BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:28 PM

I am impressed that Gadhafi's troops are still willing to risk their lives at his orders. Anyone got an explanation for that behavior?

Sure, they may be very well paid but it takes more than that to continue to stay on the offensive as they've been doing.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 05:59 PM

"For Teribus and anybody else who thinks Libya has been worse off under Qaddafi than they were under his predecessor"

Please show me Guest giovanni anywhere where I have intimated that "I thought that Libya was worse off under Gaddafi" than under King Idris. But please you don't really have to strain yourself, fact is I never said or inferred anything of the sort - so stop putting words into my mouth.

You made reference to "Libya's idealistic socilaist state" and I merely pointed out to you that there is nothing idealistic or socialist about Libya it is run as kleptocracy for the benefit of Gaddafi and those closest to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 02:37 AM

Fantastic feedback, just what one expects from Mudcat these days!

I'm neither a leftist nor a socialist, but I am a realist. I may not agree with the way Qaddafi wants Libya to live, but I do understand where he's coming from. He is an idealist and works hard at keeping his principles in place. Too hard by Western standards, but Arab states are not run according to Western standards, and probably can't be. Western intrusion works as well in the 21st century as it did in the Crusades.

Guest999 says some of my information is wrong but doesn't say which, nor why. I would be interested to know - the whole point of discussion should be to share knowledge rather than to try to big yourself up by putting others down.

Which brings me neatly to Ron Davies, who questions my take on the ideology of Libya's socialist state. The answer is that it is idealistic therefore probably not practical - not many socialist states are very successful - but it is the state that Qaddafi's revolution put into words (see Green Book) and tries very hard to maintain. Ron asks why half of the Libyan people oppose it? Answer is that the supposition of half the people being opposed is simply the outpourings of the UK and US propaganda machines - which you are free to believe if you are naive enough. The truth is that nobody knows how many people the rebels represent, nor even who they are. Hence the Russian take on Al-Qaeda.

For Teribus and anybody else who thinks Libya has been worse off under Qaddafi than they were under his predecessor (the Western supported puppet King Idris) - you need to look up the statistics on hospital and school building and compare with the "achievements" of Idris during his 20 odd years of rule.

Qaddafi and his regime may not be everyone's cup of tea but his revolution in '69 was absolutely necessary to stop UK, US and Idris plundering. Plunder may still be going on but Libya is still better off than it was, due to the doubling of the oil price and nationalisation of oilfields in '71ish.

The latest revolution is simply the result of copycat action following Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen and maybe some other states, which supports the Al-Qaeda theory that any unrest is better for them than continued peace. The only difference is that the 3 countries who have been historically opposed to Qaddafi (UK, USA, France) are not bombing those other countries.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

"Road to a ceasefire" is exactly what Gadhafi wants---with him or his sons still left in the regime.

Then, when the West OK's this, comes payback on the rebels--which Gadhafi has already promised more than once.    After all, they are 'vermin".    Sounds amazingly like a Goebbels-endorsed film.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM

I wouldn't pin much too hope on the AU delegation:

"Nabila Ramdani, a French journalist and Middle East expert, said the situation with regard to Libya had reached not only a military but also a political deadlock.

"It's quite worrying," she told Al Jazeera. "Unfortunately, my view about the African Union is that it will appear as not being a credible group of people to be in a position to broker a deal on behalf of Gaddafi.

"They are a group of dictators themselves and they won't be taken very seriously given that they're from very brutal regimes which are in many ways far worse than the Gaddafi regime."

Ahmad Bani, a rebel spokesman, rejected a negotiated outcome to the conflict.

"There is no other solution than the military solution, because this dictator's language is annihilation, and people who speak this language only understand this language," he told Al Jazeera."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM

The Rebels evidently were successful in chasing Gadhafi's soldiers out of Ajdabiya. I'm surprised.

Meanwhile the Organization of African Unity has had a meeting with Gadhafi in Tripoli and it's said that he has endorsed their "roadmap to a ceasefire" whatever that means. The OAU representatives are flying to Benghazi next, and if they're not shot down, will confer with the Libya Interim Council there.

