Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 03 - 07:27 AM

Just been back to the shop and the lad who put the second hard drive in is going to sort things, and I've booked it in for Sunday - he reckons that it needs that program to introduce it to Windows, and he'll give me a copy when I pick it up after he'sed it. Touch wood.

Thanks, people, for holding my hand. Anyway I think I know a bit more about what's involved than before. Mind, that's still not all that much.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 02:13 PM

McGrath, you'll really have to remove the 40Gb disk (or slide it out) to get the makers details (Seagate, Maxtor etc.) and then you could search for the boot disk. Your CD wasn't showing up on the details you supplied that's why I asked how you were loading Windows.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 02:08 PM

I'm hesitant take my problem to a computer-techie forum like that though - on the Mudcat it's more accepted that being very limited in knokwledge or understanding of computers does not mean you are a lower form of life, and that doesn't apply everywhere.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 02:02 PM

That looks interesting, sorefingers, even aside from the picture, and I'll bookmark it for sure.

Only problem is summed up in the first paragraph of the Read1st: "The majority of tips, tweaks, files, bootdisks, instructions, utilities, links, patches, updates, and all other information contained on this site are posted for experienced DOS and Windows users."

Looking through the stuff there I was very conscious that that I don't really qualify for that description. There were bits I could understand, and bits I reckon I could use to solve other problems (such as the one I'm having with a Modem that I don't use, but which is still in my computer and I need to find some drivers so I could use it again). But I couldn't spot where I could find a download that would solve this problems with accessing the hard disc.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 10:57 AM

www.bootdisk.com

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 07:21 AM

No trace of that putative floppy which John of Kansas reckons I need. I'll probably head on down to PC World to see if they can let me have one - though getting hold of anyone who knows what they are talking about and has the time and inclination to help can be a problem.

Alternatively I could try hunting around on the internet to see if I could download something to do the trick. If I was sure what to be looking for. Typically the label on then drive is hidden, though I can see an identification number 3902C585 - and the receipt just says "40 GB 5400".

Ah well.At least I've now managed to get the PC to recognise my USB hub, and my printer is back on line.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 06:41 AM

I should clarify my last post. John in K may well be right that Windows does need a driver to read the disk correctly but I stick by my interpretation that "Generic IDE disk type 80" is the "missing" hard disk. Windows probably thinks that is a good enough match for the disk.

I had some fun and games when I put my hard disk into a new computer which had a card reader built in. Windows kindly detected it for me and installed a "Bulk USB storage device" and a single drive F: It took me ages to realise that Windows was WRONG and that I needed run a separate installation program on the motherboard CD to get the correct drivers and correct device (IC card reader) recognised.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 06:29 AM

I imagine the people of Baghdad and the other cities in Iraq that have been without hard disks and services now for months will be getting some wry satisfaction from hearing about this.

That is a reference to a post I made in the thread about the big US/ Canada power cut. True enough, my hard disc is a small enough trouble, and I'm quite aware of it. However don't imagine that Baghdad doesn't have its Internet users - particularly Salam Pax "the Baghdad Blogger"

And here is a piece from him in The Guardian

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 06:13 AM

McGrath says: "Secondary controller opens up to give Generic IDE Disc Type 80 and LG CD-RW CED-8080B". Looks to me like Windows Control Panel does see 2 Devices on the Secondary IDE channel.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 01:35 AM

Ok now that you have discovered an IDE CD drive probably on Controller No 2, you might when the computer is booting up press the Scroll Lock key on the keyboard so that you can read what the BIOS is seeing, and to discover whether it thinks there is BOTH a CD and the second Hard Drive. If yes then the problem is stupid old winderz if no then
you must shut down the dog and shoot the cat with a paint brush, later
when the Drives are all lying on the floor covered with dog poo and
cat pee, look on the internet for their specifications where the
makers nowadays go to vast expense to explain in excrucaitingly booring detail where the F**ng jumper/dipswitch etc are to reset
drives to Master or Slave. Then having wisely selected SLAVE on the
new Hard Drive you may reassemble everything, reboot and shooting the
cat with the now rock hard dogs poop you may be rid of the dog as well
feeding the dead cat to it.

