England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

496! Perfect!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

Mr Snail.....Really....I've no idea what you mean!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:11 AM

Surreysinger - I've been quite frank about the fact that, thus far, I've only done mini free-drinks/entry type gigs/spots, as an amateur; so why are you trying to say I've suggested otherwise?
"Aryan superiority" (Diane)...I hate imperialism - be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other, and wish Aboriginal, and other, land rights would be covered in schools here.
"the idea that one should only sing songs of one's own limited locality" (Don)...several earlier folk clubs in England DID have a perform-your-own-national-culture policy.
Dave - if you attend folk festival comps and/or read the rules, you'll see that judges don't have to award places, and that the average number of participants is a few more than you say; also, at Morpeth, e.g., the last 2 or 3 years the hall HAS been pleasingly packed. This is a case of someone being so keen to get at me that they end up knocking things and people they would normally respect and support.
Eliza, Volgadon, Possums - can you accept that my title "Instruments of (or closely associated with) England" doesn't say that these instruments are not associated with any other nation?

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM

Back to Ms Archers arse competition.
(No real point in me entering, obviously!)

No, Ralphie, you're just meant to GAZE up it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM

That could be the answer to a lot of things round here...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:08 AM

I knew I shouldn't have stopped reading this thread - I've just been catching up, and I'm getting very confused. Apparently Ruth wants to put her bum on WAV's list and Diane is just as qualified as he is, although Eliza may or may not be as good at he is on the plastic recorder. I think that's everything. But why do people keep saying 'Volgadon'? It should be 'He who must not be named', surely?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM

Oh shucks ... I know I said I was out of here, but it's getting fun again .... really not sure about the gazing up Ruth's bum competition, but I suppose it has to be better than a spoons competiion. Why should Ralphie declare himself out of the running - is it a heightist thing, do you suppose ? What are the rules for the competition ?

Now the shakey egg as England's national instrument ... why not? Is this where I declare in ashamed tones that I own two of those things (well the lime green one was so pretty), and have actually used one of them in public a couple of times. If it WAS the national instrument there would be so many people who could hold their heads up with pride again at sessions (mind you, it still wouldn't mean that most of them could play them with any degree of skill!)

And as to the scribing on the Cat while at the hairdressers, your hairdresser sounds more up to date than mine, Ruth! Coffee... mmm, now there's a thought .....

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:42 AM

Definitely gazing up MY bum. It's my festival.

Volgadon makes a good point about participative percussion. I thereby nominate the shaky egg as England's national instrument.

In case the Snail thinks I ought to be doing something more productive right now, I'm actually sitting here at the hairdressers having my highlights done. The coffee is very good.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:37 AM

And one memorable time when I was in Australia playing English music, possums...

Yes? Don't keep us in suspense!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM

Vol, old bean.
Couldn't agree more.
And Eliza. Still getting to grips with the CD. Lots going on there!
Well done.
Now...Back to Ms Archers arse competition.
(No real point in me entering, obviously!)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:14 AM

Another excellent post from EC.

In a little Russian industrial town that fits Ewan Maccoll's song better than any, one of my best friends, whose parents were born in the countryside, taught me how to play the spoons. He explained that they were THE folk instrument, forget the kitschy balalaikas. Others have stated the reason, but it's worth repeating. It used to be that villages only had one, maybe two instruments, he said, yet nobody wanted to be left out of the fun, so people would grab whatever they had and join in. Everyone had at least a pair of wooden spoons at home. That's also why Russian music has a lout of whistling, hey's, clapping and boot-slapping. If you can't afford an instrument, you become creative.
That's what's missing in all your pontifications and poscriptions. JOY. FUN.
For you it's a dreary experiment in nationalism.
And that is also why EC sounds more like a Gypsy fiddler than anyone else outside of Eastern Europe, not because she plays that sort of music, but because of the mix of joy and plaintiveness in her playing.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:03 AM

Or afraid he might win.

I'm a bit confused, do you gaze up your own bum or Ruth's?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:43 AM

you're just afraid you might lose, Spleeny baby.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:13 AM

Tubby honest, Ralphie, right now I'm more worried that someone out there is going to take Ruth's suggestion for a competition seriously...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:32 AM

Just a little thought.

