BS: Capitalism: A Love Story

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM

45% of the posters to this thread may well be just talking out of their ass.

55% of the posters to this thread are definitely talking out of their ass.


I love your program 6!



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

There are those who have never heard of the Federal Reserve. What happened to the study of civics in school? Education is primary.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 05:58 PM

Amerigin, When I was speaking about HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES I said it was not like they were building a car or something else tangible with real value. They are skimming of 25% of the countries money to shuffle papers and decide who is to be denied the benefits they paid for, and who will get the benefits they paid for and live.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: maire-aine
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:02 PM

Saw the movie this evening. Thought it was great. Being a person who lives in the Detroit area, a city which was featured in the film, I was glad to have the story told. I will probably buy it on DVD, just for the footage of FDR's speech.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM

Another good subject for his next film would be the Federal Reserve Bank, a supposedly public institution which isn't public at all...it's a privately owned bank! Whose interests does it represent? Why, the interests of its CEOs and major shareholders, that's who. It's there to make a profit for them.

The Fed is worth doing a whole movie to expose its unsavory history and its true nature.

Michael Moore said he'd have loved to take on the Federal Reserve Bank in the present film, but that there wasn't enough time or room left to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:28 PM

The difference goes as far as rhetoric is concerned but when the Democratic Congress and Senate vote for defeating public options on insurance reform, support a failed foreign policy in Afghanistan,bail out the Wall Street tycoons, take money from well-heeled lobbyists, then Nader has to be recognized as a whistle blower. But so does Micheal Moore.

Unfortunately, the Democratic Party has sold out to Special Interests. Those on the Left sit quietly and wait for Obama to do something to correct the flaws in the System. They may be "waiting for Godot". Meanwhile Democratic politicians still take exorbitant money from corporations and lobbyists for not only insurance and big pharma but the defense contractors as well.

I think Moore's next film should be on the deterioration and the privatization of the American educational system. Americans have been "dumbed down" beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

There are a few differences between the Democrats and Republicans (the parties themselves, I mean, not the individual people in them), but they are rather akin to the differences between two turds that are all wrapped up in nice Christmas packaging with cheery decorations. One has a blue ribbon around it. The other has a red ribbon around it.

Remove the ribbons and the wrapping, and you will see that it's almost impossible to detect any difference worth mentioning.

As for going back to the same old, same old...that usually begins very soon after the excitement of election night. There is a ruling $ySStem that controls both those parties. It has no name. Its masters do not run for office and most people don't even know who they are. It holds presidential elections to make you imagine that you have a choice and to keep your attention focused on (yet) a(nother) presidential figurehead rather than on reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:13 PM

I don't like the way Moore ridiculed and put down Ralph Nader ... Nader is one of the few spokes people in the U.S. who advocates serious change to politics and the system ... he has it right when he says there is no difference between the Democrats and Republicans.

Something to watch out in regards to that ... Saturday Night Live did a skit lampooning Obama this past weekend .... maybe it's the beginning of the same old, the same old.

saturday night live

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:57 PM

He has the guts to take on the really tough and absolutely vital contemporary issues in America...and to risk the major flak that is directed at anyone who does by those who are profiting off maintaining the corrupt status quo. Good for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:22 AM

Micheal Moore is the one of the few people in the marketplace today who has the temerity to tackle honestly the social issues of the day. Some may quarrel with the term "honestly" but I don't see any one else outside of say Greenwald and Ironweed who are making any films that address the real problems of this country. You can shoot the messenger if you want to but the message remains clear.

Capitalism as we know it today does not work for the average American. The super rich control the government and reap the profits undeservingly. Wall Street has become an agent of exploitation. Tax money from the American people has been stolen.

"Some will rob you with a six gun and others with a fountain pen"...Woody, "Pretty Boy Floyd."

I found Moore's film to be too much Catholicism for my taste so I have my nit-picks too.

I think the film does a real service by tackling uncomfortable subjects such as insurance companies collecting profits on dead people, politicians being bought off by corporations and lobbyists and a general philosophical Ponzi scheme where many Americans think they have a shot at the Brass Ring and can become super tycoons. I call that the American Delusion.

Where I think Moore doesn't deliver is on the role contemporary religion plays in fostering the Delusion and its emphasis on the capitalist profit making at the expense of human needs. Moore's films were not made to make money for corporations. Leave that to O'Reilly and his ilk.