Perfectly plainly confusingly stupidly wrongly ... ended.


When I click on Properties for boith the IDE discs the screen that pops up declares in both cases that "this device is working
properly". But there's no way of accessing the second disc from within Windows so far as I can see. Most frustrating. And the
CD-Rom Disc is still labelled as Drive D, whereas before the reinstall it was Drive E, with the second hard disc as Drive D.

I was wondering whether there's anything useful to be done via System Information under System Tools?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
ET


Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 07:59 PM

McGrath,

Your D: label for the CD is probably because Windows is not recognising the hard disk. (Yes, Windows is quite capable of
recognising a device exits at hardware/control panel level but not putting a drive letter in Explorer as it doesn't know how to
read it)

As far as i can see, with everything properly recognised, your set up is:

Primary Master: 10Gb HD
Secondary Master: 40Gb HD
Secondary Slave: CD ROM

A plan you could try is to go through another Windows install but this time do not remove the cable.

Jon

________________________________________________

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 11:24 PM

Mc G

The primary hard drive is being recognized by Windows. The secondary IDE controller is showing you your CD-R/W drive, which is pretty normal. There is NO indication in what you posted above (15 Aug 03 - 07:17 PM)about the controller that Windows sees your second hard drive, and IT WILL NOT DO SO UNTIL YOU DO (or re-do) THE SOFTWARE INSTALLATION for the second hard drive.

There is a (remote) possibility that you could force Windows to find the second hard drive by going into Windows Explorer, selecting Tools, and "MAP NETWORK DRIVE." There is the option to have it "search" for unidentified drives; but even if it finds this drive IT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO READ FROM IT UNTIL YOU DO THE SOFTWARE INSTALLATION for that second hard drive.

Relax until you find the disk.

Re the "coming" obsolescence of Win98 mentioned by someone else above: it's already here. Microsoft has announced some months ago that Win98 is considered an "unsupported system." There will be no "new" fixes specific to Win98, although there will continue (for an unspecified time) to be a download site for existing ones, and applicable updates to other systems (that are generic enough to work with Win98) will/may be available there. It's still a good, and usable, operating system; but upgrading is something to be considered. Of the available Mickey$oft systems, WinXP is by far the preferred upgrade for most individual users (IMHO). I wouldn't bother with WinME, and Win2K is "too big" for most of us.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,Gates
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:36 PM

I imagine the people of Baghdad and the other cities in Iraq that have been without hard disks and services now for months will be getting some wry satisfaction from hearing about this.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:29 PM

It shouldn't touch it McGrath. Just be sure, as it seems you are that your main disk is drive C: and set your install to the default (C:\Windows on 98) directory.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:23 PM

But wouldn't a reinstall without disconnecting the secind hard disc that risk losing the stuff on it? That was the reason I disconected it in the first place.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:00 PM

And set the BIOS up to auto detect first.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 07:59 PM

McGrath,

Your D: label for the CD is probably because Windows is not recognising the hard disk. (Yes, Windows is quite capable of recognising a device exits at hardware/control panel level but not putting a drive letter in Explorer as it doesn't know how to read it)

As far as i can see, with everything properly recognised, your set up is:

Primary Master: 10Gb HD
Secondary Master: 40Gb HD
Secondary Slave: CD ROM

A plan you could try is to go through another Windows install but this time do not remove the cable.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 07:17 PM

Just been having another look into System/Device Manager, and this time I clicked the option for "view devices by connection".

Clicking on PCI Bus opens up "Via Bus Master PCI IDE controller", and this opens up two further icons - "Primary IDE controller (dual fifo) and Secondary IDE controller (dual fifo)". The Primary controller opens up to give Generic IDE Disc Type 46, and the Secondary controller opens up to give Generic IDE Disc Type 80 and LG CD-RW CED-8080B.