Oh, and appropriate obscenities to all of the above who feed on such things.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 12:42 PM

Latest update from the "front" wherever that is now:

"Rebel defences around Ajdabiya appeared to be failing as Gaddafi's soldiers broke into the heart of the strategic town, 90 miles from Benghazi, and engaged in running street battles after again outmanoeuvring the revolutionaries.

Although western powers continued their air strikes, they did not appear to deter Gaddafi's forces."

Gadhafi's soldiers appear to have outflanked Ajdabiya, attacking it from the south and east. NATO planes were able to destroy 10 or so tanks but that didn't stop the attack. Resistence by the Rebels continues in the town.

Benghazi may itself be attacked next.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:58 AM

"Jack Campin"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:55 AM

Also "Libya's idealistic sociallst state".    If it is idealistic, and benefits the Libyan people as a whole, why do half the Libyans want themselves to topple this idealistic state?

I think "drlvel" is an apt description of the "idealist socialist" theory.

Or is it a proxy war, as alleged by the towering genius Jack Camplin, who wants to tell us about the Sudetenland parallel--but somehow has not found time to come up with any evidence?

Gee, I wonder why not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:47 AM

"half of Iraq, including half the military,"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:45 AM

Not that an ideological warrior, with which Mudcat is graced by an amazing number, should understand this, but I'll try anyway:

"This one is about oil".    That was said about Iraq also. In Iraq's case there may be some truth to the accusation--though I think it was to a large extent GWB's calculation that a short successful war against an obviously evil regime would prove very popular with the US electorate.

Since many of us realized that the Iraq invasion was a trumped-up move--to prevent something totally unproven (WMD)-- many of us Mudcatters opposed it completely. And good old John who wants to beat the "imperialist" drum would say the Iraq invasion was all about oil.    And again I think he is oversimplying--not that leftists ever do such a thing.   Not much. Of course not.

Some of us who opposed the Iraq invasion are in favor of the Libya campaign.

There are clear differences.   To allege a parallel, you would, as I noted earlier, have to posit that half of iraq , including half the military had broken away from Saddam before the first Western bomb fell in 2003.   And that the rebels in Iraq had made many direct appeals to the West to help them against Saddam.   Neither of which was the case.

And as Charlie, I believe, has pointed out earlier:    to say the Libyan invasion is all about oil makes precisely no sense for this reason:   before the attack by Western planes Libya was very happy to sell as much oil to the West as the West wanted.   So there would be no reason to attack Libya to get oil.

Unless you think the West wants to take over Libya.    Which is nothing but a typically stupid Leftist theory, graced by precisely zero evidence.

Again, hope I'm not being too subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:42 AM

I didn't see it as a rant, g. However, some of your information is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM

"Libya's idealistic socialist state" Guest giovanni is in fact a kleptocracy set up to enrich Gaddafi and his family Saif's yearly allowance amounts to £170,000,000. Not a thing can be done in Libya without involving the Libyan Investment Fund which is 100% owned by Gaddafi - I guess for a "socialist" that is about as ideal as it gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM

"imperialist crap".

Drivel.   Leftist tripe. Hope I'm not too subtle.

More details later.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:55 AM

This one really is about oil.

In the early 70's Libya doubled the price of oil taken by the British and US oil extractors. At the same time, they took a 51% stake in all oilfield developments. The US in particular have never forgiven them for this and have sought to oust the regime ever since.

Qaddafi set up the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya on a strictly Islamic basis. UK and US don't care for the way Islamist states work, so haven't forgiven them for that either.

Two significant smearings of Libya have happened; the French airliner downed by a bomb loaded in Congo, and Locherbie. The bomb in Congo was loaded in Brazzaville by a Congolese anti-government rebel. Libya had no involvement in Congo, but the French investigators "extracted a confession" (how?) from the Congolese rebel to implicate 6 important Libyans. The Libyans were found guilty in absentia by the Parisian court, extradition having been sensibly refused by Libya. (France had a dispute with Libya at the time over the Chadian issue).

