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BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
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Subject: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: saulgoldie Date: 12 Dec 05 - 05:43 PM Well, it has been settled. G-d help us. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/12/MNGEAG6SI84.DTL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Ebbie Date: 12 Dec 05 - 05:51 PM Well, there is really no doubt about why the United States of America believes in and executes (pun intended) executions. Has nothing whatever to do with anything besides revenge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 12 Dec 05 - 06:50 PM I'm certainly against the death penalty (beleiving violence begets violence) but my heart certainly is not crying over this decision ... I'm crying over victims of violence, about a society that is obsessed with violence .... Tookie is certainly one guy who knew about revenge. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Ebbie Date: 12 Dec 05 - 07:32 PM My point in this case is the same as it was with that woman in Texas to whom then-Governor Bush denied clemency. In both the cases there was NO possibility of their ever being on the street again, quite outside the changes in them that had taken place. Death penalty advocates generally cite two reasons for capital punishment: 1) That that individual will never commit crime on the innocent again and 2)That their deaths at the hands of the law will serve as a deterent to other violent minds. My response: As to #1: Incarceration without possibility of parole serves the same aim. As for #2: Since homicide stats are not borne out in states with versus states without, that is not a valid reason. To my mind, surely rehabilitation is a worthy aim. When the person then goes on to try to educate and warn youngsters as to avoiding certain life's paths, revenge and fear of 'losing face' seem to be about the only reasons left to kill them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,A Date: 12 Dec 05 - 07:51 PM Tookie Williams is getting the same thing he gave. And while in prision, his continuing attacks on guards and other prisoners did not help his case. He threw acid at more than one prison guard. He was still advising the 'Crips' while writing "childrens books". Nice try with the books but not enough. If he had just shown some remorse for his actions. But no, he wouldn't/couldn't and it is rather obvious an apology would never take place. "Revenge and losing face" is not the issue. The jury system has worked and the many appeals said the same thing. The death penalty is not a real concern to those who do not take lives in a vicious and heartless manner. It can bother those who think that justice is a secondary consideration. Does it solve anything? Probably not, but it does end the expensive process of housing a murderer who is at least having a lifestyle (of sorts) that his victims were prevented from having. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Donuel Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM An individual may commit certain acts which are detrimental to his society but in a different time and society, those same acts might in fact be beneficial to the species. That is however a perspective that exceeds the vision of any living judge, govenor or common man. Sorry Mr. Williams, although you lived by your credo "Ya gotta do what ya gotta do", our current laws in this society has found you guilty unto death, whether you are guilty of the original charges or not. Next time Tookie, although I do not believe there is one, try not being a minority. Yes I know there are statistics that show the death penalty rates are the same for blacks and whites, but I woudn't stake my life on them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM Well, well, well... Yeah, seein' as this man has done so much in fighting gang violence in the past several years a reasonable man might stop and ask, "Hey, is this man a value to society?" That would be a reasonbale question... But beyond the rersonablness of this man's life there are those who want revenge... The Bible teaches us that revenge is God's reponsibliity and not ours... Here is a amn who is positively impacting more folks than possibly any elected official, yet their sins are glossed over, covered up or just denied and denied... Do I condone what Tookie is convicted of doing? Heck no, I don't!!! But in these days and times when American needs so much more moral leadership, it is at least as criminal for the state to take the life of a man who has for so long spoken of non-violence... Much like Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy spoke of non-violence... Yeah, Tookie is not being executed for the crimes that he was convicted of some quarter of a century ago... He is being executed because he stands for non-violence... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Beer Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:54 PM I never did appreciate Jessie Jackson. Now I think even less of him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:03 PM Guest,A: And while in prision, his continuing attacks on guards and other prisoners did not help his case. He threw acid at more than one prison guard. He was still advising the 'Crips' while writing "childrens books". And your source for this "information" is .... __________? Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Ebbie Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:05 PM "Stanley Tookie Williams, co-founder of the Crips street gang in Los Angeles over 30 years ago, is facing execution on December 13. Over the past 12 years, Williams has publicly apologized for his past, written a series of award-winning children's books to keep kids out of gangs, initiated a Peace Protocol that led to gang truces in cities such as Newark, New Jersey, and been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize." Interesting Reading |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:14 PM Guest,A: The jury system has worked... It depends on what the meaning of "worked" is. Just out of curiosity: Do you think the jury system "worked" in the O.J. Simpson case? FYI, the advent of DNA evidence has managed to pull quite a few people off of Death Row for whom the "jury system ha[d] worked" (not to mention the vaunted double-check and safeguard, the appeals system).... And for some reason, gummints are reluctant to "re-open" cases where the accused have already been put to death ... saying that the cases are moot and that a further examination of the evidence wouldn't have any legal effect and therefore can't (or shouldn't) be done ... because the DEAD CAN'T BE MADE UNDEAD! FWIW, I don't think that Williams ought to get any special consideration because of his books; I'd think it fundamentally unfair to say that only those with a talent for writing (assuming he had one; displaimer: I haven't read his stuff) should have the opportunity for clemency. I just think the whole thing sucks. Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Donuel Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:15 PM Bobert, putting tookie in the same column as MLK and RFK... that is a stretch even for me. I believe there is redemption in our prison system. There is redemption in the prison system when big money or big institutions are involved. GWB as govenor of Texas did in fact stay the execution of one death row inmate. The convicted murderer W saved was a former CIA agent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:55 PM Stretch or not, Donuel, can you point out any elected fedweral offical who has had such a positive influence on kids who might be headed toward a life of the gang??? That was my point... I'm just looking at the value of this man today... Not 25 years ago... But today!!! Hey, ain't 'nuff positive role models out there... And that is why I compared this man to MLK and RFK... They, too, were role modles with lots to say about non-violence and social justice... I ain't sayin' that Tookie is an equal but he, at least for the last decade, has been on the correct side of the equation... This country doesn't need loose any more voices of reason... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: pdq Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:00 PM When somebody says goodbye to me I'm sad as I can be, But when I think of Tookie boy I'll surely shout with glee "Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!" The funeral train that takes you Away from me, No words can tell how glad it makes me "Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!" When they stick the needle in You know it won't hurt But when the relatives see you twitch They'll surely want to blurt (out) "Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!" Watch for the mail, I'll never fail, If you don't get a letter Then you'll know you're in Hell "Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:04 PM The abomination we see today is that idiot Schwarzenegger setting himself up to judge Williams. He scheduled a clemency hearing, but doesn't have the intellectual wherewithal to understand the issues in front of him. He sees the polls. That's all. Will this execution get him reelected? Letting him live isn't going to hurt anybody and it does benefit a lot of people whose voices aren't being heard right now. Killing him removes all options. Look at this face. You're going to be seeing a lot of folks looking like that, and if Ahnold wants some riots in his large cities, he is inviting them right now. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Andy Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:09 PM George Bush won't let Ahnold pardon Tookie. He has the Gov under his thumb in Payback for getting Davis thrown out and him elected. I don't care how many people he has murdered. I don't care if he laughed and joked about the dying gurgles of a military man he shot in the back twice trying to make a living honestly in a C store. 9 childrens books and several online Nobel P{eace Prize nominations is more than sufficient to make up for those pre meditated, cold blooded murders. I don't care if the gang he founded is still murdering people, he is still redeemable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:24 PM You absolute clueless morons who make this evil prick the victim have obviously not seen the picture or read the text describing the poor young girl's face he blew off in a robbery. I don't see anyone here lamenting for her or the people that suffered from her loss of life. The mistake is here is that this evil jerk was allowed to live so long on death row and that he wasn't executed more than 20 years ago. And the foolish lawyers trying to save him should fucking fry in hell. What total far-left liberal bullshit! Let the law be carried out quickly and good riddance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:27 PM When you put it that way, Andy, I must presume that your tongue is firmly embedded in your cheek. Ghost writers are easily hired and Nobel Peace prize nominations are quite easily obtained, though the list isn't made available until about 50 years have passed. Take a look. The point is, he's working at making a difference and he has succeeded. As a resident of a state with a very high execution rate I'm appalled at how easily these publicly sanctioned murders down here in Texas slip by and we barely notice them. I see the case in California as a great example of how politicians are sticking to their "principles" and paying close attention to poll numbers but completely miss the point of what is going on. This guy was a nasty piece of work, but he got smart and starting trying to make things right. Now Ahnold wants to try to play word games and suggest that if he doesn't apologize for the murders he says he didn't commit, then how can he be redeemed? Tookie may have committed other murders and been innocent of these. He may have committed all of them. He was a nasty man who is in prison for the rest of his life but he's trying to make a difference. The death penalty stinks. And this is a classic reason why it should never have been resumed. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM Just what I'd expect from a prick like you, Martin... No, make that assh*le prick... You'd roll yer own mother unner the bus, jerk... But I hope you and yer little, no make that *very* little, jerk off friends get yer selves a big ol' bowl of jollies... Meanwhile, yer jerkoff president has killed motre innocent folks in the last 3 years than Tookie couild have if he lived to be a thousand years old... Opps, sorry to interupt yer Bushite circle-jerk... More bklood on yer hands than there's time to undue... Glad yer think you7 are a Jew 'cause guess what... In my Faithym dumbass stuff is accountable for at the end of the game and youm along wityh all the pricks out there who think they arer so smug and righteuos, would rot in Hell... Haver a nice rest of the Hellish life you have created for yourself right here in this life... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:43 PM What should Saddam Hussein's fate be ?? I don't think you would find too many people crying over his execution. Even if Saddam also chose to co-write some children's books. Tookie is/was responsible for a lot of violence in his life time. Many innocent people were his victims. More, much more, than the 4 he was charged with. He lived in a violent society and now he pays the price to that society. Nobody is crying for the victims. As I mentioned, I'm against the death penalty, ... if clemency was granted to him, I feel all inmates on death row should be granted clemency. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM Well, if you don't believe in murder...then don't do it. Very simple. Governments and governors should be included in that. Human beings are not endowed with the authority to premeditatedly and deliberately end the lives of other human beings, in my opinion...specially not when they themselves are in absolutely no personal danger from those others at the time. It's a despicable thing to contemplate and a despicable thing to do. It's the act of the powerful against the completely powerless. It's stupid. It's unnecessary. It's an act of deep cowardice and ignorance. It denies even the possibility of redemption in another human being. If there were such a being as Satan, then how pleased he would be by that! How pleased he would be by the withholding of forgiveness, the withholding of mercy, and the application of stern and unyielding judgement upon a prisoner. How he would relish the fear, the despair, the suffering. Jesus never recommended executing anyone, did he? There is an interesting dichotomy between the Old Testament and the New. The difference between "no mercy" and "complete mercy". Christians pick whichever book suits their basic inclinations when they use it to back up their own desires. The merciless can find plenty of passages in the O.T. to feed their unholy hunger for blood...all of which were repudiated by Jesus later. They can just ignore those aspects. Jesus tried to reform an ancient, primitive, and hard-hearted faith. He was a Jew. He was not accepted by the mainstream Jewish church of his time. Would mainstream Christianity accept him today? I wonder. I know a lot of them wouldn't. The point is not whether Tookie was or is a "good man" or not. The point is that murder, all murder, is wrong. Shall we cancel one murder out with another? Who made some man in a uniform or a judge's robe into God? If they did, they made a false god in the image of their own wrathful fear and judgement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Beer Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM The death penelty doesn't stink. He get's what he deserves. in fact to many get off when the should be hung. To many times young ladies are brutely murdered and yet the the murderer in a few years are set free. Were all pussies. If a child is mutilated, tie a rope around their balls and drag them down the street. Then hang them. Their nothing but human garbage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: heric Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:55 PM The death penalty stinks. And tookie, with his online Peace Prize nominations, lending his name to "just say no to violence" ads, and ghost-written books, and made-for TV movies, and his absolutely awesome PR team, all of which cost him nothing, does not deserve to manipulate the Governor to go against all law and procedure of over two decades, but it was a DAMNED good shot. Good on him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM Here's the thing. The point isn't whether or not Tookie did it or didn't do it. Even if he did the crime, he shouldn't be executed, because the death penalty makes us no better than the murderers that we execute. Murder is murder, whether it is committed by an individual or the state. End the death penalty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM If you're heartily willing to kill...then you have the nature of a murderer. Some have it. Some don't. The two will never see it the same way. The desire to kill arises out of fear. Nothing else. Just fear. And whose tool is fear? God's or Satan's? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:59 PM bobert So who else beside Saddam, Hitler, and tookie do you idolize? I consider your response for someone who can't spell or express himself with anything more than a bunch of jumbled slang a total success of having completely your chain. You got a lot of people laughing at you bobert. first you defend Saddam and now tookie. There isn't a day that goes by that you undermine America and there isn't a day that goes by that you aren't one of Mudcat's most complete jerks. Bullseye, moron. |
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Subject: The Death Penalty sucks From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:03 PM It does stink. And so does the politician and the society that thinks the public execution of anyone is the proper way to behave. I don't think Saddam should be executed. I think he should rot in prison for the rest of his natural life, but I don't think he should be executed. Bush is worst of all. He declared today that 30,000 Iraqis had died so far in this war of his. 2100 American troops were collateral damage, apparently. The Iraqis and Americans are paying an expensive price so Bush can one-up his daddy. You don't think there's blood on his hands? But I wouldn't execute Bush, either. I'd let him rot in prison the rest of his life, too. Maybe Bush should read some of Tookie's books. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:05 PM Actually it was a pretty pathetic PR job, typical of a violent manipulative thug ... he should have confessed to his murders, all of them ... asked for redemption and forgiveness. That would have left a more plausible, honest, earnest impression on society. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:09 PM LOL! Predictable. What would we do without these unresovable philosophical differences to keep our hands busily typing and our minds raging on? Doesn't it feel GREAT to be right ALL the time? I know it makes ME feel just wonderful! I bet it does you too! Mmmm...boy...so superior. I get thrills thinking how society is bolstered up and defended by my wisdom and sanity in the face of the idiots who don't see it MY WAY. (ha! ha! I'm being a bit satirical here, folks) I figured that Don Firth was your perfect marriage partner, Martin, but now I'm leaning toward Bobert instead. Whaddya think? An idea whose time has come? Think of it. Would you bother coming here if everyone agreed with you? Where would be the fun in that? Where would be the challenge? Why even bother? You should thank Jehovah, Martin, that there are all these "liberals" here...to keep you entertained. You love this place, don't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM What if he didn't do it??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM Bobert, I think you are the one living a hellish life cause you can't stand things the way they are. You whine and piss and moan about everything. Then you say someone in the majority has created a hellish life for themselves. Obviously you are on the side of Jesse Jackson and other esteemed humantarians and adulterers who think getting clemency for a murderer will gain esteem for them. He "bragged to several people about killing the victims" Suppose one of them was related to you? Would you still be a wimp? How many thousands of innocent people have been killed and continue to be killed by the gang that he co-founded and by the gangs that his creation spawned? LA Times: Williams Still Leads Crips. San Quentin leaders dispute the death row inmate's assertion that he has changed his life. In 1971, the use of the word 'Crip' had become so common among the Avenues Cribs that it became an acceptable name for the gang. Meanwhile, Raymond Washington and his collection of young gang members influenced other area youth gangs resulting in the formation of many Crip sets. Some of these sets included Avalon Garden Crips, Eastside Crips, Inglewood Crips and Westside Crips. Crips gangs were violent and constantly expanded their turf. Because of their aggression, several rival gangs joined forces as a gang collective called the Bloods. They adopted the color Red as their representative color. A fierce rivalry between these two gangs existed throughout the 1970's and 80's. By the early 1980's, Crips gangs were heavily involved in the drug trade that they commenced an expansion throughout the United States to sell a new drug product called "Crack". Throughout the 1980's and 1990's the Crips developed intricate networks and a respected reputation with other gangs across America and neighboring countries. Development During the 1980's, several Crip gangs (and Bloods) developed in a Central American Country known as Belize (formerly British Honduras). These gangsters migrated heavily to the United States during the late 1980's, especially throughout the West Coast and East Coast States like New York, New Jersey, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. In 1989, several large Belizean families arrived in New York in the neighborhood of Harlem. The youth from these families, and some adults, were members of the Crips Gang in Belize. They created the Harlem Mafia Crips in New York City and helped establish several other Crip gangs such as the Rolling 30's Crips, 92 Hoover Crips and Rolling 60's Crips by 1995. During the late 1990's, Crip gangs were well established in New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, Georgia, Connecticut, Florida, Pennsylvania and other East Coast regions. Crip members initiate into the gang by committing a crime in front of gang witnesses. The initiation process is called 'Loc'ing'-In. Female members have the option to commit a crime or become Sexed-In (Sex with several older members). Crips on the East Coast wear blue and clear beads or blue and white beads around their neck but mostly blue jeans and a white shirt. East Coast Crips affiliate with the Folk Nation gangs and have adopted the Folk Nation Symbols. They are enemies with the Bloods. