and sincere, It should not be portrayed as a pop song, a rap song, a rock and roll song, simply because thay are NOT SONGS, they are ANTHEMS and should be held in reverence, They should not even be cheered at the end. Cheering an national anthem is like cheering the Lord's Prayer, they deserve more respect than that. However the playing of SSB at the Blue Jay game served I believe as an opportunity for many canadians to show their support for our american neighbours, whether we believe in this war or not, they are our friends and neighbours, and as not all canadians are happy with the stand our government took on this issue the baseball game gave many the chance to show the americans that they do have many friends up here. I don't think anyone in their right mind really wanted a war, and many americans voiced their opposition to it, just as many canadians voiced their support for it, too bad the Iraqi people cannot voice their opinion on anything and we should not forget that.
To all the american catters I just wnat you to know that I have travelled extensively throughout the atates and have met only warm, helpful and friendly people (friendly to a fault), I cannot say that I fully support this war but I do think Canada should have acted more like a neighbour and friend. lets hope and pray pray that it will be a short one and that all your sons, daughters husbands, wives and family members and friends are back home safely very soon.

Carole C - you are right - it is only a game,

Peace

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: JenEllen
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:45 AM

Guest, you think the world needs to be free from Saddam, and you might be right, but there's no guarantee that this current action is the way to do it. The world would also be better off without political bullying, forced patriotism, and knee-jerk reactions that only serve to hurt people working towards an identical cause of peace.... The added insult is that I don't think any of those things has a lick to do with baseball.

Mark, I may have to carpool to emergency with the other Guest. I think I blew some stitches. *g*

~Jen

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,James
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM

Jimmy; It was not the usual playing of the SSB that caused offence to some. It MLB insistence that God Bless America be played at the seventh inning. Some people felt that we should not be coerced into that sort of propagand at a sports event that took place in a country which, rightfully or not, has chosen not to support America, Britain or Australia in this War.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:54 AM

My son watched the game, and told me there was a bit of booing. No doubt - how would Americans react if they were "forced" to sing "O Canada"? Personally, I don't like the political implications of it at all. Sounds like Big Brother "power-over" tactics to me.

But yes, God Bless America is a fine sentiment indeed. Remembering that "God" blesses those who bless themselves, of course.

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:05 PM

Guest, you say: "What kind of patriotism leads people to deny any flaws in their country or government? "

That's kind of an odd question. In the very first place, America, the Beautiful addresses that specific issue, exhorting: God mend thine every flaw.

Secondly, can you tell me of ANY national anthem that does criticize itself?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:15 PM

Responding to Ebbie:

I wasn't referring to a national anthem, I was referring to the kind of patriotism that results from what I described in the previous paragraphs of that post.

It's the kind of non-thinking, knee-jerk, conditioned-response patriotism that leads to such stuff as "love it or leave it." It precludes critical thinking, reasoning and objectivity.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Susanl
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:42 PM

Kim C, you're right. There are bigger fish to fry. But I think it's what it represents that drew so many people into the discussion. It was a gesture that at once gave a voice to all those who support a war and silenced those who don't. To boo God Bless America is to boo Americans. There are much more important things to worry about right now but I think the discussion was started by people who wanted to express themselves beyond a "Yer either fer us or agin us." mentality. A LOT of people around the world are tired of being put in that position, including many Americans.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:45 PM

James, I understand that and I wonder how many fans even knew about it before going to the game. I imagine many may have been caught unawares but out of common courtesy they stood fot it. I was relieved and delighted that any booing was very small. Last week on the news I watched in disgust as an american flag was being burned by some yahoo in Toronto , it was enough to make me puke. We don't have to agree with everything the Americans do, or the British , or the Irish or Australians or the French or anybody else for that matter but I hope we always have the decency to respect their emblems and their anthems. It is these emblems and anthems that represent the people and we should never intentionally insult them, especially when they are our neighbours.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:35 PM

Well said JimmyC

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:48 PM

I for one an really glad that the Canadians finally are complaining about Yankee arrogance. As a Mets fan I have no respect for the Yankees either.

By the way, how the hell do you "force" someone to sing God Bless America?   Are Canadians really that programmed that they do everything they are told?   Were the Mounties circling the ballpark with weapons?

It isn't like you were "forced" to pledge allegiance to another country. It is a damn song, and not even official. I'm disgusted by the war as well - we shouldn't be there and it is a crime, but booing a song or a country isn't solving anything - it just shows that none of us are above racism and hatred. Canadians are no different.   I just know that the crowd at a Blue Jays game is not indicitive of the people of an entire country.   

Personally I think it is a crime that "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" isn't played. It's un-American not to sing it!

By the way, how did the Expos crowd handle it... oh, yeah I forgot. My mistake - putting "Expos" and "crowd" in the same sentence.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:51 AM

Kim C said.

"Well, Jack, as a matter of fact I do, thank you very much. I was just making a point that there are a lot more important things to worry about than what song gets played at what baseball game. Sorry. "

Kim Canadians are very sensative about US domination of the popular culture. Its very important to a lot of us that the US remembers that Canada IS a seperate country and not a lap dog.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:52 AM

BTW sorry about the "God Bless America" crack. I was just trying to be funny.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:36 AM

The story I heard is that major league baseball has "decreed" that God Bless America must be played during the seventh inning stretch at all games, as long as the US continues to invade Iraq. At the game in question, the crowd was told to stand up, remove their hats - and sing too - even though the game was in Toronto.

No, you can't force people to sing, but this is about as close to it as most people in "free" countries would want to get! Probably closer. At least NHL policy is that both anthems are played, when an American team plays in Canada and vice versa.

I don't think that people who express public discontent with current US actions abroad are necessarily racist or full of hate. Just extremely discontent, and justifiably so imo. Booing anthems and burning flags may not be 'polite', but neither is the bombing of Iraq or the Project for a New American Century.

At least no-one can get arrested for non-violently expressing discontent, however colourfully. Yet. Let's treasure what's left of democratic freedom in this country, close as we are to the apparent US descent into hell.

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:23 AM

Daylia - we aren't talking about the National Anthem - and BOTH are played. This is the 7th inning stretch.

ALL major league ballparks also tell the crowds when to cheer and boo. We aren't drones.   If you go to someones house and they say grace before a meal, you sit quietly and politely if you do not practice the faith.   If you disagree with the sentiments of a song, sitting down is probably the greatest protest you can give.

