No invisible means of support

Subject: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:08 PM

Without lambasting or denigrating religious beliefs of anyone, can we try to state why we don't think that gods of any kind have ever existed!?

As I've said, God, the tall tales of Christ, ghosts, pagan incantations etc. have, truly, represented forms of wishful thinking to me. They are ways of controlling the masses. After gaining the maturity of some extended quantity of years, and looking at this world we are in as it has always been, I continue to, respectfully, I hope, state the facts of the matter that seem so obvious.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:24 PM

Believe it or not, Art, I would agree with you if it weren't for some intangibles.

Love
Beauty
Appreciation
Regret
Sorrow
Hope

These are not things measured on a physical compass.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:28 PM

"physical compass"

All a compass tells you is which direction your planets magnetic field runs in... it's got nothing to do with emotions...

Ever heard the phrase "The right tool for the job"?

"we don't think that gods of any kind have ever existed!?"
Ever? So they may have ONCE existed but have packed up tents and moved on down the road like divine tinkers? Interesting idea... it sure might explain why sometimes it seems like things are just getting worse and worse and worse...

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:30 PM

Agree= but not 'all people that on earth do well'

see here- new archbishop.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/4481796.stm

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:32 PM

Art, I have the greatest respect for you and your opinion. Bill D would be another that feels as you do that I have similar feelings for. But there is no way to explain it to someone. All of the things that Ebbie points out had as their genesis something greater, IMO. Faith comes from believing in something that is greater than ones self. I don't buy into the literal stories either, but I completely accept on faith the lessons taught by them and that they come from something greater than myself.

Mick

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:35 PM

Most people feel the need of something or someone to believe in. I have no religious beliefs, and am sure that when I die that is that.
Some people could not face that thought, and take refuge in reassurances that it will not be so.
In a way I envy people with an unshakable belief that they go on to a better place when they die, it must be very comforting.
Giok

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:46 PM

Clinton, I almost said physical 'plane' but inserted the other as a referent to being 'encompassed' about.

Giok, I don't actually agree with that statement either, that it's more comforting to believe there is a better place than it would be to accept extinguishment. I tend to feel that *no one* is absolutely unshakable in their beliefs. I could cite a number of scenarios that I believe would take people aback.( For that matter, people who are absolutely certain in any opinion are scary to me.)

On the other hand, a belief that the physical and material is all there is and that with your last breath you cease to be, why should that thought not be comforting?

Art, I love exploring the deepest corners of my mind's beliefs which is where I find subjects like this.

Mick, love you.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM

To my knowledge the only members of animal world to carrying on about God are modern homonids.

Its men who have written about God. Its men who since the 4th century have clamed to know and direct God's teachings and subsequently have written out women from the equality of men in religion and marketplace.

But now and then there is a man who either claims to be God or tells everyone he is directed by God.

There really is now a man who says he is God's man. The man to achieve God's plan on Earth. He is not the first to claim to be God's man for the job but he is the current President of the United States.

God's plan must be to have the US first cause a civil war in Iraq and then fight it for them:

To create an ongoing blood bath that would only dishonor those who have died in this blood bath UNLESS we continue the blood bath. To win the hearts and minds of the people by killing them and/or destroying their homes.

To build a new democracy where there was none. A democracy of the people by the people and for the people who recieve unbid contracts.



You know this makes me suspicious that this is not God's plan at all but just hollow lies told by the idiot son of a former CIA President who is now propped up by the advisors Rumsfeld and Cheney from the former Reagan/Bush administration .

Ted, idiocy falls by its own weight but it takes time.
I believe that the British Empire occupied Egypt for about 50 years before they realized their stupidity.