People who know more about Locherbie than I do believe that Iranians were responsible, but the desperation to pin everything on to Libya meant that the guilty verdict was in place probably before the trial started - see Steve Shaw's earlier posts.

Russia will not touch this latest UN move hence only NATO (UK, US and France, surprise surprise) are involved - and just how quick were they to jump in! Russia believes that the problems throughout the Arab world are inspired and supported by Al Qaeda, and are bemused that Britain and America are bombing on their side, are anxious to arm them and commit ground troops.

UK and USA continue to try to show the world that you can get what you want so long as you have enough bombs to drop. UK has encouraged a "special relationship" with the school bully, thus giving him sanction to carry on behaving in his atrocious way. This war is illegal in USA because to go to war requires approval of Congress, which has not been given because it has not been sought. Nor was it when Reagan bombed Libya and killed Qaddafi's daughter (military target?). And why? - in response to some smoke and mirrors paranoia involving Libyan hit squads in the USA which mysteriously never materialised.

Libya's idealistic socialist state will be made to fail and the mob will try to take over. Whoever takes over will first spend Libyan peoples' money on replacing the weaponry that NATO have destroyed.

Does anyone yet know the name of a person, tribe, political or regional affiliation that represents the revolutionaries? Or how many people in Libya support the revolution?
Agreed there will always be those jealous of Western "freedom" (to get access to alcohol, drugs, fast food etc) rather than live according to the Koran - that will never change.

Libya in general and Qaddafi in particular are probably the most widely misunderstood of the Arab countries, which are all widely misunderstood by the West. Libya has lived in relative peace over the last 40 odd years following the bloodless coup in '69, (except for the Chadian war wherein Chad tried to claim back disputed territory on the border. Libya lost heavily to their opponents, Chad, France and, oh look - USA).

USA and their "special relationship" buddy need to start getting real about countries they don't understand and stop trying to impose their own solutions to problems that are none of their business - it hasn't worked in Afghanistan or Iraq, and it won't work in Libya.

Forgive the rant but this imperialist crap really makes me angry.

g

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:41 AM

Do the supporters of the insurgency here, believe that the pro Gadaffi civilians have as much right to Nato protection as those who support the the insurgency......for whatever reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 11 - 04:38 AM

A Nato spokesman has said, "It is our mission to protect ALL civilians in Libya". I take it that these words mean ....including civilians who support Col. Gadaffi.

This in response to questions over the destruction of insurgent tanks(by mistake) and the deaths of fourteen insurgents.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:45 AM

Guest 99-

Thanks for the update.

How are you related to Guest 999? Is there also a Guest 9?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,99
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 11:38 AM

Then the UN and then Nato will have to amend the present ROE, Ron. I agree with you that TMWATN has to go.

The following is from April 6:

Libya targeted civilian protesters - war crimes court

Luis Moreno Ocampo is investigating Col Gaddafi, his sons and close aides

The chief prosecutor said the plans had been a reaction to street protests that led to the fall of the Tunisian regime.

Luis Moreno Ocampo is expected to request arrest warrants for Col Muammar Gaddafi, his sons and close aides.

Nato has vowed to do all it can to protect civilians after rebels accused it of failing to protect Misrata city.

"Misrata is our number one priority," Nato deputy spokeswoman Carmen Romero told the AFP news agency on Wednesday.

She added that alliance warplanes had hit Col Gaddafi's military assets around Libya's third largest city on Monday.

"We have a clear mandate and we will do everything to protect the civilians of Misrata," Ms Romero said, referring to the UN resolution that permits "all necessary measures" to defend Libya's population.

'Nothing left'

The rebels have been pushed eastward, beyond the oil town of Brega
On Tuesday, rebel commander Gen Abdul Fattah Younis complained that bureaucracy was causing Nato to take hours to respond to calls for air strikes.

"[Nato] is letting the people of Misrata die every day," he told reporters in the de facto rebel capital Benghazi. "If Nato should wait another week, there will be no more Misrata."

In The Hague on Tuesday, Mr Moreno-Ocampo said: "We have evidence that after the Tunisia and Egypt conflicts in January, people in the regime were planning how to control demonstrations inside Libya.