Booing a country and it's citizens lowers the fans to the same level. They are no better.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:59 AM

Ron, it's been a very long time since I've watched a game - I was going by what I read in the news and what my son had to say. Thanks for clearing that up about the national anthems.

Baseball fans need to be TOLD when to cheer and boo? Why? Don't the "powers that be" trust people's natural inclinations/emotions? Maybe that's why I don't like armchair sports much - too political.

Of course I agree with what you said about sitting quietly and politely when people say grace if you don't practice the faith. But this is different - saying grace is a harmless activity which does not usually result in, or seek to justify war.   

I doubt many people outside of Germany would have sat quietly and politely while Hitler raised the swastika in the 40's. I glad they didn't! And there are many who see the current situation in the US exactly the same way.

I sure hope they're wrong!

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:18 PM

Daylia - The powers that be in baseball and in other sports feel it is necessary to program scoreboards and P.A. systems to "pump up" the crowd with music or videos to get them cheering, clapping or booing. In the "old days" you would get someone playing the organ BETWEEN innings or joining in when a rally started. Where is Jane Jarvis when you need her.

I'm not sure if singing "God Bless America" justifies a war. For way too long conservatives have claimed the right to the flag and patriotism. The left has been wrong to not claim the right to be patriots and have pride in their country.   While many will hear God Bless America and feel that it is a call to support the war, that is only because we have let it happen.   I can love my country and still be against this insane war.

Saying grace a harmless activity? It seems that most wars are fought because of ones religion.

Those that connect the American flag with Hitler's swastika are misguided. There is rhetoric on both sides. We are wrong for being in Iraq, but our intent is not to wipe out the Iraqi people.   Shamefully many Iraqis are indeed being killed, but to compare it to Hitler's planned and methodic executions is very, very wrong.

Ron

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:28 PM

Well Ron, talk about whooping up the crowd, I heard that Pete Rose was on hand to lead the singing!!! (running, ducking, serpentine, serpentine)

BTW, the other night a local school program had a group of patriotic songs they did prior to a school meeting. They sang This Land Is Your Land just before God Bless America and I kinda' enjoyed the irony of the juxtaposition so afterwards I go up the director and ask, "Do you know the history of This Land Is You Land?" Give you one guess what the answer was.

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:23 PM

Baseball fans need to be TOLD when to cheer and boo? Why? Don't the "powers that be" trust people's natural inclinations/emotions? daylia,

Why not, when it is perceived that we need to be shown when to laugh, for pity's sake, during a TV show.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:27 PM

I also like the history of The Pledge of Allegiance. Written by a socialist in 1892, the pledge was meant to help immigrants. It was also recited with the extended right hand, but that was dropped when the Nazi's use of the gesture gave it a new meaning.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:28 PM

Spaw - I doubt Pete Rose would be able to remember the words.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:48 AM

'Spaw, I do know the little-known history of "This Land is Your Land". It's quite a bit different from "God Bless America", as I'm sure you know...but this is a family site, so I'd better stop there.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 09:02 AM

Well maybe some people need to be shown when to laugh or cheer or boo, but it seems very odd to me. Maybe I just don't watch enough TV, so I can still figure it for out myself!

Re the connection between war and singing "God Bless America" - the new MLB policy is to continue until the US ends it's attack on Iraq. So it ain't that hard to figure out why the "powers that be" want it sung, is it? Maybe to rouse up patriotism, support the gov't policy for war etc?

Saying grace does not require any special religious affiliation or training. I thought that all was required gratitude for the food about to be eaten? And yes, most wars are fought over one's religion. In the case of Iraq, it's the "religion" of Western capitalism - "In God We Trust", after all! And "God's" right on the money!!

Maybe this is what they'll be singin in Iraq a year from now ...

""This land is my land, it is not your land,
Ever since you bombed out the road to Baghdad.
You drove our nation to the Great Gas Station.
This land was swiped by you from me!"

(Apologies to Bill D for desecrating the Native American version of Woody's classic he posted a while back)

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 11:27 AM

I've already posted this in one of the other Iraq threads. But since people are talking here about patriotism, I thought it was worth posting here too.

"Here's an article which articulates many of the reactions to the war which I share, but written by someone who is more familiar with US history, and expressed in terms which might let our sincerely patriotic and thoughtful American friends realise how much of the rest of the world views their country's current behaviour.
Article by Jonathan Freedland."

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Marion
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM

Since someone raised the topic of flag-burning, here's my favourite moment in the history of Canadian-American diplomacy:

Some of Fred Phelps' group came up to Ottawa to protest a favourable ruling for same-sex spouses by the Supreme Court. (And you probably know who Fred Phelps is even if you don't recognize the name - he leads the "church" that pickets "God Hates Fags", "Thank God for AIDS" etc. at various events, including Matthew Shephard's (sp?) funeral.)

Anyway, this group intended to burn a Canadian flag, but as they began, a Mountie realized that they didn't know what they were doing and the way they were trying to do it could be dangerous. So he gave them instructions and helped them get it ignited safely.

The Mountie got some criticism for helping burn the Maple Leaf, but also some praise, and I think it was beautiful. Both as a way of making the homophobes look ridiculous, and as a way of expressing Canadian values: "Burn our flag, big deal. Let's just nobody get hurt."

Marion

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM

BRAVO MARION! Hadn't heard that one!

Rick

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 01:05 PM

This happened summer of 1999, Rick. Though I was at the counter-demo I didn't see the flag incident - but that was what was in the paper.

Marion

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM

HMMMM...Mudcat is an American (US American) site. And this is a music forum... Max! Max! I have a great idea!



For the record, no one has to stand or sing at ballgames. I have a friend who refuses to do either. His statement against the militarism of our anthem. I know many who will not stand hand over heart and recite the Pledge Of Allegiance. Freedom of Speech, you know. Protected by the Constitution and rightly so.

GUEST,pdc. The US is not the only country that teaches patriotism to its young. All do. What is wrong with teaching a child to love and respect his homeland, never to take it for granted? Religions go much further teaching children that martyrdom is a sure way to get into heaven. Please note: this is what I was taught in kindergarten in a Roman Catholic school. It went a steo further - refusal to die rather than give up Catholicism was a one way ticket to hell. Strange ideas to feed impressionable little minds, no?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 07:44 PM

Daylia - you missed my point about "grace".   I was trying to say that more wars are fought in the name of a God. Those who do not wish to particpate in prayer do not have to do so, they just sit and respect those that do - not make a big deal out of it.

