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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: robomatic Date: 16 Jul 24 - 01:35 PM I think a good related song, not so much a play on fashion/ fascism as a comment on the supposed independence of fashion being hypocritical is the venerable Richard Thompson song: "Bone Through Her Nose". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Helen Date: 15 Jul 24 - 07:56 PM The Kinks Dedicated Follower of Fashion Maybe the song is about Trump too. I first suspected the thread was about him when I saw the title. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: keberoxu Date: 15 Jul 24 - 07:08 PM "Oh yes he is ... oh yes he is ..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Helen Date: 15 Jul 24 - 05:24 PM Hi Joe, I haven't read this thread but the title is a play on the 1966 song by the UK band, The Kinks, called Dedicated Follower of Fashion. Sorry if that was already stated somewhere in the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Jul 24 - 05:16 PM Are there current lyrics to go with this title? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:06 PM No, Doug, Junior and his family do not have links to the Third Reich, but now the Bin Ladens is a different matter, indeed. Why is it that on the day after 9-11, that the *only* air plane flying the skies over the US, other than military, was a chartered commercial airliner which went from city to city plucking Bin Laden's relatives out and to safety? Hmmmmmmm? Never got an answer to that one either, But, heck, I'm patiently waiting. And how about the business dealings between the Bushes and the Bin Ladens? And just how much has Senior Bush pocketed from dealings with the Bin Ladens? Oh, nevermind, this thread is about Ass-croft. Hey, just for fun. What's left of the 5th Ammendment? Not much. Been gutted. Talk of Fasicsm! Ya jus gotta get rid of the Bill of Rights ot maybe that protion that protects the folks who don't agree with ya and that's the all important first step. Nevermind... That's right (ha, get it? Right!) we got troll and GUEST, et al, all ready to split some heads and tell this ol' hillbilly once again just what a wonderful person their guy is.... Hmmmmmmm? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 02 - 08:07 PM You're welcome, Guest. If I asked querstions for everything I was ignorant about your country I'd look like a virtual kindergartner! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:09 PM Sorry Amos it was atupid question, I'm not American, thanks for your help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:00 PM By claiming to be something it is not ("And I am Caesar") it diminishes its power, and distracts attention from its content. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: DougR Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:00 PM Pleanty of facts to back up your claim the Bush clan had close ties to the third Reich Donuel? Let's see 'em. Not opinions, mind you, facts, as you claim. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:43 PM Who CARES who said it? It is an excellent quote, and gets right to the point. I mean, what if Jerry Lewis or Strom Thurmond or Orson Welles had said it? Would that help? I think not. The statement stands on its own feet quite nicely. (Maybe I should claim authorship, and see about collecting royalties... :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:32 PM It doesn't really matter, but I find it hard to beieve that anyone could have thought that Shakespeare wrote that quote. I don't mean the content, with which I wouldn't quarrel at all, either in respect of Caesar or his current successors - but that's not how Shakespeare used language.
Maybe someone could translate it into Shakespearian English... Actually it'd go better into Shavian, maybe as an out-take from Caesar and Cleopatra. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Tiger Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM Zzzzzz......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 28 Sep 02 - 02:52 PM Argumentum ad hominem: the fallacy of attempting to refute a statement by attacking the person who makes the statement. Defense: the character or circumstances of the person making the statement has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the statement per se. The spurious Shakespeare/Julius Caesar quote above may not have been said by either of those to whom it has been attributed. However, how many "Caesars" in the history of the world could have truthfully made this statement had they been sufficiently eloquent? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:21 AM Look it up, mate. District of Columbia. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:12 AM Sorry for the daft question, what does the DC stand for in Washington DC? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Donuel Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:07 AM Corrected links: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Donuel Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:05 AM Putting the current intellecetually challenged Prince W aside, The Bush family and associates over the last 3 generations have numerous connections with the third Reich both monetarily and philosophicly. These are not to be mentioned in polite society but there are plenty of facts to back this claim. MY PORTRAIT OF ASHCROFT The next regieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:50 AM According to Snopes.com: We've been seeing this "quote" on the Internet since December 2001, sometimes attributed to Julius Caesar, sometimes to William Shakespeare (presumably lifted from his play, Julius Caesar). Throughout the summer of 2002 it gained popularity, appearing in countless posts to newsgroups and even surfacing in various letters to editors in a handful of newspapers. Its popularity is not hard to understand: The USA has been embroiled in a war against terrorism far across the world and is contemplating war with Iraq, and the latter action, especially, has been the subject of much debate and dissension within America. This telling observation from Caesar appears to offer yet another valid reason for not yelling "Our leader; right or wrong!" and blindly following the President into war. It is therefore a favorite of those who'd rather sit this dance out, thankyouverymuch. Yet as popular as the quote is, it's not real. These words are not anything Julius Caesar ever wrote or said. No biographies of Caesar or histories of Rome contain these lines, and scholars who have made it their business to know everything about the man draw a blank on this quote. Likewise, Shakespeare did not stuff this soliloquy into the mouth of the title character in his play Julius Caesar, nor did any of the Bard's other characters utter it. No record of this quote has been found prior to its appearance on the Internet in late 2001. So what's going on here, then? As Ralph Keyes explains in Nice Guys Finish Seventh, his compendium of misattributed and false quotes, "Famous dead people make excellent comentators on current events." The dead do not reappear to challenge words assigned to them, an attribute much prized by those looking for convenient spokesmen to lend authority to their convictions. This "quote" called for a strong and respected military leader and statesman, hence Caesar was resurrected to give it voice. Barbara "great Caesar's ghost!" Mikkelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 28 Sep 02 - 08:07 AM Burren Ranger -- That's quite a well chosen quote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,The Burren Ranger Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:41 AM >Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." - William Shakespeare |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Troll Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:18 AM Bobert, you said "*" When Tom Daschle disagredd with Junior about some trivail thing, then they sent out an army of folks to call Daschle a demon and traitor. When they did thay, they, in essence, said, "End of discussion!"
