GEFF and Proud of it

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Rapunzel
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:58 AM

To the Snail - Nigel does get out plenty - I've even seen him in folk clubs.

To Nigel - I don't think for a minute you're giving up. Sometimes you're the only voice of reason on Mudcat and it would be a shame to lose that.

I hope this isn't going to make you go back on your promise of some traditional Dalek singing next month at the Beech.

As for my own opinions on the matter - I wouldn't make any friends so I should just keep quiet.

When it comes down to it, I just like a good sing. Don't care if it's good enough for folk, it's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Paul (banjiman) in the office
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:53 AM

Captain,

Guilty as charged, I have used THAT line when I fluff something....you have to cover your embarrasment somehow!

The presentation and perfomrance of folk music (any music?)has to be a continuum ..... from beginner to seasoned pro. You start off in your bedroom (maybe even get some lessons.....), start to attend singarounds/ sessions/ maybe get a floor spot here and there and then maybe get a paid booking if you hit a certain quality threshold (or in my case hang onto the tail coats of my talented partner!) and on from there if you are good enough and/or get your marketing right . There are other routes but I suspect that this is the most common, people just progress through the stages at different rates or are unable to reach the next one or choose to stay at one of them.

I think there is good reason to support all of these phases....in the right context and place. We cannot all be perfect straight away and need the opportunity to learn from our mistakes.

I think that is all The Snail is saying (he'll tell me if I'm wrong). Let's make no mistake, the Trad/ folk world also needs people like him to who are prepared to put some effort into making thigs happen......I haven't been to Lewes yet (probably next spring, it looks like a short tour of the SE is in the offing for the other half) but I look forward to learning from (pinching!) there best ideas.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:50 AM

OK, I Captain Ginger, I'll separate the sentences out. Would you like me to put them in block capitals to make it easier for you? Perhaps not.

I'm asking you to give supporting evidence for the existence of "the "it's folk, so who cares" brigade".

All you need to do is quote anything that's been said on Mudcat that remotely resembles that attitude.

Nobody could possibly object to things they have already said being repeated.

Go on. I'm sure you can do it if you really try.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:33 AM

Dave Polshaw

Suerly the fact that a major act on the 'folk scene' used the phrase at all is all the evidence we need.

Er, Alex Campbell died 20 years ago. As far as I know he has never contributed to Mudcat. Are you saying his attitude is responsible for the current (alledged) parlous state of British folk music? According to the Folkclubs Are Crap brigade, the modern folk scene is totally infested with GEFFs and with people who defend mediocrity. I'd just like to see some evidence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:29 AM

It's an attitude I have encountered in more than three decades of involvement in traditional music. I've seen it from those who, at least, are conscious of their shortcoming but who shrug embarrassedly and say, "well, it's only folk and, anyway, it was in tune yesterday", to those who are oblivious to the fact that they are making an audience collectively cringe and snigger as they stop, start, stumble, mumble and massacre the material.
They are the people who prompt a mad rush to the bar from those who know what's coming, and expressions of incredulity from those who don't.

Yet how on earth I'm expected to provide 'evidence' of the phenomenon escapes me and - to be frank and to answer arrogance with truculence - I don't see why the blazes I should have to provide evidence. But anyone here will, I'm sure, recognise the 'heart sink' floor spots and the 'must dash to the bog' performers, those fine ambassadors for our passion.

Anyway, because I can't immediately cite dates and venues, perhaps I'm just imagining it, eh? Let's all pretend it doesn't happen and it'll go away...the folk club has never had it so good...hell, we're having to turn away people at the door because so many young people want to get involved...anyone who doesn't subscribe to our cosy world view is a traitor anyway...stop picking on us...we're not weird, it's everyone else...all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds...'professionalism' kills folk music...who are these punters who dare dictate what they want... and on and on and on...

So Mr Snail, get back on the gleaming bridge of the Titanic and ring full steam ahead.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 07:12 AM

I don't think Alex Campbell ever used the GEFF acronym

I suspect he didn't - he used the phrase, which I heard at a Festival many years ago as well. OK, he may or may not have abbreviated it over the course of the years and loss of brain cells. He probably didn't invent the phrase either but who cares? To start to argue over who first used the phrase or acronym is pedantry in the extreme.

