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Subject: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 25 Nov 25 - 03:55 AM Style of singing is of course subjective, however it seems that traditional singers sang the songs as they would speak them, should we then approach traditional songs in the same way, as we would speak them. I believe we should , but I am interested to hear other peoples points of view, this also raise the question of how people accompany traditional songs, bearing in mind they were often unaccompanied, should we make sure that the accompaniment is an accompaniment and does not end up as an accompaniment dictating rhythym and forcing vocals to follow instrument, rather than other way round |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: r.padgett Date: 25 Nov 25 - 04:25 AM Yes I agree Dick ~ I sing as I speak simply because you are story telling and many people respond to word of mouth and language received rather than the intrusive tunes which can detract from the listening to the evolving story Added to, Of which I do not play an instrument for which I ever learnt to play chords Any accompaniment should be to help key and rhythm I understand ~ there are some brilliant players who do help with very good dual presentation of course Ray |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Jack Campin Date: 25 Nov 25 - 11:13 AM Try talking to your friends the same way you'd sing a sea shanty and see what happens to your circle of relationships. Nobody has ever sung the way they speak in any musical culture. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 25 Nov 25 - 11:53 AM We are talking about phrasing., and or..Singing like you speak in traditional songs, like in the Irish style of sean-nós, involves keeping a conversational, natural vocal quality rather than a formal one. To achieve this, focus on conveying the emotion and meaning of the words by maintaining your natural speech rhythm and clarity, using open-throat techniques if appropriate, and prioritizing understandable diction over complex ornamentation. The goal is for the melody to serve the text, not the other way around |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,keberoxu Date: 25 Nov 25 - 04:33 PM Pete Seeger, of happy memory, had two ways of singing, depending on if he was soloing or harmonizing with the Weavers. When singing solo, he sang very much as he spoke, actually a model figure for doing so. When he took the tenor part in the Weavers' vocal quartet, he hollered -- and burnt out his voice. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 25 Nov 25 - 05:15 PM ,Thankyou that is interesting my apologies or not makimg my post clearer, I had in mind solo singing |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Johnny J Date: 25 Nov 25 - 07:18 PM "The way you speak" can vary a lot to depending on where you are and the audience. A conversation with friends is different from a speech, a "working" voice or whatever. Likewise with singing. I can think of quite a few singers who perform songs with a voice not dissimilar to that with which they speak. Of course, not exactly. The phrasing will be slightly different and we don't use high and low notes in conversation. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: r.padgett Date: 26 Nov 25 - 02:42 AM Yes phrasing is all important Ray |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:55 AM Yes all kinds of things are important, but there is no mooral imperative to sing in a certain way. Thank God we have the freedom to sing exactly how we feel like singing. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Backwoodsman Date: 26 Nov 25 - 05:06 AM ”Yes all kinds of things are important, but there is no mooral imperative to sing in a certain way. Thank God we have the freedom to sing exactly how we feel like singing.” Well said Al, nail/head! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Peter Cripps Date: 26 Nov 25 - 05:11 AM I personally do not like singers who sing with 'transatlantic' (ie American) accents |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 25 - 08:08 AM "Style of singing is of course subjective, however it seems that traditional singers sang the songs as they would speak them, should we then approach traditional songs in the same way, as we would speak them" so, I was referring to trad songs, only, and asking peoples views, that is very dfferent from forcing people to sing a particular way, or stating that there is a moral imperative to sing in a particular way |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:30 AM British singers with a US accent are very annoying but its hardly surprising, given the fact that the US has been pretty important in the British realising they had a tradition at all- Folkways, Lomax etc... |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:43 AM Well, perhaps those people speak in a Mid Atlantic accent as well. What can they do? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:51 AM From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 25 - 08:08 AM was me, but not the pother 2 posts |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Keith Price Date: 26 Nov 25 - 10:56 AM It's worth remembering we are not traditional singers, singing by the kitchen fire. We're revival singers usually performing songs to an audience. There's a need to project your voice. Although it's not unusual for folk clubs to use 1 or 2k pa's, then there's less need to do so. Personally I don't think singing into a mic is a natural act, and traditional singers tended not to use them. :-) |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 26 Nov 25 - 03:52 PM i suppose as a revival performer how I choose to sing a song depends on the song, The room, the acoustics and the audience and the general atmosphere. I think it is important to be at the venue right at the beginning of the night to observe,get a feel for the place, become at home and absorb the atmosphere, join in choruses support other singers etc |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:00 PM As someone who lived in DH Lawrence country for more than thirty years, nothing used to piss me off more than the RADA allpurpose northern accent. Similarly the local daft buggers down the folk club attempting a Derbyshire/ Notts border accent. Only one thing upset me more - that was snooty characters having the bad manners to criticise ordinary people having a go at being a folk singer. Furthermore as someone who took a long time to work up the bottle to get up and do a floor spot, I resent those who assume they have the right to dictate their tastes and opinions. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:40 PM is anyone dictating anything? People are giving opinions, we are free to discuss or ignore them |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 26 Nov 25 - 04:41 PM above post was me |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 26 Nov 25 - 07:38 PM That's not like you Al! I was more than pleased to receive advice and help from established singers when I started. Roy Harris and Peter Bellamy took ages advising me, as did Martin Carthy. He showed me how to sing a song by reading and singing the tune from the page. It took me ages to learn, but it stood me in very good stead. No need for a musical instrument. Not one of them was snooty and not one of them dictated. In respect of singing, as we would speak, Grainger addressed this in the 1908 FSJ, and referred to musical adaptations made by Traditional singers to suit dialect. ( Can't find it? Don't own the journal? Ask, and you shall receive.) |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: r.padgett Date: 27 Nov 25 - 03:18 AM I had forgotten about sight music reading Ray |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Nov 25 - 05:18 AM You don't know Al, and he's closer to my take on music than the attitude that there's a "right" way to sing folk songs "like the original singers did". In my opinion there are better ways and worse ways- and I'm with Al on the idea that it's better to adapt the vocabulary, rhyming scheme, scansion etc. of a song than try to do an "original" (Scotch/ Oirish/ Zummerzet/ whatever) accent that you haven't got a close-to-native grasp of. I'm the singer, I sing my song, not Walter Pardon's or anybody else's. And you're free to like it, and if you don't to say why (or not). Example: I like to sing Recruited Collier in a partially tamed Salford accent to the tune of Andy's Gone With Cattle (Australian AFAIK), which fits beautifully and sounds like a Geordie tune (see below). I see Roud has no original recorded "traditional" singer for this, but the vocabulary of versions I've heard (professional recordings and folk- club singers) suggests North-East England somewhere. The feedback I get is about 50/50 between good and horrified. Counter example: I'd love to be able to sing The Portuguese (50s or 60s composition), but my Cockney isn't even Mockney. So I don't unless I'm very, very drunk at the time. This all comes down into the age old conundrum about why we do "folk" as a separate thing. And the only answer seems to be, "Because we like to." |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Big Al Whittle Date: 27 Nov 25 - 08:59 AM advice and help by all means. In our creative writing group, we have a rule "no one is allowed to rubbish another writers work". Since we introduced this rule - the atmosphere of our little group has improved no end. I think the folk clubs would do well adopt this rule, and learn to respect the effort that goes into achieving a performance |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 25 - 09:13 AM Paul B 'The Recruited Collier' was collected in North Cumbria, so you're not that far off, but I've never heard it in a cumbrian accent |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 25 - 09:31 AM The origins of 'The Recruited Collier' are dubious, it would appear to owe a lot to A l Lloyd, very doubtful it was collected by him in CumbriA |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:29 AM GUEST, 09:13 AM: [Citation needed], and tell Rouse! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Rain Dog Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:29 AM "It's worth remembering we are not traditional singers, singing by the kitchen fire." I posted a few years ago about people singing at getogethers rather than going to a venue to hear people singing. I was born and brought up in the UK.My parents were Irish. At family and social gatherings, both here and in Ireland, people sang largely unaccompanied, just like they did in times past. I am not sure how common tbat is nowadays. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:31 AM Roud I mean... Rouse used to be my boss. Wo ist Herr Rouse? Er ist heraus. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:34 AM Regenshund (while I'm in that mood): Salford, late 50s/ early 60s, family get- togethers just like that. A lot of Irish background, but definitely Lancs. Start memory: my Dad singing The Hole In The Elephant's Bottom. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: r.padgett Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:38 AM It was reputedly collected in Cumbria ~ Bert Lloyd had Anne Briggs record it and Fred Jordan also sang it as well as Kate Rusby ~ the final verse was missed by Anne Briggs ~ final verse appears in "Reprints from Sing Out ~ 'tis a woman's song Ray |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:47 AM A woman's song? WTF is that? You'll be telling mbe only under 16s can sing miner's songs next. This one starts by the singer talking to a woman, the rest is quoting her reply. If Bert Lloyd did counterfeit it, well, it just proves he's a brilliant artist. Who wrote all the other folk songs (see Roud's book at gloomy length). |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 25 - 10:59 AM "If Bert Lloyd did counterfeit it, well, it just proves he's a brilliant artist." Yes indeed, but not a trad song ,and oddly it has the same melody as Sweet Thames. Andys gone is a composed poem by Lawson, tune trad, put together by John Meredith |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Nov 25 - 11:32 AM I'm not trying to argue about Lloyd. I'm talking about whether singers should try to sing a song in the way somebody sang it 20, 50, 100, 120 years ago (we don't really know much before that) because it's somehow "authenmtic". And I'm trying to say that, if you like it that way, please do. But don't try to make out that it's somehow better than someone who sings the same song a different way. I'm not sure I agree with Roud, but he's done a lot of research into folk song origins, and, well, the conclusion I took from him is that just about anything went as far as the "source" singers were concerned; and they sang them the way they liked, and the way their audiences expected. Those audiences being pub mates and collectors amongst others, and I suspect they may have sung a bit differently in those two situations. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 27 Nov 25 - 01:30 PM I like to sing songs the way i might speak them, what other people do is up to them, nobody on this thread is forcing anybody to do any thing they do not want to . Or saying anything is better as regards Lloyd yes it shows he was a fine writer , but it also casts doubts on his scholarship I quote my original post Style of singing is of course subjective, however it seems that traditional singers sang the songs as they would speak them, should we then approach traditional songs in the same way, as we would speak them. I believe we should , but I am interested to hear other peoples points of view |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Keith Price Date: 27 Nov 25 - 05:08 PM Paul Burke "just about anything went as far as the "source" singers were concerned;" I believe Steve Roud was referring to what songs were sung and not how they were sung. As he said in the Guardian interview “If Harry Cox had sung Yellow Submarine then it would have to go in,” (the index) Roud doesn't define folk songs, if it's been collected and is in an archive, it's recorded in the index. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Steve Shaw. Date: 27 Nov 25 - 09:21 PM I never sing. I'm my band's jovial harmonica man. But tonight, due to staff shortage, I'll be singing Galway Girl. There's no way I can maintain a Steve Earle accent, nor should I nor will I try to. I have a lusty voice with a distinctly northern accent, I'm 74 and, as such, I can't be constrained by any strictures levelled at one by the folkie accent police (and I especially won't be singing down my nose). I reckon that all those old singing boys and gals in ages gone past just went down the pub to have fun and would have told, had they existed, the po-faced folkie police where to get off. So there. And I might cup my ear once or twice because it works, but no finger of mine will ever penetrate my external auditory canal... |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 