Origins: Tramps and Hawkers

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:54 AM

The first Forth bridge was the rail bridge, the second Forth bridge was the Kincardine bridge, the third Forth bridge was the road bridge, so the new bridge will be the fourth Forth bridge. Seems satisfyingly complete somehow!

Sounds as if the Queensferry Bridge Painting Company will be kept even more busy then :-)

The 'Tramps and Hawkers' tune (also used for 'Flora the Lily of the West' and, earlier, 'Caroline of Edinburgh Town') is used in the version of 'Ponchartrain' of which Planxty and, later, Paul Brady, recorded arrangements.

So you are saying that the tune Paul Brady sings to "Lakes of Ponchartrain" is what you call the "Tramps & Hawkers" tune then.

The tune I would call the "Tramps & Hawkers" tune is the one used by (among others) the Dubliners. It's the same tune Ewan MacColl used for his Radio Ballads song "My Little Son". Do you know this tune, and if so, what would you call it? Is it just another tune used for "Tramps & Hawkers", or do you give it a different name (perhaps associated with a different song)?

Just interested to know. I realise that either tune could be used for any of the songs Ponchartrain, Tramps & Hawkers, Paddy West, etc.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:48 AM

The 'fourth' bridge/crossing may be a tunnel!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:41 PM

Well hell. I think you are all learning that everyone does somethings a little more differentlyer. The folk process has many songs with slightly changed melodies being referenced to one primary source. The Streets of Loredo and the St. James Infirmary and A Sailor/Soldier/Trooper Cut Down in His Prime being a good example.

I have heard the "Lakes of Pontchartrain" sung with a few distinct melodies. I can't tell which is righter but it matters little as all were pretty good. There is one Lake Pontchartrain now but that river has been dredged, widened, flooded, leveed and altered over the years
that you need an ariel view to see the other smaller lakes in the region.   These smaller lakes all appear to connect with Pontchartrain which is the second largest salt water Lake in the US.

I have always thought "gatherers a blaw" meant. "People who lived in the open air. such as Tinkers and or Gypsies."

Don

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:54 PM

Going right back to Nov 06 (hey I only just got round to reading it!) when 'oldhippie' gave us the words - I'm not sure about his line *an' places ill tae ken* I learned it from Jimmie McBeath a _very_ long time ago and always sang *places ilk y'ken* as in 'other places you know'
Dave

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scotus
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:12 PM

There's talk of building another bridge over the Forth - so -

The first Forth bridge was the rail bridge, the second Forth bridge was the Kincardine bridge, the third Forth bridge was the road bridge, so the new bridge will be the fourth Forth bridge. Seems satisfyingly complete somehow!

Cheers, Jack

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:56 PM

'Ponchartrain' has several different tunes associated with it. People who have only heard one tend to find that confusing. The 'Tramps and Hawkers' tune (also used for 'Flora the Lily of the West' and, earlier, 'Caroline of Edinburgh Town') is used in the version of 'Ponchartrain' of which Planxty and, later, Paul Brady, recorded arrangements.

These being well-known nowadays, it is usually that tune that people outside the USA mean when they mention it.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:26 PM

I have to say that the tune for "Ponchartrain " as performed by,for example,the Boys of the Lough , isn"t the same as Tramps & Hawkers. I always think that "Paddy West" sounds closer than Ponchartrain, or however you spell it !!

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:40 AM

:D

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:20 AM

Sorry Scrump, 1883-1890.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:13 AM

the Forth Rail Bridge, constructed between 1893 and 1890

So, they built it backwards, starting in the middle and working their way towards the banks :D

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:48 AM

'I helped to build the michty bridge that spans the busy Forth' line is a clue to the date of the song?

Obviously not the Forth Road Bridge (1964) so must be the Forth Rail Bridge, constructed between 1893 and 1890.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 03:00 PM

The late Jim Ringer, a California singer who performed with his wife Mary McCaslin, covered the song years ago.

No, Jim did not "cover" the song. He took the melody and wrote new words to it.