Supporting evidence, that's all I ask

Suerly the fact that a major act on the 'folk scene' used the phrase at all is all the evidence we need. If not how about having a bit of trust in what other people are saying. There realy ARE some shit acts out there who don't do us any favaours at all.

I hope you forever live in blissful ignorance of them. I wish I could.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:36 AM

Captain Ginger, you've just mentioned the Lewes Arms for the first time on this thread. I've said nothing about it.

I'm not asking you to name dreadful singers. I'm not asking you to make make personal attacks on anyone. I'm asking you to give supporting evidence for the existence of "the "it's folk, so who cares" brigade". All you need to do is quote anything that's been said on Mudcat that remotely resembles that attitude. Nobody could possibly object to things they have already said being repeated.

Do you think you can manage that?

The same goes for Nigels "From all this, the conclusion I draw is that in the folk club world, mediocrity is to be celebrated, defended and held up as how things should be."

Supporting evidence, that's all I ask.

I promise not to take it personally.

And Diane, I don't think Alex Campbell ever used the GEFF acronym.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

Mr Snail,

If you read his post, Nigel says he has been to folk clubs and found them unsatisfactory. I fear that any mention of this topic is going to get your knee jerking because you perceive it to be an attack on the unequalled Lewes Arms. I'm asking Nigel not to give up stating what he believes, however much it might grate with your Panglossian naivete.
I'm not going to name names for two reasons. One, because I don't trouble to learn the names of dreadful singers and musicians I've endured as a paying punter in clubs over the years, and two, because Joe Offer has specifically asked us not to make personal attacks, and that is it how it would be perceived.
This debate would be far more constructive if people were not to bridle at imagined slights and be so stubbornly determined to take comments personally. For the umpteenth time, no-one is having a pop at the utterly wonderful and incomparable Lewes Arms, or any of its equally outstanding organisers, fragrant floorsingers, gorgeous guests and beautiful bottle-washers, or its thousands of talented young musicians from a vibrant tradition where everyone is above average.
It's just that some of us here have a lot of experience of the club circuit and have found it rather lacking.
From what I've read over the past few days and several hundred posts, Paul seems to be addressing that issue with the KFFC, and good for him - he sounds like the sort of person the trad music world desperately needs.
If you find the subject painful, might I suggest you sit down with a cup of tea, re-read some of the posts and try to imagine what it would be like for a newcomer to traditional music to stumble across a club which did not reach the peak of perfection shown by the Lewes Arms.

And don't take things so personally; it's not good for your blood pressure.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:55 AM

the main castigator of Kate Rusby is the person who invented the GEFF acronym

If the slimy person is trying to refer to me, he is far from accurate, thus proving an absence of attention to what I say..
What I have said about kR is simplicity itself to catalogue.
I first heard her round about 1994 and thought she was "very nice".
I have had no reason to vary that because she has in no way changed her output and performance, (apart from the odd foray with popstars, the least said about which the better), presumably because she makes a good enough living out of it.


As far as GEFF is concerned, any fule no it was Alex Campbell who used to declare "it's good enough for f*lk" when he was too pissed to tune).

Over and out.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM

Nigel, re comments about lets call them young successful folk artists, it might be worth noting that the negative comments come from both sides of what appears to be the GEFF line in the recent threads here.

---
I think what happens a lot on this GEFF type of thread is they open with a strong comment which someone else responds to with an equally strong view from the other side and battle lines are drawn with each contributer finding themselves taking the side they might believe in most and attempting to show why the other side is wrong.

I don't think I've mentioned "the other side" (and I don't think me thinking TB was coming on to points he wasn't helped...) but let's try a sort of real world reality check from where I enjoy folk music.

Last Sunday night in our open to all Irish session, there was someone currently on the Newcastle degree course present. We also had a member of XIM. Some weeks, added to the mix, we have a guitar from Horses Brawl in this GEFF event.

Those who make money out of folk and study folk can and do get together for the enjoyment of folk and so far as I can tell the barriers that form in threads like these do not (at least with people I've met in that type of event) exist.