How long will it take for Americans to stop supplying toy soldiers for Bush?
Not long*.
How long until we stop pouring all our borrowed money into Iraq?
Not long*.
How long before there will be peace in the middle East?
Not long*



* ...in geologic terms.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:06 PM

"To my knowledge the only members of animal world to carrying on about God are modern homonids." Donuel

But that is the point, Don. As far as our knowledge goes, we believe that we are the only beings who think about the unseen. We are secure in our arrogance.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:13 PM

It is useful in all discussions on this subject to distinguish between religions and faith. I have real issues with the way religion is used to justify horrid actions. But I see the beauty of a creator in an unlimited number of natural occurences. I think all of nature shows us that it is completely natural to believe in afterlife, or reincarnation. Every single thing about creation leads us to that conclusion. Seasons, annual rebirth, they all point me to birth, life, death, rebirth. I find these lessons to provide me with insights on eternity.

Mick

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:20 PM

"No invisible means of support".

And here I thought this thread was about shopping for bras.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:30 PM

Anyone who thinks animals do not recognise deities has never read The Perishers (scroll down for one day's cartoon strip!)

Nigel

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:38 PM

Humanity has always created anthropomorphic gods and goddesses. We anthropormorphize animals, plants, rocks. I'm not sure that we can envision something that is not in our image, for we are all we actually know (and that imperfectly).

We can try to extend beyond the self, even though we usually fail -- perhaps it's the trying is what actually keeps us human.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:00 PM

I am always fascinated by people who escape some horrible disaster and then claim that "God was watching over me." If He was watching, why did the disaster happen in the first place? And why was he not also watching over the people who were killed or injured?

I am an atheist who is also fascinated by organized atheists who have set up a group of rules that exclude me. ESP, for example, does not exist in their creed. Experience it and you are out. I have experienced it and attribute it too to a set of chance circumstances that cause it to happen, not angels or demons or god. JA set creed of non-belief is just another form of controlling the masses, I think.

It is impossible to prove a negative. I won't try. So far, no one has been able to prove the existence of an all powerful deity to me. I will listen - skeptically.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:09 PM

The way I generally see it, all of those good qualities Ebbie mentions are a result of conscious decisions by pretty good people to adopt those ways of being. Their minds come to embrace those concepts after much living and thinking. For me it's a result of which salad bar items we take because the taste is either good or in the case of hot peppers, we choose to endure the pain because we like it.

Art

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:50 PM

Some of the things I believe are the product of a developing understanding - (and I'm not done yet!). For instance, I agree with Sinsull that a god is not out there watching me walk along a sidewalk and protecting me from a ladder about to fall - but lets it fall on the next person. I agree with Sins that that's a strange, self-absorbed view of one's doing and being.

However (there is ALWAYS a however) I have come to believe somethings that I was never taught, and which may sound sacreligious to some.

I have my own tortured terminology for it, so bear with me...

I seem to have found that if one puts oneself into a certain flow, a certain mindset, perhaps, certain events will happen or not happen in a coherence that can be startling. I have come to the place where I count on it. That, basically, means that I *know* I will be where I need to be at any given time, I *know* that my life will unfold in the direction I *need*, I *know* that I will meet the people along the way who will help me learn, will help support me in the ways I need to see...

I suspect that it has nothing whatever to do with religion or a god's intervention. I suspect that the person can be an atheist or a saint and anything in between. (Maybe even a crook in his or her activities- although I would hope not!)

Another way of looking at it may be visualizing a strawberry bed. Each blossom and fruit appears separate and self sufficient but underneath there is a whole world we don't see, a network that connects them all, feeds them all and gives them all the information they need to thrive and produce.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:55 PM

what if he is watching you, this very minute......

he must have nearly as boring an existence as me, and he's got to keep surveillance up until the end of eternity. serves him right.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:18 PM

Death is what you make it.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:37 PM

Art, Art, Art...

Fir me it was kinda like learnin' to ride a bycycle... When the light came on it was on...

I am truelu saddened that you, or anyone, would go thru life without a relationship with God, let alone Jesus Christ...

All I can say is that while there are no words that will make you a "believer" that those of us who have a relationship with God know deep within their souls that He is in us, with us and lovin' us...

