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BS: Physics/Water Question???...
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 09 Aug 08 - 08:39 AM Heck, f-troupe, ol' spawzer already blowed me up on this thread... I don't think he needs another shot at this ol' hillbilly... I mean, it ain't rocket sergry that once a hillbilly (or pump) is blowed up that there ain't alot of satisfaction in reblowin' 'im up... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:20 PM "real important 'er the pump gonna blow somethin', maybe itself, up" The way this thread is going, I'm wondering if Spaw has any stories about his redneck friends, and how THEY would handle the situation.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:46 PM Well, John, I did give thought to the horse but the P-Vine says it would cost too muc to feen the sumabich in the winter... I don't think it's about the cost of feed as much as she don't like havin' to take the dig bar out to bust up the ice on top of his water... What??? You think I'm gonna do that??? Haha... That be squaw-work... (That it'll get you a butt whup right there, Boberdz...) Who cares??? I got experience in takin' them butt whup off the squawz... But nevernmind the squawz and the horses... The important thing is that my drenkin' buddy, the Gregster, has plans to visit... Don't exactly remember where he he said he was gonna leave afterwwards but what the Hell... He's a ggod drenkin' buddy... As for a fountain pump, SRS, the problem with it is that it don't have no IQ's and don't know when to stop... It just pumps and pumps and that what you nedd a pressure switch fir... The pump Iz been lookin' at has a pressure switch that tell's it to "stop"... That's real important 'er the pump gonna blow somethin', maybe itself, up... That ain't no good... As fir Skivz... Ya'll gotta make some consessions here... He ain't no Skivz-come-lately... He been out trying to retire my campaigh debt an' it ain't easy with an echo in the checking account... Geeze, Skivz... I'll call Obama and see if he's got some spare change after retiring Hillary's debt... And for the last time, no one hole Roosevelts houses fir me... I got my pride... Heck, if John Crapper hadn't invented theese inddor things then maybe but... Crapper did and that's all there is to it... Nothing but hi-tech fir this ol hillbilly... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:23 AM Having a horse-powered toilet would be a novelty. I suggest you plant a garden around the trailer to take advantage of the solid excess by-products. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: John Hardly Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:07 AM You say you're currently using a water-filled horse trough? Switch to a water-filled horse and all you have to do is train him to pee on command. Need refill, just walk the horse back up the 600 ft path and refill. Might work even better with a camel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:21 AM You're that close to the USFS, Bobert? Do what all of the natives do, encroach! Go dig a hole and put an outhouse over the top of it, about five feet inside the forest boundary. Simple. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Amos Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:15 AM And one thing you gotta say about the man is that he enjoys great personal hygene. Yeah, ol' Beau-bear, now, he's a clean ole man, in't he? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: greg stephens Date: 08 Aug 08 - 06:29 AM Bobert: I have a vested interest in this discussion, I want to come and stay. Now, I may have missed a few crucial suggestions while ploughing throuygh this thread, which I have only just seen. So, if I am repeating what others have said, sorry. I have been dealing with a similar problem. After wracking my brains for a long time, like you, I came up with a simple realisation: gravity cannot shift water fast along a narrow nearly horizonta of 5(or in my case 8) is nothing. To shift water fast, with a short drop, you need a wide pipe and a vertical drop. Forget your pumps, rug a header tank as vertically above the toilet as you can(with a couple of feet of drop), trickle fill that coninuously(it will be slowly) from your big tank, with as large a pipe as you can rig(with the other three feet of drop). Having said that, it's guitar playing I know about, not plumbing. The people I would talk to are the hippy solar heated gravity fed shower brigade at some local festival(if they have such near you). Good luck. Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Skivee Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:45 AM comealonglately guys??? I take offence at your tone, and your choice of that tie, sir. I'll have you know that me and expresedintal-candidate =to-be Bobert go way back. I knew him before he was a famous as he is now. And one thing you gotta say about the man is that he enjoys great personal hygene. That being said, the fact that I haven't been watching this thread like a coon-hound staring at a treed animal of some kind just shows that we understand the need for personal space. So I read about my old buddy asking fer advice, and I thought I'd try to help my old pal and get dumped on by you. Man, who knew that ex-politics could lead to this kind of personal attacks...except from Chongo. I still hate that simian bastard. And he never uses the toilet. Later, when his water tank is froze solid as Priapus at a vestal virgin wet tee-shirt dance contest, He'll recall that someone had the courage to offer a solution to his problem, and thatI had the courage to try to take the credit. You said "nipple". teehee |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:32 AM Youse comealonglately guys just don't read the thread before spoutin' off. Bobert's already been advised to make sure he has a nipple for blowin' out the lines when it gets cold. He just hasn't given us any details on what his nipple looks like - and I'm not sure we care to have a description. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:04 AM "Because it's tha middle of winter and yer big ol. 450 gallon tank has gone and froze up solid." Actually, the tank is less likely to freeze than the pipe freeze and burst... due to volume of water... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Skivee Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM Well, Bobert,ol'-buddy, ol' expresedintal-candidate =to-be, I would had been talking bout this with you sooner, but I can barely spell hydrostatic pressure, let alone fix one. But here I was drinkin' my Budweiser and thinkin' on yer dripping problem. Then I started thinking on the "bigger picture" as they say. Just suppose you fix this little dripless hose problem. About 5 months from now yer trailer guest gets up in the middle of the night to take care of business. A few minutes later, they hit that little leever to git rid of the product of their labors and ...NOTHING HAPPENs. Why? Because it's tha middle of winter and yer big ol. 450 gallon tank has gone and froze up solid. Sounds like you need a 5 point action plan to research tha best way to face this new crisis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Rowan Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM When I built my house the header tank (in this case 5000 gallons) was about 100m (300') away from the house and the fall was about 10m (30'); those are still the current dimensions. From the tank to the