It's Our Little Club (comment)

Subject: IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB
From: GUEST,An Observer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM

IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB

Don't they understand, we don't want folk to be popular? We don't want the general public (halfwits) to be interested in OUR music. We hate anyone from the folk world who becomes popular enough to earn a living from OUR music. And we hate any music which isn't folk (and we will decide what IS folk). And we hate festival organisers, (robbing b*st*rds), we hate their concerts, don't want to buy their tickets, but we do want to camp on their festival site (for free). Then we can sit in a nice little pub listening to a lovely person about the size of a jumbo jet, singing, only slightly out of tune. A place where we can drink good ale and complain about how down trodden we are, how unfair the world is, and how THEY are trying to stop us singing in the bar. A place where we can be rustic, people of the earth, before going back to our well paid jobs in IT or HR.

Subject: RE: IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:27 AM

Go back to bed, try getting out the other side when you have had more sleep and eat fish oils rich in Omega 3.

Subject: RE: IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB
From: skipy
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:40 AM

I was born out of wedlock so "bastard" yes, I run a folk festival, you are welcome to examine our books at any time, "robbing" I think not.
Now take folkiedave's advice or go and try to start an arguement somewhere else.
Hope you get better soon.
Skipy

Subject: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,I think I should post this as a GUEST!
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:37 PM

While "an observer" is being deliberately provocative, he (she?) has a point….

Mudcatters (in general) are music snobs; we like our music and will happily eulogise about it until the cows come home, or, to be more truthful until the artist becomes successful and manages to gain a little cross-over appeal to a wider market.
It's a shame that the latest successful artists (at present it's Seth Lakeman, but it's been Kate Rusby in the past), get ripped to pieces on Mudcat – we should all be ashamed.

Much as it seems worthy to support tiny festivals like Miskin do you think these events are going to keep folk music thriving? One look at the websites of these smaller festivals and photographs of the audience profile will give you your answer.

While the success of popular artists and the larger festivals may not be what Mudcatters' want to happen to folk music, without these there's no hope of bringing in a younger audience and keeping folk (in it's many forms) alive.

If a young person is trying to find their way in to folk and they hear Seth/Kate/Bellowhead/Julie Fowlis then it opens a door which may start them off on a journey; give them a June Tabor album and they'll run away and never listen folk again. There's room for everybody, even on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:46 PM

If a young person is trying to find their way in to folk and they hear Seth/Kate/Bellowhead/Julie Fowlis then it opens a door which may start them off on a journey; give them a June Tabor album and they'll run away and never listen folk again. There's room for everybody, even on Mudcat!

And, just to illustrate that all generalities are risky, my 20 year old is really just getting into folk, and MUCH prefers June Tabor to those listed above. People do differ, y'know!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:49 PM

Ignore the 'snobs' and enjoy what you like. No one ever slagged me for saying I like rock, folk-rock, trad, protest, jazz, whatever. And if someone does I tell 'em to take a flying leap to themselves. People like what they like. That's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:51 PM

Oh I think it's safe to say that I can get quite discombobulated when someone fails to live up to my expectations.
"Guilty", your honour.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,I STILL think I should post this as a GUEST!
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:57 PM

DMcG, I was trying to make a point about that there's room for everybody (even young 'upstarts' making a successful career out of it).

After many years as a card carrying folkie, I find June Tabor's voice a little too much for me.....much too much like hard work, music can (and should) be fun!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:01 PM

I was 19 when I heard June Tabor and Maddy Prior - they and an early Christy Moore cassette first brought me to folk. This was in the late 80s - not part of the folk revival, when this music was particularly fashionable, but I still knew it was good.

Let's not underestimate "young people" - they are as disparate a group, with as diverse tastes, as old people.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Seth Laeman or his success - the only issue I ever had was with his song being nominated in a category for which it clearly was not eligible. But as an artist, good luck to him.

Kate Rusby I was a fan of for a long time, but I didn't buy her last couple of CDs because what I heard of them was so stylistically similar to the others she'd made. Nothing against her - again, lovely and talented girl, there's a very big market for what she does, and all the best to her. I just got a bit bored.

Now, artistically someone like Eliza Carthy interests me far more than ether Seth or Kate at this point in all of their respective careers. Eliza has taken risks - some ventures have been more successful than others. But she has balls, and the music she makes manages to be both exciting, innovative, and rooted in the tradition. Look at her collaboration with Salsa Celtica on The Grey Gallito - inspired.

I understand she's currently working on a CD of original material (as she did previously with Angels and Cigarettes). I may like it, I may not; but I admire her for experimenting artistically without selling out, and while remaining one of the most exciting artists in any genre.

And if there is a discussion about that CD eventually, I may well say that I personally don't like it, that it's not to my taste. This is not "unsupportive", nor should it be seen as a personal attack on the artist; criticism and debate are healthy. It's when we are told we MUST like something, or that we are not allowed to enter into debate or criticism of any kind without being branded "moaning minnies" or subjected to some outdated stereotype about tankards and Aran jumpers, that people get pissed off and express more extreme views about some artists than they probably actually hold.

So yeah, there's room for everybody - and I have just as much right to discuss the things I DON'T like as someone else has to discuss the things they do.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: gilly2
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:07 PM

There is nothing wrong with June Tabor though, my 22 year old and 25 year old daughter's appreciate some ( but not all of her music)
As well as all the others.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:15 PM

I'd comment...but...as I've been told so many, many times, this is not 'my club'


Lizzie :0(

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:16 PM

" :0( "

What the hell IS that?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:19 PM

Looks like someone unhappy with a stuffed-up nose perhaps?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM

A sign of a small vocabulary Peace?
G.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:30 PM

I really don't know what it's supposed to be.

Is it this kinda thing? If so, WTF IS it?

@>--;-- A rose
%-6 All Mixed Up
O:-) Angel
0*-) Angel wink - female
0;-) Angel wink - male
:-{ Angry
:-Z Angry face
:-{{ Angry Very
>:-( Annoyed
~:o Baby
~~\8-O Bad-Hair Day
d:-) Baseball
:-) Basic
:-{0 Basic Mustache


I never understood Gregg either.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:36 PM

I'd also like to challenge, while we're at it, this idea that there's a "closed shop" around folk, and especially around traditional music.

I first started getting into folk, as I say, when I was 19/20. That was in California. Most of the folkies I knew at the time were Irish, and were very supportive when I tentatively started singing. Inevitably I started with some very accessible, pubby stuff, but people used to say, "Your voice would sound really nice singing this..." and give me cassettes with songs on that were more traditional. Was I insulted? Did I get the hump? Certainly not - I was grateful that people were sharing their superior knowledge with me. And I learned some great songs. My friend and I used to sing almost the whole of Silly Sisters - me doing the June Tabor harmonies and her doing Maddy! That was my first experience of English music.

Fast forward to the early 90s, when I had settled in England. My first real forays into the folk scene here were in Lichfield, via the Arts Centre and Arts Association. Again, I never encountered any snobbishness about the fact that I was American or that a lot of the music I sang was Irish - people were welcoming and inclusive and I have a lot to be grateful for in that respect. And again, I was consistently introduced to wonderful new music by lovely people who were not trying to "impose" their tastes on me, but instead sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm. I learned a lot. I also wanted to give something back and be more actively involved in supporting the music and the culture, so I started volunteering at events and started a session at a local pub. My involvement grew and deepened over time.

Fast forward to 2007, and I find myself writing in English Dance and Song magazine, running a festival and a folk development project for young people, and invited to join EFDSS's education advisory panel (among other folk-related bits and pieces). Nobody could be more surprised by all of this than me, to be honest. And nowadays, I'm often lumped in with the Folk Police by Lizzie. Given my background, I find this hilarious.

I think the Folk Police are a myth. What I DO think is that when you go into any community with which you are not familiar, there are certain rules of engagement. Firstly, you do a lot more listening than talking for an awfully long time. You accept that you can learn a lot from the people around you, and you ingest that knowledge - in my case, hungrily. I still learn so much from the people I'm lucky enough to have around me.

Secondly, you don't start trying to make the rules within a community or group that was established long before you arrived, nor should you obsessively impose your tastes on them. All of these behaviours are simply antisocial - and regardless of the hobby or enthusiasm in question, the person exhibiting such behaviours would probably be met with rather a cold shoulder.

Now, the easy response to this is to say that folk is a closed shop, and that there are "folk police" patrolling the gates. Well, the point of me sharing my potted history in folk is to say that, if that were really the case, there's no bloody way I'd ever have got in. I'm sure there are many others here who could say the same - we've all found our way here one way or another, and there's no one barring the door.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:43 PM

Hell, Ruth, my songs are closer to rock than they are to folk. I'm doing a folk festival in the summer, and I'll have a good time at it, too. My main job there is to ensure the audience enjoys itself, and that's that. If there are folk police, they missed me. Of course, I'm a colonial, so maybe things atre different here.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:46 PM

When a person is unpopular, and is given a hard time, the majority of people change their outlook and try to fit in.
Some people however are so self centred, that when someone has a go at them for being a twit they think. 'I'm perfect I am, I know everything I do, my taste is impeccable, there can't be anything wrong with me.
I know, it must be the people I like they're attacking, not me, what a load of plebs, they've got no taste. I mean it couldn't be me could it, I'm perfect aren't I ?'

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Shaneo
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM

The annual fleadh cheoil in Ireland attracts half million people each year .
With a mixture of traditional/folk music , it's the biggest concert in the world.
If you have never been, come along and bring an instrument and join in with the many street bands.
This event has a hugh impact on keeping the tradition alive.
It's not just trad. music that's played , every corner of the street folk bands are entertaining the crowds .

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bainbo
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:02 PM

The Folk Police are not a myth!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: growler
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:04 PM

Although I'm a great Kate Rusby fan, it doesn't need her to attract the kids. Come down to Rochester, Kent on the first May bank Holiday, and watch them dance in the street.
Dont judge us as snobs, because we care about what we do, come along and join in, what ever your style, if your not prepared to play, or sing, along with the youngsters in my sessions, perhaps you should look to yourself

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:41 PM

I'm sorry but I don't think that the main priority of folk fans should be to attract 'young people' into folk - and especially not by dumbing it down in order to make it more 'acceptable'. I find this attitude to be not only patronising and insulting to me and my contemporaries but it is also patronising and insulting to young people.

I have to agree with a lot of what Ruth Archer has written above, especially:

"I think the Folk Police are a myth. What I DO think is that when you go into any community with which you are not familiar, there are certain rules of engagement. Firstly, you do a lot more listening than talking for an awfully long time. You accept that you can learn a lot from the people around you, and you ingest that knowledge -"

Spot on, Ruth!

I also agree with RA's comments with regard to Eliza Carthy. Now there is an artist who is steeped in the tradition and is making a determined and credible effort to move it forward (it's debatable whether it needs moving forward - but there you go!). I don't necessarily like everything that Ms. Carthy does but I have enormous respect for her and I watch what she does with interest. If more of the younger people coming into folk were like Ms. Carthy, I, for one, would probably not be such a 'grumpy old git'!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:00 PM

I'm in full agreement with whoever started this thread..(and no..it wasn't me) It's the one thing that worries me at so many gigs I go to (not Seth or Show of Hands, or The Demon Barbers or Bellowhead etc)...that there is hardly ever anyone under 40 in the audience...Sidmouth for instance, in my opinion, needs far more younger people to be drawn in.....and far more younger acts too.

But in answer to this comment...from Happy Go Lucky MacKenzie:


>>>When a person is unpopular, and is given a hard time, the majority of people change their outlook and try to fit in.<<<

Is that about an artist, or a particular poster I wonder? If it's about an artist...well why on earth should they change the way they are, purely because the Folk Police don't like them?

If it's about a poster...well...why on earth should they change the way they are, purely because the Folk Police don't like them?

And again....


>>>When a person is unpopular, and is given a hard time, the majority of people change their outlook and try to fit in.<<<

Really? Personally speaking I never run with the majority.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you like everybody else, means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." ~e.e. cummings

Here you go MacKenzie...a 'Traditional' Jewish proverb:

"If I try to be like him, who will be like me?"

Or..as Judy Garland said...

"Always be a first rate version of yourself, instead of a second rate version of someone else"

That's my girl! ;0)

Personally, I don't want Seth to be like Ewan MacColl...or Bellowhead to be like The Spinners...Nor do I want to be like you MacKenzie, or Ruth either...

Long Live Young Folkies, Open Minded Folkies, Non-Controlling Folkies.
Long Live Free Range Folkies and Free Range Human Beings..

From Ruth:

"I think the Folk Police are a myth. What I DO think is that when you go into any community with which you are not familiar, there are certain rules of engagement. Firstly, you do a lot more listening than talking for an awfully long time. You accept that you can learn a lot from the people around you, and you ingest that knowledge -"

The Folk Police are VERY real, but...they are getting less and less, as the younger generation moves them along...

Rules of engagement??????

Have the Folk Police now got Rules Of Engagement? Gadzooks! Are they now forming an army?

And WHO makes these Rules? Are they Traditional or Non-Traditional Rules?

Were they invented by the First Ploughboy Singer/Songwriter or by Ewan MacColl?

And exactly how long are you supposed to keep quiet for?

Heck..no-one told me I wasn't supposed to say ANYTHING!!!! I just heard the music, fell in love and started writing...

SILLY ME!!!! I didn't read The Terms Of Engagement!

Being a folkie is SOOOOOO complicated isn't it....No wonder I don't fit in! ;0)

Still at least my kids are always the youngest people at some gigs or folk clubs. At least my kids are the er...ONLY kids at some gigs and folk clubs....But nope..that's not part of the rules is it..taking your kids to see folk acts......because apparently I should be sitting in total silence somewhere, reading my "How to be a Masonic Folkie" Handbook, listening, taking notes, bowing and cowtowing, worshipping at The Holy Altar of Ancient Folk and generally being devout and demure...

I need to stop going to the gym. I need to get rid of the highlights, throw the make-up away, stop dancing, stop raving, stop writing, stop loving, stop listening..to the music at least..and just listen to the Folk Police instead...because they and they alone KNOW about folk music...and Crufts...and the right kind of Pedigree that one should have to be either a performer or a member of the audience...

Sheesh..How could I have been SO dumb!

However, things ain't going to change. I'll still love this music, and not bide by your rules or your regulations....because..It's my music too...

