Memorial Day, A Look Back

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Murph10566
Date: 30 May 02 - 05:15 PM

AMEN.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: SharonA
Date: 30 May 02 - 04:51 PM

This being the traditional Memorial Day, May 30th, the original question "how did YOU spend the first Memorial Day since 9/11/01" takes on new meaning, since there was a service held at Ground Zero in NYC today. My co-workers and I have a tiny black-and-white TV in the office, so we were able to watch the service and remember for a few moments not only those who died as victims of that terrible attack but also those who've fought and died in the war against terrorism since then. May their souls find peace.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 May 02 - 07:05 PM

Hey I figured it out! I know who the Peace Matriot is and why she is so pissy! Her last name is Smith - get it??

Peace Matriot Smith?

And Art - you have every right to your opinion - all of us do - and I believe it is due to our service to country. Whether it is in the lines as a soldier or in the lines as an activist to stop the craziness.

Love ya all,

Steve

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 02 - 06:26 PM

Same here, my dear LeeJ.

Banj, ya done did good...you know this lot..off on tangents at the drop of a hat.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:12 PM

Well Leej ol' buddy, I'm with Steve........Once again you hit a home run.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:02 PM

I was in the US Army. I served in Vietnam. Most of the people I know that did came home physically and mentally intact, and have put that all long behind them. Some didn't come back and some can't ever put it all aside. Sometimes I remember those I served with (and those I never knew) privately and sometimes it feels better to do it in the company of others.

GUEST,Peace Matriot has a right to express his/her/its opinion. I won't say that the preservation of that right is the reason for a lot of those white monuments, because I don't want to set him/her/it off again. I think that a choice NOT to remember those who served, voluntarily or not, is wierd, but then I guess I have a right to my opinion as well.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:00 PM

Lonesome EJ - how elequent! I do agree. You done good!

Steve

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 May 02 - 03:54 PM

Banjer, thanks for making us think about it, anyway. War and war casualties are pretty emotional topics for most of us, and at least this kind of discussion gives us all a chance to hash out those feelings. Its better than firing up the barbecue and just sweeping the whole reason for the holiday under the rug.

You done good, pal.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Banjer
Date: 29 May 02 - 03:48 PM

I suppose it's like any public forum, someone says 'My it sure is a beautiful day today', and some idiot will start a rant about how its about time that is is and we'd have more of them if ths or that group didn't cause pollution or some other disaster. Gets so a body can't make a normal statement or ask an innocent question but what some right or left leaner won't pickup on it and try to further their cause, not just in this forum but in a lot of places. I guess it's a sign of the times.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: 53
Date: 29 May 02 - 01:57 PM

I spent my memorial day with my family at a cookout. I sure am greatful for my loved ones cause there'll come a day when we won't have them or either thay won't have us.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 May 02 - 11:23 AM

I don't think we need a day to remember. We need a day to forget.

mg

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 May 02 - 11:12 AM

Frankly, Guest 07:50 AM, if thats how this thread 'sounds to you' I suspect your getting input into your brain thats not appearing to the rest of us here on Mudcat.....

...but thats MILD compared to what 'Peace Matriot' is suffering from.... to use their own dead forebears (IF they exist - I find it vey uncomfortable to think there is someone around who could do it) to simply TROLL here shows that they are very, very ill indeed.

No doubt I've upset some people here who dont deserve to be upset, but I'm sorry, thats just how upset I am over this.

Not sure why, but I suppose I've just picked up how I'd feel if all this had happened in response to a Thread about the UK's Remembrance Day

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 07:50 AM

First of all, this isn't just a forum strictuly for friends and supporteers of the US military. Second, you are never going to get people who don't want to honor the military to honor the military, no matter how pissed off that makes you. Third, you sound like a bunch of foaming at the mouth war mongrels. "Our side has the might which makes us right, and EVERYONE better god damn appreciate us". That's how you sound to me.

Give it a rest, will you?

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Banjer
Date: 29 May 02 - 06:14 AM

C'mon Banjer, what did you expect when you asked about a military holiday in a folk forum with as many anti-war leftists, as former military people?

I expected answers to a sincere question, not a raging debate of right or wrong. I myself am not a hawk or a dove....I would rather see solution to the world's problems be achieved diplomaticaly and amicably by both sides. But that is in a PERFECT WORLD...if it becomes necessary to defend the ideals of this great nation in which we live then so be it!

I don't enjoy at all going to the cemetery and visiting with David, Danny, Bobby, Mike or Denny, I go out of a sense of respect for them on a day set aside in their honor.