Problem with "End of Discussion" is that without discussion you have "End of Democracy"." troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:50 AM Bobert, I'm at the other end of the country, and couldn't get the weekend off to save my life -- it's national library card month and we have the "arthur" costume and our third Arthur program tomorrow -- Sunday or the week after, I hope. -- MA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:18 AM John Hardy -- There was no Puppet Master in the Clinton Whitehouse. That was part of the problem. They had a great shill, but nothing to sell. As for all of the hoo-hah and who-shot-john over the definitions of words -- This is a politician that we're talking about!! All dictionary definitions are, if you'll pardon the expression, by definition nonsequitors. They have no connection to what Dubya might or might not mean. When it comes to warfare it's all rhetoric until the shooting starts and all lies thereafter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 27 Sep 02 - 11:07 PM MAG: Check out www.endthewar.org. There's a biggie in D.C. this weeknend (Sunday). If you can make it, let me know. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:56 PM OK, refresh; am I the only one chilled to the bone by Junior's use of the term "lightning-war?" You do understand that it equates to the German "Blitzkrieg?" What is NOT to be scared about? I'm out looking for a demonstration to join. MOST sincerely, MA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:51 AM Okay, Taliesen, thanks for the unpacking job. A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:28 AM Well, there's no dictional in my Concise Oxford Dictionary. Maybe its not big enough (more than 1500 ages though, not that concise) or not modern enough.
Truly, I thought there might be a typo, since the idea that the fact that someone mangles their speech a bit by schoolroom standards - which is what I guessed it might mean - might get in the way of their ability to stir an audience, well it just didn't and doesn't fit with my observation.
I agree that throwing Hitler round in this context isn't too helpful. It threatens to derail the discussion, because it's so easy to point out significant differences, and then the risk is people might be tempted to believe that just that just because the guy isn't that like Hitler is ok really. That also applies when you talk about deeply unpleasant people like Saddam Hussein, and Bush and others have done that freely. Compare just about anyone with Hitler and you make them look good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:12 AM What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? (quote) "I know what kibbitzing is, T. I grew up in New Yawk! " Didn't know. Thought you were homegrown west-coaster or some species of westerner. Correction noted ;-) (quote) "The grammar was obscure." (quote re:) "What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? " I'm aware I take a free-association license with words ,but "a momentum of fomenting " within the context of this thread defines the momentum of war-mongering rhetoric we've been subjected to of late and "thick with kibitzing" this "fomenting momentum" may be translated as the AIPAC lobbying being deeply involved ( ie: "thick") with generating the "rationale's for pre-emption" Isreali's subscription to unilateralist pre-emption on record with the warranted bombing of the Iraqi Osirac Nuke Plant under construction in June of 1981. One could then safely conclude that the Isreali's have had Saddam's Iragi regime and attendent war machine well in their sites ever since. If any one group is champing at the bit to "finish the job" it's the Isreali's. (quote) "Be that as it may, if poeple taking advantage of dynamic situations to forward their agendae upsets you, stay out of politics," Oh C'mon Amos. You really have misread me entirely if you suggest that I "shock ,shock" too easily and thus recommend that I should shrink like a violet. Hardly Rest assured that the so-called political "heat in the kitchen" on most issues hasn't made this New Yorker faint of heart yet. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Sep 02 - 07:56 AM 'dictional' is in any sufficiently new and big dictionary. Re Hitler, I strongly support LH and toadfrog. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: toadfrog Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:30 PM Bush is surely a very bad President and a dangerous man. As a President, the equal of James Buchanan. As a statesman, well below the caliber of the last German Kaiser. That said, Little Hawk is very right. Hitler was so remarkably cruel and vulgar as to set a record among leaders of large civilized nations. The opposite of Jesus Christ. A myth and symbol of evil. A serious threat to everyone, and a mass murderer of peoples. On the other hand, most men are "like" Hitler, at least to the extent hair tends to grow on their upper lips. Comparing people to Hitler is simply flaming them; it's just an epithet. I suggest a moratorium on the phrase "like Hitler." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:10 PM Well, danged, I reckon this ol' hillbilly is gonna have to do some time in the corner for reference to "goosesteppin'". Hey, I ain't called Junior, ahhh Hitler. Never thought of it. Heck, he's Junior. And Hitler was Hitler. Two very different folks... Now, I know that some folks get real razed when I speak of Junior gettin' folks "goosesteppin" but unless I am totally out voted by those Catfolks who I respect I'm reserving the right to use the term. It is meant to mean nothin' more than compliance which Junior and Co. demand. Hey, if they don't like it then they shouldn't have paid some PR company a bunch of out tax bucks to come up with that "You're either with us, or you're against us". Well, they could have paid them but they shouldn't have unleashed it. It screams of, "Get your ass in line, *boy*" When Tom Daschle disagredd with Junior about some trivail thing, then they sent out an army of folks to call Daschle a demon and traitor. When they did thay, they, in essence, said, "End of discussion!" Problem with "End of Discussion" is that without discussion you have "End of Democracy". Yeah, so when I say "goosestepping" I am referring to the act of submission, of curling up in a fetal position, of pulling one's head into the shell. It has nothing to do with Hitler but with a symbol of *giving up*. So, my friends, that's my non-Hitler story and I'm stickin' to it. Resist Junior's War Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:28 PM I read the other day where someone said that 'Bush speaks with an iron tongue." I cannot imagine anyone getting all pumped from the fluid delivery of his speech or the eloquence of its content. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:14 PM Gee, sorry MofH. did you really not understand the gist of my point (even if I did take the liberty of making diction into an adjective)(even if you don't agree with my premise) is it really that you didn't understand what I meant by "dictional" or are you just being a prick? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:08 PM Don - Yes. I have exactly the same reservations about that legislation that you do, and I would describe it as a fascist police state agenda with very dangerous implications. A carte blanche to ignore civil rights and due process and the whole democratic tradition. I'm just sick of people bringing up the name "Hitler" all the time, whether with regard to Bush or Saddam or whoever they are worried about. It's kind of like playing the "race card"...just too damn predictable and pat. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: michaelr Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:35 PM Don Firth -- you have laid out exactly what's worrying me. Bush is no Hitler (who was no slavering madman, at least not until the very end), but there are definite parallels in the setup we're seeing unfold here now. McGrath -- thanks for catching the pun! I guess there's not a lot of Kinks fans around here, or maybe it's just too serious a topic for having a wee chuckle... Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM "he can't be the crowd-frenzying demagogue, while simultaneously the dictional idiot." (John Hardly)
Why not? I'm not clear what "dictional" means (it's not in my dictionaly - but assuming it means that he mangles language a bit, I can't see any inconsistency there. That's what crowd-frenzying demagogues often do "Man of the people" stuff.
In fact that combination worked very well for Hitler - though I disagree with trying to draw over close parallels. Bush is a very different creature in a very different situation. There are common features, as with other right-wing populists, but they are fairly superficial.
As for the Fascist label, it's a good pun, and I'm surprised noone has commented on that. But not an adequate summary of the true position.
When the fat cats in Germany helped Hitler into power they thought they were putting in someone who would be a useful and obedient tool. The reality wasn't exactly that, and was a lot worse than that, because Hitler had a nightmare agenda which had very little to do with that.
I doubt very much if Bush has any equivalent agenda. Maybe he is more like what the fat cats thought they were getting back in 1933.
