BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 03:23 PM

ho ho!

I once introduced (to continue the thread creep) another of the residents at a folk club by saying, "and now someone who needs no introduction from me." ...and sat down.
;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:44 PM

No, don't be quiet. You have wit, verve and a sense of humour, to say nothing of

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:41 PM

Slight thread creep here?

Think I'd better shut up!

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:40 PM

The daring young sailor who's on the trapeze
He falls in the sea with the greatest of ease
He keeps the boat upright, his helmsman is pleased
And his boat goes sailing a-way.

You can write the verses.

S

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:36 PM

So, I was the man on the flying trapeze, who sailed through the air with the greatest of ease. Gotcha, and thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:27 PM

This 'five-o' was a large high performance dinghy and the wire you were hanging on is called a trapeze. You were holding your side of the boat down while the pressure of the wind in the sails was trying to blow it over. A small part of the force on the sails was making the boat go forwards and the rest was what you were counteracting.

You and either Bob or Richard were the crew and whoever was steering was the helmsman. (NOT helmsperson!)

Next question, please.

S

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 02:09 PM

DON'T GO AWAY. I love to hear nautical talk. Don't understand a word of it, but it sounds cool. The only sailing thingy I have ever been on was something which I think was called a 'five-oh'. Was in San Francisco Bay. I was on the trapeze (? long rope or steel wire with a thingy at the end and hanging out level to the water with my feet on the rim of the boat). Was somthing to do with 'catching more wind'. I had no idea what the hell I was doing. I ended up in the water and all I could think about was fish with triangular fins. That was my sailing adventure. Went with two buddies named Bob and Richard. Oh, yeah, I was referred to as the crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 01:26 PM

I've got a grip. I pack my clothes in it.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 01:24 PM

In fact (he continued), the sort of multi-tasking women are good at is essential as skipper of a yacht - keeping tabs on progress; sail setting; navigating; avoiding the tanker bearing down on you; threading your way through a fishing fleet; keeping all the crew adequately busy, fed & watered; getting enough sleep oneself etc. - all at the same time. So I fully expect to find that many of the women who do this job are better at it than many of the men.

What I have found from my limited experience of girls and women in yachts is that their lesser physical strength can make it difficult. When it come to pulling the tiller up to counteract a broach, winching in the genoa or heaving up the hook you need power, often in a hurry. But the good skipper will take account of all his crew's strengths and weaknesses, giving everyone a task just within - or even slightly beyond - their abilities, helping them to achieve it where necessary.

Right. Nuff said. Off high horse.

Reactions, please.   Or just ignore me and maybe I'll go away.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 01:18 PM

"yacht skippers'

Yacht skipperettes. Get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 01:11 PM

Person overboard?
Jillstay?
Personrope knot?
Personacles?
Jolly Jill Tar?

What we have to remember is that these terms came into use when ONLY men did these jobs and so the distinction between Man (the species) and man (adult male member(no smutty grins, please) thereof) was irrelevant - as well as beyond the intellectual capacity of many of them. If we're going deliberately to change our language to accommodate every change in society......   well, I'm lost for words.

AND another thing, while I'm at it. Increasingly women are going to sea, which, as we know is traditionally a male-dominated world. Some of them have done bloody well. I haven't come across any female yacht skippers yet (Yachtmaster doesn't look like being replaced by yachtmistress!) but Clare (?Claire) Francis, Naomi James and Ellen McArthur are pretty well known. Here, as elsewhere in human endeavour, what is important is that we ALL have the chance to be good at it and develop out skills to the best of our ability. Sex is irrelevant.

