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BS: US Health Care Reform
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:05 AM ""One pays taxes into a social system so that everyone will be safe, not just so that oneself will be safe. At least, that's why I do it. What use is "community" if we don't watch out for each other?"" You are correct, LH, but you are wasting your time trying to get that concept over to Doug and similar repubs. As I've said above, and Carol just confirmed.....They've got theirs, and f**k the rest. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:34 AM Yes, Carol has a good point. People who are trapped between the ages of around 55 and 65 in the US, if they have some problem that prevents them from working at a job with health coverage, they are just simply stuck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:28 AM One pays taxes into a social system so that everyone will be safe, not just so that oneself will be safe. At least, that's why I do it. What use is "community" if we don't watch out for each other? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 06 Dec 09 - 01:31 AM Carol C: Whatever. Yeah, good point. Let them eat cake. Right? You're got yours, fuck everyone else. You say you paid into the system so it's only fair for you to be able to get back out of the system what you put into it. There's a lot of people who have worked hard all their lives and paid their fair share into the Medicare system, who won't live long enough to get their money back out of it, because they don't have access to any health care. Those people are paying for your medical care now. Fuck 'em, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,Guest from sanity Date: 05 Dec 09 - 11:07 PM Don Froth:"I don't like to automatically classify someone as narrow-mineded and mean-spirited, but what would you call it? Certainly short-sightedness at best.".......... .............Y_A-A-A-WN What kind of coverage do you have? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:39 PM Yes, Doug, that's exactly what usually happens. It is what will normally happen in any system that's been divided up into two mutually hostile teams who are out to beat each other on the playing field as soon as the game commences...same as 2 football teams. They both go for the win, and they use any tactic they can to secure it...and will cheat too, if they can get away with it. This results in a permanently divided society that is full of suppressed hostility and resentment. It doesn't seem like a wise or relevant way to run a society to me. That's why James Madison and some of your other founding fathers strongly warned against the danger of the rise of political parties. That's why I don't believe in political parties. I do, however, strongly believe in free democratic elections at regular intervals with a variety of candidates on the slate...but NOT through the mechanism of political parties, that's all. I believe in an elected national assembly that is NOT divided up along party lines, but that represents the various (and many) views of all its seated members, each of whom has an equal say. I believe that those members could easily choose from among themselves a steering committee with a chief executive and officers, and they could do that by holding a vote amongst themselves. It would make a lot more sense and cause a lot less spending, trouble, and waste than does your present party-based system, and it would free your public from the tyrrany of political party machines who really represent nothing but their own lust for power. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 05 Dec 09 - 06:27 PM Carol C: Whatever. L.H.: Usually, when one political party here replaces the majority held by the other, there is a rush to get changes made (just as is the case with the current majority)but then the party gets a bit too ambitious and greedy, and an election or two down the line, the other party takes the majority. It think that will happen in 2010. If is does, I just hope the Republicans don't blow it like they did the last time. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Dec 09 - 09:20 AM You're right again, Little Hawk. It's time for the American public to take a look and see who is benefiting from this ongoing food-fight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:42 PM Doug, this business about "more Republican faces" or "more Democratic faces" in both houses come next election...and the hopeful expectation thereof on the part of millions like yourself...is the longest-running and probably the stupidest soap opera in history. It's guaranteed to reverse itself at predictable intervals...but nothing much really changes. That's the method of the drama, and it's primary purpose is to keep you entertained and distracted. (and at each other's throats, of course) |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 04 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM Carol:The Democrats have not attempted to hide the fact that a large part of the Medicare cuts will come from subsidies to private insurance companies that manage the Medicare Advantage program. Perhaps the reason so many old folks like me like the program is it is so well run. That's probably because it's not run by the government, it's managed by private insurance providers. They're saying that the cuts are going to be the