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM You know what I'm saying? God laughs at all of us. We're self-important fools much of the time. But...we all have some real goodness in us too, some real possibilities. And so, God loves us. How can Love not love? It just does. Even if we do totally disagree about important matters. And no, I do not believe capital punishment is a good idea or a smart idea either. I woudn't want it done to me. I generally don't do to others what I don't want done to me. Seems simple enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:16 PM Whether he did it is irrelevant. The death penalty is wrong, and so is evey execution, whether the person is innocent or guilty. The death penalty is wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Indefensible under any circumstance. Just like torture. This ain't that tough, folks. The only thing that "complicates" things regarding things like torture and the death penalty in peoples' minds are these horrific appeals to humans' basest instincts, not their best ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:18 PM You, Old Guy, are not in the majority... How do you respond to that??? Yeah, opinion polls are showing more and more Americans agi8nsts the death penalty... What are you gonna do... Move to Afganistan, where you canm get the death pernaly for writing an article the says that woman deserve to vote??? Well, go on... I'll purchase the airline ticket fir ya'.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:21 PM Seems to me like almost nobody can stand things "the way they are", Old Guy. Only...different people find different aspects of the way things ARE to complain about, that's all. Depending on their personal slant. 99.99 % of people are fairly habitual complainers, in my opinion. Myself included. The way to eliminate vicious gangs in neighborhoods is to greatly raise the standard of living and education of the people in those neighborhoods. That's complicated. It takes quite a bit of time. Impatient people would rather just keep killing the "bad people"...just like the impatient people in the criminal gangs do. A "bad person" is someone who is getting in YOUR way in some manner. It's a matter of personal prejudice. The worse educated and more deprived your life has been, the less you are in a spot to make intelligent judgements about other people and situations. Ignorance and poverty breeds more ignorance and poverty. So what are you gonna do? Just kill them all? Or imprison them all? Good luck, charlie. You'll never have enough prisons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:42 PM What LH said... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: John MacKenzie Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:00 AM Well he's gone now, and is this world any better for his going? No; in a way it is worse, because we are all diminished by his "legal" murder. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: George Papavgeris Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:42 AM I have to agree with you, Giok. Rejoicing in Tookie's execution would make me no different (as a person) to the Palestinians rejoicing in the streets after 9/11. It's nothing to do with legality - the execution was legal; both the letter and the spirit of the law were observed. Rather, it is to do with morality and ethics, and the law is very distant from that, it serves a different purpose. Nevertheless, "When life you have taken, no matter the reason, the man that you were, you no longer can be". "Thou shalt not kill" has a full stop after it. Not a comma and "...except...". What Tookie did was abhorrent legally and morally. What the state did to Tookie was legal. That's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: saulgoldie Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:56 AM There would have been no "he might kill again" if he got life w/o parole. The reason for killing him was revenge, pure and simple. This emotional sentiment lives in our reptile brain. Presumably, humans have "evolved" somewhat beyond that level of consciousness. (Of course, some have not. And some still do not accept evolution as fact, but that is another thread.) Most of the industrialized nations of the world have banned the death penalty. Look at the list of countries that have not, and ask yourself if you like being among that crowd: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html And what about all those who have been through the system and all its appeals to be miraculously found not guilty by new means of evidence? How many were executed anyway who were innocent of any crime? Are a few such cases reasonable collateral damage? Let's hope there are no riots. Let's also hope that the Governator has signed his own political death certificate. I am embarassed (as a American) and pained that so many people still think that execution is a legitimate part of the judicial system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:30 AM Of course I'm against death penalty for many reasons but what amazes me most about the US system is the extremely long delay between the crime and the final death penalty. This delay is longer than the usual 'life' sentence in Germany. Youths (up to 18, or even up to 21 in some cases) get at most ten years even for the most brutal of crimes. Adults get most times a life sentence for murder which is under review after 12 to 15 years. In normal cases (not a particular brutal murder and not a multiple murder) the offenders come free after 12 to at most 20 years. Of course, if the person still is considered dangerous or if the murder was exceptionally brutal (let's say at the end of a prolonged rape and torture) 'life' can mean life, but even in thes cases, the murderer would come out when being really old and unable to do any physical harm. The US system ensures that the murderer lives in prison about as long as 'life' would be in many countries of Europe. Then, finally, when he has had enough time to really become a different and probably better person and even truly rues what he has done and is no longer any real threat, then is the perfect moment to finally kill him. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Paco Rabanne Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:34 AM That's because American lawyers like to make as much money as possible through endless appeals.We are going the same way in England. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: InOBU Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:37 AM Flamenco Ted... A little wake up. A large number, the majority of death penalty appeals are pro bono. Think for a moment, dear fellow, Where would some guy or gal on death row get the cash to pay a lawyer. I worked for a small firm which did a lot of civil rights pro bono, and in these days of de-funding of civil rights work the firm went out business. Now, some on the right who beleive in a market place of rights, will chear at this. However, in light of the number of post humus aquitals of people exicuted, and in light of the number of peole who decades on death row, were proved innocent, it behoves those same folks to ask, is it really a good idea to watch civil rights lawyer go bankrupt. Well, in fact, most innocent folks on death row are either a minority or poor or both, so many who lead the party of the right can't emagine needing a lawyer, having no money, and being on trial for your life. I noticed how the same folks who beat up on the lawyers ( Rush Limbow... ) suddunly find a lawyer's number when they screw up or are accused of one thing or another. Rush became a big fourth amendment advocate for a short period, when HIS drug dealing was uncovered by a search which he felt was unfair. So, beat up on the lawyers, they'll still love you when you need them, pay them or not. The same folks who rail at lawyers getting rich ( HA! ) say nothing, often about the insurence industry and the pharmaceutical industry who drive up the cost of medical help until this nation ( USA ) speaks of rationing medical care, while turning Doctors and Lawyers against each other, because most folks need to sue their docotors to pay for their treatment... What has this to do with Tookie's death? Well, these days, the right has declared war on the justice system, both civil and criminal justice. Funny thing about rights... you don't miss them until their gone. Stand up for folks like Tookie, and in the end, you might be standing up for yourself, maybe not on death row, but in some hospital ward when the doctor's administration, with their insurence company accountant, shakes their head and tells you, sorry mate... we can't afford to save your life. Yeah, blame the lawyer then... lor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Paco Rabanne Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:46 AM Lionel Hutz at your service........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: SunnySister Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:13 AM Saul, very well stated. I did not sleep well last night thinking, since I live in California, that a man's death was on my conscience. I am not saying he did or did not do the murders. I am saying that life without parole would have allowed for possible mistakes in the system and for the state of California to not murder and seek revenge in the name of its citizens. I can only imagine what those prison guards felt like when Tookie Williams tried to help them find a good vein they could use... what good did his death do? What deterent? I did not want this- SunnySister |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:21 AM Every time I find myself getting mad enough or outraged enough to wish that a particular convicted killer will get the death penalty, I realize all over again why we ought not have the death penalty. My LOGICAL position (and my moral position) is that we ought not have the death penalty at all. If emotion can carry me past that position on one case, but not another, how can I extrapolate from my own experience to conclude that ANY jury, judge, appeals court, or politician can make an objective decision? I believe that as humnan beings, we CAN'T be entirely objective about it. And therefore, if for no other reason, "fairness" cannot actually occur. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:51 AM Sunnysister, did you sleep well thinking about any of the victims of Tookie and the gang of thugs called the Crips? I think they deserve some thought at this time also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: InOBU Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:59 AM Dear Flamco Ted: Hutz is painted rather broadly. I would rather think that Horace Rumpole more accuratly defines the defense bar, he is, after all, the immage in the dream of a lawyer rather than a rather tallented cartoonist. Thine, m'luv lor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Alba Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:07 AM Well he may be gone...."legally murdered" and the Crips are still there and after waiting for 24 years in Death Row to be executed he is dead. For 24 years he wondered when....that is a Life sentence by my thinking. Victims Families may feel a little better that he was executed but really at the end of it all an eye for an eye only makes two people blind. For or against it, the Death penalty is as violent an act as the Murder that brought about the sentence. If hate caused one to kill then hate is the driving force to want the killer dead. Hate....pure and simple. Hate is a festering sore in the Heart and I wonder if killing the object of that hatered results in healing that festering sore. I suspect any relief for the Victims Families that Williams is dead may only be temporary. Their next thought may be....his death was too quick, too humane. What is done is done but each time it is done we as a Society are no better for it in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: SunnySister Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM To answer you, guest with no name, I thought about the victims and their families- I know you meant those poor people who were murdered and their families, and of course I definitely thought about them. I also thought about those guards who cared for Tookie and had to administer the lethal dose of chemicals. I tried to think about it all. Just because I am against capital punishment doesn't mean I stick my head in the ground and ignore the pain of the victims- all the victims. I, personally, am a supporter of life without the possibility of parole. I am not pro-criminal, however, I am anti-violence and against killing. Tookie Williams was murdered this morning. The State of California killed him for the citizens of this state. I find that to be barbaric to the extreme. Revenge or murder, you call it what you like. I am opposed to violence of any kind and this makes me sick. It won't bring back the murdered loved ones, it does not bring peace or comfort- it just ends one person's life who learned from his horrible mistakes and wanted to teach young people not to follow his path into violence. I am explaining my thoughts from my previous posting. I cannot change your mind, no-name guest, and neither can you change mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM How does being against the legalized death penalty equate to NOT sympathizing with crime victims??? I doesn't. We ALL sympathize with crime victims. It's so ridiculously obvious that why would it need to be said? We are all deeply upset and outraged at crimes perpetrated on innocent people. The only thing you are disturbed about, Guest, is that we do not share your emotional need for vengeance on the criminal to the extent that you would like us to. I do not believe that vengefullness is a helpful emotion. It's the emotion of a simple-minded animal that cannot think, but can only react to its own pain by lashing out at someone else. That's what causes most violent crime in the first place. That and fear or desperation or some other uncontrolled emotion. They who believe in vengeance want to BE like the very criminals they are upset with...creatures who do not think, who do not empathize, who are too stupid to stand in another person's shoes for a moment, who simply react violently and strike out. Yup, that's a lizard-brain all right. No imagination. No perception of the other's pain. No mercy. Such is the nature of the born killer. If you lust to kill the criminal, then you yourself have taken on the mind of the criminal at that moment, whether or not you have technically broken any laws in so doing. For such, it takes far more courage not to kill. And far more wisdom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Teribus Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:25 PM Hate, Alba?? Did "Tookie" Williams hate those four people he killed? Did he even know them? They were simply unfortunate enough to be in his way, in between a vicious gang leader and the money he wanted. What was his 'haul' on each occasion, about $100. Hate had absolutely nothing to do with the deaths of four people Williams was convicted of killing and hate had no part in the execution of a convicted murderer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:35 PM Where did I say I seeked revenge. I abhor violence, whether it be from gangs, war or the government doing their act in the death penalty. I was asking Sunnysister if she gave any thought to the vicims as she was so disturbed by the thought of Tookie being euthanized. Maybe if we all take a global look at violence and where it a comes about we can put an end to it all. All in all Tookie was violent, the death penalty is violent and we are all the victims of their swords. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:43 PM In the next coming weeks, there will be more gang murders, there will probably be more executions by the state. Will there be any thoughts to it all when going to bed at nite. Unfortuantly it took the likes of Tookie and all this emotional hoopla over him to make the news. Sad, because there are more victims albeit a clerk in a store, a innocent kid shot in a drive by, another hapless victim of the needle on death row and some mother's son over in Iraq. How much thought is directed at these. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:44 PM The FIRST thing that anyone naturally gives thought to is the innocent victim(s) of a crime. It's some time later that one gives thought to the situation of the accused. If you are not seeking vengeance, Guest, then, great. That's good. What are you seeking? We all wish for a world without violence, but I can't figure how we are going to get there. I know the death penalty won't get us there. It IS violence itself, after all, as you just indicated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Alba Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:45 PM To Kill is to hate Teribus. Hate is Hate. An emotion. It requires an outlet. It manifests itself in many ways. When Hate is in the Heart or Head it will come out eventually. Hate is a powerful and driving force if nurtured and allowed to thrive. Eventually it spills out. You say, "Hate had absolutely nothing to do with the deaths of four people Williams was convicted of killing and hate had no part in the execution of a convicted murderer. " Well that is your opinion Teribus and I respect it but I do not agree with it. I believe that Hate had everything to do with the deaths of four people and the execution of Williams. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:50 PM I guess the best way that any one person can end violence in the world is simply this...don't commit it. One step at a time. If you expect all these problems to be neatly resolved before you die, however, prepare to be disappointed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:01 PM Don't worry, I've been disappointed for a long, long time. I realized back then that it just goes round and round. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: kendall Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:13 PM "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth only makes the world blind and toothless." (M. Gandi) I don't know what this guy thought, but I would rather be freed by death than locked up for life. If he thinks like I do, they freed him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:19 PM That could be, Kendall. I've no real objection to people being executed if they definitely want to die. I've an objection to people being killed against their own will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Cretinous Yahoo Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM To kill a person because they killed puts us in the same hog wallow. No difference at all. The death penalty is barbaric to we who are more highly evolved than those who just want revenge. As Kendall just said, life in prison without parole is more cruel than death. One gets to dwell on ones shortcomings every day for a long long time. A lethal injection and it's all over in seconds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:23 PM kendall, it seems to me (and I have barely followed the story at all), that this man had made peace with and reconciled himself to life without parole. However, according to the usual grisly details dished out by the yellow journalist media that was present for the execution, he fought dying to the very end. The will to live is usually extremely powerful. I don't know that you would choose death over life, even if you were facing life without parole. It's one thing to say that when you sit comfortably in your chair on the internet, another thing entirely to say it with conviction when inside the walls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM Same thing occurred to me... One reason various people shoot themselves, as opposed to some other methods of suicide, is they expect it to be quick and painless. It doesn't always work out that way, though. No one knows how much they want to live until they are actually facing death. Most find that they DO want to live, at that point. So I've heard, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bill D Date: 13 Dec 05 - 01:31 PM boy, I dunno what I think....I'm not exactly 'against' the death penalty totally, but I worry about how it can be abused or used mistakenly. and in this case, I wish it had been used EARLY, when Williams was still a young, un-reformed punk. After 30 years, he 'seemed' to be a different man. I have concerns that we are valuing life differently in various situations...and that we often don't even understand our own motivations in opposing or condemning various activities that lead to deaths. I truly do NOT see the use in having prisons full of people who OBVIOUSLY are guilty and unable to function in society (and who must be fed and housed at the expense of us all)....but neither do I want stories of exectuions of innocent men.... I just do not know....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 13 Dec 05 - 02:23 PM Martin Gibson: You absolute clueless morons who make this evil prick the victim have obviously not seen the picture or read the text describing the poor young girl's face he blew off in a robbery. I don't know of anyone who's making Williams out to be "the victim". That's your "straw man" (gratuitous insults noted as well). No one is suggesting that he not be punished for the crimes he did commit, and no one is saying that the victims didn't suffer a cruelm horrific, and undeserved fate. What I don't understand is how killing him makes this a better world. Harldy a Christian sentiment (something I find curious in a country that is nominally majority Christian). I don't know if Williams is truly "redeemed" (and that is a matter for reasonable people to disagree on(, but a world without redemption is truly a heartless world. Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 13 Dec 05 - 02:37 PM Bill D: ... and in this case, I wish it had been used EARLY, when Williams was still a young, un-reformed punk. After 30 years, he 'seemed' to be a different man. So that he couldn't be given a chance to reform and repent??? Perhaps that's the real problem with the death penalty, in a nutshell.... Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: kendall Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:14 PM So many conservative Christians, so few lions. (Utah Phillips) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: gnu Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM Arne said, "What I don't understand is how killing him makes this a better world." Violent murder. Senseless murder. Instigating murder and violence through founding a gang whose very existance was meant for terrorizing, extortion, murder. Each case on it's own merits. Fair. Let's say, for the sake of arguement that he actually did do all the crimes he is accused of doing. Do you still want to keep him around? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:41 PM I have thought a lot about the death penalty. Thirteen years ago, my cousin was murdered. She had just gotten in a car with two of her grandchildren. A man approached her snatched her purse and shot her in the head. I have come to believe that there is evil in this world. I believe this man was evil. He needlessly murdered my cousin. He never explained why. He was an addict who needed ten dollars for his next pill. That explains robbery, it does not explain murder. Thanks to some witnesses who pursued this man he was arrested, tried, and convicted. He was sentenced to death. This murderer never admitted to this murder although the evidence was overwhelming. I believe in the death penalty as punishment. I believe in the death penalty as a way to prevent evil from continuing. I believe in the death penalty as a deterrent. In my State, some jurisdictions the States Attorney almost never pursues the death penalty. In others, the States Attorney pursues the death penalty if he or she believes the crime fits the criteria. The areas where there is effectively no death penalty are the same areas with the highest murder rate. Roger in Baltimore |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:06 PM "Each case on it's own merits. Fair. Let's say, for the sake of arguement that he actually did do all the crimes he is accused of doing. Do you still want to keep him around?" Yes, because it isn't about him, it is about us as a society. Murdering him doesn't do anything, except give a few people a shot of vengeance adrenalin. Roger in Baltimore, I have a similar story to yours. It was my cousin's son, 16 years old, shot to death as he rode his bike home one summer night around 10:30 pm. It was a gang initiation. All three of the teenagers involved in the murder were convicted, and sentenced to life in prison. Our state has no death penalty. Some members of our family and friends wished there was. I wasn't among them, and neither were any members of the boy's immediate family, who are Catholic, and opposed to the death penalty. Sad. Depressing. Disempowering. Maddening. We were certainly angry. I am still angry, every time I think about it (he was the same age as one of my two kids). But killing the shooter won't change anything. Not one thing. It won't lessen the horror the family went through in the wake of the murder, or what seemed like the endless days of the trials (3 of them). Amazingly, even though over 90% of the parents of murdered children get divorced, these two didn't. They have admirably moved beyond the stage of being stranded in the grief and rage over how their son died, and have redeemed themselves and their marriage by remembering him the way he lived, and in seeing the beauty of his life. I don't know if people who witness the murder of the person who murders their loved one reach that state of grace, but I kind of doubt it. It seems to me that living in a constant state of vengeance and hate pretty much condemns a person to remain untouched by the state of grace that is always possible, no matter how horrific the death. We aren't what we are because of the way we die, but because of the way we live. And that is what loved ones should try and hold onto, rather than bitterness, vengeance, and hate. At least, that is my take on it, after watching people I knew go through a murder in their family. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:43 PM Gnu: Each case on it's own merits. Fair. Let's say, for the sake of arguement that he actually did do all the crimes he is accused of doing. Do you still want to keep him around? If you're asking my opinion, I say yes. Killing someone (particularly intentionally) is barbaric, and robs you of your humanity, bit by bit, life by life, as you take the lives of others. Yes, "Tookie" Williams was a gang leader, a very violent person, and a danger to us all (but just a FWIW, more so to himself that he ever was to you or me, at least statistically). I certainly don't laud that behaviour. I just don't see that we set any kind of an exmaple by showing the gangs that we too live by the motto "an eye for an eye"..... Roger in Baltimore: I believe in the death penalty as a way to prevent evil from continuing. I believe in the death penalty as a deterrent. Would you feel differently if it were shown that the death penalty is not a "way to prevent evil from continuing"? The areas where there is effectively no death penalty are the same areas with the highest murder rate. "Cum hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. While superficially appealing, that's not really any proof of the causal link. (the last) GUEST: What you say rings true to me. Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bill D Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:52 PM Arne....about 'earlier'....the point is that IF one approves of the death penality, 30 years is a bit long to wait. IF he had been executed within 2-3 years, it would be far less troubling for many of us..."founder of Crips, convicted multiple murderer, executed" I think my only real objection is when there is real doubt (i.e., lack of absolute proof)..Williams died claiming innocence, and who really KNOWS? In the Wichita case (BTK), and in the Green River case (40-50 confirmed deaths) there were confessions, yet no death penality because they used a plea bargain to get details. If ever murderers deserved the ultimate penalty, those were examples. Like I said earlier, I really am unsure how to deal with the question, except on a case-by-case basis.....but I really don't think we can argue that killing is RIGHT in Iraq, but WRONG in certain criminal cases. (and do NOT doubt, that is what some are arguing) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: lesblank Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:26 PM I never thought the day would come when I agreed with Martin Gibson - however, having been affected by an act of violent crime, I totally agree this time. For Ebbie, and Stilly River Sage and Bobert and all the other bleeding heart liberals, what would your feelings be if one close to you had been one of Tookie's four victims ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: kendall Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:39 PM Killing this guy because he killed says more about us than about him. I live in a state that has no death penalty, yet it is one of the safest in the country. This hackneyed term "Bleeding heart liberal" is nothing more than a way to piss off some people. If you study his teachings you will have to agree that Jesus was a bleeding heart liberal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM Fair question, lasblank... Yeah, I would be mad and sad... Actaully, I had a good friend murdered when I was about 12 years old... He was 14... It hurt a lot for a 12 year old... But, that was just a neighbor and not like my wife 'er my mother... Yeah, it would be very hurtfull and, yeah, maybe my initial reaction would be wantin' to just beat the killer to a pulp... Kill him or her??? Not really... Just beat 'um and make them hurt... But we don't live in a world where the relatives and friends get an opportunity to just flail away on a killer... And that's good 'cause it gives us individually and collectively time to regain that part about us which is civilized and seperates us from the murderers and rapists... In all honesty, there are certain tests that God puts us thru and in times like these the tests are harder than stoppin' to help someone on the side of the road... These ate like the pop quizes that we haven't prepared to take. These are teats that test our Faityh, our Love in out fellow man, and our Love in God... I think by this point in life most folks have confronted those "what if" scenerios... I can honetsly say that I don't want any6ones death on my hands... Period... Yeah, let me have 5 minutes with the guy or gal but I ain't gonna kill nobody... Actually, in those five minutes, I might not have to lay a hand on the murderer... Sometimes folks just need to know just how much their actions have hurt other folks... May not be the answer yer looking for, lesblank, but that's the way I feel... In killing a peacemaker last night California din't bring back any of his victims, that is if he actaully killed these folks, whcih isn't the issue... No one sprang back to life like after a movie scene... California is just out one peacemaker... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Ebbie Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM That question, lesblank, reminds me of what a friend said to me in the height of the US civil rights movement. He said, You're going to feel a lot different about it when a black guy points his rifle at you. I said, Believe me- I would feel every bit as bad if it were a white guy. The argument you are using is the old 'Would you want your sister to marry that guy?' or whatever the question of the day is. It is way too easy a rhetorical - and dramatic - thing to ask. In the violent loss of someone you love, feelings of grief and fury and frustration are real. They are to be expected; sometimes one cannot even bear to think of someone having to die like that. The what-ifs are endless. But loss happens. And grief at a violent loss is not the only kind of grief there is- it is very hard to lose someone to disease or accident. In the end, all one can really do is to learn how to deal with it. Just accept that our sympathy too is real. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:51 PM Bill D: I really don't think we can argue that killing is RIGHT in Iraq, but WRONG in certain criminal cases. (and do NOT doubt, that is what some are arguing) Certainly not me. Lesblack: For Ebbie, and Stilly River Sage and Bobert and all the other bleeding heart liberals, what would your feelings be if one close to you had been one of Tookie's four victims ??? The same. Why do you think it would be different? Do you think it should be different? That doesn't sound anything like what I think could reasonably be called "justice", and perhaps that's one of my objections to the death penalty. Turns out that one of the bigger factors as to whether you get the death penalty isn't your own race (fortunately, that's no longer quite so determinative although it may still play a role). It's who you kill!!! If you kill a white person, you're more likely to get the chair (or whatever latest "humane" way we have of killing someone). I hate to say it, but the measure of a crime oughtn't be the "worth" of the person who was killed. Which is why I oppose "victim impact statements": when some homeless wretch is killed, it is every bit as much a tragedy and a crime as when the bank president with a successful and handsome husband and two kids gets killed ... even if no one will stand up to mourn their passing or stand up in court and scream for the pound of flesh. Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM This thread should be retitled, "Tookie's martyrs." What is dead wrong is that 24 years went by before he was executed and this cold-blooded killer was allowed to live and make a new legacy for himself while his victims were not. To be a deterrant, execution after conviction without a doubt should be no more than 4 weeks. That is the way it used to be done, before lawyers turned it into a circus in the courts. An eye for eye as they say all you half-assed Christians. Make up your own rules as you go along. That's the liberal way when it comes to history and morals. This guy Tookie finally paid the price for his evil and now he costs the taxpayers nothing, thankfully. Hey Lil Hawk: Don Firth is just a silly old guy at this point who doesn't get out much anymore and is out of touch with the world except for spending way too much time in front of the computer. bobert on the other hand, is so mentally disturbed, it's scary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:49 PM Booo! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: bobad Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:53 PM Letter From Heaven Mama Cass has dropped some weight and Charlie Parker's clean Django's fingers have both gone straight and they've got driving lessons for James Dean Jimi's playing faster and sometimes we jam all day And old Abe Lincoln is a happy boy 'cause he finally got to see the end of the play chorus: It' a great life here in heaven It's better than the Bible said It's a great life here in heaven It's a great life when you're dead There ain't no egos anywhere and no one talks show biz And Gabriel he's got a great big smile He's taking lessons from Miles and Diz Bing Crosby's on the green in one and he's singing when he putts And Elvis really likes to visit earth just to drive you people nuts chorus And me, I couldn't be happier The service here is fine They've got dinner ready at half past nine And I'm going steady with Patsy Cline And just last night in a bar room I bought Robert Johnson a beer Yeah, I know everybody's always surprised to find him here Bill Morrissey |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:54 PM I'm not scared of what I fully understand, pal. You are so easily pegged. so boo back to you. Consider who is watching you, smoke another joint and get paranoid on a daily basis. Ahh, a day in the life of a bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:08 PM Haha, Marty.... First of all it's been a long time since I smoked anything at all.... And I ain't at all paranoid... I know how to play with adults be they Repubs, Dems, Neo-Cons 'er whatever... I live in an area of the country where a Chicago fool like you wouldn't last a week... No brag, just fact... Yeah, it's prolly very easy fir you to fire away from a'far in an area that is very diverse and tolerant... Get in yer car and drive to Page County, Virginia, or even where I used to live3 in Jefferson Co., Wes Ginny and you'll instantly know that this ol' hillbilly has more actual survival skills that ain't got opne thing to do with being paranoid than anyone from Illionois would ever be able to appreciate... And guess what??? I don't just survive... I thrive livin' with folks that you would most likely find revoltin'... Like I said, no brag, just fact... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM bobert, you need a top hat and cane for your schtick. Why would I want to go to those hillbilly places you frequent and get my butt dicked by some cousin of yours with no teeth? I can listen to WSM Nashville from here and get all of the good country music I want. Besides, your so called tough hillbillies would shit in their pants walking through an alley in chicago. And more than likely, they would not have another pair to change to so they would just continue to stink from both ends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: bobad Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:21 PM I know, I know I'm feeding into the thread diversion but does anyone else think that Bobert and Martin Gibson would make a great TV sitcom, I find them entertaining in the extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: bobad Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:37 PM With appearances by special guest Don Firth. Hey, I feel I'm onto something big here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM Okay, bobad, I'm in... Chicago don't scare me one bit... My folks lived in New York City fir years so I spent a lot of time bombin' 'round New York... Heck, I done my first recording in Brooklyn... I got friends in Queens... No, ain't me gonna get no shakey kneess no matter where I go but, Martin, I'm worried about... You get his little butt down in God's country with the folks you'd think he'd feel all warm and fryuzzy with seein' as most of therm voted fir Bush and guess what??? He gonna be scared to death of these folks... More to gettin' by than just havin' voted fir Bush... City folk don't know nuthuin 'bout that... Martin hang 'round me fir a week down in these parts and he'd never have nuthin' bad to say about me if he lived to be a couple hunner years old... Like I said, no brag, just fact... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: freda underhill Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM My Austrian son-in-law is visiting (with my Australian daughter) and has just told me that there is talk in Austria (a country that is opposed to the death penalty) of taking Arnold Schwarznegger's Austrian citizenship from him, because of his refusal to grant clemency in this case. freda |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:10 PM Well, freda, I think Arnold's human citizenship oughtta be taqken from him... And, if Maria Shriver has any true grit, that ain't thwe only thing that oughtta be taken from this chump... He is a disgracfe to Austria, ot the United Sates, to California and to mankind in general... He's a jerk and I'd like 'bout three good rounds with him if anyone can arrange it... Hey, I win, then he quits... He wins, I kiss his butt on public TV... But he won't go three rounds with this skinny hillbilly 'cuase he is a loser... I am so sorry, Maria... I'd throw the slob out in the streets where he belongs.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: freda underhill Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:20 PM Bobert, I'll get in there with you and mash him. My family on my father's side were boxers (that Irish blood)- and I have a little (very little) karate up my sleeve. Between the two of us...! big hugs for a man with a big heart! (and that's NOT you, Arnie) freda |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:30 AM Arnold will tear you both apart. Lights out, Tookie. bobert, I could have sworn you said that you have friends in queers. Doesn't suprise me with all of your phony tollllllllllllerance. As phony as your writing, bobert. Maybe even phonier. Go brush your tooth, hillbilly. Hah! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:56 AM Bobert: You, Old Guy, are not in the majority... You got any facts to back up your claim? How do you respond to that??? Yeah, opinion polls are showing more and more Americans agi8nsts the death penalty... You got any facts to back up your claim? What are you gonna do... Move to Afganistan, where you canm get the death pernaly for writing an article the says that woman deserve to vote??? George Bush removed the Taliban from power in Afghanistan, thereby eliminating their executions of women accused of adultery. We saw one of those executions taped secretly. We also saw barrels of hands cut off as punishment for theft. You hate George Bush and you are against the war on terror so you must be for the death penalty. You are self conflicted. Well, go on... I'll purchase the airline ticket fir ya'.... I will take you up on that. I wouldn't mind seeing the good work that our military has done there at great personal sacrifice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: kendall Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:54 AM One other aspect of this death penalty is the fact that if a killer flees to a country that has no such punishment, they can, and do, refuse to extridite the bastard back to the USA. A number of you have mentioned losing someone to violence. Who else has lost someone? I lost a cousin and an aunt. (Domestic violence) One was caught on video tape. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,A Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:38 AM Freda, I think your Son-in-law is making up stories. Or you are. "No brag, just fact". Is there anything you have not done? And 68% of Californians are for the death penalty. (they voted) How is that for a so-called Liberal state? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:01 AM Old Guy, Gotta get to work right now but I'll get you the poll um,bers on the death penalty tonight... Also, when it comes to the Taliban being removed from Afganistan, you musy be getting your information from the Fox entertainment and propaganda network... I'll also provide you with some interesting thoughts about Afganistan tonight... Freda, Yer on, and I know my way around a doojoo myself having been married to a 3rd level black belt and karate instructor... It would be fun whuppin' up on the terminator... I still think Maria should leave the creep... Gotta go, Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Big Mick Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:28 AM I have seen the best of Mudcat and the worst of Mudcat. This thread goes more to the latter than the former. We have a fella who is against the death penalty talking about whupping someone. Aside from sounding very foolish, he further goes on and calls a man who brutally murdered folks and bragged about it, who threw acid on guards, and had a death row conversion, a hero. What's wrong with this picture? We have others rejoicing in state sanctioned murder, and acting as if it is fair, even in light of the DNA project of the near recent past. The only folks with any credibility are folks like SunnySister who simply oppose the death penalty. I do as well. Here is why. The maturing of society should equal growth in our laws and our national conscience. The inability to understand that killing someone because they killed someone is insane. Second, it has been shown time and again that this punishment primarily hits folks that can't afford big time lawyers. It is not meted out in an impartial way. I would much rather attack the root causes of the violence, and get the publicity for that cause, than publicity over someone like Tookie. Another problem with it is that there is no way to correct a mistake. Once they are dead, mistakes such as the type that caused the conservative Republican Governor of Illinois to suspend all executions, cannot be rectified. Death penalties, if we are to have them, must have a burden of proof that is beyond all doubt. Spare me all this "Tookie was a hero" horseshit. He was a cold blooded killer. He bragged about the gurgling sound the family made when he shot them in the back. When you tell me that we should weigh his life after his conversion, I say OK, but only if we balance it with his deeds prior. This man started an organization that is responsible for untold misery, and deaths. He broke the law, was convicted by a jury of his peers, and suffered the legal penalty. I would prefer that he be put in a cell with no room to sit down, and be forced to work at hard labor for the rest of his natural life. No TV, no special privileges, and prison fare to eat. That would be a punishment that would be far worse than death. The death penalty is barbaric, doesn't deter anything, is nothing more than revenge, and lessens us all when it applied. To sit here and try and act like this criminal was a hero takes away from the legitimate case against it. And by the way, Bobert, I love ya and all ...... don't care much for Arnold ...... but he would whup yer skinny ass. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:13 AM Once again, Mick, I side with all you've said. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,rarelamb Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:24 AM Woo hoo i'm in! Administators shut down websense this morning :) I can't figure out why this site is considered entertainment but some of the other forums i'm on are not. Oh well.. I'm not sure what the subject of this thread is? If the subject is should Tookie have died, the answer is yes. He was tried and sentenced legally. If the subject is whether or not we should have a death penalty, then my vote is yes. And in MUCH greater numbers. I would propose any sentence with 20 or maybe 15 years with a death penalty. I also agree with another poster that there needs to be a time limit to appeals. Perhaps a seperate judicical committee that would allow one or possibly two appeals within a year. The main complaints that there is no correlation and that the cost is too high is due to the application of the death penalty. Unless there is the political will, there will be neglible benefit. The reality is that there are very few executions. Certainly not enough for the numbers to be nothing more than a rounding error in consolidated criminal statistics. Morally, I take issue with some of the posters. They make a moral state that it would turn us into barbarians or that we would be not better then they. As far as I am concerned, the individual who commits a crime that is so heinous as to deserve 20 years in prison is in my eyes a rabid wolf who needs to be put down. Are all people equal? Absolutely not. If the individual were like you or I then these moral arguements would carry weight. But things are not the same. It is their 'difference' that makes them treated 'differently'. I can't help but to see their arguement sliding into pacificism. If murderers are not worthy of death then who is? What about foreign nations bent on subjugating our population? Are we allowed to defend ourselves? When is it ok to kill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM Why execute people? Just give them some facts and turn Bobert loose on them. They will beg for a swift execution after being subjected to his violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:43 AM This thread is more about Mudcat than it is the death penalty, some things never change.Fuck Tookie, he should have been done in a long time ago, but don't worry, his legacy will go on, his descendants will still require murder as a rite of passage, they will still recruit by force, they will still terrify entire cities and they will still supply drugs to children, not to mention how they treat their "Bitches". So I won't cry for this scumbag murderer, until he cries for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:44 AM An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The world will not end up toothless and blind. Only the victims and the criminals. I don't think Tookie said any prayers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Donuel Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:01 AM a resurection? could it be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Donuel Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:07 AM I know a lot of killers who bragged about things like the yelp black kids would make when they shot them in the head. Some of these folks were policemen and some were veterans. Thankfully none of these braggarts are still employed in the killing business, but they will never be executed for their sanctionsed crimes either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: gnu Date: 14 Dec 05 - 02:06 PM He swore innocence to the end... I wonder if he is sticking to that story with the devil? I wonder if the devil is forgiving him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 14 Dec 05 - 02:15 PM Freda: ... big hugs for a man with a big heart! (and that's NOT you, Arnie) Huh? How do you come to that conclusion? Oooops. Sorry, were you talking about our 'sterling', silver-plated, and thoroughly "for show only" Governator Ahnold???? Please indulge me here on this site, and refer to him by his full name; I want no association to that sagging, muddleheaded, steroid-soaked wind-bag of an impostor of a deliberative person..... Matrin Gibson: Arnold will tear you both apart. Have you seen that sagging bag lately? Seems he's shrivelled a bit (perhaps to Maria's dismay) since they pulled the steroid needle from his veins.... Martin Bigmouth again: bobert, I could have sworn you said that you have friends in queers. So do you. You just don't know it (or admit it). Possibly like you don't admit it in yourself. You do know that the most homophobic makes are the ones that show the most arousal when shown homosexual porn, right? Denial, denial. Maybe that's what makes such people such good Republicans.... ;-) Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 14 Dec 05 - 02:22 PM Old Guy: George Bush removed the Taliban from power in Afghanistan, thereby eliminating their executions of women accused of adultery. We saw one of those executions taped secretly. We also saw barrels of hands cut off as punishment for theft. You misspelled "Dubya's good buddies, the Saudi royal family" and "Saudi Arabia". But news for you, Old Guy: Dubya hasn't removed these repressive people yet. They still stone adulterers to death and cut off hands. On another note, the "emancipation" of women in Afghanistan has had a few setbacks along the way, with the Taliban (still in control in wide swaths) and/or tribal chiefs and warlords giving at best lip-service to the new "freedoms", while in practise, it's almost as difficult nowadays for women to do anything in Afghanistan outside the capitol.... Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: kendall Date: 14 Dec 05 - 02:59 PM That kind of punishment is harsh to us, but, "If you know the dog bites..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Raptor Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:02 PM I think the real crime here is letting people get to know you by the name "Tookie". Raptor P.S. The Crips have Killed millions over the years and Raped thousands in most North American cities.Started by the Tookster himself. Don't act like this guy is a nice guy cause he wrote a few kids books. If I was on death row I'd become Dr. Fuckin Zuess if I thought that might save my ass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,A Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:10 PM It is my conclusion that Freda is correct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Dave the Gnome Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:49 PM I feel the need to throw in my two pen'urth - Says more about me that the subject as well I guess. Whether that's good or bad I don't realy know:-( I am anti-death penalty. Not out of any leftish or liberal ideals - Simply because I don't understand the gain. OK, they won't do it again - Lock them up and throw away the key and they won't do it again either. It can never be a deterant - People don't commit crimes expecting to be caught and punished so how can the sentence deter them? Finaly - Revenge. Yes, I agree with that one and cannot honestly say if anything happened to my loved ones I would not want some served good and cold! I hope I never have to find out but I like to think I could rise above it. A favourite writer of mine once said there are a lot of people who deserve to die and are still alive. There are also a lot of people who deserved to live that are now dead. Who amongst us should decide who should live and who should die? I Agree with Mick as well btw. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Arne Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:12 PM I also agree with Mick (at least to an extent), and for the reasons I mentioned in previous posts. Trying to give a "deterrent" by killing someone once they've already committed the crime doesn't make a whole lotta sense. So I'd guess that the folks so hot up for "deterrence" must be thinking we're going to give some kind of message to the kids in gangs then (and hopefully a different and more uplifting one than "Tookie" WIlliams was giving them). Sounds to me like the message we're conveying to the kids -- in gangs that are rife with the concepts of "honour" and "payback" and "you mess with us, we'll mess with you, you hit one of ours, we'll hit one of yours..." -- is that when a gangmember takes a life, we're going to demand "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Yep, that's the ticket.... Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Raptor Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:27 PM The housekeeping workers in the death row at san quinton were rumored to say " No Tookie No Laundry" Today. Raptor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,A Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:48 PM I basically agree with Mick also. Well, except for the part where he says he loves bobert. What does the death penalty do - it at least prevents a killer from getting out due to escape or a loohole. Plus, the upkeep costs are eliminated. I have never understood the annual cost for maintaining a prisoner. The average person could stay in a decent hotel, eat 3 average meals out and it would not cost as much as it does to keep one imprisoned. I think it was this thread where someone said an inmates appeal are done pro bono. Wrong! Many attorneys make a good living by representing these people. The taxpayers foot the bill. I think he mentioned civil rights cases caused a law firm to fold. Doing pro bono is at the disgression of the law firm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: gnu Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:53 PM I think we could (should?) all agree with Mick, who put it so well. But... if this guy hadn't gone down, the bleeding hearts would have let him out of jail and put him on a soap box, eventually. And I can't agree with that. Maybe if "life" was actually "final"... look at the Canadian system, where victim's families and others have to go, sometimes at great expense, to parole hearings to keep murdering scum in jail a few years longer. (No, not Karla. BTW, why is she out?) There's a piece a shit living just up the road from me that shoulda died for what he did... but he got life... served twenty-five years. He woulda been out in twenty if the victims families had not objected at the hearings... every year for four years. A cold-blooded executioner of two policemen during a kidnapping. He is doing well now, so all can rest easy, except the two families he destroyed. After a couple of elderly friends of mine, country and folk performers BTW, were chopped up last year (one beheaded), I began to favour the death penalty again. But hey, that would be murder, right? Fuckin right. Pass me the sword he used on my friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: kendall Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:12 PM "Bleeding hearts" AAAAARRRRGGGG!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Ebbie Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:13 PM Who is 'Karla', gnu? I |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,A Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:18 PM gnu, I have a sharpening stone if you need it. I understand how you feel. We have the same thing with victims families traveling to parole hearings and still the "life sentence" becomes 25 years. Assuming Tookys' books have had a positive effect (sad that it takes something like that to change an attitude) then perhaps a footnote could be placed in all his books; "The Author of this book was put to death in December, 2005. He has paid the ultimate price for his henious crimes against Society." "Ps, he was not awarded the Nobel Peace prize." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: gnu Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:23 PM Sorry ebbie... a href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bernardo/">Here she is. Sick as she is. Murdered her own sister. And she is out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: gnu Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:24 PM Ooops.... Here she is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: LilyFestre Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:33 PM Let me say upfront that I have not followed this case at all, nor have I read all the posts here...but I've read enough to get the gist of things. I think that anyone who purposefully kills another human being should simply meet the same fate they handed out. I also think the family of the deceased should be allowed some free time with the killer, unsupervised, of course. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: gnu Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:33 PM Here's my buddy Fred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM Ahhhh, first of all, Old Guy, my apologies... I am right in the middle of living in a construction site and most of my files are boxed up and in the barn somehwere... That means I don't have access to the hundreds and hundreds or articles I have cut out of the Wwahington Post... Even, sniff, the story I was going to relate to you about the Afganistani who started a magazine and had an article in it where he said that women deserved the same fundamental rights as men... He was arrested by the same folks who used to be part of the Taliban and is now possibly facing execution for standing up for human rights... I have very slow dial up here in this holler so trying to find the article is like finding a needle in the haystack but it was in an article within the last week in the Washington Post...... The point is that in Afganistan, the areas outside of the cities are falling back into life that more closely resembles the pre-invasion Afganistan, with Islamic extremists calling the shots... Yeah, you can feel free to challenge this premise 'cause I can't get to any of my stuff right now but maybe Ebbie or Dianavan or someone else who has a faster computter and maybe more time can provide a couple links to back this up... Ahhhh, as fir "new ideas" I once offered a program here in Mudcat that wopuld be more of a win-win alternative to not only the death penalty but also incarceration in general... The basic premise of the program wuold be to create public/private partnerships between inmates being part of company/corporation... Not like work release but like prison production plants... No, not making license plates for the state but making dishwashwers, 'er hose reels, 'er widgets... This would do a couple three good things... First, it would create a relationship for ther inmate with a company and so when the inmate has done his time he moves into a jobh waiting for him. Second, it would be a move towards "corrections" which punishment isn't. Third, the wages earned by the inmate could go toward paying "restitution" to the victims of the crime... I've been the victim of crimes and have never felt the system did much to compensate me for my losses... Take a man who has killed someone... That someone might have been the primary bread-winner in the family and now the bread-winner is gone... Hey, if we can get the labor out of the killer and turn that into compensatable wages to the victims we have win-win... Lastly, Big Mick and others... Me and Freda can take Fat Boy Arnold... I may be skinny just as I was back in my karate days but the big guys didn't want to sapr with me then and I don't think Arnold is all that tough... It's all mental... Plus, Freda can grab hold on one leg of Fat Boy and skinny me then can use the ring to embaress Arnold... Bad 'nuff being a Fatso but even worse with only one leg you can get to move... Arnold goes down in two... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:59 PM "After a couple of elderly friends of mine, country and folk performers BTW, were chopped up last year (one beheaded), I began to favour the death penalty again. But hey, that would be murder, right? Fuckin right." That was a tragedy gnu ... they were a super nice couple. This couple had complained to the law about being harassed by this guy a couple of times before, and of course nothing was done. Maybe this creep will get out in 15 years, after writin' a few kids books about how not to get involved with drug crazed skinheads. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:24 PM Ahhhh, seems to me that if this guy was a menace that law enforcment failed... Hey, they knew the guy was a manace... When I was in socail work, all it took was a phone call to a judge, get a "green warrent" and the menace was outta the general population... I know these provisions are still in place in most staes so when I hear folks sayin' stuff like "Hey, there was nuthin' we could do" I think that there's one too many cop in a doughnut shop or one too many socail worker who is so burned out that they don't have the balls to pick up the phone... Most nutballs have social workers somewhere keepin' up the case files... And I', speaking as a former socail worker in Virgina, a very conservative state... Hey, if a nutball can be stopped in Virginia a nutball; can bve stopped on Mars... Just too many folks in law enforcement and social work who have bought into that "My hands are tied" bullfeathers.... BObert BTW, during my years in social work I initiated quite a number of "green warrents" which prolly saved a few lives.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:04 PM So, who's the next evil convicted criminal to get it and deserve it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Beer Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM I'm with you Gnu. Beer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:19 PM "So, who's the next evil convicted criminal to get it and deserve it?" Saddam Hussein ... but then is there any proof of his butchering, or is 'just a victim' himself? Then again, all murdering thugs say they are innocent sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:25 PM Yeah, even if they are presidents... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:28 PM I'm not arguing with that Bobert .... they're just harder to convict. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: David C. Carter Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:47 AM We heard on the news here,that the next guy for the death jab,is blind,in a wheelchair and has already had a heart attack.He sounds really dangerous to me.Better send him off pronto.Set him free and God knows what havoc he's liable to do.Er...what's that somebody said,he wasn't in a wheelchair when he did his nasty deeds?Well well,there's a surprise.Didn't think of that one!What do you do If the guy dies before the date of execution?I bet they'll still give him a jab,just so's the crowd from the sandpit can get their regular orgasms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:36 AM Sweet Hesperus I can't see for the sparks flying off the grinding wheels!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: gnu Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:31 PM No, those are sparks off my heels while I take off outta this thread. See yas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:51 PM It's all been said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:56 PM So mote it be ! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Peace Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:18 PM Bye bye, Tookie, bye bye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: stevenrailing Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:21 PM Good riddance. Killed four people, two innocent elderly folk who posed no threat, did not apologize until recently. Deserves his punishment |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Peace Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM And what difference would an apology have made? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Peace Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM His legacy to the living. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Dec 05 - 07:10 PM Requiring murder as a rite of passage... Somehow that sounds very much like the way the death penalty is seen by some people on this thread. Never mind, America, you've still got China and Iran and a few more like that in your corner when it comes to legal killing. But I don't think there's ever been another country where they keep people locked up for a quarter of a century, and then ritually kill them. As for the Terminator, it sounds like a case of like father, like son. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,Ian Nottingham Date: 15 Dec 05 - 07:31 PM Well they really have excelled themselves today! A 77 year old! I will never set foot in the USA again. Ian Nottingham UK |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Bobert Date: 15 Dec 05 - 07:39 PM Hey, Ian, don't blame the average American... He or she is too busy trying to pay Boss Hog's bill's to have time to give much thought to much of anything else... Please forgive us collectively for we have little or no power to effect change in Boss Hog's so-called "democracy"... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: GUEST,The Greek Date: 17 Jan 06 - 10:50 PM Sorry Dudes, "Tookie" paid the piper for killing of four innocents. Why weren't the protestors for tookie. crying for the lives of the pople he killed? He is just another punk from Compton (where I lived in the 40's and 50's), and he started up a gang of thieves and murders. This empire he started spread throughout the U.S. Then he writes "wonderful" book telling kids to not join gangs. Sorry Punk, too little, to late, you be dead now and with the devil!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: number 6 Date: 17 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM Tookie co-wrote those children's books along with Barbara Cottman Becnel. It appears too much credit has been given to him in being the sole author. He was a gangster, murderer and manipulator without human concience right 'til the end. I'm sure where ever he is he has found true justice. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Once Famous Date: 17 Jan 06 - 11:33 PM Arne, completely untrue. I love women so much it hurts. People who think that they have got others figured out because of what they think about the gay "lifestyle" are the ones, like yourself who are the most threatened by it. So what is your gay agenda, Arne? Gay Olympics, gay travel, gay marriage? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers From: Old Guy Date: 18 Jan 06 - 12:31 AM "a menace that law enforcment failed" Quite the opposite. A menace that the law sucessfully eliminated as per the laws of the land. His gang however is still killing innocents and he refused to do anything to stop that. Bobert, the self appointed spokesman for all Americans, says Bush is worse than Tookie Williams. Before assumes his leadership position, perhaps he should find out some facts. December 08, 2005 Support for Death Penalty Steady at 64% Slightly lower than in recent past by Lydia Saad http://poll.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=20350&pg=1 "Public support for the death penalty has held steady in the past few years, but Gallup's long-term trend indicates that support is significantly lower today than it was through the 1980s and 1990s. The recent debate about the number of innocent people on death row may have been responsible for the slight decline in support in 2000, but it is unclear whether that issue retains as much oomph with the public today." Canada Is not at all stupid on this one: http://www.cpa.ca/ogloff.htm "Despite capital punishment having been abolished in Canada 20 years ago, the majority of Canadians continue to favour the death penalty (approximately 65-75%) have indicated that they would support a return of the death penalty" "In the latest ABCNEWS.com poll, just more than six in 10 Americans favor the death penalty for people convicted of murder" "Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International. Dec. 7-11, 2005. N=1,502 adults nationwide. 12/7-11/05 http://72.14.207.104/u/peoplepress?q=cache:E3X5_g0ZnCIJ:people-press.org/reports/tables/253.pdf+death+penalty&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8 Do you favor or oppose the death penalty for persons convicted of murder?" Favor 62% Oppose 30% Unsure 8%" Also in this poll the group that most favors death penalty for murder is a white male with $50,000-$74,999 income, High School Grad.,30-49 Got any facts to support your position Bobert or just more Bobertisims? |