I believe Jim Ringer's song by this name is the "Rose of the San Joaquin"

"The Rose of the San Joaquin" was written by Tom Russell and Ian Tyson.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 11:53 AM

Thanks Effsee - that makes sense and may well be the solution, at least its understandable.

I got both 'rickle' from the Penguin Book of Scottish Verse, don't know where they got it.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:08 AM

Sorry, *rickles*

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 10:00 AM

Buchan & Hall in "The Scottish Folk Singer" have the line :-
"An' aye the rickle o' cairn marks the Hoose o' John o' Groat"
i.e. These house of Jo'G is nothing but piles of rubble.
Listening to Jimmy singing the song it's easy to mishear his pronunciation of "cairn" as "carlin".

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:40 AM

Spot on re 'braxy' ('braxie'), as per SND.

Carline has various meaings, 1. old woman - as in 'Wife of Usher's Well'. 2. witch. 3. the last sheaf of corn. The corn-dolly made with it.

Rickle means 'a heap, pile, carelessly thrown together'. Note 'rickle o' banes (bones) held up wi' string' in 'Coulter's Candy'. In the north east, it's pronounced 'reechle'.

I just can't figure what the two words together mean.

Yes Jim, the Todholm Inn is still there. Having strong Paisley links, I've had lunch there many times.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:47 PM

Hi Big Tim, it's a long time since I was in Paisley but I think the pub was called the Todholm Inn. The Rickle O' Carlin was probably a pile of stones, a cairn, names after someone called Carlin but I don't really know. Mayne someone with more local knowledge could help.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Effsee
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 12:59 PM

From another site.(Mysongbook)

"Braxy is a bacterial infection of sheep, and in those days usually fatal. But it did not affect the flesh, and since only the best and fattest sheep were struck down, to find a newly dead braxy sheep was a find indeed, and a great help to the diet of the lucky family. [It] was said by the pundits that, on finding a dead sheep, the finder should grasp it firmly by the hind legs and swing it round his head. If the legs withstood six full circles, then the sheep was fit to eat. Be that as it may, there is no doubt that a promptly-found braxy sheep was 'wholesome fairin'. Any over-ripe specimens were inclined to stop the breath, but no more so than 'hung' pheasants or grouse, which left a mound of squirming maggots on the larder floor. (Archie Cameron, Bare Feet and Tackety Boots. A Boyhood on Rhum. Luath Press, Barr, p 73)"

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 10:59 AM

Heather was gathered, to sell by itenerant people,and still is. Scrap metal[ bit unlikely].blaeberries were gathered to eat.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 04:57 AM

Thanks for the spelling tip Jim.
In Scots Dictionary 'tod' is defined as 'a fox'.
Come to think of it, there's a Todholm Pub in Paisley!

What about this one from the MacBeath version?

'And aye the Rickle o'Carlin marks the hoose o' John o' Groat'.
What does 'Rickle o' Carlin' mean?

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 07:39 PM

The McBeath set has "blaw" in verse 3, while Stewart has "meal". That would seem to suggest that they both understood the same meaning.

"Toad" might be "toad" (they tend to be brown) or perhaps "tod" (pronounced "toad" or "toäd" in many parts of Scotland and Northern England). I'd think the former more likely, but I suppose it's moot.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 05:31 PM

I knew Jimmy MacBeath and met him many times in the company of Hamish Henderson and Morris Blythman. Nigel Denver learnt the song from Jimmy's singing. I always assumed that blaw referred to what was gathered by itinerent people and ambiguously could mean stories as well as wheat/oatmeal and Jimmy always concurred when this was raised. Tod is the word for a fox not a toad and there are various Scottish folk songs which bear this out.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 12:25 PM

To GUEST,Guest, Big Tim:

Hmm, maybe I'm being naive, but I've always taken 'toad' literally to mean the amphibian of the same name. They're brown enough, I would say.

