BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

Anyone got jujubes?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM

Israeli textbooks show all of occupied Palestine as being part of Israel...

http://newjewisheducation.blogspot.com/2006/12/israeli-textbooks-green-line-and-yuli.html

Israel expects the Palestinians to recognize borders that Israeli itself does not recognize.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

I can point anyone to numerous posts from me in which I have said that Jews who left other countries in the Middle East should be allowed to return to their countries of origin if they want to. But I will let others do their own work and find them on their own. They're there. I haven't pressed for compensation for those Jews, but neither am I pressing for compensation for the Palestinians.

As we can see, others are allowed to make personal attacks on me, but since I am not allowed to respond to them, that is all I can say at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:19 AM

"In Palestinian text books dealing with Islamic studies - concepts such as Jihad and martyrdom are presented in contexts that suggest being supportive and encouraging young people to admire both the concept of suicide bombing aimed at killing Israelis, as well as to consider the possibility of becoming suicide bombers themselves. . . .

It should be mentioned, that in our view, some of the [international and Israeli] reports and some of the motivation for writing the reports were part of the anti-Palestinian propaganda campaign waged by various right-wing Israeli and pro-Israeli groups, nevertheless, the substantive critiques with quotations and hard evidence cannot and should not be ignored by the Palestinian Authority as a mere anti-Palestinian propaganda campaign . (Emphasis added.)


The document goes into greater detail about these and additional problems in the sections called "Palestine," "Dealing with the 'Other,'" "Dealing with Islamic Texts and Concepts," and "Dealing with Jerusalem."

In addition, this report dispels the common propaganda repeated by Avenstrup that "the original allegations [of incitement] were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks." As the IPCRI report correctly notes:


With the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994, the Palestinians took charge of the educational system, inheriting outdated text books, (Jordanian in the West Bank and Egyptian in Gaza) that had been modified by the Israeli Military Government's education department. The modifications to the text books by Israel concerned the removal of anti-Israel or anti-Jewish content that may have existed in the texts.

The new Palestinian Ministry of Education immediately reverted back to using non-Israeli-modified text books and at the same time launched a process of preparing a new Palestinian curriculum."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:48 AM

For any fellow Brits out there who have a vague feeling that CAMERA may be something to do with real ale be aware they have launched a 'British Project' aimed at the 'problematic Middle East coverage' of the BBC and aiming to 'deal' with targeted media like The Guardian* and the Tndependent.

* Ian Mayes. president of the Organisation of News Ombudsmen, commenting on complaints against The Guardian's Jerusalem correspondent, Rory McCarthy, concluded that 'to question him further would be to collude in the harassment of a journalist trying to report accurately in a very difficult situation.'
from The readers' editor on ... a ruling in favour of freedom of expression


CAMERA have already accused Israel's leading newspaper, Haaretz, of distortions and falsehoods about Israel and asserted that National Public Radio's "coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict has long been marred by a striking anti-Israel tilt, with severe bias, error and lack of balance commonplace."

CAMERA supported a boycott against NPR, and demanded the firing of NPR's foreign editor, Loren Jenkins it has lobbied NPR's supporters to withhold funds.

The Boston-based public radio station WBUR, which relies on private donations, corporate sponsorship and some government funding for its operating budget, reports losing one million dollars so far in cancelled funding since the campaign began — seven per cent of its annual financial support.

Washington Post ombudsman Michael Getler, who like others with his title, is charged with assessing the fairness and accuracy of his newspaper's coverage posed the question

"Is it possible that so many major American news organisations are getting this story wrong — that some sort of national media conspiracy is at work here?
That, of course, is not the case, and news organisations will persevere in reporting this story in an unflinching, unintimidated fashion that reports the news in the most accurate way possible for their entire readership," he wrote.

One prominent detractor, Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of the San Francisco-based Tikkun magazine, who was accused by CAMERA of "being guilty of "demonstrably false and baseless defaming of Israel, wildly distorted out of context accusations against Israel." said the pressure campaigns are a form of "McCarthyism that is attempting to prevent the American media from telling any part of the story from the perspective of what is happening to Palestinians."

"In the long run this will produce more anti-Semitism and less security for Jews," Lerner said. "This is counterproductive."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:47 PM

btw before y'all read articles from Camera maybe a little more should be known about that 'source'

Commentary and critiques

In a 2003 profile of the organization in the The Boston Globe , Mark Jurkowitz observed:
"To its supporters, CAMERA is figuratively - and perhaps literally - doing God's work, battling insidious anti-Israeli bias in the media. But its detractors see CAMERA as a myopic and vindictive special interest group trying to muscle its views into media coverage."

The group has been criticized as not seeking accuracy in reporting but rather engaging in censorship and fighting for a pro-Israeli bias:

Mitchell Kaidy, writing in the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, criticized CAMERA's efforts to pressure university libraries to remove books that the organization finds offensive.