But I find him more frightening than any political leader in either America or the Soviet Union since the death of Stalin. Not so much him personally, but the whole cabal of which he is the head or the figurehead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:06 PM Vee haff vaysch, Mishter Ed!!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:01 PM Well, I never saw a horse that goose-stepped... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:59 PM Well laid out, Don. Thanks. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:27 PM Little Hawk, I don't think anyone is trying to say that "Bush and Hitler are moral equivalents." Reread:— Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications; and warrants for house searchers, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed. Now read some of the stipulations of the Patriot Act:—
1. It gives carte blanche to the Executive Branch of government to act. It sets aside the Judiciary and Legislative Branches and is no longer answerable to them. No more "checks and balances." Two things that I've heard have happened so far are:—
1. Bookstores and libraries have already received subpoenas asking for the purchase or lending records of their patrons. Whether this is sort of restriction of the rights of citizens is imposed by Adolf Hitler in Germany in 1933 or by the Patriot Act in the United States in 2001, it sets a country up for take-over by a dictator. Whether it's done by a slavering madman or an honest and sincere group of nervous patriots, the end results are very unlikely to be anything but disastrous. Restricting the rights of citizens because of "matters of national security" has been the overture of just about every oppressive regime that ever existed. Sense of history, folks; sense of history. Let's just hope we don't all meet in up the concentration camp. . . . Don Firth
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:21 PM I know what kibbitzing is, T. I grew up in New Yawk! The grammar was obscure. Be that as it may, if poeple taking advantage of dynamic situations to forward their agendae upsets you, stay out of politics, is all I can suggest; it is inherent in the dynamics of individuals and groups to seek their own best futures, whether they have thought them through well or not! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: M.Ted Date: 24 Sep 02 - 03:30 PM All I know is that brown shirts are unaccountably popular--check the racks at Target if you don"t believe me-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 24 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM First allow me to say that I wasn't targeting you specifically in this thread ranging from the looking for "symptoms of fascism" to those just dropping all pretense of thoughtful understanding and just flat out calling America a fascistic empire. Need some be reminded that there would be *no* tolerance for ,let alone broadcast forums, of equally critical debate in a true fascist state as exists elsewhere in the world as we speak. Blurring the meanings for the sake of giving in to getting one's personal *ideological* rocks off serves nothing constructive. ( Not you,Amos. Just the "America: Always Wrong" Amen Choir ) That said: (quote) "I don't understand your last sentence. What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? Isreal is already practicing a kind of flirting with a "final solution" in response to Palestinian acts of terrorism that is openly being rewarded with hard cash from Saddam's treasury. The far right wing Likud party in control of Isreal is not exactly a "shrinking violet" when it comes to pushing the envalope of the biblical exacting an "Eye for an eye" to a Gen.William Tecumseh Sherman degree and proven to be willing to back it up in spades. Just as good ol' Lady Maggie Thatcher is historically credited as infusing some steel in G.Bush,Sr's spine on going after Saddam after he had already crossed over into Kuwait , the very influential Pro-Isreali Lobby has been expertly massaged , even incited, by the rhetoric of likes of Ariel Sharon and BB Netanyahuand their fellow-travelers. I immediately found this level of oppurtunistic political fomenting really rather disgusting to watch . Netanyahu appeared on our airwaves , and still does now ,regularly using the 9/11 attack as the oppurtunity to " See what we have to live with. Now you understand terror and you can do something about it". This seizing upon an oppurtunity to goad us into taking swift and decisive military action and then finish the job continues as you see debated now.. The term "kibitzing" is a particularly New York yiddish idiom meaning to artfully influence , incite and/or direct behind the scenes or while someone looking over their shoulder as in a card game . Euros are more acquainted with this passtime en masse' as spectators at any soccer match where the term "hooliganism" gained new currency. A more Amercian colloquialism would be "backseat driver" or "armchair warrior". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: wilco Date: 24 Sep 02 - 12:00 PM Hyperbole is not to be taken seriously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:55 AM Let's also be clear that Saddam's Ba'ath party is about as ultimately Fascistic, dictatorial and ham-fisted as any group of power-hungry eejits ever was. We're talking about offenses against decency of a deep order -- the execution of co-revolutionaries, the suppression of any dissent, the mother of all Big Brother operations. Blair's white paper on the history and current capabilities of Iraq is of greast interest. It can be downloaded from this site. It is in PDF format. I recommend it to all concerned in the ongoing debate. Just to keep all the cards on the table here, eh? A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:57 AM I don't think, under the second definition, that what I have said is irresponsible. What I said was that sending a nation into war without a clear casus belli qualifies. Demanding unbounded power over military might unparalleled in history qualifies. Setting aside civil rights, discussing internment camps and National Identification systems qualify as symptoms. These points are not fantasy. They come from the Bush apparatus. You are certainly right that there are others far worse in the world. So the fuck what? I would submit that remembering what Facism was and how it came about in Western experience (the rise of Il Duce and Chancellor Shicklgruber) are not exactly ungenuine or ill-informed. I don't understand your last sentence. What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:44 AM (Amos quote) "Talking about particular meanings: Fascism: 1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" Hey Amos , has it occurred to you, and all of the others joining in this "Amercia's gone facist "fantasy of pure Bush-wah, that *Iraq* fits this clinical definition with more considerbly more fidelity? In my book Beijing, China has fit this in spadesfor decades. I'm hardly Bush apologist as my posts can attest ,but for cryin' out loud, these alusions to fascism are really rather *irresponsible* and do more harm than good towards *genuine* informed opposition to this political appetite for War. I'd wager Isreal's Areil Sharon and un-elected right-wing war-monger at-large BeBe Netanyahu are more than thick with kibtzing this fomenting momentum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:28 AM Comparing anyone to Hitler is generally an intellectually lazy and opportunistic cheap shot. It's kind of like ascribing every event you don't like to the power of Satan. Lazy thinking...but it's guaranteed to strike visceral emotions in certain people, and that is usually the intent of the speaker when they raise the name "Hitler". They are actually trying to do pretty much the same thing Hitler tried to do in his speeches to the German people when he raised the twin spectres of "Jews and Communists"...scare people, and inflame their emotions, thus getting them to back him in some ill-considered and reckless action. Be wary of such rhetoric. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Teribus Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:11 AM A couple of people up above referred to a "wee war", and others above have quoted from history
Here's one from the Duke of Wellington: "There is no such thing as a wee war for a great nation."
