BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 10:19 AM

Yes, atheism is supported by no logic whatsoever. In contrast to agnosticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 10:07 AM

? Atheism is stupid? Um, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM

"point scoring"? No, just waiting for a logical argument.   Seems like it will be a long time yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 09:20 AM

The nurse has been supported by legal argument (see Richard), by the Trust, and by public opinion. It seems to be only a few amazingly obstinate Mudcat posters who criticize her in the least. And no reasonable argument has been put forward as to how she did anything wrong.    Absurdly specious whining about "diversity", "dignity" and "violation"--supported by nothing except the paranoia of a few posters, and that seems to be about it.

Now how long will certain posters insist on beating this poor dead animal, mouldering in the ground for weeks now?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 09:17 AM

Ron - I still don't understand. seems like your more into point scoring than discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 09:10 AM

"somehow atheism is evil".   Nice try. No, atheism is stupid.   Some atheists--not all-- have been evil. Hope you can understand the difference.

Agnosticism makes sense for anybody who insists on empirical evidence. Atheism makes no sense.

And for anybody who complains about Hitler being pulled into this, you may direct your whining to the person who claimed that Hitler was a Christian and to the others who claimed that Christianity had been on balance bad for the world. Atheism has been far worse for the world, as I've explained more than once--and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:51 AM

Right your are in your confrontation of the bogus "Hitler" argument. No one who truly believes in the Christian God would do such a thing or even conceive of it. My criticism was not aimed at you. I think it was Sinister who brought it up. Absolutely absurd.

My only mention of Hitler was to express concern over Ron's specialist knowledge of same. Otherwise, Hitler has fuck all to do with it - a smokescreen, as Spleen rightly points out, thrown up by those wishing to obfuscate the original point by resorting to a quantitative moral showdown between Christianity & Atheism. There is, after all, only one type of human in the world - and one doubts that any sort of analysis or dissection would reveal otherwise.

This thread is not about bashing Evangelical Christians (however satisfying that might ultimately be) rather about people doing what they're meant to be doing professionally without exploiting the situation for their personal ends, whatever those ends might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM

I don't understand, Ron. Are you saying that because Hitler, Mao and Stalin were allegedly atheists, somehow atheism is evil? Are you saying they perpetuated their crimes in the name of atheism? Are you saying that all atheists are in some way culpable for their crimes? And capable of repeating them or wishing to do so? Personally I prefer to describe myself as a humanist rather than an atheist, emphasising a positive rather than a negative.

And what does any of this have to do with the (formerly) suspended nurse? To me, your arguments are all about putting up smokescreens, and I suspect are based on the premise that Christians should be exempt from normal rules of conduct. This is not an atheist vs religionist debate. Plenty of religionists (including people working as hospital chaplains) disagreed with her actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 14 Mar 09 - 12:12 AM

Right your are in your confrontation of the bogus "Hitler" argument. No one who truly believes in the Christian God would do such a thing or even conceive of it. My criticism was not aimed at you. I think it was Sinister who brought it up. Absolutely absurd.

If you are to send your undercooked steak back to the chef would you rather the chef be someone who's morals and ethics answer only to himself or to one who subscribes to a higher power which is based on returning kindness for evil and loving their neighbor as their self? I think that would be somewhat analogous to the paranoia about having a nurse's offer of pray rejected by a "pissed off" patient. Good points Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:02 PM

So sorry if you don't like Hitler being brought up. He was in fact an atheist--which is the point at issue re: Hitler. And that only came up when a certain brilliant poster was trying to allege he was Christian.   Which was not true after about age 7.   Unless the poster perhaps thinks we should believe everything Hitler said in speeches. Rather than what he said in private--and especially, what he did.

And Hitler first came up when other posters were trying to make the absurd allegation that Christians and Christianity had been on balance negative for the world. Totally unproven. Whereas it is painfully obvious that atheism has been on balance very negative for the world. As I have explained, giving examples and reasons.   Yet again, Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all atheists--and responsible for more deaths than anybody else in history.

And current prominent atheists--like the current ruler of North Korea--do not help the cause.

But I can certainly understand why "free-thinkers" would rather not grapple with this.



Now back to the nurse.

One poster is concerned that if he were to reject a prayer, the care a Christian nurse would give him would be lower quality than if he were to accept the prayer. Perhaps he's projecting his own attitude if he were to be caregiver to a fundamentalist Christian.   If he would behave this way as caregiver, that's despicable conduct and he should resign his position forthwith.