So there! :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:11 PM

Lichfield Arts Centre, Ruth?

Good grief, we must know each other! I still go regularly, only it's in the Guildhall now.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:13 PM

So, we're all agreed then?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

>>I'm sorry but I don't think that the main priority of folk fans should be to attract 'young people' into folk - and especially not by dumbing it down in order to make it more 'acceptable'. I find this attitude to be not only patronising and insulting to me and my contemporaries but it is also patronising and insulting to young people<<<


If you don't attract the young people and 'pass it on' then it will die. And young people want to make it their own. It's not dumbing it down. Seth Lakeman is not dumbing music down, far from it,imo. He's making it vibrant, exciting, danceable..all things that so many young people love. They don't want to have it plain, the way some may sing it. They want it with rhythm and dance and excitement. Not all, but a great deal of them at least.

That's not dumbing it down at all. It's just being young.

I saw Devil's Interval last year at Siddy and they were great. But do you know one of the things that made them so lovely to watch? It was Jim...Jim Causley has charisma. He was such charm, that young lad..he's got 'it'...He makes traditional music FUN...he laughs and he's relaxed. It's obvious that he enjoys what he does and that enjoyment reaches out into the audience..

BUT...the audience was all middle aged and beyond. There weren't any youngsters in that room, apart from the three singers...and that saddened me..and enraged me too, because The Devil's Interval should be playing to people of their own age as well.

The folk world has to wake up to this problem.

One way round it is to mix folk music up with more popular music, spread the audience wider, like Cambridge does..that way so many more people will 'give folk a try' I wish that Sidmouth would do this, I truly do...I wish they'd let down their fence of 'English Traditional' etc and open up....because if they do, you watch a far younger audience start to flood in..and when they come they'll taste the English Tradition as well, and some will love it.

Get rid of the 'club' and open up this world to all.......

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

The whole point of my post, Lizzie, is that there are tonnes of us who don't have any kind of "pedigree" who are rubbing along just fine - not excluded, not outcast, but welcomed.

There are also loads of us trying to make folk more accessible to young people. You want to see more young people at Sidmouth Folk Week? Well, you're not the only one. We're working on that at the moment, as it happens - and not just on getting them involved during the festival, but giving kids local to you more opportunities all year round to engage with folk music. That's what us "folk police" get up to in our spare time. I'm sure that you, too, could be helping the cause, should you choose to get out there and get involved.

Who says taking your kids to see folk acts is against the rules? My daughter's been going to gigs and festivals since she was tiny. Loads of folkies take their kids to gigs - it's cheaper than babysitters, after all. Once again, your "folk world" seems to be a parallel universe to the one most of us are experiencing.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John Routledge
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

Heard a wonderful performance by Devil's Interval a couple of weeks ago.

The youngest member of the audience was at least ten years older than the performers and the average age approaching treble that of the performers.

This fact did not seem to concern the singers or indeed the audience.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:28 PM

"I wish they'd let down their fence of 'English Traditional' etc and open up"

Ummm, we ARE talknig about the same Sidmouth, right? The one that was, until 2 years ago, Sidmouth INTERNATIONAL Festival? That has welcomed scores of dance sides and artists from all over the world?

Things may have changed, but Sidmouth 2007 lineup includes:
Quinteto Mambojambo
Bollywood Brass Band
Salsa Celtica
Okavango
Monobloco

Not to mention all the Welsh, Irish and Scottish music on offer...

The English Traditional fence at Sidmouth seems as much a mirage as the folk police...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:39 PM

Chris, I was there 92-93. Was there for the closing of the Arts Centre and the move to the Guildhall. Sang with Chris Edwards for a while, if that helps. Had friends in the Rykneld Rabble and sat on many a concert and festival door selling tickets with my daughter in her pram next to me!

She was usually wearing a pink hat, if that helps...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:40 PM

I take my kids because they want to go Ruth, not because I do or ever have needed babysitters. They're 12 and 20 now and come purely because they want to...and always have done.

Great to hear you're getting involved in Siddy too now Ruth. Well done!

But it so isn't MY folk world. I just made the horrendous error of liking folk music, then writing about it, without permission of The Elders.

It's YOUR world Ruth, not mine. But the music is mine.

My folk world is that of Show of Hands....and The Albion Chronicles.

They have No Rules of Engagement. No silences. No Handbooks. No Unpleasantness. No spitefulness.

Just warmth, a thousand paths to go down, open minds and open hearts...

Helluva difference to what goes on in here...and on the BBC.

Shame on 'your' folk world.

If it doesn't change...it may eventually self-destruct.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:49 PM

Saw Kepa Junkera, Berenguetto and Susanna Seivane at Sidmouth just to mention 3 of my favourite Spanish bands. Fabulous bands loads of young people in to see them.

When I went to the LNE it was packed with young people. The last time was in 2004. I have not been since. LNE is probably a bit late for you to be out Mrs. Route.

I have noticed loads of young people at festival but they tend to dance nowadays instead of sitting and listening to people sing. It's the way of the world. Ever been to IVFDF? It was in Exeter in 2004. Surely that isn't far for you? The Sheffield event a year earlier was a huge sell out.

So tell us about the events you have organised and how they have contributed to the inspiration of young people. Or do you simply gush?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM

I'm sure your family has a steadfast and admirable dedication to folk music, Lizzie. Having said that, you, and by extension I presume your children, only discovered folk a couple of years ago, so it's not surprising they got a say in whether they wanted to go along to gigs. When my daughter was 6 months old, you see, she couldn't really express a preference. Of course, now she's 13, I got dragged along to an Emo gig a few months ago - payback's a bitch.

Yeah, shame on my folk world - where you do what you can to try and help. Shame on me. You've moaned about there not being enough young people at Sidmouth - I've explained that there are people, including me, who are trying to do something about it. But somehow your version of the folk world is its salvation, while mine is its destruction? Interestng logic, asd always.

The Elders are in your head, Lizzie. Look around you. Lots of people share their enthusiasms, without winding people up. It may serve you to believe that there is some self-appointed guard dedicated to keeping the likes of you out - but that's a convenient way of avoiding having to examine your own actions, and your own culpability, in this whole sorry mess.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM

Well Mrs Route it looks as if you are getting close to dummy throwing time again.

I love people who write about folk music. I have magazines here within inches of where I am sat going back to 1961. Ballad and Song, Folk Roundabout, Folk Scene, Folk Review, EFDSS magazines, Chapbook, first ever edition of Living Tradition, etc. etc.

What people object to is repetitive writing, (Show of Hands, Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands, Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands Seth Lakeman Show of Hands, Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands Seth Lakeman): copywrite material being presented without acknowledgement (The Albion Chronicles); and people who are so far up their own arse they haven't got a clue.

That's all.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:11 PM

John, in my book, they should be worried....The Devil's Interval should be playing to a mixture of ALL ages....What's going to happen when the older audiences move on to er...elsewhere?

The mix isn't right in the English folk world. It needs far more young people in the audience...and one thing, I think, that keeps them away is the kind of supercilious, obsessive, train-spotter attitude that's certainly followed me around for years.

From Shaneo:
>>>>The annual fleadh cheoil in Ireland attracts half million people each year. With a mixture of traditional/folk music , it's the biggest concert in the world. If you have never been, come along and bring an instrument and join in with the many street bands.
This event has a hugh impact on keeping the tradition alive.
It's not just trad. music that's played , every corner of the street folk bands are entertaining the crowds .<<<<

Half a MILLION people? That's AMAZING!

So...what are the Irish doing right, that we're doing wrong then?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:15 PM

I've not noticed the folkie population in NS to be particularly antique - plenty of young people. The Bluegrass crowd tends to be a bit older, but I've seen that changing in the past couple years: more young 'uns, sometimes with kidlets.

Tastes in music cycle, I suspect, like everything else in the world.

And I've not seen any particular 'bashing' of one performer over another, just discussion of likes and dislikes, and considerable argument over 'what is folk/trad/derived' and so on, which is the sort of musical argument that's been going on forever - ask Mozart's ghost. I imagine Bearkiller of the Third Cave From the River grumbled that Drumbeater's kids were adding funny noises to the Hunt Drums with their damn bone whistles, while others in the tribe dug the New Sound.

I have never met the Folk Police.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Wel,, lizzie, I don't sctually see evidence of them being kept away. As Dave says, there are are a hell of a lot of young people attending ceilidhs at the moment. Sheffield has a robust student cutlture that's into folk dance, as does Manchester. Maybe you need to get out of your region a little more to get the bigger picture. So these young peeople aren't being put off by a "supercilious, obsessive, train-spotter attitude"...maybe it's just you.

"So...what are the Irish doing right, that we're doing wrong then?"

If you read the recent issue of English Dance and Song, you'd know the answer to this question: pouring several million pounds a year into traditional artforms. Funding a new centre for traditional music in Dublin. Acknowledging within government the significance of Irish traditional culture, both for its inherent value and for the economic benefit it brings through tourism.

That's what.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:45 PM

Good question Mrs Route.

What happened last time?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

Oh Dave..you can insult deeper than that surely?

I've written about more acts than you've thrown insults at me...I've only written about Seth on here recently though...and Show of Hands..but then...heck..it's getting excitin' an' all..Easter not far away now and their RAH gig just around the corner!

>>>>Ever been to IVFDF?<<<<

Good Lordy...I'm already blessed with two children! But thanks for the offer Dave! ;0)

Sorry...humour creeping in there, I do so apologise...

OK..serious face again...after all this IS folk music...

>>>>So tell us about the events you have organised and how they have contributed to the inspiration of young people. Or do you simply gush?<<<<

I gush. But not simply. I gush...Overwhelmingly! :0) And I have been known, on the very odd occasion, to inspire, just now and again....That's what I do Dave...Gush...I have a Degree in Gushing....but it was folk music that made me Gush...never Gushed before anywhere...

I don't organise...Hopeless at that...but I do always try and support folk that do....hence I gush about Beautiful Days, Dartmoor Festy, Otley Festy, Britfolk, Sidmouth, Folkwaves etc..etc...etc...That's my contribution...Or at least...it was...

I won't tell you about my Seth Gush going on another site then 'cos you'll probably blow a gasket....or being asked by someone else to gushfor them either....Woops! ;0) (Don't panic, I told them I was unable to at present, but I was very chuffed to be asked) Haven't you got any Folk On Tap Dave? That was my favourite....Lovely magazine Folk on Tap...

Ruth...I'm very pleased that you're now helping to save Sidmouth, I really am. Shame you weren't around to tip-tap all about it a few years back....Heck, you could of joined me in fending off your pal Diane, who did so much to cause unrest and disruption about it all...A great shame. Still, at least this year you can tell everyone on the BBC all about it, on my behalf.

If you get stuck, there's 15,000 gushing words about Sidmouth 2005 on my Myspace page that you can refer to. I'll look forward to reading your review. I won't be writing about Siddy this year...or anything else...so the BBC could do with a few more words I expect.

>>But somehow your version of the folk world is its salvation, while mine is its destruction? Interestng logic, asd always.<<

Noooo..not at all....I never said that I'm 'saving the folk world'....ever....you said that. Besides....everyone knows Seth and Show of Hands are doing that.....John Tams too and Coope Boyes and Simpson and Bob Fox and Jez Lowe and Jim Moray and that gorgeous Jim Causley as well....and The Fabulous Witches and The Demons....

And I never said you're destroying it either, you said that...I just took exception to one thing you said about Show of Hands in that you'd 'rather have pins stuck in your eyes than listen to them'...And you've been on my back ever since..me deario....

Hope you've got your ear plugs and some stout goggles though....because Show of Hands are coming to Sidmouth this year. YIPPPPEEE!

And...I've no doubt they'll be the first to sell out at The Ham as well and bring in the crowds..of ALL ages! It's great to see that Show of Hands audience is getting more and more young people in it nowadays....Just like Seth, The Demon Barbers, Bellowhead et al...Show of Hands are the way forward.

:0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:10 PM

>>If you read the recent issue of English Dance and Song, you'd know the answer to this question: pouring several million pounds a year into traditional artforms. Funding a new centre for traditional music in Dublin. Acknowledging within government the significance of Irish traditional culture, both for its inherent value and for the economic benefit it brings through tourism.

That's what.<<<


Hmmmm....but it's deeper than just money isn't it. The Irish LOVE their music. It's 'in their blood'....like the Scots...Back to 'Roots' here....damn it...and Show of Hands too! Sorry about that chaps....just kind of happened... ;0)

ROOTS


The Irish had it always, the love of their music, they've never let it go, neither have the Scots. It's The English who should be pouring money into it...They don't though....although.....

You know....it's such a shame that more of you weren't behind 'Roots' in a way..because that song has the power to change many attitudes about English music, dance, traditions and heritage. Who knows, if it had been 'allowed' out on mainstream radio, it may even have reached the ears of some politicians, who may have been moved to do something about it all, by putting money into the right kind of English Culture...

But nope....because it was a song from Show of Hands...down flew the vultures.....kicking and screaming....

Ah well...

Far better to some, to never miss an opportunity to put the boot into SoH I suppose, rather than support a song that has the power to support English Tradition and Song....

Perhaps you could ring up the editors of English Dance and Song, Ruth and get them to do a feature on it shortly....

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:20 PM

If there is a Folk Police, they're doing a lousy job. Now, on the other hand, the Pop Police have succeeded beyond all expectations in eliminating traditional music from the radio, television and even from many folk festivals.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM

Mrs. Route, you have come to folk music late in your life.

I was going to Ireland in the 60's when the Irish were ignoring their traditional music.

I am half-Scottish. My mother was born in the Orkney Islands. The Scots ignored their traditional music for decades.

The reason folk music has had a great revival in these countries was because it had been oppressed.

So Ruth and Diane and all the others who write on these boards including me are all part of a movement to oppress English folk music, so it will rise again.

And to all the correspondents who have been keeping this secret from Mrs. Route all this time and on this and other message boards I am sorry - I just couldn't put up with her ignorant ramblings any longer.

See Mrs Route, we are oppressing folk music in England like it was in Scotland and Ireland to ensure its revival. Now surely that is not too difficult a concept for you?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM

"Perhaps you could ring up the editors of English Dance and Song, Ruth and get them to do a feature on it shortly.... "

Good lord. On so many levels.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:15 PM

I seem to remember various Scots coming to Cape Breton in the sixties and seventies in order to reclaim certain lost aspects of their own folk culture...