Hands up anyone who agrees with WAVs views....
Surely there must be someone out there in Catland?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

"The World Spoons Championship was held, in ENGLAND, at the Trimdon MUSIC Festival, this year Eliza"

I'm holding the World Gazing Up my Bum Competition at Ruth's Music Festival, to be held next week in my back garden. First prize: a plastic recorder and a bowl of pottage.

Does this mean my arse is in the running to be England's National Musical Instrument? God, I hope so...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

Well said, Missus. And you thought Cecil Sharp was a knobhead...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM

David,
    Spoons are just spoons. They can be played in any country as a form of percussion, as can tin cans, stones and glasses. And one memorable time when I was in Australia playing English music, possums...folk tend to play what they can get their hands on in the real world, that's folk music for you.
Not everyone has a recorder shop nearby...specialised folk music instruments are often very expensive. Are normal people supposed to save up until they can afford their culture? Or do they just make do with a plastic recorder from school...which I still have, but I stopped playing just the one line of melody as soon as I discovered there were other instruments that could do so much more with the English music that I love. Real people tend to do that, ordinary people, to the bafflement of higher authorities and stone-cold academics, love exploring the boundaries of music and poetry unless under the yoke of a proscriptive regime...and then you no longer have a natural, living culture: you have a dictatorship.
And by the way, Dad developed his signature guitar style by among other things listening to Big Bill Broonzy. It's the thumb. And the provenance, as most folk musics, including the Blues, are inextricably connected through hundreds of years of interaction and a struggling tradition such as ours can learn to communicate from another without shame. Or perish, as ours was close to doing for whatever reason. They can also still be unique, it doesn't necessarily follow that you end up with bland musical soup.
Spoons are not a musical instrument though the playing of them was as popular in Ireland as here, and surely anywhere where anyone wanted to join in by hitting something. As much as it really pains me to say this because "spoons" is also one of my favourite words, you cannot claim them for England whether you put it in bolshie capital letters or not.
Fool. Again you queer this cause with ignorance and intransigence. You play right into the hands of anyone that has ever questioned the worth of the English music debate.
Why do you still come here? If it was to spread your word I think by the weight and volume of the correspondence against you by now it should be clear that you have failed. Go away if you don't want to learn anything, stay if you do, be quiet for a bit and learn something man. You are not a radical. You're a steamroller and you're not even halfway informed. It won't work, I've tried it, all you will do is piss people off and eventually they will just laugh at you. And by association the cause that you promote.
eliza

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave (Bridge)
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM

To Say one has won singing competitions when there are only two entrants and one gets disqualified for not keeping to the rules, is not winning in my book. Neither is it fantastic to come third out of three

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

Granted, o noble gastropod, one should indeed pick one's arguments. Being a Yank, I'm not totally familiar with what's going on in the U.K. folk scene, but I shall try to educate myself in that regard.

My objection to WAV's blather is his racist and exclusionary attitude, which I would speak out against in any case, and his patently asinine prescriptions and proscriptions about English folk music, enunciating principles that he obviously feels should be applied to all folk music, and to cultures in general. He seems to embrace the idea that one should only sing songs of one's own limited locality, and I cavil at this. I reserve the right to sing any song I damn well want to sing, regardless of what culture it comes from; and anyone who tells me—or others—what they should or should not, can or cannot sing is going to get an argument from me.

Any logical argument that I assert will, I'm sure (after all this), be lost on WAV. But as I said, it's for the benefit of any neophyte who may be misled by him

Just as a note:   one value of this thread (even if it involves giving a sadly ignorant self-appointed pundit far more attention than he deserves) is that, being somewhat less familiar with the U.K. folk scene and singers than I would want to be, it spurred me to look up Eliza Carthy (with whom I was not familiar) on YouTube and hear her sing. Excellent! It has led me to a pleasant discovery.

Now, WAV:

According to you, "English style" guitar playing ". . . would be including the melody in one's picking. . . ."