waste, fraud, and abuse that they say is a big problem with Medicare. If they're saying they're going to cut subsidies to private companies that manage programs like Medicare Advantage, it must be because they have identified waste, fraud, and abuse that those companies are engaging in. If they cut out that waste, fraud, and abuse, the profits those companies realize may decrease, but that doesn't concern me. If 47 million people have to go without health insurance, and 45,000 people have to die each year because of that, just so your deluxe private insurance provider can make a bigger profit off of the taxpayers' money, then just too bad if you don't like it. Talk about selfish. Maybe you should go find yourself an ice flow and do the honorable thing so more people can live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:43 PM That's about the type response I expected. Carol:The Democrats have not attempted to hide the fact that a large part of the Medicare cuts will come from subsidies to private insurance companies that manage the Medicare Advantage program. Perhaps the reason so many old folks like me like the program is it is so well run. That's probably because it's not run by the government, it's managed by private insurance providers. If the elimination of waste in the Medicare program is the goal overhaul of the health care program would not be required to do that. Any efficient operator public or private should do that anyway. Can't wait till the 2010 congressional elections. There's gonna be a lot of new Republican faces in both houses after that election. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 04 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM Does AARP receive taxpayer funds? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM Is that the Aardvark Recovery Program? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM Are you describing the AARP Carol? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:18 PM *fraud and waste |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:17 PM Are my tax dollars paying for Doug's Medicare Advantage? If so, and if they are committing fraud and wast with my tax dollars (while I have no access to any health care whatever), then if they get their funding cut back, all I have to day to DougR is this... TOUGH TITTIES |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Greg F. Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:06 PM "Medicare Advantage" is one of many optional PRIVATE insurance supplemental policy add-ons to the socialistic Medicare ypu're so fond of, Douggie-boy. Ya got a problem, take it up with the insurance companies. As to AARP, I will not use the language to describe how I feel about that subsidiary of the Democratic Party... And if ever evidence was needed that Douggie Boy can only operate in a fact-free enviromnent, here's your proof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 04 Dec 09 - 03:05 PM DougR, please show some evidence that the cuts will "decimate" Medicare Advantage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:26 PM Why be surprised, Doug? All presidents lie. It's a requirement of the job. The surprise is when they don't lie...it happens rarely, but it should be savoured fully whenever it does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:15 PM Wrong, Carol. The cuts will decimate Medicare Advantage. So I will be awaiting apologies from those who screamed that I was an alarmist and incorrect when I wrote that Obama lied when he said that "If you like the health care plan that you have now, you can keep it." Those of us who have had, and were well satisfied with the plans we have will NOT be able to keep our plans. I realize, of course, that all of us are old and most of us are not facing fifty year futures, so we should be delighted to sacrifice or health care for others less fortunate, but I doubt most of us look at it that way. As to AARP, I will not use the language to describe how I feel about that subsidiary of the Democratic Party. Joe wouldn't like it, and if he allowed it, I couldn't do it on an open forum like this. DougR P.S. I don't seriously expect any apologies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 04 Dec 09 - 11:19 AM They're not cutting the Medicare benefits that seniors receive. They're only cutting out the waste and fraud that doesn't benefit seniors in any way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Dec 09 - 07:34 AM I don't see how the Democrats are supporting the massive cuts in Medicare, and still enjoy support from the AARP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 09 - 01:31 AM Well, I should perhaps explain that I am about as interested in astrology as I am in George Bush's daily shopping list at Loblaws or wherever he goes. I know practically nothing about astrology, I don't relate to it, I find it utterly tedious, and I start falling asleep when an astrology enthusiast tries to tell me about my chart, my rising sign, and all that stuff... ;-) Bor-ring!!! It's not that I'm against it, I'm just not interested in it, that's all. The only thing I know about it at all is that Librans are said to be found of peace and harmony and that they will usually try to establish harmony and compromise when there is a dispute. That's pretty much the sum of my astrological knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 04 Dec 09 - 12:11 AM I'm a Capricorn. We just keep on doing our thing until we get where we're going. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 09 - 10:10 PM Sure thing, Don. Hey, hear's a song you might enjoy: The Battle of the Alamo - 1836 85,000 were challenged by Travis to die By a line that he drew with his sword when the battle was nigh And him that would fight to the death cross over But the others had better vamoose! And over that line came three men, a pig, and a goose! Hey—up! Santa Ana, we're killing your soldiers below So the rest of Texas will know, and remember the Alamo! 'Twas Travis and Bowie and Crockett who dared to remain And the pig and the goose crossed over the line unashamed But 84,998 Texans were lacking in grit The sight of the Mexican Army had caused them to shit Hey—up! Santa Ana, we're fleeing your soldiers below So the rest of Texas will know, when we're far from the Alamo! So 84,000 came pouring out over the walls While another 600 tried to hide in the urinal stalls Fifty men ran for the pigpen, twenty-eight jumped in the well 320 were trampled to death when they fell And the 84,000 came pouring out over the walls When the Mexicans saw that mob coming, they were plainly appalled They threw down their rifles, abandoned their cannons And frantically fled from the field As the goose honked in joy and the pig triumphantly squealed: Hey—up! Santa Ana, we're killing your soldiers below So the rest of Texas will know, and remember the Alamo! 88,000 men scattered like shot from a gun The Texans and Mexicans showed the world how they could run They ran for the rivers, they ran for the hills, they dug holes and hid in the dirt Santa Ana lost both of his boots, his hat, and his shirt Hey—up! Santa Ana, we're killing your soldiers below So the rest of Texas will know, and remember the Alamo! "We've won," cried out Travis, in wonder, "and the glory's all mine!" "Like hell!" growled Jim Bowie, "I outrank you, and you ain't worth a dime!" Then up stepped bold Davie Crockett, his rifle held firm in his hand Said, "If there's to be one lone survivor here, I am that man!" Hey—up! Santa Ana, we're killing your soldiers below So the rest of Texas will know, and remember the Alamo! Jim Bowie was found with a bayonet stuck in his chest While Travis lay dead with a bullet hole right through his breast And poor Davie Crockett lay cold as a sprocket, the Bowie knife deep in his heart While the goose and the pig danced a jig on the bloody ramparts! Hey—up! Santa Ana, we're killing your soldiers below So the rest of Texas will know, and remember the Alamo! Santa Ana was ruined, he had to go back in disgrace He'd lost half of his army, but worse than that, he'd lost face The pig and the goose caught a train to Ohio where they got a good job at the zoo And the Alamo stands as the proof that this story is true! Hey—up! Santa Ana, we're killing your soldiers below So the rest of Texas will know, and remember the Alamo! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:21 PM Keeeeerist, you take things seriously, Little Hawk! I'm not bent on proving I'm right and someone else in the discussion is wrong. I'm just trying to make my viewpoint known, just like everyone else, and our friend GfS takes exception to practically everything I say and keeps saying that it's stupid and not worth even trying to refute. And YOU, Hawk, let that go without comment. And then you get on MY case! Libra? Justice? Not so's you'd notice. Push back from your computer for awhile and have a good think. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 09 - 08:12 PM Blindfold! Oooooo...now yer gettin' nasty, Don. The blindfold is there to indicate justice's impartiality, not her inability to see the facts. Justice must be without prejudice or it's not justice. She doesn't see the color of the man's skin or what kind of clothes he's wearing, she only hears his testimony, and quite clearly. As you say, Don, ""The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. . . ." Yes. That's right. Turn it back to yourself. Now what are we each setting out to do here, you and I? I'm setting out to prove that everyone in the immediate discussion (meaning you, me, Carol, and GfS) has made some good and valuable points worth considering about health care, and that we all agree on some of them. That's a win-win scenario, based on mutual respect. You appear bent on proving, however, that you are right and that someone else in the discussion is wrong. That's a win-lose scenario at other people's expense, based on not respecting them. I think my scenario is mucb more positive than yours in that respect. What do you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 03 Dec 09 - 07:19 PM Libra. Yup. That explains a lot. The usual symbol for Libra is the statue of Justice holding up a scale. But Justice is also wearing a blindfold. I'm a Gemini. I'm pretty good at seeing both sides of an issue. But I'm also gifted with a reasoning mind, so I'm able to winnow out what the crucial factors are and then come to a conclusion. All very fascinating, but as Willie the Shake put it, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. . . ." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM I'm a libran, Don and Carol. (no, not a librarian! Heh!) Yes, I was born under the sign of Libra. I understand from my reading that this is the sign that seeks to establish harmony and concord. It is the sign of dimplomacy and of the search for peace and common ground. That is probably why I often hasten to point out to people areas where they can find agreement and common ground on a divisive subject, rather than harping instead on what divides them. I think that you have all three (Don, Carol, and GfS) said some very useful things about health care and that you have much common ground. I wouldn't expect you to agree, however, on every single point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 03 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM ""I don't think we are in agreement. S/he is saying that government run health care should only be a safety net. I don't agree with that at all. I think government run health care should be a way of life, and that health care should include wellness (preventative) care, wellness education, alternative care, as well as whatever care people need to help them have a decent quality of life."" Exactly so, Carol. A safety net is, by definition, a catch all for those already falling. The UK system devotes a considerable portion of its time and resources to Proactive rather than Reactive Care. We have available regular health checks and clinics devoted to reducing the need for treatment of illness by reducing the incidence of illness. Even something like giving up smoking is covered as part of the NHS services, and if you sign up for it, the assistive drugs which normally cost over £20 for one month's supply, can be had on prescription for less than half price. I keep hearing that it would never work in the USA, but that's what the pharmaceutical companies, and some doctors, said 70 years ago about the NHS. Taking all into account, our system is very far from a simple safety net, and the argument about people being responsible for keeping themselves well, is lacking in credibility if one compares the prevalence and the degree of obesity UK versus USA. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 03 Dec 09 - 03:53 PM What GfS appears to be arguing is that, since there is a possibility that some people may be careless and irresponsible, everyone must be denied a solution that is widely needed, including to people who are not careless and irresponsible, that can be easily accomplished, and that works well in other countries. I don't like to automatically classify someone as narrow-mineded and mean-spirited, but what would you call it? Certainly short-sightedness at best. The Moral Issue: It has often been said by philosophers and religious leaders alike that a society can by judged by how it treats its most vulnerable members. Some examples: Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members. ~ Pearl S. Buck (1892-1973), My Several Worlds [1954].And those are only a few of the massive chorus of thinkers who all say essentially the same thing. The Practical Issue: The following is from a speech made by Dr. Art Kellermann, an ER doctor at Atlanta's public health hospital, who also serves on the staff of Emory's medical school: "You have no idea how much it costs to run our health care system this poorly. We spend two trillion dollars a year on health care, and a trillion dollars is a lot of money. For two trillion dollars we can take good care of everybody in this country, and have a lot left over. And you don't have to look outside the US for proof."Who are the main beneficiaries of our present health care system? Not the people who can't afford health insurance, not those who do have health insurance but who are denied coverage on the basis of a "pre-existing condition" (despite how desperately they need the care), and not those who can't get health insurance because of a pre-existing condition or because of genetic profiling (cancer, heart disease, Parkinson's, etc., in the applicant's family). The main beneficiaries of our primitive health care system are the insurance companies, who have a vested interest in keeping it that way. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:43 AM Also, let's say for the sake of argument that the alkaline thing is true. How will people with very little money afford to do what is needed to correct their PH levels? And how will they even know about it if they don't ever hear about it or have access to the knowledge? For most people, wellness requires education. Without that education, most people will have unhealthy habits because they are getting their training from the corporate interests that make their money from selling crap to people. Without a government run program to help educate people about healthy lifestyles, most people will not ever be educated about that. That is a part of getting the government involved in health care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:36 AM But if you don't have insurance, and you get the brain aneurysm that I mentioned before, that is congenital and not related to lifestyle, you will end up costing a lot of people a lot of money. But if you don't have insurance, unless you can pay out of pocket, you will have to give up your home (assuming you own one), and become indigent and get your care paid for by the taxpayers in the form of either medicaid or medicare. And when you have car insurance, a lot of other people will be paying for the costs of any accidents that you are in. You will not be paying those costs yourself. That's what