If he suspects a Christian nurse would be likely to behave this way, he is doing nothing but showing , yet again, his own amply obvious paranoia--unsurprisingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 06:22 PM

Yes, but it's hard to come up with atheist bad guys if you don't count Hitler... (not that I don't agree with you!)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 05:04 PM

OK John P, in the interest of debate, you are guilty of attributing what may be true of the part to the whole, ie. That because some percentage do it, all do it. Does this sound familiar? It's the same argument racists use against blacks: "They're all no good! Look how many are in prison." That's one.

A second is an unsubstantiated assertion of facts not in evidence. To wit: "Given how many "take no prisoners" Christians there are running around, how do we know if a total stranger is one of those or not? How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?" Says you?

As for Hitler, there I will have to agree with you. It is simply amazing how many times the spectre of Hitler is raised in these threads, which almost always (IMO) throws the discourse off. As with my hyperbole above, it is the extreme case in point, attempting to prove one's position.   Sometimes it IS appropriate to extend an illogical argument to its ultimate conclusion to demonstrate the fallacy, however, let's be a little more creative and try to leave Hitler out of the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:21 PM

Thanks, John P.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:11 PM

"How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?"

I think that IF I were an atheist and found myself in this situation that I would refuse as nicely as possible and then ask point blank if my refusal was going to make a difference in the quality of care I was about to receive. Put the offender on the spot. If I thought there was going to be a problem after that I would take it up with the proper authority/manager/superior.

But I might add that in my opinion a Christian that would change their quality of care based on either answer should not be considered any Christian at all. It's a complete reversal of the teachings that they profess to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:38 PM

Trying again, for those who don't know how to carry on a debate:

One of the points I've made a couple of times now that none of you have bothered to (or been able to?) respond to is the experience that many non-Christians have had of being discriminated against for their lack of Christianity. Given how many "take no prisoners" Christians there are running around, how do we know if a total stranger is one of those or not? How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?

PLEASE stop talking about Hitler. That's a stupid line of conversation and a waste of everybody's time. And please stop making this into an atheist vs. Christian question. That's making it so broad that no real discussion is possible, and is assuming that anyone actually feels like there is some sort of war going on between the two groups.

It's about medical ethics and the appropriateness of conducting religious activities in any and all situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:17 PM

The nurse was a home visitor, so that thickens it up a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM

ummm... hospitals HAVE in-house chaplains the patient can ask for. I don't think they have comparable sex services. The metaphor is a bit thin.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:11 PM

I'm sorry, I'll say that again:

The situation is simple enough. In any situation an offer of prayer is entirely anomalous to sensible human communication. If that communication is between a nurse and her patient it becomes an abuse of a trusting relationship founded, essentially, on the vulnerability of a human being and the duty of the nurse, which is simply to do her job. The issue here is that no-one, least of all a vulnerable patient, should ever have to be put in the position of having to refuse such an offer in the first place. Hence, the offer is a violation both of trust and common decency.

It would be like the nurse offering the patient oral-sex. Of course, all she has do is to say no - so where's the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 06:12 AM

except for tender psyches like that of our beloved "free-thinker" Torquemada who has just told us--yet again-- that the very act of offering a prayer is an attack.

The situation is simple enough. In any situation an offer of prayer is entirely anomalous to sensible human communication. If that communication is between a nurse and her patient it becomes an abuse of a trust relationship founded, essentially on the vulnerability of a human being and the duty of the nurse to do her job. The issue is that no-one, least of all a vulnerable patient, should ever have to put in the position of having to refuse such an offer in the first place. Hence, the offer is a violation both of trust and common decency.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:36 AM

Of course, Slag. Just don't let it happen again. :)

**************************8

I think we're making far more of this subject than called for.

A couple of thoughts:

If I truly am of the opinion that there is no 'other side' and there is no god, personal or not, but there are other people who are diametrically opposed to those ideas, surely I can just smile indulgenly to myself and reflect on the superstition that is still prevalent in our society? If, as I say, I am fully convinced they are wrong? Surely I needn't make a big deal of it?

On the other hand, if I believe there is a god, (personal or not) and that there definitely is an 'other side' but there are other people who are diametrically opposed to those notions, surely they are not harming me? Surely I needn't make a big deal of it?