Until it comes to heaving up the anchor. (ducks swiftly)

Steve




any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:44 PM

...and secondly,

THE BATTLE OF TRAFALGAR - Bicentennial version

Nelson: "Order the signal, Hardy."
Hardy: "Aye, aye sir."
Nelson: "Hold on, that's not what I dictated to the signal officer. What's the meaning of this?"
Hardy: "Sorry sir?"
Nelson (reading aloud): "England expects every person to do his duty, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religious persuasion or disability". "What gobbledygook is this?"
Hardy: "Admiralty policy, I'm afraid, sir. We're an equal opportunities employer now. We had the devil's own job getting 'England' past the censors, lest it be considered racist."
Nelson: "Gadzooks, Hardy. Hand me my pipe and tobacco."
Hardy: "Sorry sir. All naval vessels have been designated smoke-free working environments."
Nelson: "In that case, break open the rum ration. Let us splice the main brace to steel the men before battle."
Hardy: "The rum ration has been abolished, Admiral. Its part of the Government's policy on binge drinking."
Nelson: "Good heavens, Hardy. I suppose we'd better get on with it. Full speed ahead."
Hardy: "I think you'll find that there's a 4 knot speed limit in this stretch of water."
Nelson: "Damn it man! We are on the eve of the greatest sea battle in history. We must advance with all dispatch. Report from the crow's nest, please."
Hardy: "That won't be possible, sir."
Nelson: "What?"
Hardy: "Health and safety have closed the crow's nest, sir. No harness. And they said that rope ladder doesn't meet regulations. They won't let anyone up there until a proper scaffolding can be erected."
Nelson: "Then get me the ship's carpenter without delay, Hardy."
Hardy: "He's busy knocking up a wheelchair access to the fo'c'sle Admiral."
Nelson: "Wheelchair access? I've never heard anything so absurd."
Hardy: "Health and safety again, sir. We have to provide a barrier-free environment for the differently abled."
Nelson: "Differently abled? I've only one arm and one eye and I refuse even to hear mention of the word. I didn't rise to the rank of admiral by playing the disability card."
Hardy: "Actually, sir, you did. The Royal Navy is under-represented in the areas of visual impairment and limb deficiency."
Nelson: "Whatever next? Give me full sail. The salt spray beckons."
Hardy: "A couple of problems there too, sir. Health and safety won't let the crew up the rigging without crash helmets. And they don't want anyone breathing in too much salt - haven't you seen the adverts?"
Nelson: "I've never heard such infamy. Break out the cannon and tell the men to stand by to engage the enemy."
Hardy: "The men are a bit worried about shooting at anyone, Admiral."
Nelson: "What? This is mutiny."
Hardy: "It's not that, sir. It's just that they're afraid of being charged with murder if they actually kill anyone. There's a couple of legal aid lawyers on board, watching everyone like hawks."
Nelson: "Then how are we to sink the Frenchies and the Spanish?"
Hardy: "Actually, sir, we're not."
Nelson: "We're not?"
Hardy: "No, sir. The Frenchies and the Spanish are our European partners now. According to the Common Fisheries Policy, we shouldn't even be in this stretch of water. We could get hit with a claim for compensation."
Nelson: "But you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil."
Hardy: "I wouldn't let the ship's diversity co-coordinator hear you saying that sir. You'll be up on disciplinary."
Nelson: "You must consider every man an enemy who speaks ill of your King."
Hardy: "Not any more, sir. We must be inclusive in this multicultural age. Now put on your Kevlar vest; it's the rules."
Nelson: "Don't tell me - health and safety. Whatever happened to rum, sodomy and the lash?"
Hardy: "As I explained, sir, rum is off the menu! And there's a ban on corporal punishment."
Nelson: "What about sodomy?"
Hardy: "I believe it's to be encouraged, sir."
Nelson: "In that case ...kiss me, Hardy."

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:37 PM

Hooray for you, Steve!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:33 PM

So, like, telling someone to go gender himself doesn't really cut it, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Schantieman
Date: 23 May 05 - 12:23 PM

Two things here:

First, male and female are not genders, they're sexes. Sex is a quality possessed by most living organisms.

Masculine and feminine are genders. Gender is a quality possessed by nouns in some languages.

