Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:26 AM

Thank you Dave - put far more concisely (and certainly far more diplomatically) than I could.
Because I disagree with one aspect of a club's policy certainly does not mean I was 'smearing the reputation of a well-respected folk club'.
I have consistently asked of people on this thread what they would do about persistently bad singers - to date I have had no satisfactory reply, from Lewes nor from anywhere else.
Regarding our 'strange' (was she so strange?) lady of forty years ago (thirty actually), it is true that other residents took a different attitude to her than I did - that's why I distanced myself from the decision to continue putting her on in my first post "She invariably asked to sing and was allocated one song (not by me)."
It is quite possible - even usual - to be part of something you don't 100% agree with.
Suggesting that I have implied that "The Lewes Arms Folk Club is overwhelmed by non-singers" is as much of a distortion as was suggesting, as Bryan did once (Nov 8th, 8-35) (though he later excused himself by describing it as rhetoric - something he is not prepared to extend to the rest of us), and several others have done persistently, on this thread.
As far as I am concerned, in spite of our often conflicting opinions and the heated way in which we ALL occasionally deliver, them we all have something to say to and learn from each other - and long may that continue to be that case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:45 AM

Context again, Bryan.

Richard - please tell us who (apart from those of you championing crap standards) has mentioned 'audition'.

Is the first time the phrase was used (2nd Nov. 5:42AM) In my opinion it was a poor choice of words but definitely vague enough to be not directed at anyone in particular. I took 'those championing etc.' to be the any clubs who consitantly put out poor shows. I guess you took it to mean you, but we know that you are not 'championing crap standards'. Just the opposite in fact, by promoting the workshops you are working to improve standards.

I know that Jim can speak for himself so it is probably redundant of me to say that this whole argument seems based firmly upon wrong assumptions about what is and is not inteded! And I think you have achieved another first btw - I find myself in agreement with both You and Jim:-) We are all working towards improved standards!

Anyroads - took the car to the club last night and left it there so going to pick it up now. Out of interest we had only two support acts last night - Me and Dereck! Dereck did 4 excelent unaccompanied songs. I managed to cock up a simple waltz in the first half but redeemed myself in the second:-) Jon Harvison was brilliant as ever and we got well over 90 minutes of him. Even though the audience was small, it was a high quality one:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:17 AM

Hasn't this thread strayed somewhat off topic?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:43 AM

Actually Jim I thought that I had submitted an answer to dealing with persistently bad performers. At every club with which I have been connected (4 in 42 years)the MC has always had licence to put on who he/she deems suitable and in which order and if it goes tits up then they have some explaining to do; believe me I have been on the wrong end a time or two! However if a persistently bad performer finds themselves not being asked to participate on a regular basis then their own sensitivity should tell them that something is amiss. Unfortunatley as I said earlier the lesser the talent the greater the ego and if the club organiser/mc is approached by the wounded would be performer then it is their duty to inform them as gently and diplomatically as possible that they are not of the standard that the club aims to present. More than often this will result in a torrent of abuse aimed at both the club and it's residents but at least the would be performer has got the message.
The above action was applied to my mate and I many years ago at Birtley club (read Pete Wood's just published"The Elliotts of Birtley" for a full description) and it worked for both of us.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,KevBoyd
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

Suegorgeous wrote:
"Hasn't this thread strayed somewhat off topic?"

Err, no I don't think it has. But if the question had been "Has it strayed into tedium and monotony", then the answer would have to be yes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:10 AM

Maybe the situation is slightly affected by the number of alternatives on offer. We're a bit spoiled in the East Midlands by the fact that there is usually a large choice of folk/acoustic venues within quite a close range and singers can pick and choose a bit to find one suited to their focus/ level of ability.

I used to live in the south-east (in Crowborough, not far from Lewes) and no for a fact that the situation is a bit different in that clubs ar a bit thinner on the ground -we've sometimes struggled to find anywhere on a partivular night when we visit that part of the world.

It's hard for singers to go somewhere else when there is only a limited range, so perhaps you need a bit of an all-encompassing philosophy.