When I click on Properties for boith the IDE discs the screen that pops up declares in both cases that "this device is working properly". But there's no way of accessing the second disc from within Windows so far as I can see. Most frustrating. And the CD-Rom Disc is still labelled as Drive D, whereas before the reinstall it was Drive E, with the second hard disc as Drive D.

I was wondering whether there's anything useful to be done via System Information under System Tools?

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:41 PM

Too right, Amos!

I'll have to work through that stuff to make sense of it.

I reinstated Windows using a disc that came with the computer that restores the origibal system, not a Windows 98 disc as such. Of course the second disc wasn't there in the original system. I might have a floppy with the drive manager on it for all I know, but I've never noticed it - otherwise I'll go back and ask the people who installed it.

The advice about deleting the discs from Device Manager sounds interesting - though the term given there is "remove" which doesn;t sound quite so drastic. Is the idea that when they are removed and I reboot they might turn up back in My Computer as well? Computers do seem to have the strangest ways of acting.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:38 PM

Agree with all the above. Upgrading your version of Windows to 2Kk or ME would also re-find the drives and re-create the boot sector. As 2003 is about to be launched(?!?!?!) and 98 could be obsolete upgrading could be a good idea anyway. But then we get into all the upgrades for your drivers and BIOS etc. As I said before, if unsure, find someone nearby who is!

Good luck:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:02 PM

Wow. Complex little system, eh?

A

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 05:16 PM

McG

When your second hard drive was installed, a small "management" program was probably installed on the first drive. While it is theoretically "possible" for Windows to do a default setup to read a "new" drive, it almost never works satisfactorily, so the drive manufacturers provide their own "mapping" utilities.

The "management" program for the drive would probably have been installed in Windows/System folder, and when you reinstalled Windows, the program was not replaced. Also, any registry entry to tell Windows to read the "new" drive would be missing.

You must, now, REINSTALL THE NEW HARD DRAVE MANAGER. If you had someone install the drive for you, they should have given you a floppy disk with the drive manager on it. If they didn't, you can ask them for it, or - for most drive manufacturers - you should be able to download it from the manufacturer's site.

Windows 98 can "autoinstall" a hard drive that it recognizes on boot, and has default drive managers, but only for drives smaller than 20 or 30 MB. If you installed any of the commonly available "larger" drives, the new one is 30 to 120 GB. (NOT MB). Any drive larger than about 30 MB requires a drive-specific "mapper" to tell Windows how to read it.

Reinstalling Windows would not make changes to the BIOS settings, so you are "seeing the drive" during boot because the original manager installation made the appropriate BIOS changes for you. That has nothing to do with Windows. Windows simply doesn't know how to read the drive, because the required software was removed by the Windows reinstall.

The BIOS settings that are being reported indicate an "unusual" configuration, but that's between you and whoever installed it for you. There may have been a reason for the way it is, probably due to other installed hardware; but best hard drive performance is normally obtained if both drives are on the same ribbon from the EIDE controller, in which case one of them must be set (jumpered) as a "slave" or "secondary" drive. If you already had something like a CD drive/burner on the second ribbon connector with the original hard drive, some installers will "punt" the installation and put a new hard drive wherever there's a connector...

Re-do the SOFTWARE part of the installation for the "new" drive. It's not a Windows problem.

(probably)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 02:33 PM

McGrath, Old Possum's posting is very accurate and helpful but I am curious to know how you reinstalled Windows. Did you use floppies or what?
Jim

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: OldPossum
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 02:21 PM

McGrath of Harlow wrote (at 14 Aug 03 - 06:43 PM):

I pulled out the connection with the coloured wires before reinstalling windows, and pushed it back in after. Didn't touch the ribbon connector. (I have a horrible suspecion maybe I should have disconnected both...)

Yes I think you should have disconnected both. I seem to remember having trouble myself with hard disks if I only disconnected the power connector. (NB: Only connect and disconnect the connectors when your PC is shut down and powered off).