The confusion arises because many semi-literate people use the word 'sex' as a synonym or euphemism for 'sexual intercourse' and, having used up (!!) that word for a different meaning, need to steal the perfectly good word 'gender' from its grammatical use.

It seems to be mostly the PC brigade that do this. It does annoy me!

(Or am I being excessively pedantic?)
;-)

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Flash Company
Date: 23 May 05 - 09:53 AM

Basil Fawltey is alive and well and working in the MoD.'Whatever you do, don't mention the war!'

FC

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 05 - 09:10 PM

For those who haven't got it yet - especially ESL speakers (English as a Second Language) - it is a pun

Hol(e)ystone = Pumice

then there's

Hol(e)y Water - carbonated beverages....

Hol(e)y Spoons - strainer spoons, etc....

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 22 May 05 - 08:17 PM

More nautical PC-ness, a re-enactment except we must not mention the French. I guess they will be the 'Sacre Bleu' forces.


Trafalgar without the French
(Filed: 23/05/2005)

Plans to mark Nelson's victory at Trafalgar with a re-enactment which does not mention the French were attacked by an MP yesterday.

A "Napoleonic sea battle" will be staged off Southsea as part of the 200th anniversary celebrations of Britain's defeat of the Franco-Spanish fleet in 1805. But the spectacular son et lumiere show will feature just a "Red Fleet" and a "Blue Fleet".

Mike Hancock, the Lib Dem MP for Portsmouth South, said the decision to protect the feelings of French guests, by not making it explicit which nations fought the battle in which Admiral Lord Nelson was killed, was "absolute twaddle".

He added: "If we are going to re-enact it we should do it properly. I am sure the French do not pull any punches when they celebrate Napoleon's victories."

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "This is a piece of theatre and not supposed to be historically accurate."

The re-enactment will be on June 28 following an international fleet review attended by the Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 22 May 05 - 09:25 AM

The holystone was usually fixed in a metal frame attached to a pole like a broomstick. I've spent many a happy hour pushing one, long ago! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 22 May 05 - 01:34 AM

How can a submariner be "above the above"? Like, I thought you guys were below the below.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:39 PM

That was me above the above.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST,Shangahiceltic
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:38 PM

A holystone was a square of pumice or sandstone that along with a bit of sand would be used to bring up wooden decks clean and white.

The block was about the size of a bible and as cleanliness was close to Godliness....

Usually on a wooden ship this would be carried out during the latter part of the morning watch (4 - 8 a.m.) or the earlier part of the forenoon watch (8-12 midday) and origianlly it was done on hands and knees.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: frogprince
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:59 PM

Dangit, "You don't have permission...".
A pic of what, Brucie?

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 05 - 07:54 PM

Here's a pic.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: frogprince
Date: 21 May 05 - 06:37 PM

As far as serious thought here goes, I fully agree God is above and beyond human gender. But you could tell that the guy who raised the question with my old schoolmate was just yanking his chain.

Shanghai, I swabbed enough decks, (1964-1968) but I never heard of "Holystoning" one; does that actually mean scrubbing a deck with a Bible? otherwise, I really can't get whatcher gettin' at.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 21 May 05 - 05:23 PM

Human Resource Department: Implies that no other species can work in a company.

Holystoning decks would out too as this implies other books are not good enough for srcubbing decks and discriminates against other religeons.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 May 05 - 12:31 PM

Science-fiction fandom has long used the s/he non-gender specific . Pronounced Heesh. I personally prefer s/he/it which covers more eventualities. And leaves no doubt about how to pronounce it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:26 AM

"Call all hands to person the capstan...."

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 21 May 05 - 11:05 AM

Since God, as a being, must be far beyond human understanding, any statement about God is merely metaphorical. That would apply to God's presumed "gender," "drives," etc.

God's "intelligence," for example, is so far beyond human intelligence as to be only metaphorically related.

