BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:21 PM

religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:02 PM

Interesting analyis, Piers. I don't know if Castro is really a communist or not, but I doubt he ever would have been called one, had his revolution in 1959 not thrown out the various American big business and Mafia holdings from Cuba. When you did that in those days, you were immediately labelled "a communist" by the American national media. That's how it worked. Whatever Castro truly was didn't matter. He was officially a communist from then on, and communists are in league with the devil, don't you know? ;-) They are the enemies of all that is decent, sane, and godly. They are not really even human. They must be exterminated, every last one of them, in order to make the world safe for....---------------(fill in the blank with your favorite fantasy word).

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 06:29 AM

"I don't usually comment on PE's posts but here I'll make an exception." - Sandy McLean.

To divert from the thread's subject, why don't you usually comment on my posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:10 AM

In Cuba, wealth production is based on capital and wage labour. Most of the citizens have only their labour to sell as a commodity while a minority control the means of production. In Cuba, they have all the essential requirements of capitalism. Workers are exploited in Cuba, just as we are in the UK. Cuba is a hierarchical society just like the UK. They have money, banks, secret police, just like 'the West'. It is a capitalist society. Workers go on strike in Cuba, there are prostitutes in Cuba, there are thieves in Cuba.

Socialism/communism, is social/common ownership, as in possession, as in control and thus democratic, not in the capitalist sense of electing leaders but in the sense of everybody participating in running their workplaces, their community and their lives.

Fidel Castro can call himself a communist, he can call himself Marilyn Monroe, but it doesn't make it true. Once you pick up gun, once you set yourself outside the rest of the working class as a vanguard to bring about the revolution on behalf of others, once you call yourself a leader, then you have stepped outside the socialist/communist tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:29 PM

For sure, Bill. ;-) Among the Cubans I met there were some who were quite critical of the system down there and others who were quite supportive of it. But like people anywhere, they all enjoyed complaining a certain amount about the stupidity and inflexibility of government bureaucracy and red tape.

As for being confronted with other systems...well, I was confronted with their system and there were some things I really liked about it...there were other aspects which I like better in Canada. It was a mixed picture, not a "good vs evil" dichotomy, which is what political propagandists (whose business is war) all would like you to believe.

One of the smartest people I met down there was Mr Freddy Gonzales, the mission's translator. Freddy has now made 2 trips to Canada to visit his friends here. He enjoyed it, but it did not result in his "conversion" to our way of life. He did not react by wishing to flee the supposed horrors of Communist Cuba. Nope. He is proud of Cuba, and he has no desire to move to Canada where he could readily enjoy a much more affluent lifestyle. Why? Because he loves Cuba and he believes in Cuba.

He's a patriot. Such people are good to see, in any country. As a Canadian, that's how I feel about Canada. I'm glad that's how he feels about Cuba, and I understand why.

It doesn't matter whether a country is socialist, capitalist...or like the vast majority, a mixture of the two. It is not the determinant of moral right and wrong. Both socialism and capitalism can be used well...or abused. Both are capable of going astray. Bad leadership can ruin any system.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:52 PM

Well.."socialist/communist" is defined and practiced in different ways in different parts of the world. Political theory is fine, but pragmatism causes governments to pick and choose among tenets, and citizens to pick & choose among responses.

I have no doubt, Little Hawk, that "socialist/communists" can be as nice as anyone else....within the system....it's when they are confronted with OTHER systems that it gets interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:45 PM

Fidel is still a socialist/communist. So are many other Cubans. I met them in person back in 2000 (not Fidel...various ordinary Cuban citizens), and among them were some of the most admirable, honorable, and capable people I have ever met in my entire life.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:23 PM

...by clicking on "Membership" up the top of the screen and following instructions.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

gern - just login again.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Gern (apparently demoted to GUEST)
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:49 AM

Yes we're still out here, and we're taking names.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:35 AM

Give my regards to Ian. I had a stack of respect for him. He did live in Birmingham. His kids went to Manor Park Infants where my wife taught.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:03 AM

"You're confusing totalitarianism with communism - supposed communist states don't have the monopoly on that." - stigweard.

True, but communist societes were (are)totalitarian.

'We should hold these ex-communists to account for their views'
Does that law include 'ex-left-wing social democrats' like yourself.." - ythanside.