McGrath again (at 14 Aug 03 - 08:12 PM):
Standard CMOS SETUP

Hard disks type size cyls head precomp lands sector mode
Primary master user 10200 1240 255 0 19772 63 LBA
Primary slave 0 0 0 0 0 0 ----
Secondary Master user 40018 4865 255 0 1957 63 LBA
secondary slave - 0 (etc) Auto

and below there are ihe instructions for navigating this screen, and changing the bits in italics. Looking at it, it measn very little to me - I wondered whether there is some problem about it being Primary Master and Secondary Master, and one of them should be a slave? And did I put the right connection back - there are two identical ones (and I've tried both to no effect)

About the master/slave question: Having both hard disks as master is perfectly normal. Many PCs are equipped with two hard disk controllers, each of which can handle a master hard disk and also a slave hard disk, giving the possibility of a total of four hard disks (CD-drives etc. also count as hard disks in this context). Anyway the main thing is that, since it worked before, there is no need to change from master to slave or vice-versa. In fact, doing so will only add to the confusion, since on some disks you may have to fiddle with jumpers to change between master/slave mode. NicoleC is clearly writing from experience :-)

But before we continue it is perhaps a good idea to settle once and for all whether your second hard disk is in fact a master or a slave. The text you copied above says that it is a (secondary) master - secondary simply means that it is connected to controller number 2 - but you wrote somewhere else that, at one point during startup it reported that the slave drive was gone. So we need to know what is going on. But since you still haven't (I presume) removed the ribbon connector, we can answer this question simply by looking at the ribbon connector for your second hard disk. Follow it from the hard disk and see where it goes. If it goes to the motherboard and nothing else is connected to the same ribbon connector, it is a master (there will probably be an extra empty plug on the same ribbon - that is as it should be). On the other hand, if the ribbon leads to the first hard disk (or a CD drive or whatever) before it continues to the motherboard, in that case it is a slave (and in that case both plugs on the ribbon will be in use). Please let us know what you find. Also: do you have a CD-drive (or DVD-drive or whatever)? If you do, is it still working?

GUEST (Jon Freeman I think) at 15 Aug 03 - 09:04 AM:
Try deleting all your hard disks in Control Panel and rebooting. Windows should find them again.

Good advice (and will probably also get you out of Safe Mode). Don't worry about deleting the hard disks. They are plug-and-play and will simply be re-installed when you re-boot your PC. Also, see if you can delete whatever you added with the Add New Hardware feature. It was worth a try, but obviously didn't do the trick, so might as well clean it out again. The Add New Hardware is really only needed for old bits of hardware, from before plug-and-play. Hard disks of 10Gb and 40 Gb are sure to be plug-and-play! :-)

Before I forget: During re-install you might be prompted for the location of the driver files. If so, just choose the C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM folder, which is where the existing driver files are stored. I they can't be found there, you may have to let your PC search the installation disk for them. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 09:04 AM

McGrath, the plugs you are talking about are the power cables for the drives. All the ones of the same size are the same. In any case, the BIOS wouldn't even find the drive and possibly the system wouldn't even reach the point of trying to boot Windows if there were prolems at that level.

Try deleting all your hard disks in Control Panel and rebooting. Windows should find them again.

Jon

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 08:27 AM

I just tried that, Dave, and it changed as you said. Only trouble is the coimputer wouldn't start except in safe mode - in safe mode there was now an icon in Systems/Device Manager for Hard drives - with Generic IDE Type 46 twice, Generic IDE Drive 47 and Genereic IDE 80.

Anyway I removed one of the 46s and tried again. It still wouldn't reboot except in safe mode, so I went back into BIOS and undid the change back to User and tried again.   Now I've found that the Icon for drives in Device Manager is still there - and it has Generic IDE Type 46 and 80 as well as the floppy. But still no sign of the second drive under My Computer, so I can't access it.

Anyway it feels as if messing around in BIOS is the right way rather than with the hardware - unless I did put the wrong plastic plug in and that is interfering.

Thanks folks. Touch wood we're getting somewhere. And now I've got to go out and do some shopping, so if there are any helpful suggestions it'll be a few hours before I get to see them. The Mudcat is bloody marvellous!