Or so it would seem to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 21 May 05 - 10:30 AM

As for God being male or female, God of course encompasses both and does not need to be male and/or female in the sense of reproduction. Dennis Prager suggested it is convenient to think of God the 'father' because of the punitive aspect inherent in God's nature. Nevertheless, many Reform Jewish prayerbooks have been modified to remove English translations' usage of male referents. Hebrew prayers have been modified so that when the Hebrew 'fathers' Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are mentioned, so are Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, and Rachel. They don't scan so well, but there they are.

As to language, I've been grateful to English for dispensing with assigning a sex to nouns. It always seemed ridiculous that a chair or table should be male or female, or various body parts. I've not understood how or why this developed at an early turn, since it exists in all languages that I know of, yet English some time ago gave up the practise. I took a German course at the Boston Goethe Institute and the German instructor said that English was just like German, only two hundred years ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 20 May 05 - 08:17 PM

Referring to an earlier post Chinese is not exactly neutral. Though the pronunciation of the word for her/him is 'ta' the actual characters are different one has a radical for woman and the other a radical for man as the left part of the character. There is however a neutral character used for referring to objects and animals.

The character for safe 'an' shows a woman under a roof, while the character for a house shows a styalised pig under a roof. Male characters do not appear under roofs. However the word for rest shows a male radical sitting by a tree. There are no characters showing females sitting by trees. The PC bunch would have a fun time with those.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 05 - 07:27 PM

If sex of itself is sinful then marriage and children must also be.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: frogprince
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:53 PM

Just a few years after that, one of the old gang was on active duty while in the army reserves; he happened to spot Harry coming out of the on-base movie theater. Harry was beside himself at being caught in the sin of going to a movie. I haven't heard word one about the guy since.
Geez, how did we define the "sin nature"...? It really wasn't synonymous with "physical nature"; I guess it was just the part of our spiritual being that was inclined to do sinful stuff. My family were never fanatical enough to utter any of that stuff when I was growing up, so I guess I was able to let some of it slide off when I encountered it. Even at the institute, the faculty and administration were too normal and healthy to brand sexuality itself as sinful.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:30 PM

What eventually happened with/to Harry, frogprince?

On the other hand, brought up as I was, I understand what Harry may have been alluding to. Rather than a 'sin drive', I've heard it taught as a 'carnal' element, i.e. the physical body.

If God is out there somewhere, s/he/it must have a good laugh now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:26 PM

pretty weak-willed was harry, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: frogprince
Date: 20 May 05 - 02:20 PM

Ebbie, you brought me back to one of those moments, in another lifetime, when I was a Bible institute student. Three of us (two male beings and one female being) were assigned to do door-to-door visitation. The other male person, "Harry" had a take on "Christianity" that was too much for even a lot of us in that context. One afternoon we got in a discussion with a sarcastic gadfly who asked, "If God is a He, does He have a sex drive?" Without blinking an eye, Harry replied, "No, because the sex drive is part of the sin nature".
Not to say Harry was a nutcase, but one of my friends commented one day because Harry kept a towel over the mirror on his dresser. Harry explained that he didn't want to see himself, as that would distract him from visualizing Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:33 PM

And yesterday in Alabama a man was arrested for transporting trained seals over the State line for immoral porpoises.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:21 PM

The other night at music a musician friend was made speechless for a moment when I mentioned that that since God is a male I'm sure he has a penis. You could just see his mindgears turning as he visualized the graphic- he's an excellent songwriter and I hope he addresses the issue. :)

I got the image from a Mudcat thread a few weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:15 PM

Man, woman

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:11 PM

There are few writing situations that can't be handled to allow for two genders. I figure that if you know the gender, use it (the chairman/woman thing I posted above). If ya don't, the go to an all-encompassing construction.

