BS: We've lost a good one

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: bbc
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:09 AM

Cruiser,

Many Mudcat members have, at some time, thought something happened on Mudcat that, for us, was the last straw & have left or intended to leave. Many have also realized that, in addition to crap & drivel, there's still some great information & people on Mudcat & we have made the decision to remain. We read fewer threads, post less, & skip the posts of some members & guests assiduously, but still keep in regular touch. I disagree w/ your conclusion that discussing his dissatisfaction w/ Mudcat makes Jerry pretentious in any way. It seems clear that Jerry wasn't trying to make a grand exit, as some of us in our frustration have done. The only question is whether his name should have been mentioned in this thread at all. And, I don't fault jimmiet for that, either. He was frustrated that our forum might be losing a positive, intelligent, articulate, & talented member. I simply hope that Jerry, Art, & others of their ilk will realize that there is still something of value here & will choose to remain.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:09 AM

We'll have to stop meeting like this, Charlie!

RtS
(people are starting to talk..)

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: fat B****rd
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:40 AM

I'm with the Skiffler.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:00 AM

Living in cloud-cuckoo land will not help. The reality is that this (sadly) is a moderated forum. Many posters have editing imposed upon them by just posting in an entire thread that is deleted or closed, where vounteers can't be bothered to take the time or make the effort just to edit the few offending ones.

The bullets are being fired by our volunteers, but the casualties and the only ones that are being affected by this single measure, are just the ones standing too close or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Posters like the one's we have lost (not forever I trust) are encouraged by this so-called moderation to think that the forum can be maintained or improved by this single reactive measure. It is pretty clear to anyone that this moderation has had no effect at all upon the intentionally unpleasant postings that has caused many posters to leave and continues to inhibit many others.

And what is the reaction to these recent losses? Calls for yet more judgement and more measures to be imposed! Many may agree that the current editing measures have not been very effective in addressing the problem it was designed for but I would go even futher. The current moderation actually encourages the unpleasantness that so many object to.

There are many reasons for this, the first is that it is seen as a challenge - a red rag to many bulls. But the example given by our (mostly well-intentioned) volunteers, is one of expessing a judgement of the worth of invited contributions. This example is followed and everyone seems to think they are entitled to judge everyone else's postings and request that editing action be imposed upon the postings of other's in order to shape the forum.

Some volunteers set the example of bringing the thread to the top by insulting right back and being just as offensive as the posting they are reacting to. How can volunteers have any credibility for combatting personal attacks - when they think their volunteer status entitles them to make personal attacks or to react in kind, if they feel they are under attack. No one forces these volunteers to undertake this editing and if they do not like receiving criticism (founded or unfounded) - they are not the right people for the 'role', or the role needs to be redefined.

The starting point is that no one has any control over the postings of others and chasing about trying to get rid of those that are thought to be damaging - only draws more attention to them, which is the entire reason why these posts are made in the first place.

Meanwhile back on the music threads, mostly life goes on and the vast majority of people are unaware of the unpleasantness going on and the hysterical reaction to it, mostly in the BS forum. Which is exactly where it should be as this now mainly acts as a safety valve. So if folk are offended by the BS they find on the BS forum - who have they got to blame?

I have been posting here for a long time (after a short departure and return) and I have the only EDIT button I need. I like the forum as it it, reflecting all the contributors. I may not like many of these but no one is forcing me or anyone else to even open any thread - are they?

Perhaps our recent departures will continue to post as an unamed guests? I hope by self-moderation and a by a better example being set by all of us and especially our volunteers - that our forum will be a place that these fine folk will feel they would like to contribute to again.....

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:48 AM

The #1 trouble maker around here is GUEST.

Not so, because GUEST (nameless) isn't a person, it's a label used by a load of people who for a number of reasons choose to cloak themselves. Some are no doubt members, some are regular hangers-on around here, including at least one who and some are occasional visitors.   

I don't like the practice, can't see any good reason for it, and I'd like to see a requirement that anyone posting as GUEST has to put in some kind of name, however temporary. That wouldn't involve any kind of censorship and could save a lot of confusion. Maybe it'll happen some time, bit there's no point in banging on about it. However it's a mistake to create a fantasy about GUEST (nameless) being some kind of hovering consistent presence. The namelessness is irritating sometimes, but it's the abuse and the knee jerk response to it that's the problem, whoever is responsible for it from time to time.
..................