Moore's appropriate approbation of American unionism is addressed in a concise way.

Whatever you think of Moore personally if you are a thinking American you have to admit that he addresses important issues head on without fear of rejection by corporate, political, lobbying powers or those in our contemporary government who are being bought and sold.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:24 PM

It seems likely, on the basis of what Michael Moore has done before, that profits from the film will primarily be used to pay for the next film.

It seems to me that anyone who wants more money for personal use than they need to lead a comfortable life is pretty evidenty out of their mind.

The fact that there do seem to be a lot of people who are out of their mind in that way is no reason for assuming that Michael Moore is one of them. He doesn't come across as that stupid, and he clearly enjoys making films and stirring things.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: meself
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:04 PM

Okay - so if we all go out and spend our hard-earned money on his movie, he is going to donate what percentage of the take to what noble cause?

Sorry - this comes off as just another bit of crass advertising.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:30 AM

Just been sent this, by a friend...

Subject: A Great Opening Night -- Do Not Put Off Seeing "Capitalism: A Love Story" -- GO TONIGHT! All of Wall Street is Watching!


A Great Opening Night -- Do Not Put Off Seeing "Capitalism: A Love Story" -- GO TONIGHT! All of Wall Street is Watching!
Saturday, October 3rd, 2009
Friends,
Thank you, all of you, who packed the theaters across North America last night to see my new film. The movie houses were rockin'! The national movie exit poll company announced this morning that the audiences in America gave "Capitalism: A Love Story" a rare "A" rating! Wow, thank you! In most multiplexes where "Capitalism" played, it was the #1 or #2 top-grossing movie there for the evening. That is nothing short of amazing.
For those of you waiting till next week to see it, I can't say this strongly enough: Do not put off going to see "Capitalism: A Love Story." It is not just a movie. It is a referendum that is being closely watched by the CEOs of America. Let me tell you bluntly, the suits on Wall Street are closely watching to see how this movie does this weekend. So, too, are the members of Congress. If "Capitalism" has a huge opening, it will send shivers down their corporate spines, telling them loud and clear that the American people are mad as hell and are not into taking it any more. It will put all the bosses on notice that the vast Obama-voting majority has awoken from its silence and are out in full force.
But if the attendance is just "ok" or "so-so," then they will be relieved knowing that there is not a popular groundswell of opposition out there -- and then they can go about their business as usual. I'd like to send them a different message.
Treat tonight and tomorrow as if it were election day. Blow their minds on Monday morning when they show up at their executive suites, switch on CNBC or Fox Business News, and learn that America turned out in droves to participate in a raucous denunciation of Wall Street and everything it stands for. I often hear people ask, "What can I do to make my voice heard?" Your answer is at the nearest theater showing this movie. Trust me, packing these movie houses tonight and tomorrow will eff them up in an overwhelming and profound way.
Last night, there were many reports of spontaneous cheering throughout the film in nearly all the theaters. Theater managers reported difficulties in getting people to clear the theater lobby afterwards because groups of total strangers assembled to passionately discuss what they just saw. One manager wrote to me and said, "It's a good thing we carry Gummy Bears and Junior Mints at the concessions stand instead of pitchforks and torches! These crowds were ready to march over to the local Citibank and do something!" Another manager said a crowd in the lobby formed around the little Chase ATM machine next to his popcorn stand and started to "yell at it." Jeez! (Click here to see some of the cell phone photos fans have sent from various theaters around the country last night.)
Here's what I've heard the most about last night: Audiences were stunned and shocked by many of the things I reveal in the movie -- stuff that the networks have refused to show them -- even though they have the footage! They purposely withhold this news from you, the public. And because I dare to show it, some networks now refuse to license any of their footage to me. So I get my hands on it and put it in the movie anyway. I truly don't care. I'm sick and tired of the truth not being told to the American people -- and I am willing to suffer whatever the consequences come my way because I showed it to you. Fortunately we have "fair use" laws in this country that have kept my hide out of court so far. There is something so patently wrong with not being told what Wall Street and Corporate America are up to. If you go see "Capitalism" tonight, you'll see what I mean. You will alternately have your head spinning and then find yourself laughing your ass off!
Much more is riding on the success of this movie than the amount of popcorn that is sold. If we do well this weekend, the studio will expand the film to smaller towns next week. Don't put off seeing it! Click here to find out where it's playing and order your tickets now. Call some friends and make a night of it. My crew and I have put nearly two years of our lives into this and I am honored that it has been so well received. Join in on the fun of giving AIG, GM, Bank of America and all the other thieves the shellacking they deserve. And send me a photo of you and the crowd there tonight! I'll post it and personally send it to the heads of all the financial institutions and the members of Congress. They need to get a clue -- right now -- and I'd like you to help me send them that clue!
Thanks again, and I'll see you tonight at the movies!
Yours,
Michael Moore