If people like Peace Matriot chooses to ignore the day, so be it. He/She is entitled to live life as they choose, after all that's what these people whose memory we commemorate fought and died for. It would seem to me that the pacifists among us owe a lot to those who gave the last great measure. It is because of their sacrifice that our freedom of choice and expression remains alive today.

There are those among us right here on this forum who declined to serve in the military when called. I have GREAT respect for them because they utilized the rights we have and paid another price, (in some cases their freedom for a while). They have the courage to stand up for what they believe is right!

Banj, I am the one who should be sorry for allowing myself to get dragged into all of this..........NO Dammit, you (nor anyone else)should be sorry at all....You, 'Spaw and others here on this forum are excercising those very rights that I am writing about! Never apologize for having an opinon, when you don't allow yourself to have an opinion and stand up for what YOU feel is right, just following like another sheep in the herd, that's when you need to apologize. You would need to apologize to the memories of the folks we honored on Memorial Day for having died in vain!

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 02 - 01:34 AM

"I do what I do on Memorial Day not to dishonor your war dead, but to honor mine." Matriot, you lie. Your intent without question was to dishonor those on the thread who remember their loss, and who hurt.

I come from a pacifistic family (they went into alternative service, not prison) and I am against war, capital punishment and the fistfight in the back alley- but I live in the real world and like it or not, the real world indulges in all of that.

That said, I choose to think for myself- and I don't bring "my family" into every point I wish to make as though they and I were joined at the hip. I'm beginning to think you have no such family at all.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:51 PM

Well, Matriot, I did go back and read the first post and when taken in its complete context (which you seem unwilling to do) it is not intended, nor would a reasonable person, take it as offensive. But so be it. But while you are quoting you forgot the part where I made it clear that I was not chastising but questioning. Perhaps my later line was uncalled for, where I compared you to those that spit at me. Really happened in the airport in San Francisco. I took my civvies and personal effects out of my duffel bag and put the bag in the trash. If that is what set you off, then accept my apologies, please.

When it comes to the rest of your arguments, take the time to read my past posts. Go to the Vietnam songs thread for a view of how I think on the Generals/Admirals. I can't stand anything that glorifies war. I am not sure why I ever posted that I was a Vet on this forum to begin with. I don't have any problem with your view of the warlords using these things to their own ends. What I do have a problem with is your fucking superior attitude towards those of us who choose to use this day to teach our children, and remind others, that a price (whether wanted or not) was paid. I personally could give a shit if you ever tip your hat to the lives that are represented on those monuments. I don't give a flying fuck if you can't look at the names and at least take a moment on this or any other day to acknowledge that each one is life cut short. I see many things in those names, not the least of which is that people I FUCKING KNEW died for a cause that they weren't even sure they supported. Your bonehead, elitist fucking attitude that they marched off and died for no good reason is a typical of those with pat answers for their own fucking misery. Some probably did march off blindly. Others, like myself, found themselves facing death wondering what for. I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO ACCEPT ANYFUCKING THING ABOUT THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, RICHARD NIXON, YOUR DAD OR MY MISERY. My point is simply that we have a day to ponder those names and reflect on why they are dead. For some that is inspirational in a positive way. For others it is inspirational in a negative way. For folks like me, it is a source of pain and determination that this thing that took these young men and women will NEVER be glorified. And it is a moment for me to say to a few of the names that I wish we could go fishing, have a beer, talk about R&R, grow old, and die when we were supposed to.

Like it or not, I sorrow for you families losses and sacrifices, and I pray that no young person will have to face it again. As we see today, my hopes are in vain. But I will honor these people by questioning, singing their songs, and challenging at every opportunity those that make the decisions. And I salute the warriors that make it OK for you to have your opinion. As I have said, we agree fiercely on most things. But the fucking know it all chip you have on your shoulder is easy to have because you've got all the answers. Tell it to the folks on the wall.

Oh.............yeah.........I forgot. Peace. I'm outta this one.

Mick

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:20 PM

The Call Up by The Clash

It's up to you not to heed the call up You must not act the way you were brought up Who knows the reason why you have grown up Who knows the plans or why they were drawn up

[Refrain] It's up to you not to heed the call up I don't wanna die It's up to you not to hear the call up I don't wanna kill For he who will die is who will kill.

Maybe I wanna see the wheatfields Over Kiev and down to the sea All the young people down the ages They gladly marched off to die Proud city fathers used to watch them Tears in their eyes There is a rose that I want to live for Although God knows I may not have met her There is a dance and I should be with her There is a town unlike any other

[Refrain]

Who gives you work and why should you do it At 55 minutes past eleven There is a rose.... [Fade out with refrain and chant "Hup, two, three, four, I love the Marine Corps..."]