"The planning at the beginning was to use tear gas and [if that failed to work]... shooting," he told Reuters.

Doctors said last week that at least 200 people had been killed there since the uprising began on 17 February - a figure likely to have risen in recent days.

Nato says international air strikes have reduced Col Gaddafi's military capabilities by nearly a third, but his forces have deliberately moved weaponry into civilian areas to hamper air strikes.

A Nato-led coalition mandated by the UN to protect civilians is enforcing a no-fly zone and attacking ground targets. It accuses Gaddafi forces of sheltering weapons in civilian areas.


The oil tanker is a welcome sight for Libyan rebels
Rebel forces in the east of the country have retreated after heavy bombardment from Col Gaddafi's army, the BBC's Wyre Davies says from the front line, near the town of Ajdabiya.

In the past 24 hours, heavy and accurate shelling from Gaddafi troops has pushed the disorganised and poorly-equipped rebel army back to the fringes of the town, our correspondent adds.

It is a clear indication that without the protective cover of Nato air strikes, they would find it almost impossible to take the next town of Brega, never mind marching on Tripoli and removing Col Gaddafi from power, he adds.

In a boost to the rebels on Tuesday, a tanker arrived at the eastern port of Tobruk to pick up the first consignment of oil to be exported from the rebel-held region.

The Greek-owned ship is capable of carrying more than $100m (£61m) worth of oil.

Since the revolt against Col Gaddafi's rule began nearly two months ago, exports of Libya's main commodity have collapsed, driving up the price of oil to a two-and-a-half year high.

Also on Tuesday, the Gaddafi government made senior diplomat Abdelati Obeidi its new foreign minister, replacing Moussa Koussa, who sought refuge on the UK last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:30 AM

Sorry, Bruce.   If NATO does nothing but "protect civilians" the conflict will never end--until the rebels give up.

Without more than the "protect civilians" mandate, the rebels are doomed.

If we accept that, then fine.

But their blood will be on our hands, just as much as when we encouraged rebels in 1991 in Iraq, then stood back and watched them slaughtered.

And after all, if they are in fact rebelling, they are no longer "civilians".

That's why that formulation is a disaster--unless we are willing to see Gadhafi resume his iron rule.

Which I don't think we should.

Alea jacta est.   And we should realize that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:53 PM

Gentlemen, lest we get carried away with our own rhetoric, NATO's mission is NOT to help the rebels. It's mission is to help protect civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 11:04 PM

Ron-

Yes, that's the problem.

There are some wonderful Rebel spokespeople out there, and some well-intentioned NATO interveners as well, and they're all trying to figure out how to work with whatever else is out there to send Kadhafi off to Venezuela.

It's a little late to send Teddy Roosevelt in to lead the charge. Hillary might be up to it but Obama has a cooler head.

Hopefully somebody will get tired of the debate and just do it.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

"whether NATO has a mandate..."

Oh brother, if we (and especially NATO) are determined to agonize about that, that clinches it:
guaranteed stalemate--until the rebels get disgusted and give up.

Either it is worth toppling Gadhafi or it is not.

And if it isn't, just why did the West say over and over that it was?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM

Ake-

"do you really think Gadaffi's men should play fair and sit out in the desert waiting for some invisible assassin to press a button and blow them all to pieces?"

No, I was merely pointing out that now the job of destroying more of Gadhafi's heavy armament from the air is made more difficult to achieve given the fluid battle-line and similarity of fighting assets. And it's an open question whether NATO has a mandate to even provide close air support for a Rebel advance, assuming they had the communications needed to coordinate it. I suppose, at some point soon special forces embedded with the Rebels will provide that function. How to wage war is a learning process. So is waging peace.

France does appear to be now assuming more of a leadership role now within NATO, filling in for the withdrawn US assets. They certainly have a more direct interest in maintaining a supply of oil to their country from Libya than we do.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 08:15 AM

"I would be much more interested in your views on the future of capitalism in the UK or US, given the situation we find ourselves in financially.