I was wondering (again) last night about trying to debate in these threads...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:40 AM

Oh shit. SWMBO has arrived. All bow now. Why can't you just get over yourself occasionally?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:40 AM

Bt the way, the main castigator of Kate Rusby is the person who invented the GEFF acronym.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 05:36 AM

Captain Ginger

At the risk of sound pathetic, don't give up, Nigel.

Give up what? Slagging off folk clubs he never goes to on the basis of what he's read on Mudcat?

the "it's folk, so who cares" brigade

Name names, Captain and back thenm up with quotes.

And Nigel, try and get out more.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:40 AM

Breaking my new rule, but... Paul, I've always considered you to be an honourable exception to the vibe that pervades the UK branch of the Mudcat folk world.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:36 AM

Nigel,

Come on mate, get yourself over to KFFC....we celebrate all levels of ability in the pre & post concert singarounds (from newby to very talented semi-pros)... in the bar where social music making belongs.

....and we celebrate excellence in the main concert format....no "floor" acts just a couple of pre-booked lesser known but still excellent supports and the main act who are either top rank semi-pros or a full timers.

Like you I am early middle age and spent many years listening to punk, reggae, indie etc.......the club is also less than 6 months old so no cliques who have known each other for years (though the stalwarts of the the local "folk" community to do seem to have given us their blessing, for which I am very grateful).

We also present a mixed bag of music (for which I make no apology) from blues and bluegrass (Banjo Heaven!!!) to unaccompanied traditional singers......and I expect us to present many more.

The atmosphere has been described as having a festival vibe with usually a few people in vans staying in the car park or overnighting at the club.....

It's fun, inclusive, broadminded, inexpensive ...and on a Saturday night!

Is it GEFF....I have no doubt that what we do is good enough for folk or any genre, IT IS FUN!!!!!

Which after all is what it should all be about....and my glass is always at least half full.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 03:25 AM

Before the Bridges & GEFFs come along and hurl meaningless, defensive, snarling abuse at Nigel, I'd just like to get in my admiration of his courage at speaking out. He says nothing I haven't known for 40 years (almost the whole of his lifetime) but it needs to be said. Loudly.
Because it is THEY (the Bridges & GEFFs) who are the enemies of efforts to raise the tradarts to the status they deserve.
Nigel, the music has lasted a bloody long time and will, whether or not you and I and the Cap'n squander our time on Mudcat. It is, fortunately, for enduring than a gaggle of parochial GEFFs in a "f*lk club", a concept which is well on the way out and quite irrelevant apart from a tiny handful of shining examples.
It not just survives but thrives elsewhere, as you and I know.
And long will it.
And, yes, hurrah for Bellowhead. These things take a little time . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:55 AM

At the risk of sound pathetic, don't give up, Nigel. I know that those of us who argue for some degree of pride and professionalism will always be shouted at by the "it's folk, so who cares" brigade, but it's a point that needs to be made, however unpopular it makes us.
Agreed, folk clubs are a small part of the traditional music scene and declining in relevance to many, but they can be inspiring places, incubators of talent and positively welcoming to younger performers and newcomers - Sharp's in London is a prime example.
Anyway, on another tack, it's good to see that Bellowhead are to play one of the Proms this year, which will be broadcast live on R3 (the dirty sellouts - how dare they!).

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:43 AM

Sorry, Cap'n, we cross-posted. My comments aren't response to yours...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:41 AM

Interesting that the main point I was trying to make is not one people are interested in talking about, except presumably reasonably well paid solicitor Richard Bridge, who just proves my point: namely the frequently despicable and disgusting treatment the 'folk scene' metes out to those who have the temerity to poke their heads over the parapet and attract the likes of me to traditional music.

Hee's two examples off the top of my head:

Go back and read the thread on Rachel Unthank. If I was part of your folk scene I'd be hanging my head in shame at the vile comments being made about this up and coming young performer, who has done absolutely nothing to any of you and nothing to warrant the pasting you give her.

Go back and read the threads on the traditional music course at Newcastle University. They are peppered with snide, nasty, resentful putdowns and a belief that traditional folk music is somehow sullied if it is taken out of your insular folk clubs and also considered as a serious enough subject to warrant a degee course.

No doubt I'll be told that comments on Mudcat are not reflective of the folk scene as a whole, but nevertheless it does appear to be one of the main vehicle via which that scene expresses itself.