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 07:20 AM

In your listing, Kevin, it shows 'user' under the 'type' column. It is there it is USUALY (no such thing as standard in the IT world!) changed.

In the setup screen you would highlight that field and, normaly, press the enter key (or something else - see note above about standards...) which then gives a list of what you can set. One of them should be 'auto'. Select this and press enter again. All the 'size, cyls, heads' etc. info will then be blanked out. Save and exit and Bob's your Uncle. Or Aunty depending on whether your BIOS is gender specific...

WARNING. Messing with other BIOS settings could screw your computer (technical term). If unsure take it to wherever you got it from.

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:57 AM

So on that copy of the "standard set up" I posted up there, would that suggestion you made Jon mean I should change the setting under "mode" for the Secondary Master from "LBA" to "Auto"? Or what?

I want to get it back to how it was before, even if some other way of doing it would be better in theory. As I said, the two drives were working fine before I had to reinstall windows because of the problem with the registry. (Or rather, because the man on the helpline said it needed to be done as the only way of getting back my cursor, indicating that "your registry is corrupted" which sounds very unpleasant).

And the only thing I moved was that litle plastic plug with the multi-coloured wires which I pulled out before reinstalling windows, and later replaced (or maybe I replaced it with the identical one hanging next to it). All the jumpers and the ribbon cables and so forth have not been touched.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:32 AM

And if you do feel like trying to change what was working before, I would agree with Dave. That is run the larger disk as a slave on the primary master.

I think the most common setup with 2 hard disks (and certainly the one I prefer to use) is to have the 2 disks on the primary and use the secondary for devices like a CD.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:24 AM

McGrath, when you enter the BIOS and enter your "Standard Setup" where you view the disk details, you should be able to change some settings. One of the options for each disk is usually to configure it manually or have it detected automatically on start up. "Auto" settings provide a bit of a "safety net" as if you did change your physical set up (I mean the cables and jumpers to/on your hard disks) the system will detect the changes.

With a working system, my own preference is to use manual settings (having let the system tell me what the disks are) as it gives a slightly faster startup.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:06 AM

I don't begin to understand most of this, but it's very good to have people with helpful advice even ehen I don't know what it means.

I'm pretty sure my connections are good connections, though I'm not sure about whether I've got the right power cable (that's the little plastic one with multi-coloured ribbons on it? - that's the only one I've disturbed, and there are two identical ones to choose from).

"Setting the IDE channels to autodetect in the BIOS" - that sounds very like the stuff they say Star Trek to me. What does it mean I should do?

I tried the add new hardware option - the wizard didn't detect anything relevant. When I went through the listy of possible devices the only one that seemed relevant was "hardware controller", so I clicked for that, and it said "you are using other devices that conflict with the hardware you are trying to install.

I think I should offer my services to the people who put out computer books with insulting titles ("idiots", "dummies") as a quality controller. If I didn't understand what they write, the books wouldn't qualify as kosher.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 05:40 AM

Re-check any connections you made/unmade. Bent pins are a lot more common than you think:-( But if you only disconnected the power cable it should be OK. (They'd be a bit of a bugger to bend!)

From your output you have a 10Gb primary IDE master and a 40Gb secondary IDE master. I would put them both, or have them put, on the Primary IDE as master and slave. This does mean setting the jumpers as described above but you will end up with a more common setup and it would become easier to troubleshoot.

I would also concur with the comment about setting the IDE channels to auto-detect in the BIOS. I would offer to help physicaly if I was a bit nearer but I am sure you can manage it yourself, Kevin:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 05:10 AM

Have you tried the Add New Hardware to see if it can detect the drive when doing Searching For New Hardware. If it can detect it, it should be able to install it.

Failing that, there are some 3rd party disk utilities that are good at doing that sort of thing. (assuming cabling is correct, which, ig you only disconnected on cable and then replaced it, it should be). I have one somewhere, but it's years since I used it and I can't remember where or what it is.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 04:27 AM

Sorry, for my earlier no-help post - If I'd read the intial description properly, I could have saved myself some time. Leave the jumpers alone.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:56 PM

Geeze, I'm glad I don't have to screw around with these issues....