This still does not distinguish a unique "English style" guitar. Segovia played melodies on the guitar. So does Pepe Romero. Charlie Byrd (American jazz guitarist) did too. John Prine does. Elizabeth Cotton did. Grammy winning African guitarist Ali Farka Touré plays melody lines. My friend Bob Nelson does. So does local folk guitar virtuoso George Austin. So do I.

So—what distinguishes "English style" guitar playing? I have a fairly sophisticated ear. How do I recognize "English style" guitar playing when I hear it, as contrasted with, say, John Prine's or George Austin's playing?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM

I can't really remember how many certificates I've got. A lot, but I'm sure as hell not going to go and count them. There's one for cycling proficiency when I was 9, I think. Yes, I've got a forklift truck driving one too, which I did in Germany while supporting myself at university. So I've had jolly old times on the shop floor too WAV. DON'T suggest we meet and compare notes. Lots for music grades too, but no-one round here thinks THEY mean much. However, if WAV were to take a crash course in sight reading he might sound a bit less painful.

What pisses me off even more than those who think performing trad music is easy and any old crap will do are the ones who try to hijack it for their own nefarious purposes. I will never tolerate the vaguest whiff of vile nationalism or Aryan superiority and have argued and written against such tainted ideology since 1969 when I first wrote a column. There are many musicians and activists who have contributed here who are far more qualified than I am to tell you where to get off. But when it comes to oppression of minorities on the grounds of race, or trivialisation of women on the grounds of gender, I claim first place in the queue to slap you very hard.

Just one last thought to encourage you to run away and hide for ever. I was the first woman to report from a National Union Of Mineworkers conference. I can handle Arthur Scargill. You're a doddle. AND I played Nkosi Sikele i Afrika from the platform (go on, tell me I shouldn't have done that in England, if you dare).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

I don't get that poem. Do you mean that the left lets people in so they could commit terror through their hatred?
That the right wants people in so thy could make money to oppose heritage and shows? Which shows, circus or TV?
Please, please, please LEARN how to use English.


Letting people

Enter a state
For factors like

Terror through hate.



Rewarding those

Interested in

Gains which oppose

Heritage and

The state's own shows.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

E.g. what?

I have a certificate from a Holocaust museum, shall I go to the Wiesenthal Centre and tell them that they have no clue, this is how it should be done.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

"Ruth - please read poems 74 and 75."

Not in a month of Sundays, Crocodile Dundee.



I got a Girl Scout badge for my Barbie collection when I was 10. I think this qualifies me as an expert in post-feminist rhetoric. I'm going to go see if I can find Germaine Greer on an internet forum and harangue her with my superior knowledge...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM

Four years experience ... introduced to the genre by a coup de foudre engendered by a CD ... its just occurred to me that that has a ring of familiarity... I'm getting a sense of deja vu here....

I was about to post a rather lengthy diatribe remarking upon the banality of suggesting that a degree based in anthropology had any relevance to "knowing what to look for" in our chosen field .. might just as well say that about my first class honours degree in geography or my hard won examinations in tax legislation which enabled me to qualify for promotion to HM Inspector of Taxes - those were the days! About as relevant as a degree in nuclear physics I would have said ... I could go on, but life is far too short.

WAV, I would not suggest like Ralphie that you crawl under a stone ... but I certainly would suggest that you keep your head down,go and learn a bit more (again); by all means learn to play your chosen instrument _properly_, and perhaps take some singing lessons - your MySpace recordings are woefully pitched... you can't even argue that you're singing a harmony, it's so out of tune. You've set yourself up as a performer with gigs ... but I can't help noticing that virtually all of the poetry ones are poetry slams ... which of course are not gigs at all , but competitions.(Have you ever been voted into first place by the appointed judges at any of them ?) It rather makes me think of the young man who turned up at a folk club session in Whitby this year that Doc Rowe was running. He and his guitar departed after he'd sung his one song, leaving a gig list behind as long as his arm, which was marvelled at - until it was noticed that the two days entered up for Whitby Folk Week referred to his appearances in the Folk Tent, and the Festival Tent ... which led to a deal of speculation about how "real" the rest of the entries on the gig list were ... to a great deal of laughter.... just a thought.