Can I prove that to you? No, but hey, if ya' don't mind I'll ask the Big Guy to make a special effort to break thru to ya'...

Peace thru Faith

Bobert

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:16 PM

Art, it was nice of you to try to broaden it past Christianity. It won't work, but it was nice.

I find these sorts of threads interesting, nowadays. First, I usually wonder, what makes a body go start one up? If people are so sure their isn't any god, how come they need to talk about religion so MUCH?

Also, I find these threads interesting in that they are the same sort of stuff Hardi and I hear when people come tell us all about their doubts, in church. See, y'all give us fabulous market research to draw upon. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:16 PM

I agree with Art. Sorry, Bobert; I guess you'll have to say my name three times, too!

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:19 PM

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and
self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.

They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of
owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of
years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

Walt Whitman

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:35 PM

well~! I finally open this thread and find myself being used as an example! *tsk*..Mick!

You know, having been ^{up to here} in theories of religion and philosophy for many years, I guess I have a bit of an odd outlook compared to many of you. The very phrase " believing in something that is greater than ones self" causes me to start down thru a maze of thoughts.

It's not exactly that I disagree that there is something "greater than myself", but I really don't know what that means! (Not "don't know what it IS", but really..."don't know what that means!") If you read my 734 or so posts on matters like this, you'll note that I NEVER claim to 'know' that there is no 'supreme being'...it is just something that is not, by definition provable in the strict use of 'prove'.
All I can say is that, lacking proof, I choose not to buy into the enormously complex set of contradictory belief structures that mankind has woven. Life is bewildering, amazing, interesting, scary, wonderful...and infinite in its complexity. It doesn't, (to me) need a cause, a designer, a creator...etc...If one shows up, in a way that leaves **NO** doubt, I should like to ask him/her/it some pointed questions...but if not, I will ask other questions of myself and my friends about how to live well whether we ever have a definitive answer.

   I don't expect some of you to ever think like I do, as we all have different emotional needs and different ways of expressing them...some in metaphor, some in absolutes...and some just in more questions.

I do have personal opinions about how it all 'works', but since humans have the ability to reflect on their own existence (now THERE'S the amazing part!), they have the ability to create a universe of Gods in their own image...they just don't agree on the details.

Nietzsche, in "Zarathustra", said, "...and one old greybeard of a god stood up and said, I am the Lord, your God! Thou shalt have no other gods before me ...and all the other gods died laughing.."

It makes a certain kind of point....

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:43 PM

Again, let's not confuse "church" and "religion." And let's not assume that any one religion has The Word (bear with me, Bobert!).

For instance: Let your conduct be marked by right action, including study and teaching of the scripture; by truthfulness, in word, deed, and thought; by self-denial and the practice of austerity; by poise and self-control; the performand of the everyday duties of life with a cheerful heart and an unattached mind. How does this, which is from the Upanishads, differ so much from Proverbs 16?

Does Leave all things behind and come to me for thy salvation. I will make thee free from the bondage of sins. Fear no more. differ greatly from Luke 9:57-62? The quote I give is from the Bhagavad Gita, 18:66.

Are the enjoinments in the Qu'ran, Sutra 7:28-36 so different from the teaching of Christianity? Childrem of Adam, dress well when you attend your mosques. Eat and drink, but avoid excess. He does not love the intemperate.

Some things seem common to all of humanity....

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:44 PM

I think I'm in love with your brain Bill D.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:54 PM

So MUCH, Susan???? One thread from a man who has lived a long, full life, touched millions with his wit and music, and deals daily with a relentless illness. Given your background I would hope that it does not come as a surprise to you that as people age they try to understand the purpose of the life they have led.

I pity your parishioners if, when they ask for help, they get this same, dismissive "know it all" but offer nothing response. Have you some irrefutable proof of the existence of your deity? We are all ears. Blind faith does not work for many of us.

