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BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization
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Subject: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:05 PM I wonder when the peoples of 'Old Europe' will realize that the Islamic terrorists hate democracy and Western Civilizaton? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050922/ap_on_re_eu/france_terrorism;_ylt=AogPLc5mVUMsl.k7IELNjjys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE- And btw, you're welcome for killing so many of them in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:32 PM For every one we killed, rarelamb, we created a dozen more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,Takamine Yamaha Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:28 PM I certainly hope Guest rarelamb that before they are killed they have the pleasure dining on you served up on lamb kabobs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:32 PM LOL. Well, based on the thread about eating dogs and cats, I would be fresh and tasty :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: ard mhacha Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:46 PM Terrorists have targeted Eastern civilization, namely Bush and Blair, and aren`t they the sorry boys. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Don Firth Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:47 PM We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them all to Christianity! —Ann Coulter Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Ebbie Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:47 PM Ewwwwwwww. Do you smoke? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Rapparee Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:07 PM Not right now, Ebbie, but if you'd dropped by a few moments ago you could have seen me on fire.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:14 PM Within the last two weeks, Iranian leaders said they will spread their nuclear weapons technology to "all of our Moslem brothers". How cute. Anybody worried out there in the "Blame America First" crowd? Here is link from origional post: origional article In the intesest of balance, here is a book review: "DINING WITH TERRORISTS" BY PHIL REES |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:30 PM The "blame America first crowd" predicted that after the US invaded and occupied Iraq, there would be a drastic increase in the number of other countries who would be acquiring and/or attempting to acquire nuclear weapons (in self-defense). And they were right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:34 PM CarolC, Iran and Korea already had nuclear programs. Pakistan, and India had bombs already. Who else are you refering to? Libya gave up it's program, AFTER the US showed that it would enforce UN resolutions, instead of just having conferences and ignoring treaty violations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:44 PM beardedbruce - I was responding to this from pdq... Within the last two weeks, Iranian leaders said they will spread their nuclear weapons technology to "all of our Moslem brothers". How cute. Anybody worried out there in the "Blame America First" crowd? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Sep 05 - 03:48 PM I do not think that refers to countries so much as ideological groups. But OK... And I thought that Iran had only "peaceful" intentions? ( NON-WEAPON nuclear program) Are you saying that they told the European negotiators a lie?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: ard mhacha Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:25 PM The USA have never had a second thought about using weapons of mass destruction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:27 PM ard mhacha, I challange you to prove your assertation. We ( the US) has thousands of WMD- and have used 2, in wartime, after a lot of thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:39 PM Are you saying that they told the European negotiators a lie?! I have no idea. Maybe they changed their minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: ard mhacha Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:40 PM Agent Orange in Viet Nam,and the two Atom Bombs in Japan, wartime was a poor excuse with the war almost over and Truman and co waiting anxiously to see how their great new models worked out, war mongering scum need little excuse, your country is hated throughout the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM Ard, Agent orange was a defoliant, not a WMD. Bad side effects, but NOT a WMD by anyone's definition. As for the two bombs on Japan, there have been threads on this already. If you want to think it was not needed, feel free- just don't expect the majority of the world to agree with you. If the US is so hated, why are so many people trying to come here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: ard mhacha Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM The citizens of Viet Nam are still dying from the after effects of Agent Orange, if that`s not a weapon of mass desruction then Bush has a brain. There are people who have visited the US quite recently, but certainly not to see the sights. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:57 PM http://nti.org/f_wmd411/f1a1.html The citizens of several countries are still dying of asbestos poisoning from Canadian exports, but will you call that a WMD? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: ard mhacha Date: 22 Sep 05 - 05:09 PM Agent Orange was used specifically to poison the horticultural system in Viet Nam, much different from the Canadian asbestos exports. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: artbrooks Date: 22 Sep 05 - 05:30 PM Agent Orange was used specifically to eliminate cover and concealment in areas used by the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong as base camps, on known and suspected supply routes and on the perimeters of US and allied installations in Vietman and Korea. It was never intentionally used on "the horticultural system," although it cannot be denied that some of it probably spread to active cropland through the effects of the wind. It would never have been used at all if anyone but its manufacturers had known of its long-term effects. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Peace Date: 22 Sep 05 - 06:29 PM 'Within the last two weeks, Iranian leaders said they will spread their nuclear weapons technology to "all of our Moslem brothers".' I wouldn't doubt that is already a fait accompli. It likely happened when the USSR broke up. There are Muslim-dominated states and they hda (have) nuclear technology. Besides, how to make a fission device has been public knowledge for decades. It's the material to 'fission' that has so far been difficult to acquire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:04 PM Jimmy Carter's Trail of Disaster Christopher Ruddy Monday, May 13, 2002 Jimmy Carter is off this week to save Cuba. With Carter on the loose, the American public needs to watch out. It seems that almost wherever he goes and whatever positions he pushes, Jimmy Carter leaves a wake of devastation and disaster. Carter, we should note, has been cozying up to North Korea for years. He helped the U.S. and the communist country come to agreement during the Clinton years to defuse a tense situation over North Korea's nuclear weapons program. Under the wacko deal Carter arranged, the U.S. would stop complaining about Korea's nuclear weapons program as long as the U.S. gave aid to North Korea and helped the communists build more modern nuclear reactors. The U.S. was well on the path to doing this when the new Bush administration sounded the alarm and immediately stopped the cockamamy plan dead in its tracks. North Korea was not cooperating with the U.S. to stop its weapons program, but we should continue helping them to build nuclear reactors. Make sense? Of course not. But that's Jimmy Carter for you. It's also Jimmy Carter the hypocrite. Carter has always claimed to be the champion of human rights worldwide. Yet North Korea is one of the most, if not the most, repressive regimes on the planet. The Stalinist