We've never actually been around there at the right time to go to the Lewes club, but I've met people from there at festivals and all the reports I've heard seem to be very favourable.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:14 AM

David el Gnomo

Dave, I'm sure your intervention is well meant but please read the posts.

Context again, Bryan

Correct. From Jim Carroll's post of 03 Nov 08 - 05:16 AM -

If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.

Pretty straight and to the point. Nothing rhetorical there as far as I can see.

If we can get past that, I might find the time to address the other points although it would be nice to know that I wasn't going to attract further abuse from Jim.

Just for the record, I have never said, rhetorically or otherwise, that Jim was proposing auditions.

Read the thread.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:23 AM

Richard Bridge.
Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:29 PM

Goose, gander,what do you mean?are you trying to bring this to a personal level.
I have explained that while I ran clubs I never had to refuse a floor singer,but an organiser has that right.
if it happened to me I would accept it.,then stay the night if it was someone I wanted to see,or leave quietly if it wasnt.
however I dont need to do floor spots,and with respect,it is a little far to come from Ireland on the off chance.
I am next in England in april 2009 for a week,and am working every night.
if I had anight free I would probably pop in to a local club and do a floor spot,I did this at Stockton last year when Debra Cowan was the guest.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM

Acorn4

clubs ar a bit thinner on the ground -we've sometimes struggled to find anywhere on a partivular night when we visit that part of the world.

Really? Where are you comparing with? There are two here in Lewes alone about 200yds apart. Have a look at the
Folk Diary.

Lewes club

Tut,tut. Do you mean the Lewes Arms Folk Club in Lewes on a Saturday or the Royal Oak Folk Club in Lewes on a Thursday?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:22 AM

Oh dear, the struggle to get the point across without being unnecessarily insulting.

If one has generically the right to object to an inferior performer then those who wish to object to one have a similar right.

If one believes that one will never be subject to such an objection then one has a view about one's own standard, and that it is not inferior.

When I was at university I played a bit of squash. I was chatting to another student in the coffee queue one day and it turned out he played. He said "I'm not bad actually" to decline the game. I thought what a conceited fellow he must be (since I was in fact playing number 3 or 4 most weeks on the university team that year). It turned out he was rated number 2 or 3 in the country UAU rankings. So in fact he was being properly self-effacing by saying that he was not bad.

Does that put it in context without being short?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:43 AM

Thanks, Bryan. At least you now realise my posts are well intentioned. Far better than misrepresentative and sarcastic:-) I am still of the opinion that both you and Jim want the same thing, as indeed do I, but who am I to interfere if either of you choose to argue about the wording of how you put it. I'll leave you to it.

Richard. Accepted. If I choose to not put on a particular floor singer on a guest night then I accept that other club organisers have the right to do the same with me. It is not a question of being superior or inferior it is just a question of who can I get on and who will provide the best entertainmnet under a very specific and ever changing set of circumstances.

If, on a guest night at a 'foreign' club, I was not asked to do a floor spot I would not even think twice about it. If however on a singers or open night I was not invited I would probably ask the organiser why.

Why does everone seem to argue in extemes? Clubs are neither full of bad peformers nor poor performers. There is good and bad in every club I have ever visited. The very bad, who fall below 'the standard' are a tiny minority, just as are the exceptionaly good acts. The vast majority are somewhere in between.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

I was aware of the two clubs in Lewes, and also know the organisers of the Seaford club well. We have been down to the "Folk and Ale" at Upper Dicker for the last three years, and have also visited the Maidstone club.

I wouldn't want to disparage the south-east at all being born and brought up there, and first sang in public at a club called "The Compasses" in Tunbridge Wells; I helped to organise a short lived effort in Crowborough about 30 years ago, and have particularly fond memories of one run at the Junction in Groombridge.

It's just that, within a 30 mile radius of Leicester, I worked out that there are 64 venues running folk/acoustic sessions, so in a sense, we are a bit spoilt.

The comment was supposed to be by way of possible explanation for one or two other comments made.

It would also be interesting to know if anyone else remembers the compasses!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:46 AM

Whoops - should read "Clubs are neither full of bad peformers nor perfect performers."

Sorry.