Journalist and author Robert I. Friedman wrote in 1987 that "CAMERA, the A.D.L., AIPAC and the rest of the lobby don't want fairness, but bias in their favor. And they are prepared to use McCarthyite tactics, as well as the power and money of pro-Israel PACs, to get whatever Israel wants."

Writing about criticisms from CAMERA he and his colleagues have received, Jerusalem-based journalist Gershom Gorenberg wrote " It is not the press's job to provide PR for any government. Until CAMERA gets this straight, self-respecting journalists will regard an occasional snarl from the watchdog as proof that they're doing their job."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:15 PM

Peace I gave the source of the quotes in order that people may read the whole article.

Here is another you may wish to read in its entirity

THE POLITICS OF PALESTINIAN TEXTBOOKS

This article analyzes the attempt by extremist Israeli groups to frame the issue of content in Palestinian textbooks in a manner that is consistent with their overall political agenda of discrediting the Palestinian Authority. It suggests an alternative way of examining the content of these texts on the basis of established professional literature in the field of education. It also explores the Israeli and Palestinian debates about what historical narratives should be included in textbooks and what images of the "Other" these texts need to present.

......The research that Ruth Firer (Truman Institute) and her Palestinian co-researcher Sami Adwan (Bethlehem University) carried out as part of a peace education project sponsored by the Truman Institute suggests ways of framing the issues in school textbooks. Firer and Adwan question whether either Palestinian or Israeli textbooks prepare students to accept values of peace, openness, human rights

Firer finds, among other things, that Palestinians had not been "granted any identity as a nation in Israeli textbooks until after the 1973 war."
Prior to that, the Palestinians were viewed as "a mob who were incited by corrupt politicians against their own good." The predominant emphasis in Israeli textbooks gives priority to the "historical and political rights of the Jews in 'Eretz Israel'" (referring to all of historic Palestine, including the territories occupied by Israel in June 1967).
All the Israeli school texts continue to present Israelis as peace loving and Arabs as terrorists who prefer war.
In order to change old and fixed attitudes and to help ensure a lasting peace, suggests Firer, both Israeli and Arab educational systems must drastically revise humanistic education as well as school climate. In other words, they must move away from a "culture of war," where each side demonizes the other, to a "culture of peace," where a more empathetic image begins to emerge.'


I don't think the folks at CAMERA (The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) a pro-Israeli organization founded in 1982 to respond to perceived anti-Israel bias in The Washington Post will be too happy about that article either despite the final plea for -

'conflict reconciliation, as opposed to conflict resolution or conflict settlement'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:07 PM

'The General Secretariat of the Council of the European Union stated in May 2002:



"New textbooks…are free of inciteful content…constituting a valuable contribution to the education of young Palestinians.



"Allegations against the new textbooks funded by EU members have proven unfounded."'


Thus demonstrating that the textbooks were prior to that inciteful.Prof what'sisname seems to have conveniently overlooked those books in his 'study'.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:49 PM

Selective quoting. Here's the whole article.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:35 PM

"They did that in a study sponsored by Hebrew University's Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, and by the United States Institute of Peace and UNESCO'"

Anyone know how to get to that study?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:30 PM

'Ruth Firer of the Harry S. Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Sami Adwan, a professor of education at Bethlehem University in Bethlehem compared Palestinian and Israeli textbooks in 2002.

Of the Palestinian textbooks they found that "The books portray Jews throughout history in a positive manner and avoid negative stereotypes.
However, according to the everyday experience of Palestinians, modern-day Israelis are presented as occupiers. The texts include examples of Israelis killing and imprisoning Palestinians, demolishing their homes, uprooting fruit trees, and confiscating their lands and building settlements on them. The texts also talk about the right of return for the 1948 Palestinian refugees when describing how those refugees live in camps."

The Israeli textbooks, on the other hand don't even mention Palestinians "The Palestinians, as such, are not found in any of the three types of primary-level textbooks.

" Disputed territory is presented as being part of Israel: "Many of the chapters describe "the good land," sometimes called "our birthplace" or "homeland" ("moledet" in Hebrew), and include photos of places that are in the PNA or are in dispute between the two nations (i.e., East Jerusalem). They are presented without the national-political debate, and as naturally belonging to the Israeli state."

Their 2004 study of 13 Israeli textbooks and 9 Palestinian textbooks found that "neither side's books tell the story of the conflict from the other's viewpoint, both ignore the other side's suffering and each counts only its only victims."