Yes, but then I admit I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:57 PM

Thanks Bruce...You're "the man"

I've got "writers cramp"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

"Think small...organise less...you have everything you need...Ake"

Brilliant, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

The more I internalize this thread and the poverty thread the more I want to sing

Oh, you playboys and playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world,
Ain't a-gonna run my world,
Ain't a-gonna run my world.
You playboys and playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world,
Not now or no other time.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM

I hate Capitalism more than anything else. It is a virulent disease to which we have developed a certain amount of immunity.
We don't see or care about the long term effect.
I was subjected in my early working life, to almost Dickensian conditions. It was Capitalism in the raw, my fellow apprentices and I were obliged to travel up to forty miles on an open lorry with no shelter even in frost and snow.

The driver stopped every twenty minutes to allow us to "thaw out".
The Boss paid off workers at regular intervals ..."To keep the rest on their toes", and unemployment in those days meant real hunger.

Before long I developed an interest in folk music, especially Woody Guthry, Pete Seeger and Leadbelly. I found I could relate to what they sang about, shared their rage at the injustice of it all.
At 17 I found a communist Party magazine called "Challenge" which had been discarded, filled in the enrollment form it contained, Sent it off to King Street and became a member of the Young Communist League.

If it had become known that I was a "Communist" I would certainly have been dismissed from my job and through the Masonic grapevine I would have been blacklisted in every building firm in the area.

The Communist ideal has coloured my life, how I've lived it and how I've treated my brothers and sisters, but as I near the end of my life I begin to realise that Socialists/Communists ignore something of great importance....Personal freedom.

Not the freedom to manipulate others in our search for wealth and power as the Capitalists do, creating markets where none exist or are required. Turning people into money making machines, and the worst thing of all, encouraging them to accept the condition...even welcome it.

But the freedom to enjoy the human feelings which we all have deep within us.
Time to enjoy the beauty around us. Time to use our minds in discussion, the satisfaction of sharing ideas.
The opportunity for women to bear and nurture children and see them grow into adults healthy in mind and body, not the parodies of today whose lives are ruled by the urge to succeed or the losers prize, drug addiction.

It seems to me that we have gone just that little bit too far down the Capitalist road to stage a recovery and that we need some great disaster either natural or more likely engineered by humanity to turn the clock back a few thousand years.

All the left "isms" depend on our willingness to sacrifice our one chance of life on this beautiful planet to the common good in some idealised never never land.

IMO humanity can only gain happiness and personal freedom in so called primitive societies where money and power are not factors in how life is lived.

Think small...organise less...you have everything you need...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:16 PM

"...it will be organized democratically, i.e. open and accountable,..."

there's a lot of 'what ifs' embedded in that "will be"...

Call me a pessimist, but I see **ANY** accounting/managing system as corruptable. Except in small societal groups, where everyone can see most of the 'goods', diverting of them will likely be rampant.

In today's global economy, there are just too many variables to monitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:08 PM

"In society without private property there will no advantage in accumulating goods, because they are available free to everyone."


                  Yeah, but it only takes one Rupert Murdoch, or one Ronald Reagan to screw everything up.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:03 PM

Weelittledrummer, had a laugh at 'Ian Campbell(another Brummy folk singer)'.
Next time I'm having a pint with him I'll mention that. His answer's sure to be unprintable. :-D
No offence to Brummies; I've known many, one so well that we've been married for thirty-odd years.
(BTW, the best Brummy folksinger I've ever heard was Bill Alldrick.)
Ythanside

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:28 PM

It is really very simple to adjust actual supply to actual demand. You follow the amount of goods and services utilised and compare it the amount of goods and services produced.

If there isn't enough of a product you find a way to deal with the shortage and communicate back to the producers to up production if at all possible.

There will be no room for corruption because it will be organized democratically, i.e. open and accountable, everyone with equal say. In society without private property there will no advantage in accumulating goods, because they are available free to everyone.

There will be no need for cops because most crime is private property related, the rest we could deal with ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:37 PM

Easily done, Bill. Just put me and my dog in charge of everything. ;-) I make the decisions, he handles security.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:37 PM

and of course in 1990 he wasn't former was he? Brain's going I fear, hope it's not those hamburgers..........

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM

"Under capitalism, men exploit other men. Under communism, it's just the reverse."

I see why socialism seems sensible and fair, but I do not believe for a moment that it could be made to work on any large scale.
In order to monitor and administer such things as the distribution of good & services, someone would have to BE the monitors, and greed & corruption would sneak in....and even more so in police functions. "Your fair share is bigger/better/prettier/tastier than my fair share."