One of the many reasons I read Mudcat is to make note of the names of performers who are favoured by 'catters, be they UK, NA, or AUS, because I usually find something to like myself. I often manage to hear these performers on CBC Folkroots, along with many great Canadian folk artists (as an aside, it's curious that as a Canadian, I seem to have heard far, far more UK folk music than UK folks have heard Canadian). I'm quite curious about Show of Hands, since they are much talked about, but alas, their website loads only their name after fourteen long dialup minutes, and they don't seem to have made it to Folkroots.

Y'all should just come attend the Stan Rogers Festival this summer, and the Lunenburg Folk Festival, and hit Celtic Colours in CB in October. Blow all the quarrelsomes outta yer brains...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:53 PM

Bee:
    You said:-
"I seem to remember various Scots coming to Cape Breton in the sixties and seventies in order to reclaim certain lost aspects of their own folk culture..."
Tell me a little more about that, will you? I wasn't aware of it.

I'll agree with you on the "Stan" & "Lunenburg" festivals but not so much of a "Celtic Colours" fan.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 10:12 PM

"The Irish LOVE their music. It's 'in their blood'....like the Scots..."


Boy! is somebody out of touch with the real world!!!!

what with me having Irish and Scotish ancestery and all....

"The Scots ignored their traditional music for decades."

So did the Irish - now they both use it as a money making thing.... to make money from the stupid Englsh! (Oh, and the Yanks!)

:-)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 10:18 PM

Jimlad, I'm no expert on the subject, but I was around Celtic style musicians a lot during the seventies and eighties. I've had some long conversations with both Scottish and American Celtic Studies scholars (U of Edin., Harvard U.). I worked six years for a Nova Scotia Scottish/Celtic magazine which highlighted music, bards, history and genealogy. I'm a Cape Bretoner, as well, never far from the Gaelic even if you can only speak a few words. There was a lot of crossing back and forth from Scotland for a time. Fiddling, piping, and stepdancing were all considered to have retained an older tradition in CB, besides evolving on their own. Scots Gaelic language itself took back words that only survived in CB. Cape Breton was viewed as a kind of anthropological Lost World of prehistoric Scottish culture.

All verra interestin', although I could not forget my gentle Dad's comment from many years before, upon seeing some Sydney upper crust greeting a visiting 'clan chief': "Look at them, fawning on that person, who never cared for them in the past and never will." He spoke with bitterness, and he was already three generations away from Benbecula.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 10:59 PM

Interesting stuff. Now was it a priest in Glendale who caused the resurgence in Cape Breton or have I got the wrong town? I seem to remember driving Sandy McLean there after a party in Creignish, one morning.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 11:07 PM

I've received complaints about this thread, but I see no reason to shut it down. Maybe that's because I don't understand what you Brits talk about half the time.
Whatever the case, please try to be civil. Talk about the subject, not about each other.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 11:12 PM

Thanks Joe: I'll do my best but I thought that "Brittish" thing was a bit low. I'm Scottish you know..

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 11:43 PM

Craigmore. That's where the party was. And I drove somebody home in the morning.
Bee: I just found this article...

(((Central to the story of Glendale is the figure of Father John Angus Rankin, a priest with a love of Scottish music who served the community for thirty-five years. While in Glendale he organized step dance and square dance classes for children, taught Gaelic classes, and annually said mass in Gaelic at St. Margaret's Church atop the mountain at River Denys.

In 1972, Ron MacInnis of the CBC produced a movie called "The Vanishing Cape Breton Fiddle", conveying the message that this art was in a state of decline and could die out. Reaction was swift, and Cape Bretoners were shaken out of their complacency. As a staunch supporter of traditional fiddling, Father Rankin organized and directed a three day Fiddle Festival in 1973 that featured over one hundred and twenty Cape Breton fiddlers.

Many people say that he was the driving force behind the resurgence of traditional Scottish music in Cape Breton.)))


I played at that festival once and had a great time. They somehow manage to include as many locals as possible.

Now to those who may think I was going off topic, just for the sake of a yarn; here's where I'm going with this.
What Fr. Rankin did was to restore the music, songs and dancing which was once part of the fabric of Cape Breton life and to bring it back into their daily lives. What he salvaged is what I consider to be "Folk".
I don't particularly like what a lot of the younger ones are into but that's just me. I don't call it folk and truth be known, they probably don't either.
As far as "Folkies" being mostly forty and up? Probably true so next year we should have a few more recruits.
Don't most of us here share the same fatal attraction for lost causes?
Enjoy it. This is what we signed up for.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:09 AM

This is all interesting stuff: one of the things I didn't mention when I was talking about my own introduction to folk is that in the 80s, when i was in California, I lived with a family who had been responsible for starting the Irish Arts Centre in New York, and then the Celtic Arts Centre in Los Angeles. They owned a farm in Cape Breton, and used to go there each summer, taking along whoever wanted to come, to work, play music, and absorb the astonishing culture which survived there. It's one of my great regrets that I didn't go - what with working and all, it was a case of, "There'll always be next year..." And of course I never made it.

What I didn't realise was that this was, in itself, something of a revival culture. It was presented to me as an extraordinary case of survival. It's interesting to think about how many traditional cultures (not just in Britain but around the world) which appear to be spontaneously thriving, have, in their histories, some level of interventionism. One even wonders what the state of English folk culture would be today without "folk police" like Cecil Sharp and his ilk.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:56 AM

>>One even wonders what the state of English folk culture would be today without "folk police" like Cecil Sharp and his ilk.<<


I don't think Cecil was in the folk police. He was just a collecter, albeit an avid one. However, I think that some of the people who then 'surrounded' his songs became, and are still, more than a little er...controlling. Perhaps?

In fact, I'm sure Cecil would be thrilled to bits with what Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, Ashley Hutchings and Show of Hands have done for folk/roots music...unlike those who stood up and screamed at Fairport "This isn't folk music!" and who continue to do that today with other musicians/bands etc...despite the fact that they're bringing in thousands of people and ensuring the continuation of folk/roots music. :0)

Cecil and Ashley



Bee....Show of Hands, don't know if these will load up any easier, sorry you're having trouble.

The first site is from Sam, who also created The Albion Chronicles. and many, many other sites about England, her music and traditions.

Show of Hands

Show of Hands Myspace

SoH went to Edmonton and Calgary Festivals last year too, where they went down very well, so hopefully, they may well be back that way again.

Show of Hands interview from Calgary

AND...they recently won the new 'Greatest Ever Devonians' Award, for helping to give The West Country back it's roots. They even beat Sir Francis Drake into second place...although as Steve Knightley now jokes, this is probably only due to the fact that Drake has given up gigging.. ;0)

The Greatest Ever Devonians :0)

Hope some of those load up and that you enjoy them. Each to their own though.

Oh...and it's the first I ever knew that the Scots and Irish 'gave up' on their music.


Hmmmmmmmm........

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:18 AM

It must be something in the water in the south west of England!
G

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,The Observer Returns
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:31 AM

It's a love/hate relationship I have with folkies. I enjoy their company, if I had to pick a group of people to be marooned on a desert island with, I would choose folkies. They are intelligent (usually), caring (mostly) interesting, good humoured and great fun to be with. Then I read some of these threads and they get so far up their own arses, it drives me mad.
I was feeling a bit bilious yesterday and so folkiedaves comment telling me to go back to bed made me laugh. Thank you. I'll try to dream up more provocative threads (it shouldn't be difficult).

The Observer

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:35 AM

Dear Lizzie Cornish,

While you were shouting at the top of your voice and ranting nonsense, I wonder if you caught the following post from Dick Greenhaus:

"If there is a Folk Police, they're doing a lousy job. Now, on the other hand, the Pop Police have succeeded beyond all expectations in eliminating traditional music from the radio, television and even from many folk festivals."

Probably not, wise Mr Greehaus was probably wasting his breath on you, but he does get to the REAL heart of the problem, in far fewer words than you seem to be able to manage.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:36 AM

There isn't a vacancy on Mudcat for a starter of provocative threads, we are already over supplied in that department!

¦¬)

G

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:53 AM

Rochester Sweeps is not on Mayday this year, but takes place on the bank holiday weekend that does not include Mayday but follows it. So treat Simon's invitation above to visit with care.

I hope my daughter will be singing in some of the sings. She's been doing that since she was 8 and she's 23 now, so I also hope that's young enough. She comes back south most years for the purpose, and usually brings a guitarist or two with her.

Last year she brought a carefully researched unusual but still traditional version of "the Maid on the Shore" with a killer guitarist (ex guitar institute) that just knocked them dead.

So, no Lizzie, I don't think folk is dead, but I don't think it will appeal to the lowest common denominator today. It requires some ability to see beyond the immediate. "Wiggly Music" as a clubbing friend of my daughter's calls it works fine on the region between the thighs, but some of us like music that satisfies the region between the ears too. If the two coincide, lucky you.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:56 AM

>>>It must be something in the water in the south west of England!<<<

Yup! It's called....PASSION! ;0) And....it's enough to make your kilt stand on end MacKenzie..for all sorts of reasons! :0) However, unlike your part of the world, we don't need to have it added to our water, as we've got The Greatest Ever Devonians, Seth Lakeman and Jim Causley in our airspace and we can breathe them all in whenever we want. :0)




"If there is a Folk Police, they're doing a lousy job. Now, on the other hand, the Pop Police have succeeded beyond all expectations in eliminating traditional music from the radio, television and even from many folk festivals."

No Dear Shimmy, I didn't miss that comment. I just didn't agree with it. I used to write er quite a bit about folk music, but the folk police have done away with all of that...mainly because I apparently used to write about the 'wrong' type of folk music, slam the BBC for not playing it, and rant and rage that so much talent gets overlooked. whilst the BBC seem to be intent on playing Lionel Ritchie and Cliff Richard for eternity!

Ho hum...sometimes, a girl just can't win can she? ;0)

Now if I'd been one of Dick Gaughan's Girlies, I'd have been safe...or written about The English Acoustic Collective or Waterson Carthy, but I chose to write about others...and well...it just ain't done I'm afraid...so..'Off With Her Head' an' all. ;0)

It's called suppression and the folk police are experts at it, in my humble opinion of course. :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:03 AM

>>>"Wiggly Music" as a clubbing friend of my daughter's calls it works fine on the region between the thighs, but some of us like music that satisfies the region between the ears too. If the two coincide, lucky you. <<<


Good Lawdy Richard! My eyes have crossed!

Now you see, the thing is..and this is an interesting point...I discovered...in some folk music...a music that did EXACTLY that!
Yup...it reached 'the parts that other music cannot reach' because..not only does it enrich er...the wiggly parts...but it enriches the soul too!

And THAT is why I went on the BBC board for the first time ever, way, way back..Because I was so enraged that this music was being 'hidden'...and sadly, that's when I was first 'set upon' by the folk police and they've never gone away....

Still...at least there'll be no more of that disgusting business over on the BBC. No more wiggling, or giggling or Girlies or Swooning over Morris Boysies...All quite disgusting stuff and way to airy fairy for this small serious narrow minded section of the folk world.

But once upon a time...it touched my soul...and I wrote about it in just that way. It still does touch my soul...but now I have been silenced....

Never mind, at least I can come over here now and chatter to you all instead of you having to come over to the BBC and er 'chatter' to me.

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:10 AM

"but now I have been silenced"

You could have fooled me!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:52 AM

"You could have fooled me!"

Somebody has certainly been fooling someone!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:22 AM

"I don't think Cecil was in the folk police. He was just a collecter, albeit an avid one"
Hmmm ... methinks you know very little of the subject in that case Lizzie ... damned by your own words. Some would very definitely say that Cecil WAS the Commissioner of the first Folk Police. Do you know anything at all about the schisms and fights in the "folk" collecting world in the early 1900's at all? I somehow doubt it -

You keep pronouncing on the fact that... our music is dying out ... if the youngsters don't take it on board then....etc etc A very Victorian attitude! The early folk song collectors in the mid 19th century were all of the opinion that the music was dying out with the old people (a lot of them actually younger than the collectors themselves!!) who sang the songs. Strangely enough, here we are discussing the same thing over 125 years later ... and lo and behold the music's still here, undergoing the same sort of changes that it did then. It's far more resilient than you give it credit for. However, no matter what you may wish to do for it, you can't force people to like it. It is, and it always has been a minority interest, except for the odd peaking burst of interest which arises every so often... for instance, the Edwardian era saw folk song bursting forth on the concert stage in programmes interspersed with classical pieces (with piano arrangements of course) - for instance Dame Clara Butt included a version of "The Keys of Heaven" in her repertoire - good grief, maybe she was the Seth Lakeman of her day???

"Still...at least there'll be no more of that disgusting business over on the BBC. No more wiggling, or giggling or Girlies or Swooning over Morris Boysies…"
All of which demeans the music and the customs that those of us who were already here on these boards ,and discussing the music which we love, are strongly drawn to - the music and the dance are fun and so are the people that play/do it, but it doesn't have to be reduced to a puerile state of faddy teenie bop adulation - so hooray for that!

What you patently seem to ignore (despite being told more than once) is that those of us who are already here on these boards have already "found" the music which you keep gushing about … we don't need to be told how wonderful it is - we already know!

"All quite disgusting stuff and way to (sic) airy fairy for this small serious narrow minded section of the folk world."
Dearie me - so far I've found many of these fictitious folk police to be extremely great fun, friendly, and warm people…. could it be something you've done Lizzie???

The promised silence (yawn) would be lovely… I'll look forward to it when it arrives. Wake me up when that happens someone, would you?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:26 AM

">>One even wonders what the state of English folk culture would be today without "folk police" like Cecil Sharp and his ilk.<<


I don't think Cecil was in the folk police. He was just a collecter, albeit an avid one."

Lizzie, you need to brush up on your folk history. Sharp had very prescriptive ideas about folk music and dance. I don't know where you got this idea that he's have been "thrilled to bits" with the like of Fairport and SoH - his approach was all about preserving the tradition in an untainted form. If that ain't folk police, what is? Look at his fall-out with Mary Neal. She had a relaxed approiach to her Esperance girls developing the morris dances they'd learned, while Sharp's approach was all about tradition, discipline and uniformity. He thought that the dances should remain exactly as he collected them, without development.