The George Eckert Institute for International Textbook Research compared Palestinian and Israeli textbooks in December 2002. According to Jonathan Kriener of the institute, "The crucial difference between both sets of textbooks lies in the overall unanimity of the Palestinian textbooks versus a broad spectrum of different approaches in Israel, ranging from Ultra-orthodox school books, in which 'Language is used that conveys an air of superiority and negative expressions …' and in which 'The map of Israel always includes all of the territory between the Mediterranean Sea and the River Jordan.' to books in which highly controversial political issues are discussed quite openly.
Although manifesting itself in different ways, the influence of fundamentalist religious movements is growing on both sides, and is likely to continue to do so while the conflict remains unresolved'

From Wiki

One final report from The Jewish News Weekly of Northern Califonia

"Where do persistent reports of incitement in Palestinian textbooks come from?" asks Nathan Brown, a Jewish professor of political science at George Washington University.

"Virtually all can be traced back to the work of a single organization, the 'Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace,'" founded by Israeli Itamar Marcus. Those involved "rely on misleading and tendentious reports to support their claim of incitement," writes Brown, in a 2001 report delivered at Israel's Adam Institute for Democracy and Peace.....

....in response to pressure from Congress to investigate, the U.S. government commissioned the Israel-Palestine Center for Research and Information to convene a team of professional educators — Israeli, Palestinian and American. Their 2003 report concluded: "While there are many areas for improvement in the Palestinian textbooks, it can be said that these new textbooks do not incite against Israel or against peace."

Professor Ruth Firer of Hebrew University and Palestinian Professor Sami Adwan of Bethlehem University also decided "it is important to compare the Israeli and Palestinian textbooks to each other, rather than to look at only one set by itself, in order to get a complete picture of the role they play in peace education, or the opposite." They did that in a study sponsored by Hebrew University's Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, and by the United States Institute of Peace and UNESCO'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:07 PM

Articles y'all might wanna read.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:05 PM

"Report: Palestinian textbooks portray Jews badly
By DIAA HADID – 53 minutes ago

JERUSALEM (AP) — Authors of Palestinian school textbooks took small steps toward softening their portrayal Israel under the rule of moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas — but progress was quickly reversed after the militant Islamic Hamas took over, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The report by the Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education and by the American Jewish Committee looked at 120 textbooks published from 2000 to 2006.

The report reflects charges by Israelis that Palestinian textbooks are not in keeping with a peace process that started in 1993. Palestinians counter that Jewish Israeli students are not taught about Palestinian suffering.

Arnon Groiss, author of the report, said most of the textbooks from grade one to 10, issued under the late Yasser Arafat's rule, don't acknowledge any historical Jewish presence in ancient Palestine.

But in 11th grade books issued under the moderate Abbas, there are two maps showing Israel within the "Green Line" — the cease-fire line before the 1967 war, when Israel captured east Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The textbooks issued under Abbas' rule also include a discussion of Jewish history in the region, the report said.

However, in 2006, the militant Islamic Hamas won an election and issued a 12th grade textbook that dramatically reversed those steps, the report said.

Mixed with anti-Semitic sentiments in the textbooks are genuine Palestinian complaints against Israel, including settlement building in areas Palestinians want for their future state, and the Israeli separation barrier, which swallows swathes of West Bank land.

Jamal Zakkout, spokesman for Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, said Palestinian textbooks should emphasize connection to the land and "a call for tolerance."

However, Zakkout said the main cause of Palestinian ill will toward Israel is not textbooks, but Israel's many checkpoints in the West Bank, the separation barrier and military operations in Palestinian towns.

Hamas officials were not available for comment Tuesday."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

I have not read
Arnon Groiss, author of the report, "Palestinian Textbooks: From Arafat to Abbas and Hamas", but I find it hard to believe a book like this would be baseless and bogus. He must provide some concrete examples. I'll have to look into it.

I AM skeptical about your post Emma that states "Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM

A rebuttal to the Avenstrup article.

"If you have a Ph. D. after your name, manifest a fashionable anti-Sharon and anti-Bush stance, and mention a few obscure reports from a few obscure think tanks, there is a good chance you will be able to print absolute non-sense in The International Herald Tribune.

Take a look Roger Avenstrup's December 18 column in the International Herald Tribune "Palestinian textbooks: Where is all that 'incitement '?"

It has been eagerly cited in anti-Zionists blogs and websites. And will be read by many more. Few who read the Avesntrup's opinion piece will bother to check out the sources he cites.

According to Avenstrup each and every analysis of Palestinian textbooks by research institutes have given them a clean bill of health In reality, the studies of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information have been quite critical. The 2004 report, for instance, says of the Palestinian textbooks "... it is not difficult to come to the understanding that the main political theme imparted to the students is that Israel should not exist and that is essentially the Palestinian goal. Assuming that this is not the political message that the Palestinian Authority adheres to, there is a need to make real revisions and amendments in the Palestinian text books."