"I am now out of any thread that *** posts to..." I think that's the wrong way to deal with that kind of situation, Sorcha. It'd just be inviting whoever it was you were trying to avoid to chase you round Mudcat. Much better systematically to skip any posts under the name involved.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:52 AM

If you look at any very old thread you can see we've lost a lot of valuable 'catters over the years. The flamers and bullies don't seem to respond to polite (or impolite) requests. Me, I'm a) thickskinned so don't care what people say or think of me b) have got better things to do with my time than argue with or flame people who don't share my opinions and c)I've stopped reading threads and posts that annoy me and waste my time.
Rearrange these words into a well known saying

LIFE A GET

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:43 AM

jimmyt...You started this thread "in good faith". You were put under the usual heavy pressure. You did what you thought best at the time which at the end of the day is all any of us can do.
Ignore the negative remarks....people are attacked here for anything "someone else" (very often a Guest) seems to want to exploit as what they think is weakness in another. You have not been weak. Keep on keeping on my friend.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:59 AM

Well, I didn't think it was 'nasty', just honest. And, I basically just told him not to bother stalking me....because I have ways of finding out....so, I'm out of this thread....forever. I am now out of any thread that Martin Gibson posts to....See ya down the road.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:39 AM

Mr. Art Thieme,

Surely you aren't going to leave the music section also?

Say it ain't so!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:03 AM

Any member who publicly announces or privately relates that he is leaving Mudcat for such reasons is being pretentious.

I would prefer required membership and deletion of some threads, but the simplest solution is just not reading what you don't like (said many times before by many posters). Stay "above the line" in the music section and don't venture "down here" below if you are faint-of-heart.

Brucie, are you leaving again?! Don't!! You know you will be missed, notwithstanding the pretentiousness.

Jimmyt, you ARE one of the good guys here.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:34 PM

If, indeed, it is Jerry---then it is the last straw---and I am gone too. I don't need this.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:10 PM

Thanks, Guest Lydia.

As for Sorcha, she sent me a nasty PM that she thinks upset me. It didn't and I answered her in what I thought was a very civil matter. What she doesn't realize is how many positive PMs I do get and reply to behind the scenes and her PM was like an old broad waving her finger at me. Yawn. She even said she is married to a some kind of cop and detective and that she would get him after me and that she is such a great person because of this and that. Wow, did she seem uptight and pre-occupied with her status. I am sure that she is probably OK as a person, but that she might be somewhat menopausel(sp) and all that. So, I asked her kindly to not send me anymore crap like that and I hope she will go on her merry way, looking for culture and a life in Wyoming.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST,lydia
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:41 PM

'It's been obvious for the past several months, that Martin Gibson is the #1 trouble maker around here.'

No, no. The #1 trouble maker around here is GUEST. Get people angry with MG and everyone ignores GUEST. Clever but no prize.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:10 PM

It's been obvious for the past several months, that Martin Gibson is the #1 trouble maker around here. Everyone should boycott and ignore his posts completely. What pleasant or positive contribution has this asshole made? All he does is stir up trouble and others feel compelled to react to it. He is a real sicko and every post of his proves it. IGNORE the assholes comepletely.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM

Martin, RE: "BS: We've lost a good one
From: Martin Gibson - PM
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:04 PM

"It will never be a hit.

But for some reason, I can kind of picture Madonna singing it while grabbing her crotch."

This is the kind of garbage that has made you unpopular and unwelcome here....and you seem to manage to do it in a lot of threads....I really need to ask why?

I use the Handle of Sorcha, and prefer it because it is the name I gave myself....but, I am Mary Leigh Green Wise of Torrington, Wyoming, US....what can you say for yourself?

I plan to e mail Jerry and express my sympathy....I will miss him a lot. I wouldn't miss you at all. Sorry, I have tried to make it a Personal Policy never to post to this kind of thread or the political ones either, but Jerry is important to me. Some so called Martin Gibson is not.....

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:27 PM

"Lest anyone ever confuse what Mudcat is, it's a collection of personal tastes posing as absolutes."
       -Jerry Rasmussen


Amen.



And sorry, jimmyt. Leapt to a conclusion I regret above. You followed your heart in starting this thread; I should have seen that. We can hope it does some good and it just may. For my part, I'm steering away from the crap more around here now. It's the music stuff I came here for and that's what I'll come here for again.

Siochain.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:13 PM

If a member posts something that you find upsetting or distasteful or whatever , posting something in the forum does no good at all . All it does , it seems , is set up something for some one else to snipe at . If someone posts something that upsets me , I either totally ignore it , as being not worthy of comment , or send a PM to the poster asking for clarification or justification. This method of response does NOT clutter the forum with unneccessary posts and means that the 'offender' is not publicly reprimanded . Of course ,
anonymous Guest posts can not be replied to in this way . JUST IGNORE THEM !

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:02 PM

"Well, we all have something to say about that."

Yes, and I'm sure we all will still be thrashing through the same sentiments another 350 posts from now, just because we can. It'll be riveting.

jimmyt caved awfully quickly to the pressure to out our victim, didn't he? Remind me never to trust him with the family secrets!

