BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Now yer talkin showman... barker. What is gonna take to get you to buy this war now? If you walk out that door the boss may not give you near as good a deal when you come back.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

Cheerleader? Then there's The Great Prestigitator- Ronnie RayGun- who is responsible for the crapper that the U.S. is currently in. Ably assisted by The Duke.

Both spinners of delusional fantasy. And the Boobocracy ate 'em up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

Don't ye all go badmouthin The Duke. He was one of the best cheerleaders ever in the good ol US of A eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM

Especially John Wayne, who took on the Nazis in hand-to-hand combat while never leaving Hollywood for the entire 1940's.

Classic American hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM

Al, John Wayne a Draft Dodger.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

Doesn't you heart yearn for the good old days when John Wayne and William Bendix would have polished these bastards off in five minutes? Just a few B feature actors for the Duke to shove around, whip into shape and grow a few sweaty whiskers for Bendix's death scene. Then maybe a walk-on at the end for Henry Fonda to give out a Congressional Medal of honour to the Duke and a few purple hearts to the B actors.

Those cats knew how to have a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

The Libyan armed forces have just announced a cease fire...again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, would have been nice if there has been polls in Iraq prior to Bush ordering up the invasion... Yeah, ever hear where the cure is worse than the disease???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

I am wondering the same myself, Richie. The only reference I've heard is from an analyst on AlJazeera who said that the vast majority are opposed to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

Obviously, this is not a country that does polls or allows polls to be done, but has anyone any idea what percentage of Libyans actually support his leadership. I imagine the rebels are in the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

As I was turning off my computer last night, I took one quick peek at Mudcat and saw this thread. My first reaction was to want to lead an armed rebellion on Washington, D. C.

But wanting to find out a few more facts, I then turned on the radio to my local NPR affiliate. I was informed that the air attack on Libya just under way had been ordered by the UNITED NATIONS, was being spearheaded by FRENCH fighter jets, and the Tomahawk missiles were being fired from BRITISH submarines offshore. There were AMERICAN F-18 fighter jets involved, along with Harrier jump-jets, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) are BRITISH, going after the Libyan air defense system.

And where did I hear this spurious and slanderous report trying whitewash the roll of yet another heinous American grab for oil by trying to implicate other counties, such as Britain and France? Obviously, from that well-known voice of the American Right Wing—National Public Radio.

Nope. What I was listening to was NPR's regular midnight news feed from—

(Steady, now. . . .)

The BBC.

The only exercise some people around here seem to get is instantaneous knee-jerk reactions.

You might learn a few facts before gleefully piling on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

1. If the term "civilian" is to have any meaning in the internal Libyan conflict it can only refer to someone who is not an insurrectionist. Compare the IRA. Notice the word "Army" in their name?

2. Gadaffi's threats (at least as far as I read) were only against those not yielding to his advancing troops.

3. The troops were legitimately deployed against rebels - whichever side you prefer, and I probably prefer the rebels but preference is not the point, legitimacy is).

4. That deployment was internal to Libya and posed no threat to any external politic.

5.   For the UN to assume jurisdiction over such an internal matter is iffy at best. It wasn't a threatened genocide and the UN has ignored enough genocides over the years to constitute precedent.

6. I have not seen (that doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I haven't seen it) any threat of civilian (as I defined it) massacre.

7. So there was no pressing reason to enforce a "no-fly" zone anyway (other than a desire to interfere).

8. Gadaffi's missile sites around Tripoli were not apt for use for any massacre of civilians in Benghazi.

9. They had not been deployed against any foreign aircraft or other targets.

10. Thus the "Allied" assault can only have been a pre-emptive strike (not legitimate under international law) on an internal mission in a sovereign state (not legitimate under international law) as a matter of interference in internal politics (not legitimate under international law).

11. The position might have been different if there were a declared war or steps by Libya to launch an undeclared war - but there is no sign of any such.

This is colonialist aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM

Charlie, don't want to get your feet dirty?


(Neither do I).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: JHW
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

Killing one bastard in Iraq seemed like a good idea but the place turned out to be full of them

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Here we go again...

If the US and it's buddies are so interested in regime change why is it that they kill everyone else first before getting to the bad guy???

Two week before the Iraq invasion Dan Rather got to sit across the table from Saddam... If Dan Rather could get that close, don't tell me that a Special Op couldn't...

Same with Gadaffi... If yer gonna kill him anyway why not just do itr and leave everyone else alive???

(But, Boberdz... We don't approve of assassination...)

Oh??? But blowing up other folks is okay???

Give me a break...

Shoot the sumabich and call it a day...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM

The Arab League has criticised the military strikes on Libya.
The Arab League said that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers. Only Qatar has openly supported the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

How do you define a civilian, insurgent, rebel, terrorist bobad?

Weasel words from weasel governments!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

Problem is George, when they miscalculate, hundereds of thousands die and the war mongers walk away to write their memoirs or take up lucrative jobs as "peace envoys".

The men women and children of Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya are the victims.