Avenstrup is, of course, free to disagree with the conclusions on the IPCRI. Instead he blatantly misrepresents their studies."

from

newappeal.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_archive.html

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:55 PM

Well I have been accused of 'finding and posting opinions that support your position, and using inflammatory terminology'

I make no apology for the 'cut and paste' these are not just my 'opinions' but information from legitimate and respected sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

Well said Emma. Good post. Such a contrast from reading the senseless ranting from Looney Tunes Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:10 PM

no 'excuses'...... maybe some 'facts'

'JERUSALEM: Palestinian textbooks contain incitement to hatred of Israel, right? Both President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton have said so. Zionist groups constantly lobby European foreign ministries to stop support for Palestinian textbooks on that basis

Detailed analyses of the textbooks have been done by research institutes. The U.S. Consulate General in Jerusalem commissioned studies from the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI), and in Europe the Georg Eckert Institute facilitated research. Research papers have also been published in international fora such as the Hebrew University's Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, and presented at the Oslo Coalition on Freedom of Religion or Belief.

At the political level, a U.S. Senate subcommittee on Palestinian education and the Political Committee of the European Parliament have both held hearings on the matter. No country's textbooks have been subjected to as much close scrutiny as the Palestinian.

The findings? It turns out that the original allegations were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks and incorrect translations. Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.'

Roger Avenstrup (an international education consultant who has worked in various countries in conflict and post-conflict situations)
writing in The International Herald Tribune

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:05 PM

Well, no doubt folks will be along soon enough to excuse that, Arnie.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

Arnon Groiss, author of the report, "Palestinian Textbooks: From Arafat to Abbas and Hamas" said most of the textbooks from grade one to 10, issued under the late Yasser Arafat's rule, did not acknowledge any historical Jewish presence in ancient Palestine, nor does modern-day Israel appear on maps. Jews are vilified as schemers and killers.

But in grade 11 books issued under Abbas, there are two maps showing Israel within the so-called "green line" - the cease-fire line before the 1967 war, when Israel captured east Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The textbooks issued under Abbas' rule also include a discussion of Jewish history in the region, the report said.

However, in 2006, the Islamist Hamas came to power and issued a grade 12 textbook that dramatically reversed those steps. Jews are likened to snakes, and fighting for the sake of Palestine is praised effusively.

Mixed with anti-Semitic sentiments in the textbooks are genuine Palestinian complaints against Israel, including settlement building in areas Palestinians want for their future state, and the Israeli separation barrier, which often significantly deviates from the "green line."

"Palestinian grievances are legitimate - they were harshly hurt by Israel," said Groiss. "But if (Jewish Israelis) are only presented through that prism, that's wrong. We can't see any balance," he said.

Jamal Zakkout, spokesman for Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, said Palestinian textbooks should emphasize connection to the land "and a call for tolerance."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:53 AM

Ah, I see Guest Zack you can't read, that would explain a great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:51 PM

Teribus where are you getting your muddled information from ? No sources, no proof and total trash.

Man let this one go please. These two ladies have bundled you into a corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:32 PM

The posts about the Gaza closure to weaken Hamas backfiring is exactly what the U.S. State dept. is saying right now to Israel. Also Olmert was talking tough today, and Carole may be right about the situation perhaps getting worse soon - militarily speaking in Gaza.

Talking tough today again the the president of Iran who said in a speech : "criminal and terrorist Zionist regime" with a track record of 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes ... has reached the end ... and will soon disappear from the geographical" charts.

There is a lot of dangerous and confrontation talk going on today. Scary!

My opinion - It's so complicated a situation - but I believe the Palestinian State issue should have been dealt with seriously 30 years ago. The Israeli government has let it fester too long and we now have a new young generation of Palestinians thave has grown up completely in despair and they know nothing but misery and confrontation. What a mess!

Here is today's article:
Israel's continued blockade of the Gaza Strip is misguided and has helped rather than harmed Hamas, a senior State Department official told The Jerusalem Post on Monday.

Olmert meets with Abbas in Jerusalem regarding peace negotiations and ceasefire in Gaza

The State Department is likely to convey its unhappiness regarding Israel's Gaza policy to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert when he arrives in Washington before dawn on Tuesday. His three-day visit will include a meeting with US President George W. Bush and a keynote address to the annual AIPAC policy conference.

"What we're telling the Israelis is that the policy that was adopted after the summer [of June 2007] wasn't working, of really closing the borders," said a senior State Department official.

On Monday night, Olmert said that the "hour of decision" was approaching regarding continued Palestinian rocket fire from the Gaza Strip, pledging that the attacks, which have continued unabated for seven years, will be stopped "one way or another."
RELATED

"I said in the past that I prefer the path of dialogue, but as long as all the steps we take do not lead to the hoped-for calm, we will be forced to turn to the sword," Olmert said at the official Jerusalem Day ceremony at Ammunition Hill, marking 41 years since the reunification of the capital. "We will brandish it in a heavy, sharp and painful manner."