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:43 AM

I just want to comment on something Donuel stated above about corporations....

"Its not like they are building a car."

So what are GM, Chrysler, and Ford? People who for the fun of it, decide to build cars in their garage at home?

I doubt I will see this film, and not due to political beliefs....Moore's egotistical grandstanding is tired.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:41 PM

I just returned from the theatre where the crowd laughed and grumbled out loud. There was plenty of applause at the end.
If people cried at certain scenes they did it silently.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 09:08 PM

This I have stated before and I am sorry for being repititious but capitalism in no way equates to democracy nor does socialism equate to communism. It seems that many are to dense to understand that!

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:18 PM

No, they're illegal unless you are the government or a corporation or a bank. And the banks are the absolute experts in that field.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:10 PM

LH, CarolC:

I didn't write with enough clarity. I was trying to make a point humorously but I went on too long and buried the lead:

Pyramid schemes ARE illegal, UNLESS you're the Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 08:09 PM

The opposite of Capitalism is not Communism, its Democracy.

When have you ever had any say with what Wall St. or even Goldman Sachs did with your money?

The only say you have is to put what money you have inside your drywall. Put it in a bank and every 7 or 8 years another scheme allows a bank to take some or all your money.
Its a fixed game that makes Los Vegas look like an innocent infant.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 04:24 PM

There may not be any specific federal law prohibiting pyramid schemes in the US, but there are some state laws prohibiting them, and the FTC prosecutes people engaging in pyramid schemes under other laws.

At the Commission, we bring cases against pyramid schemes under the FTC Act, which broadly prohibits "unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce."(12) That Act allows the Commission to file suit in federal court and seek a variety of equitable remedies, including injunctive relief, a freeze over the defendants' assets, a receivership over the defendants' business, and redress or restitution for consumers.

FTC Website

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 04:12 PM

Well, robomatic, if pyramid schemes are not illegal, they certainly should be, because their intention is to defraud many for the benefit of a very few.

Just imagine how great it would be to be a bank. You only have, let's say, 100 million $ in real money deposited by your depositors. Okay?

Now you make loans to a whole lot of different business outfits and to the government, and said loans total, let's say, $800 million. Banks do that. All the time. And they charge interest on all of it!

But where did the additional $700 million that they lent out come from? Why, from thin air, that's where! They created it out of absolutely nothing when they made the loans (many loans to many customers). It's a fiction, written on a balance sheet, created by a signature, and backed by no collateral.

The government did not issue that additional $700 million, they did not print the bills, they did not mint the coins, it isn't REAL. But nobody knows that, so it becomes real in its effect, and the bank created it from nothing. And they get paid interest for it. And then, for gosh sakes, where will the interest come from? Out of the sky?

What a deal. It's like having your own personal money tree.

How do you blame the government for that pyramid scheme? They didn't engineer it, they don't profit from it. The privately owned banks did it and THEY are the ones who profit from it. The only sense in which you can blame the government is this: the government never bothered to originally regulate the banks in order to PREVENT them from doing this kind of pyramid scheme.

Now what happens in the long run? The amount of money in circulation, most of it created out of thin air through banks loans, gets more and more enormous....as is the case with pryamid schemes. But the material world doesn't get more enormous. Thus the dollar becomes worth less and less in real terms, because there are more dollars to go around.

And that's where we get inflation.

Again, the government did not do this. Private banks did it. The government failed in that it did not act to prevent them from doing it, but the government is massively in debt to those same banks...with debts it realistically can never pay off.

And the banks get richer.

That is our reality. It isn't the government in control of the banks, it's the other way around.

Some small banks, of course, will go under when the false bubble bursts...and the biggest banks will buy up their assets, get a bailout from the government (meaning the taxpayers), and the whole fraudulent criminal scheme starts rolling once again.