So, I get the feeling that you are a lost cause ...shame really, as although this can be an odd place, it can also be friendly and amusing -- but not if you're getting up the noses of the regulars in a big way ... but none so blind as those who will not see, eh?... I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

No Volgadon, there is a "huge" difference between being against Americanisation as in globalisation and having "a huge prejudice against anything American". I just said, I quite like the American sousaphone, e.g.; and, earlier, that I've enjoyed LISTENING TO some American rock, e.g.
Ruth - please read poems 74 and 75.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM

Maybe he can't tell directions, or maybe it's that he can't turn left... Oh well, at least he's still ridiculously good-looking....

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:10 PM

if you're left wing, Deeeyvid, I'm Linda Snell.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

OOOH sounds AMERICAN, run for the hills, sound the alarms!!

You have a huge prejudice against anything American, don't you?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:01 PM

Will Fly - I see your 40 years experience involves willfully flying from the folk-coop into "blues, jazz, rock'n roll, funk"...sounds American?
Snail - for what it's worth, I'm Left Wing, and the questioning of economic/capitalist immigration/emigration is a Left NOT Right Wing attitude.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

Wav, the melody is usually played in fingerpicking!!!!!

Also, I find it really rich that you exclude the violin, an instrument with quite a past, present and future in England, on the grounds of it being foreign, yet you dote on the cittern, a German instrument brought over by Italian musicos and used to play Italianate style music which was popular in France, because it once had English in the title.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

Don Firth

Monsieur Mollusk, I believe the point that Ruth is making is summed up in the adage that silence in the face of nonsense, particularly malevolent nonsense, implies agreement.

Up to a point, Don, but if you follow that to the letter, you would be involved in an awful lot of arguments. You have to do a bit of filtering. I feel that WAV is getting far more attention than he deserves. The man is ridiculous and the appropriate response is ridicule. Logical argument is wasted on him.

There are genuine threats to the UK folk scene from the far right and I have done my bit to speak out against them. I took it on myself to let everyone who needed to know that a chap active on the local folk scene was a spokesman for this organisation http://www.steadfasttrust.org.uk/. We don't see a lot of him these days and I keep an eye out for him.

As far as I can tell, WAV only represents himself and having so many worthwhile people arguing with him probably makes him feel important.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM

D. Franks has been told quite reasonably and sensibly, by several experienced, distinguished and intelligent people on this forum that he is totally out of his depth. Many of the musicians I've played with, professionally and semi-professionally for over 40 years in genres such as folk, blues, jazz, rock'n roll, funk, etc., are not quite as reasonable and sensible as this, and would have simply told him to f*ck *ff a long time ago. But he just can't take the hint, can he?

The problem, IMHO, is that all the activity generated by every thread he starts ("5,000 Morris Dancers" etc.) is actually giving an ignorant nonentity a kind of prominence which he doesn't deserve. All he has to do is never answer a question directly, repeat the same trite phrases, and make references to his puerile website - and there you go: another half-dozen posts... quite subtle in a warped kind of way, though I'm sure he hadn't realised it.

I do agree it's important to challenge this mindless xenophobic crap and not let it dribble on, but perhaps the best way now is simply to ignore this and any other threads Franks posts, so that he will fade away, unnoticed in the overall Mudcat traffic.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

"Spoons for God's sake????!!!! Thanks a frigging bunch. Ignorant, ignorant man. Rubbish indeed."... The World Spoons Championship was held, in ENGLAND, at the Trimdon MUSIC Festival, this year Eliza - see http://www.countydurhamarts.org.uk/trimdon.html

Re. Don's second last post: an English style for guitar (and preferably English cittern) would be including the melody in one's picking, as Eliza's dad, e.g., does very well, as Vogadon hinted at above.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

WAV, if you want to persuade us you're not a racist, you'll have to address what we're actually saying. We all know you "love the world being multicultural". Please absorb this information: it is perfectly possible to "love the world being multicultural" and be a racist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