Now that we are owned by China and India, how long do you think it will be before we are all herded off to the abattoir, with "unsustainable" branded on our arses."

Bit off topic here aren't we?

What situation do we find ourselves in, that we haven't been in many times before? Only difference is that we can work our way out of trouble your bloody idiotic central Government controlled marxist regimes couldn't.

"Now that we are owned by China and India"

Well of course we are not "owned by China, India" or anybody else, the USA most certainly isn't. You obviously have a very simple approach and outlook when it comes to money and debt. Do not look at GDP, GNP and compare that to what the country owes without taking into account what the OWNS.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 11 - 03:25 AM

Teribus......I could explain for the hundredth time how we become enslaved by the capitalist system, just as much as by any dictatorship, or totalitarian regime, but no one is listening.

The truth is that humanity is a species addicted to gambling....and most of us love to play the lottery.....we convince ourselves that we can be the guy who wins the millions.....conveniently forgetting the millions who lose their £.

I would be much more interested in your views on the future of capitalism in the UK or US, given the situation we find ourselves in financially.

Now that we are owned by China and India, how long do you think it will be before we are all herded off to the abattoir, with "unsustainable" branded on our arses.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:09 PM

It will end right now, Ron, because I have no intention of wasting my time tonight fighting with you about politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM

"my own direct experience".    Right.    Experience of Brazil, Costa Rica, etc. being geographically situated where Cuba is now.


Sorry, that's more absurd speculation, based on nothing but the poster's guess, just possibly influenced slightly by ideological blinders.

Let's start living in the real world.

Historically there has been huge migration to the US from Cuba, usually harshly opposed by Castro.

And by the way, let's actually return to the topic--which is not Cuba.   I will start a thread for Cuba, in hopes that this blind alley will disappear from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 06:43 PM

1: NATO is NOT involved in supporting any one side in a "civil war". NATO's involvement in what is happening in Libya concerns protection of civilians and maintaining a "No-Fly Zone". Recently NATO has shown that it will engage and destroy anyone attempting to interfere with that mission irrespective of which side they are on.

2: "I take it that it would be quite alright if we were slaughtering young men under the control of Col. Gadaffi?"

Most certainly if they are attacking civilian targets or centres of population, or attempting to interfere with the enforcement of the "No-Fly Zone".

3: "How do we know how many inhabitants of Libya support the Col, or how many support the insurgents?"

Basically we don't, although it cannot be that many as the "good" Colonel and the "Father of the Revolution" has seen fit to hire and arm mercenary forces to fire on and kill his own people (Psst Ake I bet those killed and maimed don't love him)

4: "Why do we not tell the truth about our military actions, do these people think we are totally stupid?"

Well obviously you and I have been reading completely different accounts. According to you and others here "WE" supposedly are at war with Libya ("WE" of course are not) UNSCR 1973 tells you all that there is to be told. If you believe what MSM tells you then you are totally stupid.

5 "Gadaffi's regime may be harsh, but he appears to provide for his people better than most other states in the area."

Bullshit, but there again I forget you yearn for oppressive authoritarian regimes that exercise total control over the general population. Obviously a large proportion of the citizens of Libya feel differently to the extent that they are prepared to risk their lives to alter the state of things inside their country.

6: "The targeting of Col. Gadaffi's troops is terrorism, designed to make his supporters change sides and force him out of power."

If Colonel Gaddafi's troops and hired mercenaries are targeting and killing Libyan civilians then they are legitimate targets in accordance with the terms of UNSCR 1973. If actions taken by UN forces causes defections all well and good. If actions taken by UN forces causes Gaddafi to relinquish power then all well and good.

7: "I find this whole episode almost identical to the destruction of Iraq.....how can we forget so quickly the final excuse for our involvement in the deaths of a million men women and children"

Has Iraq been destroyed? I do not think so. Once again the "mythical million dead" is thrown into the discussion. Akenaton if you wish to claim that one million people have died in Iraq due to actions taken since March 2003 then prove it - don't quote "ESTIMATES FROM BATCH SAMPLED STUDIES" the Iraqi authorities put the numbe at around 150,000

By the bye "It's NOT because gaddafi's a bad man" It's because troops under Gaddafi's orders started gunning down his own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM

Charley.....do you really think Gadaffi's men should play fair and sit out in the desert waiting for some invisible assassin to press a button and blow them all to pieces?