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:13 PM

I stayed home with post folklife food poisoning...I think Memorial Day is by far the lesser of the two holidays, the other being November 11. I don't think the date should be changed to May 30 as it is does not stand for a particular day as far as I know, as does November 11. And who was it that implied that officers don't die or whatever in wars? They sure as hell did in my war.

mg

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:46 PM

Banj, I am the one who should be sorry for allowing myself to get dragged into all of this..........and Nathan me lad, that sounds like a truly worthy project for your gram....and you too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Amergin
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:30 PM

Banjer ddon't be sorry....

this weekend I started on a project for my gramma....it will be for christmas if I can pull it off...and I sincerely hope to....I am looking for stories about my uncle Jim (her brother) who was a sergeant in Korea...and later flew for Air America in Vietnam....he died several years ago of lung cancer...but you can still see the tears in her eyes...when she thinks of him....

One thing...my family can pretty much trace our war dead to both sides of the Civil War...and both sides of the War of Independence...

Mick...and Norton...you both have my deepest respect...don't let some wanker get to you....

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:32 PM

C'mon Banjer, what did you expect when you asked about a military holiday in a folk forum with as many anti-war leftists, as former military people?

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Banjer
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:28 PM

Sorry I asked........

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:16 PM

"Listen to David Rovics..."
Pete Seeger

From Dave Rovic's Song Lyrics website:

http://members.aol.com/drovics/buml.htm

Soldier On The Bum
David Rovics

He grew up right in this neighborhood
He was on his way to going far
He could throw a ball like no one
He was gonna be a football star

And when he had a chance to travel
And go to a far-off shore
He packed his bags and went
Away to fight the war

Chorus
And you can see him in the alley with a bottle in his hand
Ready at attention for an officer's command
He's waiting for a discharge, but it never seems to come
Used to be a soldier, now he's a soldier on the bum

He was proud to be a Navy Seal
To be part of the team
Following the dictates
Of this American dream

He threw boys out of airplanes
To combat the commie threat
Now he spends each day
Just trying to forget

Chorus

And some days when the vodka
Can't keep the visions from his thoughts
Of the horror he has seen
And the terror he has wrought
He limps up and down the sidewalk
Yells out all he has to say
But the empty storefronts do not listen
And all the people turn away

Chorus

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 06:36 PM

Ultimately, it is important that any process of memorialization confront what memorials do well, and what they don't do. National memorials traditionally have been built with dual purposes: to instruct the nation's citizens about patriotism (often using historical figures, such as war heros, both living and dead), and to honor the dead.

The tendency to teach by dictum is one the state cannot resist. Yet, by anyone's accounting nowadays, few among the citizenry actually participate in any sort of Memorial Day observance. In fact, to address this perceived affront, there has been an official movement afoot to correct our lack of patriotism on the day, which you can read all about here at the "Help Restore the Traditional Day of Observance for Memorial Day" page:

http://www.usmemorialday.org/act.html

Memorials do not teach well about history, since that communal function is superseded on individual levels by bereaved families who choose to remember those who died rather than to understand why they died. One can visit the Vietnam Veterans Memorial and the Oklahoma City National Memorial without understanding, for instance, the fraught history of the Vietnam War and the reasons why American lives were lost in Vietnam, or what aspects of American society gave rise to the right-wing ideology that bombed Oklahoma City. It is important that any communal memorializing done to mourn the individual dead not foreclose on discussions about why their lives were lost. Yet that is exactly what memorialization by dictum does.

The memorials that resonate most powerfully within a culture are those that allow those debates to continue, that don't try to contain history and memory, or censor it. Rather they create a space where memorials are generated in all their conflict.

It is no coincidence that in this post-modern era, our demands for individual memorializing within the public sphere leads us back to more ancient ways of remembering the dead. I think more and more families are choosing to do just that--remember their war dead on their terms, not the nation's, and to mourn and grieve privately, not publicly. Prior to the Civil War in the US, memorializing of the war dead was always, always a private family affair, led by war widows. In the post-Civil War era, the role of the war widows was co-opted by the male military and political leaders who wished to use the Decoration Day, and Soldiers' Memorial Days as days when they could further their own agendas and purposes by standing beside the public memorial sites, and being put on pedestals floated in Memorial Day parades. Is it any wonder so many families of the war dead never participate in such shams? We know the score, and we don't wish to have the memories of our loved ones used and abused by politicians looking to buy our votes with cheap patriotic sentiments.