As for baseball's "policy" about the song - so what? They are a business and they made a decision.   If they decide to hold Bat Day do we deride them for giving weapons to children? The owners made a decision to sing a certain song at a certain time - that is their right as business owners. It isn't a "right" to attend a ballgame, it is a choice. You pay to be entertained.   That doesn't mean you have to like it or participate.

Ron

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 10:08 PM

Response to Sinsull:

You said "The US is not the only country that teaches patriotism to its young. All do. What is wrong with teaching a child to love and respect his homeland, never to take it for granted?"

I must ask you to list any countries that you know of that require children to learn a pledge of allegiance by rote when they are too young to understand what they are saying. Your comparison with religion is right on -- children are presented with such adult concepts as patriotism and religion before they understand them, and by the time they are adults, beliefs have been inculcated to the point of acceptance, thus preventing critical, considered thought.

(Gotta make dinner, but will rant more later!)

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Apr 03 - 09:56 AM

OK Ron, I give! I'm someone who rarely watches TV (sports or otherwise) and sees "spirituality" (ie. practicing gratitude etc) as something quite alien to organized religion and "prayer". So we are obviously coming from a different perspectives entirely.

You're right - I certainly wouldn't pay to be "entertained" by or participate in something I dislike! (Like being told when to express which feelings en masse, including patriotism).

APC, thanks for the link - a most interesting article.

This article by New York Times war reporter Tom Paine, War Is A Force Which Gives Us Meaning, gives valuable insight into the nature and purpose of war-time patriotism. Paine writes that "When a country prepares for war and goes to war, there are changes in that country's politics and culture ... a myth emerges -- a seductive myth as leaders spin out a cause ... patriotism, a "thinly veiled form of self-worship appears." (emphasis mine).

Paine says that the "myth" is intentionally intoxicating, serving to   mislead, distract and thereby "protect" the population from the horrible realities of the war they are supporting.

I think that anyone interested in helping "God Bless America" would find the article quite useful.

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM

The ways and means of war-time patriotism - Yankee style!

:)    I guess

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 10:34 AM

GUEST,pdc. I know of no other country that has a "Pledge Of Allegiance" however China starts their children on Chairman Mao's teachings by age 5. At home, children witness their families being called out every morning to exercise "for the good of the state". Children in most countries learn their National Anthem without having a clue as to what the words mean - and so they mangle them badly.

I am confused. Is your onjection to the teaching of patriotism (done in all countries) or the Pledge itself?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 01:38 PM

Response to Sinsull:

I object to the teaching of patriotism by rote, sure, whether in the US, China or wherever. I object to patriotism being a featured aspect of any and every kind of public gathering. Why does it have to be reinforced constantly -- is there a fear that without reinforcement people will be less patriotic?

But my biggest objection stems from the use of the word "best." When people are taught, not that they live in a "good" country, but in the "best" country, how do they reconcile that with drive-by shootings, inner city poverty, major drug and violence problems, money spent on war that could help alleviate domestic problems? Faced with that kind of distorted reality, people must become confused at least, neurotic at most.

An example: throughout these posts and posts on other forums I follow, people constantly refer to the fact that they have the right of free speech, as though that was solely found in the US. I firmly believe that statements such as those are facile to the point of being meaningless, and are learned from rhetoric. MANY places in the world have the right of free speech, not only the US!

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 07:38 PM

Come on guest, relax a bit. Nobody claimed that the U.S. was the SOLE country with the right of free speech so don't start putting words in people's mouths. If someone asks you if the glass is half full or half empty, you would reply the glass is simply dirty.

Of course there are problems here in the U.S., don't be ignorant to the fact that we are all aware of it. Many of us are trying to do something about it too.

Patriotism is overdone? I can't disagree, it isn't necessary to stick a flag on anything that moves. Still have no problem with those that choose to do so. If you think the U.S. is the ONLY country that promotes patriotism, you must be living in a cave.   Look at all the flag waving and displays of patriotism that goes on at soccer matches. Should we put a stop to international sporting events?

Get it through your head that there is nothing wrong with having pride in ones self or ones country. The problem arises when that feeling is the excuse for war. The problem exists when people ignore the suffering that goes on around them.   You can't promote diversity by blocking expressions of patriotisim or you will be doomed to fail. If the left waves a few more flags the message might get across more easily than the flag burners of the 1960's. You can't create change by showing others how different you are from them.

Stop displays of patriotism? What is next?   Do you stop people from celebrating their culture next? Perhaps Sunday church worship is abit over the top and should be banned. Do we really need houses of worship? Perhaps we should burn a few books while we are at it? You don't create change by stopping displays of pride.

Instead of working to create negative change, perhaps you should devote your energies to making a change that creates some good.

Ron

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 03:03 AM

I agree with most of what you say, Ron Olesko, so I will try to clarify the point I was trying to make.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism, per se. There IS something wrong with blind, unthinking patriotism, and I think that may stem from having to learn it by rote.

As far as public displays of patriotism are concerned, I would love to see some that were spontaneous, instead of programmed, choreographed and imposed upon the people attending.

Given that last statement, you should now go and read the first post of this thread.

Good discussion, though!

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM

The only problem PDC is that people attending a sporting event have set traditions and rituals that they go through - and expect. At a baseball game it is the players taking the field, the singing of the national anthem, and the 7th inning stretch. Each local park has their own traditions as well - the appearance of the Phillie Phanatic, the ground crew sweeping the field, a certain video on the scoreboard.   Even though the action on the field is spontaneous, the surrounding events are well choreographed.   Do I agee that it is necessary, personally I don't need it.

The singing of "God Bless America" was simply the owners expression and in some respect - their attempt at providing entertainment.   Yes, you are entitled to boo.   However you pay your money to be entertained and be provided a service. If you don't like what you are getting, leave. What happened at the ballpark however was more than just people complaining about a service. It was a lack of respect and a group of Canadians showing that they suffer from the same racist views at those they complain about.   I'm against this war 100% and I can sympathize with those that feel discomfort. There are other ways that Hussein could have been removed.   However Hussein is beyond a doubt a tyrant and an monster. Would I spit on the Iraqi flag or boo its display? No, the citizens of that country are not at fault.   (Before anyone says it - I am talking about the flag as representing the country, not the political regime.) Accepting and understanding diversity is the root of all the problems we face.