Just joshin' ya there jimmyt. But really, you might want to do some back strengthening exercises.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Peace
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:04 PM

I don't think you did the wrong thing, jimmyt. Jerry is an institution of 'goodness' on the 'cat. I love that man. He talks the talk and he walks the walk. I wish I had 10% of his peacefulness and heart. Helluva man. When I look back at the threads he has started, he has always been positive, making it easy for people like me to find some good about themselves, despite ourselves. There are few people here whose resignation would slam me more. Greedy on my part, because he means very much to me. He was encouraging to me when I was in an ocean of despair. Wrote me for days and days, worrying whether I was comin' around or going further downhill--and trust me when I say that I didn't have all that much further to go. It's possible I owe him my life--I am not aware if he knows that--but it's true. Least I can do is take the walk with you buddy. I owe you too much to wave goodbye from the corner. Really I do.

There are a few people I trade messages with, so I'll keep the cookie. They have become friends, too. And a certain person I hope will one day write back to me--even if only to give me the shit so richly deserve.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: DougR
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:04 PM

As someone else said, people come and people go. When it stops being fun, it IS time leave probably. One has to have a pretty thick skin sometime here on the Mudcat, but that's just the way it is. Perhaps whoever it was, after some time will come back.

I just hope it wasn't Bobert.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM

Let me say that Jerry did NOT tell me that he did not want this to be known. He just didn't want to make one of those "I am leaving" posts that have happened. He is too classy for that.

I have Emailed him and told him of my actions and apologised to him, which, as a friend, I am sure Jerry will accept. I did this as soon as I had posted

I was goaded to bring forth the name. I did. I acted in an emotional manner because of what I perceive as a darn shame that is happening on an otherwise wonderful forum. I wish I had never brought it up but I did. I still feel the same about what a shame it is that it happened.

For those of you who feel I did the wrong thing, for those who feel I have violated a trust, for those of you who can conceivably find any more fault with me about this, I am sorry you feel that way.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:12 PM

A member thought I'd insulted him. He pm'ed me. I responded -- turned out we had been (roughly) in the same place at the same time, and no insult was intended (anything but!). So everything's cool.

Communication is the answer for those courageous enough to join. Others, with few exceptions, I think are cowardly sell-outs who are stooging for Big Brother. I saw it in the Sixties, and it's back today.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:11 PM

The mind boggles MG :-)

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: pdq
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:09 PM

Jerry Rasmussen resigning from Mudcat?

Well, we all have something to say about that.

We refuse to accept your resignation. Period.

End of problem!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:04 PM

It will never be a hit.

But for some reason, I can kind of picture Madonna singing it while grabbing her crotch.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM

Jerry is a good one. Yes indeed. I hope he comes back. And I dearly hope that the people who have been messing upo this place so he felt it didn't feel worth staying will evaporate. Here's a song I wrote some time back thanking Jerry for his songs, which can have a magucal effect sometimes. I've posted it before, but I feel like posting it again now, to say thank you again to him:

Now the day had been long and the day had been rough
And one way and another we'd all had enough.
When Kitty came home in a terrible mood
We looked at each other, and we knew what to do.
In a time like today there is just one escape -
So we dug out the record we'd made from that tape.
And we put on the record, and it started to play.
And a change in the music brought a change in the day.
For when Jerry was singing it happened once more,
And soon Kitty was dancing around on the floor.
And as Jerry was singing a handful of songs,
Kitty was singing along.

Will you sing me a song? Will you play me a tune?
Will you tell me th'old tale of the Man in the Moon?
Will you give me a reason, so I can pretend
It'll all be all right in the end?
Yes I'll sing you a song. And I'll play you a tune.
And I'll tell you th'old tale of the Man in the Moon.
And I'll give you a reason to make and to mend -
It'll all be all right in the end.
And when Jerry is singing it happens once more,
And soon Kitty is dancing around on the floor.
And as Jerry is singing a handful of songs,
Kitty is singing along.

Now I made up this song 'cos I wanted to say
"Thank you, my friend" and this seemed the best way.
With your tunes and your songs and your banjo and all
It seems like you're standing and playing in the hall.
And though we've never met, and most like never will,
I count you a friend, lives just over the hill.
Though the hill is an ocean, and a long ways to climb
Still the music can make it, and it works every time.
For when Jerry is singing it happens once more,
And soon Kitty is dancing around on the floor.
And as Jerry is singing a handful of songs,
Kitty is singing along.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM

quis custodiat ipsos custodes
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:52 PM

I wish I could lay a couple of good deadly episodes of bleeding on mine enemies. I'd start with the Sons of Norway, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:50 PM

I always kind of dig the backfiring irony to a poster when he starts a thread like this and
BOOM!

it just goes all to hell on him.

Anyone know what's for dinner tonight?

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:48 PM

Seems so, but never mind, I tried.

I don't intend to get caught up in flaming etc. Made my point, if nobody seems to agree, then fine. That is democracy.