In the face of absence of our war dead, especially an absence so violently and tragically wrought at the cost of so many lives, all people feel a need to create a presence of some kind to fill that painful void. I realize it is considered unAmerican, especially in the wake of 9/11, to suggest that the celebration of Memorial Day is an empty, hollow one, but for me and my family, it is.

In many of the most powerful memorials I have ever seen, such as the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park, which incorporates the skeletal ruins of a building, and many World War II memorials, such as Coventry Cathedral in England, or the preserved Nazi concentration camps--the memorials speak to history in their preservation of the ruins of destroyed structures. For the most part, these memorials use the shards of the past to convey a warning and a bitter message about the human capacity for violence.

Sadly, I see none of that in the US Memorial Day celebrations. And until I do, I and my family will remain anti-Memorial Day. I do no disgrace to the fallen war dead to take such a stance. It is because of the obscenity of the carnage of war, that I demand more of my country in this regard. I demand that we at least make some attempt, no matter how feeble, to keep a bitter message about the human capacity for violence, in the equation when we celebrate the day.

If that makes me an outcast at Mudcat, well I can live with quite comfortably with that.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 02 - 05:07 PM

Here's some interesting history about what used to be called "Decoration Day" along with some info on new bills which have been introduced, one of which would move it back to the original date of May 30th, FWIW.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 04:58 PM

US Memorial Day is a day of remembrance by dictum.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 May 02 - 04:22 PM

Thank you Leej....And Banj, I am sorry for any hijacking of this thread. It is a day to think of others and what they have meant.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:58 PM

Most of us, if we live long enough, find something worth living for. But those who see that nothing is worth dying for are to be pitied, for their beliefs don't transcend their mortal existence.

Let's keep Memorial Day as a remembrance of those who found something worth living and dying for.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:39 PM

You got me on that one Spaw, I made a leap from one context to another without bringing anyone along. Sorry about that. I also realize, after having just reread all my posts here, that I said my brother was disabled in Vietnam. It was my brother in law. I have no brothers.

Also, I've made another mistake by using the word "conscription" when I should have said "conscription and forced recruitment.

Those who are often forcibly recruited and/or conscripted are child soldiers. This page at the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers gives an overview of what I was referring to without actually referring to it! Again, I apologize for confusing matters.

http://www.child-soldiers.org

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:26 PM

I take back my apology and I am lauging my ass off at your calling me xenophobic. You know better than that. I was right, a troll is a troll, even in bitter female form.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:10 PM

You confuse debate with demonising, Matriot. Your initial post was very negative and agressive. It painted people who do observe the intent of memorial day as "War Mongerers" Given that emotion, and other human communicative signals are absent in this media, we were left to interpret your intial post from its content. Polite society and good manners are a rapidly disappearing faculty; your initial post lacked enough decency to respond to otherwise. I dont object you having a different opinion, but i do object to your moral turpitude.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 May 02 - 03:08 PM

Nobody tells them they are going to ruthlessly murder boys like themselves, or be murdered by them. That they or their buddies will rape little girls and old women, and that they will be witnesses or accomplices to such acts. Or steal war booty that belongs to the people whose homes and lives they have just ravaged. Nobody talks about the lack of conviction necessary to "follow orders" to do those things, or not to do those things and doing them anyway.

I don't know where you get your information but where I went to school on this subject I was told time and time again that I would be killing other men my own age. I never raped anyone, and no one that I know did so, I didn't steal anything, nor did anyone I know, and was an accomplice to the belief that as an American it was my job to go when my country called. In hindsight I don't really give a rat's ass whether or not I should have gone or not. I can't do squat about it now so what's the big deal? I'm sure as shit not going to get whiney about the great injustices of my choices. They are my choices and I'll live with them. Hopefully make some changes with my own kids. And be proud of whatever choices they make.

You folks make a lot of assumptions about who we "War mongers" are and you don't know shit about me. If you get sanctimonious you're gonna get a shot back. It's called human nature. What I, and most of the Veterans responding here are about, is remembering the loss. I don't do the big deals about this day. I visit a grave or two of men I knew who fell. And I REMEMBER.

Jesus Motherfucking Christ you think that I don't live with the same things your Dad did just because I joined? You think my family reacts to war any differently than yours? Well I don't believe so. I made a choice, your Dad made a choice, and I'd bet my next paycheck that he and I saw things much more alike than you will ever be able to attest to. You are operating on second-hand information. Your Dad and I knew it first hand. And the draftees I fought beside held the same beliefs that I did.