Spontaneous displays of patriotism?   Someone has to start the display for others to follow. If it is an announcer on a loudspeaker or a lone voice in a crowd, what is the difference after all?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 12:35 PM

"The singing of "God Bless America" was simply the owners expression and in some respect - their attempt at providing entertainment."

No. Absolutely not. It was the imposition of American patriotism on a foreign country. It's as simple as that.

Why do you think there was anger over this? Entertainment is "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" during the 7th inning stretch.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM

Sorry, but it is not as simple as that.

If you go to a movie, a play or a concert - you are paying to watch a performance. You are giving the performer the opportunity to present their art - AND their views. What you take away from it is your choice. Your level of participation is up to you.

A baseball game is not a public event in the sense that people pay admission to get in and they are subject to rules and regulations for the event.   A public gathering would be a public park or city center. A ballpark is owned and operated by a specific corporation. You don't have to be there if you don't want to. Ask for your money back if you are offended, but don't sit there and say it is an imposition. You put yourself in the seat and if you get hit by a foul ball or "God Bless America", the choice was yours.

I think there was anger over this for the same reason I stated above. Those fans are not different from those they are protesting against.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM

Ron Olesko, you have contradicted yourself. In a previous post, you said,


"The only problem PDC is that people attending a sporting event have set traditions and rituals that they go through - and expect."

Correct. And in the traditions and rituals of Canadian sport, we do not include "God Bless America" in the 7th inning.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 06:47 PM

I did not contradict myself, you aren't reading my posts or I am not being clear.   Yes, there is a tradition of the 7th inning stretch - but as I said, the atmosphere is created by the owners. They made the 7th inning stretch into the ritual it has become. The same as a movie theater selling popcorn. What does it have to do with the film? Nothing. If the theater owner decides not to sell popcorn, it is their choice. It may be a bad business move however, but it is their choice.

In the traditions of the owners of the game, who run the show, they can do what they want. It may not "sell", but it is their choice.

My point is that the audience is not being forced to be patriotic. The problem I have is one of disrespect. I stand at attention for the Canadian national anthem at sporting events as well as anthems for other countries. Booing the anthem is a sign of disrepect to the people of that country, not the politicians that are running the show.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 09:04 PM

Ron, I don't like disrespect either. However, Booing bombing the anthem nation is IMO a much greater sign of disrespect to the people of that nation, not the politicians who are running the show. (Much more likely to kill them and destroy their environment than the said politicians as well).

Respect is earned, sometimes moment by moment.

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 09:58 PM

"There is nothing wrong with patriotism, per se. There IS something wrong with blind, unthinking patriotism, and I think that may stem from having to learn it by rote."

I think that this was the starting point of our discussion. First, the Pledge and the National Anthem are taught by rote in most US schools. Rote is how children learn whether it be the Ten Commandments, the Pledge of Allegiance or "Trees" by Joyce Kilmer. American History (no doubt biased and often totally misleading) is also taught. We study the Declaration Of Independence, the Constitution, the Gettysburg Address, etc as part of learning about our country, history, and patriotism. We learn about our debt to Greece, Rome, France, and England for our form of government.

Then we go home and our parents guide us with their views of the country and the world. In my opinion, that is where you find the cause for blind patriotism in any country. Conservative parents generally beget conservative children; liberals beget liberals. A child whose father proudly served in the military is far more likely to choose one of the services for a career, in fact, the same service than the child of a lawyer or doctor.


You haven't mentioned your background. If not the US, were you not taught your National Anthem by rote? Has the process made you blindly patriotic? If you are a US citizen, has the process made you blindly patriotic? Look around Mudcat. Only the "home schooled" were not force-fed the Pledge and the Anthem. I don't see blind patriotism. In fact I see widely varying opinions as to what is patriotic.

Freedom of Speech is probably our most precious right. Usually it is mentioned in the context of a country like Iraq or China where it does not exist. How does that translate into not recognizing that other countries offer the same right? It seems as if we are on "All Americans are arrogant" territory.

I personally pity anyone who does not think that his homeland is the best place in the world. It is patriotism which inspires a man to stay and work to improve his country. I have travelled all over the world and seen patriotism wherever I have gone, including countries known to be oppressive.

If you are talking about "My country right or wrong", wrap myself in the flag and blindly follow the leader, that comes from the home not the school. And it certainly does not come from teaching children the basic symbols and tenets of their government.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 10:27 PM

Whooo---EEEEE.......Give that girl some room and let her cool them typing digits!!! Well spoken Sins.

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 03 - 11:31 PM

Daylia, I don't disagree with you. The destruction that is taking place in Iraq is certainly a sign of disrespect, and that is putting it mildly.   Still, I once again question those that would boo a national anthem. Do those handful of Canadians who booed the anthem and "God Bless America" plan to "earn" our respect by showing others that they are just as stupid and racist as those they are booing? Where do you begin to correct the problem if you just perpetuate it?   There is a large segment of the U.S. population that is against this war. When you boo the anthem, you are booing those of us who are trying to stop the war AND who LOVE our country.   You don't create understanding by making the gap even wider.

To me, patriots are people like Abbie Hoffman and Phil Ochs whose actions were driven by their love of this country.   The left has failed to recognize and celebrate their patriotism as they try to do the very thing that created this country. As soon as they wake up to that fact, the message will become clearer.

Sinsull - your words are brilliant.   Thank you!

Ron

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:36 AM

Although I will not reveal my nationality, except to say that I am not American, I will state that I was taught, and my children were taught, that we live in a very good country, and that we are fortunate -- even privileged -- to do so.

We were not taught that our country is "best," which means by default, that other countries are not as good. I've been told my Americans all my life that I should move to the U.S. and enjoy "real freedom."

But I also watched "Bowling for Columbine."

I find it difficult to write what I want to say without sounding nasty, and I'm not trying to be nasty. I really wish that the good, solid, practical middle-of-the-road Americans could form the culture, instead of the extreme left or extreme right, both of which seem to assume untenable positions.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:54 AM

I agree with SINSULL and with you too, Ron. I love my country too, but that certainly doesn't mean I support everything my government does. I doubt I'd have been one of the ones to boo "God Bless America" either. But I understand why people did - no one likes having other people's "patriotism" shoved down their throat, especially in times like these when the reason for the display and encouragement of such patriotism is so blatantly obvious and controversial. Turned-off sports fans are not known for their exemplary manners, by any means.