So, if a person asks if they can say a prayer for me, if I am a believer I would welcme it. As a spiritual person I might welcome the 'good energy' emanating. As an agnostic or atheist, I think my proper role would be to let it go.

When a person has said to me: "I'll put in a good word for you to the man upstairs!" I always grin and say, "Couldn't hurt!"

On the other hand, when a person asks if I would like them to pray WITH me, I always beg off. I am not comfortable with it. It strikes me as invasive.

In my family when I was little we always had silent prayer but my grandfather read prayers from a prayer book. I always listened because I never understood how someone could put words in someone else's mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:39 AM

Ouch! OK Ebbie, you got me again! That wasn't really hyperbole that time, I edged over into sarcasm. Methinks you were being a bit obtuse??? No?? No harm intended. Will you forgive me?

My question for John P: So how are you supposed to know who is so sensitive about anything religious if you don't ask?? Hmm? You might try wearing a sign or a tattoo in your forehead that says "Don't talk to me about religion!" If you did that I would never bring up the subject to you. How do you know anything about somebody unless you broach the subject? Being thin skinned and intolerant is taking offense at the outset! I have to assume that is what you are then, thin skinned and intolerant? Is that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 10:21 PM

And "the harm" has been lopsidedly done by atheists---Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, to start with. As I noted earlier, probably one of the main reasons this is so is that with atheism, it's much easier to have a personality cult and a God-substitute--who by definition makes no mistakes. So it is impossible to rein in bad ideas of this God-substitute. Similar to the "good old days" of the divine right of kings.

It is also interesting that virtually all scientists and others who depend on empirical evidence have not been atheists. Agnostics, yes--and that is eminently sensible. But not atheists--including Darwin and Einstein, for instance.   It seems fairly evident that anybody who thinks clearly may well be an agnostic--but not likely an atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 09:52 PM

You're absolutely right, Barry, it's an attack only if they do not take no for an answer. Here the nurse did take no for an answer.

So it's not an attack--except for tender psyches like that of our beloved "free-thinker" Torquemada who has just told us--yet again-- that the very act of offering a prayer is an attack.   And if he is in the position of being an ailing Mudcatter, and offered a prayer, he can certainly snarl: "Take your superstition and shove it" or whatever similarly subtle sentiment he feels appropriate at the time.   Of course he will still be in terribly grave danger that she may pray for him secretly once she leaves him.   And I fervently hope that doesn't cause him more than a few years of lost sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM

The trick is, those that are motivated *to do good* by the so-called Christian ethic *would be so motivated if there were no Christianity*, since what they are are basically decent people.

In contrast, those motivated to do evil need an excuse, which religious texts, and prophets, offer in plenty. Were those texts non-existent and prophets found silly, the basically nasty would have to find another excuse.

It's the harm, people. It's the harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Neil D
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:49 PM

Peace,
   Of course you did the right thing. Providing whatever comfort you can to someone who may be dying is always right and a belief system that would prevent that is wrong. Good on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:18 PM

"You obviously know more about the inner workings of the Nazi mind than I do" Slag

Oh? Does that qualify as an "unhealthy interest"?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:55 PM

Make that Gregg...Here's Masaru Emoto, Author, "The Hidden Messages in Water..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4nK6W7FoFk&feature=related
BR

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:28 PM

Gegg Braden - The Science of Miracles(5/7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-5pWbzmx2g&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=AA86D8952BBEAD8E&index=4
Peace: I think that whenever one human being has kind intentions & respect for another human being, he sometimes suspends his personal belief, and aligns himself with a power that none of us will ever fully comprehend...You did good Bro...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 04:05 PM

Hmm, Barry Finn and Mrrzy have both posted stories about how put off -- no, pissed off -- they were by medical professionals offering religion. Slag, Keith, Ron, can you wrap your heads around the concept that there are situations where the offer of religion is inappropriate, and even harmful? The degree of the offer isn't really important. When a non-Christian or a non-religious person is confronted and surprised by an out-of-place offer of this nature during a time of great stress, it indicates a lack of quality patient care. You have said repeatedly that it wouldn't bother you. I accept that. Please try to look at the situation from a point of view other than your own.

One of the points I've made a couple of times now that none of you have bothered to (or been able to?) respond to is the experience that many non-Christians have had of being discriminated against for their lack of Christianity. Given how many "take no prisoners" Christians there are running around, how do we know if a total stranger is one of those or not? How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?