Now here - I've left you plenty of stuff to take out of context and butcher around. Same fucking thing the God Damned politicians do when they incite us to go off and do the bidding of those who elect them. You're no better than they are.

I'm not mad - I'm hurt - and if your Dad heard how you were mouthing off he'd be hurt also. I'm betting he was not an offensive man - normally neither am I. But I don't have a lot of respect for people that talk out their rears about something they really don't have a clue about. And then hide behide misinterpretations of what others, who do know, have said gleaned from experience.

My last on this one also - have a riot with it - you have something else to say to me then PM me -

Steve

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:59 PM

WEll cross posting means that we need to answer something else and frankly, I'll pass.

Matriot, I think you have stated your views and that of your family pretty well in your last post and had that one come a lot earlier, i doubt you would have received the reaction you did.

Best for the Future.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:54 PM

Pardon me if I misunderstood, but I thought from your previous posts Matriot that you were discussing your family and the United States. I have no knowledge of conscripts from other places.....I was talking about this place and then and when you say, "Spaw, I think the idea that 16 to 18 year old boys knowing what a conviction is, let alone what their own are, is pretty unrealistic. Especially when they've been brainwashed for all their brief liftetime about the glory of war and serving one's country," I'll have to take issue with you on it.

Most of us I think had a good idea what a conviction was and many felt it a strong need to fight for their country. Some waited to be drafted and others hoped they never would be. Some saw a different war and chose not to go. Now I grant you that at that age the decisions made are not always the best, but then again, I'm 53 and that's still true. However, I don't think we make bad decisions at the moment we decide. We don't intentionally say, "I think I'll make a stupid decision." In retrospect many of them are, but when we make them we do so because we believe it is the right thing to do.

And yes, as I stated above, we grew up on a diet of Pearl Harbor and Ira Hayes, but some chose for varying reasons to go against that even if it was strongly "inbred." They chose to accept the punishment of the government in some way and for some reason. No matter why, they followed a conviction. Others went to war and I think for many the conviction was certainly there. Afterwards, some may have wished for otherwise, others could justify their actions, and some were left with nothing to have any conviction with. My point here is that we were all victims and many, if not all, followed their beliefs at the time.

So for all of those who acted in their belief and for what they believed to be in the best interests of their country, I pay my respect on Memorial Day. And I also pay my respects to some who have fallen for the country in other types of warfare, even the ones who truly had no choice, like the 4 little girls in Birmingham in September or '63. But that's another story.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:39 PM

Of course conscripts and their families views are colored in a way that reflects their personal experience. What enlisted men and their families' views aren't colored by theirs also? Many conscripts feel like a victims for being conscripted, just like idealistic enlisted men hope to feel like heros for enlisting. Kurt Vonnegut had dreams of fighting the good fight, and being a good soldier for the cause of freedom too. But he, like so many vets, came away from the war with radically different views of war, and what it accomplishes.

Are they any less heroic for saying so?

My father never forbade us joining in on military celebrations and memorials, and never made any attempt to force his opinions and beliefs about military service on us kids. Of course, he didn't have to, because he only had daughters. Yet, he just never joined in with the jingoist breastbeaters howling about the rotten kids questioning US involvement in Vietnam, never preached to young people during the war about whether they should serve or not. He was never an anti-war protestor. He was simply a decent man who hated war, and refused to join in anything that he felt glorified it, especially WWII, which he claimed was the most glorified war in US history.

That was one thing he was quite clear about--his belief that the reason why WWII was the most glorified of all US wars was because it was through that war that the US became the world's most powerful military superpower. He thought the Korean and Vietnam Wars were the most reviled of US wars, because they brought us face to face with ourselves as aggressors, and with all the arrogance of our military might being abused in the name of freedom, God, country, and killing communists.

You've no right to demonize me because my way is different from yours. I do what I do on Memorial Day not to dishonor your war dead, but to honor mine. My father didn't like Memorial Day, and nor does my mother. Neither ever made a big deal out of not celebrating it, and normally, nor do I.

I guess this year is the first time I've felt like I'm being attacked for not participating in the war machine's Memorial Day festivities, so maybe 9/11 has changed people more than I've been aware of. Now that I think of it, I doubt my original post to this thread, had it been in the same thread last year, would have evoked the same responses as we've seen here today.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:24 PM

I was 16, I volunteered, I knew that if I did not fight, my world would change, and my life become worthless. I did not fight for you, or my future children; I fought for my survival and the survival of my family friends and world. Matriot, learn before its too late. We treat everyone as children until 18; but I have found more intelligence and wisdom in teenagers, than you would credit them with.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:12 PM

Spaw, I think the idea that 16 to 18 year old boys knowing what a conviction is, let alone what their own are, is pretty unrealistic. Especially when they've been brainwashed for all their brief liftetime about the glory of war and serving one's country.