insurance is - spreading the risk and the costs associated with that risk - over the largest possible pool of financial contributors. A government run insurance plan does not need to involve government employees making decisions about people's medical care. It can be run in such a way that the government only administers the insurance end of it and lets the doctors make the medical decisions. That whole thing about government bureaucrats getting between people and their doctors is a straw man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:24 AM Carol and Little Hawk(yo-ho), If I cause damage to someone, then it is my responsibility to make it right. So, I carry insurance for that, as per aforementioned. I expect the same from my fellow man(the 'do unto others" thing)..so I carry liability insurance. It is also the law, that if one does not want to carry liability, that you must have the means to cover damages you cause to anyone else, you cause injury to, either physical, or property. This can be done far cheaper, if you bought a bond, for 'X' amount, to match whatever you think an insurance policy would cover, and if you caused no one any damage, or if there is no claim against you, by the time the bond matures, you can cash it in, and keep it...then buy another bond for a fraction of the maturation value of the bond. 'Municipal AAA' bonds are the best for that.(Just in case you'd want to know). But that aside, I've said, now multiple times, that I AM in favor, of some sort of Health Care Bill, that would cover medical, for those who are in need of it. Along with that, I am in favor, of some different rules, for insurance companies, that needlessly drive up the cost of health coverage, and for doctors, NOT to run up the cost of providing heath care...just because they can get more, from the insurance companies! That viscous cycle is the leading factor of making health cost go through the roof, along with lawyers and frivolous lawsuits...at the same time, doctors must be held accountable, not to perform shoddy, or unnecessary procedures. I am not in favor of government bureaucrats, making medical decisions, where politics can be an influencing factor, in you getting the help you may need. I have VERY LITTLE confidence in the competency, of government agencies running things well, or cost effective! But, what I can do, is take care of myself as best I can, and not dump that burden on someone else, for every little notion of dis-ease. What I eat, for instance plays way more into your physical health, than you may imagine. Being alkaline, is huge! Not taking reckless risks with your body, is another(though in that subject, one man's ceiling is another man's floor). I'm against government funded abortions, unless there is a life threatening situation, and possibly rape, incest yadda radda cradda. In other words, the public should not have to pay, for little 'Janie' to abort her fetus, because she was too loose. If a woman has the right to control, over her own body, then control herself BEFORE she jumps in the sack with a 'bozo'! Perhaps if she addressed her priorities, she would not need an abortion. People's reproductive organs are not toys, or tools, to reassure one's 'desirability'. Now I'm sure that will bring squawks, but, too bad...and a bunch of 'what ifs'...but by in large, I think women certainly have the 'right' and obligation' to get their shit together, regarding this. MEN, nobody gives you the right, to use another woman's body, to scratch a passing itch, and not take responsibility, for the things you put into motion by that, both physically, and emotionally..then just walk away! UP YOURS!! Any government program, to be executed well, must leave open, consequences to the public, for stupid behavior. You put your hand in the fire..you get burned...run to the government doc, fix it, then go out and burn your hand again?? I know that is a simplified example, but there are those out there, who are just plain simpletons, who screw it up, for everyone else! You want five abortions??...fuck you! You want the public to pay for liposuction?...Breast augmentations?..face lifts?? ..tummy tucks??...Try developing your character, instead! The other problems will more than likely take care of themselves! Now, instead of getting indignant, and arguing things that you feel you're entitled to, think of somewhere, in your life, that you can end some sort of self-destructive behavior to yourself....then, let's talk. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:18 AM Well, I'm not trying to argue Don's points. I have points of my own that I want to make. And that's what I've been doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:13 AM Yes, for sure, Carol. I too am in favor of a universal health plan such as exists in Canada...in fact I think it should be further extended to cover dental care and many forms of alternative treatment which have proven themselves beyond any shadow of a doubt by now. What I am saying, though, is that GfS is not taking up nearly as extreme a position as I think Don is suggesting and that there are many areas in common between the three of you where you would agree. This doesn't mean you'd agree on every point. Don seems to be suggesting that GfS would agree with everything Fox endorses. I very much doubt that that is the case. GfS seems to me to be more of an independent thinker who