Peace, I would have done the same in your situation. I suspect that most people would. I note that you didn't make the offer; you responded with comfort for a dying person. Out of curiosity, did your EMT training include any guidelines about offering unsolicited religion to patients, or do any organizations you've worked for have policies about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:44 AM

Ron, a violation or an attack only if they did not take "no" for an answer

It is the very offer of prayer that is the violation for the reasons indicated earlier. It's a matter of being put in the embarrassing position of having to decline such bullshit in the first place. If I am infirm enough to merit a home visit by a nurse, how am I about to feel if said nurse then starts springing offers of prayer on me? It is as misplaced as it is perverse and runs contrary to all common decency; much as if said nurse was a stoner and having treated my requirements then asked if I minded if she skinned up, or, indeed, fancied a toke.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:32 AM

Must be speaking in tongues.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 04:09 AM

What language is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 03:44 AM

OK Ebbie. I'll concede. You obviously know more about the inner workings of the Nazi mind than I do. Nazi nurses need not apply.

Aggie Nostique! That's easy. You save their physical life and that's all you do at the moment. The theological reasoning? Life or death is ultimately in the hands of the Creator and where there is life, there is hope. If the person is meant to live your efforts will succeed. If not, they won't. Any decision they have made for or against God or Whatever they esteem most highly is a done deal at the time of death. I would imagine that a Christian health worker would be constantly, silently praying all the while they worked to save that person. Ultimately the spiritual matters are between an individual and God.

It is always a personal decision between an individual and God. It is a true statement in the Christian faith that no can "save" you. They can only present you with God's Word. Salvation is solely the office and the prerogative of the Absolute Sovereign. Reference I Thessalonians 2:13. Hey if God's Word doesn't speak to your needs, there is nothing I can say or do that will go beyond anything that God has already done or said. Death just finalizes the deal. Hebrews 9:27. Just as there is physical triage there is also spiritual triage.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 03:02 AM

Ron, a violation or an attack only if they did not take "no" for an answer

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:40 AM

"Come on...What motivates a person to do the work of caring for other people in their infirmities? Many ARE motivated by a Christian ethic. Others by a humanistic ethic. Still others by less obvious reasons but they are all doing what most here would term "A Good Work" No? Now Ebbie, do you really think that a heartless Nazi would be involved (voluntarily) in such a humane service?" Slag

That's a silly statement in my opinion, Slag. Within their ranks and belief system I'm sure that there were Nazis of both sexes who were not out there killing and demeaning their own kind. And so, yes. I believe there were Nazi nurses, child caregivers, doctors and surgeons, school teachers, and musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Aggie Nostic
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:18 AM

Ok.. lets just say for the sake of arguement.. [whoops !]

YOU are a qualified practising medical worker.
YOU are also a very devout Evangelical Christian.

So, just for fun, here's a quick test..

You suddenly find yourself alone with a non-believer
who has just suffered an extremely dramatic life threatening health problem.
Your professional diagnosis of this seriously ill persons condition
is that death is imminent;
barely minutes left before the patient will be lost forever.
There is however,
the remotest possibility you may be capable of reviving the patient and sustaining life
long enough for you to use your mobile to phone for an ambulance
and full emergency paramedic help.

What then will be your priority ?

To desparately attempt all within your professional training and knowledge
to prolong life for the next few minutes,
even if you consider your efforts may most likely be in vain.

Or, decide that as the patient is far too close to death anyway,
these vital minutes will be wasted on frantic attempts at resucitation
if it means you will risk failing to offer urgent prayer and eternal salvation.
So you decide to concentrate entirely on praying & trying to save the soul
of an individual who you believe will most benefit
from an eternity in Heaven than being damned to Hell???

So, the Ambulance eventually arrives to find you tending the deceased.

Now then, which would make you feel most guilty ?
Not having saved a life when there might have been a remote possibility
you could have succeded if you hadn't been praying so intently.

Or, failing to save a 'lost' soul from eternal Hell
because you wasted too much time on emergency medical procedures
when you should have instead been praying for the patients eternal salvation ?

What would a Professional Medical/Legal Inquiry Tribunal
make of this situation ?