Nobody tells them they are going to ruthlessly murder boys like themselves, or be murdered by them. That they or their buddies will rape little girls and old women, and that they will be witnesses or accomplices to such acts. Or steal war booty that belongs to the people whose homes and lives they have just ravaged. Nobody talks about the lack of conviction necessary to "follow orders" to do those things, or not to do those things and doing them anyway.

Again, I disagree that conscripts have a choice to serve. Nowadays, in the US at least, we are a bit more humane towards those who refuse to serve. In most places in the world today, a boy who refuses to serve is shot, usually on the spot. Most conscripts nowadays, like most conscripts historically, have not "chosen" to fight in the wars they are conscripted to fight in. And many of them are younger than sixteen.

I think posters here have a conveniently Western European/US (skewed) view of what a conscript is--you don't seem to have any understanding of the fact that most conscripts walking this earth today never make a free choice to serve. They are forced to serve at gunpoint. It wasn't so long ago that was the "choice" European conscripts faced too. Serve or be shot. Only a lucky few ever escaped conscription and survived.

This idea of "choosing" military service is very, very recent, and a luxury still for most boys growing up in war zones.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 02:10 PM

The Debt
No more old England will they see --
Those men who've died for you and me.

So lone and cold they lie; but we,
We still hve life; we still may greet
Our pleasant friends in home and street;
We still have life, are able still
To climb the turf of Bignor Hill,
To see the placid sheep go by,
To hear the sheep-dog's eager cry,
To feel the sun, to taste the rain,
To smell the Autumn's scents again
Beneath the brown and gold and red
Which old October's brush has spread,
To hear the robin in the lane,
To look upon the English sky.

So young they were, so strong and well,
Until the bitter summons fell --
Too young to die.
Yet there on foreign soil they lie,
So pitiful, with glassy eye
And limbs all rumbled anyhow:
Quite finished, now.
On every heart -- lest we forget --
Secure at home -- engrave this debt!

Too delicate is flesh to be
The shield that nations interpose
'Twixt red Ambition and his foes --
The bastion of Liberty.
So beautiful their bodies were,
Built with so exquisite a care:
So young and fit and lithe and fair.
The very flower of us were they,
The very flower, but yesterday!
Yet now so pitiful they lie,
Where love of country bade them hie
To fight this fierce Caprice -- and die.
All mangled now, where shells have burst,
And lead and steel have done their worst;
The tender tissues ploughed away,
The years' slow processes effaced:
The Mother of us all -- disgraced.

And some leave wives behind, young wives;
Already some have launched new lives:
A little daughter, little son --
For thus this blundering world goes on.
But never more will any see
The old secure felicity,
The kindness that made us glad
Before the world went mad.
They'll never hear another bird,
Another gay or loving word --
Those men who lie so cold and lone,
Far in a country not their own;
Those men who died for you and me,
That England still might sheltered be
And all our lives go on the same
(Although to live is almost shame).

E.V. Lucas

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 01:59 PM

Kat. This person learned nothing from his family, and is content to maintain a personal negative agenda regarding military history and service. Perhaps, if like Mick and I he saw the tears on the faces of veterans; and hear their conversations (seldom about war, usually about "absent friends") During memorial day services Matriot would glean a different understanding about the reticence to discuss the war. War is murder, fear and loathing, extremes of passion, destruction of beauty and belief. Concluding with a sadness and despair that never leaves the soul... Silence, innability to talk about horror, is the hallmark of the veteran. Respect them and the day, and count yourselves lucky, that such people fought and that you do not have to. Furthermore,if anyone has trouble with concscience, ask what the world would be like if Hitler and the Japanese had won the conflict...

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 May 02 - 01:49 PM

Just Fuck Viet Nam

I'm so tired of that damn war and what it did to us...to all of us...the things it took away...the things we lost....and the people, always the people, it took away or tried to ruin (and often did)........

We were a generation raised by parents who fought in WWII and who did what they believed. We were taught to do the same....what we believed. We'd grown up with Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima, Ira Hayes........Even Davy Crockett through Walt Disney said, "A man's gotta' do what he thinks is right." When VietNam came along we were asked to do what was right, but the world had changed and as we moved onto the playing board, all the sqaures which had always been black or white were varying shades of gray that kept on changing. We moved about the board as pawns in someone elses game, but we moved by the best lights we could muster at the time. These many years later, we are all in our 50's and wondering what the hell it was about. Some never came back either physically or mentally, some are living in personal hells, some have moved on after great turmoil and soul searching, some question the government that would then or now ask their young people to make the decisions we made for the reasons they gave.