I will go back to sleep :-) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:45 PM

Well, can't say as I ever had the pleasure, but I always wanted to tell him I was never impressed by his political machinations......

oh, wait......

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST,The Newt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:43 PM

Burn jimmyt! Burn jimmyt! Burn! Burn him! Burn him!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:40 PM

Yes, Jerry is a good one. I'm sorry he's decided to go; he had a lot to contribute. But if the place was getting to him that much, I'm glad he decided to avoid the irritation. Maybe he'll return in which case I hope he enjoys the break. If not, then I'm the richer for his posts here.

At the same time, if he didn't want to announce his leaving, why did you do it, jimmyt? Seems like you've crossed a line here. I sure wouldn't trust you with a secret. Not that I would anybody on the Internet, bosom cyberpal or no.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:19 PM

Villan, too bad, but yours is a losing arguement.

I even say, too bad about Jerry. He wasn't a bad guy, even though some of his posts made me think of a guy frolicking in a meadow with a bunch of butterflies around him.

He will probably come back.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM

Mudcat is to folk these days, what draught is to beer.

Good draught beer is the best beer.

If Jerry's gone that's a real shame. It's only a small handful of people who screw up this place, but that's all it takes. But if only the rest of us could learn not to get sucked into the name calling and that it'd die away.

Any time anybody insults you or anyone else here (I don't mean the play insults that are part of friendship, the real ones are unmistakable, and I don't mean expressions of disagreement, however firm, ), I suggest the thing to do is cut them out completely from your attention - just don't look at their posts in future, don't reply to them, don't acknowledge their existence. Of course they can and do dodge that, by signing in with their cookies removed, but if it could become a custom of the Cat to boycott those kinds of posts, maybe they'd die off through natural selection.

Calling for heavier policing from on high is, I think, a mistake. Indeed, if it came to that, we'd in many ways have lost the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Raedwulf
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:04 PM

jimmy - sorry, my friend, but I have not seen that Jerry gave you permission to name him. Frustration (which I can understand) has led you to give him away. I can understand this, but you are in the wrong. You take his dignity away (&, I might add, I do not agree that he should walk quietly away - he should fight for his board!).

Villan - you are, largely, in the wrong. Members on this board may slang each other freely. Moderation is a tedious, subjective, & onerous task (& I speak as one that has done this task impartially). "Strong" moderation would cripple, if not destroy, Mudcat (again, I speak as one in favour of restricting Guest privileges). What you demand is both impractical & against the Mudcat philosophy.

Who watches the watchmen? Even now, there are those (members!) that bitch against the oppresive & over regulated MC. What price a police force!

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM

With all due respect, this apparently stems from private communication jimmyt has shared with us publicly in a thread, first with veiled references and now naming Jerry. Now that he has named Jerry, what may have simply been a momentary expression of frustration has become much more. If Jerry had wanted to publicize that he was leaving, he'd have done that. This is all escalating into quite the firestorm (here and in other threads). Trust me, that ain't the way to lure anyone back.

Just CHILL, everyone, and let the dust settle!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM

Who the f..k are you? If you don't like the rules of your club then leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:44 PM

Why are you responding as GUEST Guest. Have you not got a name.

If you are a member then say who you are. If not join.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM

Thank you jimmyt.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

you are correct guest

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:34 PM

Are you completely delusional? Guests are not your current problem. Members are.
Did Jerry say who offended him? I bet he had a couple of names to mind. And neither was " GUEST."

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM

Thanks, jimmyt. We've lost a lot of good people over the years because of this kind of crap. We've had lots of debates on whether to go to membership only. So far, that is something Max wants to avoid. we could always leave the Forum the way it is and have a "members only" section.

I hope Jerry will reconsider.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM

JGM
My answer to that is the moderators are the people to look at thread/posts that appear to flame/insult or offend individual mudcatters and take strong action.

Our job as mudcat members is to bring such matters to the moderators attention and not get involved with responding back to such offenders. If you do, you only make matters worse.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: jimmyt
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

I am sorry to seem like a schoolyard taunt,I was trying to respect Jerry Rasmussen's privacy. You bet I am pissed off that anything would happen to run off such a sincere, good guy. There. I said it. If this post somehow offends someone, so be it. I am only trying to stick up for the good guys here. If this is wrong, Too bad. I have had just about enough of the mean spirited snivelling intentional hurtful stuff myself.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: Justa Picker
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:59 PM

With all the good ones "we've" lost over the years, one could create a really killer folk forum from that group. Mudcat is to folk these days, what draught is to beer.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

Sounds like good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM

So what do you do about posts like this?
To-day

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: dwditty
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:52 PM

Just for the record....I am still here....lol

Subject: RE: BS: We've lost a good one
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:43 PM

Amen to what the resident Villan and Hero said. Moderation! Here! Here!