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Sep 02 - 04:40 AM M.Ted: Was the WTC Bush's Reichstag? He seems to remind many Germans of "You Know Who", and, since they've been there and done that, they are not interested in going again--(note today's election results)-- I disagree with a part of these thoughts: In Germany, the position not to follow the USA in every respect unconditionally is very popular and has contributed to the election result. However, a direct comparison of Bush or even a tiny part of his policy with Hitler('s policy) is seen as a 'guilt by association' rhetorical trick and is very unpopular. Herta Däubler-Gmelin (still minister of justice for a few days, but she won't be in the new cabinet) who has made the comparison (she denies it, but nobody believes her) has lost a virtually unloosable constituency. Serves her well. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:03 PM I'm not real sure about Christians being political non-entities. Not all Christians believe the same thing, especially politically. And not all Christians are fundies. Fundies are just louder. When the Gulf War started, there was a march in Seattle, from St. James Cathedral (Catholic) in downtown Seattle to St. Mark's Cathedral (Episcopalian) on Capitol Hill. All denominations, Christian and otherwise, joined in. Thirty thousand people (that's right—30,000 by police estimate) carrying candles and marching silently and peacefully is pretty damned impressive. Some claimed there were "only" 15,000 people. But still—15,000 people! Similar marches were held all over the country, but as far as I could tell, none of it was carried in the national news. George H. W. Bush was not re-elected in 1992. This past weekend, there was a national meeting of the Lutheran Peace Fellowship in Seattle. One of the delegates—from Texas— stayed at our apartment. There are gatherings of similar faith-based peace groups going on all over the country. Massive marches are likely to happen again, this time even moreso. Now, silent marches may not seem to do much directly, and since they are peaceful (unlike the WTO protests, no one smashes windows or sets fires), the press tends to ignore them. But they express what many people are thinking and feeling. And these people vote. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 03:00 PM yeah Amos, but those PACs are no more effective than any other voting/funding block. In fact, I say they are among the most duped/least influential where policy is concerned. WHERE?!!!......Black helicopters??!! man.....I didn't even see 'em |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:45 PM Now, John. Chill, man. Some of my best friends are Christians!! They are among the most decent, intelligent people I know! 'Course some of the least decent and intelligent people I know like to use the same darned label, so it does get confusing sometimes. But the real thing (as I interpret it) has never been a problem. It's the PACs that worry me, not the individuals. As with all organized religion, individual faith and conscience are never the problem; it is the use of memberships to support various real-world agendae that are outside the scope of faith, hope and charity. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: M.Ted Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM Was the WTC Bush's Reichstag? He seems to remind many Germans of "You Know Who", and, since they've been there and done that, they are not interested in going again--(note today's election results)-- If you think that mention of the Nazis is out of place, remember that Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker made substantial fortunes by financing Hitler's massive industrialization--the money kept flowing in even after the Luftwaffe started its "European Tour"--
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:20 PM you guys gotta get some time away from the internet! ...now off to your rooms all o' you! I'll call you when dinner's ready. Christians are a political non-entity in USA... ...okay, they serve one function -- they are a voting block that some polititians can easily dupe into voting (as Bush did) -- but time and time again they are merely thwarted as soon as (if) their candidate does win. For instance, issue #1 for fundies has been (for 30yrs now) anti-abortion. The first step in that direction has yet to take place, and it never will. And they don't vote very efficiently as a block -- you want wholesale blind followership, look at Black America. 95%+ democrat voting block. If you read as many Christian Kookburger publications as you do Anti-christian kookburger publications, you'd see that Christians -- the "fundamentalist" type you fear so -- constantly write about their abandonment by the likes of Bush. Bush does not empower them, nor do they him. The Christian rags I read are pretty damn conflicted over whether or not we should endorse the "Bush Doctrine". Of course you can find quotes from fundies whom you think make your point but I'll guaran-dam-tee you I can find quotes from Christians who would adamantly disagree. Your charicature of Christianity in 21st century America has little basis in reality. We really don't all have that "extra chromosome". Some of us are even pretty cool....play some pretty mean guitar....like sports, love our kids, eat barbeque, laugh alot. You know.....we're... ...human |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM The following is a brief excerpt from The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich by William L. Schirer:— . . . an underground passage, built to carry the central heating system, ran to the Reichstag building. Through this tunnel Karl Ernst, a former hotel bellhop who had become the Berlin S.A. leader, led a small detachment of storm troopers on the night of February 27 to the Reichstag, where they scattered gasoline and self-igniting chemicals and then made their way quickly back to the palace the way they had come. . . .Later on, Goering proudly admitted that it was not the Bolsheviks who had torched the Reichstag; he had arranged it to frighten the populace into thinking there were dire threats, both internal and external, and that the National Socialist Party was the only entity that had enough backbone to keep them safe. Now, I'm not suggesting for an instant that George W. Bush is, in any way, comparable to Adolf Hitler. Or, for that matter, Julius Caesar. But—he and his policies are certainly doing a good job of paving the way for someone who might be. Chilly winds are blowing from the past. Draw your own conclusions, folks. Don Firth