America's dismissal of the UNSC, refusal to support the International Criminal Court and subsequent attack on Iraq's sovereignty threatens my country too. Are we next up for "liberation" under the "Project for a New American Century"? Are we supposed to sit politely by and tolerate/encourage American patriotism in our country while that happens? Would you "respect" us more if we did? I think noT!

There's a lot that I love about the United States of America. But right now, what I love about it is often obscured by anger/concern over it's dangerous and arrogant foriegn policies and ambitions.

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 09:27 AM

Daylia - I think you are missing my point. I never said anything about suppporting the current policy. We are in agreement that the current actions are wrong. I never said that Canadians should join in the singing of those songs if they feel the way you do. I just feel, strongly, that booing A COUNTRY shows considerable intolerance - and intolerance led to the mindset that created the current situation.   There are other more creative and productive ways of producing change.   As you pointed out - what you love is often "obscured by anger/concern" - when your feelings are obscured nothing positive will come out of it. That is exactly what has created the conservative mindset that has set the political system back by decades.

PDC hit it on the head - it take a middle of the road position to make change.   The far left and the far right set the groundwork, but it is the middleground that will be effective.

Ron

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 10:33 AM

Ron, I do get your point. However, while I agree that "booing A COUNTRY shows considerable intolerance", IMO in extreme situations such as this, a certain amount of "intolerance" is both necessary and unavoidable.

Imagine being forced to watch the biggest bully in the schoolyard annihilate one of the smaller ones - knowing and fearing that YOU might be next up for pummelling, and that no-one else in the schoolyard has come up with either the ways or means to stop the bullying. Would you stand there politely watching, tolerating it all in the name of "respect"? Even cheering it on, or just politely "tolerating" others cheering it on? Or would you do everything in your power to stop the bully?

First by taking every opportunity to let the bully know - in no uncertain terms - exactly how you feel about their behavior.

Current MLB policy has given Canadian fans just such an opportunity to express non-violent discontent. (I consider booing to be non-violent). Surely they knew that when they created the policy, and chose to implement it in Canada's biggest city!

Canada's position on the war in Iraq is no secret. The whole world knows that the majority of Canadians agree wholeheartedly with PM Jean Chretien's decision to withdraw support for America's illegal attack on Iraq. Seems to me MLB could have avoided the displays of "intolerance" if they had respected - and themselves "tolerated" - Canada's position by sparing us this extra display of (nauseating) war-time patriotism, especially on our own turf!

" ... and intolerance led to the mindset that created the current situation" IMO, economic dependence on foreign oil, capitalist greed and imperialist ambitions have MUCH more to do with "the mindset that created the current situation" than intolerance ever did. Intolerance just adds fuel to the flames, after the fact.

Let's find that "middle of the road" real quick! But I wonder, will the "bully" be accessible from there?

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:05 AM

Daylia - Would booing the bully stop the fight? If you stand there booing, the fight will still go on. Using your schoolyard analogy, but when you boo the anthem, you are booing EVERY child in that schoolyard - even those that are trying to stop the fight. In the schoolyard you stop the fight, not demean the particpants.   

I would have no problem if the fans started a "Bush must go" chant or other appropriate anti-war chant after the anthem. The aggressor ISN'T the country, it is the people that are running the war.

Your points about the other factors that led to the war are very true - but I still feel that a basic intolerance is what leads to those factors. If you have an understanding and respect of others, you won't be consumed with greed. You aren't going to solve a global problem until you can solve a basic one.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM

" I would have no problem if the fans started a "Bush must go" chant or other appropriate anti-war chant after the anthem. The aggressor ISN'T the country, it is the people that are running the war."

Right on, Ron! I like the idea of a "counter-chant", especially if it focussed on the people running the war, and not the American people themselves. I'm just not sure that the "mass mentality" of a ballpark is likely to produce such well-thought-out diplomatic expressions of discontent. Maybe a few well-intentioned folk musicians leading the show would help!

Either way, it'll take more than boos or songs or chants to "stop the bully" at this point. If there's a way to stop it at all.   

:(    daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:10 PM

Daylia said "if there's a way to stop it at all."

I really don't think there is. When the biggest guy in the bar has no moral restraints, ethics or anyone to hold him down, he wreaks havoc.

The problem is simply G. W. Bush, a man who lacks the morality, and possibly the intelligence, to run a superpower. He may well be leading the US to its final days as a world power. Consider where all this might be going -- look at the possible scenarios that could be acted out over the next decade. Frightening.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM

Although the following excerpt uses very strong language, and has a very angry tone, it pretty well states what I think Canadians feel about their current relationship with the US, and why "God Bless America" was inappropriate at a baseball game in Canada.

This speech was given at a University in Canada within the last week.



"I want to say a few words about the ill-mannered, obnoxious, arrogant U.S. Ambassador to Canada, Paul Cellucci.

Mr. Cellucci, you ask why Canada doesn't support the United States. Why have we let you down?

Is not an equally justified question, Mr. Cellucci, why have you not supported Canada? Why have you turned your back on us? Why have you and your country proceeded in a reckless, arrogant manner which is 100% guaranteed to substantially increase terrorism and volatility around the world, is guaranteed to destabilize Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, Pakistan (with its nuclear weapons), Turkey, Indonesia, the Philippines, Sudan, Yemen and many other countries?

Why have you launched into this foolhardy aggression that will cause hundreds of millions of Muslims to hate and despise Westerners for generations into the future, with potentially cataclysmic results, for ourselves, for our children and for our grandchildren?

Mr. Cellucci, you ask why Canada doesn't support the United States in your aggressive, "pre-emptive" militarism. Let me give you just a few of the reasons:

First, we are opposed to war when we believe there are viable alternatives to war.

Scores of countries, Canada included, made it clear that they believed that more weapons inspectors and more time would determine whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

We also believed that unless they were invaded, there was no probability of Iraq launching attacks beyond its border.

We also believed that there was no evidence of cooperation between two natural opponents, Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden.

We also believed that your war would kill and injure thousands of innocents.

We also believed that we should not break with clear, long-established international law.... international law which is the fundamental basis of the United Nations.

Unlike your country, Mr. Cellucci, Canada has always been a strong supporter of the United Nations.

Perhaps, Mr. Cellucci, you should look in a mirror and ask why it is that BOTH your NAFTA partners fought off heavy pressure from the White House and your State Department to join your ill-advised war. After all, didn't Mr. Bush once say that the U.S. has no greater friend than Mexico?