What I don't see here is a scene characterised by sheer joy in the music and a desire to share it with others and celebrate it and take pride in it.

What I do see here is a insular, hermetically-sealed world, shot through with bile and rancour and willing to atrophy rather than engage with the outside world. What I see is a scene that hates its young and resents everything they are trying to acheive.

I didn't create this monster in my head: I came to Mudcat and read your opinions.

Some of you seem like very nice people. Many others appear to have incredibly large chips on their shoulders, half empty glasses, an inability to celebrate and appreciate even minor success, a suspicion of outsiders, an absolute refusal to take any criticism and an entrenched resistance to change.

What I would love to see is folk scene people cheerfully and optimistically trying to demonstrate to me why this isn't the case, rather than retreating into the usual wounded and defensive sulk.

I live in hope.

A couple of brief responses:

Snail - I have 'tried' folk clubs on various ocassions and found that with my limited leisure time they weren't really for me - they were often more like social gatherings for self contained groups of individuals who appear to have known each other for years. Nothing wrong with that, but not really what I'm looking for in a night out.

Geoff - thank you for the encouragement, but I'm 44 and have known for at least 30 years that I can't sing!...

Finally...

No promises, but you all might be relieved to know (or at least indifferent to the prospect) that this is probably the last you'll hear from me on Mudcat.

As you were and will remain.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Apr 08 - 02:18 AM

F**k me, it's Groundhog Day!
Anyway, Well said Nigel - but I think we old farts are getting to the point where the next generation - like Rosencrantz - are going to give serious thought to having us sent to the glue factory if we don't shut up.
Shall we just agree that there are some here who think all's rosy, and others who would like to do a bit of gardening?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Kosmo
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:54 PM

Seriously. How old are you?
JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ.

I mean come on, it's people like you lot who make ametures with talent feel like they should give up.

I don't care if it's "just an opinion" keep it to yourself.

You're not Simon Cowel, if the music doesn't impres you well I'm sure it will impress someone else, granted some people aren't brilliant, but they've paid to be in a folk club among other people who injoy traditional music, not to be judged by some arrogant twits who think they know better.

Stop acting like whiny teenagers who think they know better.
Crantzy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:11 PM

Yes, most lawyers are prostitutes. Particularly city ones. They hire out from the neck up, rather than waist down. I am not (now) one such and have an axe to grind with the prostitutes in that area with whom I once consorted, indeed amongst whom I was not without reputation.

I do not agree that professional and semi-pro musicians necessarily have artistic integrity. Believe me, I was once invited to roadie the Sweet.

I am an admirer of those who are sufficiently dedicated to their music as to rely utterly upon it.

What I utterly refuse to accept is that those who perform folk (and allied) - who said lawyers cannot be succinct - music have to be of a particular standard or be vilified, as SWMBO would have.

I may or may not be dogshit (you judge, you've heard me play, PM me and I'll tell you others who have thought me OK but I won't put it up as self aggrandisement on a public board - but I am prepared to cast my fate to the winds and tell you to PM the Barden and check what he thinks) but whether I am dogshit or not I am GEFF. I am an F. I play from my roots. It's my and everyone else's music and it doesn't belong to SWMBO.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:09 PM

PS I should add that our 'profit' is what's left in the brown envelope after we've paid for fuel, strings, posters, websites, CD production, adverts etc etc.

Profit is not something left over after we've taken out a salary. It IS our salary.

TB

(Almost none of the promoters make ANY money - a handful do make a living at it, but they're in the same boat as us).

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:53 PM

Richard - I'm not planning to take an active part in this thread for reasons I'm sure some will appreciate, but I do think you are a reasonable man open to the occasional contrary thought, so I'll just say this on behalf of my colleagues.

Your comment above "The fundamental problem is that the essence of professionalism is to do what is profitable - and sod integrity" seems to stem from some emotional/political objection to people making a living from music (of any sort) than from any real understanding what it actually takes to be successful as an artist (of any kind).

The "what-most-people-call-folk-but-you-call-acoustic-plus-the-actual-interpreters-of-traditional-material" scene is populated by some of the best-informed, most critical listeners (I'd have put 'consumers' but I'd have been stoned as a harlot by Mr Grumpy and Sminky) outside of the, err, jazz? scene.