"I say to the residents of Sderot and the Gaza envelope: My heart and thoughts are with you," he added. "You pay the ongoing price which effects your way of life, primarily that of your children. The hour of decision is approaching, after which you too will have the longed-for quiet. The threat towards you will also be removed, one way or another."

The beleaguered premier, who is facing growing calls for his ouster in the wake of the latest in a series of corruption scandals, made the remarks just hours before he left for Washington in what could be his last visit to the US capital as prime minister, and after months of on-again, off-again negotiations for an Egyptian-mediated truce with Hamas have failed to bear fruit.

Olmert arrives in Washington in the midst of a stiff diplomatic agenda that includes peace talks with Syria and a 2008 deadline to come to a final status agreement with the Palestinians. But he leaves Israel under threat of a possible indictment for money laundering that has shaken his coalition and left politicians scrambling to work toward new elections.

The senior State Department official said that Olmert's political situation was a "challenge" but that the US remains "confident that there's broad support within Israeli society for a two-state solution."

The United States, he said, was still looking for an agreement by the end of Bush's term.

The peace process, he said, "is not just the work of one person."

"We remain positive about it, despite all the obstacles and challenges," he said, indicating there are other challenges, not just Olmert's political prospects.

Israeli media on Monday speculated that this could be Olmert's last trip, with Channel 1 adding in that he had thought of canceling it.

But Olmert's spokesman Mark Regev refused to comment on the matter, stating only, "We have a lot of work on the agenda that needs to be done and we want to do that work."

Part of that work is likely to be new look at Israel's continued closure of the Gaza borders to all but humanitarian aid and basic supplies. Hamas's violent take over of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 suspended all border agreements on movement and access.

Those agreements have been hard to implement in light of Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel and given that there has been no agreed-upon body to replace Fatah, which until last summer had controlled the border crossings.

Israel has held the opinion that a blockade of Gaza would also weaken Hamas's hold on the strip.

But a senior State Department official told the Post that policy has appeared to have backfired. Palestinian rocket attacks against southern Israel have continued and Hamas is gaining strength due to popular disaffection and Hamas can still get the resources it needs.

"Within Gaza, Hamas seems the least effected by the closure," he said.

A new approach must be found that "that wouldn't benefit Hamas... but to find that new approach is very difficult because Hamas is in control."

Among the ideas US officials will kick around with Israel is a new look at the possibility of monitors and the defunct agreement on movement and access.

"You could envision Rafah being open under an agreement on movement and access with EU monitors. But all of that requires in some ways Hamas's acquiescence," he said.

He also called the idea of having some sort of international force between Israel and Gaza a "creative idea."

Regev said he imagined that Gaza would be on the agenda with the US, as well as the Egyptian brokered talks on a cease fire.

The State Department official told the Post that on the issue of a cease-fire the US would like to see a new approach. He did not elaborate.

"We don't want Israel to do anything that would make Israel feel like it put itself at jeopardy or risk," the official said.

Egypt, he said, has been playing a "constructive role," adding that Egypt has been making "more of an effort" when it comes to smuggling.

Talking tough today again the the president of Iran who said in a speech : "criminal and terrorist Zionist regime" with a track record of 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes ... has reached the end ... and will soon disappear from the geographical" charts.

There is a lot of dangerous and confrontation talk going on today.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:26 PM

"Nobody had any right to expect the Palestinians to agree to partition, and nobody had any right to withhold the right of self determination from the people who were indigenous to the area (the ones who are now calling themselves the Palestinians), or to displace them from their homes and villages and the land of their origin." - CarolC

Why? They, the "Palestinian" Arabs had conclusively proved to both the British (Peel Commission) and to the UN that there could be no way on earth that Arab and Israeli could live in harmony in one state (Palestine). A two state solution was offered and refused first in 1937 and again in 1947. The boundaries of the two state solution that they are fighting about now are more or less the same as were offered by the UN in 1947. Can anybody answer the fairly obvious question - If it is alright now, why wasn't it alright then? - It would have saved a great deal of suffering on both sides.

Oh yes "the people who were indigenous to the area" - I take it then CarolC that you haven't checked up on who exactly has the "right of return" - You will find that it is far more imaginative and all-encompassing than those who were indigenous to the area.

Now when it comes to you discussing those, "displaced from their homes and villages and the land of their origin" - God I can almost hear the violins - Can you refer me to any post of yours where you have pressed for the "right of return" or compensation to the 820,000 Jews and their descendants expelled from Arab lands. All of a sudden it doesn't seem so urgent a case for CarolC and her likes. As I stated in another thread - Bigotted, Biased and Hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:59 PM

"The Jews have NO RIGHT TO BE THERE."