Where is it mandated that if your neighbour chooses to go off into a potentially catastrophic war, you must go too, even if we strongly disagree with your reasons and your logic, and if we regard your evidence for the necessity of war with the greatest skepticism?

Mr. Cellucci, the war your country has launched is the very type of war that was so harshly condemned by the Nuremberg War Crime Trials.

How is your attack on Baghdad different from the terrible "day of infamy" that Franklin Delano Roosevelt spoke of after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour, December 7th, 1941? Today, just as we were in the case of the Vietnam War, Canada is on the right side of history in relation to the war on Iraq.

We're also on the side of morality, justice and well-established, principled international law.

And we're also on the side of innocent Iraqi men, women and children, not to mention the young British and American men and women who have been and will be killed both during the war, and for many years AFTER the war is over in the Balkans - like quagmire of ethnic war lords, bigotry and hatred and in the inevitable civil war that will result from the debris of America's so-called and almost humorous, if it wasn't so deadly - "coalition of the willing."

You know, bullied and bribed countries like Cameroon, the Marshall Island, Angola, Guinea, Ethiopia, El Salvador and Eritrea.

Several times in your inappropriate, offensive, threatening speech, Mr. Cellucci, you referred to Canadians as "part of our family."

Mr. Cellucci, this might come as a surprise for you, but we are NOT part of your family and we have no desire to be part of your family. In a public opinion poll for Maclean's magazine, Canadians were asked how they would describe our relations with the U.S. Only one in three said like family or best friends. 65% said cordial but distant or openly hostile. In another Maclean's poll, 72% of Canadians said that they did not want to move closer to the U.S. And, more recently, only 8% said they thought Canada should become more like the U.S... Five times as many opted for less like the U.S.

Mr. Cellucci, some of these poll results were from polls taken soon after September 11th, when world-wide sympathy and support for your country was impressive and enthusiastic. Shouldn't you be asking yourself how you and Mr. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney have managed to squander so much popular support from around the world in so short a time?

Mr. Cellucci, you say that the United States would "be there for Canada" and that Americans are "disappointed and upset that Canada is not supporting the U.S. now."

Please tell me, exactly, where was the United Sates when from 1914 to 1917 tens of thousands of young Canadian men were left dead in the muddy trenches of Europe fighting off the Germans?

And, where was the United Sates from 1939 to late 1941, when Germany was overrunning Europe and the Luftwaffe and the rockets were bombing England and killing tens of thousands of men, women and children during the blitz and the Germans were beginning their roundup of millions of Jews who would be slaughtered in the Nazi concentration camps?

How is it that even though you knew exactly what was happening, your country sat back in the face of so much evil and agony, and waited until the Japanese attacked you before you finally, reluctantly, got involved in the war against the brutal Nazis?

Mr. Cellucci, I'd like to hear your answer to that question.

And, by the way, thank you for "being there" for us when your country invaded us three times, the only country to ever invade Canada.

And, please don't ever lecture us again about going to war. We left 45,000 Canadians in European graves during our defence of liberty and democracy in the Second World War, while for much of the war your isolationists refused to get involved.

Mr. Cellucci, let's be clear. Canadians do not approve of your bad manners, your grossly undiplomatic behaviour, your lecturing us about defence spending, your warnings about the possible linkage of our opposition to war with your trade policies.

Best be careful. If you want to advocate linkage, Canadians may want to consider imposing a 27% tariff on our exports of oil, natural gas and electricity to the United States as a reasonable quid pro quo for your egregious softwood lumber duties. After all, you do believe in reciprocity, don't you?

And, don't for a moment consider it a meaningful warning for you to suggest that Mr. Bush might not want to come to Canada for his official state visit next month.

Canadians well remember the disastrous results for Canadian sovereignty when Ronald Reagan visited the obsequious Brian Mulroney in Quebec City in 1985.

Moreover, we all know why Mr. Bush was or is planning to come to Ottawa. There was only one reason. Not to patch up relations between the two countries, but rather to get your hands on even more of Canada's oil, natural gas and electricity. Best mind your manners, Mr. Cellucci, or the Canadian government might just possibly finally wake up to the fact that Mexico, your other NAFTA partner, firmly refused to sign the ridiculous NAFTA energy and resource-sharing agreement that some of our inept trade negotiators somehow managed to agree to.

Perhaps the Canadian government will realize that we haven't replaced our declining natural gas reserves since 1982. That our major Western sedimentary basin pools are depleting at the rate of 20% a year, that new replacement reserves are proving to be much more expensive to locate, are smaller in size and deplete more rapidly.

Mind your manners Mr. Cellucci, or perhaps Canada will have to walk away from the foolish NAFTA clauses that mean we must continue selling you 62% of our oil and natural gas, even if we Canadians begin to run short ourselves.

Mr. Cellucci, you were greatly upset that Cabinet Minister Herb Dhaliwal made "totally inappropriate remarks" by suggesting that George W. Bush was a failed statesman.

My, my, my. How terribly offensive can one be? How does "failed statesman" compare with Richard Nixon calling Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau an "asshole", or John F. Kennedy calling Prime Minister John Diefenbaker a "son of a bitch" and "a prick", or Lyndon Johnson grabbing Lester Pearson by the collar and shouting "you pissed on my rug" when Pearson suggested a pause in the U.S. bombing of North Vietnam and the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of civilians in the bombing.

It seems to me that being called a failed statesman is not only a mild criticism by comparison, but it is an accurate criticism.

George W. Bush is no "moron". Few Canadians regard Americans as "bastards." Most Canadians like most Americans.

But, not since the days of Richard Nixon and the Vietnam War has there been so much anti-Americanism in the world. The U.S. has antagonized not only the Muslim world, but long-time allies as well. It has walked away from, worked against or failed to support a long list of international agreements supported by Canada and the overwhelming majority of countries - the Land Mines Treaty, the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, the agreement to provide lower cost drugs to developing countries battling AIDS and other diseases, the International Criminal Court, the U.N. protocol on Developing, Producing or Stockpiling Biological or Toxic Weapons, the Small Arms Treaty, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (supported by 191 countries, but not the U.S. or Somalia!).

While it is true that in recent months anti-Americanism in Canada has been increasing, and has increased since the invasion of Iraq and your ill-considered remarks, most of the antipathy is directed not at average Americans, but at George W. Bush and the arrogant, aggressive men and women who surround him as key advisors, the repugnant Donald Rumsfeld, the selfishly-motivated Dick Cheney, Karl Rowe and Paul Wolfowitz and other American hyper hawks who apparently place little value on human lives and have little appreciation for the value of patient international diplomacy.