So let's hear it for Cecil Sharp: the first chief of the folk police. On the other hand, of course, we wouldn't have many of the songs and the dances without him.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:28 AM

I hereby publicly reserve the term "The Folk Police" to use for my next group... we are gonna wear those little costume black British Bobby hats... and probably fake black moustaches too!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:28 AM

Snap, Bystander!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:35 AM

Great minds think alike?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:38 AM

Hooray for 'Bystander' - thoughtful, articulate and well-informed - unlike some people I could mention!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:40 AM

Jimlad and Ruth Archer: it's true there was quite an effort at revival, but there already was 'survival'. I was a child in the fifties and sixties. My grandmother attended 'The Mod' every year during that time, that I remember; she was a Gaelic speaker and loved the event. Sunday afternoons at our home were considered a bit unbearable by us kids, because 'The Galligackits' were on the radio for an hour, old fellas singing and speaking Gaelic, which my Dad loved to listen to, and then we had to go to church! And there were plenty fiddlers around before Fr. Rankin 'revived' 'em.

Up the road were a few families who didn't speak English, or not much of it. I was the same age as one boy who didn't start school until he was seven (1958), and he spoke no English at all. My Grandmother, who was a teacher, took him into her class and taught him until he could manage the English. Three of my grandparents were Gaelic speakers.

Glendale, when I was a visitor there around 1980 or 81, appeared to be inhabited by more American Celtic scholars (very pleasant ones, to be sure) than local people, but that impression was no doubt fueled by hanging about with musicians.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:50 AM

So as with many revivals, Bee, it was a bit of survival and a bit of revival...that makes sense. Thank you.

Lizzie, I'm not surprised that your link from Albion Heart didn't really give you the full picture about Sharp's controversial reputation - the text would appear to have been lifted from this website:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/hazelmere/sharp/history.htm#Cecil%20Sharp

which seems to have been put together for this event:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/hazelmere/sharp/

Admittedly there's no attribution on the Albion Heart page, so I can understand why you might have been under the misapprehension that Sam wrote it.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:59 AM

Sorry - I forgot to add the main point! Which is that a couple of paragraphs originally put together for a one-off event are not going to give you the full biographical picture on someone as colourful and interesting as Sharp. So it might be a good idea to seek out some sources which delve a little deeper than the Albion Heart page if you want to really find out who Sharp was.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:01 AM

When in 1903 Sharp 'discovered' so much new folksong material in Somerset........ In a way he was a 'johnny-come-lately'.......

From David Sutcliffe's page on Sharp here

My! Oh! my! I never realised Sharp and Mrs. Route had so much in common.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:02 AM

Hey - that link looks familiar Ruth! I haven't checked it out, but I'd be guessing that that was the blurb for the Cecil Sharp conference in Ilminster a few years ago. Interesting conference - I woz there!!!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:02 AM

I didn't mean to downplay Father Rankin's work, btw, just wanted to correct any impression that the culture was artificially recreated. I'm trying to remember if this was the same priest who wrote a highly interesting history of my area, including a lot of genealogy. I don't know how accurate he was otherwise, but he managed to attribute my brother's children to my uncle, and leave out my father entirely.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:06 AM

Forgot to say thanks to Shimrod - your words are much appreciated!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:11 AM

AS I WAS A-PRACTICING…                  Tune: 'Streets of Laredo'

As I was a-practicing 'Stairway to Heaven',
As I was a-practicing Zeppelin one day,
I turned up the volume to way past eleven,
Plugged in my old Fender and started to play.

Then forty bars in, I came to my senses,
Playing this stuff is a bit of a joke,
I ought to be out in a pub in the country,
I know I'll be happier playing some folk.

So I sold my electric and bought an acoustic,
Learned some new chords, C, G7, A,
I listened to records by Carthy and Swarbrick,
And found an old folk song I wanted to play.

So I learnt all the words of this famous old folk song,
All about fishermen out on the sea,
Then proudly I carried my nice new acoustic,
To a pub where the music was legendary.

I sat down by the fire with the rest of the players,
Suddenly everyone's glaring at me,
'You can't have that chair, it's reserved for old Charley,
He's sat there each night since 1903.'

So I sat down again at the end of the bar-room,
Waited my time to join in and play,
It got to my turn so I got up and started
My song about fishermen out in the bay.

I finished my song and I sat down to silence,
Somebody said, 'Can't you play it in A?
In the seventeenth verse you sang 'nets', we sing 'rigging',
And we play it slower 'cos we like it that way.'

And the chorus we play is a little bit different,
But ours is the right one, and yours is just wrong,
You can't come in here with your brand new acoustic,
And make such a mess of our favourite song.

Well I never went back to that pub in the country,
The pub where the music is precious and rare,
I found me a pub where there's squit on a Thursday,   
Where I can play rubbish, and I just don't care.


(In Suffolk, 'squit' = 'rubbish')

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:17 AM

Great stuff Rusty Dobro. Copywrite it.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:31 AM

Thanks for that thought, Sparticus. As a rule, the talent with which the Lord has seen fit to bless me has had an automatic audience-limiting effect, but perhaps it's time for 'onwards and upwards.' Next stop controversy at the Folk Awards, a long descent into the living hell which is real ale addiction, and an affair with Kate Moss.

I'm off to practise another song.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:33 AM

I thought you were going to say Kate Rusby there....

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:39 AM

Good one, Rusty Dobro :-)

(The song I meant, not the affair - although I wouldn't mind some of that... :-))

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:45 AM

I may have come a little late to this thread, but I utterly disagree with the sentence above -

"If a young person is trying to find their way in to folk and they hear Seth/Kate/Bellowhead/Julie Fowlis then it opens a door which may start them off on a journey; give them a June Tabor album and they'll run away and never listen folk again. There's room for everybody, even on Mudcat!"

Don't patronise young people - a June Tabor album will open far more doors that anything Kate Rusby has recorded. For teenagers, un-easy listening is good and they are far more likely than older types to persevere with the stuff that takes work to appreciate (be it death metal, goth, gangsta rap, modern classical music or folk). Frankly you're doing us a disservice by suggesting that the young can only swallow frothy inconsequential music (i.e. Seth Lakeman, Kate Rusby) or gimmick-laden bilge (Bellowhead) and not the harder stuff.

THAT is what is wrong with folk music right now - not crediting the audience with any intelligence.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:47 AM

Yipee! I'm a real 'catter now! Words of praise from Scrump! Now where's that Martin Gibson?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:47 AM

I've been reading most of this thread with interest.

I came into folk music late - only about seven years ago, when I was in my fifties. The first group that I belonged to tended to be rather insular and the same stuff was played and sung week after week, after week. It was the Mudcat that made me realise that there was a much wider world of folk available.

Since then I have moved to another continent and started learning American songs as well as continuing to find more traditional English and modern folk. I have travelled, on trips to the UK, to quite a number of folk clubs where I have been made very welcome and have sung a mix of the songs I have learned. I quite often get people coming up afterwards, asking about the American stuff, and occasionally wanting words and music.

Nowhere have I, personally, found evidence of the Folk Police. I have been gratified to listen to a number of young (teens and twenties) performers who are carrying on the tradition and supplementing that tradition with their own work, totally different from the angst ridden tomes that I've heard at acoustic sessions.

I've recently managed to get to two sessions at Cecil Sharp House and, again, saw no evidence of any restriction on what was performed. Again, than modern American folk that I sung got favourable comments and I was given the chance to sing two songs in an evening.

I agree that, when we go to a new (for us) venue, we should do a lot more listening than talking and should, out of respect for those who have worked to make a club what it is, not try to impose our own attitudes and behaviours on the regular. All the clubs that I have attended are most welcoming to newcomers but I can see where that welcome would wear thin if they got the impression that they were being seen as dinosaurs by a visitor.

It all seems, IMHO, to come down to a matter of respect for those who have kept the tradition alive through some fairly dry years and to respect those who are coming up with a will and a passion to carry it through to new generations. From my experience Folk tends to attract a more intelligent group than does a lot of other music - it ain't just background to stop the silence. Maybe that is a bit elitist, but it tends to be true, look around at your own group. I've seen in on two continents and in many situations.

It is also a genre that tends to be less faddy that the mainstream popular music. Artistes who were popular in the past still have a following. Whilst there is not a lot of money in folk music good performers will survive for decades, being welcomed into clubs with open arms. I'm thinking right now of two, Harvey Andrews and Allan Taylor, still going strong after many years. Martin Carthy has changed the way that traditional folk music sounds, but it is still folk music and he and Norma are always well received.

We can all learn from each other and new additions can be a breath of fresh air to the scene. However that does not mean that those who do not find them to their taste should be decried anymore than those who find the more established performers a little outdated. Different strokes for different folks.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:54 AM

>>>Admittedly there's no attribution on the Albion Heart page, so I can understand why you might have been under the misapprehension that Sam wrote it. <<<

Ooh..I've come over all dreamy now...all this talk of Sharpe and suddenly I'm away with the Chosen Men and John Tams...

I think Cecil was quite a lad to be honest Joan, in all sorts of ways...

Actually, that page isn't from Albion Heart, that's an entirely separate site for Cecil and Ashley. That's why it's called 'As I Rode Out One Morning'

Unlike you though I know how Sam does the pages. They're merely there for folk to take away things they may want to...filled with thousands of links, on and about folk music, dance, history, films...all sorts.

The great thing is that some of his sites are now being used by folk clubs. The Rainbow Chaseers one in particular.

I know how hard he works making them all, and the dedication he puts into them all too.

Sam's not in 'your club' either though. Thank heavens! ;0)

THIS is Albion Heart Joan...Ruth whoever you are:

Albion Heart

And this is Albion Heart's Myspace page:

Albion Heart Myspace

Glad to be of service... :0)

And now...I'm back to Sharpe and Over The Hills and Far Away....

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:55 AM

Well said, jacqui.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:00 AM

>>>That's why it's called 'As I Rode Out One Morning' <<<


Woops! Nope....It's er actually called....

'As I CYCLED Out On A May Morning'....



Falls over sideways laughing at daft brain....Won't be able to live that one down for a while! Heehee! ;0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:01 AM

I think I was busy riding out one morning with Sharpe..... :0)

Oh...isn't folk music FUN! I LOVE it! :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:03 AM

But lizzie, Sam also cuts and pastes whole swathes of content from other sites. Like the Cecil Sharp stuff, and like all the content on the Thomas Hardy page...and a lot of the information about towns and villages.

Sam may have created them "for folk to take away things they may want to", but that doesn't mean that the people who originally wrote all the content felt the same way...Sam does not credit them for their work, which means he's implicitly taking credit for it. And that's stealing. If you're going to use someone else's work, you MUST credit them, and ask permission, too.

Not sure how plagiarism is 'my club', but I was married to a journalist for 15 years as well as having a fair bit of my own work published, and learned to be a bit touchy about people taking credit for all the time and research you invest in your work just because they know how to use "copy" and "paste".

Cecil was a lad in all sorts of ways? Not sure what you mean, but as I suspect your knowledge of him is based exclusively on those two paragraphs in the link you provided, I don't suppose you do either...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:19 AM

It's spelt Sharp.

Now dear old Cecil got on his bike. Since you and he have so much in common, why don't you copy him?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:27 AM

Ooh...haven't you read about Maud Karpeles, Ruth/Joan...I reckon Cecil had a twinkle in his eye you know!


Read what you want, take away what you want....criticise what you want.

I love Sam's sites. Love them.

BUT I told him that by standing by me, he'd bring down the hatred and the furore of the Folk Police upon his head.....and er...unless I'm very much mistaken, that's exactly what is now happening. "Use him to get at her" sort of thing....

Thankfully, his world is a million miles away from yours. It's a world that is there for no other reason than to support and include....and for folk who want to enjoy it all to enjoy. That's all.

If you don't like his pages, then don't read them. Loads of people do read them though, and enjoy the thousands of paths they get led down, by all the links to other sites he's put in everywhere...I've never seen pages with so many links in....

I get lost in the maze of them all, but I also get lost in a world of beauty and interest and education...A world of so many thoughts and pictures and memories. That's what I love about them, they're magical. You start off on one page and never know where you'll end up, because you find so many different paths...or at least, you do if your mind is open to them all.

Heck, I was off reading about Scott Of The Antarctic last night...and I read his final letter to his wife....So sad! I never would have read that, if I hadn't just 'found' it on Sam's pages...

I Love his sites dearly.

But...each to their own, just as with music. :0)

Folk This is good too.... :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:29 AM

>>>It's spelt Sharp.<<<

No..it isn't.....


SHARP

;0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:31 AM

Quick! Someone send for....

The New Scorpion Band.....FAST! :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:32 AM

I don't know about "the thousands of paths they get led down" but I know one in particular from what I've read.

It's called, "The Garden Path".

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:38 AM

Lizzie, it's not a case of "use him to get at her". Nor is it a case of whether someone likes the sites or not.

The website is full of stolen content. You were the one who posted links to it all over the folk messageboards, so you clearly wanted to draw attention to it. The material on it is there illegally.

You still haven't managed to defend this - it's just people "getting at you". His world may be a million miles away from mine, but I suspect that litigation exists there, too. There's no hatred or malace here, apart from what's in your own head. And I'm telling you this for Sam's own good: get him to at least put in proper attributions, so that the original authors, or at least websites, are credited for their work. Otherwise he might find the whole site closed down one day because one of the people whose work has been stolen complains to his ISP. And what a waste of all his time and effort that would be...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM

>>>It's called, "The Garden Path".

Actually, there are many links to Garden Websites on Sam's pages...and many pages about nature too...You're absolutely right!


Here's one about a very big garden path...

Eden

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:45 AM

The soil was too poor to make that, IMO.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:07 AM

"Ooh...haven't you read about Maud Karpeles, Ruth/Joan...I reckon Cecil had a twinkle in his eye you know!"
Having been in conversation with an academic who HAS done research into Sharp and other collectors the other day, and hearing about reported conversations on the subject the suggestion is that the relationship between the two of them was of the father/daughter type.... I don't pretend to be an expert myself. So what is the cited reference you have that would support your rather flimsy theory, Lizzie?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:08 AM

Did you know that Sean Bean who plays Sharpe was a Sheffield United supporter?