I suspect that the only truly workable society for everyone would be some version of BENEVOLENT DESPOTISM, and I can't imagine how to set one up.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:34 PM

Should have read 'Agricuture minister.....'

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:26 PM

Actually Peace, the British Government didn't quite do nothing, they persuaded a former Agriculture to feed his young daughter a hamburger in front of the TV cameras to demonstrate how safe it was.
She's going to be really pissed off with him if she develops Human CJD.   See below

Independent ... Tuesday 8 December 1998

The former minister who fed his six-year-old daughter a hamburger to promote a government line that "beef is safe" expressed no regret yesterday, saying that he was not then aware of any health risks from eating cattle offal.

John Gummer, who held office at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Maff) from September 1985 to May 1993 - including a promotion in 1989 - told the BSE inquiry yesterday that in 1990 he had not heard any scientific evidence to back a ban on offal such as the spinal cord and gut. "In matters as important as these it is essential to have a personal benchmark to be applied to decisions wherever appropriate. In such circumstances I applied the test, 'Would I be entirely happy for my children to eat this?'" Mr Gummer said.

So in 1990 he posed for photographers at an agricultural fair, pressing a hot burger on his daughter Cordelia.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM

I'd like to answer McGrath of Harlow.
The infant Soviet Republic had to cope first of all with the ravages of the War which had led to 20 million war dead and the ruination of the economy.
Secondly was the right wing "White armies which were deeply anti semitic and determined to wipe out the Revolution ..and indeed they tried their best.Their leaders were intent on revenge and retribution on a draconian scale and if they had succeeded the word for fascism would have been a Russian one.
Thirdly there were something like 13 foreign armies and navies including the Us and Uk military which invaded the Soviet Union to strangle it at birth.
The result was a collapse of the Russian economy,starvation and a collapse in living standards.
The Bolshevik Party itself was decimated of its older members who were killed in the civil war and the influx of new members often contained large numbers of opportunists and chancers.The Russian working class almost ceased to exist asa class as workers were forced to look for food in the countryside and workers were pitted against peasants etc
Lenin himself who had been shot and gravely wounded was to warn from his sick bed about the danger posed by Stalin but it was the failure of the German Revolution between 1919 and 11923 which was to lead to the return of Russian chauvinism and the scandal of Stalinism.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM

I think most left-of-center folks have flirted with communism at one time or other. The Manifesto--which I'd opine most people have never read--is a wonderful document. However, when we look at countries like North Korea and China we certainly see places that haven't read it either. Most folks have severed their ties with communism because it became a corrupt system as demonstrated so clearly in "Animal Farm". But then the difference between the dream and the reality after some years is a great chasm. We see it in democracies (I know, it's a republic in the US and a parliamentary democracy in Canada, etc) too. Many Americans on this forum have expressed concern for the Constitution, and many feel disenfranchised. Here.

From the above link:

"PURE COMMUNISM
(Communalism)
You have two cows.
Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.
   
THEORETICAL
COMMUNISM
You have two cows.
The government takes both and gives you the milk.
   
APPLIED
COMMUNISM
You have two cows.
You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.
You wait in line for hours to get it. It is expensive and sour.
   
CAMBODIAN
COMMUNISM
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you."

The site has cogent remarks about democracy, too.

" PURE
DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors vote to decide who gets the milk.
   
REPRESENTATIVE
DEMOCRACY
You have two cows.
Your neighbors vote for someone to tell you who gets the milk.
   
AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY
The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it.
After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures.
The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".
   
BRITISH
DEMOCRACY
You have two cows.
You feed them sheep brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything."

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:57 PM

My mother-in-law's parents were among the countless number of innocent people slaughtered by the Bolsheviks for the crime of owning a flour mill.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:54 PM

They all looked good in a cap.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM

The ease with which leading figures in the Soviet system managed to turn overnight into rapacious oligarchic capitalists is a fair indication of the shallowness of the system's "socialism".

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:44 PM

I dont think many people realise the high esteem the Revolution, led by Lenin and the Bolsheviks , had among many sections of working class people across the world in the months and years following 1917.
It was the Bolsheviks who had opposed the slaughter of the trenches while the social democratic and right wing parties had supported the warand the slaughter.
It was the Bolshevik Party which had overthrown the rotten and corrupt ruling class of Russia which had wanted to continue to send millions of Russians to the front often without arms or weapons or even boots.
It was the Bolsheviks who had defended the Revolution against the invading armies of the West in the months and years following 1917.
It was the Bolsheviks who appered for a brief period to offer fundamental change to millions of ordinary and poor people world wide.