These people are seeing their children killed and mutilated for a lie
Democracy is not freedom, especially the type of democracy granted to to us.....and they can look forward to something even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:50 AM

The mandate of resolution 1973 is a bit broader than just the imposition of a no fly zone, it also authorizes member states to "take all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

"So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?"

It's both of those, Richie. Politics is a matter of sheer pragmatism, and pragmatism trumps principle. Regardless of their rhetoric (which is mostly designed to placate their own public and make themselves look noble), governments undertake military actions of choice only when they think they can:

1. afford to do it
2. and succeed at doing it

Sometimes they miscalculate on both of those accounts. Time will tell whether they have miscalculated when it comes to getting involved in the conflict in Lybia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:53 AM

A "no-fly zone" means no flying is allowed by the forces against which it is directed.

The first logical stage in enforcing this is proper monitoring to ensure that it is being observed.

Only if there is evidence that it is being ignored is it appropriate to send up aircraft to enforce it, and the matter of ground-missiles etc become relevant.

Otherwise it's a bit like telling bank robbers to come out with their hands up, and shooting them when they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:48 AM

Pity there wasn't such compassion shown to stop the Ethiopian civil war.
Can we expect the U.N.to launch humanitarian missions in other countries in an effort to save millions from being slaughtered by other lunatic dictators ?

As I recall, they didn't bomb China after the events in Tiananmen Square. Or pull North Korea over their dreadful human rights record.

So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:26 AM

well said Bobert ... 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I agree

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

I totally disagree with this action.
If there was consistency about american and european interference in other countries internal affairs, it might be more acceptable, but in truth the west does not care one iota about dictators killing their citizens, if they did they would have acted against Mugabe in Zimbabwe,The leader of the Yemen, Pinochet in Chile[ 30 YEARS OR SO AGO].
the west has tolerated gaddaffi for 40 years because it suited them, they do not care a fig about the people of libya

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:12 AM

...glass half empty??????

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I guess what bothers me the most is this idea that what is occurring in the Middle East and Northern Africa is probably going to be more regime change than meaningful change... I mean, even if some sore of bastardized democracy comes out of it I am fearful that the wealthy, like here in the US, will screw it up so that they continue to monopolize the wealth for themselves...

What we need more than the rearranging of deck chairs is a "revolution" in our thinking where greed and cheating and replaced with sharing and fairness... Until the US, which seems to be the model, cleans up it's act I don't see any fundamental changes occurring by booting one bad guy, putting in what folks might thing is a good guy only to see that good guy become the new bad guy...

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... Or...

...("Animal Farm", George Orwell...)...

Same story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM

Sorry, badly-garbled post. Yertis again, proper job.

Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arnie
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Difficult to know what to do for the best here. With memories of the Srebenica massacre still being invoked, it would be seen as a repeat performance if the UN stood back and let mad-dog Gaddafi's murderous bunch loose on Benghazi with almost a million citizens living there.He has promised to root out the rebels (ie: everyone)house by house. I suspect that the atrocities that would be visited on these civilians would evenutally prompt some form of UN action but it would be too late to save many innocent lives. I suppose the best hope is that the Libyan military depose Gaddafi rather than see their assets blown to bits over the next few weeks. Unfortunately we're told that the command structure of the Libyan army is dominated by Gaddafi loyalists and will protect their man to the bitter end.If boots on the ground are needed, then it's time for the Arab league to stand up and prove that they are not just a talking shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

<>i>Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

You don't declare a cease fire or even a seven fire one minute and then carry on bombing your own people the next. Thank goodness we now have a properly schooled statesman - like leader in David Cameron and not the hideous bumbling Brown!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

And the "rebels" shot down their own jet!! The lefties ought to be glad that the former oil workers in Libya no longer have the opportunity to earn UK tax free salaries there.

By the way, we don't care what goes on in Rhodesia - it's of no consequence!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM

Well, without being emotional.

In order to enforce THIS No-Fly Zone (which historically don't actually seem to do much good), you need to be able to enforce it.

In enforcing it then Air Superiority is essential. You do NOT have Air Superiority if your enforcing aircraft are susceptible to SAM attack/defence (depending on your viewpoint).

Libya has quite sophisticated ground to air defence which includes Command and Control assets in addition to the missiles and AAA - plus their ability to service, re-supply and repair them.

It is these that would be attacked (and the cynic in me thinks there may just be one or two other 'targets').

Above are facts. What makes me squirm are the photos of Tony Bliar and Gaddafi having a cuddle not too long ago. How we (the Brits) welcomed this pariah in from the cold. Most rank and file Brits found that embarrassing and distasteful - without the PANAM bomber stuff, that just made it worse.

Now we're attacking our 'good mate' because he's vowed to show no mercy to his (revolting, as he sees it) population.

Notice the consistency of the UN here. How quickly was this resolution of legality passed? Look how quickly they responded to Darfur (oops did I say that?).

The cynic in me thinks the only missing ingredient to the genocide 'we' so quickly reacted to in Darfur is OIL.