It is ABSOLUTELY impossible to be profitable without integrity in the club and festival environment. As, indeed, it is in the world of Soliciting.

The essence of 'profiteering' may be to do as you suggest. But there are NO profiteers among the people who work the club and festival circuit. The two meanings of the word professional ('to work at the upper limit of your ability at all times', and 'to rely on the income you manage to generate from this activity') applies to a group of less than 50 individuals who scrape by an income most school leavers would turn down out of a passion for the music and the culture - (and the others who supplement their income from elsewhere have the same ethos).

Most of the rest of you have jobs which pay a decent salary (I hope). Does that make you prostitutes in your fields? Or prove you have no integrity? I don't really think it does.

So why are people so angry with us? We're doing out best to live our dreams, while feeding the bairns. Isn't that a good thing?

Thanks for listening if not understanding

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:52 PM

Don't believe all you are told.

Ask yourselves what professionals do.

Once upon a time professionals as distinct from mere traders had principles. Alas no more for most.

I may or may not be of excellence as a performer of folk or similar songs. I would be chagrined to think that anyone thought I was so conceited as to say that I was good.

By way of example, when I was captain of squash at Nottingham University, I set up an internal match between the students on the Mechanical Engineering course and the teachers (lecturers, professors, and seminar leaders, etc). We hammered them, and I beat an Egyptian called Nassim Hay who I gather used once to play competitively. My number one player was embarrassed to have to pfaff about not to humiliate a chap with an Oxford squash blue (and who wrote a textbook about plate vibrations).

Not long thereafter, I was talking to another student (Nick, I forget the rest) in the coffebar queue. It transpired that he played squash. I said "Shall we have a game" He said that there might not be any point. I said "Are you any good" (he might have been too bad or too good). He said "I'm quite good". I thought "What a conceited shit". It turned out he was the then UAU (Universities Athletic Union) Number 3 - ie the third best university squash player in the UK.

Unless you are that good, no gentleman (or lady) says they are any good, and no gentleman or lady says that any other person is less able than they are.

I may be good, or I maybe dogshit. But I'm GEFF or for what ever else I do and any prima donna who says I'm not good enough for her can kiss my proverbial, if I would let her, which I won't.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM

Richard, you are being very selective in your definition. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, professional means:

• adjective: 1 relating to or belonging to a profession. 2 engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amateur. 3 worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent.

• noun: 1 a professional person. 2 a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.

The being paid for it is only one part of it. Skill and competence is the other side of the coin ... and you don't HAVE to be paid to be competent and acting professionally. And, in fact, usually when you talk of someone acting professionally, you actually mean they are acting with integrity.

Sue

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:21 PM

Good Grief!

I hope you won't take this personally, Nigel, but that's beginning to sound a lot like "I never go to folk clubs because they're crap. I know they're crap because someone on Mudcat who never goes to folk clubs told me so."

Who are these defenders of mediocrity? Name the guilty parties.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:16 PM

Oops, that was meant to be a Forum home, not a submit message...

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:15 PM

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:13 PM

Richard - no, you're getting back to the dictionary distinctions between nouns and adjectives that have been thrashed out in the ghastly thread.

The essence of professionalism is to perform to the best of your ability and with integrity and respect for your audience.

I decided I didn't want to be a professional singer because singing is what I do to enjoy myself, not because someone is paying me to do it whether I enjoy it or not!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:12 PM

The trouble with a lot of the arguments around folk clubs and the quality (or otherwise) of the "performances" you get in them is that the people arguing are often discussing different things.

Herga Kitty in the second post made a valuable point, in my view, when she said

"There is a difference, though, between clubs that aim to entertain with good quality performances, and where the floor singers are carefully pre-selected, and those that are intended for people who want to have a go!"

That pretty much sums up the spectrum of folk clubs as many are a bit of both having some nights devoted to participation and other nights where there are paid guests to provide entertainment.

As has often been said, music is a social activity and sessions and singarounds are part of that, providing an opportunity for people to enjoy the pleasure of making music together. They are not about entertaining an audience but about taking part. That there are sometimes those, like Nigel above who go along to listen is incidental. It's nice when they are there and I know I have had a buzz in the past when someone has come up at the end of a session and thanked us and told us they enjoyed the evening. But that is still not the main point it is more about sharing a mutual interest.