I think 'blaw' refers to oatmeal, too.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 11:46 AM

Yes 'blaw' can mean 'boast' i.e. 'blow' - as in blow your own horn.                                                            

'Blaw' is used twice in the song,                                    

1.'Ye gaitherers of blaw'.
2. 'Wi' a bag o' blaw upon my back, my face as broon's a toad'.

In neither context does 'boast' make any sense. 'Oatmeal' does.
According to the Scottish National Dictionary 'blaw' is 'tinker's cant for oatmeal'.

What about 'toad'? I've seen it given as meaning 'fox'. But not in the SND.

Any thoughts or ideas on this one?

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:20 PM

The dictionary in the Scots-online website, Wir Ain Lied defines blaw as blow or boast.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 11:27 AM

According to my Scots dictionary 'blaw' is 'oatmeal'.

According to Hamish Henderson, 'Besom Jimmy',or, 'Brechin Jimmy' was a man called Jimmy Henderson. Hamish learned the song from Davie Stewart and thought it was written around the end of the 19th century.

Jimmy MacBeath also sang the song and definitely travelled (and lived for 20 years) in Ireland. So too then, maybe' did Jimmy Henderson.
(See, 'Alias Macalias: writings on songs, folk and literature' by Hamish Henderson. 2nd ed. 1994. btw, a biography of HH is due out soon, by Tim Neat.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Fliss
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 10:48 AM

(http://www.celtic-lyrics.com/forum/index.php?autocom=tclc&code=lyrics&id=406)

Apologies Malcolm it was credited but Id forgotten to put the link clicky

fliss

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 06:53 PM

It's the most unlikely suggestion so far (because of linguistic usage), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

I am likely totally wrong, but the reason I suggested it is that the context makes it possible.

"ablaw" and "oblaw" are mentioned in previous posts, but equally, given oral transmission, why not "o' blaw"? Maybe "blether" was a bit tenuous, but "blaw blaw blaw..." is often used as a term for incessant chatter.

Before the advent of radio and TV and in a era of less than 100% literacy, the various itinerant travellers were important as purveyors of news - especially of tittle tattle. Who was born or died or married, who had given birth, local scandal, the small doings of the celebrities of the day. In fact in many ways they fulfilled the role that the tabloid newspapers fill in todays society.

In that context, interpreting the first line as I did makes, to me, perfect sense.

Incidentally, the recording I have is by Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor who made a couple of very good albums of traditional Scottish songs in the mid 60's

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 06:11 AM

Scrump, According to the record label Luke Kelly learned the song while he was touring with the Dubliners in Scotland.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:32 AM

Yes, Luke Kelly's version is the one I learnt back in the late 1960s (ISTR he recorded it before the version on the Dubliners' first LP, but I can't be sure - anyone know?). The Dubliners also recorded the MacColl song I mentioned above, on the LP Drinkin' & Courtin' - I think Luke sang on that too but again I can't be sure without hearing it.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 05:17 AM

For a folk Site I am amazed that no one has mentioned Luke Kelly`s singing of Tramps and Hawkers, by a long way the best version I have of this song.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:54 AM

The tune I know for The Lakes of Ponchartrain is not the same tune as that normally used for The Homes of Donegal - the latter is the same as Tramps & Hawkers. You could swap the tunes though, as they would fit the lyrics in each case.

But I realise there are probably lots of variations on all these songs and tunes anyway.

Ewan MacColl also used the Tramps & Hawkers tune for a song in the Radio Ballad "Song of a Road" about the building of the M1 motorway (a major highway in the UK). I don't recall the song's title, but it was about a mother singing to her son about his father being away working on the road. See this thread for the lyrics etc.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 04:33 AM

Apologies, if this seems pedantic .. Lake of Ponchartrain, there,s only one lake there.
my money is on blaw, being either a flower like heather, that can be sold or blae berries,[ to be eaten] both of which fit in with the lifestyle of tramps and hawkers.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 08 Nov 06 - 01:31 AM

It's a fine tune alright!