A

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:48 PM

Ok ... most common cause of Don Joe screwing this one up would be...
not noticing the CD connected to the SAME ribbon cable..

But I keep saying the same old stuff ova and ova...

If there was a serious hardware problem it would not boot, so my bet is on the CD!

John if you need a Disk washer, get Seagate's free utility, fills em up with zeros. Then fdisk it or whatever you want to do with it.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:36 PM

Check into PCPartition or PARTITION MAGIC

-

Also read Norton's Website.

You should end up with MORE than a C and a D 98 has difficulty recognizing areas on the more modern HDs.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It is a KUDO to Max and his crew that they have not gotten suckered into multiples of simple "SYSTEMS" questions and thereby "MORPHED" into a techie board.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:16 PM

I'll give you my own recent gem which is apparently well known... (and unrelated I think to McGrath's problems)

I wanted to get a hard disk I'd set up for Linux back to Windows 98 (FAT 32). The trusty FDISk Gives you this scenario:

"Cannot delete Extended DOS Partition while logical drives exist"

Try to delete the logical drives you get "No logical drives defined", etc, view - "no logical drives to view"...

I found the 3rd party command line tool aefdisk very helpful.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:11 PM

Another thought -- does your BIOS have an auto-detect option? And as for what I said about masters and slaves, you should try and remember what you had. I wasn't thinking straight :) If you only have one IDE channel (quite likely, with the age of your computer), it needs to be a slave on channel 0.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:07 PM

No problem with that Amos. It's just set by cables and jumpers. Not a config I'd use though.

If BIOS is detecting a disk but Windows is not, it is often a case of formats changing, e.g. even my Windows 2000 pro is too stupid to see a linux disk even though my Linux can recognise FAT32 and NTFS...

That doesn't seem to be the case here though (unless McGrath managed 98 on the first disk and it had something like 2000 under FAT32. 98 is too stupid even to work out it's own cousin - NT file system).

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 09:48 PM

It's fine to have a secondary drive as it's own -- no need to slave. Question is, was it a slave before or just another drive; either way is fine but it would affect the jumpers. I strongly suspect your jumpers are fine so I wouldn't mess with them. Losing one in the carpet is a bear!

The connection you unplugged sounds like the power cable, so as long as the connector fits, it wouldn't matter which one you used. I am drawing a total blank on Win 98 right now -- I managed to mostly skip that OS. I know what I would TRY first, but it's the kind of thing I wouldn't want to tell a novice to try; too risky. Maybe JohninKansas will log on tonight. He seems to know or dig up quickly the obscure stuff.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:43 PM

Amos sure it is right, he would have connected the new drive to the 2nd controller, otherwise Bios would list it on the first one.

The mode LBA etc is not relevant at this point since you have not managed to write the boot sectors.

Let the Bios boot up deal do its stuff just make sure you are not trying to connect both a CD/DVD and HD on the same address - ie both of the set to master!

If in doubt dont turn on until you find out which is which. The HD will have a little picture on the label showing you where the jumper is and what it should be for SLAVE

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:38 PM

This used happen to me before I invested in some decent backup options like Netsave etc.
No More

You may have a CD or DVD on the same controller as your new drive and that would make winders very confused thinking it to be the cd!

Try setting the jumper to Slave, also make sure your ribbon cables and power cords are in good order. Power cords must all be replaced with a new power supply, the cables are separates.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:28 PM

Seems odd to me that disk 2 is set to secondary master rather than primary slave. Anyone know if that's right?

A

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:22 PM

And my scribble is terrible - I think that it's LBA , but it might be CBA - and that final Auto might be Uto But I don't think so.

And it's after midnight now here, so that's it for now. Maybe with the time difference across the Atlantic and Australia and all I'll wake up and it'll all be crystal clear...

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:12 PM

If I'd installed the disc today, that could be the answer Steven - but the new disc (which is the secondary one) has been in place since the beginning of the year with no problems, and I haven't done anything to change the jumpers which were set when it was installed, so I don't think that could be the problem.