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:09 PM Heck, with the millions and millions of our tax bucks going to PR you'd expect something other than Junior just shoting from the hip. You can bet that everything he is doing and saying is well rehersed and certain words and phrases have been tested before a control group to determine *effect*. Does anyone really think Junior came up witgh "crawfishing" all by himself. Heck no, he didn't. The PR folk did. They recognize Junior's limitations and strengths and everything he does and says is well thought out to play to his strengths and to play down his weaknesses, which means we're gonna get President Bubba. Another reason that we're getting President Bubba is that the PR firm has also looked at the Peanut Gallery and... ahhhh, guess what? Hey, I've got three step sons who aree all college educated in live in the South. Ask me how many of them are enlightened kids. Nope, not a one. If it isn't fishing, it's NASCAR or football. They've all got big houses, big debt and work like madmen to keep it all together. They are very much like most of the folks in that Peanut Gallery for which Junior's PR folks have him playing. Seems like the PR folk have pretty much written off enlightened folks which I find distastefull. Guess, they figure that since there's really no logical reason to attack Iraq, there's no point in trying to sell it to folks whose lives are defined somewhat beyound the #3 Car or bass fishing. Hey, nothing against that stuff but in the big scheme of things, like war, that stuff seems pretty superficial. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:06 PM His request for carte blanche discretionarty power over the biggest killing machine is unconscionable, and if congr4ess supports him in this power grab it will be the gloomiest day on the Hill since John Kennedy died. He creates the image of one who will dop anything to acquire power. As regards demagoguery, don't be fooled; his illiteracy is right on the rhetorical wavelength of a lot of people. He is willing to bend the highest sounding phrases to what seem to me to be unscrupulous ends. Nicole -- your choice of words is interesting. I think it would be nice to put Bush and his weasels into the Big House, instead of the White House. ("Big House" is a 1930's-era slang term used by convicts for the Leavenworth, KS, Federal Prison, I think). I suspect he will push this country right to the brink and a grass-roots backlash will spread to the point he can't handle it. None of this is meant to trivialize the problem of Saddam Hussein, or the other repositories of ill-will we have created over the last century. But I do not care for Bush's approach much at all. Maybe we should offer Saddam a nice beer joint in Tijuana to manage. HE would be much happier there, and we could probably arrange a new identity for him. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: NicoleC Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:53 PM I gotta agree... the Shrub, a demogogue? Maybe at 3:42am while he's sound asleep! I think the Shrub would like to see himself as the benevolent dictator of the all-powerful US Christian oligarchy. It hasn't happened yet, but the progress in that direction has speeded up considerably in the past couple of years. It makes all those cautionary political tales like "The Handmaid's Tale" and "Revolt in 2120" look possible in my lifetime. But most days I have faith that Americans are still, down deep, the kind of rebellious cusses that won't stand still for it. I don't think Shrub himself is dangerous, but he is a dangerous tool. Because he's perceived as not-too-bright, the Bush administration gets away with not being taken too seriously while they go about actually using the power of the Executive branch. As long as the administration is seen as basically harmless and inept, they can get away with being very, very dangerous. And any time they get caught screwing up, Shrub can get all bashful and use a bunch of made-up folkisms until you can't stand to listen to him speak another word. "We'll forgive you is you just shut up." I think you underestimate the machinations of political power in this country if you think that the President himself is that powerful. The office *could* be wielded by a person who was charismatic and used the position to exert genuine power, but the nomination process of each political party weeds out the ones who won't toe the line properly. It also, I think, weeds out the best and brightest -- the ones who might be able to think in fresh and creative ways. I have mixed feelings about this. Our system very carefully preserves the status quo -- as the system of checks and balances fails and Congress gets progressively weaker, and the judiciary appointment process becomes about political connections instead of allowing judges the freedom to make non-partisan choices -- the election process has grown more complex and has stepped in to serve as ballast. The boat will only rock so far unless it gets deliberately tipped over. And while those of us on either side of the political spectrum might disagree about the radicial/reactionary changes we might want to make... do we really want to take the risk that the OTHER side might get their leader in the big house instead? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Mudlark Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:49 PM MAG...I've watched Bush soundless and he looks like a shifty-eyed weasel. And that's BEFORE I heard what he was saying. I'm so far out of the mainstream I have no idea what sways most people, but to my eye, as well as my ear, Bush isn't it. I think he's got the nod because the U.S., so insular in it's size and might, was able to deny the growing threat of terrorism...until 9/11 tore away our defensive blindness. The reaction is to want to strike out, retaliate, obliterate the threat so we can all go back to feeling comfortable again. And that's what concerns me the most about this country, this mindless search for the easy (and self-righteous) answer...which is what Bush is giving us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:59 PM He is very persuasive in his pulpit. He uses his own incorrectness to poke fun at eggheads (ie, anyone who says Think!) with his "Just Folks" style. Watch him with the sound off if you don't think he's a master rhetorician. I think this is why he got the nod. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:55 PM "Dubya couldn't be more of a demagogue -- inflated thetoric swaying people with emotion and whipping them into a mob." and again I say... BUSH??.....George Bush???.......George W. Bush????... you godda be shittin' me. This is the guy who couldn't talk his way outta a open paper bag. Does "stratejery", "nucular", "dignitude" etc. sound familiar? Again, Ya just shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways -- he can't be the crowd-frenzying demagogue, while simultaneously the dictional idiot.
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:38 PM Dubya couldn't be more of a demagogue -- inflated thetoric swaying people with emotion and whipping them into a mob. What can we do but urge caution, slow down, figure out what questions to ask, and back those who do?
(Do we really want to occupy Iraq indefinitely? Keep asking. Now if you want to see a real rant, ask me about the war against Arafat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 23 Sep 02 - 10:01 AM Talking about particular meanings: Fascism: 1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control In the latter sense, there are clearcut symptoms in the present Administration. Granted they have backpedaled. Don't forget that until recently they were all in favor of a unilateral war against Iraq, and it was only popular pressure that made them go through the United Nations. In my book, sending a nation into war without clear, documented and factual casus belli definitely qualifies. John -- you are on a roll these days, man! LOL! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:53 AM "Unfortunately, John, a lot of the same folks...
Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: The Pooka Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:42 AM Paddymac & Greg F -- HAHAHA whoopee! "And if Mommy is a Commie then ya gotta turn her in." / An even better one, sez I---also the CMTrio I *think* -- was "Barry's Boys". I loved it -- and waaaay back then in my misspent youth, I was one of 'em! (Yeah you could tell, couldn't you? I've reformed, I tell yez. / Well. Mostly. Like Catholic upbringing, some of that stuff never quite goes away...:) --Wm. F. Pookley Jr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 23 Sep 02 - 08:25 AM Whoops! HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Greg F. (remote machine) Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:57 AM Yup- it was Chad Mitchell:
Oh we're the John Birch Society
Think I've got the rest around somewhere- I'll look
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 23 Sep 02 - 02:43 AM A 'wee war' Boab? Is that like kids seeing who can piss higher up a wall? BJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: paddymac Date: 23 Sep 02 - 01:27 AM So, finally, the topic tirns to music. Remember that brilliant song about the John Birch Society. I think it was recorded by the Chad Mitchell Trio. Anybody know for sure? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Boab Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:51 AM Maybe Bush and his cohorts realise that only a "wee war" will prevent his party's minority in US government becoming a good deal more notable; he hasn't presided over a prosperous spell in his diocese, after all. And it did wonders for Maggie Thatcher------ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: The Pooka Date: 23 Sep 02 - 12:24 AM Gentlemen, gentlemen. I am no Bushie. But Fascism has a fairly particular meaning. Neither Bush, nor his supposed puppetmasters (and I wouldn't be so sure about that part, fellers), nor the United States generally, fits it. Nowhere near. Today in my local newspaper a law professor declared that President Bush is the most dangerous man on earth. Tomorrow, that professor will be back teaching his classes at Yale---and receiving applause, too. This does not occur in fascist countries. Such as, just for example, Iraq. / The John Birch Society has been cited. The mortal sin of the Birchers was to classify everyone who disagreed with their paranoid views (including President Eisenhower) as Communists, or at best "fellow travellers". Now, Communism has a fairly particular meaning; and neither Eisenhower, nor most other nonBirchies, fit it. // Therefore: may we debate these important issues without calling names? Especially when the names are, well, stupid? / Thanks. (btw I'm founding an advocacy group for the restoration of wooden toilet seats. The Birch John Society.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:52 PM The diferenceis that one man is acting somewhat Facistic, with all the jingoism and blind adherence that often entails, but he is doing it under legal and political constraints that will not allow him to break the balance of wills imposed by the bicameral representative government and the only semi-corrupted judiciary and the unpredictable big ace of popular voice. As regards the latter, NEVER underestimate what it is capable of. Ask Yamamoto. Ask Tom Dewey. That we are presently walking around dressed as a nation of shoppers and TV heads is a tragedy of appearance, but it is not yet a tragedy of substance. Different people awake at different times, but wakening, like hypnotism, is contagious. And we are very used to thinking of ourselves as free, and capable of deciding issues. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:41 PM Unfortunately, John, a lot of the same folks... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:38 PM I am reminded...and I am ALL for it.