Mr. Cellucci, Canadians are not impressed by your campaign of intimidation, by threats re the border, by proposed American boycotts of Canadian products.

Perhaps you would much better serve your country if you reminded your fellow citizens that millions of American jobs depend on your exports to Canada, that as every year goes by you will become increasingly dependent on imports of Canadian resources, that for 46 years in a row Canada has been the leading export market in the world for U.S. goods and services, that your exports to Canada every year are greater than your exports to all fifteen European Union countries combined, greater than your exports to Japan, the United Kingdom and Germany put together and more than to all of Latin America and the Caribbean countries combined.

Perhaps, instead of threatening us with economic retaliation for not taking part in your military aggression, you would be wise to remind Americans that by punishing Canadians you would be harming your best customer (not a very bright thing to do), you would be harming the profitable American companies that dominate so much of the Canadian economy, and you would be encouraging more anti-Americanism in Canada.

Mr. Cellucci, both you and your predecessor Gordon Giffin and Senator Hillary Clinton have expressed concerns about the Canada-U.S. border and, in Giffin's words, "skepticism about Canada's reliability on security."

Forget for a moment that Canada has already committed close to an extra $10 billion to security and defence spending since September 11th. Forget too, that Canada has had in place overseas document-screening for air travelers well before the United States even thought of such precautions. Forget that the September 11th terrorists were mostly from your Saudi Arabian friends, and were in the U.S. on visas. Forget that at the time of September 11th there were some six million illegals living in your country, but do consider the following.

There is not one single airport in Canada, not one single flight school that would have been dumb enough to agree to train people from the Middle East how to fly large passenger jet aircraft - people who had no interest in learning how to take off or how to land the aircraft - without quickly reporting the highly suspicious students to the RCMP and/or to CSIS.

Once again, Mr. Cellucci, look in the mirror instead of warning Canadians re security. Increasingly, your CIA, your FBI, your National Security Agency, all with huge multi-billion dollar budgets, make the term "American intelligence" seem like a laughable oxymoron.

And, by the way, have you thought about apologizing to Canadians for all the Canadians killed on September 11th and for your own irresponsible action in appointing your personal driver as head of security at Logan Airport in Boston, where two of the ill-fated aircraft and their hijackers took off from? Don't you think that you owe Canadians an apology?

Shouldn't it be Canadians who need to be concerned about the border, given your poor security record and all the violent nutcases your gun-ridden society breeds, your murderous snipers, your anthrax disseminators, your Timothy McVeighs, your Columbines, your paranoid militia, your aggressive history and behaviour?

Please don't threaten us about the border, because if you do, we might just decide to look more closely at your own records.

And, don't for a single moment believe that Tom d'Aquino, Allan Gotlieb and Brian Mulroney represent majority opinion in Canada. They never have, and they certainly don't now.

The best thing you and your fellow Americans can do in the best interests of future Canadian - American relations, is to listen carefully to every word Mr. d'Aquino, Mr. Gotlieb and Mr. Mulroney say, and then remember that Brian Mulroney left office as the least-popular prime minister in Canadian history, and that most Canadians do not subscribe to the craven policies of Gotlieb and d'Aquino.

Canada, you and Mr. Bush may find it hard to believe, is not yet an American colony, and we have no intention of becoming one. You would best serve your country by making that clear in Washington.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM

PDC - Thanks for making my earlier point. Whoever made this speech (you failed to give credit), the person was pointing the remarks at Cellucci and Bush, not America. That is what it should be, not booing an anthem or a flag.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM

I agree with you, Ron Olesko, with one tiny exception: God Bless America is not your anthem -- when the SSB is played prior to games in Canada, we stand respectfully in silence, as you do when OC is played in the US.

God Bless America has taken on a rather sour tinge for a lot of people since 9/11, because it has been overused, I think.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM

Again, sorry. I couldn't give credit for the speech because I didn't have permission.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:56 PM

PDC - you are absolutely right about God Bless America, my apologies for using "national anthem" in my comments. I did not mean to mix the two together - that is a huge difference.   I think this discussion has been mixing the two and I apologize.

I never cared for G.B.A. either. Was it the N.Y. Rangers that used the Kate Smith version as a rally song?   I'm not sure if I would boo it though.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:37 PM

Whoo!! Are you old enough to remember Kate Smith? Definitely, GBA was HER song, and she was loud enough in any stadium to not need a microphone! (The following statement is politically incorrect.) She may be the one who inspired the phrase, "It ain't over till the fat lady sings."

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:21 PM

While we're on the subject of arrogance, how much arrogance does it take to blockade a peaceful ferryboat, which is what a lot of overexcited Canadian fishermen did to the Alaska State Ferry a few years ago.

The Alaskans (Americans) took it quietly, didn't try to bust their way out, let the situation calm down and the Canadian furies spend themselves out until the ferry was allowed to go its way.

Then sent a bill.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:23 PM

Kate Smith donated all her royalties for "God Bless America" to the Girl Scouts. Nice lady. Very sad life.

So now it's a music thread.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:44 PM

I remember her from her later years!!    I think it was the NY Rangers that used a recording of her singing the song during her games.

I do remember that my father was a big fan of hers.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 06:53 PM

I remember seeing her on TV live.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM

It was the Flyers, not the Rangers. Hockey is not in my blood! :)

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:09 PM

Pdc, I just saw that speech. Whoever made it is an amazing person. To finally hear someone who actually understands this sensitive and 'dangerous' and can speak that articulately blows my mind. Needless to say, whoever it was, they won't be going into politics (I guess)

Thank YOU

Rick

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM

To Robomatic:

For what reason did Canadian fisherpeople block an Alaskan ferryboat?

To Rick Fielding:

Thank you. I was leery of posting that speech, but just had to, because it really says it all.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM

pdc - thank you, very much, for the speech.

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 10:28 PM

To Daylia:

You are welcome! I'm very pleased and relieved by the reaction of most people to that speech -- I wasn't sure what to expect.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 06:30 AM

I agree with every word of that speech. Thanks, pdc.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 06:01 AM

Ron, I thought EVERY Philadelphian was a hockey fan in '74 and '75 (and '76, of course, until the end). I could hear the roar from the Spectrum 100 miles away in Hershey. For the '75 final, my roommate's friend dressed all in Flyers orange and played an original Kate Smith recording of God Bless America--and this was just to watch it on TV!