Lastly, Art made it clear that he was not attacking any religion. He is asking atheists for their reasons for not accepting the existence of a deity. It is a question that has fascinated the greatest minds for time immemorial and to date has not been solved conclusively. Books are published every year on the subject. TV, radio, the press cover it daily. I wonder why you are so afraid of people thinking along lines different from your own beliefs. Why are you so threatened especially if your faith is so rock solid?

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Beer
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:56 PM

Bill D,
Far out

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM

BillD,
Totally down to earth in my estimation. Bless you.
SINS

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 11:44 PM

Wow, SINS, you read me wrong... real wrong!

~S~

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 12:34 AM

Bill, the "Zarathustra" quote is one of my all time favorites. And your explanation is why you are one of my all time favorites.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 01:04 AM

"humans have the ability to reflect on their own existence (now THERE'S the amazing part!), they have the ability to create a universe of Gods in their own image...they just don't agree on the details."

And Pratchett is one of the cleverest and funniest. Try 'The last Hero', but it is spread all thru the books.

"If people are so sure there isn't any god, how come they need to talk about religion so MUCH?"

Many of us don't.

Robin

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 01:11 AM

Wysiwyg--other religious people,

Susan, hello. I truly do respect and am happy for you and for all who have found peace just about any way they can do that.

My intention in starting this thread was to make a place where us atheists can tell of the philosophical journeys and paths we trod to get to our ways of viewing this life WITHOUT religious people joining in the discussion at all. So please, kindly exit stage right. Just for now though. We like having you around otherwise. ;-) **SMILE** (REALLY)

We know full well you are out there---and we love you !! So there. My wife of going on 40 years nearly is a very serious Jehovah's Witness. We do love each other. The only times we had trouble simply going by the old "live and let live" idea is when she and I conflicted in a way that prompted either of us to take actions based on our differing views that might have hurt the other one. Still, sometimes it had to go down that way in order for one of us to be able to live with ourselves. There were, and are,those hard places. But as Scotty Peck said, he felt that people get married for the friction !!" It's the hard stuff -- the friction -- that we learn from -- hopefully.

But I wasn't clear enough in my original post. This thread was to be for discussion by and for people who need no invisible means of support. NOT people of faith. No disrespect meant, really, but "faith", or the bible, or any other book is any kind of proof of anything to me---and generally it isn't proof of anything to most other atheists either. It's laws to keep the folks in line when wandering in both the actual desert--and in the desert of their minds.

With respect and affection,

Art

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:11 AM

Personally, I don't think it can be "proved" one way or the other...that's why it is called FAITH.

Some have faith in God and others have faith in no God...the decision is totally yours.

For me, I wonder how a person couldn't have faith in God (by whatever name), because the alternative is what? Have faith in myself? To a certain extent, sure....but there's so much that goes far beyond human beings that it makes no sense to me that there isn't more.

I can't prove many things but that doesn't mean they don't exist...

Michelle

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:24 AM

Folks, Art has eloquently and simply stated what he is after here. Let us honor his wishes and not hijack the thread from the stated intent. Besides, it is a fascinating subject which I will follow with great interest.

So ....... Christians, Jews, Witnesses, etc., let us butt out as requested by one of our best.

Mick

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:25 AM

Art, as I age and gain wisdom (or not), I find that so many of life's toughest questions really come down to conflicting definitions. What is "God"? What is "a god"? What is "conservative," what is "liberal," what is "torture," what is "folk music," etc. We argue about these things -- endlessly -- largely because we each have our own conception of what the words mean.

When people seek to define those words, they do so by using other words that are equally open to interpretation. For instance, if God is defined as a "supreme being" (which seems to be a common definition), what do "supreme" and "being" mean? Does God have a life? (What is "life"?) Does God exist as an entity that is separate and distinct from the consciousness of the people who believe in him? (What is "consciousness"?) Does the existence of the thought or concept of "God," in and of itself, make God real? (What is "real"?) The questions are endless, and the answers are always a matter of interpretation. Some might say that this is just playing with words, but words are all we have to use, and I would maintain that the answers to these questions depend on a cascade effect of definitions and interpretations that simply cannot be nailed down with the precision that is needed to get us to agree on what we're talking about.