This is why millions across the world including many cultural and artistic people supported the Revolution to a greater or lesser extent.
The Revolution was choked and eventually strangled by Stalin as it failed to spread to the West....Stalin was to kill or imprison all the leaders of 1917 including the great champion of the Revolution ..Trotsky.
Many of the cultural figures were supporters of the official communist line but failed to recognise that the Revolution had been replaced by a form of counter revolution by the late 1920s....and Trotsky's fight against Stalin was a lonely and unequal one right up to his assassination in 1940.
A lotta continua!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

The Star Club (The Communist Club) in the 1970's on the Ringway in Brum had a folk club attached with very tradddy outlook and lots of Irish guys used to hang out there. Mick Hikpkess of drowsy Maggie - the late Dave Philips - Tommy Dempsey and of course the late Aiden Ford and his brother.

Ian Campbell (another Brummy folksinger) had been a communist party member and he told me that MI5 or someone similar used to tap his phone.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:02 PM

I can't imagine Luke Kelly as a member of the Communist Party. He did stay with an Irish teacher, Sean Mulready, in Birmingham, who became a member of the Communist Party (though he later resigned). Many of Mulready's relatives and friends were musicians or married to musicians and there was quite a connection between left-wingers and musicians in those days, also back in Dublin where musos, lefties, radicals, etc., would hang around the same drinking holes--Donoghue's, McDaids, Grogans, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

Stigweard, your earlier analysis of capitalism is spot on. I see no reason, however, why democratic control shouldn't improve the production and distribution of goods and services over the present system.

Instead of production for profit we could have production to meets actual human needs, rather than the effective demand of the market system. This system renders a large portion of the world without basic needs of food, clothes, shelter and medical care. The fundamental priority for production in capitalism is profit and this is why attempts to tame capitalism fail to cure the fundamental problems in society, such as the ones you describe and a whole lot more.

Greed is not a factor, it is a behaviour and like aspiring to become the thin, rich, perfect mannequins, it is mainly determined by social experience. In a society of apparent shortage (but potential plenty) it is no wonder people grab as much as they can given the opportunity. One could equally say that people are not greedy enough in capitalism, why do we let bosses profit so much from our labour?

With democratically-controlled production and free access to goods and services society would be in a position to consider the non-market costs of production, such as pollution, and take action. The current system of production means there are vested interests keeping the costs 'externalised', i.e. not paying for them. Hence the resistance from the most capitalists to environmental regulations that can damage their profits.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:40 AM

"If people in the U.S. think they are free..."

Dewey...nobody in any modern state is free. Not anywhere. We are all under the hand of some Big Brother. We all put up with many unpleasant restrictions on our freedom. The only thing you are absolutely free to do is think your own thoughts, because no one else knows what they are! (unless you offer to openly tell them...if so, be prepared for some more attacks on your freedom)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:35 AM

I think the bit of Penguin Egg's omelette that got up people's noise was "We do not live under a totalitarian nightmare that they envisaged."

There is no justification for the suggestion that the people mentioned envisaged (or in the case of Dick Gaughan, envisage) any kind of "totalitarian nightmare". People across the Atlantic sometimes refer to Britain's "socialised medicine" with shock and horror. That's much the same fallacy as Penguin Eggs falls into.

The kind of "communist society" envisaged by the aforementioned was one been very much akin to the National Health Service - less than perfect, a bit over-bureaucratised, but basically pretty fair, and in a lot of ways far better than most of the alternatives on offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:12 AM

"I should mention that I respect the above mentioned as both men and artists, but their politics was just wrong and bad and if their dream had come true, Britain and Ireland would have become Soviet style police states with a secret police, show trials, censorship, and with a complete absence of free speech and democracy"

You're confusing totalitarianism with communism - supposed communist states don't have the monopoly on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM

OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Dewey
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM

Just had to say that! But don't wish to waste anymore time at MC. Not looking for any discussions here. thank you for NOT responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Dewey
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:37 AM

Social Workers.

Those one-sided, judgemental, meddling, screw with your life all day long to get the one thing that THEY want regardless of the price, inconvenience, hardship and abuse it may cause the recipient.

My parents have (for insurance processing reasons) now been temporarily forced to kiss their governmental autocratic rear-ends, to receive financial assistance with medical related issues and home care.