house the pipe is 2" diameter poly pipe (as known in Oz, but called ABS pipe in the US I think) and the piping internal to the house is 1/2" copper. When the system was first commissioned we had exactly the same problem that Bobert is describing; no flow at the (bottom) business end of all this piping. The local plumber came out with a stirrup pump (the sort you put into a bucket but has a leg outside the bucket with a stirrup that you stand on while pumping by hand) and, after we'd selectively shut various inlet ballcocks so that we were dealing with known and short lengths of internal piping, it took less than 5 gallons to pump enough water to remove the airlock in the copper. I had tried using an electric rotary pump but it hadn't worked; it took a positive displacement pump mechanism to create enough force to move enough volume of water to wholly displace the airlock. Most plumbers around my area (rural, with a 25,000 population city in the middle) have a stirrup pump which they'll lend to "known" customers for precisely this sort of situation. Bobert's long hose sounds as though it may have had at least one airlock in it at the beginning of his exercise and I don't know (yet) if he's eliminated them; once the hose has nothing but water in it, siphon action will deal with small rises in its length providing of course that the "lower" end really is lower than the "higher end". On the infrequent occasions I've had to get a serious length of garden hose full of water, without a decent head or a pump, I've found it easiest to just coil the hose and chuck the whole coil into the creek. Bobert, you could use your header tank; airlocks can be manually manipulated to the end of the coil or you could use one of those battery-powered drill pumps that John has mentioned. When they've been removed, put a bung in each end of the hose and lay it out through your snake paddock. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:01 PM The low tech answer, if you've got company in a few days, would be to stick a bucket full of water next to the toilet seat and use that for flushing. Of course after flushing you'd have to fill the bucket again, but you've got a 250 gallon tank next door. Maybe stick a tap (faucet that is) in the side of the tank to make it easier filling the bucket. My dad used a bucket for flushing for months when he moved back to Ireland and they didn't have the running water sorted out yet. Maybe there's some helpful pointers in here - The Specialist |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 Aug 08 - 06:51 PM The septic system may be like grandma's. A tank in the ground to "settle" the stuff, with a cistern pump out under the elm trees. When you pumped the tank out to make room for more drain water, the chickens came runnin' to clean up the lumps. By the time they got done, there was nothing but chicken sh*t under the elms, but that was already all over the place so that was "normal sanitary" without separate treatment. Life on the farm was really healthy 'way back when *** Actually, granny's system wasn't all that crude. The settling tank provided time for the "sewer biota" to digest anything dangerous, and pumping the "processed water" out on top of the ground was very little different in actuality than seeping it out a little at a time in a "more modern" septic field with fancy porous pipe and all that stuff. The only thing changed with a "more modern" system is that you didn't have to have someone work the pump handle the 436 strokes (I counted it several times) it took to spread it out once a week or so. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 07 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM Well, seein' as the trailer's stern is practically in the Shenandoah National Forest (30 feet, maybe???) and the back side drops off and the bow has a road going down into the woods behind Sparty and the front is, well, the front, I don't see any place to build a water tower other than where the current tank sits... Now, yeah, I could build a stationary tank there and use the tank/trailer to bring water that far and then pum it into the perminent tank but thats eems like alot of extra work for no real payoff.... Think I'll just instal;l the pump for now and think about other options that aren't ugly and/or dumb... Thanks, John, fir not asking about the ceptic system... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: gnu Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:35 PM No, provide the bucket and lease it to a small boy on contract. Then, get him to buy the bucket and more buckets on his own for future work at your place on short term contracts. When he buys them all, let his contracts run out and buy the buckets at 30p on the dollar and start over. Hey, the big lumber companies do it all the time here. Of course, the "buckets" cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the "small boys" have families and farms to lose when the go bankrupt, but, golly gee gosh... money is money, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:29 PM 600 feet?!!! Bloody Hell! If that's how close he keeps his friends... Sometimes friends kept at a distance remain friends longer than the ones up close. And it's also possible that 600 feet is as close as some of Bobert's friends want to be *** ***. But we might suspect that the location is in anticipation of his own "quest for solitude" after the guests leave(??) If you're gonna be in the doghouse, you need a nice doghouse - as far out of sight as possible. If you're using a pump, the few feet of elevation isn't really very helpful, and the 100 feet of hose probably "erases" any good that is obtained from the elevation. You have a tank on a trailer to get the water to the vicinity of the Spartan. It might simplify your plumbing if you used the mobile water tank just to refill a fixed tank closer to where the water is used, or just parked the trailer closer to the Spartan where you could use a ten foot hose instead of the 100 foot one. If the trailer is really suitable for carrying 425 gallons of much of anything, the tank on the trailer would be enough elevation to feed the pump through a short hose.. Even the "half full" ~200 gallons is close to 3/4 ton of water, so we'd suppose that even by West 'Ginny ratings it's probably on a trailer with at least ten inch wheels(?). RECOMMENDATION: Since gravity feed alone didn't work, the water should be moved as close as possible to the pump, and the shortest convenient hose should be used to connect the water tank to the pump. Bobert will have to work out details with local consulting staff about how much weight to give to "ugly factors," interference with traffic patterns (foot, livestock, and farm implements), and whether drainage1 at the connection is adequate for any spillage/seepage that's inevitable with "mobile" liquid transfers. 1 There's "drainage" and then there's "holdage." If the latter is more appropriate, just call it the new birdbath, even if it's just the chickens that use it. Finding "short hoses" can be something of a problem. Garden shops seldom have anything less than 40 or 50 feet (in quality that will stand even low pressures for sustained periods). RV shops may have "potable water hoses" in lengths down to about 7 feet (and up to about 30'), but they're stiff and a nuisance to handle, and are seriously overpriced. "Washing machine hoses" are rated for constant pressure, but again are not flexible, and are "female on both ends" so an adapter is required. They also are usually half-inch diameter. That might be big enough, but IMO even 5/8" or 3/4" would be more suitable. My Home Despot has recently had "hose reel inlet hose replacements" in about 3 or 4 foot lengths, but I'm not sure the quality is any better than what usually comes with a hose reel, which is sh*tty at best. A length of hose suitable both for filling the tank and dispensing the water might be a consideration if the water is left on the trailer for use. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bill D Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM "600 feet from the house to the Spartan" Might be easier to hire a small boy with a bucket. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Amos Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM ANothe r op[tion is just put that damn tank right outside the trailer, never mind the height, and put a sump pump in it to fill the tank. FLoat cut-off switch. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM A water-filled horse trough outside the trailer with a bucket next to it is sounding more and more appealing. When I was looking at how to move water for a gray water system the guy at work I spoke with compared the various systems he uses (at work he pumps printing chemicals, at home he has an above ground swimming pool and a large salt water fish tank). He said the easiest way I could solve my problem of tub water to a holding tank outside was to go to the pet or fish store and get a transfer pump like he uses when he wants to move some water out of his salt water tank to put new in. It wouldn't run all the time or when the pressure changed, you would turn it on, move water (like into that gravity feed system I suggested on outside the trailer high on a platform), and turn it off again. Heck, Bobert, just get CREATIVE! Turn the toilet tank into a house water feature and put in one of these with a line from the trailer up the hill. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 07 Aug 08 - 10:12 AM So not to worry... Heck, last year I replumbed an entire old hotel in Luray' Okay, then Bobert. That's reassuring. I hope it all works out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:43 AM "600 feet from the house to the Spartan" 600 feet?!!! Bloody Hell! If that's how close he keeps his friends... :-P |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:37 AM "The pump is the path of least resistance" You running for Political Office Bobert? Thought it was "The pork-barrel is the path of least resistance"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:04 AM Ummmmmm, try 600 feet from the house to the Spartan... That's a lot of feets and a lot of garden hose that would have to go over the P-Vines flower beds, thru the barn and across two roads... The pump is the path of least resistence... As fir the toilet workin'... Hey, I've rebuilt many a toilet in my day and I know it will work fine once I get some water to it... BTW, John, you'd love the Wes Ginny ceptic system I put in back there... But I ain't divulging the details on it as yet... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:13 AM First post: Then I took a 425 gallon tank which is mounted on a utility tariler and I filled it half full of wtare and towed it to a place that is approximately 5 feet higher than the ballcock valve in the toilet * * * It might be worth considering: You have 100 feet of garden hose between the tank and the PVC plumbing in the Spartan trailer. Gravity feed is marginal to get the water from the tank to the trailer, so you're considering a pump. If you have an outside sillcock back at the house, with "typical house" water pressure, and if the Spartan trailer is within about 250 feet of the house, it might be simpler just to run up to 250 feet of garden hose from the pressurized house plumbing. Extensive/repeated experience (largely at WVA) indicates that "normal" 35 - 40 psi at the sillcock will push 1.5 gpm or more through 250 feet of 3/4" garden hose. This would probably be sufficient to provide "minimum sanitary accomodations" for your guests. The flow is a little less with the (usually) cheaper 5/8" hose, but might be good enough, although the cheapest stuff doesn't tend to stand sustained pressure as well and might swell up after a while, especially in hot weather. Good quality 5/8" hose is out there, but you may have to check the details to get one that is rated for "sustained pressure." I've only had to run more than 250 feet of hose at WVA (during lineups) twice, and got "usable(?)" flow even at about 325 feet; but the flow, even for a wide open outlet, drops off pretty quickly beyond the 200 or 250 foot distance. "usable(?)" means I could fill the coffee pot in about the time it took to drink the last (16 oz) cup from the previous pot (60 oz). It doesn't include brewing the next pot before the cup goes dry. (It's a campground definition.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: John Hardly Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:24 AM too far from the farm to hook it up to the well...so....how are you filling the tank, now? Rainwater? hose is cheaper than a pump. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:13 PM Gee golly Bobert, I answered that as a YES a long time ago. YES the pump will work (unless you screw it up completely). NO the suction from the pump won't collapse the hose (if it's made in the current century). MAYBE the toity will work when the pump works to get water to it. IF the toity doesn't work, you might want to add a surge tank to make the fluctuations in pressure at the toity a little less. Careful reading (as in proof reading) is best done by two people. One reads, and the other watches Just don't call anything here "instructions" 'cause we know that real men never read those. Call them whatever (well almost whatever) else you want to. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:58 PM "Will the pump work??? Yes _________ No __________" Sadly, I fear that John, like myself, is largely incapable of just ticking ONLY one, because we can see that life is not just black and white.... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM Sorry about the invisible ink... You need a Bush to help Bobert? - from the Mudcat Thread List... Bush to China----'Tear Down That Wall!' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:54 PM You need a Bush to help Bobert? - from the Mudcat Thread List... "Mohave," Dunno - that one deserts me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:54 PM I need some drugs... No, I need a brain... No, I need some drugs and a brain... John??? You have put a hurt on my head... I big 'un, too... Just tell me if the danged pump will work... I don't really need to leart up nuthin' here... I just need the toilet to flush... Oh, I'm sorry... I appreciate you going thru all that heady stuff but if you had to walk around in my head fir a day 'er two you'd go, "Hey, Boberdz, just install the pump" and leave it at that... But I apprciate yer postings... Iread 'um and then go, "What???" but taht my problem... I don't know how I got so far in life with my defective brain... It don't think right??? Will the pump work??? Yes _________ No __________ B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:53 PM Yes about Vista; but even Vista can't suck like the new Office. And of course you've heard about "Mohave," the other recent big suck. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:48 PM Funny, thought would would be here with helpful advice John but you forgot one bit VISTA SUCKS!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:45 PM Dislexia strikes: maximum surge discharge volume = MSDV, or VSD(MAX) I also meant to mention, if you have one of those 1.5 gallon toities, you can always wait a minute for pump to catch up before you do the second flush ... and then a minute before you do the third flush ... however many times it takes to get the #2 down the hole. The "repetition rate" doesn't have to be added into the calculation for the surge volume, unless you just want to. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM The tank is 5 feet higher than the toity, so you have a "static pressure head" of 5 feet for tank relative to toity. This is about 2.5 psig pressure difference. That is NOT enough pressure difference to make more than a dribble come out of the end of the hose. The absolute pressure at the toity is close to 15 psia though, and the absoute pressure at the tank is close to 15 + 2.5 psia. You can almost ignore the 2.5 psi difference between tank and toity. When your pump turns on, it will "suck" the pressure at the pump inlet down by some amount. The amount cannot exceed 15 psi because the water in the hose will boil if the absolute pressure goes negative, and sucking on water vapor doesn't change the (absolute) pressure much. (But don't worry, it won't happen.) If the pump is a "postive displacement" type, like a gear, vane, or geroter style, it might suck to about 14 or close to 15 psi below ambient atmospheric pressure. If it's a centrifugal or other "dynamic type" pump the drop may be a little less, but should still be at least 10 or 12 psig. It must be capable of sucking to close to 15 psig below ambient (close to zero absolute) in order to be "self priming" on a 30 ft deep well, which is one of the typical (but not universal) design criteria for small water pumps. If the pressure at the tank remains at 15 psia (atmospheric push) + 2.5 psig static head, but the pressure at the pump inlet is reduced by 10 to 14 psi, the pressure drop in the line between tank and pump will be 10 to 14 psig, maybe plus the 2.5 psig static head, rather than the 2.5 psig drop you had for just the hose laying about. This pressure difference between tank and pump should be enough to supply a continuous inlet feed to the pump. With 100 feet of hose, it may not quite keep up with what would be ideal for the pump; but it should be sufficient for your system to work. Unless your hose is a really cheap one, or is old and flabby, the 12 - 15 psig "sucktion" is unlikely to collapse it. The purpose of the pump is to increase the difference between the pressure at the pump inlet and the pressure at the pump outlet. The pump itself is probably capable of increasing the pressure difference from inlet to outlet by at least 70 - 100 psig or more. The 40 psig rating just means that there's a switch that turns the pump off when it gets to 40 psig. The switch most likely references ambient air (15 psi) and shuts of when the pressure is 40 psig = (40 + 15) psia. Since the pump can pull the inlet pressure below ambient air pressure, the pump inlet quite likely may be a something around 0 to 2 psia, and the outlet will need to be 55 psid above that to produce the 40 psig needed to shut the pump off. Assuming that your system is all filled and up to 40 psig, when you trip the flush, water immediately flows out and the pressure drops fairly quickly. If your float valve is a "servoed" type, it's the difference in pressure between the inlet to the valve and the exit into the tank that opens the valve fully and keeps it open until the float rises and pushes it shut far enough to "break" the servo. This difference in pressure from one end of the valve to the other may require a minimum flow since it's the flow that creates the difference. If the pressure in the PVC lines drops too quickly, and if the pump has to suck too hard to try to hold the pressure up, the valve might fail to function as expected. You should still be able to "dribble the toity tank full" but it may be rather slow. If the pump can't keep up with the flow demanded by the toity, you can "stabilize" the pressure by adding a surge tank. Put a Tee at (or a few inches downstream from) the pump oulet with the side leg pointing straight up. Attach a pressure tight can of some sort so that the water can enter at the bottom and compress air above it in the can. The air will be compressed to the same 40 psig as the water, but can push water back out at near that same pressure for a bit to supplement the flow, keeping the pressure up (perhaps) better than the pump can do alone. A typical design choice would make the surge tank about 50% larger than the "maximum surge discharge volume." The MDSV in your case would be the amount of water that the toity tank needs to refill - about 1.5 gal for one of the newfangled "environmentall friendly" ones or as much as 7 gal for a really old one. That would imply either about a 2.5 gallon surge can/tank or a 10 gallon one, although you probably won't really need quite that much in either case. If you put the Tee in when you connect the pump, you can put a stopper in it and decide later whether to add a surge tank. (I'd have on in my camper by now, but I can't find a "5 gallon" space I can fit one into without major re-plumbing.) You can use a hose to connect it, as long as the water goes in and out at the bottom and the air stays on top. A 5" PVC pipe (~19.6 in2) at 231 in3 per gallon needs to be about 1 foot long per gallon, if that suggests a convenient construction (if I remember my constants close 'nuff). S(n)ide note: while you're planning all this, I trust you're keeping an eye on how easily you'll be able to drain and blow out the lines when it turns really cold(?). You might want to make that Tee adaptable to connecting a "blowout nipple" that you can pick up at the nearest RV shop - screws into/onto a hose end, with a nipple you can stuff a tire inflation chuck onto. I like the "latch on" chucks for this, since you can let it blow without having to hold it on. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:10 PM "with the hose in my hand" Just make sure you have the right hose in yer hand, mate.... :-p Wylie send you this help.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_Corporation The Acme Corporation is a fictional corporation that exists in several cartoons, films and TV series, most significantly in the Looney Tunes universe, where it appeared most prominently in the Road Runner/Wile E. Coyote cartoons, which made Acme famous for outlandish and downright dangerous products that failed catastrophically at the worst possible times. The first appearance of the Acme Corporation was in Looney Tunes in a Buddy cartoon (Buddy's Bug Hunt). It also appeared in the Egghead cartoon Count Me Out in which Egghead purchases a "Learn How To Box" kit from Acme. The company is never clearly defined but appears to be a conglomerate which produces everything and anything imaginable, no matter how elaborate or extravagant. An example is the Acme Giant Rubber Band, subtitled "(For Tripping Road Runners)", which would appear to be produced specifically for Wile E. Coyote. Acme is often used whenever a cartoon, film or similar needs a corporation for a product, and instead of stealing an existing (perhaps leading to trademark issues) or making one up, they simply use Acme. You know Wylie sued ACME (Article in Playboy) - but lost - because he was not using the products in accordance with their design intent... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:33 PM Don't you go puling no Springfield Mountain stunt on us, Beau-bear. You know P-Vines dentist ain't all it could be. I'll be et fer a tater if you're gonna wiggle out of the Getaway. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM Just send Paris, f-troupe... No, no... Don't send her... Send her mom... No, no... Don't send no womenz to do no menz work... I got myself into this fix and no wamanz gonna get me outta it... No progress today but that's 'cause I been too busy doin' the stuff that the P-Vine says I had to do... I have some ideas for tomorrow which I'm gonna try... None involves any calls to Wylie Coyote... First, I'm gonna try to get Amos's air bubble out by walking thru 100 feet of snake infested weed patch with the hose in my hand trying to coax it out... Kinda like burpin' a bay, 'cept in a snake pit... Tomorrow's Bobert thread will be entitled "Snake Bit"... I'd say lol but it ain't so funny... More snakes in the 100 feet of eed patch than there is bullshooters in Mudville... If that don't work and I survive tomorrow's snake bite then a pump is next... If the sanke gets me then, geese, I'll have a good excuse for not postin' here no more??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 08:12 PM One suggestion would be a gravity fed tank above the level of the toilet tank. Then ya just gotta get the water up in there... which may be higher than where you got the big storage tank... Come Back Heath Robinson, all is forgiven... I'd suggest hiring Paris Hilton with a bucket... depending on who ya got staying in the van... I been thinking of visiting you... This saga is starting to suggest a song about Bobert's friends helping him, along the lines of a cross between "That's What Friends Are For, Boys" and "Right Said Fred"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bert Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM Put a pump on the 450 gal tank. And don't forget to install a foot valve if the pump is mounted above the tank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bill D Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM the original toilet designs were gravity-fed, but from directly overhead. Maybe you need a simpler design. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: folk1e Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM If you could "blow" through the ballcock it isn't the problem! Take your hose back up to the tank and get it running through from there, block up the hose (in line tap?)to stop the water running down your legs (and emptying the tank) as you take the hose back to the toilet. Open your inline tap and you have water at the loo! If it still runs too slowly, fit your pump! Make sure your guests know how hard it was to get the thing to work. Have fun! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: gnu Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM Ahhh... John said it a WHILE back. It's the pressure regulator in the toilet tank tower. It's not complicated. Always change the fuel filter first... the least expensive part of the system first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM Apparently gravity feed is not producing sufficient flow; this is because of (a) slow air intake causing back-pressure (b)insufficient head (c) line restrictions not detected. The venting problem if that were it could be at either end--air has to replace the water moved from the tank, and must be free to miove out of the line at the other end. You could test the head proposition by hooking up a lighter five-gallon thing on a ladder just to see what it does to your net flow. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Big Mick Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but I thought this was a gravity feed hose (from a collecting tank) that feeds the pvc and tank. Where is the pump? If it is a gravity feed, basically it is just like a sink that isn't vented. It would run very slow, if at all. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM Well, JOhn, I'd like to mouth the pump in a box on the side the the trailer where my supplu inlet is... I have insalled a circuit breaker panel just 10 feet from there and wouldn't be nuthin' to wiring it... The pump is 1/2 inch in and out (male threaded) so that would work with both the hose and the pvc... Not too sure, Mick, about needed any more venting... I know that the tank needed venting and it is vented... I think if I put a tee in the middle of the hose that might create a way to suck in air when the pump runs??? But I'm not sure on this... Seems that I want the hose to stay full of water and I think with the check valve in the pump and no vented hose that it should do that once I have the air out??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Big Mick Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM yeah, but the supply line to the tank isn't, and if I understand your description, that is essentially a drain from a holding tank. I would still try venting that line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM SOund slike there is a choke point which is dropping your pressure just enough to prevent flow past the wall. The stopcock valve is probably smaller diameter. Were it I, Beaubear, I would replace that garden hose with 3/4" PVC stepped down at the ends. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM If the hose (garden hose) is reasonable quality and in fair shape, 40 psi isn't too likely to hurt it, so you could put the pump at the tank and pump the 40 psi into the hose. At WVA we commonly use a couple of hundred feet of ordinary garden hose, with an RV "regulator" (50 psi limiter) at the inlet to the hose, and have little problem. They've been known to crank the pressure up to 75 or 80 psi at the faucet so that the 15 or 20 hoses hooked up to it can all get something out of the other end, and the garden hose with the "limiter" at the outlet end will sometimes swell up and bust with 70 psi going into it; but 50 psi going in doesn't usually hurt a reasonably good hose. If you have to run power for 100 feet or more, I'd suggest you try to use AWG12 or better wire - not for carrying the power but to minimize the voltage drop. Even at the couple of amps that a 3 gpm 40 psi pump will draw, 100 feet of lighter duty wire may mean the pump is running at 80 or 90 VAC instead of 110, which may be hard on the pump motor. If it's more convenient to put the pump at the hose outlet, I wouldn't expect the pump to be able to "suck" hard enough to collapse the hose. The pump will only run when there's output flow, and will shut off when the flow stops and the pressure comes back up, so it's a matter of whether the hose can deliver enough flow to keep the pressure up that determines how hard and how long the pump will "suck" on it. The pump can't "suck" the pressure by more than 15 psi, so when it turns on you'll have up to 15 psi plus your 3 psi from the tank height feeding water in at the tank end, so very roughly 6 times the inlet flow to the pump, compared to what dribbles out of the open hose end. A #8 or #10 rubber "fender washer" (0.112 or 0.125 inch hole in it, and try for a 3/4 or 7/8 O.D. or trim the O.D. to fit) stuffed into the connection where the pump outlet connects to the PVC will limit the outlet flow about like the "flow restrictors" used in some shower heads, and will allow the pump to "see" enough higher pressure to shut off a little quicker, if it's sucking more water volume than the hose can deliver with the pump outlet wide open. (A hole of about 0.1 inch diameter will restrict flow to about 1.5 gpm with normal 35 psi pressure to a shower head.) A restriction at the pump outlet may make the pump cycle on/off more frequently, but that's pretty much normal for small water pumps. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM Ummmmm, I'd love to stay in the trialer but the P-Vine won't step foot in it an' I ain't into sharin' wives... Kinda funny that way... Ahhhh, the tank itself is vented, Mick... The toidu and sink are both vented thru a single stack... Yo leeneia... Al Gore and I invented plumbin' right after we invented the innernet so you don't gotta worry none too much about my credentials... Actually, I been doing plumbin' since back in the days when ya' had to pour cast iron hubs with lead... So not to worry... Heck, last year I replumbed an entire old hotel in Luray and it passed inspection but that's dealin' with real water, you know, the kind that you hook into the town meter... I unnerstand that... Now, the big question... Will 40 psi suck a garden hose shut... I get that answered an' I can do the rest... BObert... p.s. I ain't holdin' nuthin' in, Bruceie... Ain't my style... *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Peace Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM Just struck me. Uh, Bobert, have you been able to do #1 and #2? If yer holding it in it's not good for you, buddy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Big Mick Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM I still think it is a venting problem. The hose/PVC, in essence, is a drain. A drain needs a vent. Try taking a pvc tee and inserting in someplace in the line, and just friction fit a straight tube in the tee to act like a vent and see if it works then. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:20 PM Bobert, my dear - hire yourself a plumber. If you are having problems getting water to flow downhill out of a hose, then surely you do not have the background to prevent problems like backflow or a cross-connection. You could accidentally make someone very sick. Think it over. ====== Plan B. YOU stay in the trailer and let the guests stay in the house. When you need to go #1, find a bush. When you need to go #2, go to the house. Drink bottled water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM The problem with settin' the tank up on a platform is that would be more work than putting a pump in... The reason the trailer/tank is so far away is 'cause that is the highest spot I can get the trailer to... Oh, the reason I gotta use the trailer and tank is that that's its way too far to the back of the farm to run a hose... Ahhhh, mechanical question... I have found a pump that is 115 volts with a pressure switch in it... It pumps 3.0 gallons per minute which is fine but the psi is 40 lbs... That sounds like alot??? I'm concerned that it will such the hose shut... Will it??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:28 AM Bobert, Park the water trailer next to the travel trailer. Build yourself a tall platform next to the trailer and put a tank up there. Remember we were talking on another thread about gray water systems in the garden a while back? This will be a clean water system working on that principal. You can use any kind of container, 33 gallons would be a good minimum, my guess. Attach a hose to the spigot and run it to the toilet intake. Can you do it without punching holes in things? Or maybe pop the window screen. :-/ Get one of these with a male spout and put a short hose on it up to the top of the tank on the platform. You or your guest will need to step beside the large fresh water tank trailer that is fitted with the hand pump and pump water from it up the short height to the tank that is now connected via another short hose to the toilet inside. If you can't get the down hill pressure you'll have to use elbow grease pressure. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Amos Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM SOunds to me like you need more head, Bobert. Or an electric device. ;>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM Bobert - The smaller RV pumps only suck a gallon or two per minute. If it's good hose it likely will take the the suction from a small pump. If it's that $5 per 50 foot stuff from Wally World it might be iffy. The pump can't "suck" more than 15 psi, and the hose will then have up to a 16 psi drop to the pump, which is much better than the 2.5 psi with gravity alone. As was suggested, you could have an "air block" in the hose, so picking the hose up (higher than the rest of the hose) close to the tank and walking the high spot to the PVC should push the air to the end - especially if you can unclamp the downhill end while you make sure there's a flow. (If you walk it the other way, the bubble has to move against the higher pressure at the bottom of the tank to get out of the hose.) I'd expect you've got enough pressure, even with your few feet of elevation to push an air bubble out, but surface tension around a bubble can make an air pocket "sticky" at very low pressure in typical garden hose. Since water doesn't "wet" PVC very well, I wouldn't expect any air locks in the PVC. If you go with a pump, and want to get fancy, a "pressure tank" at the pump outlet can reduce the on/off surging of the pump. Any pressure tight can, full of air when you hook it up so that the pump compresses the air as it fills the can with water will give you some flow both from the air pressure pushing water out of the can and from the pump trying to keep the pressure up. Something like an old 20 pound propane bottle (one you're ready to toss because it doesn't have the newfangled overfill preventer valve) or even a small hot water tank could be fairly easy to convert. The surge tank of course is just frills and fillips though, so suit yourself about adding features. Most any pump should work fine without one. Your local hardware might have one of the $9 utility pumps1 that you can stick on a drill motor to pump out your flooded basement, with hose couplings on both sides, that you could use to "test the theory" if you like, before you invest in a real pump. 1 Probably about $19.95 retail, but worth about $9 - or a lttle less - if you're a realist. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:50 AM Where the water enters the toilet ballcock valve - is it a "one-way" valve. Sometimes there is a devise incorporated to prevent a back-flow so that the water source cannot be polluted. If so you will need a higher pressure to open this valve so will need a higher head of water. In the UK we are suposed to have these devices fitted in showers etc. so that if the shower head falls in the bath, for example, you don't get dity water syphoned back into the mains. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:46 AM I have decent flow at the end of the hose but that is only when I drop it to about a foot off the ground... The inlet pipe is 4 feet off the ground and I still have some flow even at 4ft put not any real pressure to speak of... Will a pump with internal regulator between the inlet PVC pipe and the hose work or will it suck the hose shut??? BTW, it's not a glue problems cause I blew thru it after putting everything together and it was open... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:10 AM "raise the pipe at the tank end, then walk along forming a travelling wave " It would work best if you worked from the bottom of the hose to the top. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Paul Burke Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:53 AM If it's not a kink, the pipe could be air locked- a bubble of air in the pipe that presents enough resistance for your low head not to be able to shift it against the resistance of the pipe. Try reducing pressure at the ballcock end- suck on it (though this could be a long haul with a long pipe)- you'll have top do it in stages, blocking the end with your thumb between sucks. Or rig up a hand pump to pump it out by lowering the pressure at the end. Or try working it out- raise the pipe at the tank end, then walk along forming a travelling wave with the high point, the idea being to get any air bubbles to the end of the pipe. You'll have to be careful that the pipe in front is always higher, otherwise the bubble will just go back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Newport Boy Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:49 AM 5 foot head should be plenty to fill a ball valve cistern. I have one working at a foot less than that - although the pipe length is short. You can't get no flow out of a hose if there's a fall - my garden hose empties very quickly on less than a foot fall over 100 feet. Pressure drop only comes into effect when there's flow, and therefore only restricts the flow - it can't stop it. So, the problem is in your 1/2 pipework or in the ball valve. 1. Could you have an airlock in the pipework? If it rises all the way to the valve this shouldn't be the problem. Most UK ball valves come with alternative inserts for high/low pressure. These are very sophisticated - small hole for high pressure, big hole for low pressure. The bigger the hole covered by the seal washer, the better your system will work. 2. Is the valve open when the ball is at the low position? I have known the rubber washer to stick to the valve, and sometimes the linkage is loose enough to allow the ball to drop without opening the valve - water pressure normally solves the problem. You can check this by blowing through the pipework (disconnect the garden hose first!). If you've got flow at the end of the hose, your pipework rises all the way from here to the valve, and the pipework/valve is clear, the system must work - maybe slowly, but it must work. Phil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: gnu Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:36 AM Ummm. I have never taken a tower apart. Can you just remove the regulator? will the float still shut off the flow? I think I have a spare in the garage... if I get a chance, I'll take it apart and have a boo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: gnu Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:32 AM From the tank on the trailer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:20 AM "a quick and dirty solution is to feed the tank with a hose with a valve on it." But as already pointed out the van is miles from any tap... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: gnu Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:06 AM Water = 62.4pcf (pounds per cubic foot). One foot of water... 62.4/144 = 0.433psi. You can do the rest. John... as a soils engineer, I use the above just because it gives me a better "feel" than your method of calculation. So... a quick and dirty solution is to feed the tank with a hose with a valve on it. It takes time to stand there and do it, but it will work until you have fixed the pressure regulator in the tower. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Paul Burke Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:04 AM How about a Whole Earth Closet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:03 AM A Portable earth closet in a caravan? Methinks I remember a song... Or perhaps we could make one up based on the 'spread a little here, spread a little there' song... :-) "Ya gotta garden hose?" Yep - 100 feet - but like the Traditional Aussie 'back paddock' - it's 3 days ride from the tap to the caravan... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: lady penelope Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:31 AM Leaf mulch and ashes are good for earth closets too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Aug 08 - 05:05 AM How about you build a good old fashioned Earth Closet. A good supply of dirt and some Fullers Earth to absorb the smell, you won't need water at all. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Peace Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:22 AM I have the solution. Ya gotta garden hose? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:10 AM Get a tank about three times larger then hire a helicopter cargo service to suspend it 1500 feet over yourtrailer and its enclosed crapper. Okay? Now go on in there and blow a load.......then flush. The pressure should be sufficient to blast your sorry ass AND the crapper through the roof of the trailer. When you have reached an altitude of 150 feet (that'd be about right)snd safely out of the "drop zone", the helo pilot will release the tank and it will fall on your whole friggin' project smashing it to hell and begone which seems to me to be the best place for it. Good luck. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Donuel Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:33 PM ditto ;<} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM Normal atmospheric pressure 14.7 psi. As a "water column equivalent" this is about "30 feet of water" (or 30 inches of mercury). With your tank elevated about 5 feet you have only about 1/6 atm of pressure, or something like 2.5 psi. If the water in your tank is 5 feet above the toity, the most you can have is about 3 or 4 psi at at the outcome end - with NO FLOW. With 100' of hose, plus some pipe, you can probably sop up the output with a small hanky. Even very low flows eat a lot of "pressure drop" in a hose/pipe. For public water systems that rely mainly on "static head" to deliver the water, something around 30 feet is usually considered an absolute minimum tower height, and even then pumps are usually used to boost the pressure. Normal "home water systems" here usually run in the vicinity of about 35 psi. "Regulators" for protecting the plumbing in RVs typically are set at about 50 psi, so that can be taken as a safe maximum for PVC pipe. Garden hose is a different matter. About 35 PSI usually is safe, for a little while, but ~50 psi may make it swell and burst under sustained connection - regardless of what it says on the package. (We get a fair number of 7" diameter garden hoses - just before they pop - at WVA every year. People put the regulator on the outlet of the hose to protect the camper, but forget that the hose needs protecting too.) It's possible that the valve in the toity may not actuate at your low pressure, although you still should be able to get at least a dribble. Some such valves incorporate a "trip mechanism" (an over-center device). When the valve is opened slightly, the pressure is what finishes the opening, and when it's forced back shut by the float the pressure holds it shut. If you have a simpler kind of valve, it could work at lower