Because I WILL BE on the winning side.
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:32 PM Scholarship and communicativeness |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:17 PM so who was Clinton's puppetmaster? (asking almost afraid to hear the answer) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:03 PM The office of the President of the United States, in this day and age, is very much like a magician's left hand. The hand waves about drawing the attention of the audience while the right hand performs the trick. The primary function of ANYONE holding that office is that of a shill. He is a mere carnival barker. Keep your eyes on the fingers of the right hand -- Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, etc. These are the peoplesetting and executing policy. These are the people who wield the power. Dubya's job is draw our attention away from them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:54 PM Problem was, that the John Birch Society thought that a bunch of folks with no money, no empowerment, no ties to the ruling classs, but just a hodge podge of antiwar activists and civil rights workers were going to take over the world. Yeah right! Hahahahahah! Give my poor Wes Ginny butt a break. That dog don't hunt. Might of fact. that dog died a long time ago when it became very apparent taht a bunch of hippies and Negros, ahhhh, might effect some social change, but weren't *quite* up the task of taking over the world, nor did they want to, for that matter. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:46 PM ...hey, I remember reading about this grand scheme of world domination somewhere. Now where was that?... ...Oh yeah! The John Birch Society newsletter! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:30 PM GregF: You are absolutely right. And the worst thing about it is... one was able to follow the money trail, which ain't easy...it would lead right to those memebrs to the ruling class who are the real bosses. Junior has never shown any great ability to do much of anything and folks, by the time they are his age, should have accomplishments that they can point to and say, "Hey, I did that!" He can't because he's never done a danged thing. He's had everything given to him. Everything. And left to his own devices has screwed up pretty much everything that has been given to him. He was given an oil company which went down the tubes, but not before he sucked $800,000 out of on the way down. And now he's been given tjhe White House bu his daddy's Supreme Courth justices and now he is indeed doing waht he is told.. It would be real interesting to know who is doing all the telling. We do know that Rumsfield is the go between, that's rather obvious. Yeah, you find those folks and I'll guarentee you you'll find some folks with strong fascist leanings... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Greg F. Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:12 PM Not at all - Bush is still an idiot, and a figurehead. Its his handlers making his mouth move- and they're the scary ones. Dumbya is a third-rate nonentity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:57 PM the obit America thread works on some level for me -- that is, our government, in the form of congressional approval, has advanced the Bush Doctrine. I theory at least, this does compromise the initial concept of our form of gov't. this, on the other hand does not work for me. I could go back an link to any number of threads in which the proponderance of posters here have repeatedly characterized Bush as a hapless, bumbling, pretzel-choking, malaproping........idiot. And now we're to believe that he suddenly turned on a dime and is the next Kahn? one or t'other folks, please. yer makin' me dizzy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:29 PM I also think the Roman Empire analogy is by far the better one. As for appeasement, no heavily armed aggressor looking for new conquests has ever favoured that concept, and those arguing for peace will always be accused of it...or accused of worse...as Yamamoto was when he urged the Japanese not to enter a war with the USA. He was called "coward" and "traitor" for that. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: michaelr Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:55 PM Amos -- care to elaborate on the differences, then? Michael |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:40 PM Well, the laddie Bush I take it michaelr is compoaring Bush to wasn't exactly into appeasement either. "My patience is exhausted" was the kind of thing he used to say.
But I don't think the parallels should be stretched too far. I think the Roman Emperor analogies work better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM Michael: There were several threads in the last six months that touched onthe Facistic overtone of some of Bush's attitudes from time to time. The simiolarities are certainly unsettling, But the differences are more important, i think. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:03 PM Hey, at least the United States isn't into appeasement. I seem to recall a good bit of that happening in the late 30's. |
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Subject: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: michaelr Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:56 PM Sorry if this overlaps with another thread thematically, but I was wondering: Now that "President" Bush has published his official blueprint for world domination, is anyone else ominously reminded of developments in Germany, c. 1930s? Michael |