Boom and bust. Boom and bust. Boom and bust. That is how the system is set up to work.

The only thing you or I can do in the face of it is this:

1. STAY OUT OF DEBT!
2. Ensure that we have a viable way to earn a living.
3. Save up during the good times, because bad times will come. It's cyclical, just like a sine curve.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: number 6
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 03:29 PM

Thanks stringsinger ... whew .... feels good to be back as a '6'. :)

"Unfortunately, in a country that values personalities over substance, we need people who are catalysts for social change" .... excellent point.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 02:04 PM

Pyramid schemes ARE NOT illegal.


IF you're the government, YOU'RE THE PYRAMID!


Anyhow, 60 Minutes (US Show, sorry) is supposedly gonna have an article tonight about how to trace Madoff's scheme out to address those who were impoverished, a subject which is dear to me because I'm interested in cons and also how to fix things.

It seems to me that given a pyramid scheme, there are no innocent victims in the legal sense, by which I mean an investor with or without knowledge is receiving stolen goods. Therefore, at the most, each investor should simply get their money back. No investor should make a profit off of it, because there never was a true profit.

So you go to the original documents, find out what went in, what went out, you claim everything that went out, seize the estate of the promoters, and use it all to repay the original 'ignorant' investors.

This is a redistribution of wealth to correct a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 01:43 PM

Yes but what is "capitalism" in terms of a "system"?

We are not confronted with a choice between "capitalism" or "not capitalism", because our present system is not pure capitalism anyway and it never was nor ever could be. It's a mixture of capitalism and socialism and it can't NOT be. You can't have a modern society without a number of socialist institutions in place and functioning. You can't have modern marketing and trade without a number of capitalist practices in place.

Therefore it is misleading to even label what we have AS "capitalism", because it isn't pure capitalism. Neither is it pure socialism. It's both of them in combination.

What you need is some regulatory restraint on the worse misuses of capitalism, that's all. Privately owned companies should not be allowed to behave in such a way as damages most of a society to the exclusive monetary benefit of the company. They should be restrained from committing antisocial actions in the same way any citizen is restrained from committing antisocial actions...by force of law.

Banks should not be allowed to lend out vastly more money than they really have on deposit...in REAL money. To do so is to engage in a pyramid scheme, and that's illegal. The banks have been scamming the public in that fashion for several hundred years now to enrich themselves, and the situation has gotten totally out of control, and who pays for it? The general public.

The 700 billon dollar USA bailout to the banks was a reward to the very criminals who created the situation, and the public will have to pay it off through taxes...for generations yet to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 01:23 PM

Winston Churchill (and I'm writing this without looking this up, thank you very much) supposedly said:

"Democracy is a terrible political system, except for all the others."

I think he might have said it about Capitalism as an economic system, in exactly the same manner. And maybe he did, and it's the political one I'm imagining.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Sep 09 - 12:47 PM

Corporations given personhood was a murky decision given by the case of Santa Clara vrs.
the Railroad(1800's) in which a court clerk rewrote a memo, C. Bankcroft Davis declaring this personhood which became court precedence.

A prescient account of this episode can be found in Thom Hartmann's book, "Unequal Protection". (You can Google it).

Number 6, I've promoted you again after hearing your lucid comments. My apologies to you.

No we shouldn't follow self-style pundits. But Moore is more than that. He represents a hidden groundswell of Americans who realize that something is drastically wrong with our system of government as it stands when issues and bills can be bought like commodities without the real substance of their value in helping American society.

Unfortunately, in a country that values personalities over substance, we need people who are catalysts for social change. Obama was elected as a figurehead. His campaign ideas were good ones. Whether he will emerge as the kind of president I thought he would be is still questionable.

We assumed that there was pure Communism, pure socialism, pure capitalism etc. but this is not true. Every ism of governing had other elements in it. We have had socialism in our Medicare, post office, military, public works for some time. Social Security is socialism.
European countries have found a blend between capitalism and socialism that work.
We could do the same in the States.

The thing that is holding us back is corporate greed and Moore is right about this.
There is another negative. The Christian jihad in Afghanistan today by the American military but this is another thread.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 04:01 PM

Yes, it's really the corporatocracy (and banks) which are controlling the government in the USA...by the power of money. This is the part of the picture that much of the American public just doesn't get.