In such circumstances the whole notion of "Good enough for folk" is a nonsense. Anyone willing to take part is good enough. This is particularly true of singing because singing is something all but a tiny minority can do naturally. It is a little different with instruments, because you do have to achieve a certain minimum standard to be able to participate, but the whole point of a good session is that the participants themselves judge when they have reached that standard. It is essentially self policing.

By the way, Nigel, why not have a go at your local singaround. You may surprise yourself and find that you can sing and I am sure the regulars will be very encouraging and supportive of your efforts!

Geoff

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:01 PM

The fundamental problem is that the essence of professionalism is to do what is profitable - and sod integrity.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:57 PM

Maybe I've been harsh. Maybe - unlike other genres of music - amongst the whole of the folk world there is absolutely no-one who could be described as 'half arsed etc...' and everyone's giving it their all. If so, fantastic. I really hope it's true. even a little bit true would do.

I believe the vast majority do try most of the time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:55 PM

Sadly , there ARE a lot of people who DONT prepare for a spot in a Club at all - Or so it often seems ! Equally so , there are the Floor singers who , for whatever reason , dont want to give up the day job and are superb performers , singers , entertainers , or what ever !
But that is what gives the scene a lot of its cahrm - You can never be 100% sure what will happen at any given event - It depends who turns up !

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:39 PM

Snail. Please don't take it personally. It's only an opinion. I haven't been to your club and couldn't possibly comment - though I like the sound of how you describe it on Mudcat.

Maybe I've been harsh. Maybe - unlike other genres of music - amongst the whole of the folk world there is absolutely no-one who could be described as 'half arsed etc...' and everyone's giving it their all. If so, fantastic. I really hope it's true. even a little bit true would do.

It's just that it sometimes feels on this forum that some people (not you, Snail) are staunch defenders of the right to be... well, a bit mediocre and sunday painterish. 'Professionalism' frequently gets a bit of a pasting (whether its affront at how any 'folk' musician has the temerity to want to make a living or the tedious and regular sniping at the Newcastle graduates or the tired old Lakeman/Rusby bashing). There seems to be a belief its somehow wrong for folk music. This seems to be expressed far more frequently than the idea that the presence of professionals is good for the music. They're all derided as wannabe pop stars or johnny-come-latelies or whatever the putdown of the moment is. It's all a bit sad really. No, not sad. Pathetic. Insular. Smug. Self defeating. Short sighted. And so on.

From all this, the conclusion I draw is that in the folk club world, mediocrity is to be celebrated, defended and held up as how things should be. Maybe I'm wrong and some posters are just a bit bobbins at expressing themselves. After all, there are plenty of professional traditional musicians who do the folk club circuit who are excellent at what they do. Maybe some people think they detract from the purity of their scene and might attract outsiders and non believers like me (again not you Snail. I'm answering your point but I'm not assuming this is how you think). Still, apart from the fact thre are useful things to learn here, it's enough to make me not want to bother visiting. It's enough to make me think sod the UK folk scene: I'll just buy the traditional records I like and attend the odd gig and festival and not bother with the rest.

Meanwhile, I do tend to like Les's comment.

Personally, I feel I have no choice but to retain - and apply where necessary - my own critical faculties. As the parent of a young child, I only have a relatively limited amount of time to spend on nights out, which is why, with live music, I prefer either concerts of artists I really want to see or the truly participatory and democratic entity that is my local singaround (though they want me to join in and ruin it for everyone rather than lurk harmlessly in the corner!). I'm not saying everyone should be like me, but folk clubs end up being quite a bit lower on my list of priorities. Not least because they are entirely outside of my cultural frame of reference. During their heyday, I was either not yet born or a little kid... and when I was old enough to go to gigs, folk was rarely part of it. Coming to folk for the first time, over the past few years, as a fully fledged middle aged bloke and folk scene outsider, I have no emotional or sentimental or historical attachment to the concept of the 'folk club'. Hell I'm not even a folkie, I'm just an ex-punk rocker who likes traditional music. Halfway decent trousers, too...