nation is headed by a young madman named Kim Jong-il. Kim likes to watch American movies like "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" and then act out his fantasies on his own citizenry. Millions of North Koreans are starving at any given time. Does Carter have much to say about this? Of course not. North Korea is an enemy of the U.S., so Carter goes easy on them. When he met Kim, Carter didn't criticize him – he kissed him! But there is nothing new here. The media would have us forget Jimmy Carter's presidential record. But I won't. Remember Carter's human rights program, where he demanded the Shah of Iran step down and turn over power to the Ayatollah Khomeini? No matter that Khomeini was a madman. Carter had the U.S. Pentagon tell the Shah's top military commanders – about 150 of them – to acquiesce to the Ayatollah and not fight him. The Shah's military listened to Carter. All of them were murdered in one of the Ayatollah's first acts. By allowing the Shah to fall, Carter created one of the most militant anti-American dictatorships ever. Soon the new Iranian government was ransacking our embassy and held hostage its staff for over a year. Only President Reagan's election gave Iran the impetus to release the hostages. I believe Carter's decision to have the Shah fall is arguably the most egregious U.S. foreign policy mistake of the last 50 years. [Former President Bush's decision to allow Saddam Hussein to stay in power is a close second.] With the Shah gone, the whole region was destabilized. The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan; no doubt a direct link to the rise of the Taliban can be traced to this invasion. Iraq also took advantage of the Shah's departure to invade Iran. A long war followed that helped make Saddam's Iraq a great Middle Eastern power. And decades after Carter's ignominious act, Iran is still bent on destroying America. President Bush named it one of the three nations in the "axis of evil." Iran is developing both nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver these weapons to its enemies. We can thank Jimmy Carter for all of this. Since Carter left the presidency, he has had little to say about the human rights abuses in Iran. Why should he? Iran opposes the U.S. Instead, he has focused his attention on Israel, America's lone democratic ally in the Mideast. Recently, Carter suggested that the U.S. should cut off aid to Israel, so angry was he after Israel sought to defend itself in the wake of suicide bombings. Fair enough. But what has Carter said about Arab or Muslim countries that have had long records of human rights abuse – Syria or Libya or Iran or Iraq? Not much. One reason may be money. As NewsMax's Dave Eberhart reported recently, Carter and his Carter Center foundation are recipients of millions of dollars of Arab money. So I give Carter his due. At least he is not a hypocrite in one sense. He is good to the dictators and butchers who give him money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Don Firth Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:17 PM Just a thought to make your day: About three weeks after Hiroshima was bombed, Life Magazine (10¢ off the newsstand at the time) had a two-page spread, complete with diagrams, on how the atomic bomb was put together. All it takes is a couple of pieces of fissionable material that add up to a wad about the size of a grapefruit (critical mass) and some method of slapping them together real quick. Once you had the fissionable material, any competent mechanic could put one together. At the age of fourteen, I read the article and studied the diagrams with considerable fascination There it was, for the price of one thin dime. And they hanged the Rosenbergs for allegedly giving away "nuclear secrets." As far as fissionable material is concerned, between the United States and the former Soviet Union, hundreds and hundreds of pounds of the stuff, perhaps tons (bomb grade), is unaccounted for. I'm definitely not a "blame America first" type, but it does strike me that in this modern world, it really doesn't pay to go out of your way to make other people really hate your guts (no matter how righteous you deem yourself to be). Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:43 PM Western Civilisation? What a good idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 22 Sep 05 - 07:49 PM The Shah was a ruthless dictator, and so are the Saudi Royal Family. But they were/are our kind of ruthless dictators. Once we bought them, they stayed bought. And that's why we like them. Had Saddam stayed bought (after we bought him), we would probably still like him, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:02 PM Isn't it interesting that folks come up with on-the-run redefinations of WMD's... When Bush wanted to invade Iraq I trememeber vividly the picture of what looked like a kid's odle plane and being told it was a WMD.... 30,000 bombs later and I'm beiong told that the US has only used a WMD twice??? Like did I miss something in the tranlation??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:15 PM OK, CarolC, here is the timeline of Saddam Hussein's life. Please point out the following: 1. When he was a nice guy. 2. When the US forced him to become a thug. 3. When we bought him. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saddam Hussein 28 April 1937 Saddam Hussein was born in the village Al-Awja near Tikrit, Iraq, north of Baghdad. He was sent to live with his maternal uncle soon after he was born. During his early years, reports have linked Saddam to the murders of a school teacher and/or a cousin. 1955 Saddam moved to Baghdad. 1956 Saddam joined the Arab Baath Socialist Party. 1957 Saddam was denied the admission to the Baghdad Military Academy. He joins the underground Baath Socialist Party. 1958 Saddam married Sajida. He is arrested for killing his brother-in-law and spends six months in prison. 7 October 1959 Saddam was a member of a Baath assassination team which attempted to assassinate the Prime Minister of Iraq, Gen. Abdel-Karim Kassem. Shot in the leg by the prime minister's bodyguard, Saddam fled to Syria, then Egypt. 25 February 1960 After being tried in absentia, Saddam was sentenced to death. 1962 Saddam completed his secondary studies. 1962-1963 Saddam studied law in Cairo, but he did not complete it. 8 February 1963 Saddam returned to Iraq after the Ramadan Revolution. November 1963 The new regime was ousted by a military coup. 14 October 1964 Saddam was arrested for charges accusing him of rebelling against the regime. He remained in prison until his escape in 1967. September 1966 While in prison, Saddam was elected the Deputy Secretary General of the Baath Party Leadership. 1967 Saddam escaped from prison. July 1968 Saddam participated in a coup in which Baathists and army officers overthrew the Iraqi regime. 1968 Saddam graduated from the College of Law. 30 July 1968 Saddam took charge of internal security after Baath Party consolidated its power and authority passed to the Revolutionary Command Council, led by Saddam's cousin, Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr. 9 November 1969 Saddam was elected the Vice-chairman of the Revolution Command Council. 1 June 1972 Saddam nationalized all of the oil companies in Iraq. 1 July 1973 Saddam was dubbed the rank of Lieutenant general and the Rafadain Order, First Class. 11 March 1974 Saddam helped to implement the Autonomy Law for Iraqi Kurdish Citizens. The Kurds were forced to go to Iran. 1 February 1976 Saddam was awarded M.A. Honors Degree in Military Sciences late 1970s As Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr's health failed, Saddam emerged as the de facto leader of Iraq. 8 October 1977 Saddam was elected the Assistant Secretary General of the National Pan-Arab Leadership of the Baath Party. 1979 Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr negotiated with Syria to unify Iraq and Syria. Syrian President Hafez al-Assad would have become deputy leader of the new union, leaving Saddam's political future uncertain. 16 July 1979 Saddam forced Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr to resign and was elected as the President of Iraq and as the Chairman of Revolution Command Council. 