For many of us it was a signal event and our lives are forever colored by what we did and what we believed. It was not WWII and the areas of doubt affected us all. Read the responses in the threads we run and you'll see some are overtly proud, some are still confused, some are in denial, some are looking for peace.................We owe it to the children we have not to let that happen again. Yet the best we can offer is the same our parents gave us and that is for the strength to have the courage of their convictions.

For those who fought and died in that war or any other, they have my respect and I honor their memory and what they did. I also honor those who came back from wars and were never able to reclaim even the slightest of their former selves. They too are the fallen.

Matriot, you say that your family was conscripts and "Conscripts go fight wars because they fear the consequences of not complying with the law, and what their government will do to them for non-compliance." I'd say that would have a telling effect on my attitude.....if not theirs. We all did what we believed and it's easier to live if we live our convictions. These many years later we can each try and reconcile our lives and knowing the choices we made were the ones we did choose helps us to understand each other a little better. I wish you and yours and the rest of the world the peace it so rightly deserves.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 01:48 PM

Actually katlaughing, you're right--I'm not a "complete stranger" to this forum, I've just never posted under this moniker before. Yet, I remain anonymous even with this moniker and all the others I've used over time, don't I? You can't connect with me, even though my presence is a familiar one, because I choose to keep it that way.

You, OTOH, choose to play the tired old Mudcat game of labelling someone who voices a dissenting opinion and isn't a familiar member or guest, a troll. So there you go again katlaughing, being predictably xenophobic. Yes, I am a familiar stranger to Mudcat. But that doesn't make me a troll, and you know it.

Why are you so afraid of someone you don't know posting a dissenting point of view? I've just shared a lot of information about my family actually, which should make my views understandable to those who are attempting to understand them. Which you clearly aren't.

You are suggesting my contribution be ignored, not because I'm an anonymous troll, but because it rocks people's boats. So be it.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 02 - 01:24 PM

Cross-posting makes me think perhaps I was wrong, if so, I apologise.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 02 - 01:14 PM

I think we've all been sucked in, again...*sigh*...this Guest, Matriot does not sound like a "complete stranger" to this Forum. Last I will post/feed this apparent troll.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 01:13 PM

My matrilineal uncle was w/the infantry attached to a tank battalion in North Africa, and was killed in the carnage known as the "Battle of the Bulge". I also had a patrilineal uncle who was one of those air force heros for a day after his plane was shot down and he was killed. The military intercepted his last letter home to my grandparents, and used it for propaganda without their permission--so the letter was splashed all over in the paper. Both men were mere cannon fodder for the war machine. No great moral sacrifice, no glory, just an utter waste of human life.

The "hero" uncle apparently received medals posthumously, and all that. But the story is told by one of my aunts that neither of my grandparents ever mentioned his name after his death. In fact, on that side of the family, my uncle's service and death in WWII was almost like a family skeleton--we rarely spoke of it, even after my grandparents were dead. I have no idea what my grandparents ever did with all the memorabilia stuff the military sent to them, as we never saw any evidence of it in their home, and my aunt never recalled seeing it either. Just a few pictures of that uncle is all that has survived in our family photos and memorabilia.

My father, also in the infantry, was a POW for 8 months. He never spoke of his war experiences, just like many other conscripts who were forced to serve. My father never expressed any desire to congregate with former soldiers, to tell war stories, or to memorialize "the fallen", including his brother the hero, to whom he was very close. He got as far away from the military as fast as he could once he got home, and never looked back--at least, not in any way he shared with family and friends.

I asked him not long before he died why he never talked about his experiences in the war. The subject came up when our daughter, working on a school "family history" project, asked him about his time in the war. He told her the basic information, ie when he was drafted, where he was stationed, the fact that he finished the war as a POW in Germany--but nothing else.

His response to my questioning was that no one should be proud of what they did in war, especially those who saw combat in the military. He also said if he knew what the US was doing "in the name of freedom" going into the draft what he did coming out, he would have chosen prison as a resister. He never tried to justify his military service as "fighting fascism" or any such thing. In fact, all I really remember strongly of that conversation with him, was his comment that what he did in WWII was "spill the blood of new innocents in the same old blood soaked dirt rich men had fought over for centuries". He never seemed ashamed of himself, just disgusted with the whole experience, and the ways it was glorified. I expect there were more than a few WWII vets who shared a lot of those same feelings as my father had about it. But we aren't allowed to hear their voices on Memorial Day. Maybe if we were, we wouldn't have to endure the folly of war anymore.