Number 6 - I think the system in China amounts to this: In the sense of governmental and police and military authority at the top, it is rigidly centralized, draconian, authoritarian, and utterly ruthless. That's the inheritance of Maoist Communism. In an economic sense, however, the Chinese are tremendously effective and hardworking business people and very pragmatic, so they have naturally embraced all the most effective forms of capitalist marketing because that's the smart thing to do. They are also modernizing very rapidly and doing some very high quality stuff in their cities and their manufacturing sector.

There's absolutely no reason why you can't combine centralized Communist governmental authority with aggressive and effective capitalist marketing and trade. They are not mutually exclusionary. All it takes is the will to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: number 6
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 02:04 PM

I agree Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:47 PM

My last post was addressing the point in the post immediately following my second to last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:46 PM

Totally. They see government regulation of the corporations as being a form of tyranny. That's why we're so screwed up, and why the corporations control so much of how we live in the US (and much of the rest of the world).

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: pdq
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:46 PM

"Most people in the US don't understand Paine's words in that way." ~ CarolC

Perhaps that is correct since most of us went through the public school system where he was never even mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:42 PM

They do, Carol?    Yeesh! That is sooooo worrying!

Wake up, America!

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM

Most people in the US don't understand Paine's words in that way. They think that the corporations are the good guys who need to be defended from the government, which they see as being the bad guy who is picking on the poor defenseless corporations. That's why this country is so screwed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: number 6
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 01:32 PM

But that's just what he meant. Corporatocracy in many ways is correlated to non-communist governments .... with the exception of China ... but that system I just can't figure out.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 12:05 PM

I don't think I can agree with Thomas Paine's view on patriotism, because it leaves out the corporatocracy. We need protection from them as well, and a lot of people who are working on behalf of the corporations will hide behind those words of Paine to try to kill the government's ability to protect us from the corporations. We need government to protect us from the corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 10:48 AM

A patriot is someone who (in his own mind) takes pride in his nation and defends it. This can include people who disagree totally about their country's politics and who recommend completely opposite ways of dealing with problems. ;-D And they will quite likely accuse one another of being "unpatriotic" if that is the case...

Virtually all people are natural patriots to the country they were born in. It's instinctive in people to be that way. They will rationalize their patriotism according to their own self-interest, of course, and that's why things tend to get a little complex when things like money enter the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: number 6
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 09:06 AM

McGrath of Hallow .... that 'patriot' statement was a sarcastic poke at O'Rielly .... if anyone watches his show they would get it ... every night on his show he has a ridiculus segment pertaining to his pick of the day, whose a pinhead and whose a patriot.

Personally I don't think a patriot can be applied only those who are right or left in their political leanings. I really don't know what a patriot is.

but, with that being said ...

I go along with Thomas Paine's view on patriotism ... "It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 08:13 AM

Evidetly the U.S. Department of State needs a fact checker.

Be interesting to see WHICH State Dept. produced the piece- Obama's or the BuShites'.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 07:48 AM

Capitalism: Wealth rolls uphill, shit rolls downhill.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Sep 09 - 03:08 AM

Michael has to be one of the bravest people in the US, if not the world, for having the guts to stand up and question those at the top, to expose them for what they are.

He does this against people who could, quite literally, have him 'taken out' tomorrow, if they so chose.

I'm glad he's making money, not only so he can make more films, to expose more lies, wake more people up and get thousands of people angry at what has been done to them, but because he no doubt probably needs a huge amount of money these days to keep himself and his family safe from those whom he exposes.

He is an Antidote to Apathy.

Thank God!

And you know something, he may just save the world, all on his own...

And maybe, just maybe, THAT is why the librarians of the USA gathered around him to ensure his first book was published and got out into the wider world, after so many tried to have it banned.

'Stupid White Men' are not only the ones who've been doing so much wrong for so very long, but also the ones who have turned their backs upon what has been staring them in the face for decades.

He's a brilliant man who has the ability to get people to change and personally, I'd love to see him 'cloned' (LOL) so that every single country, state, town, village, had a person in it who had the guts to stand up and say "No! THIS IS WRONG!"

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 11:06 PM

That would be no big surprise, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 10:34 PM

Moore has done more for the workers and families of Flint Michigan than some of you know.