Ok, 10 minutes to answer in no more than 250 words.
No talking, chewing gum, looking out the window, or copying
the person sat next to you ?
Starting now...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:57 PM

Offering to pray is "attacking" a patient?   There's where we part company. And it appears the majority of the UK population, though overwhelmingly not strongly Christian, also agrees that "attacking" is too strong a word--by a lot. As is "violation".

Anybody who does not want the prayer can decline it. As the woman in this case did.   And that should have been the end of it.

Mudcat is probably one of the few places it's even being discussed any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:18 PM

Come on...What motivates a person to do the work of caring for other people in their infirmities? Many ARE motivated by a Christian ethic. Others by a humanistic ethic. Still others by less obvious reasons but they are all doing what most here would term "A Good Work" No? Now Ebbie, do you really think that a heartless Nazi would be involved (voluntarily) in such a humane service? It is called "hyperbole". I was using "hyperbole". I exaggerated to emphasize the fact that an individual's motivations or political leanings do not interfere with a good work being done.

Obviously the nurse believes that she is reflecting the good she has found in her faith. It would naturally follow that she might feel like sharing what she has found to be good in her life with another human. The "New Commandment" Christ gave his followers was to "love one another, even as I have loved you." And that's the thing about love, you just want to share it. If you can fault someone for that, well, I'll pray for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:32 PM

Race is commonly visibly identifiable, but by no means always.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:09 PM

But Barry, race can't be private, really, if you go with the simple American divisions of "white" (all-European ancestry)/"black" (*any* African ancestry)/"Asian" (anyone in the Chinese-etc. realm)/"people of color" (anyone else). It's visible.
Some believers *make* their beliefs visible with their clothing, jewelry or other accessories...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 02:20 PM

It is the nurse's job & paid duty to look after the care of the paient, physically & mentally, not spiritually, that is the relm of the Chaplin who does not come to the patient & ask, may I take your temp or change your bed pan! If that were the case than you are in the wrong hospital, under the care of the wrong professionals & you need to report them & have them replaced for the better of the staff, the hospital & most of all for those who go there seeking & expecting professional, proper care on the level that's expected & excepted within the common practice of the medical profession.

I was annoyed that 1st I was asked what my religion was, I equate that to asking me my race (as long as race has nothing to do with my medical care). It's no one's business but mine.
2nd I answered the question & then had a priest by my death bed, that's a total disreguard towards how I asnwered. OK, a last minute ditch to save a soul, I can let it go & did but to have a priest ask me while I'm dying if he could shove a thermometor up my ass & take my temp????!!!! That's pretty much what this nuse did, she overstepped her bounds & she should've been let go & not taken back, she should be workin at a religious hospital where that kind of treatment is exceptable. If one wants treatment at a religious facility that's where they go! Her reinstatment gives all the other soul savers the right to attack their future patients

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:25 AM

"If a nurse had invited the patient to a Nazi meeting, AGAIN, a simple "no, thank you!" would have ended the conversation." Slag

This is a thought that I want to pursue.

I suspect that if someone - a nurse? - invited me to a Nazi meeting I would not simply say, "No, thank you!". I would, in fact, react with outrage and fury, as in "What on earth makes you think I'd be interested in Nazis? Get your supervisor in here; i want to tell her or him that I want no Nazi taking care of me."

Knowing that is how I'd feel, is that response applicable to tihs discurssion?


At the same time, I think Peace's response to the accident victim was proper, and nicely done.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:39 AM

Also: re: Hitler:   It's very simple. You could believe what Hitler said in public if he threatened you. Aside from that, if you believed anything he said, you were extremely naive--and sometimes paid with your life.

Anybody who cites anything he said in a speech as establishing that his regime was religious is extremely naive. He obviously was completely self-serving in his speeches. One of the main things he tried to do was to undermine the Center (Catholic) party, by implying--falsely--that he would look out for Catholic interests, so that party was not necessary.   I recommend to you the book "Hitler's Pope"--to see how else the Center Party was undermined.

And as I pointed out earlier, if any religious figure ever opposed him--in anything--that person or persons paid for it--and often wound up in KZ--or dead.   And many did.

Those are facts. There are lots of examples, some of which I've already given on other threads. Anything else is wishful thinking

Especially since we now have direct quotes from what he said in private.   Do you, for instance, not believe he said that National Socialism and religion could not co-exist? Yes or no?