Personally, I was most deeply influenced in my coming of age years during the Vietnam War, by the writings of Kurt Vonnegut. My father is the person who first introduced me to "Slaughterhouse Five". Ironically, Vonnegut, like my matrilineal uncle who was killed there, was an infantryman at the Battle of the Bulge. He survived and was sent to Dresden.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: MMario
Date: 28 May 02 - 12:22 PM

"People like you are the ones that spit on me when I came home" If you remove the "People like" part of that sentence Norton1, what do you have?

You have not only a mis-qoute, but a mis-qoute taken out of context.

sorta like "My family could honor their dead, but we don't. We never have, and never will. "

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 May 02 - 12:11 PM

Thanks to Banjer for the reminder about what Memorial Day is... a day to remember those who fought and died in service to our country. I had a Father and two Uncles who enlisted immediately after Pearl Harbor was attacked. They thought it was the right thing to do. Through the rest of their lives they continued to think they did the right thing. What peace of mind it must give to know that you did what you believed in, no matter the pain or sacrifice involved...to feel that you played some part in defending the people you love, and in liberating millions of others from subjection, mass execution, or enslavement.

And to know that nothing and no one can take that feeling away from you, ever again.

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 12:04 PM

And here, from Big Mick's original post responding to mine, a few select quotes, to illustrate why I reacted the way I did. Now, perhaps others don't view this as a pretty preachy, judgmental response made to evoke guilt for not towing the party line, but I certainly did.

And Norton1, again I beg to differ with you. You said, "No one accused Guest,Peace Matriot of spitting on anyone." I quote directly from Big Mick's 2nd post responding to me, "People like you are the ones that spit on me when I came home"

If you remove the "People like" part of that sentence Norton1, what do you have? "you are the ones that spit on me when I came home" is what you have.

Some pretty god awful judgments from Big Mick's first post, where his blatant attempt to play the guilt card first failed with me:

"Can you not find it within you to at least use the day to mourn the loss of these young ones, and honor their sacrifice?"

"Your post, if read by parents that have lost their sons/daughters, would seem so heartless and I don't get that sense from it."

"...can you not see the disrespect you shower on the fallen?"

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:57 AM

Big Mick.. Sorry you have to put up with these snide postings on this day, because you are an honourable man. I want you to know that many years from now, my children will still honour your mates. They know the cost of freedom, and were taught to respect such sacrifice. For us it remains bittersweet duty. Until death, Salute!

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:50 AM

Katlaughing, why is this thread not the appropriate place to express my opinions? All the originator of thread asked was "what did you do for Memorial Day"? The thread was not titled "How did you honor the war dead on Memorial Day"? which I would most certainly have respected. There was no vitriol whatsoever in that post. And I am distinguishing between the nation's and the nation's military leaders, the media, the military's organizations (VFW, etc) and the grunts. It is many a conscripted grunt's perspective I share.

Maybe you need to reread Big Mick's and a few other people's response's to my original post to this thread, to understand why I came back at Big Mick the way I did, eh?

Here again, is what I first said here...nothing vitriolic here, just a strong opinion which was different from those which had preceded it, which I also acknowledged. I simply replied to the questions asked by Banjer.

"I did what I always do on Memorial Day, which is ignore the war mongerers to the best of my ability, and enjoy an extra day off.

As to the "first Memorial Day since 9/11" thing, I think it is over reach, and an obvious attempt to keep 9/11 at the top of the news cycles. Cheap and sleezy militarist sentimentalizing and sensationalizing. Memorial Day is all about propagandizing for the military. Victims of 9/11 weren't soldiers, but civilians. We aren't at war, we were victims of a terrorist attack. I make those distinctions, despite the ruling elite's attempts to blur them, and make "linkages" where they don't exist.

I'm sure my opinion won't be welcomed in this thread, seeing the posts which have come before it. But there you have it."

Subject: RE: Memorial Day, A Look Back
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 May 02 - 11:47 AM

No one accused Guest,Peace Matriot of spitting on anyone. It was analogized that this type of attitude cleared the way, made it OK, to do the actual spitting. So it's sort of like the implied "Fuck you" that was perceived. Respond to what you perceive or respond to reality. No difference.

Looks to me like I even saw an apology in there from Mick - like someone above said - this thread has moved to something other than it was originally intended. If you fell so strongly about your view post a thread to it so we can have a real free for all instead of this little sniping thing. It still doesn't mean anything.

Steve