He even has "100 percent Blade" tattooed on his arm. That was very awkward when he was filming Lady Chatterly's lover for the TV series and they had to cover the tattoo up with a plaster and make up when he got naked.

Of course Sheffield United have had a middling sort of season. They have had some good results against teams above them (of which there are a fair number). Looks like they may survive in the Premier League.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:14 AM

Yes, and yes to the first two of those points Dave.... and the relevance to the thread (apart from your obvious love of Sheffield) is??????? But I understood that there was strategic positioning of a leaf in shot in one scene at least to cover up the tattoo.

Oh sorry, I forgot ... that particular thread creep was introduced by bringing Sharpe into it. A great series, but nothing to do with the subject under discussion!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:15 AM

Rule No.1

"If it looks like you might be losing the debate, mainly as a result of not 'putting your brain in gear' before typing, resort to annoying repetition, misdirection and paranoia".

It's a crap strategy, with little chance of success, but if it's all you've got ...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:15 AM

Hey look at that - can I go 100? Or will someone else get there first?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:16 AM

Damn - no - Shimrod got it instead.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:16 AM

Having read all of the above replies & responses, I have to say that I don"t know what all the fuss is about !!
Last year at Sidmouth , the "season ticket " for the childrens' events SOLD OUT very quickly !!There seem to be more & more children going to ,and performing at, Sidmouth, than ever before , which I find very encouraging (as long as they don"t get their hands on a birdie-whistle ! )
Folkie Dave ---Yes, I went to IVDIF at Exeter in 2004--I was in the ceilidh -band that played all Sunday afternoon, and it was GREAT to see so many young people enjoying the music & the dancing, people like Zoe ( Hello Zoe !! ) who was working her socks off at the Ham marquee last August !! My God, I wish I was her age again !!
If anyone likes to look on the Miskin website, and browse through the photos taken in the last 3 or 4 years, they will find much evidence of young people, some VERY young, in fact, taking part in all manner of folk , and folk-related , activities , under the watchful eye of "Jan " ( and her van !), and some very good budding young musical performers, too. In fact, if too many young people got to be interested in Miskin, there wouldn"t be enough room for everyone else !
The Irish musicians that I know, when they are not performing with their various bands, exhibit a markedly un-mercenary love for their music, and will happily play for hours on end on a monday night in Slough, for a pint or two and a bit of chicken. And if Tom King didn"t lay that on, they"d STILL play for the love of it, because that"s what they are like. So there !
Those of us that have been lucky enough, over the last few years, to become acquainted with the traditional music "scene" of Canada & Cape Breton, courtesy of La Bottine Souriante , Slainte M" Hath, Les Chauffeurs a Pieds, et al, are now well aware of how vibrant & "alive & Kicking " that scene is !!
   So on the whole, I don"t think there"s much to complain about, really, do you ?? I"d say the future for folk and folk traditions in this country looks to be in good hands !

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:22 AM

Are they in the Premier League Dave?

I thought the tattoo was on a different part of his anatomy.
Rumour has it that it read "1pntde" until he got naked in Lady Chatterly's Lover.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:27 AM

>>>The soil was too poor to make that, IMO.


Ahhh....So follow me down Cousin Jack....


:0) :0) :0) :0) :0) xx

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:54 AM

Lizzie, I must agree with Ruth that copy-pasting without attribution (or permission) is simply wrong, as well as illegal. If you have never had your work stolen, at least try to imagine how it feels. I am right now attempting to help a young person whose artwork is in danger of being stolen wholesale by well-meaning older folks (some in positions of authority) who don't see anything wrong with that (and should know better). She is distressed and overwhelmed trying to put the rabbit back in the hat and regain control of her personal work.

In the case of promotional materials, it takes no great effort to email the originators, ask permission, promise to include details of attribution and original sources, and usually the response will be positive. Not bothering to do that is either ignorant or uncaring, and still definitely wrong.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Hawker
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:05 AM

Guest, who thinks they should pose as a guest, you say: 'Much as it seems worthy to support tiny festivals like Miskin do you think these events are going to keep folk music thriving? One look at the websites of these smaller festivals and photographs of the audience profile will give you your answer.'
I hope that you were inferring that they would! Miskin is a superb place for kids to immerse themselves in the folk and traditions of great Britiain. If you DID look at the photographs, what you would see, was a very large amount of younger, and according to the photos, VERY happy people, taking an active part in the festival. Morris dancing with Herbaceous Border, Clog dancing, playing music, mumming, pace egging, making corn dollies, making folkie friends with whom they feel comfortable performing - one group of youngsters kept me awake half of the night playing, but it was so good I actually enjoyed being kept awake. There are many younger acts also at Miskin - Mash, a group of young Musicians won the Harry Prigg trophy there a couple of years ago, and they were stunning. Then there is the story telling round the fire, too, all these things are what makes this the ONE festival in the year that my kids WILL NOT miss.
What, I think, more makes for a lack of younger folkies at Larger festivals, is probably the higher cost of buying a ticket, granted you may be paying for 'more famous acts' but, may I say, not necessarily 'better acts' Cost wise, for our family of 2 adults and 2 kids - one 16 and one 12, to go to Miskin, will cost for camping & tickets £109.50 and to go to Sidmouth the cost is £572. Granted it is for a longer period, but even so it is beyond our price bracket, the smaller festivals also are more family friendly, The amount of times I have been frowned at 'cos my kids are making a noise, but I have seen more noisy and rude adults talk through singers performances and strangely they dont seem to get the same treatment that parents of kids get!
Im not knocking bigger festivals, I am sure that there are those who do enjoy them, but dont demean the smaller ones, which in my opinion have so much more to offer. I cannot abide all this mud slinging, this is, after all the Mudcat cafe not the Mudslinging Cafe! The idea I think, unless I am mistaken, is that we are a group of people with a common interest, In order to ensure that folk music survives, which it will anyway!, it should be a sharing thing, FOLK of the people, for the people, by the people, It saddens me that it needs to be so commercialised, and that with commercialisation comes a sort of class divison. I for one will not be told what I should and should not like, and love the folk process of passing on. With that passing on, there will be changes, it is inevitable and nothing is set in stone. Before the likes of Cecil Sharp and Baring Gould there was no standardisation of tunes, so a person would sing it as they heard it from uncle bill or whoever, now if you stand up and sing a song, somebody will often tell you that you have got the tune wrong - things have lost their old magic, but then that is part of the changing face of traditional music. There, I shall stand down from my soap box.

As for you Mr Observer, you are most observant! LOL
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

No that was not Sean Bean. There was the Canadian who had his name/place of birth tattooed in his anatomy. one person thought his name was Stan, one thought it he came from Saskatchewan....or was it Sam?

Sheffield United were one of the earliest football league clubs founded in 1889. And Bramall Lane was the first ground in the country to have floodlights.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM

Hawker makes a couple of good points: cost for families, and the intolerance some adults have for the young. When I have sold expensive and breakable work at fairs, I've often had parents tell their children not to touch. It's been my experience that most children are more sure handed then adults, and normally aren't planning to break a stranger's posessions. I usually tell the parents touching is fine, and truthfully, the two incidents of damage I've had were both a result of rough handling by adults. Children and young people do deserve more respect than they are sometimes offered.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:20 AM

I sell books on folk music at festivals.

I have a special table for adults carrying beer. It is clearly marked. They still put their beer on the table full of books. Then I mention how much some of the books cost.

They move the beer at that point.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Barden of England
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:20 AM

I didn't get into Folk until the age of 49. That was back in 1993, nor had I picked up a guitar until then either, but I didn't let that stop me. Why does it seem to matter what age you are for goodness sake. This ageism thing really gets my 'dander' up. I'm a teenager that's just happened to have got to the age I am.
John Barden

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:27 AM

I'm only 9!
Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:36 AM

From Bee:

>>Lizzie, I must agree with Ruth..

Bee, with all due respect, what is happening here has very little to do with what you think it may, and a great deal to do with one person's vitriolic campaign to stop me from posting both here and on the BBC. Ruth's now seemingly 'tender' concern for Sam or his sites is very sickening to me, because for weeks now, months actually, she's been saying the most personal things about Sam on this board and the BBC, where her posts were finally removed, after I told the BBC I would sue them if they were not.

She is one of a strong, small group who follow me round. I see that sadly, FolkieDave has also joined the ranks now too. Your choice Dave.

However, if you look on The Albion Chronicles thread from about 3 days ago now, you'll see what happened a while back. That thread, which I started a very long time ago, when I first discovered Sam's sites, was recently revived, for no reason other than to have a go at me...and to try and get to me through Sam, following the most appalling behaviour on the BBC. I did not respond. And so...it was revived again just the other day, for exactly the same reason. That reason being 'keeping the pressure up'

I'm sorry that she's doing it yet again in here, but it won't stop I'm afraid, not until she and her friends have tried their damndest to drive me away.

Sam's sites are memories, interests and inspiration. They are a gathering together, in one place, of many items on the same subjects. Sam writes a great deal in there himself. He has poured a great deal of himself into those pages as well, because he has a true love of the music and of his country. Nothing is done for commercial gain, there is not one word in there of malice, or spite or unpleasantness...purely pages and pages of supportive and interesting information, gathered into one place for those who wish to read it.

However, this will now be blown out of proportion and used over and over again to try and put him into disrepute and his pages also. It's the way 'they' work I'm afraid.

Ruth has dragged my personal life across this board and across the BBC board. I'm stunned to hear her mention that she's divorced actually, as she did above, because I'd have thought if that were truly the case, then she'd know about the pain involved in that part of life. Obviously, she couldn't give a hoot, as she has dragged my family through deep er...'muck' (for want of a better word) on other threads in here and on the BBC also...whilst also revealing my real name, without my permission.

If her concern for Sam is real, then her 'using' of his sites and my personal life, will, I'm sure, stop. However, I'd not hold out too much hope if I were you.

It's one of those cases of having to have walked a mile in someone's moccasins to understand the full picture here...

Hope this helps a little anyway..

Lizzie

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Hawker
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:38 AM

Skipy! I thought you were younger than that!
LOL

Barden, I got into folk at about 16, 'cos the folk club served me when I was under age! and I got to dance with all the eligible blokes in the room too - nothing to do with the music! Then I got into 'pop' music and did the teenage nightclub thing for a while and came back to folk at 28, I like all kinds of music, and I agree it doesn't matter what your age, as long as you enjoy it. I was just taking issue with earlier comments about there not being any young folkies - there certainly are - and some of them are bloody good too!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:40 AM

From John: >>>I didn't get into Folk until the age of 49. That was back in 1993, nor had I picked up a guitar until then either, but I didn't let that stop me. Why does it seem to matter what age you are for goodness sake. This ageism thing really gets my 'dander' up. I'm a teenager that's just happened to have got to the age I am.
John Barden <<<

Gosh John...you look like you've been a real folkie all your life.

You have a lovely 'look' by the way! ;0) I think it's because you're a teenager!! Oh...something on this thread that's finally brought a smile and put it back into perspective.

A REAL, Genuine, Lovely FOLKIE!

Someone send for George...He doesn't have 'clubs'...well...apart from Herga of course...but otherwise..he doesn't..

AND...George has a great sense of humour too! And he makes your feet dance with those Greek Rhythms...

Yes yes...Send For George! Immediately! Get him out of his suit and back into his Folkie Clothes...

:0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:18 AM

I happen to like rock and roll. I just thought I'd mention that. Oh, and folk's OK too.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:28 AM

Here you go Peace :0)

Rock 'n' Roll Jam Sandwiches :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:39 AM

At this point I feel quite victimised, actually.

I don't think i've said anything here that could be interpreted as an attack. Lizzie posted a link about Cecil Sharp, and I recognised that the page was plagiarised - I actually remember the event that it was written to promote. As I explained, the wholesale copying of content is something to which I am particularly sensitive. My subsequent comments were simply well-meaning advice - but if you are going to post a link to a page of stolen content, are people meant to simply turn a blind eye because to do otherwise might hurt your feelings? All I have said is that Sam ought to name his sources, because if he doesn't, he might find himself in a position where his site is under threat. Not by me, but by the people who legally own the content he has copied.

I have tried to remain reasoned and sensible throughout this quite interesting thread, but yet again it's turned into one of Lizzie's diatribes.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:44 AM

Lizzie: I have no quarrel with you or Ruth: you're both posters on a board I enjoy. Whatever is between you and other posters is no concern of mine, except when it interferes with my enjoyment of an interesting discussion.

Ruth stated, and I have no reason to disbelieve her, that the site in question uses unattributed copy-pasted materials. You have not said that it does not. Perhaps you could clarify this.

Everything I have said, nonetheless, regarding using other people's material (including music), is true. It is illegal, harmful, and extremely frustrating when it happens to you. It is a particular concern of mine, and I always address it when it is brought up.

The site in question, by the way, is another impossible-to-use-on-dialup creation. It makes multiple copies of itself and presents under-screen adverts, plus loads with multiple errors. I have no technical problems with the vast majority of websites.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM

Peace, I'm partial to blues, bluegrass, Cape Breton fiddling, and a long list of old rock and a lot of unclassifiables. I'll give any music a listen, I ain't proud.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:49 AM

Sorry you can't get on to it Bee...never mind then. Shame, I think you may have enjoyed them....

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM

So, we ARE all agreed then?
I'll just hang around and listen for a while.

Good Morning All.
Jim

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 12:59 PM

That law was actually a facsimile of a previous law which is awaiting a Civil Court ruling which in itself, closely resembles the Court of Law. (Or did someone already say that?)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:00 PM

Cheer up guys! I think we're all on the same side here.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:27 PM

So, uh, "We have met the enemy and he is us." ?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:59 PM

The site is full of plagiarised material. Which bit of that can you and Sam not understand?

I have told you a number of times I do not dislike you personally, I cannot do so for I have never met you.

I have told you a number of times like most people who have been into folk music for a number of years that what annoys me is your constant gushing and fawning over particular artists you feel you have discovered. Time and time again.

So yes people do feel it necessary to correct you. Which then sets you off on another diatribe. Cecil Sharp whom you gushingly admired earlier today was "folk police" par excellence. Did you take any notice of what people who know what they are talking about corrected you?