Language can be used as a tool to keep people 'down'. We see that in things like the Bible, Koran, etc. They come from a time when women were seen foremost as property and not people. Thus, God is a male in the literature, and He is masculine. As to being PC, there are limits to that. Some words enjoy a utility because they are good words. The term 'bastard' can be used denotatively, but connotatively it has other meanings and they are quite opposite. A friend wrote to me recently and called me a rotten ol' bastard. I agreed. Someone who's not a friend calling me a rotten old bastard might would have some problems, because I really am a rotten old bastard. It is parenthetically interesting that the term bastard is not used connotatively with females.

The word awful--about 400 years ago--was complimentary. "Your hair is awful." That was meant to say that "Wow, your hair inspires awe because of its beauty". Languages change.

As to the retelling of the WC story, I have no idea if it's true or not. However, it sure sounds like something Winnie would have said/done, so even if it isn't true, it's OK.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:11 PM

take it bake further - the "bond" portion means "dwells"

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 May 05 - 01:07 PM

nearly: house + bond

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:57 PM

probably because the derivation is "man" = person in Olde English from the sanskit manu;

and "woman" from the specific phrase meaning "female person"

BTW - do you know the original meaning of "husband" is "dweller in the house"?

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:54 PM

I used humankind instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 May 05 - 12:47 PM

I have contended for a long time that MAN=MANKIND should itself be changed to WOMANKIND. The reason is that the word 'man' is found in the word 'woman' but NOT vice versa. Nothing to do with political correctness, only logical accuracy.

Then when one is speaking of an individual man, one just drops the two letters indicating the species.

For some reason, men tend to resist that notion. Why is that, do you suppose?

;)

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 May 05 - 11:23 AM

As to "nitty-gritty", Michael Quinion, the language guru, issues a weekly language e-mail with comments about various language matters, called World-Wide Words. Part of it is a Q and A section, and a reader asked about this nitty-gritty rumor.

He points out (along with other observations) that the expression is only found from about 1950, and it seems inconceivable that the expression could have been around so long and only surface in print in 1950.

To read his fuller coverage, here's the link to his website, where his comments are archived: Michael Quinion archive on nitty-gritty

If you are an English-language nut, like me, you could do worse than to sign up for his free weekly newsletter. You can do that at his site.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 May 05 - 11:00 AM

We can always become Chinese and make everything gender neutral but why? Vive la difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:11 AM

Warren Farrell wrote "The Liberated Man" back in the '70s; in it he suggests the words "te" "tes" and "tir" to replace masculine pronouns in those situations where the referrant is non-gender-specific.

Oh my. We do seem to make thing horribly complicated for ourselves, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Nautical PCness...well blow me down...
From: robomatic
Date: 20 May 05 - 09:11 AM

brucie wrote:
Churchill was visiting the American south. The hostess inquired as to which part of the chicken he would prefer. Churchill replied, "The breast." He was set straight by her on the spot. He was informed that in polite company one said "White meat." Anyway, weeks later when he had returned to England, he sent her a thank you card and enclosed was a brooch. With it was the request that she pin it to her white meat. Such a language we have.

Great story about the great WC. Wonder if it's true. Anyhow it certainly is a great language where we can discuss it and take joy in nuance.

What I've found is that everyone including me, decries PC-ness, yet has her or his own pet grievances. I've avoided using the words 'jew' and 'welsh' as verbs. I've been looking for something to replace 'indian giver' because it crops up in a song I love, so I need something that retains the meaning and scans the same, i.e. has the same count of syllables.

On the original thread topic, with terms like 'Bristol-fashion' and 'nitty gritty' we have the suggestion that they have an uncomfortable origin, yet the words have no current reference to that origin, so I would argue that there is no bad connotation to their current use. English evolves.

A couple of years ago someone in local government had to apologize for the use of the word "niggardly" in racially mixed company. There were several takes on this, the first take that this was a rash PC attack because in fact the word has no racial origians nor implications. But in thinking it over later I decided that the word had homonymic implications and someone of a Machiavellian pursuasion could utilize it for nefarious purposes, as indeed any word can be so used, eh nudge nudge? Does your wife go?