Please try to understand what we are getting involved in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM

Having seen Cuba, and Mexico, and Trinidad, I have to say that I think the Cubans have a far better society in most respects, and that their people are better off for it. None of those societies are perfect, they all have notable problems, and a great many people in ALL of them would like to get to North America for a great variety of personal reasons...but the Cubans, in my opinion, have by far the best society of the three. All of Latin America tries to "escape" to the southern USA, and for very similar reasons. Not just the Cubans. Yet critics of Cuba seem to conveniently forget that when they bring up the matter of Cubans who drown trying to reach Florida. Why does this set Cuba apart in any way? Hell, if the Mexicans or the Brazilians or the Guatemalans or the Costa Ricans, or any other Latin Americans were living such a short distance across that narrow strait from Florida, they'd be doing the same damn thing...without Cuban socialism to be quoted as a dire reason for why they are doing it.

And if you don't agree me...fine. (shrug) Who really cares anyway?   I'm just stating my opinion, based on my own direct experience and observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

I didn't realise NATO was engaged in a "civil war"

I take it that it would be quite alright if we were slaughtering young men under the control of Col. Gadaffi?

What right do we have to support one side in a "civil war"?
How do we know how many inhabitants of Libya support the Col, or how many support the insurgents?
Why do we not tell the truth about our military actions, do these people think we are totally stupid?

Gadaffi's regime may be harsh, but he appears to provide for his people better than most other states in the area.

He is also no more of a terrorist than Western leaders.....as I said earlier we all practice terrorism.
The targeting of Col. Gadaffi's troops is terrorism, designed to make his supporters change sides and force him out of power.

The really sick part is that it is perpetrated by people who will never go anywhere near Libya....have no interest in Libya or its people.....who have only self interest at heart.

I find this whole episode almost identical to the destruction of Iraq.....how can we forget so quickly the final excuse for our involvement in the deaths of a million men women and children

"It's because Saddam/Gadaffi is a BAD MAN"......Idiots!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 12:52 PM

Getting back to Libya. Evidently the NATO air strikes that the Rebels have been calling for have resulted in another incident in which Rebel fighters were injured or killed (from Al Jazeera):

"A NATO air attack has hit a Libyan rebel position near the eastern oil town of Brega, killing at least five fighters, according to rebel fighters and a hospital worker.

Thursday's attack also left at least 10 others wounded, witnesses and correspondents of the AFP news agency said.

Medical workers carried uniforms soaked in blood from one of hospital rooms. And some rebel fighters were weeping on their knees in the corridor.

It was the second time in less than a week that rebels blamed NATO for bombing their comrades by mistake. Thirteen died in an air raid not far from the same spot on Saturday.

A Reuters news agency reporter saw bloodstained stretchers being brought out of the hospital in Ajdabiya, where those wounded in the attack were being treated.

Ajdabiya lies about 80km from Brega."

"We were standing by our tanks and NATO fired two rockets at us," said one, Salem Mislat. "NATO are liars. They are siding with Gaddafi."

Such incidents will unfortunately be unavoidable as Gadhafi troops position more of their tanks and other heavy firepower within civilian areas. The civil war will only get more brutal.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM

"Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years."

Well for the most part subsidised to the hilt by the USSR whilst practicing that favoured old communist art commonly known throughout the free world as "State Oppression".

"Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world."

"better loved" you have got to be joking!! "better loved" indeed - in a pigs ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM

And one also should consider the question of how much personal wealth that Gadhafi has managed to wring out of his economy in the past decades, and how this correlates with anyone's model of a socialist society. I don't think Libya scores very high on that test.

For years I was delighted to read about Tanzania's experiment with "African Socialism." They've still managed to avoid civil wars and wars with their neighbors and there doesn't seem to be one family reaping the lion's share of the economy. But Tanzania's economy is still marginal by most measurements. Still, it's done better than many more richly endowed African nations.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM

Cubans "healthier, happier...."