It's the poster who against all sense insists Hitler's regime was religious who needs to do some real research. Which, believe it or not, goes beyond Google.   Though even on Google there are many quotes from Hitler's private talk indicating clearly that he was not in the least religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 08:19 AM

I'm sure everything you say about your own case is true, Barry, but there are several points regarding this specific case--and that is what we are, in theory, discussing.

Main point is that the woman in this case did not herself object as strenuously as you would have done.

She declined, and that should have been an end to it.

Secondary point is that many, probably the majority, would actually have had a positive reaction to her question. Even if they had themselves not been interested-- ( as my Jan--who sees herself as an atheist-- was not, for instance)-- they would have seen the offer as an example of human caring--and, in the words of both Kendall and Jan, positive energy. And both have stated directly:   "Any positive energy is good".

Therefore, it was reasonable for the nurse to ask the question. And to take no for an answer.   Both of which she did.

This incident should never have become an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 02:42 AM

In my only post to this I mentioned that twice I've had priests come in to ask if I wanted them to pray for me (these were 5 yrs apart) & both times I said no, asked them to leave & thanked them for their concern. I should have mentioned that these were priests in the hospital as chaplins not employees of the hospital or care givers & they were not there at the request of relations either. Had they been health professionals I would've demanded that they no longer treat me, those questions are unethical & inapproprate & I would not have felt that they had my physical health their first priority over that of my so called soul. I am not in the least bit interested in having my soul saved but I was thinking that my body was far more in need of medical care. I stated, when fisrt asked what my religion was, when I replied none, that they allowed a priest beside my death bed, twice, was IMHO a violation in the fisrt place. They weren't allowing anyone but relations or those I requested & that they allowed in a priest, I felt bad for him, for denying him his prayer for me & I was the one dying. If I had been in better health I would have cursed him & who ever let him across the threshhold.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:55 AM

Gautama Siddhartha also had a sheltered life. You might say it "warped" him a little too. Christ told his disciples "as you go into the world" not as you retreat from the world. I imagine Deborah will be in for some eye openers along the way. Isolation is a terrible thing to do to a child, regardless of the motivation. Such actions are not limited to the religious prepossessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Aggie Nostic
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:33 PM

In the light of all this..
heres an interesting Documentary...


"Deborah 13: Servant of God

Documentary about 13-year-old Deborah Drapper, who, unlike other British teens has never heard of Britney Spears or Victoria Beckham. She has been brought up in a deeply Christian family and her parents have tried to make sure she and her ten brothers and sisters have grown up protected from the sins of the outside world.

Deborah is a bright, confident girl who has big ambitions for her life and the film spends a summer with her as she ventures out in the world to see what life outside her family could be and starts putting her beliefs forward to a wider audience.
Broadcast on:BBC Three, 9:00pm Tuesday 10th March 2009
Duration: 60 minutes
Available until: 9:59pm Tuesday 17th March 2009

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00j6l77/Deborah_13_Servant_of_God/


Well, this young lady doesn't miss any oportunity to actively save lost souls,
what if she's now considering a future career in nursing ?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:40 PM

That's just it Mrrzy, we are dealing with human condition. Our hearts will lead us to do the right thing, given that we are accustomed to having a tender heart for the folks. The offer of a Chaplin is a very fine compromise and as someone above pointed out, many hospitals have chaplains on hand for this situation. I have done hospital chaplaincy work myself. When people are gravely ill or dying that is no time to enter into some contentious theological debate. You are trying to render aide and comfort in any way you can. What Peace did was a right and noble thing. Here was one human being reaching out to comfort some one in their last moments on this planet and to help them focus on the one thing that gave their life meaning. I would hope that all could see this for what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:46 PM

If they were dying right then and there, unquestionably, *I* might even pray with them. I actually do know The Our Father in English. Otherwise? Not in a medical situation. I might, however, offer them the chaplain. Would that go back across the line?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM

I am not a religious person. However, in the course of emergency response I did once 'pray' with a person who was dying. It comforted that person. The person wanted to pray so we chose the "Lord's Prayer" and went for it. I see little difference between that and applying dressings to stem blood loss or plastic taped on thee sides of a square for sucking chest wounds to ensure one-way passage of air. Two-faced on my or not, I will apologize to NO one for that. Not then, not now, not ever. The prayer ranked up there with holding the hand of someone as they die. Means of giving comfort that I would do again given similar circumstances.