He may even have helped these people more than his critics have.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 09:38 PM

Virtually every American thinks of himself as a "patriot", specially in times of national emergency. This doesn't mean they will agree with each other on various political issues nor does it mean they have any respect or understanding for forms of patriotism which differ from their own.

Of COURSE Michael Moore is a patriot. And so is George Bush. And so is Barack Obama. And so is Glenn Beck. And so is Alex Jones. And so is Hillary Clinton. And so is some crazy White supremacit who's planning to plant a bomb somewhere. They're ALL patriots...in their own judgement....by their own best understanding of what it means to be a patriot. Their understanding may be very flawed, and it may be based on ignorance or irrationality.

That's how the human mind works. Virtually everyone out there is a patriot to their own nation....and they'll kill one another over the fact that their understanding of what makes one a patriot differs.

Such is the folly of human political thinking. When various patriotic Germans decided to tried to assassinate Hitler in 1944, and failed, they were deemed "traitors" and executed by other patriotic Germans who thought of themselves as patriots because they were protecting Hitler (the head of state).

The same kind of radical divide exists in the USA. It's like 2 (or more) mutually exclusive realities, both claiming the moral high ground, both utterly certain of their own patriotism...a patriotism based on their own basic assumptions about reality.

The thing I like about Michael Moore, though, is that he makes a strong point about not hating his various political opponents on a personal level no matter how much he hates the policies they are supporting. That's a good sign in regards to Michael Moore. It show that he has a bit more compassion and insight than a lot of people do in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:48 PM

YES MGrath,
who could criticise him for being anti-ordinary people or anti-honest democracy?

It's all he speaks of.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:39 PM

"patriot" is not a word that should be handed over to the right.

Michael Moore would appear to be pre-eminently a patriot, someone who has done a lot to counteract the efforts of the kind of self-proclaimed American "patriots" who have done so much to damn the USA in the eyes of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:01 PM

O'Reilly, on the other hand, works entirely on behalf of the major corporations, and that's the most important difference between the two of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:45 PM

Michael Moore does the people of this country a huge service by bringing out information that we need to know and he helps create the kind of public groundswell that we need in this country to help us get out from under the tyranny of the major corporations. Perhaps someone living in another country might not understand this as well as people living in this country. We don't have to blindly follow him to know how important he and his work are here in this country.

Those of us living in the US without any access to medical care understand this very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: number 6
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:41 PM

Hey look kids .... the bottom line is don't blindly follow leaders albeit they are politicans or showbiz types .... it's a money driven capitialist world out there and these types certainly will take their cut of the action.

You can be slightly skeptical of Bill O'Rielly and criticize him and still be a right winger and a patriot.

You can be slightly skeptical of Michael Moore and criticize him and still be a left winger and a socialist.

Personally I lean pretty far to the left on socialist issues and my anxiety level goes up a few meters whenever I hear about the sleaze, and greed of the corporate capitalists. I prefer to admire the people that walk the walk ... the doctors and nurses that work in the fields of 3rd world have not nations, the mother theresas out there, the people out there that work in the food handout centres, the legal aid lawyers, the people out tere on the front lines helping the homeless, those that work with the street kids, the addicts ... you get the drift. Watch, listen and understand these people, they speak the factual truth.

I just don't think Bill and Mike really walk their talk 100% .. looking at Mike do you think he really walks at all .... ok, cheap shot ... my apologies Mike ... anyway, I'm outta here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:39 PM

The thing is, "capitalism" is not the same thing as "free enterprise" - in some ways it is the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Capitalism: A Love Story
From: sing4peace
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 03:07 PM

Here's Malvina Reynolds' take on the subject...

THE MONEY CROP -

Oh, money has its' own way
And money has to grow
It grows on human blood and bone
As any child would know
It's iron stuff and paper stuff
With no life of its' own
And so it gets its' growing sap
From human blood and bone.

Many a child is hungering
Because the wage is low
And men will die on battlefields (I sing "many will die")
To help the money grow
And those who take the money crop
They're at it without end
They plant it in the tenements
To make it grow again...

The little that they leave for us
We cannot make a seed
We spend it on our shoddy clothes
And every daily need
We spend it in a minute
In an hour it is gone
To find its' way to grow again
On human blood and bone
Blood and bone....

(c. Schroder Music Co. 1966)
------
Joyce
(sure I'm a Marxist...Harpo was always my favorite)