Of course not. You annoy people - you may not mean to (though I doubt that) and you may not realise when you are doing it, (and I doubt that too) but you do, These are people who have spent twenty and thirty and forty years heavily involved in the music you claim to love. They do not appreciate being told they don't know what they are talking about because first of all they generally do and secondly you often give the impression that you don't. And on occasions you clearly don't. Not only that but you twist their words and ignore what they say.

You feel there is a gang of people who are in some way out to get you and you have imagined somehow I have joined them. Pure nonsense.

A whole range of people keep asking you to desist and you have ignored them - so what they do is go away and ignore you. And leave this board. Well done, another one lost.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:00 PM

Oh do calm down Dave..there's a dear....and try not to be so rude to me all the time....there's a poppet. Rant if you must, but do watch your blood pressure, that's all.

And if you want to go away, why not go to the BBC board? They need some more Moaning Minnies over there.. ;0) Strangely they told me I drove them all away from the BBC, but they never left...Not until I was banned...then..they er...left! ?????????

I do hope you check every single site on the internet in the same way you check Sam's site...and pull those sites apart too, in public..and then go round biffing and baffing all those people as well. Otherwise, I may start to think that you're 'just havin' a go' at me, through him Dave..... ;0)

Sorry if I annoy you...but it's SO not compulsory to read my posts...and heck..I'm mainly only in two threads at present...so do keep your hair on...

And hey...you can gush and fawn and fawn and gush over whomesoever you choose Dave...I'll not tell you to stop or go away or say that YOU have driven me away...Nope..I'll either read your post and think.."Hmmm..I rather like that"...or else..I'll ignore it and read something else... :0)

I don't give in to being bullied, insulted or verbally abused though Dave m'dear...

Sorry......

And now...back to this thread's first post:

From 'An Observer'

>>>IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB

Don't they understand, we don't want folk to be popular? We don't want the general public (halfwits) to be interested in OUR music. We hate anyone from the folk world who becomes popular enough to earn a living from OUR music. And we hate any music which isn't folk (and we will decide what IS folk). And we hate festival organisers, (robbing b*st*rds), we hate their concerts, don't want to buy their tickets, but we do want to camp on their festival site (for free). Then we can sit in a nice little pub listening to a lovely person about the size of a jumbo jet, singing, only slightly out of tune. A place where we can drink good ale and complain about how down trodden we are, how unfair the world is, and how THEY are trying to stop us singing in the bar. A place where we can be rustic, people of the earth, before going back to our well paid jobs in IT or HR.<<<

>>>We don't want the general public (halfwits) to be interested in OUR music.<<<


Lizzie :0) A half-witted member of the general public.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:22 PM

Oh Lizzie - the problem is that, when it comes to breach of copyright, Dave's correct - and the thing is, it isn't up to him to go round 'scouring the net' for other breaches of copyright - this site (Sam's site?? and I've no idea who Sam is) has been brought to the world's attention - partly by you. If it is full of plaguarised material - then that material should, at least, be correctly attributed. It's like the recording of gigs thing - artists, whether they be singers, writers whatever - have rights - you can't just bung their work up anywhere and give the impression (by not dsaying whose work it is) that it is your own.

As generous as you think performers are, they should not be deprived of their rights. In the same way as many songs are about workers rights - fought for and won - you should not expect artists to give up their rights to their work - or open acknowledgment of it. Or call people Moaning Minnies for pointing this out.

I'm sorry Lizzie - but this is much more of a business than you realise. There are rules - and it is the performers who get stuffed every time if those rules aren't followed.

So ... if you really do want to support musicians - don't support websites which contain plaguarised or non attributed material. Cos it is the thin end of the wedge - believe me.

I do wish you well - but this is a lot more complicated than you think.
(and there are professional browsers out there, looking for sites to pick up on and create case history)

Blowz

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:23 PM

And, Dave, don't start a sentence with "And".
Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:26 PM

I do hope you check every single site on the internet in the same way you check Sam's site...and pull those sites apart too, in public..and then go round biffing and baffing all those people as well. Otherwise, I may start to think that you're 'just havin' a go' at me, through him Dave..... ;0)

Well my attention was drawn to Sam's site by you Lizzie, and I went to look at it and there it is plagiarism from top to bottom. I am not having a go at Sam for any reason - I am having a go at the site. It is plagiarised. Why do you support such blatant plagiarism?

you can gush and fawn and fawn and gush over whomesoever you choose Dave

I know I can but thanks for reminding me. I needed that. What I can't do is go on and on and on and on about whomsoever I gush over ad nauseam without annoying people. As you have found out.

The other thing I would be embarrassed about - though clearly you aren't is that to say one day you are leaving a message board and come back within hours. Your privilege but it does make you look an idiot.

So nothing new there then.

However in that last post you did write something accurate.

Lizzie :0) A half-witted member of the general public.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:22 PM

O/K, O/k.I don't have time to read War & Peace to get the answer to this question, What is Sam's site, so that I can take a look?
Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:31 PM

Thanks Dave....I think that says it all about 'your' world.

And you tell me to leave Sam's world and bow to the people in yours?

No way.

I would rather support Sam in everything he's doing Dave, and that is....supporting musicians left, right and centre...laying thousands of paths for people to travel down...than spend one more single moment in here with people like yourself.

You're right..I AM an idiot

I was an idiot to ever think that this world wanted to be opened up. It doesn't.

But 'this' is not my world, neither was the BBC board.

Sam's world is my world.

Blowz...you have no idea what's been going on here for so very long. If you back 'these people' over Sam, then I am so disappointed in you Blowz...I really am. They have poured vitriol down on me for so very long, you know that. I have tried and tried to fight them...but what am I fighting for here? Can you tell me Blowz?   Because sadly I no longer know.

It wasn't me who started this thread, but perhaps some think I did. I didn't.

I merely brought Sam's site to your attention, that is the folk world's attention, because I stupidly thought that as there are hundreds of pages about folk musicians in there, with masses of information, that some might find it interesting, that's not even touching upon all the information that is about England and it's history etc....

But no...none of you are interested. The Albion Chronicles and the rest of Sam's sites are not for you....You do not see the magic, or the sunshine or the sparkle in them....because you only ever look for the darkness in all things.

He has brought together an enormous amount of information, into some truly magical pages, about song, dance, traditions, history, nature, films, writers...on and on it goes.

Yet all of you see ONLY the mistakes. That is ALL that has been mentioned here. NOTHING else.

Blowz, for many of the people who've been hounding me on here and on the BBC, and Dave you are one of them I'm afraid...this is nothing to do with Sam....It is purely to do with me.

Strange Dave, that when you PM'd me recently, you were kindness itself....flattering me left right and centre about the fact that in your eyes, I had worn well for my age...and I thanked you for those kind words. You then asked me 'Who's Sam' and I told you he was the man who created The Albion Chronicles. When you knew you'd get no more information out of me...you went away..and all this bizarre and unpleasant behaviour started.

Well I'll tell you now who Sam is.

Sam is the man that I love.

He is the man who has taught and is teaching me more about folk music than any of you could ever dream of even touching upon. Sam teaches with love you see. No negativity, no humiliation or disparaging remarks, he does not use his knowledge as a weapon, as so many of you do...He gives nothing but support and love.

He, unlike most of you, is one of the most interesting, kind and fascinating people I have ever come across and I will do all I can to support him and his many sites too. He also has a myriad of Myspace pages about folk musicians as well. All supportive, all helping to spread the word...and all unofficial sites...all well marked. He works harder than most of you will ever know....for the music.

His pages were born from a deep grief, but they have brought him a deep and lasting love that many of you could not even begin to touch upon.

That love comes from me.

Yes. I fell in love, not only with Sam's sites....but with Sam himself. That love has been rock solid from the moment he came into my life and it will be for the rest of my life too.

I told him, over and over, that standing beside me would bring him nothing but unpleasantness in the folk world, and do you know what his answer was? He made the Sam & Lizzie site for me. Not only that, but he linked every single page of his huge web of pages up to that site.

My God! You know....I'm finding this so easy to write! I thought I'd be upset...but I'm not.

I actually, for the first time EVER, now want to leave this world....It is a bad place to be. It's been a bad place for me for so very, very long.

It was The Albion Chronicles that began to open my eyes to what this world could and should be. It was Sam's sites that laid it all before me....and it was Sam's sites whose paths I went down. And I am SO pleased and grateful that I did. I could of stayed with all of you for so much longer...fighting, yelling, but there's no need anymore.

My path is with Sam from now on.

Our journey is just beginning.

For many of you, your journey, it seems to me, has stopped. It stopped when you let the coldness of hatred, anger and bitterness come into your hearts, it stopped when you sought to destroy rather than to encourage...it stopped...inside so many of you.

I hope you find your way out of it all....to a very different world.

So yes Dave...this time I WILL go. I have no wish to be amongst people such as yourself, Joan Crump, Diane Easby or Ralph Jordan on this site, or any other 'folk' site anymore.   

I very much hope that you enjoy YOUR music, that you enjoy YOUR club and that you enjoy YOUR world.

And Dave, for your information...THIS is the thread that I was SUPPOSED to 'go out' on...

....because in this thread is YOUR story...The story of the those English Traditionalists whose souls seem so filled with obsessiveness, with negativity, with darkness, with maliciousness...Souls that cannot and do not want ever to share or tolerate....Souls that cannot laugh or smile or welcome or be kind or uplifting...but just seem to want to abuse those who are not part of their 'little' club.

Sam is worth a million of you...and he is the man that I choose, over and above anyone else in this world.   

I'm off to pastures filled with love, with a man who knows more about the folk world than the rest of you put together, but who would never humiliate anyone, or deride them or belittle them, but only ever open his arms wide and welcome them, support them and put them at their ease.

That is one of the many reasons why I love him.

It truly is back to being YOUR world now......



Sam's Lizzie

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:31 PM

There are lots, all credited to 'Sam-and-Lizzie'. Try this one for starters:

http://thealbionchronicles.tripod.com/

I'm not very good at the blue clicky things. It would be easier to bump another thread...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:41 PM

Lizzie - I bear you no ill will and I'm not backing anybody over anybody - just trying to point out some areas where care needs to be taken.

Take care
Blowz

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM

http://thealbionchronicles.tripod.com/id12.html

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM

Well I for one am confused by this matter, 'Sam' appears to understand the concept of 'copyright' as he has clearly labelled his site copyright to Sam and Lizzie, before you go Lizzie could you explain to Sam that copyrighting material stolen (and thats the right term) from other people is a somewhat dubious practice.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 05:50 PM

Lizzie, I don't know you, well at least I don't think that I do, but I really do believe that you may need some help, your stress level to me appears to be through the roof, step back for a while, regroup, calm down, please.
Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:35 PM

has she gone ?
is it safe to come out again?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:06 PM

has she gone ?
is it safe to come out again?

I doubt it.

The pills will kick in and she'll be back again.

It is not the first time she has declared undying love for someone she has never met. I think her husband is a really badly-treated bloke,

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Whooaa Liz!!!!

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

when you get tired of him...give me a call...you must light a furnice in the hay.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:21 PM

Thank F**k for that! Can we let this thread die now? Please.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:42 PM

"Sam's sites are ... Nothing is done for commercial gain"

The only thing worse than some selfish git stealing someone elses's work so that he can profit from selling it, is some ignorant selfish fool stealing it so he can give it away for free and thereby STILL rip off the original creator!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:12 PM

Hi Liz.
Hope it works out for you in Canada.
Thanks for your support for my various projects over the years.
Stay safe.
Kind Regards Ralphie xx

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:18 PM

Pedant note:

http://sam-and-lizzie.tripod.com/where_we_begin.html

link in list on right side

As I Cycled Out on a May Morning
Cecil Sharp, Ashley Hutchings, and
all the usual suspects


:-)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:37 AM

I've only just returned to this thread.

Has Lizzie gone? I'll certainly miss her.

I wish you good fortune Lizzie, wherever you are.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:56 AM

At some point it becomes lèse–majesté to slag a person who's left the party. Are we near that point yet?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:10 AM

wait for it.........................................NOW!
Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM

Way past time, IMO. It's teasing, is not nice, and only invites retaliation/return.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:30 AM

"At some point it becomes lèse–majesté to slag a person who's left the party."

What - you're supposed to wait till they leave?

Maybe that explains the interesting atmosphere at most of the parties I attend...

:D

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,devil's advocate
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:04 PM

Now, that was messy.

Those of you openly celebrating and gloating at Lizzie's demise really should be feeling sheepish; the behavior of many on this thread (and a couple of others) is shocking. You have singled out Lizzie and have treated her badly; bullying at it's worst.

The irony of the initial post "It's Our Little Club" has rung true across many of the 150 or so posts - you didn't want Lizzie and have hounded her out.

Take a look at yourselves, it's pretty disgraceful.

Guest; a long term signed up member who wishes to remain anonymous

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:13 PM

"When the oak tree has fallen, everyone claims some wood" (Greek proverb).
Agree GUEST,devil's advocate, not much to be proud of in the whole thread. For anyone.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:21 PM

You'll find the recipe for hypocrite pie on the other thread.

If Mrs Route has really pissed off to Canada (or anywhere), I won't be gloating or celebrating.
She's left behind far too much harm and damage to people and to music.
But I'll be extremely relieved if it's actually true.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:22 PM

I agree with George and GUEST.

Remember all your comments are preserved here - I wonder when you look back at them if you will still be as proud of them as you were when you posted them.

You can certainly see a very different side to some people in threads like this, and not a very pleasant one at that.

And I don't mind saying that under my usual Mudcat name; I feel no need to sign out as GUEST has done.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:47 PM

You know, George, Scrump, and Guest, I don't entirely agree: I've looked back over this discussion, and there are very few posts directly attacking the poster you are apparently defending now she's gone. Disagreeing, yes, but there was a lot to disagree with. The reponses to simple disagreemnet, were somewhat over the top and melodramatic, for sure. I see no point in discussing the departed, but also no point in castigating the rest of us. YMMV.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:55 PM

The above guest was me! Pressed the wrong button. The trouble with Lizzie was that she got people's backs up. I tried very hard to reason with her but got a load of very personal abuse which I didn't feel I deserved. The main issue she has with me is that I'm a teacher and, therefore, I represent everything that Lizzie thinks is wrong with the education system. It's that sort of thing that makes people turn on her.

I actually think that she was enjoying the arguments at first but then suddenly became upset and left the board.

She has left the board before and returned so I hope she will this time.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:55 PM

Lizzie has hounded people on this board.