But I'm sure our public servants wouldn't be so shallow . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Allan Conn
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:45 AM

"I believe Germany abstained from voting on the Security Council resolution."

Britain and 'unusually' France have been advocators of action. Germany like Russia, China, Brazil and India did abstain from the vote. No-one voted against it and of course wouldn't a Russian or Chinese no vote be a veto on the action itself? Germany seems disinclined to be involved directly but Chancellor Merkel has hinted at offers of help - one of which possibly would be deploying more troops in Afghanistan to free up some there. The African and Middle-Eastern countries on the council at the moment all voted for the resolution and the Arab League were calling for it. So whatever one thinks about the action itself I think it is a bit unfair if some use it as another opportunity for a round of American bashing

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM

March 19, 2003 - Bush / Iraq
March 19, 2011 - Obama / Libya

I believe some things don't Change

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 AM

And when the US, overextended and hated falls under inflation and the weight of the evil it does overseas and at home, how quickly will Americans turn on each other and point fingers, rather than demanding now, the we stop using war to suddunly bolster up our endangered ecconomy.
How strange that just as the US becomes unsure of its ability to maintain its position as the reserve currency, we begin to make war around the world - folks we dealt with for years and excused their evil are now in our gunsites... not every where mind you, but in the places which are questioning using the US dollar as their transactional currency.
It is time to put some leaders on trial for the crime of killing people in lands with which we have no declaired war. We talk of the UN giving this murder sanction, but what about individuals we are killing in Pakistan, kidnapping in Italy... this has become a lawless nation and the real Nevel Chamberlands are the ones who excuse the actions of this nation.
Germany called all its expantionist actions justified by past wrongs. We are a nation tottering on ecconomic disaster responding by war. Just as in the gulf of Tonkin, we can always find or make excuses to go to war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:20 AM

Considering how much Britain is in debt and how much cost cutting is happening here, I question the UK being involved at all,aprt from giving the OK.

Who will pay for this Mr Cameron?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM

At least two corrupt political systems hoping for a "Falklands bounce".

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:27 AM

Still not sure why the UN has gone into Libya, yet remains deaf, blind and very dumb over Zimbabwe and Mugabe who's killed so many of his own people...

Isn't it weird though, that the countries we always seem to invade have something we want, whilst those who don't are allowed to continue their atrocities unabated...

The Causes of War are nearly as slippery as Oil itself.....


Sorry, People of Zimbabwe, we WOULD come and help, but er...we're fighting this Oil War at present, but don't panic, try to hold on, because we'll be there soon as we can..........


Meanwhile, back in the Middle East the soft mumblings of 'jihad' will soon rise to an almighty "****JIHAD!!!*****" as the Mighty Mullahs whip their people up into a foaming frenzy against the Wicked Witches & Wizards of the West.....

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM

"Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:03 AM

"You skin this and I'll go get you another."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: J-boy
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:45 PM

I'm so sick of this shit it makes me want to head out for the hills and hang with Jeremiah Johnson.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:26 PM

I'm not going to touch this thread with a ten-foot pole.

See you all later.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 10:13 PM

Phil Ochs was right.

"We're the cops of the world."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:54 PM

Rap, I believe Germany abstained from voting on the Security Council resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM

Funny...those missiles came from US and BRITISH ships and submarines. The first air flights French. Jets from Denmark and Canada are on their way to bases in Italy. Both Germany and the Arab League are supporting this UN-sanctioned action.

Personally, I think this whole thing is wrong. But don't go putting all the blame on the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:41 PM

Well said, Richie.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM

Strange that the U.N. didn't launch this humanitarian mission years ago to defend Palestinians being murdered by the 51st state of America.

The current situation in Libya It is costing us approximately £17 million an hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:32 PM

I don't think it is just about oil. It's the threat of a good example. Compare some health statistics, from WHO:

Libya

Saudi Arabia

Libya has half the per capita income of Saudi Arabia, and spends proportionately less of its GDP on health care, but has life expectancy a few years greater and substantially lower infant mortality.

That's what egalitarianism does. The US isn't going to allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM

Yeah. Let the bastard who was involved in the Lockerbie bombing kill his own people."

Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't. You, and anyone else who thinks that Megrahi was guilty, seriously need to do some research. Had Megrahi gone to appeal instead of being released on compassionate grounds he would almost certainly have been pardoned. That path was denied him by our stupid legal system. And it's clear to anyone with a brain that Colonel Gadaffi "admitted" to Libya's involvement for purely cynical, expedient reasons, to get sanctions lifted and to get himself back into the bosom of the family of nations. The sooner the west, particularly the yanks, start to lose this lynch-mob mentality and start to look honestly at the facts of the case, the quicker the victims of Lockerbie will truly get justice. They certainly haven't got it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 08:14 PM

It doesn't matter what political party wins. The only thing that changes in the White House is the suit, and what guy is wearing it. It is about oil .

Decades come and decades go
and still our children die