These are meddling "WE" vs. "YOU" bastards, They solve one problem for the victim they profess to "help", and create twenty more issues in that person's life.

One must be their slave and pupit to fulfil their exclusive one-sided, "we don't need your input" dictatorial agendas. Just jump for "US" and kiss our rear-end, then WE will give you whatever it is "WE" decide "YOU" deserve.

If people in the U.S. think they are free. Simply run out of health insurance and be introduced to one of these bastards. Social workers will keep a citizen alive, but will not begin to respect one's independence and or self-abilities. One becomes a piece of meat and a problem to be reckoned with for the sake of the community and the greater whole of the government itself.

If I ever had to deal with one of these social workers myself due to old age and/or any other unfortunate disadvantage, I'd sooner take Jimmie Rodgers advice and:

"Drink muddy water, and sleep in a hollow log"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:04 AM

50% of any particular one of these?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM

'We should hold these ex-communists to account for their views'
Does that law include 'ex-left-wing social democrats' like yourself, or does apostasy rule OK in your own case only?
Peguin Egg, your postings don't do your views any favours; you just come across as half boiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:03 AM

It seems that some people are not that happy with my comments on Luke Kelly, Ewan Macoll, A.L.Loyd, Dick Gaughan and others as being paid up members of the Communist Party. Well, they were. They looked, for the most part, to the Soviet Union for inspiration. In the same way we do not allow the Daily Mail (a right wing popular newspaper in Britain) to forget that they supported the Nazis in Germany during the 30s, we should hold these ex-communists to account for their views, as well.

I should mention that I respect the above mentioned as both men and artists, but their politics was just wrong and bad and if their dream had come true, Britain and Ireland would have become Soviet style police states with a secret police, show trials, censorship, and with a complete absence of free speech and democracy. The economy which would have become stagnant and would have made the late 70s look like an economic powerhouse on a par with Japan, by comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:55 AM

As I get older I become more and more distrustful of political ideologies. These are often highly inadequate models of reality which their adherents attempt to force fit to the real world - often with disastrous consequences. The most extreme example is the mass-murder of millions of people by the Nazis and the Soviet Union.

Most recently adherence to particular ideologies has led to the degradation of the environment. To both old-style Soviet Communists and contemporary Free-Market Capitalists the environment was/is irrelevant (not included in the model), resources are infinite and can go on being exploited indefinitely and human populations can go on rising forever. I'm afraid we're on the brink of finding out just how stupid this world-view really is.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:53 AM

Some interesting responces. I, myself, use top be a left wing social democrat - union representatives on the board, redistribution of wealth through progressive taxation, and (don't laugh), the House of Lords to be abolished and to be replaced by the Trades Union Congress. However, let's be frank.... the left has taken an ideological battering in the last 25 years, especially with the collapse of the communist block, from which it is struggling to recover. Socialist ideas have been superceded by single issue causes, ecology, and multi-culturalism. Working class politics is dead in the water. Those who fail to see it, fail to see it because they do not wish to see it. There is none so blind as those who wish to be blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:33 AM

I did say the 'politics' of envy, socialism as a doctrine does not equate with socialism as a political raison d'etre. It is in it's own way as much pie in the sky as real communism.
I mean New Labour calls its self a Socialist party, yet under their benevolent [to some] rule, the rich have just got richer. Our next PM is the man who abolished CGT for instance, and also removed the top rate of income tax.
Sorry but the sight of union leaders driving round in Jaguars, and cemetery workers in Liverpool refusing to bury the dead in order to get an inflation busting 9% pay rise, makes me very cynical about socialism. It appears to be something to which many so called socialists only pay lip service, while lining their pockets at our expense.
Give me an honest crook any day of the week.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Ythanside
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:22 AM

Well, John, everyone's allowed their point of view, but I have to say I was surprised by the 'socialism is the politics of envy' statement. I have always equated socialism with compassion, fairness and basic human decency, an awareness that the vulnerable need protection from the predatory, and that all of society benefits when we look out for each other. Make money, by all means, but don't allow yourself to become embittered by having to pay the resulting taxes. If you know of a fairer system, do tell us.
Ythanside

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:07 AM

"Socialism is the politics of envy, whereby the people who produce the wealth are despised by those who don't have the talent to do the same, as a result of their productivity they are often penalised by high taxation."

Aw heck Giok, whilst I respect your right to hold a (equally valid) personal opinion, I can't let that one slide. This comment betrays a degree of snobbery - the idea the vast majority of people are talentless drones who should allow themselves to be exploited by the bright shining lights of capitalism - deserving victims of their own lack of equality. It implies the only worthwhile work a citizen can do is that which contributes to the free market - so excluding health workers, carers etc.