Hi WAV
You've pissed off Eliza Carthy now.....Makes you happy???
Go away, and try to find a life.
(Hint. It's under a stone somewhere)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

Eliza.
Thank you.
You, me, and hundreds of other people have spent all our lives fighting this folkist crap.
Hope you are well...Hopefully see you soon.
(Co-incidentally, Have just purchased your new waxing this very afternoon.
After I've concocted a lovely meal, I propose to sit back, and enjoy the jobbie!!....Nice photos...You scrub up well!!)
Much Love Ralphie xx

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:50 PM

Monsieur Mollusk, I believe the point that Ruth is making is summed up in the adage that silence in the face of nonsense, particularly malevolent nonsense, implies agreement. Someone should speak out in opposition, even if there is no hope that the author of the nonsense will be persuaded to change his thinking.

And I most definitely agree with GUEST, jim, that WAV is in way over his head when, with his four years of acquaintance with folk music, he is arrogant enough to try to lecture people who have spent their entire lives deeply involved in folk music as a profession and a serious study, some of whom are knowledgeable and talented performers who have been entertaining and educating audiences for many decades.

WAV is rather like a very green cabin boy on his first sea voyage who, having read a few Horatio Hornblower novels and rowed a small skiff on a pond, acts toward a thoroughly experienced crew of crusty old sea-dogs as if he were the bloody captain.

So what's the point of speaking out against what he says? Well, among other things, suppose some neophyte logs into Mudcat and reads some of WAV's misinformation and there is no one there to say, "That's wrong!" The neophyte may assume, since everyone else seems to agree (with their silence), that WAV knows what he's talking about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM

if you do keep up-to-date somehow, Snail

What? You mean actually read your doggerel? AAAAARRRRRRGH!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Wav, you love the world being sorted into neat, tidy little boxes labelled French Culture, Russian Culture, Indian Culture, and so on. Woe be us if they were ever to mix, let along touch ENGLISH culture.

Wav, you havce done nothing whatsoever with anthropology. You only covered the basics, the general idea. You keep belitlling research for a masters, really a shame that you never did any, because you might have learned how to study an issue IN DEPTH.

Wav, I've been listening to folk songs since the age of three. Twenty one years later I am still learning, and I am sure that there are those here who would say the same even after 50 years.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Here I go again, because I can't help myself...eyup j(i)m...you too eh...
David, I've spent twenty years in the research and promotion of English traditional music, and one of the things I have always had to contend with, in frustration and fury, is peoples' assertions that anyone interested in such things could only be a weirdo and/or a borderline racist/nationalist.
There have often been very good discussions on this messageboard about English traditional music despite the fact that it was not set up as a folky board, and I have often learned a lot just by lurking.
Not any more. You have hijacked this subject here and made it a laughing stock once again. Spoons for God's sake????!!!! Thanks a frigging bunch. Ignorant, ignorant man. Rubbish indeed.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

"and I have to echo Ralphie in being surprised at the use of the term E Trad - never seen it used by anyone else ever before" (Surreysinger)...so, maybe my 4 years has been relatively intense, having eventually found folk music following a major in anthroplogy...could it be that I was indeed trained in what to look for? I was also fortunate to quickly come across a tape called "Voices", which had several good unaccompanied E trads (English traditional songs) on it.
But which him is "Jim", nor how much can a koala bear, I know not, frankly..?
"And yes, just in case it wasn't clear to you one of the people you've been having a go at IS the newly appointed Artistic Director of the Sidmouth Folk Week. And most of us are well aware of that, whether she chooses to use her given name, or her Mudcat name...Oh well, despite the hour back to practice on the duet,Monarch /King of the tinas ... possibly with both hands ... maybe just the left....definitely not in an English manner ... might confuse myself..."...it's all in great hands then!
"the only reason I do is because of the racism" (Ruth)...false and defamatory, again - I love the world being multicultural; you hate anyone questioning immigration.
"Somehow, Ruth, I don't think you're going to change WAVs mind about anything and he doesn't seem to be gathering much support." (The Snail)...yes my views are still radical but, if you do keep up-to-date somehow, Snail, you'd know that things have moved at least a tad more my way just lately.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:50 AM

Somehow, Ruth, I don't think you're going to change WAVs mind about anything and he doesn't seem to be gathering much support.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:57 AM

If it's the Jim I think it is, can I congratulate you on the Adam Ant song? It even won over my folk-averse partner... Now there's a man who was an English institution! (Adam, not Mrs Cringe).