Not the ones in prison for imagined crimes against the regime.

And if the Cuban people are in such great shape, it sure is a mystery why so many have been so desperate to leave this socialist paradise--and some have even drowned in trying to do so.


Nor, as i said--, returning to the topic--, are quite a few Libyans overjoyed with their regime--quite a few seem to be willing to die opposing it.   Another mystery, I suppose--at least to those with ideological blinders on tight.



But I do hope things improve at your house, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM

Cuba under Fidel is a country that has sustained itself against all the odds for fifty years.
We may have more material posessions than the cuban people, but I;m sure they are healthier,better educated.....and happier...in the real sense of the word.

Fidel was no "liberal", he was as hard as iron when he needed to be, to fight off capitalist insurrection.....but I am quite sure there is not a better loved leader anywhere in the world.

He is an example of a model which can work any where if the leader is true to his people.....and most importantly at this time, a model which is sustainable in a world of shrinking resources.

We must all realise that the "good times" in capitalist terms are gone forever, despite what Teribus exhorts us to believe.


Just as a personal footnote, this winter has been a dark an gloomy time Chez Ake, with family health matters to deal with.
Brucie....your words were as a ray of sunlight through to dark, you have been a good friend, there are very few with a heart so kind.
Many thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:17 AM

I've known Ake for a good five or six years, and while we have occasional disagreements, he remains pretty much a pacifist and he's often been right that the West's motivations have been absolutely wrong. The invasion of Iraq for example--he spoke against that in 2003 while I was still buying into the propaganda as popped out by Cheney, Rumsfeld and that idiot that served two terms while being elected only once.

My hero said the following: "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

I expect Ake split a gut when he heard that. He was right, imo, that time. Imo, he's wrong this time, but in the words of Paul Newman in the movie "Hombre", that's to find out.

Trust things are good, Ake.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 11:14 PM

OK, Ake.

"Education" in Libya is a plus?

Only if your taste runs to no dissent--on pain of death.   Starting a political party is a capital offense.

And selective ignorance--teaching English and French, for instance, is banned.

But perhaps you think the masses don't need that anyway.


Just why do you think the rebels are heaviiy populated by intellectuals--and dissident military officers.?




Even Gadhafi's "heir apparent" has recognized the need for reform for quite a while.


Which is a big reason he is suspect among the real hard-core Gadhafi supporters==those who aren't just foreign mercenaries.

And a serious obstacle to his taking over smoothly if Gadhafi should leave the scene suddenly.

Which we should be encouraging.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:59 PM

Ran across an interesting thesis on the topic:    author said that Chavez is a bosom buddy of Gadhafi:    a big reason being that he admires him for taking power in a coup, not an election.

Supposedly Chavez wishes he himself had done so.

In many ways, they are in fact birds of a feather.

Chavez does not appear so vicious--yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 10:40 PM

I did take us 20 years or so to work out the kinks in the model. Sometimes a George Washington or a Nelson Mandela is essential to the mix.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:45 PM

I would say that's generally correct.

The American revolutionaries siezed power by force of arms...and some of them wanted to crown George Washington as their first king! To Washington's everlasting credit, he did not take them up on that offer, and the revolution resulted in a representative government instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM

"Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start"

And a damn sight better guarantee than you get from some person or some group that gains power by force of arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM

Let me add further emphasis to that...

It's still QUITE a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi.

However, I think what really has secured our civil rights and our generally peaceable societies in the English-speaking world is simply the long established social traditions those societies have been built upon, and which we are all accustomed to. We grow up with those traditions which include such rights as free speech, freedom of assembly, due process of law, and so on. That bulwark of tradition tends to maintain itself, and that is mainly what has protected us against the establishment of a violent dictatorship.