You probably shouldn't take what I have to say too seriously - it comes from outside of your world.

Over and out.

Nigel (to steal Charlotte's thing, the view from outside the window).

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 05:17 PM

The trouble is that there are those who seem to think that the only alternative to excellence is the sort of thing that Nigel summed up earlier as "the half-arsed, the lazy or the can't be bothered." and talk as if the whole folk club circuit is infested by them.

He also said "In my humble opinion, only your very best - whatever that may be - is good enough for folk. Is this fair enough?" Sounds good to me but it can't be avoided that there are quite a few people who have a deep love and dedication for the music and practice for hours in the privacy of their own garden shed but, well, they might be ill advised to try and make a living out of it. Equally, there are those who wouldn't dream of trying to make a living out of it but can easily upstage the booked guest. All of these are, to my mind, the backbone of the folk scene. The professionals are a bonus and the "half-arsed"....? How many really fit that description?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM

I dont know about G E F F , but I have been a pro working Muso for long enough to not worry ! The fact that I get regular pro work makes doing floor spots at my local folk clubs more of a Live Practice .

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM

'What am I like??'

a one trick pony comes to mind *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 02:32 PM

Jim Knowledge - not good enough for cab driving?

Kitty

PS What's "tuning"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 11:47 AM

I `ad that `erga Kitty in my cab the uvver day. She said "Would you take me to the Musical Traditions Club please". She was tuning `er instrument in the back and it sounded blooming `orrible. I said "That`s a bit orf, ennit". She said "It`s good enough for folk". I dropped `er at Centre Point and she said "Oi, this quite a way from the club". I said "It`s good enough for Foley Street!!"
What am I like??

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Kosmo
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 11:00 AM

You know what, as long as someone thinks you're GEFF, it shouldn't matter what a certain few people think. No one is above anyone else, expecially not in the folk world.

Besides, if you enjoy what you do and have fun doing it and other people join in and have jsut as much fun then awesome.

And there shouldn't be any such thing as GEFF ... it's kind of elitist isn't it?
Not a very folkish attitude ...

Aaaanyway, I reckon I'm quite GEFF, well I dunno, I'll pop and ask a second opinion.

Crantzy.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM

How about "Good enough in the appropriate place"

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Dave Earl
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 10:01 AM

I think I am Good Enough as I get asked to do my thing at most of the places (clubs' Festival fringes etc)

It does however require that I make my best effort on every occasion for fear of being O(only)GEFF. This Incidentally is what the lady in the other thread is really complaining about.

Dave

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,LTS preteding to work
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:25 AM

Puritan - person of extreme strictness in religion or morals.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:34 AM

Nigel Spencer

Who are these people? Have you met them?

Which is exactly what I was wondering about "the half-arsed, the lazy or the can't be bothered".

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 08:23 AM

I'd have thought yer average "puritan asskisser" would be one very confused and screwed up bunny.

Who are these people? Have you met them?

Do they do the bottom-related deed then severely chastise themselves before god? With a scourge?

We should be told.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:30 AM

If I'm paying money to watch someone entertain me, then I expect a certain level of performance. However, I also acknowledge that this scenario is a recent invention (last 50 years or so) and has NOTHING to do with the folk tradition.

If, on the other hand, I participate in a singaround or ceilidh, then I expect all manner of abilities - good, bad and indifferent. Because that's the way it's been for the previous 900 odd years.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST, Mr Grumpy
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 07:30 AM

All amateurs strive. But no amateur is a prostitute.

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:36 AM

Basically, I don't give a little hairy rats' ass whether people consider me GEFF - I enjoy doing what I do and no puritan asskisser is going to stop me doing it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Folklore: GEFF and Proud of it
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 06:07 AM

I like to think I'm competent enough for the events in which I participate.

Proud of it? It's difficult - one way to look at it would say not really, although I'm pleased I can join in and believe (or hope) my contribution is worthwhile and I am not ashamed (though I have been at times I've done things not giving a sh*t).

By that way of thinking, I guess to feel really proud, I'd need not only to be rather better than I am to take me to what I might think an acceptable professional performance standard but to be a lot better than that. It'll never happen but I guess with music, the only way I would be truly satisfied, would to have to be at virtuoso level.