Guest Buttocks has spoken. SO, everyone else shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

Nobody had any right to expect the Palestinians to agree to partition, and nobody had any right to withhold the right of self determination from the people who were indigenous to the area (the ones who are now calling themselves the Palestinians), or to displace them from their homes and villages and the land of their origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:26 AM

BB, just for Guest Zacks edification:

"Audie Leon Murphy, son of poor Texas sharecroppers, rose to national fame as the most decorated U.S. combat soldier of World War II. Among his 33 awards and decorations was the Medal of Honor, the highest military award for bravery that can be given to any individual in the United States of America, for "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty."

He also received every decoration for valor that his country had to offer, some of them more than once, including 5 decorations by France and Belgium. Credited with either killing over 240 of the enemy while wounding and capturing many others, he became a legend within the 3rd Infantry Division.

Beginning his service as an Army Private, Audie quickly rose to the enlisted rank of Staff Sergeant, was given a "battle field" commission as 2nd Lieutenant, was wounded three times, fought in 9 major campaigns across the European Theater, and survived the war.

During Murphy's 3 years active service as a combat soldier in World War II, Audie became one of the best fighting combat soldiers of this or any other century. What Audie accomplished during this period is most significant and probably will never be repeated by another soldier, given today's high-tech type of warfare. The U.S. Army has always declared that there will never be another Audie Murphy."

A truly remarkable man, if Guest Zack wants to liken me to Audie Murphy in an attempt to disparage me, then more fool him, I personally take the comparison for what it is - One hell of a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:15 AM

Yes 600 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:13 AM

Zach,

"posts by Teribus are a planets distance away from fact or reality"

Care to point out anything that YOU can prove not to be a fact???




As for "this modern day Audie Murphy "

Have you any idea who Audie Murphy was, or what he did?

Talk about ignorance...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:00 AM

Don't think so Guest.

Your list of unanswered questions continues to grow:

1. Isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?

2. What gives you the right to be (live) wherever you are?

3. Did the Jewish population of Hebron in 1929 have right to live there? Having been resident in that town for over 800 years? (Or were they not "Palestinian" enough for your taste, Guest Botox)

4. Is Mexico in any sort of dispute with the USA over Texas, New Mexico and California? My research into the matter convince me that they are not - where then am I incorrect in my understanding of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:34 AM

Your well of the mark on all points Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:28 AM

Just to introduce a touch of reality into your world Guest Botox

Please stop referring to that illegal phrase "Israel" - Recognised as an independent sovereign state with all rights and privileges associated with that status by the United Nations. There is nothing illegal about Israel whatsoever. You might not like it for whatever reason but your wishing it to be illegal does not make it so.

"They have no right to occupy Palestine." - Really? Where is that written Guest? I can quote at least one internationally agreed document that clearly states that they do have the right to settle in Palestine with the boundaries of Palestine being clearly described (Whole of present day Israel, the whole of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank).

Still you refuse to answer the question, I'll ask again:

"...isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?"

Simple Yes, or No would suffice.

You also ducked this one:

"What gives you the right to be wherever you are?"

Did the Jewish population of Hebron have right to live there Guest?

Just to refresh your memory they were "ethnically cleansed", well at least the ones that weren't murdered were, from the town of Hebron in Palestine in 1929 after having lived there quite peacefully for 800 years. You say that they had no right to be there?

"..as Mexico does not grant the US the 'right to exist' on half of Mexico's territory, gained by conquest"

I didn't realise that Mexico was in any sort of dispute with the USA over Texas, New Mexico and California - Or are you trying to tell us that all the illegal aliens crossing the border are in reality Mexico's equivalent of Jihadists infiltrating the US to win freedom for the people of Texas, New Mexico and California, and return those territories to Mexico. If so, I note that they at least are no so keen on "Right of return" aka "Deportation", any explanation for that Guest Botox.

"I suspect that this demand was contrived to bar the possibility of a political settlement in accord with the international consensus that the US and Jews have rejected for thirty years."

Matter of record the only people who have rejected settlements for the last 60 years have been the "Palestinian Arabs" and their backers.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

The Jewish policy (Please stop referring to that illegal phrase "Israel") of divide-and-conquer, employed to destroy the democratic government of the Palestinian Authority, they claim claim that Hamas is unacceptable as a party in government because it refuses to accept Israel's "right to exist." They have no right to occupy Palestine.

Jews are demanding that Palestinians not only recognize Jews in the normal fashion of interstate relations, but also formally accept the legitimacy of their expulsion from their own land!

They cannot be expected to accept that, just as Mexico does not grant the US the 'right to exist' on half of Mexico's territory, gained by conquest or Britain in lands they stole. I suspect that this demand was contrived to bar the possibility of a political settlement in accord with the international consensus that the US and Jews have rejected for thirty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:44 AM

Really Guest Botox?? And what precisely is the rationale behind that sweeping statement.

What gives you the right to be wherever you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:42 AM

Comes down to one very simple fact, The Jews have NO RIGHT TO BE THERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 AM

Sorry Guest Botox (Yet another one-post Guest Mushroom) what was your take on it? You forgot to answer the very simple question put:

"...isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?"