I pushed the key for acessing SETUP, and went on to this screen more or less:

Standard CMOS SETUP

Hard disks       type    size      cyls   head   precomp   lands   sector mode
Primary master   user 10200 1240 255         0       19772       63      LBA
Primary slave         0         0    0          0               0                0       ----         
Secondary Master user 40018 4865    255      0    1957             63      LBA    
secondary slave - 0 (etc)                                                             Auto

and below there are ihe instructions for navigating this screen, and changing the bits in italics. Looking at it, it measn very little to me - I wondered whether there is some problem about it being Primary Master and Secondary Master, and one of them should be a slave? And did I put the right connection back - there are two identical ones (and I've tried both to no effect)

But perhaps the wise ones of the Cat can enlighten me?

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:11 PM

Well, if the slave was visible and operational, the jumpers were set okay before the disconnect.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 07:14 PM

WHen you have two disks, and the new one is now the primary one, then you may need to set a "jumper" on the secondary disk, before it's visible to the OS (operating system). Have alook at the disk, sometimes there may be an illustration of the jumpers and how to set them.

Basically the jumper is a tiny sort of sleeve/connector that can be set across a number of miniature poles/prongs. Depending where the jumper is set, will goevrn the disk to behave in different ways.

I did this quite recently to pull old data off a previous HD.

If there is no illo on the disk, have alook on the web, for that model (use Google), and see if you can get info about it.


Cheers



Steven

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:43 PM

I pulled out the connection with the coloured wires before reinstalling windows, and pushed it back in after. Didn't touch the ribbon connector. (I have a horrible suspecion maybe I should have disconnected both...)

I'm using Windows 98. And no, the drive doesn't show up in Control Panel/System.

I haven't tried exiting to DOS - I'll have a go at that after I've posted this. (I'm not at all good at making sense of DOS.) But as I said, from the stuff that flashes up on screen in black and white while the computer is starting up it seems that the computer does know there are two drives.

On advice of the hotline bloke, I started up with the second drive disconnected, and at one point during the opening process it reported that the slave drive was gone, and I had to push F1 before I could continue - and then when I connected the drive up it stopped doing that.

Thanks folks. Keep coming back with pointers.

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:09 PM

The data should be fine. Tell us:

Which version of Windows are you using?
If you exit to DOS, does the computer recognize the drive?
Can Windows see that it's phyically there in the System Control Panel?

Subject: RE: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 06:01 PM

How did you do the recommended disconnect, Kevin? {hysically unplugging the HD? If so, have you double-checked the integrity of that data cable now? Also, did you unplug the power cable for that HD as well, and if so is it now back in firmnly?


A

Subject: Tech: My hard disk is out of reach...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 05:03 PM

Well, it's my other hard disk. A few months ago I had a second more sizeable hard disk installed on my computer, to give me room for sound files and pictures files and so forth.

It's been working fine, with Windows and the technical stuff on the origibal disk, and mostly data of one sort or another on the second bigger disk.

Well today I had to reinstall Windows, because something had gone wrong in the reguistry, and after trying to fix it, the man on the hotline said reinstall. And he said disconnect the second disk while It is that I was doing it, so that it wouldn't get wiped in the process. And most of the day that's what I've been doing, with steam rising out of my ears.

However, though I'm back in business, so far as writing stuff and getting on the internet and all that, there's a big BUT

It is that Windows refuses to recognise the existence of my second disc. Click there on My Computer, or look through Systems, and it just doesn't exist. But the computer knows it's there all right, because when it's powering up it flashes up stuff about primary and secondary discs, and masters and slaves.

And I've got lots of stuff on that disc that I'd really hate to lose - photos and songs and my wifde's lesson plans...

I know how to push the appropriate key that would get me into SETUP when I'm starting, and how to go about changing the settings there, and I suspect that the answer lies there - but I haven't a clue what changes to make.

Any kind soul out there who can advise? (The hotline charges 75 pence a minute, and half the time I can't make head nor tail of what they are saying. And those Idiot and Dummies books don't live up to the promise implied in their titles.)