Thanks for posting that speech, pdc. Too bad most Americans won't get to hear it.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 07:55 AM

So I bet a lot of you remember Kate Smith's TV show. Her theme song was not GBA, but "When the Moon Comes Over The Mountain." Later in life I had this terrifying vision of Kate Smith's ass rising above the mountains.

She was also a part of one of Lenny Bruce's best bits.....Talking about racial integration and racist attitudes, he said, "Okay, so you'd never cross racial lines. Yeah....so here's your choice....You can have a black woman or a white woman.....The black woman is Lena Horne and the white woman is Kate Smith....Now choose.......Yeah, right Jack........"

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Hester
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 05:57 PM

Paul S. wrote:

>>>I am embarrassed for the behaviour of my government. Historically, Canada has always been right there to support the US and Britain, but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore. <<<

I often hear this argument lately, but, um ... hello? ... what about Vietnam? We absolutely did NOT support the United States in that war. Or have you forgotten?

Hester ... a Canadian who wants nothing to do with Bush's war-mongering and is glad that ol' Chretien refused to participate in an illegal war. He's shown an amazing amount of backbone for a fence-sitting wishy-washy Liberal. After doing basically dick-all for 40 years, he finally made a good decision.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 06:04 PM

I had forgotten that Spaw. And the tacky set with the giant moon. As to your nightmare...SIGH! poor lady fought her weight problem her whole life and was abused for it. Crappy agent screwed her over too.

I remember the Lenny Bruce line too and some family members being disgusted at the question. I was too little to dare to ask for an answer.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:33 PM

They want to play "God Bless America" during the seventh inning strech in the Great American Game (which was invented in Canada) then between the second and third period of every hockey game I suggest that "The Maple Leaf Forever" be played to support a truely Canadian game full of Canadian players.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 10:43 PM

Okay fine.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 01:05 AM

Oh no, Ron, NOT fine!

In days of yore
From Britain's shore,
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain!

The maple leaf, our emblem dear,
The maple leaf forever!
God save us all, and heaven bless
The maple leaf forever!!

Ewww!

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM

Well maybe a song about maple syrup would please everyone. 'Tis the season, too! I'll try to tap into one today ... ;)

kendall, Joe - thanks for the article. I'm wondering whose words those are, kendall?

And I'd like to remember the Canadian soldiers who were killed in Iraq during the last week or so - a 21yr old who'd joined the US Marines while living with his mother in the States, and one of the Canadian soldiers on exchange with the US military.

Thanks for the link re Canada and the Iranian hostages, JtS.

daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 07:43 AM

Oops, those thanks to kendall, Joe and JtS belong on another thread - sorry bout that!

It's alright to remember the Canadian soldiers who lost their lives in Iraq here as well, though.

Peace - daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Hester
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 10:28 AM

Hi, Daylia:

Let's not forget the Canadian humanitarian worker who lost his life in Iraq this week. Vatche Arslanian, who was working for the International Red Cross, was caught in the crossfire and killed:

CBC report

Now, his was a Canadian contribution to be proud of!

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM

Thanks, Hester.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 10:55 AM

Okay I've tapped into the poetic, spiritual nature of Maple Syrup and found this wonderful piece of writing in Jan Carlsson-Bull's sermon "What's Left". I post it here for your sweet'n'sticky pleasure, remembering that maple syrup is truly a shared "Ameri-Can" blessing ...


"Maple syrup is a "sacred residue" that takes a lot of time and labor and fiscal outlay to produce. Yet it all starts as liquid called to life in a tree. Maple syrup is the sweet residue of a long process, not unlike what we might experience at year's end, not unlike that "distilled sweetness" entering the heart in Seamus Heaney's "… Dream of Solstice."

"Like somebody who sees things when he's dreaming
And after the dream lives with the aftermath
Of what he felt, no other trace remaining.

So I live now, for what I saw departs
And is almost lost, although a distilled sweetness
Still drops from it into my inner heart.

The distilled sweetness, the sacred residue, is what's left after it all."

May this year's "sacred residue" be sweet indeed, on both sides of the border, despite all the bitterness of the last few months!

Peace - daylia

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM

GWB has now "postponed" his May 5th trip to Canada, citing Canada's war stance; the so-called "final straw" was Canada's refusal to turn over to the US any Iraqis they happen to pick up on their warships patrolling the Gulf. Instead, the Canadians will turn them over to an international tribunal.

Not to be too unpleasant, but GWB seems to vacillate between petulance and smirking, doesn't he?

Given America's blatant contravention of the Geneva Convention at Guantanamo (sp?), I can't imagine why anyone would turn prisoners of war over to the US.

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM

I think he's going to Denmark instead since they contributed a submarine and he was told that the Danes would sing GBA during the 7th inning stretch.........if they had a 7th inning stretch............if they had a game against a US team................if they had a baseball team.........

Ain't this thread about crapped out?

Spaw

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 01:12 PM

Hey, Spaw, aren't we all?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:11 AM

Probably, but I was just wondering how many Canadians even know the words to "God Bless America". I don't. Hell, I'm not even sure I know the proper currently-authorized words to "Oh Canada" anymore, since they've been changed a few times (and definitely not the ones en Francais).

And as a performing musician, I know how hard it is to get a Canuck audience to sing along to any song, even when they know the friggin' words. Any kind of audience participation is uncommon. They'd be lucky even to get the boos.   ;)

Interesting article, pdc, but a bit too long-winded and preachy for my tastes. Cripes, how many scabs do they wanna pick anyway?

Subject: RE: God Bless America at Jays Game
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM

Cluin - last night I watched the opening ceremonies in Vancouver before the Canucks played the St. Louis Blues. There was a lot of cheering during the "The Star-Spangled Banner" (which was a relief), but even more heartwarming was when the singer (who was that tenor with the golden voice!) fell silent during the second verse of "O Canada". The crowd carried on a cappella with rising enthusiasm, and by the end of the anthem the whole stadium was on it's feet resounding with cheers.
They certainly knew the words, anyway!

The solemn respect given to both anthems by the players themselves was good to see as well - some looked like they were at prayer even. Not a bad idea, on either side of the border!

Watching that, I couldn't help but think that the NHL might have something to teach MLB re the expression of patriotism at sporting events!

daylia