pressure; but a fancy one might have a minimum pressure required to "trip on." PVC assembly is something of an art. It's fairly simple, but the "adhesive" actually is a solvent that softens the plastic so that it can "cast itself" to the joint. Forcing joints together with excessive force sometimes can force the end of the pipe shut inside the connection, if you've used a lot of goop. If there's a lot of "glue," it can be forced into the joint ahead of the pipe being inserted and can close the joint. If you can connect directly to the PVC, you should be able to tell if it at least "passes gas" just by blowing into an end. It would appear that your problem is just insufficient "head" to push the water out the other end, but checking the PVC separately might be something to do. I woldn't expect this to be your problem, but one never knows ... If you have a friendly RV dealer, and can get 12V (DC) power to the tank (or better yet, at the PVC inlet), an RV water pump would be the simplest way I can think of to get sufficent pressure to move the water. These pumps have built-in pressure switches to turn the pump on when the pressure on the outlet side drops below around 15 or 20 psi, and shut off when the flow stops and the pressure pumps back up, usually at around 30 psi. I haven't replaced one recently, so don't know what one might cost, but they're a common replacement so they shouldn't be too outrageous and should be fairly available. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM Hmmmmmm???? Me thinks that f-troupe has hit upon somethin'... There are these dips in hose where the water has to go uphill... Okay, not as uphill as the top of the water in the tank but it has to go uphill... Like why wouldn't the wtare go uphill as long as it didn't have to go uphill any further than the top of the water level in the tank???? Yo, Amos... That may be next... Problem is that I ain't got 'niff hose to fill the tank at the back of the farm... It's a long way back there so that's why I put it on a trailer... That way I can drag the trailer to the water source... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM This may be utter rubbish, and therefore worth exactly what you're paying me for it, but did I gather that there's no water in the toilet tank, and you're looking for the water from your source to come in and fill it? If that's the case, try filling the tank from a bucket or something; then, with water presumably available, flush the toilet. Would that put a little "pull" on the water supply, to help the flow? Shoot me down if I'm all wet. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:57 PM "Is the toilet vented?" All Aussie 'domestic ones' are - just a loose cover over the top, but dunno about foreign stuff. The Toilet Tank itself won't be too high? Is the Toilet gravity open to air flush (Aussie systems), or some other system? Some sorta tank pump - could be back pressure in that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:55 PM Get you some cinder blocks or a steel frame and raise it up another three-four feet. First check all valves for blockage. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Jeri Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:52 PM Is the toilet vented? If the tank is higher than the toilet and is vented, what could be preventing the water from coming out is pressure at the other end. (I know a bit about hydraulics, but toilets are mostly a mystery and probably work by magic.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:52 PM "push 'nuff water thru the ballcock to fill the toidy tank" No blockages ANYWHERE? No inline taps turned off? [the old stupidity of the 'frig plug fell out of the wall' game!] You checked the toilet fills if connected to a 'mains' or local pressure supply with a much shorter feed length? "air inlet to the supply tank" The air has to get in to let the water out. Crack open the water fill hole cap. "don't think I can get the screw cap to tighten enough to put an air valve on the tank and compress the air above the water" SEEMS to negate that. "pull the air from the hose" Is there a 'siphon hill' anywhere for the water to get over, or it is visibly ONLY all downhill between the 2 points. If there is a slight uphill section near the bottom, it won't matter so much. "100 foot garden hose" "garden hose hooks into the 1/2 PVC there is water there... Not a lot of pressure but water." There is a considerable resistance in that length of hose, especially if it is a narrow one, but Pascal's Principle says that it should still flow, even if only VERY slowly, unless blocked. That may not be enough pressure/flow to open the ball cock, but gravity should drop it - is it stuck closed? You could try a wider hose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Peace Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:51 PM Ya got something blocking the hose line. NB--PVC is not meant to take AIR pressure. That rating on it refers to PSI water pressure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:41 PM Cross posted, Eb... You gotta know that this ol' beaubear hillbilly been jerry-riggin' stuff all his life... Most of the time the stuff works... Not this time??? B-bear |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:39 PM The tank is vented... I have water at the end of the hose... Then when I slip the hose over the PVC, tighten hose clamp, nothin' in the trailer... Clue??? There are a couple dips in the hose where the water would have to go uphill but at all points the uphills of the hose are still 3-4 feet below the top of the water in the tank??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Ebbie Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:39 PM Don't tell me that the Beaubear forgot the air intake? Naw. Must be another reason... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Melissa Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:35 PM did you pull the air from the hose to get the water started? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: MaineDog Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM Do you have an air inlet to the supply tank? If not, nothing will come thru! MD |
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Subject: BS: Physics/Water Question???... From: Bobert Date: 05 Aug 08 - 08:17 PM Danged!!! I been scratchin' my head all afternoon over this one... Okay, here is the situation... I have this old Spartan tariler that I have been working on to use as a recording studio and a guest house and rigged me in a Wes Ginny ceptic system and put in a tiolet and sink and all new 1/2 PVC water line an all... Then I took a 425 gallon tank which is mounted on a utility tariler and I filled it half full of wtare and towed it to a place that is approximately 5 feet higher than the ballcock valve in the toilet figuring that the water would find it's own level and therefore push 'nuff water thru the ballcock to fill the toidy tank... But nuthin'!!! Okay, if I loosen the hose clamp where the 100 foor garden hose hooks into the 1/2 PVC there is water there... Not alot of pressure but water... Then I put the hose back on the 1/2 PVC and nuthin' thru the ballcock??? I is stumped on this one... Do I need more water in the tank??? I don't think I can get the screw cap to tighten enough to put an air valve on the tank and compress the eair above the water... Help??? I got company coming in three weeks and I gotta have this trailer (toilet) workin'... B~ |