17 July 1979 Saddam was promoted to the rank of Field Marshall. 22 July 1979 Saddam convened an assembly of Baath leaders. A list of potential opponents to Saddam was read. Those on the list were branded disloyal, removed from the assembly, and shot. 8 October 1979 Saddam was elected Deputy Secretary General of the Pan-Arab Leadership of the Baath party. 4 September 1980 Saddam initiated a war with Iran, seeking to obtain Iranian oil reserves. 1982 Former President Bakr died mysteriously. It was widely suspected that Saddam was involved. 30 July 1983 Saddam was dubbed the Revolution Order, First Class. 1984 Saddam was awarded an Honorary Doctorate in Law from the University of Baghdad. 1987-1988 Saddam launched the Anfal Campaign against the Kurds. 180,000 Kurds disappeared and 4,000 villages were destroyed. 28 April 1988 Saddam was dubbed the Order of the People. 28 March 1988 The Kurdish town, Halabaja, was gassed. 5,000 people were killed and 10,000 were injured. 8 August 1988 Saddam agreed to a cease-fire with Iran. Iraq won the conflict. August 1988 Many Kurdish villages on the Turkish border were gassed. Thousands of people died. 2 August 1990 Saddam seized Kuwait. 16 January 1991 The United States began bombing Baghdad in response to Saddam not turning over Kuwait. February 1991 The Persian Gulf War ended. President George Bush of the United States declared a cease-fire. March 1991 Saddam's regime crushes a Kurdish revolt in northern Iraq and a Shiite revolt in the south. 1993 Saddam broke the peace terms from the end of the Persian Gulf War. The United States bombed Iraq as a result. 29 September 1998 The United States passed the Iraq Liberation Act. The Act stated that they wanted to remove Saddam Hussein from office and replace the government with a democratic institution. October 1998 Saddam failed to comply with the united Nations weapons inspectors. This action led to a four-day bombing raid by the United States. 16-19 December 1998 The United Nations pulled their workers out of Iraq. The United States and the United Kingdom began air raids on Iraq called Operation Desert Fox. 1999 Throughout the year continual air strikes hit Iraq. 2000 It is reported that Saddam has used humanitarian funds to build presidential palaces and for other personal enrichment items. 2002 The United States began to initiate a plan to overthrow Saddam. 8 November 2002 UN Security Council resolution threatens "serious consequences" if Iraq refuses to disarm. 27 November 2002 Saddam allows the United Nations weapons inspectors to return to Iraq. 7 December 2002 Iraq delivers to the United Nations a declaration denying it has weapons of mass destruction. January 2003 Other Arab leaders in the middle east request that Saddam Hussein go into exile to avoid war with the United States. February 2003 Saddam Hussein interviewed with news reporter, Dan Rather. Saddam said that he would not go into exile and that he would not surrender in a possible war. He claimed that Iraq does not have any weapons that go against UN resolutions. 17 March 2003 United States President George W. Bush gave Saddam an ultimatum. Either he leave Iraq within 48 hours with his sons or the United States would pursue military action. 18 March 2003 Iraqi leadership rejects US ultimatum. 19 March 2003 The United States and other coalition forces started Operation Iraqi Freedom in an effort to remove Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. 24 March 2003 Saddam delivered a defiant speech on Iraqi television trying to rally his troops and unite his people in the war against the United States. End of March 2003 Saddam Hussein made various television speeches that had been pre-recorded. Many analysts believed that they had been recorded before the war even started, because he did not reference any of the specific war activities. 4 April 2003 Saddam made a televised appearance and finally referenced specific details of the war. He called on the Iraqis to hit the coalition forces hard. 9 April 2003 Jubilant crowds greet US troops in Baghdad, then topple a large statue of Saddam. 7 May 2003 A tape thought to be Saddam Hussein was made public. It called on the Iraqi citizens to reject the visitors and to overhtorw the Americans. July 2003 US forces raid locations in Mosul and Tikrit, then report missing Saddam by "a matter of hours." 13 December 2003 Saddam is captured at 8:30 p.m. in Adwar, ten miles south of Tikrit, while hiding in a specially prepared "spider hole." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,petr Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:37 PM why should the US (and a couple of other countries) get to have nuclear weapons and no one else? THe answer is that any country that has nuclear weapons cannot be attacked by the US, and thereby threatens the neocons' long term plan of US military dominance, which is why Bush went after IRaq and not NOrth Korea. A fact not lost on Kim Jong Il, which is why N Korea suddenly announced they have the bomb (even though its probably a bluff). also why the big fuss over Iran, is it a threat just because a muslim country might acquire nuclear weapons? The US is not particularly worried about Pakistan? Even though Musharaf is president (for life) thanks to a military coup. And by the way hes the one who immediately pardoned pakistani physicist AQ Khan the nuclear black marketer, and never allowed the US to even interview him. oh yeah, and Agent orange whatever its intended purpose- is still responsible for hundreds of deformed babies in Vietnam each year. How would Americans feel if it was their kids that were like that as a result of aerial spraying by an enemy nation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Peace Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM Long bloody article, but worth the read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:17 PM Yo, pdq... Didn't happen to see to much in yer "War 'n Peace" length cut-n-paste that had much to do with the United States providing Saddm with chemicals to use on the iranians, or the pescific intellegence to get them chemicals where the United SDates wanted them delivered... Do you deny this??? Or Donnie Rumsfelf going to Irag and presenting Saddam, ***after*** he had supposedly gased the Kurds and presented Saddam with a numbetr of gifts from the United States, icluding a gold plated M-16, or whatever gun was presented... Do you deny this??? Yeah, you wnat to put forth yer little Karl Robe cut-n-paste time line that leaves out lots of, oh, minor details... And then becuase you have so courageously hit what ever button it takes to use up lots of bandwidth with Karl Rove's PR crap you feel all warm and fuzzy since you think, "Ahhhh, I've got 'um now!!!" Try some independent thought, pal... Other folks cut-n-pastes are less impressin' than watching grass grow... Hey, I'm sure you have a real mind... Use it and leave the cut-n-paste alone... Ahhhh, now waht do ***you*** have to say in rsponse to the questions I have asked... Might wanta actually check out what the US did fir Saddam before answering this 'cause you ain't dealing with kids here... Lots of us, including myself, been 'round and rememebr some of the stuffr the US did with Saddam, and it ain't no purdier than what Karl Rove gave you to cut-n-paste... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: curmudgeon Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:24 PM PDQ has posted a long attack on Jimmy Carter by one, Christopher Ruddy. Has anyone else Googled this nut? What's your source for Saddam's timeline, PDQ, Pat Robertson? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Don Firth Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:32 PM Rather than these asininely long "cut-and-pastes," I would much prefer a simple link, or if you don't know how to do links, type in the URL. That way, it doesn't take up bandwidth here on Mudcat, and people will know where it came from! Some web sites are more credible than others. I tend to regard lack of proper credit for a citation as a possible atttempt to obscure the source. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM Bobert, my post is factual, nothing more. Facts are what people are supposed to use to form their opinions. As long as you start with opinions you will always be backwards. Or upside down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Don Firth Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:38 PM I sense a great disturbance in The Force! —Obi Wan Kenobi Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Donuel Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:42 PM Fundamentalist Muslims that sprung up under the Egyptian Alahwi (now bin Laden's right hand man) fully intend upon destroying as much of Western Civilization as they possibly can. The time line is still quite flexible. There are no clear quid pro quos or political compromises that will deter this religious war. One possible exception would be the destruction of Israel. To think otherwise would be delusional. The only thin line this fundamentalist war has yet to cross is the concept of measured reciprocity. You know, blowing up 8 or 9 of our nuke plants on any given Tuesday. Once that line is crossed there is no retreat from a full scale nuclear response that will ignore all concepts of the innocent and lay waste to much of the Middle east, with strategic exceptions of oil fields. The sins of US imperialism have of course played a part in the evolution of the radical Muslim jihadists but the culture of religious fundamentalist war has progressed far beyond the issues of American aggression and numerous regime changes. There is nothing the US can put on the table to assuage any radical jihadist cleric. All we have left is our threat of nuclear annihilation. This of course does not play well in Iran. Pakistan can dole out their 20 nukes to destroy American port cities should a trigger happy American President decide to show them who is boss. Do not forget who is downwind of all the Middle East nuclear fallout. China could simply decide the US has outlived its usefulness. With our demonstration of how good our NORAD is and how well we respond to emergencies they have a reasonably good chance of taking their best shot and hope our submarines are not successful in achieving total Armageddon. I'm sorry folks for bringing up the reality of a US nuclear response but it is now continually on a hair trigger. An animal or a war lord administration is always most dangerous when it is wounded. When our war lord says everything is on the table, "they" mean everything and everyone. When you have a multi bilion dollar bunker your thinking about such matters gets skewd and is not unthinkable at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:52 PM Yeah right. pdq... Problem is that you wouldn't know if they are facts or not because all you do is just hit a button and transfer someone else's blog to Mudcat... Have you researched everything found in these so called facts?? I doubt it.. Have you applied independent thinking to these cut'n=pastes?? I doubt it?? Did you answer the questions I asked of you??? No!!!! Why??? I guess yer waiting fir a cut-n=paste reponese... You are hiding, my friend... Step out from behind the skirts of yer bloggers... Hey, I read lots o' stuff including the back pages of the Wsahington Post, which is where the real truth usually get's buried... Been doing it all my life... I know what goes down... Guess what... I got 'bout 7000 posts down here in Mudville and have gone up against Teribus, and Troll, and lots of folks and never used one single cut-n-post... If you can't even argue yer case then stick to above the line and discuss the best tunin' fir "Puff the Magic Dragon"... No offense intended but if you think that Bush is so wonderful don't be ashamed to blow a horn fir him... Is that askin' too much?? Now, just between you and me why dio you think that Don Rumsfeld went to Iraq after Saddam supposedly gased the Kurds, shook the man's hand, and gave him a bunch of gifts from the then president, Ronnie Reagan??? Any clues... Won't find 'em in yir cut-n-posts so this may involve some independent research and thought... Sorry to do it to ya'... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:00 PM "Western Civilisation? What a good idea" very good post to this thread McGrath!!! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:00 PM If facts bother you that much, just ignore them. Just bluster your opinions. No skin off my nose. I've been attacked by Lupus Wrecks, blackadder and Turd. Don't care one way or another if you join the list. Yawn... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:05 PM What the hell is (or who is) a Lupus Wrecks?? sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:29 PM So that is yer final answer, pdq, to w3hy Don Rumsfelf took gifts to Saddam afetr he gassed the kurds... If I werte yer debating coach youd get a well earned "F"... You have reduced yerself to yet another Martin Gibson who rather than stand in there and answer the tought questions resortys to neme callin'... Nice work... Not, not really.... Purdy pathetic... Hey, I gave you a chance... You chose the name callin' game... What do you think the rest of us here are in Mudcat, abunch of dumbasses??? No disrespect intended here but I'd suggest you start reading more stuff than what ever it is that you read... Reminds me of a line from Steve Earles "Devil's Right Hand" "My first pistol was a cap 'n ball Colt Shoot fast as lightnin' but loaded might slow I soon found out Get you into trouble But wouldn't get you out..." Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:34 PM Steve Earle is a drooling moron. Must be one of your heros, eh Bobert? You are wasting some good stash tonight on this crap? Sad, really sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:44 PM Steve Earl is pretty damned good! I especially like his song about John Walker. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:51 PM No, after this attempted exchange of ideas here tonight, pdq, you seem to be more the "droolin' moron"... And yeah, just fri the record, Steve Earle is one of my heros... He tells the stories of the workin' class... And he hit yer little life right on the head in the lyrics I repeated above... Tonight you have reduced yer own credibility to that of Martin Gibsons... Sorry, I gave you outs... You just plowed the Titanic into the iceburg... Have a nice swim... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:53 PM "Have a nice swim." .... it'll be a pretty cold lonely swim. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:01 PM Here is a quick test for your troubled brain (hint, you have already flunked it once): According to Amnesty International, Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 of his own people. He started a war with Iran that killed an additional 1.3 million people. Total dead at the hands of Saddam Hussein, 1.3 million. He was in office from 1979 through 2003, a total of 24 years. Now for the test. How many people did he kill per day???? Answer: I get 149 dead per day, but then I have more functional brain cells left than you, eh Bobert? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:08 PM Correction, the Iran-Iraq War killed 1.1 million, according to Amnesty International. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Peace Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:09 PM Screw the brain cells. I have a CALCULATOR! According to Amnesty International, Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 of his own people. He started a war with Iran that killed an additional 1.3 million people. Total dead at the hands of Saddam Hussein, 1.3 million. He caused the deaths of 1.6 million people. Divide by 24 (years) then divide by 365.25 and the number is TADA 185.5 per day. There has never been any question that Hussein killed lots of people. I think the sonuvabitch should have been head-shot years ago. However, he is OUT of Iraq now and the US is STILL there. It's also time for the US to leave. They just ain't helpin' matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Peace Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:11 PM Damn. Now I have to revise my figures. OK, here they are: 1.4 million/24/365.25=159.7 deaths per day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:15 PM If the answer is only 1 ... it would still be a tragedy. 1 human life lost in the numbers. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:27 PM At least 70 Americans are murdered each day in the US, mostly by street gangs. Each one killed has a grieving mother. They get zero time on the evening news, Cindy Sheehan gets several weeks. Yep, some of us must be more equal than others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: dianavan Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:31 PM pdq - I know an Iranian soldier who was gassed by the Iraqi soldiers. He was a prisoner of war as well. He says that the govt. of Iraq was corrupted by the U.S. and the govt. of Iran were fanatics. Although he has no respect for middle-east war lords, he hates the U.S. even more because it was the U.S. who provided the weapons and created the war. So yeah, the beat goes on - Terorists target the West and the West target the terrorists. Thats why its called war. Unfortunately, thanks to U.S. intervention in Middle East politics, alot more people are going to die in Iraq. Thanks to the U.S., what is happening in Iraq has become a civil war. Isn't that what the U.S. wanted all along? Genocide comes in all shapes and sizes. Why do the killing yourself when you can get them to kill each other? So we are back to square one. Iraqis killing Iraqis. What has the U.S. solved, pdq? Seems to me they have only succeeded in killing more innocent people. If it looks like blood and it smells like blood, it probably is blood. Take a big whiff of your hands, pdq. You're the one who thinks its O.K. to kill more Iraqi civilians and U.S. soldiers. Thats certainly not going to bring back those who were killed by Saddam. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Ron Davies Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:31 PM Peace 22 Sept 2005 6:29 PM: "It's the material to "fission" that has so far been difficult to acquire". Bingo. However, Mr. Bush, as I've pointed out before, is doing his level best to make it easier to acquire nuclear material (there's even a thread on it). In his infinite wisdom he has discontinued 2 programs to secure nuclear material in Russia. Why?--because the US firms involved don't want to pay workers' compensation. Just by itself, this is a good candidate to have him impeached, convicted and removed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:36 PM Very good point pdq. Especially the young kids who are innocent bystanders. These are usually results of the drug trade which is escalating at a very high pace and I do feel middle america (or however you wanna categorize it) have their heads up their kazoos with the damage it is doing to our society. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:48 PM Thanks, sIx. All I ask is that people who argue with me be civilized and back up their opinions with fact. Mudcat is falling into the category of a "hate forum" do to the intolerance of the Mudcat "Dirty Dozen" who feel they have the right to drive all non-conforming opinion off the board. That will not work with me. If that bothers people like Bobert, then he can ignore my posts. Or fuck-off. Again, no skin off my nose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 22 Sep 05 - 11:56 PM He was never a nice guy. The US didn't "force" him to be a thug. As a thug, he was much more useful to the US than he would have been as a "nice guy". He was our thug. This is how we bought him... _________________________________ "Real power plays all sides of any conflict, alternately supporting and subverting (from within and without), playing one side against another, "managing the tension," until desired results are achieved. A well-documented example is Afghanistan, where, in the wake of the Afghan-Soviet War, the US has installed and then violently overthrown successive regimes (Rabbani, Hekmatyr, Northern Alliance, Taliban), until a satisfying result was eventually achieved: a US puppet government, headed by former Unocal consultant and CIA asset Hamid Karzai, narco-trafficking warlord/bandits of the Northern Alliance, and helped along by US envoy Zalmay Khalilzad, Pentagon-intelligence insider, former Unocal consultant, and assistant to current Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. In Iraq, the US and CIA have been playing a similar game for decades, running paramilitaries and armed groups with roots going back to Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s and beyond. 'Americans have been left in the dark concerning CIA maneuvers in the Middle East, fed a steady diet of fantasy mush in which Arabs and Muslims are inexorably tagged as irrational, fanatical terrorists,' wrote Kurdish journalist Husayn Al-Kurdi. 'The actual history of CIA involvement in the region tells a far different story.' The CIA's direct role in Iraq stretches back to the 1950s. Saddam Hussein himself was a US creation, a US ally and a CIA asset. As noted by Al-Kurdi, 'after propping up the corrupt regime of Nuri Said, the USA went after Abdul Karim-Kassem, whose popularly-supported coup eliminated the old British agent Nuri in 1958. Among those whom the CIA recruited to do its dirty work were the Iraqi Baath Party, including a brash power-hungry adventurer named Saddam Hussein.' The CIA then engineered the overthrow and assassination of Kassem in 1963, with Saddam playing a major role in the Kassem hit and subsequent liquidations of Communists. Throughout the ensuring decades to the start of the Gulf War in 1990, Saddam was a key US ally in the region, as well as a US trading partner, and a business associate of George Herbert Walker Bush. (In another hemisphere, Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega played a similar role over the same period.) The Bush administration's National Security Decision Directives (exposed in an LA Times investigation in 1992), as well as records detailing the Bush-Saddam relationships through the notorious BCCI and Banco Nacional del Lavoro (BNL) scandals, offer clear evidence that Saddam Hussein's government was explicitly and knowingly armed and financed by the US and personally involved with Bush. After the Gulf War, in the guise of a "Kurd safe haven," the CIA created a protectorate and base for covert activities designed to destabilize the Iraqi regime, while allowing the suppression of Kurds and Muslims to continue simultaneously. Under George H.W. Bush, the CIA reportedly spent $20 million in anti-Saddam propaganda, and at least $11 million in aid to a number of Iraqi and Kurd opposition groups. As Al-Kurdi points out: 'It was clear from the beginning that the "safe haven" was an operation to provide "cover" for CIA operations against Iraq and Turkish crackdowns on Kurds�not "comfort," as its official designation implied. A state of dependence was reinforced in which the "providers" could keep their Kurdish puppets on short strings.' When Shi'ite Muslims in southern Iraq staged a revolt against Saddam in the spring of 1991 under the watchful eye of the CIA, the Bush I administration permitted Saddam's Iraqi troops to crush the revolt. To prevent a popular Islamic movement within Iraq (one that could threaten western oil interests and business interests), Bush did nothing as his former partner and vanquished foe crushed the revolt. Keeping Saddam Hussein alive but neutered (via sanctions, no-fly zones, etc.) allowed the US to keep military forces in Saudi Arabia, while plans for an eventual Iraq regime change were debated. In the meantime, the rebuilding of Iraq, and various forms of covert trade, was lucrative to a number of western corporations (such as Halliburton, General Electric and others). The black market was also means of control. 'By turning a blind eye to smuggled oil,' writes former CIA operative Robert Baer in his book See No Evil, "the US managed to turn the Kurdish opposition against itself even as it helped Saddam pay for his praetorian guard, just what you'd expect of a clever superpower that was secretly supporting the local despot.'" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: ard mhacha Date: 23 Sep 05 - 05:16 AM Now, now, McGrath give the great Mahatma Ghandi credit for the quote, "Western civilisation?, what a good idea". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: sapper82 Date: 23 Sep 05 - 05:55 AM It is interesting that, amongst all the postings either blaming the USA for the problems in the Middle East or defending the actons of the USA, little is made about the role of the USSR and the political atmosphere of the Cold War. As much as the USA supported regimes that appeared to oppose Communism, the USSR was instrumental in arming and supporting groups it thought were anti-US. Most of the weaponry of the radical Arab states was Warsaw Pact in origin as much as the weaponry of the moderate states was provided by NATO. That was the nature of the the times when "My enemy's enemy must be my friend" became the ruling creed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 05 - 08:03 AM Like I've said before, stats don't mean too much... Let's say that an airliner goes down killing 365 people today... and thast none go down fir the next year... A stat guy can say that one person, on average, dies from an ailiner going down at a rate of one per day... Thta;s kinda like the 157 people killed by Saddam... I've asked folks who poat this to tell me how many people Saddam killed the, ohh, on the day before Iraq was invaded but haven't gotten an answer... Or the Tuesdau before??? Er the Tuesday a month before??? And just fuir the record, seein' as my trusty Wes Ginny Slide Rule is sleepin' in this mornion', what is Bush's per day killin' numbers??? Prolly in the 157 range himself... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM Now, now, Ard the wrath of McGrath may be on you: Spelling of names. Don Firth, your argument that the Rosenbergs were hanged for something a little boy could understand is wrong. The description you have read as a little boy starts with the assumption you have a subcritical mass of fissionable material. What comes then is fairly easy. How to produce fissionable material out of raw uranium was the difficult bit you have not been told about in the magazine. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Donuel Date: 23 Sep 05 - 08:42 AM Like the Arch Duke Ferdinand, Saddam may become the figure head that unleashes a war far beyond his legacy of evil or importence. The elephant in the room is the detonation of any sized nuke on any given day, by anyone with the capacity to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:58 AM It has been US policy for decades to protect the oil in the middle east. Our experience with $60 + oil and my faith in capitalism leads me to believe that this policy is erroneous. -We went to war in Iraq the first time to protect oil. -We set up bases in Saudi Arabia for the no fly zones and because we didnt trust Saddam. -Al Queda wants us out. They attack the US. -We goto the the middle east and fight 2 wars. All of this could have been avoided if we had faith in our business people. When oil reaches these levels, it is not the end of the world. There are plenty of substitute products and there are plenty of profit maximizing individuals/firms who will find ways to conserve energy. I don't like the fact that our foreign policy people still haven't figured out what Adam Smith figured out 200+ years ago: wars generally make little financial sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST Date: 23 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM It is indeed a "hate forum" here, always has been |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 23 Sep 05 - 11:46 AM I wouldn't really call it a hate forum ... but more like a reflection of what the U.S. has evolved into ... more of a reflection of it's 2 party system ... which in itself has turned into left or right ... right or wrong ... ying or yang. There is a deep rooted problem in the U.S. now ... it's not just the Iraq war and the amount of murdered argued in statistics ... I find this disturbing, that some mother's child a victim of injustice whether in Iraq or inner Philadelphia is argued in some statsitic ... it's appears to me (anyway) that American society is alienating itself from it's human roots and human rationality .... they have blinders on ... desperating seeking an answer from something, while being defensive about any perceptions from outside of their own self sphere that they can't comprehend. That's sIx's 2 cent's worth on all of this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Don Firth Date: 23 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM Wolfgang, I was fully aware of that. What I am trying to point out is that if one already has fissionable material, the actual building of a bomb is not that difficult. There is still a great deal of question about whether the Rosenbergs gave the Soviets any information at all, let alone information that their physicists didn't already know. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Donuel Date: 23 Sep 05 - 02:07 PM Don Firth: I got to view a very old CIA memo regarding the proposed arrest and conviction of the Rosenbergs. It pointed out how a national trial would help keep radical Jews in line in the midst of the cold war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 23 Sep 05 - 02:09 PM LMAO, boy this thread's quality has been gone down hill! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,Takamine Yamaha Date: 23 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM rarelamb I have to agree with you on that. What's even worse it that it was a rather dumb thread to begin with. Old Europe, western civilization being terrorized by Islamic terrorist to criticisms of Steve Earl and then on to the conviction of the Rosenberg's. I thing they should give out a life time supply of Ritalin to anyone who registers with the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Don Firth Date: 23 Sep 05 - 02:36 PM Well, that's the way these discussions go. One thing leads to another. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 23 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM It makes you wonder how large Oliver Stone's family really is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 23 Sep 05 - 03:41 PM Real big. Goes clear back to the family matriarch Rosetta Stone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 23 Sep 05 - 03:47 PM The Rosetta Stone .... Very, very good .... LOL. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: ard mhacha Date: 23 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM Not to be outdone was the Stone outside Dan Murphy`s door, he had a world of wisdom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Sep 05 - 06:53 PM The Gandhi (not "Ghandi" please!) quote comes from when he visited London in 1931, and a reporter asked him what he thought of "Western Civilisation". He tactfully replied "I think it would be a good idea". Tactfully, because on another occasions he wrote "It is my firm opinion that Europe does not represent the spirit of God or Christianity but the spirit of Satan. And Satan�s successes are the greatest when he appears with the name of God on his lips." And at another time "I consider western Christianity in its practical working a negation of Christ's Christianity." I imagine he'd have said today that things haven't changed that much. (As for Al Qaeda and that crew, I think Gandhi would have definitely seen them as a negation of the Islamic vision.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 23 Sep 05 - 08:59 PM One favourite quote of mine from Mohandas Gandhi is: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. So true. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:35 PM Has the US Used more than two WMD's? Timothy McVeigh was convicted of using a WMD. By that definition, the Justice Department's, pretty much every bomb they've dropped in anger from an aircraft in the last 50 years is a wmd. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: akenaton Date: 24 Sep 05 - 04:59 AM Surely the US military machine is in itself a "weapon of mass destruction. Just ask the families of Fallujah.....