At any rate, like you, I believe that God does not exist as a separate, distinct (to say nothing of anthropomorphic) entity who created the physical universe we inhabit. I simply see no evidence that this is so, and I see much that suggests that people have adopted these beliefs for psychological reasons -- good ones, perhaps, but that doesn't necessarily translate into literal truth. (What is "truth"? Pilate posed that question, of course, and I think it is one of the most interesting passages in the Bible.) However, if "God" is a synonym for "consciousness," and our consciousness is what allows us to experience the universe (unlike a tree falling in the forest, of which no one is conscious), then perhaps, in a sense, God really did create the universe? If I accept that, do I believe in God after all? Is it the same God that others believe in?

You can spend a lifetime pondering these questions, and many have. But if we take the most prosaic, mundane approach to defining these terms, then I'm with you on this; I do not believe that there's some old, bearded, guy floating around up in the clouds, causing floods, throwing thunderbolts, and deciding the outcome of the World Series.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:29 AM

You should read Terry Pratchett then!

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:40 AM

In the long run, does it matter if those things that make up the core of human-ness -- things like caring for others, never injuring another unnecessarily, trying to understand the world around you -- derive from Yahweh, Krishna, or from the minds of philosophers? Perhaps those entities we call "gods" or "goddesses" are nothing more (or less) than the collective wisdom of the human race.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:41 AM

I don't care to argue for or against the existence of "God" today, but I will say this ...

NO alchemist, scientific genius or metaphysical guru has managed yet to produce living substance from dead atoms. Life is supported by non-living material (Ie air) and forces (ie gravity), but cannot be artificially generated from non-living matter by any known means.

IMO, the best explanation human beings have come up with yet is that without life-force energy - that mysterious, invisible force the Chinese call chi, the Hawaiians and the ancient Europeans called mana, and the Hindus call prana - 'dead' matter remains forever inanimate.

Blind faith in some Being supposedly up in the clouds watching over everything is not a prerequisite for recognizing life-force energy as the ever-present, indispensable, and yes invisible foundation which organizes, supports and maintains all life. “Beliefâ€쳌 is not necessary for working successfully with that energy to one's advantage, and in so doing realizing the awesome healing, generative and constructive Power each and every one of us has at our disposal, every day of our lives.

I know. I've been studying and practicing energetic techniques for a few years now, and I continue to reap the wonderful rewards of my efforts every day of my life.   Life has changed SO much - I just seem to be happier, healthier, more loving, positive, productive, grateful and understanding every day!   

Hey, I actually look forward to the coming day when I open my eyes in the morning these days! It felt so strange at first to have more than enough energy to easily accomplish everything I need to do. And I can fall asleep at night in 2 minutes flat now, with nothing but thankful, positive, affirming, joyful thoughts and images running round the brain.

This a totally new experience of life, for me, believe me!

Anyway, I have no problem recognizing the host of invisible physical and non-physcial forces or energies supporting my life - from gravity and magnetism and electricity, to other peoples' physical/mental/emotional/imaginative energy and products thereof, to "mana" or "chi". And, surprisingly enough, I don't need (or want) "religion" in any way shape or form to do that!

All the best in your search for truth, Art.

daylia

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:49 AM

Hey, check out the fourth paragraph in the post above ... does anyone know where the strange characters that suddenly appeared around the word "Belief" might have come from?!?

I sure didn't put them there, and they didn't show up when I previewed my work!   

Did I hit some key I wasn't aware of? Or no .... egads, maybe the Big Guy's out to get me back now .....   