In actual fact the "Palestinians" are currently fighting and killing people in the region enthusiastically abetted by both Syria and Iran for a "Palestinian" State that is somewhat smaller than what they were offered in 1947.

Now where in the process of that Partition Plan offered in 1947 was anyone required to, "lay down, roll over and accept their new masters" - There would have been two independent states, the "Palestinians" would then surely have been masters of their own destiny.

In short from a "Palestinian" perspective it boils down to 60 years of grief and bloodshed for less than you were offered in the first place - Great leadership, great vision, what an example of good civil governance, direction and forward planning. Surely they deserve an award for the diligence they have shown in looking after the best interests of the people who were mug enough to vote for these cretins.

But then Bo/David/Albert/Zack/Hugo - go and read the respective "Charters" of Hamas and Hezbollah and take in everything stated. Neither are interested in 1947 Partition Plan offers, 1949 Armistice Boundary Agreements, pre-1967 Boundaries, or any of the other agreements struck with Israel - Their clearly stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of its people. That and that alone is the cause of the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:01 AM

Yes Teribus, We understand you now. What you really mean is that the Palestinians should have lay down, rolled over and accepted their new masters.

You seem to be looking at the situation from an Englishman's point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:16 AM

"To the zionists out there ...have you no shame?
It is the Israelis who are responsible for the overwhelming carnage and suffering going on in Gaza and the West Bank." - Guest Albert

Well for a start Guest Albert I am not a "Zionist" merely an observer with an interest in history. The question I would ask of you, and those who post here on this subject in the same vein as yourself - Have you no commonsense?

Now please correct me if I am wrong here Guest Albert but isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?

Recorded reaction to the UN Partition Plan were as follows:

"The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation.

Meeting in Cairo in November and December of 1947, the Arab League then adopted a series of resolutions aimed at a military solution to the conflict."

That being the case, plain and simple, the application of commonsense would lead to the rather obvious observation that if the "Palestinians" had accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947 then not a single person would have died. It then becomes equally obvious as to who has been responsible for the carnage and suffering that has happened in the region for the last 60 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:50 AM

To the zionists out there ...have you no shame?
It is the Israelis who are responsible for the overwhelming carnage and suffering going on in Gaza and the West Bank.
It is the Israelis who are using jet war planes,destroyers,armoured helicopters , tanks and assassination squads to murder or maim and terrorise the Palestinian people.
They have demolished thousands of Palestinian homes in their ongoing attempt to humiliateand terrorise .
And the people they are doing this to are refugees from what is now the state of Israel.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:12 AM

Hamas said that the two groups they're cracking down on have been trying to thwart Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce between the Palestinians and Israel. If they are cracking down on the two groups for this reason (and I have no reason to believe that they aren't), then I don't see a problem with their cracking down on those two groups.

If sending rockets to Israel jeopardizes Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce, and Hamas is cracking down on those groups for jeopardizing Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce, then it is perfectly accurate to say that Hamas is cracking down on those groups because they're sending rockets into Israel (as well as whatever else they're doing to jeopardize Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce).

I am not allowed to respond to personal comments, so this is all I have to say right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:52 PM

CarolC, I really don't mean to pick on you, but sometimes I think you play dense just for the fun of it. I can't apprehend you really believe some of the statements you make--to wit:

"I'm having some difficulty seeing why people would criticize Hamas for cracking down on these groups [i.e. IJ and Fatah] if they're responsible for sending rockets into Israel."

You know Hamas is not cracking down on [Fatah], as you put it, because of their firing rockets into Israel. They are cracking down on Fatah because of internecine conflict over who is going to control the Palestinian people in Gaza, and they're strong enough to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:38 PM

From one of the articles that was posted in this thread, it says that members of Islamic Jihad and Fatah militiamen were responsible for sending rockets into Israel. And it also said that Hamas was cracking down on those groups. I'm guessing they were also the ones who sent rockets into Israel during the time when Hamas was engaging in the unilateral cease fire. I'm having some difficulty seeing why people would criticize Hamas for cracking down on these groups if they're responsible for sending rockets into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:29 PM

Carole- Beyond proposing the latest ceasefire, exactly what have they done to actually stop the rocket attacks?. What's wrong with criticism of violent infighting? Is the world supposed to applaud that kind of activity or just ignore it? - Arnie, one such person as you suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:23 PM

Some people are saying that Hamas is not doing enough to stop the rocket attacks against Israel, but when Hamas does do something to try to stop the rocket attacks against Israel, the very same people criticize them for infighting and being violent towards their fellow Palestinians. I suspect that there is nothing Hamas could do that would satisfy such people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:39 PM

"The officials pointed out that Islamic Jihad last week arrested a number of Palestinians on suspicion of 'collaboration' with Israel and was planning to execute them in a public square in the coming days."