I don't think our fractious and divisive political parties have been of much assistance in maintaining our freedoms...although there is one good thing about them: they each serve as a watchdog on what the other is doing, and that's not the case in a single party state.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 01:38 PM

Elections in themselves are no guarantee of achieving a genuine democracy. But they're a start... ;-)

I think our present elections in the USA, Canada, and the UK are largely a sham, a charade, and the reason I think that is that no matter which party gets elected you end up with substantially the same policies being enacted once they're in office. (there are trivial differences...but only trivial ones, in my opinion)

I think that's happening because all the (larger) parties have ended up being bought out by the financial elite, therefore they serve that financial elite, not the public who elects them.

And there's absolutely nothing the general public can do about it as things presently stand, because if all the major political parties tacitly serve the same entrenched special interests, then your vote is rendered meaningless.

Nevertheless....it's still a bit better than being ruled by a single autocratic dictator-for-life such as Mr Gadhaffi. ;-) Just thought I'd better mention that before anyone goes off the deep end and assumes I am saying something I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:20 PM

"So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless."

Yep that about covers it.

By the way it WAS APPLIED to the Taliban only in that instance they were playing the role Gaddafi is currently playing in Libya today.

It was applied in Iraq against the insurgents and foreign jihadi fighters "Sunni Awakening"

Talking about lauding "Democracy" Akenaton you old Commie You!!

Tell me when Gaddafi, or the Taliban for that matter ever stood for election?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

I think it is a little irrelevant Charley.....as far as I am concerned, but others may wish to respond to that line.
I didn't mean to be discourteous in not answering....I just dont know if he is guilty of the crimes which he is supposed to have committed.

I do know that there is a huge question mark over the Lockerbie attrocity and in all likelyhood Gadaffi was not involved.

Just as a matter of interest, I was travelling to a greyhound track on the M6 not far from Lockerbie that night.
Our party heard the news on BBC radio and turned back.

I am quite impressed by the way Gadaffi has treated his people regarding Health and education compared to other leaders in that area, but if I had been a young Libyan, full of youthful protest, I might well have been amongst the insurgents.

I joined the Communist party at seventeen in protest, in the days when it meant the loss of your house and your job and I'm still a "believer" to a certain extent tho' I can now see the down side.

I dont believe we have any chance of living fulfilled lives under "liberal democracy" The whole thing is a circus.....a fantasy and a dangerous one at that.

The promotion of "democracy" now seems to be one of the main causes of death and destruction on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

Ake-

You evidently didn't notice my question above:

So lest I misunderstand you, do you have any criticism left for Col Gadaffi?

I may have missed some of his good points in the last 40 years.

Or is it irrelevant to this discussion?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 03:50 AM

Cynicism Teribus?......How's this?
1: It was extremely important that France, Qatar and now Italy have officially recognised the rebel ruling council as the "Government of Libya". That semantically overcomes the accusation about interfering in a civil war and bi-lateral agreements can be made between those "Governments".

So we are to adopt insurgents and recognise them as the official govt, to undermine any regime we dont happen to like/agree with?
Very "democratic"!......Could this also be applied to "the Taliban"?
Sunni/Shia insurgents in Iraq?.... The IRA?....the list is endless.

As you appear to be doing a bit of uncharacteristic wriggling, maybe I can be allowed one little wriggle.
I was not advocating a socialist insurgency....just providing a debating point. Capitalism survives by searching out other resources and people to exploit, when a society becomes unsustainable.
We have just run out of options......I dont think it will be long before we see much civil unrest, and the democratic mask will surely slip.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM

Ehmm Ake, the capitalist system as failed many times, sometimes a damn sight worse than it's present woes, but guess what? It is a resilient, flexible and adaptable system that is not shackled to a whole load of political bullshit, so it keeps bouncing back - Same could not be said for the alternative Marxist Communist Socialist systems that always kept falling flat on their backsides but which never ever recover and get back up again.

Attempts to "implant western style democracy"? Where? Afghanistan was a democracy (had been since about 1929) before the Communist PDPA and the Soviet 40th Army completely screwed the place up. Iraq was given a completely free hand to establish its own assemblies and write their own constitution. In what way are "WE" (The big bad west) forcing anything on the people of Libya? None as far as I can see.

In the post you were responding to I was predicting not promoting anything, I was asked a direct question and I answered it, novel sort of a concept for most around here I know.