28 Nov 25 - 12:23 AM I didn't understand too much of this, I too am 74. One thing caught my eye: "perhaps those people speak in a Mid Atlantic accent as well." The rumor we had in our family (I haven't been able to verify it) was that my umpteenth great grandfather was born on the ship coming to America. So it seems possible he spoke with a Mid Atlantic accent... |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 25 - 01:53 AM If i wished to sing Opera, I would have no problem with trying to use clear diction and doing breathing exercises so that i could hold a note without going flat. Good singing technique can be ;learned and benefits performance in whatever music genre.IMO As far as I am concerned having a good singing technique, helps my confidence in being able to give a satisfactory performance. as regards traditional singers, there is no set rule, some just went down to the pub for fun, however singers who entered singing competitions example[ joseph taylor], had a different approach. friends of mine who knew Harry Cox have told me that his attitude towards singing was differnt from Sam Larner, to be didactic or dogmatic about traditional singers attitudes to their songs is a mistake. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 28 Nov 25 - 02:03 AM Walter Pardon sang the songs purely for his own enjoyment, Sam Larner used to enjoy going to the pub to hold forth, diffrent strokes for different blokes "I reckon that all those old singing boys and gals in ages gone past just went down the pub to have fun and would have told, had they existed, the po-faced folkie police where to get off. " quote, steve shaw some yes, pthers, no but people like sarah makem and walter pardon did their singing at home Sarah Makem sang songs whilst doing cooking and housework, there is also evidence that others sang while doing jobs like horse ploughing and milking. people singing while working is well documented |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 28 Nov 25 - 03:03 AM steve shaw , you sing in a shanty group, people used shanties as work songs, they did not generally go down the pub to sing them, yes shanties are tradItional songs |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Tattie Bogle Date: 28 Nov 25 - 05:27 AM The late Gordeanna McCulloch (fantastic singer) advocated the “sing it as you would say it” approach: indeed, in her workshops, she would get us to read through the lyrics of a song first, before singing them, so that we could get the full sense and phrasing of them, find the important words that needed more emphasis, etc. This advice could apply whether the song was accompanied or not. As a friend recently said, after we had listened to a singer chopping up the words to fit his funky guitar rhythm, “It’s better to play your instrument to accompany the song, rather than try to fit the song to accompany your fancy instrumental rhythm”. Then there are those that are so metronomically bound that you can almost hear the click track - again making nonsense of the words. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 28 Nov 25 - 05:33 AM Well FYI, Dick, we are far from being just a shanty band. Our playlist tonight contains several instrumentals with me and our fiddle player, some Tom Paxton songs, Streets Of London, Galway Girl and a few shanties for sure, among other stuff. At my tender age I won't want paying but a free pint and a plateful of grub and good company will do me fine, and I won't be reading any rule books. We're not exactly the LSO, you know! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 28 Nov 25 - 05:50 AM I've always sung Irish & American songs in my own Geordie accent (the way I speak) and mostly got away with it I think? I can't sing 'Another Saturday Night' in Sam Cooke's accent, but it's a great song, & adapt the words to suit setting an example one day the environment- is that OK- I don't care really I have a lovely memory of Forster Charlton, legendary Geordie fiddler and Northumbrian piper demonstrating this view in a rare burst of the 1943 song 'You'll Never Know' as follows.... 'Ye'll nivvor knaa jist how much aa luv ye Ye'll nivvor knaa jist how much aa care And if aa tried aa still cuddernt hide me luv for ye Shuarly ye knaa cos hevvent aa telt ye so A million an' mair times ..... (you can do the rest!) sing as you speak - yes... |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Nov 25 - 07:38 AM An old friend, now sadly passed away, used to sing Tom Jone's 'Delilah' in his broad norther accent Ah saw a leet on the neet that ah passed by 'er windder... |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Nov 25 - 08:17 AM A folk club shanty is a forebitter. It may be based on traditional work song, then again, maybe not. That's a stage tradition all its own. Real mariners speak as they sing... except for pitch, resonance, rhythm, tempo, tone, volume and some other stuff. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Vic Smith Date: 28 Nov 25 - 09:54 AM Jim Bainbridge's post?? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Vic Smith Date: 28 Nov 25 - 10:43 AM Jim That was my failed attemot to insert a "Thumbs UP!" symbol on Mudcat. I'm afraid that I have forgotten how to do it. Are ye aye cribbin' yer bit? Vic |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 28 Nov 25 - 11:01 AM MaJoC's €0.02: I remember reading somewhere that songs sung in English tend to have one note per syllable, and one syllable per word, and that that's how you tell when a song was composed in English.* What I do myself in practice depends on the song and the circumstances: in The Handweaver and the Factory Maid, the rhythm comes from the words, while in * Origin unknown. Enlightenment humbly requested. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Nov 25 - 11:46 AM Do I remember one of the Kipper family referring to "Foreskin Shanties" or was that someone else? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Nov 25 - 06:31 PM A shanty verse was one voice (typical.) Where multiple capstans were involved, the chorus voices could run to triple digits. The words follow the rhythm. The rhythm follows the work. Speak like actual jerk (or shove) physics are involved. For accompaniment, may I suggest kettlebells? Work is, after all, measured in ergs. Coincidence? I think not! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Nov 25 - 08:12 PM What singers think they're doing, and what they say they're doing, often has very little resemblance to what goes down on a recording machine. There is an urban legend in the Scottish folk scene that Gaelic singers (and Travellers in particular) do the same melodic ornaments as Highland pipers. Listen to what they're actually doing, and no they aren't, not by a very long way. You need to be very skeptical of claims like "I just sing the way I speak". |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Doug Chadwick Date: 29 Nov 25 - 09:13 AM I remember reading somewhere that songs sung in English tend to have one note per syllable, and one syllable per word, and that that's how you tell when a song was composed in English. Alas(1w,2s) my love(1s,2n) you do me wrong(1s,2n) To cast me off(1s,2n) discourteously(1w,5s,4n) So what language was Greensleeves composed in? The way I sing it, the two syllable 'Greensleeves' has, at different points, 2, 3 and 4 notes. There are many, many more English songs that don't conform to the 'one note per syllable, and one syllable per word' tendancy. DC |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 29 Nov 25 - 02:33 PM Hopefully this is a not too disagreeable point of order, and probably irrelevant to the discussion. I believe 'The Weaver and the Factory maid' was a broadsheet put to a traditional tune (The Irish boy collected by Sharp in Somerset) by Bert Lloyd to further his interest in industrial folk song. In the light of that my belief is that it can not be held up as any example of Traditional singing style. Yes it has a Roud number and yes there is the name of a singer William Oliver of Widnes, and no I do not believe he existed. I admit I have not read Roy Palmer's comments in the 1977 FSJ, so my mind is still open. It's still a belting song though. If anybody has info please start a separate thread, or it is not fair on Dick's OP. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 29 Nov 25 - 06:02 PM Song & more links here: Origins: The Weaver and the Factory Maid And Bert's bits get the usual going over here: Bertsongs? (songs of A. L. 'Bert' Lloyd) |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 30 Nov 25 - 03:03 AM Thanks. On with the original discussion. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Norfolk and good Date: 30 Nov 25 - 06:11 AM This thread exposes Lloyds scholarship |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 30 Nov 25 - 06:20 PM Forebitter style rowing songs (and Hollywood) are capable of changing tempo, ergo hull speed, in a single beat, a la Ben Hur. A traditional work song would require several hull lengths and many dozen strokes worth of accelerando for a vessel of any size. And it would be accomplished by a change first in song tone. One strokes harder (or softer) in order to row faster (or slower) over time. The lead voice would be a command voice (oratory, proceleusmatic &c&c) not a conversational tone for most singers. Too, the forebitter chorus is neither captive nor subordinate. Mind, if one is just singing for a good time… do it that way. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 01 Dec 25 - 04:27 AM https://stephraemoran.com/how-work-songs- work songs in uk and irelandimproved-daily-life-in-ireland-and-scotland/ link to article on work songsin ireland and uk other than shanties |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 02 Dec 25 - 03:40 AM Other places where song and music took place i Ireland included Rambling houses and meetings where gossip storytelling songs and tunes took place in peoples houses song tunes AKA Scroacht [sic] songs tune and stories took place in Bothys In Scotland, The idea that traditional singers only sang in pubs is incorrect |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 02 Dec 25 - 12:40 PM The idea that traditional singers only sang in pubs is incorrect Just sometimes, and when they do... and its more about the "what" and "how" than the "who" or "where." Moving it to the kitchen or front stoop won't magically convert that forebitter to a shanty. That takes physics aka work. The stage has come with its own maritime traditions since the days of Martial (artist) and Polybius (historian): "The present Manager of the Chatham Garden Theatre, was formerly a Lieutenant in the British Navy. He was afterwards on the boards of the Norwich Company in England. He was principally applauded for singing a common sailor's chant in character – having a sort of “Sally Brown, oh, ho,” chorus; and requiring the action of pulling a rope, spitting upon the hand, and the accompaniment of a horrid yell….” [Horace in New York, Campbell, 1826] Forebitters are not shanties. They are forebitters and always have been. There is no maritime "work" involved. Calling them traditional work song denies the singer and the stage of their own traditions does it not? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 02 Dec 25 - 01:05 PM The most rigid definition of “shanty,” has three critical attributes: English, mid-19th century and merchant marine. The best forebitters can do is 1:3. One can reenact or demonstrate with the same limitations as anything else 19th century but that's what one will be doing… acting or demonstrating. Drifting back on topic, ones acting voice is (usually) not ones speaking voice. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 02 Dec 25 - 04:31 PM Shanties are not excluisive to England- or is this just a little more chauvinistism from the master race? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Backwoodsman Date: 02 Dec 25 - 04:53 PM ‘Chauvinistism’? Perhaps you mean chauvinism? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 02 Dec 25 - 05:49 PM Shanties are not excluisive to England English is not exclusive to England and the classic shanty definition, as stated, allows for everything from fiddle instrumentals to forebitters. But... throw in all unspoken publisher/consumer preferences and +90% of maritime work song is off the program altogether. None of that has anything to with what 'voice' any of it should be delivered in. More better here: Help: What is a 'forebitter' or What is a Shanty |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Dec 25 - 07:18 AM I prefer fivebitters. Or more. But I thought any notion of us folkies being primarily passive preservers of some idealised ancient tradition from a golden age would have been quietly dropped after Georgina Boyes' demolition job. We ain't. We sing songs. In my case, not as I speak, because I don't speak in rhyme or with a tune.And I certainly don't care about somebody's definition of song type X. Did I ever see a wild goose a- sailing non the ocean? No. And as for playing tunes... I really couldn't care less that somebody thinks they are dance tunes, and should be played so they can dance to them. Get someone else to do that, or learn to dance better. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 03 Dec 25 - 12:03 PM I'm a bit puzzled as to how you can be passive and a preserver (actively, that is). Georgina Boyes did not demolish anything; in fact, quite the opposite. And while we're on the subject, traditional British folk song is an ancient tradition. If you are going to sing a folk song, it really helps to know about what you are singing. Why you are singing is another matter altogether. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Jinks Date: 03 Dec 25 - 12:30 PM For the record, the word 'Scroacht' does not exist in Irish. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 25 - 12:48 PM spelling error- does 'scriacht' work for you |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Jinks Date: 03 Dec 25 - 01:47 PM spelling error- does 'scriacht' work for you Nope. There's no word 'scriacht' in Irish> https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/_s |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 03 Dec 25 - 01:52 PM ok- over to my old pal in Ireland- there was a radio programme I think? in West cork which, with whatever spelling ,would keep this man happy- can you remember it? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 03 Dec 25 - 02:18 PM If the mid-19th century pub was near a waterfront, a large percentage of the singers and audience were also working merchant mariners: “I shall never forget hearing an old salt, who had broken his voice by hard drinking on shore, and bellowing from the mast-head in a hundred north-westers, with all manner of ungovernable trills and quavers – in the high notes, breaking into a rough falsetto – and in the low ones, growling along like the dying away of the boatswain's “all hands ahoy!”” [Two Years Before the Mast, Dana] And, if that electric bass player is sporting a tri-corner hat, “shanties” is just fine. Party on dudes. Maritime museum docents &c&c, a tad more historically accurate wardrobe/accompaniment/voice/glossary is called for. Trad singers somewhere in the middle of the ol' Bell Curve. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Paul Burke Date: 03 Dec 25 - 02:25 PM "traditional British folk song is an ancient tradition" [Citation needed] Depends of course on what you mean by "folk song" (see Boyes and Roud) and "ancient". And "British" of course. And "an" - aren't there quite a number of traditions in Britain? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 03 Dec 25 - 02:50 PM Typical for two (same and only two) places: “The Mass will be followed by the theatre group’s usual scriacht, which will in turn be followed by teas and coffees, sandwiches, and a raffle.” [Pyke Theatre Group to hold its annual mass] Alt spelling returns one hit for a Fastnet Maritime and Folk Festival programme… w/Dick Miles et al. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 03 Dec 25 - 03:05 PM Masterful deflection Paul! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 25 - 07:25 PM scroacht |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 03:46 AM Traditional songs[ other than shanties] were sung in the home, at work [ploughing, milking etc], in Bothys and at the rambling house, and other house "get togethers" the idea that tradtional songs were only sung in pubs is incorrect. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 03:59 AM "Scoraíocht" is a type of Irish performance competition that combines Irish traditional music, song, dance, and storytelling into a themed show, notes Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann. It can be performed with a detailed script or with a more improvisational structure where a producer uses a variety of musical and performance elements to develop a theme with a minimum of dialogue, says Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 07:34 AM oh I see- if CCE says that, it must be true....?? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Keith Price Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:07 AM Any chance of 'Guests' identifying themselves in some manner. It's getting confusing. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,the sandman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:25 AM Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 07:34 AM oh I see- if CCE says that, it must be true....?? Yes, although it is older than the organisation CCE, which came into existence in the early 1950,S anonymous trolls hide under philosophical bridges, negative cowards |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:30 AM In some parts of ireland regional gealic spelling is still used "Scoraíocht""Scroacht" Scoríocht" |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 04 Dec 25 - 08:34 AM Of course nobody LITERALLY sings in exactly the same way they speak as to state the obvious singing and speaking are different things. But I do like singers whose singing voice is in much the same vocal range as their speaking voice, and whose delivery tends to avoid drama or over-embellishment.Singers such as Bill Callahan, Leonard Cohen, Johnny Cash, Martin Carthy, Shirley Collins. I like singers who sing vocal lines in a meter reasonably close to how it would be spoken - within the overall caveat that they are of course singing... I hate singers who destroy the sense or meter of a line by over ornamenting. There are of course singers who are part of a tradition of singing in which certain embellishments or ornamentation is a part of that tradition. Sean nos singing for example. But even then, there is still ways to do ornamentation judiciously, as with great singers such as Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunney, Sarah Makem. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Keith Price Date: 04 Dec 25 - 09:52 AM It's not so much the voice for me, as long as it's not too operatic. It's the performance that can do me in, face pulling, Shirley Bassey arms flinging about. The drama if any is and should be in the song. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 10:16 AM ”It's the performance that can do me in, face pulling, Shirley Bassey arms flinging about.” What if the singer pulls faces and flings his/her arms about when speaking? I’ll get me coat… ;-) |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,The Sandman Date: 04 Dec 25 - 11:12 AM I am interested to hear about singing in Wales. It would appear many English song collectors only collected in English speaking parts of Wales such as the Gower, Where there was evidence of mouth music from singers like Phil Tanner. I am curious to know where tradtional singers sang their songs, particularly on dry areas on sundays. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Nick Dow Date: 04 Dec 25 - 12:31 PM Mick Tems would know a lot about that Dick. He approached me with his collection and asked about how he should organise it, so I have an idea what's there. He's finding life a bit easier now after his stroke, and I've seen him a couple of times. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 06 Dec 25 - 11:32 AM off subject maybe but talking of singers 'flinging their arms about', TV news presenters have adopted this wholesale, as have modern footballers- can't stand any of it |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 25 - 12:36 PM off subject but talkiNg of singers who have things flung about reminds me of Tom Jones |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 06 Dec 25 - 01:03 PM Ed Pickford's concise version of the 'Green Green Grass of Home' ' The old towmn looked the same so I got back on the train' |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 25 - 02:54 PM and thats another reason i left old skibbereen |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Tattie Bogle Date: 08 Dec 25 - 05:50 AM Have you seen Eddi Reader sings Burns?? Or perhaps it should be Eddi Reader flings Burns ?? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 25 - 07:28 AM no ,i happened to hear two singers from nottingham jill and bernard blackwell] singing ae fond kiss, very good |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Long Firm Freddie Date: 08 Dec 25 - 07:51 AM Nicola Kearey of Stick In The Wheel is from East London and sings as she speaks: Stick in the Wheel: Bows of London LFF |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 25 - 11:41 AM despite her accent, the version doesnt turn me on, but if we all liked the same thing it would be boring |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 08 Dec 25 - 12:28 PM i prefer this and he sings as he spoke, far superior diction wise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14-V6fB4RJk |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: cujimmy Date: 09 Dec 25 - 07:37 AM There has been a lot of discussian regarding Dick Gaughan recently on FB, he sings in his own Scottish accent and he puts his songs over very very well, its inspiring to listen to him singing. So even though I know that some people find difficulty making out his words at first, who would want him to sing in any other way. There are many others from all over who sing so well in their own accent from each country or even regions of England, Scotland, Ireland or elsewhere. It all adds up to make folk music much more interesting and enjoyable. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 09 Dec 25 - 11:49 AM A little bit of judgment & reality neccessary when singing songs from another region/ nation. I'd be quite happy doing a bit of Gus Elen, and I've done 'Buttercup Joe' in a Geordie accent for many years. However I would certainly not attempt the 'Freedom Come-All-Ye' in any circumstances.... |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: cujimmy Date: 09 Dec 25 - 07:06 PM But it is a great song to know Jim, and one a lot of people fro the NE would like to know and sing, so dont be shy about singing it in your own tongue, we would still appreciate it im sure. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Prick of Peckham Date: 10 Dec 25 - 04:57 PM O to be a lunoner and drop dipthongs Stop it right now, Dick. ---mudelf |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Doug Chadwick Date: 11 Dec 25 - 05:30 AM What song starts: "M A B it's a big horse ........" ? > > > > > > > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > > > > > > > > > > M A B it's a big horse I'm a Londoner That I love London so ..................................... ..................... DC |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 11 Dec 25 - 05:30 PM Er, scratching my head, I'll try again: Well, Doug, what song starts with Whale Kipper Whelk? |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Doug Chadwick Date: 11 Dec 25 - 07:15 PM Hi Steve, "Whale Kipper Whelk-ome in the hillsides" Just out of interest, why are you scratching your head? DC |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: Tattie Bogle Date: 12 Dec 25 - 04:44 AM Jim mentions “Freedom Come All Ye” (Hamish Henderson), which is written in very broad Scots. Having lived in Scotland for nearly 40 years, and it being the song that is sung at most TMSA (Traditional Music & Song Association of Scotland) gatherings, I was determined to learn it: took me about 5 years only! What helped was having a Scots-speaking singer go through it, word by word, explaining the meaning of each word. So I guess my point is, understanding what you’re singing about, whether you get the accent right or not, will make it more valid. |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 12 Dec 25 - 06:18 AM I'd love to answer your question, Doug, but, for reasons beyond my control, I can't! |
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Subject: RE: singing as we would speak From: The Sandman Date: 12 Dec 25 - 11:08 AM Tattie, good post |
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