It seems that "collboration" means trying to get along and make peace. That is a dangerous course of action for most Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:40 PM

From Today's Jerusalem Post

Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip accused Islamic Jihad and Fatah militiamen over the weekend of working to thwart Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce between the Palestinians and Israel.

The officials told The Jerusalem Post that Cairo was planning to make one final effort this week to achieve a truce that would also include a prisoner exchange between Hamas and Israel.

"Egypt's efforts to achieve a cease-fire have thus far failed to produce results because of Israel's refusal to reopen the [Gaza] border crossings," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri. "Hamas has done everything to ensure the success of the Egyptian initiative, but Israel is continuing to drag its feet."

Abu Zuhri called on Gazans to prepare to "break the siege," hinting that Hamas planned to breach the border with Egypt for the second time this year.

"All the options are open and we won't allow the siege to continue," he said. "We are determined to end the siege and the world must expect great developments."

Noting the increased cooperation between Islamic Jihad and Fatah in the Gaza Strip, Hamas officials said the alliance was jeopardizing efforts to achieve a cease-fire.

"Some elements in Islamic Jihad and Fatah are trying to escalate the situation so as to embarrass the Hamas government and foil the Egyptian truce initiative," the Hamas officials said, adding that the two groups were behind the latest spate of rocket attacks on Israel. "We have warned them against their actions, but they haven't complied."

According to the officials, militiamen belonging to Islamic Jihad's armed wing, al-Quds Brigades, and the armed wing of Fatah, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, have been openly challenging Hamas and its security forces in the Gaza Strip.

The officials pointed out that Islamic Jihad last week arrested a number of Palestinians on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel and was planning to execute them in a public square in the coming days.

After repeated requests by Hamas, over the weekend Islamic Jihad finally handed over two of the alleged collaborators to Hamas's security forces, but kept the rest in custody.

For its part, Islamic Jihad accused Hamas of being behind an attempt to kidnap three of its senior operatives in the southern Gaza Strip last Friday.

The three - Raed Nassar, Iyad Kahlout and Mueen Faresm - were severely beaten by masked gunmen as they emerged from a mosque following Friday prayers in Deir el-Balah.

According to Islamic Jihad officials, the kidnap attempt was organized by members of Hamas's security forces. Following the incident, armed clashes erupted between Hamas and Islamic Jihad supporters across the Gaza Strip, they added. No casualties were reported.

Denying the allegations, Hamas said the clashes erupted as a result of an "internal dispute" in Islamic Jihad.


Unfortunately, All this infighting between Hamas & Fatah and militants is doing the Palestinian cause great harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

The problem there Emma is that by your obsessive exercise in finding and posting opinions that support your position, and by using inflammatory terminology, you demonize Israel when you know full well that the citizens of Gaza are being inhumanely used as pawns by their own elected government and that Israel would immediately stop all actions against Gaza as soon as the rocket attacks stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

JERUSALEM, June 1 -- Israeli Housing Ministry published a bid on Sunday for the construction of more than 800 apartment units in east Jerusalem.

    Israeli Housing Minister Zeev Boim has announced plans for the building of 763 'settler' housing units in Pisgat Zeev and 121 housing units at Har Homa, an area Palestinians refer to as Jabal Abu Ghneim.

    Both sites are located on lands captured by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War, and were incorporated into the municipal borders of Jerusalem in an act not recognized internationally.

    A spokesman said the new tenders were a part of steps the government was taking to "strengthen Jerusalem"
   
Israel's plan to build new apartments in disputed territory has drawn harsh criticism from the Palestinian side and the international community, including Israel's ally, the United States.

    The U.S. side said such construction is unconducive to peace efforts.

    "You know we, of course, respect the Americans and we always want to work in cooperation with them, but when it comes to Jerusalem it is our decision where to build and when to build," said Israeli spokesman Arieh Mekel.

Doesn't really help does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM

John, with the exception of Teribus (whose hate fueled invective of 31 May 08 - 06:52 PM I prefer to treat with the contempt it deserves) I suspect there is much more agreement on this thread than would appear obvious.

My aim has been not to 'support' the democratically elected government of Hamas but to remind people that it was, in fact, democratically elected by a people who have very little left to lose and to lift the 'veil of silence' about conditions behind the shameful Apartheid Wall as 'collective puinishment' by the Israeli Government.

In addition I whole heartedly wished to refute the suggestions that drawing attention to the plight of one and a half million men women and children living in these appalling conditions is somehow 'anti semitic' by demonstrating the concern and anger of many Jewish people both in Israel and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

Emma B.--I read that article yesterday in, I think, the LA Times. I believe Israel to be wrong in not allowing the women to leave Gaza, unless there is an extenuating circumstance we are not aware of.

I'm looking to see if the sky is opening up, and thunder and lighting are in engulfing the heavens because we agree on something on this thread.