;-)

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:28 AM

NO alchemist, scientific genius or metaphysical guru has managed yet to produce living substance from dead atoms. Life is supported by non-living material (Ie air) and forces (ie gravity), but cannot be artificially generated from non-living matter by any known means.


Mighty fine assumption, but in fact, it has been done in laboratories. AND it is quite possible that all life is the by-product of someone interfering with dead atoms. Not just one Being, though. Maybe ALL beings do it. That means God is a highly distributed multi-threading network with no Central Server, a complex system-behaviour actually generated from a high number of simple transactions based on a simple set of rules.

A

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:53 PM

Mighty fine assumption, but in fact, it has been done in laboratories

It has?!? That's news to me! I'd love to see such a study (or two) if you could post it ....

That means God is a highly distributed multi-threading network with no Central Server, a complex system-behaviour actually generated from a high number of simple transactions based on a simple set of rules

Very interesting, Amos. I like it! But look what happens to the joy and love and bliss of it all when logic takes over    ;-)

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 08:54 PM

GUEST above is me, sorry

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 09:47 PM

In 1837 Andrew Crosse produced mites named Acarus Crossii from an electrified crystals composed of, among other things, potassium carbonate and metallic arsenic in an atomsphere of "oxihydrogen gas."

His work was duplicated by W. H. Weeks under far more rigorous conditions than those of Crosse.

I have no idea if this work has been done since; a mob spurred on by religious "zeal" burned down Crosse's laboratory. His notebooks still exist.

Others, during the 20th C., have done similar work, such as creating a "primal soup" from inorganic compounds that might have been present in and on a newly-formed Earth.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:06 PM

Check out the Astronomy Picture Of The Day site. Glorious things are up there. You can actually watch the "beast" slouching toward whatever---Bethlehem, New York, Andromeda, Orion's Horse-head Nebula coalescing and becoming stars and making planets with their own planets (moons--asteroids--comets) as human eyes watch it s-l-o-w-l-y happening---some of it in our own lifetimes.----And that sets the stage for more "coalescing" into primordial various and sundry soups---some of which can maybe incubate a kind of life naturally---by evolving.

(As Lou Costello said to Bud Abbott, "Naturally? He's on third.")----But given the necessary chance, he, Naturally, will steal home from third while the catcher maybe/maybe not, seemingly, drops the ball---. Then the White Sox batter runs safely to first. PURE CHANSE creates the momentum and...

...ant the Chicago White Sox won the WORLD SERIES with a clean sweep! That's close to being as momentous as life starting here on Earth----and wherever else (maybe). **SMILE**   ;-)

Folks, go look at that space photos site. There is a new one every day. And sometimes you can see what has happened when entire galaxies collide---and leave their tell(the)tale residue dust an' chunky stuff the size o' Venus to get "towed around the heavens all day"---like that good old song, 'That Lucky Old Sun' says. Our Cassini Probe has taken photo views of Saturn and all the simply unbelievable rings and many moons and asteroids. And the cloud patterns in the atmosphere of Jupiter---with methane gas dust storms larger than our whole planet Earth---layered like a spinning beaker filled with multi-viscous liquids------OR a Navajo sand painting meant to depict the stratas of the Badlands or the Wind River Valley. No I.D. there (Intelligent Design) that I can see. Just, once-you've-got-the-Hubble-Telescope, observable and eventually explainable nature processes.

It's the nature of the beast that's slouching toward Bethlehem Steel---at least until---as Si Kahn wrote:

"The mills have shut down,
It was all that I'd knowed,
Tell me where can I go?
Tell me where can I go."


Art Thieme

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:17 PM

Art, that's the opening page, the home page, for my computers both at home and at work.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:20 PM

Rapiere,

I was composing what I said while you were speaking here of primordial soup too. Fascinating.

We must be on to something!

Art

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:21 PM

*daylia*...it took me two searches, with "life laboratory "amino acid" as the final search term, to find this page, explaining how we are able to do, in a laboratory, the basic first steps of creating necessary constituents of life.