She has hounded people off this board.

She has interfered with people's professional and personal lives.

She needed professional help and a number of people including me have suggested that to her.

She takes not notice of decent people's advice. And she hasn't.

She said she would desist and she hasn't. Some people have been extremely patient with Lizzie and some have been even more patient and some have been less patient.

I have reread every single post I have made to this thread. I withdraw nothing.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 01:18 PM

The withdrawal method leads to nervous disorders anyway.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 02:18 PM

I'll bow to your greater experience in that Richard :-)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Devil's Advocate
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 02:26 PM

Could I just point out that the previous posting of Guest:devil's advocate was not related in any way shape or form to previous postings that I have made on this or other threads under this name (please note use of Upper case letters) . I have _not_ made an incredible 180 degree turn about, and heartily agree with the points made by Bee and Chris Murray.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:30 PM

Bee, I make no exception for Lizzie or anyone else, so don't think that I am taking sides in all this - I honestly am not. Indeed, many of those involved are people I like, and face-to-face they are great to be with. But somehow when we get behind a screen and a keyboard different personas emerge, a little like the mild-mannered person becoming a road-rage-freak behind the wheel of a car.

Like any newcomer would, I judged this thread on its own merits, and out of any other context. It matters not what private conversations have been held in the past through PMs or emails, or on other threads or other boards. Any Aussie or American 'catter simply reading this thread can only come away with a dire view of our folk community, and as many of those involved are friends (or I would like them to be), this simply makes me sad.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:36 PM

George, you are always the voice of reason. I've never known you be nasty about anyone.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:39 PM

Life's too short, Chris.
And getting shorter.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: growler
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:44 PM

Like Barden, I started playing folk late, at 50 actualy, since then my wife has left me, Ive lost my house,Ive had a mental breakdown, and worst of all, my son supports Gillingham

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:46 PM

Are you sure you shouldn't be a blues singer?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:49 PM

Gillingham? He has to ASK for help. It's completely out of your hands until he admits he has a problem. Try "Villans Anonymous".
Cheers
Jim

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:58 PM

"Sam's world is my world."

I prefer "Wayn's World"

AS for Lizzie's parting shots, I've never read such a load of old tosh. Melodramatic or what? Sam is probably flitting at this moment in time, in a vain attempt to escape the fate that has befallen him. Oh, and another fine example she is setting in her role as home educator. Agh! enough.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:01 PM

Let it go!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:23 PM

I have made only one previous post in this thread and that was to the effect that if Mrs Route has really gone (and preferably into therapy) I'd be immensely relieved.

I only looked at the thread after someone drew my attention to the breathtakingly cretinous piece of bilge signed 'Sam's Lizzie' and decided to ignore it, assuming that it would be universally regarded with mass shaking of heads.

George remarks that he knows and likes various people on this thread and I believe that includes me. He is aware that the two things I am most likely to kick off about are musical ignorance and threats to artists' intellectual property.

I have now read the whole thread which unfolds as the most appalling display yet of Mrs Route's failure to grasp, as a result of complete self-absorption and lack of self-awareness, any notion whatsover of musical history, sources or attribution, nor indeed, of how to behave as a human being or act ethically.

She makes wholly ridiculous and wildly erroneous assumptions about Celtic music, the early English collectors and everyone around who knows just a bit more than she does (not hard).

With immense patience, several people have attempted to explain simply, without a trace of ridicule, how her massively offbeam assertions are just plain wrong, as in another thread the same was attempted to counter her wildly dangerous educational theories. Of course Dave reiterates that he won't withdraw a word; he knows what he's talking about and he's right.

I despair of unbalanced postings from those such as the imposter Devil's Advocate, and indeed, of George, who I can only assume has failed to read the thread or else has taken way too much ouzo. Nobody's been 'nasty' to Mrs Route but have instead deconstructed her deranged ramblings and tried to point her towards some semblance of sanity. No use. While she's out there searching in paranoid fashion for the non-existent 'folk police' she's likely to be nabbed by the 'web police'. Now, they do exist . . .

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: growler
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:53 PM

Here here

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,imposter devil's advocate
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 05:35 PM

"..the two things I am most likely to kick off about are musical ignorance..", Countess Richard 04:23PM.

It's our little club. QED

How does anyone join the club, and what does one have to do to become 'valid' in your eyes?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:01 PM

See posts two & three, then it got closed, then I sent a "well done" to Joe for closing it, then it got combined & opened again, I respect Joe & all the so called clones, whoever they / you are, BUT this was going to end in tears, enshrined in our living rooms, offices, we can be a bunch of bitches, sad really when in theory we all have the same purpose, that of the love of the music. We all come in from a slightly differant angles, collectively we are strong and determined, when one of "OURS" is in pain we are there thick & fast and yet we still find time to fight, if we could harness the energy that we often waste we could increase the profile of the music or are we to insular to do that?
Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:14 PM

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,imposter devil's advocate - PM
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 05:35 PM

"..the two things I am most likely to kick off about are musical ignorance..", Countess Richard 04:23PM.

It's our little club. QED

How does anyone join the club, and what does one have to do to become 'valid' in your eyes?

Lizzie, when you post on here you make yourself obvious. The reason is that you are not perfect in your grammar and punctuation. So it is obvious that it is you.

And you still haven't explained why the Albion Chronicles has copyrighted material that is plagiarised.

NOTE TO READERS.

This is not a personal attack on Lizzie nor is it bullying. It is not about her, it is about her writing and her plagiarism.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:08 PM

I've just read through my contributions to this thread, and feel okay about them. I attacked no one, but I certainly
had a few nasty personal remarks chucked my way. I tried to stick to the discussion and to be engaged and polite, even when contributing criticism (that's still allowed, isn't it?) but I still incurred Lizzie's wrath, personal attacks and vitriol.

But apparently that's okay, because Lizzie is the victim in all this.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:44 PM

Growler, first I don't think it's true (apart from the gravest sin of supporting Gillingham) but in any case it's not folk, that's country.

Second, if you can't even spell "Wayne's World" or "Spartacus" you have a problem. Get an education. Some of the best educated people I ever knew went into libraries to keep warm in the Great Slump, started on Rabelais for the smut, and were still skilled debaters in the 70s. Anyone can learn. Of course, Growler, their politics differed from yours.

Generally ignorance is not a virtue. When you know and understand, you may discard or condemn. Until then you merely display your ignorance. I don't theorise about hairdressing, or assert that a mophead is as "good" as skilled coiffure. If I led the great revolution, and overthrew the government, would I appoint as my chancellor someone with no knowledge of economics? Would I let someone with no maths design a box-girder bridge?

This isn't clubbism or social exclusion. Slumcult does society no favours.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:49 PM

like the FRINGE thread , this one is full of mis readings of posts , Misinterpreting of posts and total CRAP ! It gives a very bad (And totally false) impression of what the UK folk scene is all about !

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:54 PM

"This isn't clubbism or social exclusion. Slumcult does society no favours."


I have to agree. I think that the folk scene is welcoming - I've never found it otherwise - but what's wrong with hoping that people are going to want to acquire a little knowledge along the way? Since when did learning become about snobbery?

I hate that whole prolier-than-thou ethos which suggests that accessibility is the be-all and end-all. Well, some things are meant to be a bit harder, and will take time and effort to understand.

Usally, they're the things most worth having.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:03 AM

God Save the Queen.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 02:55 AM

And why not, Peace?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:06 AM

You know, George, Scrump, and Guest, I don't entirely agree: I've looked back over this discussion, and there are very few posts directly attacking the poster you are apparently defending now she's gone.

Bee - just to set the record straight: I was not defending Lizzie, or anyone else for that matter. What I said was:

Remember all your comments are preserved here - I wonder when you look back at them if you will still be as proud of them as you were when you posted them.

You can certainly see a very different side to some people in threads like this, and not a very pleasant one at that.

I was merely pointing out, as I think George was, that some posters have not left behind a very favourable impression of themselves, and perhaps as George says, of the British folk community, by their postings in this thread.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:12 AM

Second, if you can't even spell "Wayne's World" or "Spartacus" you have a problem. Get an education

In view of discussions about this earlier this week on Mudcat you will forgive me if I do not let this pass Richard.

Some people do have specific learning difficulties and spelling can be one of them.

It is very dangerous to suggest to someone that because they manifest a difficulty spelling or reading they need education. Dangerous because they may then stay clear of all education when with some remedial help they could be great achievers. Often the amount of help needed can be tiny and simply changing the colour of the paper they use or of the computer screen they watch sometimes makes a huge difference. It really is that simple. (For those who have never heard of this before, various shades of green or salmon pink are usually the ones that work best).

Secondly it is also dangerous because the local authority can be sued for not providing for this and as council-tax payers we could ultimately pay for their neglect. I have acted in a witness in such a case and the authority did not test it in court.

Many of the mature students I dealt with in an FE college had exactly this problem and were having a second go at education. Many went on to higher education including doctorates.

Telling them at interview to "get educated" would not have been a good idea.

There are many people with this problem who have a record of high achievement in a whole variety of areas and who have become famous in their field. I shan't bother you with a list, if you are that interested there are plenty on the web.

NOTE TO READERS

I have not attacked Richard personally as I am sure he would agree. I have not misquoted him or twisted his words. They have been taken directly from his post without alteration. I have simply disagreed with him. It is allowed.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 06:38 AM

Lizzie displays great enthusiasm - perhaps even to excess - this can definitely get up some people's noses. From the little observation I have had of her on this place, she also does not accept 'correction' lightly - she see it as 'attacking criticism' - and then pushes harder to 'justify her ignorance' of things others know from experience.

I knew one other such female person who presented herself like Lizzie - she was not as clever as she thought she was - she tried to pretend 'I was her boyfriend' - and spread that story all around - which took me great effort and much pain, because people also believed 'that I was being nasty to her - as I said she wasn't as clever as she thought, cause I guessed that she wanted to move in my house with me, and was able to drive in a different direction when she persuaded me 'to pick her up' - seven suitcases was a bit of a give away.... :-)
anyway she jumped out of the car, and the last I saw her, she was being picked up for her own safety by a police car....

If 'Sam' wants to associate himself with Lizzie, that's HIS business.

I have developed over the years an increasing spelling hassle while typing - without ieSPell, I can't even SEE the typos at the time - it is a physical disorder - and I can't use other browsers, cause they don't allow similar useful plugins I need....

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,The Observer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:36 AM

This must surely bring this thread to an end. Any sensible discussion on the possibilities for a new folk evangelism, bringing our wonderful music to greater numbers seems to have been fully explored. I guess folk will remain our little club. I did want to provoke more than internecine warfare between Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM

Sorry Observer, but as long as you are not logging in under your handle, this is the only way to contact you, and I still have questionmarks:

You say you wanted to provoke more than internecine warfare; but I am still not sure of your initial objective. Was it to explore the possibilities of a new folk evangelism? Has your question been answered, or was there more? I, for one, am always in favour of folk evangelism, even if some of its aspects might be as foreign to me as the religious sort.

Why not start a new thread clarifying the question better, perhaps even under your proper handle - have courage, man (or lady)!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:49 AM

"This must surely bring this thread to an end"
Please... that would be good!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:51 AM

No shit!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 02:17 PM

Richard Bridge

"started on Rabelais for smut and, were still skilled debaters in the 70s"

I suppose that, collectively, the well educated people that you referred to could be termed mass - debaters.

During your perfect education were you never told not to use an apostrophe before "and" ??????

Try harder Richard, "Anyone can learn."

Yours, tongue in cheek, Wayn

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:22 PM

Now that Mrs Route is out of sight it might be as well to examine the precise premise of the opening post.

It surprises me that so many assumed that she was the author because her oft-expressed assumption is that anyone who goes out gigging makes loads of money for a couple of hours work a night and thus (for some unexplained reason) ought to be on continuous rotation on prime-time radio and thus become megastars,

She also, bizarrely, amasses her spam behind those very people who throw their arms up in horror whenever a festival management pulls the plug because of unsupportable financial risk and declare that it must continue, even when the limit of their contribution is to lurk in pubs the whole time and never buy a ticket.

So it was with Beverley and then, in 2005, with Sidmouth, the year when she discovered (or rather invented) her vocation. The ever-so-loosely associated co-ordinating committee formed after Steve Heap's departure in 2004, to carry Sidmouth forward decided to plan for a 2006 revival, this being the timescale considered necessary. Others thought otherwise and pressed on to cobble together a disparate collection of unco-ordinated events lacking an overall season ticket or any international acts. Somewhere along the way, the original committee did a volte-face shrouded in mystery (though I'm sure Ruth will be along to explain it) and joined in the organisation (or lack thereof). Wholly miraculously, this 'folk week' did not go tits up but actually finished with a small profit.

It is my criticism of the potential horrendous folly of pressing ahead in 2005 that Mrs Route lambasts me for. And for repeating that the result, though not an unmitigated disaster, was merely a run-of-the-mill, town-based festival like any other and NOT Sidmouth.

Because to me, Sidmouth is spectacular international dance, bands from all over the world and Shooting Roots workshops. It's a week without sleep and feet rarely touching the ground because there's so much to do and see. And it's where English music is showcased on a par with the rest. Thankfully, it is showing signs of regaining some of that status which is just as well as WOMAD is about to be sidelined to a remote field.

What I'm talking about is the kind of festival Sidmouth was, outward-looking and the complete antithesis of that typified in the initial post. I know nothing of Miskin but, having looked at posts on another thread it seems that attendees look forward to a weekend of just them and no 'intruders', thank you. Can't see how that helps to 'get the music out there', though this may well be the way they want it. Why?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:19 PM

"Why?"

"It's Our Little Club" ???!!!! :-)





Don't worry, the door's not locked....

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:37 PM

I haven't come to explain the workings of Sidmouth 2005 - I wasn't there, and I wouldn't presume to speak for the committee. I'm just somebody who wandered in recently, the latest of johnny-come-latelies, who's helping out with a bit of fundraising.
Though I will say the committee has some very lovely, extremely dedicated people on it.

You'll be pleased to hear that Shooting Roots is back this year, Diane.

I agree that what was achieved in 2005 - and indeed in 2006 - was extraordinary. I can't get the same perspective on the situation as someone who's been attending for many years, but anyone who knows the background of what happened - the withdrawal of both Mrs Casey and a very large council grant - will surely marvel that the new committee even had the will to make the festival carry on. To have achieved success on the level they have should inspire the respect and admiration of the folk community as a whole.