I used it when I recorded "THE LAKES OF PONCHARTRAIN." It might be on a CD one of these days---from Sandy at Folk Legacy. We'll see.

Mary McCaslin will be at he coffeehouse in Princeton, Illinois on Saturday, November 18th. Sure would love to get there.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 09:42 PM

It's the most unlikely suggestion so far (because of linguistic usage), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Didn't anybody ever ask Jimmy or Davy what they meant (assuming either of them understood anything in particular by it)?

MacColl (ref above) glossed Mary Brookbank's "ablaw" as "from everywhere", for what that's worth. "Oblaw" (in the uncredited example mentioned by "Fliss" earlier) is probably a mis-hearing of "ablaw" as heard by somebody on a modern recording of her set; since the people who run that "Celtic lyrics" site couldn't be bothered to say where they got it, we can't be absolutely sure.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 07:19 PM

Is it possible that "bla" is an abbreviation for "blether" which means chatter? So a "gatherer of bla" would be a collector of gossip. At least that is how I have always interpreted it.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 06 - 07:02 AM

how about the versionfrom a Cork singer, come all you tramps and hawker lads and give your ears a blow.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Fliss
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 05:25 PM

I did a trawl about the song. Some versions have...

Oh come all ye tramps and hawker lads ye gatherers oblaw
That tramps the country round and round come listen one and all
(http://www.celtic-lyrics.com/forum/index.php?autocom=tclc&code=lyrics&id=406)

braxie ham (from the argot of the UK travelling people, also "braxy") putrid. In the well-known "Tramps and Hawkers", a "braxie ham" was any type of meat taken from a long-dead animal and purified to some extent by packing it in salt.... uck

I have it on an CD by the Corries.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 02:18 AM

On reflection, Bla could also be Blaeberries,.A berry high in vitamin c and good eating for men of the road, more likely than blawort.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: MartinRyan
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 05:11 PM

The tune is probably best known in Ireland as "The Homes of Donegal".

Regards

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:01 PM

Thanks for the correction, Malcolm. I had had the impression that t The Scottish Folksinger gave an attribution but I didn't bother mentioning it because I have the book packed away somewhere five thousand miles away, and haven't seen it in about twenty years ...

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:52 PM

Iused to sing this song about thirty years ago,.
Ihad a recollection that when I learned the song there was an explanation for bla[ as flower like bog cotton].So I went to my dictionary.
   Behold blawort[blaewort scots ]the harebell the corn bluebottle.
I am just a humble folk singer , not an academic, so forgive me for intruding.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:36 PM

The set in Buchan & Hall, The Scottish Folksinger was from Jimmy McBeath; very close indeed to Davy Stewart's. The word is glossed as 'meal', and the editors add "Often attributed to Besom Jimmy, an Angus hawker of the last [ie 19th] century."

There are some further useful comments, quoted mostly from Hamish Henderson, at http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/c/comeally.html.

The attribution to 'Besom Jimmy' may only be anecdotal; but see http://www.banchory.org/cms/index.php?page=local_history for what is apparently a photo of him; if there was not more than one person by that name.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 01:16 PM

As I recall, a note to the song in a collection called The Scottish Folksinger gave "wheat" as the translation.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 01:13 PM

Blé is wheat (corn in Britain), not flour -- that's farine.

Thanks, Dr. Price; that's not only highly possible, it's also as close to an explanation as I've ever had -- and I first learned this song some 35 years ago.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 12:17 PM

"What in blazes is "bla" and how does one gather it?"

Could it be the French-influenced ble (flour/corn?) France certainly courted Scotland.

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 06:50 AM

thanks

Tom

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 02:39 AM

A nice song to the same tune--"Peggy of Greenlaw".

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: oldhippie
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 08:36 PM

Also on Dave Alvin's new CD, "West of the West"

Subject: RE: tramps and hawkers
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 03:31 PM

Jimmie is alive and well and living in Glasgow.

I believe Jim Ringer's song by this name is the "Rose of the San Joaquin"