thinks for himself (herself?) than someone who parrots Fox or any other special interest group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:03 AM I don't think we are in agreement. S/he is saying that government run health care should only be a safety net. I don't agree with that at all. I think government run health care should be a way of life, and that health care should include wellness (preventative) care, wellness education, alternative care, as well as whatever care people need to help them have a decent quality of life. Keeping government run health care as a safety net only insures that people will have much more expensive health problems and cost everyone else a lot more money in the long run. In my own case, I have the early stage cataracts that I spoke of before. There is nothing I can do to correct that through how I live my life, and while I try to limit the amount of exposure to ultra violet light so as to try to prevent them from getting any worse, that is really impossible for me to do with all of the fluorescent light bulbs being used these days. And I can't afford right now to buy prescription sunglasses, so my exposure to sunlight is more than it probably should be. If I had health insurance that included vision, the chances that I would develop cataracts that would seriously impair my vision would be less than it is now. Universal health care prevents health problems that cost everyone a lot of money. That's why countries with universal health care have better health statistics than the US has. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 09 - 01:00 AM Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, Don. Gfs did say "Do I think there should be some sort of government run health care?...YES.... Should that be a reason to neglect our own health, or do something to improve our health, figuring someone else can pay for it?...NO!" There's nothing I find about to argue with there. GfS is recommending BOTH a government-run health care plan AND greater efforts by individuals to live a healthy lifestyle. Not "either or". "Both and." Sounds sensible to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:55 AM Good advice in general, GfS. However, there is a small flaw in your reasoning. So you DO take responsibility for your own health. You have never smoked, you drink in moderation (a little wine at meals from time to time because you have read from authoritative sources that it's good for you), you watch your diet carefully, you exercise every day, the whole ball of wax. You are all aglow with abundant good health. Then, one day, you are crossing the street (in the crosswalk and with the light after having looked both ways) when some dork who's not watching his driving because he's text-messaging while steering with his knees runs the light. You're suddenly airborne, land on the guy's windshield, and the next thing you know, you wake up in the hospital in traction. But this time, the dork is not insured! And, yes, he is driving illegally. Or you and a group of friends go out to a fine restaurant. You eschew many of the goodies on the menu because you regard them as not particularly healthy (too fatty, too much salt, etc.) and while others are ordering steak, you order the new item on the menu: buffalo steak. Much leaner that beefsteak, free-range, grass-fed, and not full of hormones and such. Very tasty, very healthy. Normally. But you and four other people who ate at that restaurant wind up in the emergency room with food poisoning because that particular shipment of buffalo steaks hadn't been properly refrigerated while they were being shipped. Or the vagrant virus that you inhale without being aware of it—no way you could be aware of it—until you wind up sick as a dog and barfing your guts up three days later. There are a lot of contingencies. And no matter HOW conscientious you are, you can never be sure when, how, or IF you might wind up in a hospital or doctor's office. THINK! I pay taxes and have ever since I started working while in college. I expect police protection when I need it. I expect fire protection when I need it. I expect the streets to be properly maintained. These things are paid for by my taxes. People more wealthy than I pay more than I do. People less wealthy pay less, and some, none at all. But they also need these services from time to time, just as we all do. No one can be immune from these hazards, no matter how careful they are. That's life. Since health care is just as essential, I see no reason why it shouldn't be paid for the same way. Other countries do it that way, everyone is covered, rich and poor alike, and it works just fine, despite what the insurance companies and Fox News Service would have you believe. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 09 - 12:25 AM You're both making good points. GfS is correct that the public should (on average) probably exert a good deal more effort in maintaining good health, rather than behaving like lazy, irresponsible fools and then waiting for the medics to rush in and save them from the results of their bad lifestyle. Carol is also correct that a government-run health plan should be there to assist people who are struck by unexpected medical emergencies such as she alludes to. You are both in favor of a government-run health care plan to deal with these things. I see no reason for arguing as if you were opposed to one another, when in fact you may be very much in agreement on a great many things. I can say too that like GfS I have cost the government in Canada almost nothing in health insurance costs, because I have hardly had to consult hospitals or doctors for anything at all during my adult life. Most of the medical costs I've incurred have been dental (which isn't covered), chiropractic (which is not covered much), and naturopathic (which isn't covered). So my taxes have been going to heal other people, not me, because I've taken good care of myself and I've mainly gone for alternative forms of treatment that aren't covered. Do I resent paying for other people's health care when I pay my taxes? No, not in the least. I'm glad to do it. I think it's part of having a decent and responsible society. My total taxes toward health care are less than $1,000 a year, and that seems quite reasonable to me. Don - That poor shark has been jumped so much lately on various Mudcate threads that he's probably getting quite paranoid by now.... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:58 PM Here's another for instance... let's say you have a congenital defect (that you are not aware of) in your brain that causes you to have an aneurysm that costs a million dollars to treat and stabilize you, and millions more during the course of the rest of your life to keep you alive. Would you be able to pay for that yourself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:55 PM So you took other people's money to pay for your medical expenses, then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:41 PM 1982 I was a pedestrian walking across the street, and was hit by a car going 37 mph. Because he hit me,(and it was a government car) his insurance paid for it. I also have car insurance, in case I cause damage to someone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:20 PM So if you were in a car wreck, and you had injuries that would cost a million dollars to get you fixed up, and millions more to take care of you for the rest of your life because you got totally messed up in the accident, you would be able to pay for that yourself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Dec 09 - 11:10 PM Yes..I do...and I take care of myself, too. When I need to go, I do. I pay for it myself. And as I said, before you didn't read my full post..."Do I think there should be some sort of government run health care?...YES...." That being said, who wants to wait till they get sick?? We can all do things to stay healthy..or healthier. Not only do you feel better, you're happier too! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:12 PM People with private insurance are relying on other peoples' money to pay for their health care also. If you have private insurance, your health care is paid for by other people's premiums. Are you willing to go without any insurance at all yourself, GfS? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 02 Dec 09 - 10:07 PM Well, the thread IS about about 'Health Care Reform'...Hey, how about this for reform.....YOU (we) are ultimately responsible for our own health. How about being at least a little bit cognizant, of the fact that if there are things we can do to improve our own health, and quit relying on the government(read: other people's money) to pick up the slack for our ignorance, bad habits, and recklessness, perhaps that is a 'reform' that starts with us.....before we go running to someone else!!! Do I think there should be some sort of government run health care?...YES.... Should that be a reason to neglect our own health, or do something to improve our health, figuring someone else can pay for it?...NO! Again, government 'entitlements(?) should only be a safety net,..not a way of life for physical, mental and emotional slobs! Why wait to get needlessly sick, when you can do things to prevent it???? (Unless you're helplessly needy, all the time, Read: Pain in the ass!) GfS P.S. Think before you blather back! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 02 Dec 09 - 05:20 PM A friend sent me a email in which he referred to a recent article in The Guardian reporting that the death rate from cancer in Great Britain is 38% higher than in the U.S. and 16% higher in Canada. Could this possibly true? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 02 Dec 09 - 02:04 PM Well, no, Little Hawk. Rig tried to divert the thread from health care to his hobby horse, illegal immigration. GfS joined that parade for a bit, then started in on "making water." But then, this whole thread jumped the shark long ago. I may check back from time to time, but most of today I'll be making music. I'm tinkering with some recording equipment. By the way, I never did get back to you on your YouTube video. Good stuff! The sound quality wasn't great (YouTube being what it is), but I could tell that your diction is nice and clear. Good voice, driving guitar. More! More! Buy the way, congratulations: Your above post was 1000! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Dec 09 - 01:53 PM Of course it's peripheral to the main discussion, Don. The only reason I'm talking about it is because I happen to find it quite interesting. I doubt that anyone here intended it as a diversion, but if it's Mudcat conspiracies you're looking for....well, there are always plenty of those to theorize about. ;-) |