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Grab Date: 24 Sep 05 - 10:30 AM 1. When he was a nice guy. 2. When the US forced him to become a thug. 3. When we bought him. To answer these points PDQ, see the links below for all the info you could want. As for points 1 and 2, he was *always* a thug (see first link below). But he was a thug armed by the US, UK and other Western governments and financed by those governments' desire for cheap oil. Also the USSR as well. Initially the British didn't care about him (he was just another tinpot dictator), but then he hadn't started massacring Iraqi civilians yet. In the 80s though, the US backed him because Iraq had gone to war with Iran, and Iran was considered the major enemy. So that's where 3 comes in. And all through the time the US and UK supported him, he was actively using his weapons of mass destruction (namely chemical weapons) on Kurdish and Shiite areas. Daily Telegraph link BBC timeline and Western support of Hussein Basically, if he hadn't invaded Kuwait and thereby put everyone's oil supplies at risk, then I reckon he'd still have backing from the US and UK today. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:04 PM And Saddam did actually ask the US for the go-ahead before he invaded Kuwait, as he appears to have done for his earlier aggression against Iran. Or he thought he had. However the reported reassurance to him by April Glaspie, the US ambassador to Iraq, to the effect that the US "has no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait", turned out not to match with how Washington decided to play it. That's the problem with being a tolerated thug, working for respected gentry. Sometimes they decide you're a liability, and they take out a contract on you. Mafia Dons or World Leaders, it's basically the same game. This Encyclopedia site brings together a lot of stuff about the whole background, and doesn't actually appear to be politically loaded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Donuel Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:45 PM Jacl the sailor, yes by those standards I bet you are right. Depleted Uranium is also a weapon of mass destruction in amount and killing/mutations. The amoungt of radiation is tens of thousands times more than the bombs we dropped on Japan. http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/metalofdishonor3.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: pdq Date: 24 Sep 05 - 07:46 PM Grab, Those questions were intended to be a slightly facetious introduction to the "Saddam's Life" timeline. Point is, I suppose, that nobody could create a creep like Saddam. As far as "buying him", I believe it is the other way around. When a Third World leader receives billions of dollars annually in oil revenue, that man has a choice: help his people and "do the right thing", or buy arms and kill people. Saddam's life shows a pre-disposition to do the latter. Anybody who waves billions of dollars in the face of arms dealers will be able to buy anything he wants. The world just works that way. Once he received the arms, he disd not have to use them. He did. His choice, not ours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:20 PM And Pilate washed his hands... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM First of all, I'd like to congratulate Mr. Bush on reducing the number of killed day to approximately 100 folks... But I'd also like to re-issue my challenge to the popster who said that Saddam was at 157 to provide the number that Sddam was killin' on any given day in the six months beofre the USD invasion... This is what I have been tryin' to point out about statistics... Thay can be very misleading... Hey, given the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan at the ned of WWII, I'm sure a statistican could paint a stat thjat would look like the US is averaging the killiong of _____ number of Japanese per day??? I would hope that in future disussions that folks would shy away from stats that come to them from sources other than credible sources... The 157 number is as suspect as the 100 number I threw out for example, though the 100 number is probably closer to being accurate over the time defined from the invasion until today, whereas the Saaddam number seems to just come from no particular time frame... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:06 PM Robert McNamara ... where are ya when we need ya ?!?!?! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:25 PM Yeah, sIx, exactly what Iz tryin' to say... Bob McNamara knew all about nummers... He knew that the American people would certainly support an endless war, even if it were unwinnable as long a at the end of the day thier(the Viet Cong and North BVietnamese) dead surpassed those of out troops... (Heck with the S. Vietnamese... They didn't really ever count in the poloitcis... Yeah, Bobert, go tell some kid whoe's dad 'er mom was fightyin' with the South Vietnamese!!!) Ain't gonna get into them nummers other than to say that trhey represent added-on failures by Johnson/Nixon folks... The war was wrong... It was unwinnable by anyone other than the Vietnamese people... The US lost... No, they wouldn't have won if thwey nuked Vietnam, so don't even go there.... The US ain't learned much about being a super power... Taskes more to being a super power than a big stick... Big stick like a cap-'n-ball Colt: "Getta ya into trouble but it won't get ya' out" (Steve Earle from "The Devil's Right Hand") Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: number 6 Date: 24 Sep 05 - 11:34 PM Yeah .... I'm amazed how the U.S. has not learned the lesson ... Vietnam wasn't that far off from memory. I find the following lyrics relate to what's happening. The U.S. has no excuse for the mistake of Iraq. "The devil made me do it the first time, the second time I did it on my own" - Billy Joe Shaver sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: mg Date: 25 Sep 05 - 03:00 PM Don't worry only about the terrorists of the Islamic persuasion. They have and will join forces with every public and undeclared enemy of America and everyone else. Mafia, Tongs, the last of the old-guard Nazis, street gangs, IRa, drug cartels, etc. We only see the tip of the iceberg but they are all holding hands and dancing underneath the surface and have as many weapons as they want. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM "Every public and undeclared enemy of...everyone else." I think that goes a little too far. That would imply making common cause with public and undeclared enemies of, say, the present government in Iran, or Cuba. Including the most prominent among those, the US Government. I know these "terrorists of the Islamic persuasion" have happily cooperated with the US government in the past, and vice versa, but I have a feeling that, at this point, it is unlikely that they will be holding hands and dancing together. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM Donuel, "Depleted Uranium is also a weapon of mass destruction in amount and killing/mutations. The amoungt of radiation is tens of thousands times more than the bombs we dropped on Japan." Can you provide ANY documentation from a reputable source on this? Are you even aware of what the half-life of Uranium is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Sep 05 - 07:15 AM http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm "A common misconception is that radiation is depleted uranium's primary hazard. This is not the case under most battlefield exposure scenarios. Depleted uranium is approximately 40 percent less radioactive than natural uranium. Depleted uranium emits alpha and beta particles, and gamma rays. Alpha particles, the primary radiation type produced by depleted uranium, are blocked by skin, while beta particles are blocked by the boots and battle dress utility uniform (BDUs) typically worn by service members. While gamma rays are a form of highly-penetrating energy , the amount of gamma radiation emitted by depleted uranium is very low. Thus, depleted uranium does not significantly add to the background radiation that we encounter every day." I DO NOT argue that DP is harmless- but radiation is NOT the problem. also...http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: artbrooks Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:21 AM VA Fact Sheet on DU |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:31 AM Thanks, Art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:53 PM I have posted that : -We went to Gulf I to protect oil -Al Queda attacked the US because we had to maintain bases in Saudi Arabia because of the no fly zones and as a deterrent to Saddam -We had to take out Saddam because of our bases destabilizing the area -We should have trusted the market place and business men to use substitute products ( plenty of oil )and conserve. -We should not have gone into Gulf I I will now add: -Environmentalist have killed more US citizens than were killed in Vietnam. stop the killing -CAFE standards have killed approximately 2000 people a year since 1975 or 60,000 people. That's blood on the hands of our environmentalists. Kinda puts US losses in Iraq in perspective doesn't it? My question is where are the Cindy Sheehans of the world to protest this wholesale slaughter of American blood? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Ebbie Date: 26 Sep 05 - 01:52 PM Oh, rarelamb? Your claiming that meeting the fuel efficiency standards imposed by the "environmentalists" (What?? You're not an environmentalist? Don't you care about the air you breathe? Don't you care whether we leave viable nature for your children and grandchildren?) are causing additional deaths through lighter weight vehicles is a little shortsighted, imo. We have a host of remedies and options. We could impose lower speed limits for all vehicles. We could speed the development and installation of contact inhibitors on our cars. We could re-instate interstate rail service for commerce, complete with truck container carriage capacity. If the people call for it, the money for research and developmnet and the technical people eager to get in on the action - and the money - will be there. There are many, many ways to go besides what we now consider the norm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM I wonder how many athsma-related deaths have been prevented by those very same CAFE standards since 1975. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Jack the Sailor Date: 26 Sep 05 - 03:26 PM Rarelamb. I went into the site you linked to to try to find something which explained or backed your supposition an in the first link I found this. "But later came another NHTSA report, using more complete data than were available for its earlier study, showing that -- surprise -- driving in America is actually safer than ever. While the number of traffic deaths in 2002 rose in absolute terms from the previous year, the fatality rate per vehicle mile traveled dropped -- continuing a trend that has been evident for over three decades.2 No one should be surprised that the number of highway fatalities rose slightly; after all, America's population is increasing, as is the number of vehicles and the miles driven on our roads. This is why the fatalities per vehicle mile traveled is the most accurate measurement of auto safety." There is also an admonition not to believe government reports. So the real message of the site is, "If you want to delude yourself, this is the site for you." HAHAHAHAHAHA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:27 PM I rather think that fantasies about how the environment doesn't really matter may turn out to have been drowned in the Gulf. The Gulf of Mexcico that is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Sep 05 - 07:42 AM "Environmentalist (sic) have killed more US citizens than were killed in Vietnam". If you believe such tripe, Rare Lamb, you are even more gullible than I had thought--and you set a high standard in that regard. I was just reading an article on the subject of safety and small versus large vehicles. Title: "'How US Shifted Gears to Find Small Cars Can Be Safe Too"--"Studies Discover Size, Quality Are As Important as Weight". According to David L. Greene, research fellow at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, DOE research lab: Mr. Greene says " that previous research that did find a correlation (between fuel economy and increased traffic fatalities) studied only the immediate years after fuel economy reform when weight drops were most significant. But studied over a longer period, that correlation disappears, he says". Source: that WKLR (well-known leftist rag), the Wall St. Journal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:57 PM Ron couldn't find your article. Did you guys notic ehte name of the national academy of sciences report? Effectiveness and Impact of CAFE Standards 2002 2002.... but let's say that 2k died in 2 years only. Then environmentalists have killed more Americans than Al Queda. How do you like them apples :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:15 PM Here are some tasty links: stop the killing 1 "A new study by the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a national think tank in Washington D.C., shows that, for 2000, this translated into 2,500 to 4,400 additional deaths nationwide." stop the killing 2 "Two recent automobile surveys confirm that there is a tradeoff between fuel economy and safety. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) rated the Geo Metro, which gets 44 mpg, at the top of its list of most fuel efficient cars. That same week in October, the Metro ranked near the top of a list compiled by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) -- of the most dangerous cars. The death rate for the two-door Metro was twice as high as the average rate of all cars surveyed. The IIHS said in a press release that this survey's results "reinforce the conclusion that bigger is better when it comes to protecting people in passenger vehicles from crash death and injuries." Clearly, consumers should be the ones who decide how best to balance their need for fuel economy against safety. " stop the killing 3 "CAFE kills people," Kazman noted. According to the NHTSA's own data, he pointed out, mandatory fuel requirements cause up to 3,000 deaths per year. Oh the humanity.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:09 PM People now have the choice to buy hybrid SUVs, so it's really a non-issue. And we still haven't addressed the issue of how many people die every year from pollution related illnesses. My guess is that far more deaths have resulted from pollution than from CAFE standards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:23 PM CarolC, Agreement with you on the need to look at the total impact, including pollution caused illness and death. BUT, one has to look at the increased environmental impact of hybrid and other "green" technologies over their lifetimes, including manufacturing and end-of-life disposal. Solar cells have little impact when in use- but I don't want to live anywhere near the place they are manufactured, nor the dump where old ones are disposed of. Way too many hazardous chemicals... One set of pollution values is not sufficient for evaluation- one needs to have 1 Manufacturing/installation 2 Operation/fuel 3 End-of-life disposal environmental costs, at a minimum |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 28 Sep 05 - 10:46 AM Feel free to post any supporting evidence to your hypothesis. I think you will have some difficulty. Stop the killing! Stop the killing! Stop the killing! :) :) :) :) :) :) Hey hey, EPA; How many kids you kill today! Hey Hey EPA; How many kids you kill today! ROFL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 28 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM stop the Killing Here I found this. "Nor will increasing CAFE standards halt the alleged problem of "global warming." Cars and light trucks subject to fuel economy standards make up only 1.5 percent of all global man-made greenhouse gas emissions. According to data published in 1991 by the Office of Technology Assessment, A 40 percent increase in fuel economy standards would reduce greenhouse emissions by only about 0.5 percent, even under the most optimistic assumptions. 17 The NRC additionally noted that "greenhouse gas emissions from the production of substitute materials, such as aluminum, could substantially offset decreases of those emissions achieved through improved fuel economy." 18" Stop the killing! Redrum! Redrum! Stop the Killing! Oh the humanity..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorists target Western Civilization From: CarolC Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:04 PM Hybrid SUVs, rarelamb. |