Socialism represents the politics of justice - a system whereby a society can look after it's weakest members and make sure everyone, irrespective of personal wealth or accident of birth will enjoy basic standards of living and state-administered healthcare without the intervention of free-market economics. It is a fair system that encourages social responsibilty and ensures cohesion within individual communities, whilst retaining the idea of a tolerent, integrated society on a wider level.

The free market simply doesn't supply this. I'm a sole trader (and socialist!), I work bloody hard to contribute to my local economy, pay my taxes without trying to dodge them - this means I probably pay more tax that (for example) Phillip Green, uber-capitialist who lives in this country (as well as Monaco), makes plenty of money from it's citizens yet personally pays possibly less tax than me because his team of expensive accountants use loopholes to ensure he pays as little as possible, and thus he avoids his social responsibility to pay taxes for the benefit of our society.

Consumerism, the social face of capitialism, represents the true politics of envy - creating a marlet where we all aspire to become the thin, rich, perfect mannequins that are lauded as role models by a media that needs to secure advertising to function. Consumerism instills a degree of status anxienty into the populace based on the premise that to success is only measure in material wealth or personal beauty. It attempts to sell us things we don't need by making us insecure about our place in the social order - you're only a success if you have an expensive car, Sky + and a mortgage. You must be thin, of immaculate, ageless appearance or else hey - you're not worth it!

Whilst we need a degree of capitalism to function economically (as much as I'd like the communitst utopia to exist I agree with Giok's assertion that greed is always a factor), letting the free market dictate how the public sector functions is a recipe for disaster. When Thatcher instigated the selling of of the UK's social housing stock she germinated the crisis facing young people and many public (and increasingly private) sector workers today - a lack of affordable housing driving honest working people into potentially disasterous mortgage agreements simply for profit. At best this was a naive and short-sighted policy, at worst it was deliberate exploitation of a shared resource. Either way, it illustrates the failure of capitalism when dealing with public welfare issues.

I suppose it comes down to accountability. Capitalism takes way any degree of social responsibility because it only seeks to benefit those with a vested interest in profit - the shareholders or the board. Unelected, faceless and unknowable individuals pursing their own agendas. Socialism relies on accoutability - with elected representatives of the people administering the system and ensuring the civil service remains in the service of society, working for it's common good - true democaracy working from local to national level for the benefit of all.

And that has to be an ideology worth striving for - because we are ALL worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:18 AM

No Ythanside, I wouldn't read a Murdoch newspaper or watch his TV channel if you paid me. I very rarely watch TV news, and when I do it is either BBC1 or BBC 24.
I am capable of forming my own opinions, and I would expect you to do unto me as I would unto you, and to respect my point of view.
I don't ask you to agree with it, merely to note that there are other points of view, and all points of view have the same validity!
I expect if you are a 'true socialist' you will now go on strike until I retract my statement!
That last sentence WAS by the way, a wee joke ¦¬]

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone still a socialist/communist?
From: Piers
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:14 AM

Hello Petr and all -

"socialism - from Marxs definition was a step toward communism.."

This is incorrect - this was Lenin's view, not Marx. Marx did state that where capitalism wasn't developed, such as Russia at his time of writing, there would need to be a higher and lower phase of communism but he nowhere referred to either as socialism or communism. This distinction is irrelevant now as capitalism dominates almost every corner of the world.

Let's define capitalism:

Capitalism. A system of society based on the class monopoly of the means of production and distribution, it has the following six essential characteristics:
- Generalised commodity production, nearly all wealth being produced for sale on a market.
- The investment of capital in production with a view to obtaining a monetary profit.
- The exploitation of wage labour, the source of profit being the unpaid labour of the producers.
- The regulation of production by the market via a competitive struggle for profits.
- The accumulation of capital out of profits, leading to the expansion and development of the forces of production. A single world economy.

To define socialism we need a definition that opposes the essential characteristics of capitalism, otherwise we are defining a form of capitalism.

Thus, welfare-states, nationalised health services, "progressive" taxation, are part of capitalism.

The definition I gave above is the most robust definition because it opposes capitalism, and opposes the contradictions of the various other 'socialisms' that have been proposed. Socialism as a moneyless, stateless, classless society is the only way to have a society where democracy, creativity, ingenuity and humanity can flourish.