Now, I can understand that Sidmouth came to mean something very specific to people - the international dimension, and the arena, setting it apart from other festivals. But if you look at the evolution of Sidmouth from the very beginning, you begin to see it not as a static event, but one that has gone through many incarnations in its long and extraordinary history.

I reckon this is the beginning of its latest incarnation. What it is now is not necessarily what it will remain, and I think it will develop a new identity over the next few years - distinct from the Steve Heap years, perhaps, but hopefully still unique and special. I think when an organisation goes through large-scale change, there's a period of stabilisation that needs to take place before progress can happen. Well, actually becoming a new organisation, as the "new Sidmouth" has, is about as monumental as a change can get!

Sidmouth's survival instinct is pretty extraordinary. And what I'm trying to say is, don't write it off yet as "just another town-based festival". It's still finding its feet, and wonderful things may well be on the horizon.

I have to say that what I experienced last year was very special. And outward-looking. And welcoming and inclusive. It was one of the best festival experiences of my life. I turned up feeling a complete interloper, knowing hardly a soul, and left with loads of wonderful new friends and feeling like Sidmouth now belonged to me, too. And so looking forward to 2007! Though as I'm cottaging this year, I shan't be watching sun comes up over the campsite. It's high time I acted my age. :)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 06:20 PM

""started on Rabelais for smut and, were still skilled debaters in the 70s"

I suppose that, collectively, the well educated people that you referred to could be termed mass - debaters.

During your perfect education were you never told not to use an apostrophe before "and" ?????? "

That is a mistaken understanding of the correct use for commas (which I expect is what you meant when you said apostrophes). The comma comes before a conjunction when it is used to join two independent clauses. In the case you quoted, the second clause is not independent, so no comma should go there; in fact, putting one there is wrong. Richard's usage is correct. FYI.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Hawker
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:22 PM

Countess Richard, I think maybe that you have looked and seen something that is not there, 'intruders' as you call them are more than welcome at Miskin, I was an intruder there myself a few years ago, and was made very welcome, that is the magic of Miskin, everyone is friendly, the booked artists mix in with the ticket buyers and as it is all on one site, by the end of the 4 day event, everybody knows pretty much everybody, and has, in the main enjoyed everybodies company. Young and old play and sing together, the camp fire burns all weekend and a real sharing community builds up throughout the weekend. I look forward to it because it doesn't smack of commercialism, its not that I am against commercialism, but it is refreshing to go to an event where the emphasis really is on enjoyment not profit. As I have heard said in the past.....'Don't knock it 'till you've tried it!
With regard to this thread, Maybe it is our little club, this folkie world, but there again, move in classical music circles and there is a definate'club' there too, I am sure the same can be said of all genres of the music world. Personally I find that sad. I like to embrace all types of music and share the enjoyment, I admire the tenacity of those that ran sidmouth and who now do run sidmouth, It is a HUGE event, but not for me, as I have said before, as it is, ticket wise, out of my price range. I have visited on the fringe and enjoyed myself greatly. But as has been said on another thread, the fringe element are, to a point a contentious issue, are they spongeing on those who pay for the tickets? I wouldn't want to be accused of that, its purely that financially my situation means I can not do otherwise.
Finally, I personally laughed out loud at the first post in this thread, we all surely know someone like this, or have seen shades of this attitude, maybe at some point we have been guilty of it ourselves, but hey, It shows we care and are passionate about what we enjoy! Lets not hate each other for that, lets embrace it and get on with the music - I am sure as hell Id rather do that than bicker and fall out over a wry comment by a person too scared to post under their own name - a thing I am proud to say i have never done or been tempted to do!
I'm off back to the clubhouse, anyone care to join me for a tune and a song?!!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:58 AM

"Some of the best educated people I ever knew went into libraries to keep warm in the Great Slump, started on Rabelais for the smut, and were still skilled debaters in the 70s."

The above sentence is correct. The commas in that sentence are of the type known are "parenthetical commas" since they perform the function of parentheses. Parenthetical commas must be paired.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:06 AM

Richard:
       I've been trying to stop doing that because people keep telling me it's wrong. Is there a difference between Canadian and British grammar in this regard?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:16 AM

Ah pedantry. Jolly good.
Richard is technically right.
It would, however, be even better to use two sentences, viz:

. . . Slump. They started on . . .

in which case, the comma after 'smut' would become redundant.
Yes, parenthetical commas should be used in pairs, but all commas should be used sparingly. Not in the manner of black pepper, sprinkled liberally and randomly throughout sloppy, inpenetrable prose.
Similarly, the use of apostrophes ought not to be gleaned from the School of Greengrocery.
This is one way in which you can always spot Mrs Route under whatever handle: she invariably employs IT'S as a possessive when the sole use of an apostrophe in that word is to indicate omission.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:43 AM

Rest assured, my pepper is placed perfectly, or so I believe, in every phrase, sentence, chapter and verse which I, in my own inimitable fashion, choose to write.
And I can begin a sentence with whichever word I choose because I am no longer a student.
Furthermore, I can make my sentences as long as I want them to be.
Or short.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:57 AM

'Or short' is too short to be a sentence as it contains no verb.
Or, indeed, a subject. (Which is also not a sentence).

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:23 AM

Syntax is explicit.
You cannot assume that people will realise what you meant to write but missed out because ou hought it was implicit..
Especially here . . . (ahem).

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:32 AM

My keyboard 'missed out' the initial letters of 'You Thought', in the mistaken belief that we are playing some kind of game.
And the above post was in reply to an Anonymous Guest who thought that if a predicate is 'implicit', it makes grammatical sense. This is far too great an assumption.
I mention this because, as the Guest's identity is neither implicit nor explicit, the post is unlikely to survive.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:33 AM

The shortest English sentence is probably "Go."   "Go" is an action verb and can be used in imperative mood, which means that it can be used with good, old "You Understood." So "Go" actually means "You go." On the other hand, if that interpretation doesn't strike your fancy, let's say that understood meanings are disallowed, then "I go" is the shortest sentence. "Go" doesn't require a complement since it is an action verb nor does it require a direct object. With a total of three letters—the same number as the illegal "I am" contender—"I go" should reign as the champion, unless someone out there knows of a single letter verb. (No fair pulling in Old English and foreign languages.)

Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:39 AM

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:47 AM

He would if he read this thread.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Barden of England
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 07:04 AM

GUEST,Sandra - That was wonderful. Brought tears to my eyes.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:35 AM

No!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bainbo
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:19 AM

O!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:33 AM

?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Hawker
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:42 PM

.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:57 PM

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:00 PM

thank goodness we still have a sense of humour..... well MOST of us do

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:25 PM

I really love this track by Good Charlotte called Keep Your Hands off My Girl.

You can hear it on this site
http://www.myspace.com/goodcharlotte

Try doing a slip jig and a hornpipe to that.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:47 PM

You'd be surprised at how many people play tunes originally in 9/8 and 3/2 just like this.
Or maybe you wouldn't.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:59 PM

yes, perverted devils....!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: growler
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 06:22 PM

Richard Bridge, I love you to bits, but I havn't got a clue what you're going on about. Maybe I'm thick, but I did manage to muddle through a Grammer education without being able to spell, or speak Latin

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 02:29 AM

He's right. Commas have more than one function.

If they're separating items in a list, you don't need one before 'and'.

You use a pair of commas around a subordinate clause in the same way as you would use brackets.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 04:48 AM

I don't think the grammatical rules you might normally use in a written piece need necessarily apply to a discussion forum such as this. I often break 'rules' and I know I'm doing it, but posting in Mudcat is equivalent to a conversation, not a feckin' dissertation.

I try to use capitals and punctuation where appropriate, though, as a matter of courtesy to other readers. Some posters (who shall remain nameless) seem a bit lazy in this respect, which makes their postings (otherwise often very worthwhile in content) a lot more difficult to read - these people are taking the goodwill and patience of others too much for granted, IMO.

Yes, I do sometimes make errors but these are usually typos.

Er... how did we get onto this rather boring subject, anyway? Can't we get back to the punch-up - I mean, discussion?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Bainbo at work
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 04:51 AM

But consider the Oxford comma - also known as the Harvard comma. It's put before and to resolve ambiguity.

My favourite types of sandwiches are Marmite, jam, cheese and ham and tomato.

It's not clear whether that list includes a cheese and ham sandwich and a tomato sandwich; or a cheese sandwich and a ham and tomato sandwich.

My favourite types of sandwiches are Marmite, jam, cheese, and ham and tomato.

Now that makes it clear.

Sometimes it's put before and at the end of a list of three things, if it's possible that the first item could be made up of the second two. Wikipedia reports the apocryphal book dedication:
To my parents, Ann Rynd and God.

You make it clear by putting in a final comma:
To my parents, Ann Rynd, and God.


Thank you

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,An Observer
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 05:33 AM

And another thing, apart from our Little Club deciding what folk IS and ISN'T, we reserve the right to turn discussions into a load of old bollocks to prove how clever we are.

And we still hate Seth Lakeman, Kate Rusby, Lisa Knapp and anyone else who WE decide just doesn't fit in with our image what a folk singer should look and sound like. They should all be scruffy, and ever so slightly mingin, and tolerably unsuccessful.

And we reserve the right to adopt stupid nick names like, Scrumpy, Bumpy, Lumpy, and Chumpy. Catty, Splatty, Twatty, Dave, Dee, Beaky, Mick and Titch.

And I just hope I got the feckin' comas in the feckin' right feckin' places.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 05:34 AM

I hope you get a coma in the right place too, Observer.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,An Observer
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 05:45 AM

Priceless Scrump. This is becoming addictive. Must get some work done though.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: skipy
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 05:53 AM

So, I'm not a mmember of the club then! you missed my stupid nick name of the list!
Have some commas:-,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!
Skipy

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 05:59 AM

An Observer,

You missed out Dozy!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 06:00 AM

Hi Growler. That would be "grammar"? Please also specify the latin to which you refer.

I think we need a new word. You see, to pedants like me, a folk musician should play folk music and folk music has been defined (see other threads). We also have very pleasant singarounds, song sessions, and sessions (note the Oxford or Harvard comma) at which quite a lot of music that is not folk music is played, listened to and enjoyed. That music is however distinguishable from other more populist types which (English and US readers will disagree over whether there should be a comma before "which") usually revolve around more amplification and have developed from, in many cases, different sources.

In practice the performers of this unnamed music are usually welcomed. It is the perfectly correct observation that what they are doing is not "folk" that gives the incorrect impression of exclusion.

I have previously suggested "New Folk" by analogy to "New Country" quite a lot of which is no longer new and quite a lot of which was never country.   Any better ideas?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 07:08 AM

The comma between Dave and Dee is also wrong.

It is 'Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Titch.' Dave was band leader so had his full name included. He personally turned me down for a major record deal in the 80s (he was head of A&R for Big Record Company Ltd by then). :-(

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 07:14 AM

Sorry, GUEST, do you mean that he was a "Snake in the grass"? No matter which way you "Bend it", you cannot "Touch me".

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 07:20 AM

If only you knew, George!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 09:37 AM

You're right about the 'Oxford comma' - I just couldn't be bothered to go on about it earlier!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 09:39 AM

I hate tomatoes!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Geordiekiss
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 09:49 AM

We don't need your "Oxford comma" up North. Our sentences are just fine without your interfering, and frankly pedantic, command of the English language. Desist forthwith!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 09:56 AM

Thought the Geordies were all in a collective comma anyway.
Good Morning all from the drizzly Highlands, Victoria, BC.
Jim

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

Yeah if I wanna put commas in I will if I don't I won't.

and if i wanna miss out capital letters I'll do that too.

and as for apostrophes and full stops ill just put them in when i feel like it so there and as for paragraphs who cares ill just not bother with them and just put all the words in one big lump like this and iph eye pheal lyke speling sumthing rong ill doo that two thatll lurn yew fekkin peddance

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 11:27 AM

abbzolootlie

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 11:31 AM

I think we need a new word. You see, to pedants like me, a folk musician should play folk music and folk music has been defined (see other threads). We also have very pleasant singarounds, song sessions, and sessions (note the Oxford or Harvard comma) at which quite a lot of music that is not folk music is played, listened to and enjoyed. That music is however distinguishable from other more populist types which (English and US readers will disagree over whether there should be a comma before "which") usually revolve around more amplification and have developed from, in many cases, different sources.

In practice the performers of this unnamed music are usually welcomed. It is the perfectly correct observation that what they are doing is not "folk" that gives the incorrect impression of exclusion.

I have previously suggested "New Folk" by analogy to "New Country" quite a lot of which is no longer new and quite a lot of which was never country.   Any better ideas?

I think this is worthy of a separate thread, Richard. Would you care to do the honours?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 11:53 AM

Excellent idea - both the phrase and the thread

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bainbo
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 12:30 PM

...interfering, and frankly pedantic, command of the English language


I'm not sure "pedantic" is exactly the right word in this context ...

:-)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 01:17 PM

Thank you for the invitation. I shall suit the deed to the words. No, indeed, I will suit the deed to the words.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Folk Police
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM

We even have our own website

http://www.sunloch.demon.co.uk/museum.htm

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Dita
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 03:39 PM

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish - PM
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 04:56 AM

"Now if I'd been one of Dick Gaughan's Girlies, I'd have been safe..."

Sorry I don't want to prolong this thread, but who are these "Girlies." I'd pay good money to see them.

Great name for a band, mabye we could start a thread for a fantasy girlie folk group.

John

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Desdemona
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 05:13 PM

Hell, I'll join!

~D

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 07:54 PM

Blicky functioneth not.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 01:01 AM

http://www.sunloch.demon.co.uk/museum.htm

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 01:02 AM

The above functioneth as it shouldeth.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 01:17 AM

Obliged. Servant, etc.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 05:20 AM

fantasy girlie folk group

Good grief.
And Jesus wept (again)
Dick Gaughan would be considerably more impressed by support from the women's section of the Leith engineering workers' union.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Diva
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 03:58 PM

Hell John that'll be me and Jannet and Liz and Isla doing the shoo whoops then!!!!!!! But not Cathie Anne MacPhee cos you never see her and Liz in the same room
cu @ Girvan