Ridicule is nothing to be scared of... probably quite pertinent to this thread.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Snail, the only reason I do is because of the racism, which he hitches wholesale to the cart of English traditions, before peddling his wares to anyone who will take them (or be too polite to say no...)

it's important that people who see his bizarre polemics posted here, there and everywhere know that they do NOT represent the views of the majority of the English folk fraternity.

I'm not English, of course.

Anyway, everyone takes coffee breaks! :)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

Hmm ... I thought that was a mix of VOLtarol and MoGADON ... a painkiller that puts you to sleep ... is that relevant to this thread ?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

You are well out of your depth here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music.

You'd think they had better things to do with their time than argue the toss with WAV.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM

Maybe Wav would have included the banjo on his list if it were known as the English banjo, or the Anjo.


Volgadon, who may or may not be maligning two rivers, as well as anyone called Don.....

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

"here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music."

And some of them, of course, fit into more than one of those categories.

"go on... Work out which Jim"
Now I'm curious .... and speculating ... do any of us get a Mars bar if we get it right ... chuckle.

As to using real names or nicknames ... that's a matter of choice WAV, David or whatever you choose to be. Some of us, like Ralphie or Don choose to use their real names. Others like to use nicknames .. I only really use one because that's how I started on here some years ago ... but I think you'll find that over time most of us who are regulars have got to know who everybody else is in the real world, so even if we're posting under nickname/pseudonym/whatever you wish to call it, it isn't actually an anonymous posting as such. As to considering that Ruth could be maligning a REAL person, please don't tell me that you're one of those people who would have sent a wreath to the studios when one of the characters in the radio series died ... you wouldn't would you ????
(I personally am concerned in case any real Granma McAlatias are feeling maligned, or come to that any Koala Subverters....)

I see from your Myspace and website that you have been interested in traditional music since 2004(and I have to echo Ralphie in being surprised at the use of the term E Trad - never seen it used by anyone else ever before ... and hope never to see it again, as we already have too many problems in the use of definitions). Interest and enthusiasm are laudable, but with so little experience, and faced with a veritable army of people on here who know so much more than you, you really have been and are digging a very very large hole for yourself. As Jim said, you really should go and FIND OUT MORE before arguing the toss with people who in many cases have vast experience and knowledge at their fingertips.

And yes, just in case it wasn't clear to you one of the people you've been having a go at IS the newly appointed Artistic Director of the Sidmouth Folk Week. And most of us are well aware of that, whether she chooses to use her given name, or her Mudcat name...

Oh well, despite the hour back to practice on the duet,Monarch /King of the tinas ... possibly with both hands ... maybe just the left....definitely not in an English manner ... might confuse myself...

Surreysinger
(aka Irene Shettle who is hopefully not maligning any other Surreysingers ...)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,jm
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

I think you'll find a lot of people on this thread are more well known than you suspect David... You are well out of your depth here amongst several members of the efdss national council, at least one major festival artistic director, at least one noted collector, many professional performers including a very big name indeed, and other posters who have spent entire lifetimes working at the coalface of traditional music. And that's just the people I know...

Listen to us all - everyone here has more knowledge about this than you and they (mostly) being polite and patient in the face of your refusal to listen. As Eliza suggested, learn more - wikipedia and "a programme you saw once" are not accurate sources, just as "pottages and lawn tennis" doesn't count as participating in English culture. Your pronouncements are mostly hilarious if not for the fact that there's so much conviction behind them. Go out and get involved - not lecture, or decide how things should be done based on the fact you'd prefer the world to nice a neat and tidy, or decide you already know enough from a single summers travelling to last a lifetime - but FIND OUT MORE.

Jim (go on... Work out which Jim...)