Of course we have not started from scratch and created something that swims or hops or does rap music, for, if scientific theory is true, it took many millions of years and trillions of reactions with lightning, water, chemicals...and chance... to get those amino acids to combine into enzymes and substances which are sensitive to light and having some primitive cellular structure. And many MORE millions of years to get creatures who could argue about it all!

The key here is "millions of years" and "trillions of reactions". It is very difficult to grasp or comprehend numbers like that....one does not visualize enormous amounts of time and molecular interactions, you just have to 'realize' somehow the math involved and be in awe of the process. It is not magic, it is just laws of probability...like going to Australia and meeting your 3rd grade school teacher in a pub...only 283,094,573,027,200,329 times MORE complicated and unlikely! (There were only 6 billion people who could have been in that pub!)

We do sort of understand how life could have happened in such circumstances, and we know other aspects of the equations that might also have influenced it all.......and that's why some of us, as Art asked, don't 'require' a Divine creation or ANY "intelligent design"...we are content to just see what we can unravel of the process.

Does this remove the need for morality and love and beauty and justice and personal creativity? Not at all! Wherever we came from, we are complex creatures who HAVE those concepts, and there are detailed philosophical theories which (try to) explain why we need principles and laws and concern for our own survival and interrelationships.

Now, this is obviously not enough for many....and of COURSE was not enough for out remote ancestors who gathered in caves and wondered why night became day and what made fire and how babies were made. They NEEDED explanations, and had no laboratories or Mudcat forum to debate it all. We have 'creation myths' from many, many cultures....are the ones which got put into famous books any better than stories about "turtles all the way down"? And if so, why?

   The Christian Bible is a very complex book, and has some wonderful insights about many things. Whether it is literally true is not something we can never prove, but it shows ways to approach many issues. I have always been fascinated by the story of the "Tower of Babel", because I always read into that an explanation of why we can have so many different versions of *TRUTH*...and all those tongues and all those minds and all those people have NEVER come to an agreement about why, and when, and how, we got where we are.

To sort of answer Art's question, I don't believe what I don't believe because there is SO much to explore without choosing one of ....thousands?...of competing theories. Science is NOT just one theory among many...it is a never ending attempt to learn and clarify.

so..........

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:31 PM

You want some interesting reading? (Yes...from a 'biased' viewpoint..*grin*) try this one which is one of the links from "turtles all the way down". It is both funny and instructive.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 06:30 AM

Pervasive Refusal Syndrome is the clinical situation where you think that your spouse or or well known close one has been replaced by a clone (or robot by the aliens).

The explanation for this is that the part of the brain that recognises the face is unable due to damage to consciously link with the part of the brain that associates the emotional experiences.

The unconscious thus comes up with a perfectly logical explanation as to why you think you recognise this person, but know that they are someone different.


Religious explanations and other myths are similar creations of teh unconcious mind.

Subject: RE: No invisible means of support
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:17 AM

Red Green has the explanation for all of mysticism, with the frequent line:

"The thing that men find it almost impossible to say; - - - -
- - - - - - -'I DON'T KNOW!'"

But I'm not sure whether he realizes it.(?)

When you don't know the answer, I find it "unsatisfying" to see something fabricated from imagination and offered as an "answer."

The only correct answer is "I DON'T KNOW."

And if "I don't know," and if "I can't find out," then it really doesn't matter.

If it mattered, the way in which it mattered would give me a way to know. For the "truths" of the mystics, there is no way to know - except to choose which *liar to believe. ... And have faith.

*Please don't take offense, but the "liar" (a euphemism here) doesn't know either. If he did he could show me a proof. He can't, and has nothing to offer except "you must have faith." Same thing the other liar says, but a vaguely different thing "you must have faith" about.

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

What people do to each other "because they have faith" in one liar or another does matter. It can be easily shown that some people "believe" when it benefits them, and that their "belief" matters. Mostly it's not an impressive record.

John