BTW - The car was still there and in one piece. Things must be looking up in Salford...:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM

Acorn4

I was aware of the two clubs in Lewes

Ah, put perhaps you missed Vic's post earlier. Hence the "tut, tut." This does sometimes give us problems, especially if booked guests just put "Lewes Folk Club" on their gig lists.

From here amongst the Downs, Crowborough is a bit outlandish and Tunbridge Wells nought but a travellers tale. Someone I met at Tenterden did say that Kent was a bit thin for folk clubs and all that miles-and-miles of Weald between here and there is "Here be Dragons" country. I don't think we are doing that bad in Sussex but nice to hear things are so good around Leicester.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

Acorn4 - as I recall, there was a pretty vibrant music scene in Leicester over 40 years ago! I worked for a short spell as a barman (which is what we were called in those days) in the upstairs "music" bar of a pub at the end of London Road (next door to the YMCA) called The Victoria. As I recall, there was blues/R&B on Thursdays, folk on Fridays and jazz on Saturdays and sometimes Sundays. And that was just one pub! Good to hear it's still all happening there.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:35 AM

I have yet to see a club with a sign up outside, or a note on its website, that states "Only decent singers who know all the words and can play their instrument well, without a mistake, need enter". I suspect if one did then, whilst their elitism may stand tall, their number would drop exponentially. Can you imagine this thread if only all the good player/singers were allowed? For even among them there would be better and worse. I certainly prefer a rich and varied club attendence where all are given and equal chance and an equal applause.

Attending such clubs I have seen so many improve weekly - as I would like to think I have done some weeks - and I have had chance to hear new songs, new stories, learn much history and find great companionships as the time passes.

It seems 'weak' singers/musicians would not/should not be allowed through the musical glass ceiling being erected by some in their ivory towers and I think Folk will be the poorer for it.

Having watched this thread for a couple of weeks I have taken a great deal on board tried to 'clean up my act' and be more well mannered in those areas I was slipping (my phone is always on silent now and I tend to sort music before the night). I'm afraid my singing/playing will never be on the level of so many of those around me. I have even considered stopping playing publically. What keeps me at it is the level of support I get from those around me in the clubs I go to. I am so lucky to be attending the clubs that do not appear to have this invisible, but very obvious, musical glass ceiling that exists in those attended by others.

It saddens me that, had this been my first experience of the Folk scene (reading this thread) I would never have dared venture out to a club at all. We really ought to all be singing off the same crib sheet ;-)

Best wishes

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:42 AM

Well it seems to me mauvepink that you have read the thread but learned nothing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Who shall guard the guards


It seems I may have learned something I do not myself like Silas. I was just surprised to find so many judges when I was naïve to think all Folk people stood for the same thing but had diverse tastes within the subject.

I may have learned nothing other than to be surprised because what I have seen here I have thankfully not experienced on the local folk scene. I have seen enough of the tread to know my own mind though and I am sincere in saying I may well have stayed away for fear of all the judges had I know so many existed.

We all judge. We all have our likes and dislikes. But what happened to warm welcomes and live and let live? My comments are not meant as a personal attack on anyone. I have just found myself very surprised is all

Best wishes

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

Acorn4,
       Whoever suggested Kent was thin on the ground for music and dance venues missed the quite a bit.


Chatham Theatre
Orpington (Friday)
Orpington (Thursday)
Walmer
Ashford Theatre
Tun. Wells
Rainham
Otford
Gillingham
Tenterden
Stone Street
Dartford
Whitstable
Isle of Sheppey
Stansted
Broadstairs
Cowden Pound
The above are just the ones advertised. There are other sessions, events and dance nights to be found.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

It seems 'weak' singers/musicians would not/should not be allowed through the musical glass ceiling being erected by some in their ivory towers

How on earth did you draw that conclusion from reading this thread, mp? Nowhere does it say that anyone should be stopped from performing. Far from it. We go out of our way to encourage everyone to get involved and many clubs offer the opportunity for people to improve themselves as well.

If by 'the glass ceiling erected by those in ivory towers' you are objecting to my reluctance to let some people loose on the paying public then, yes, guilty as charged. Maybe you should ask why you have not been invited to perform at the next Bellowhead concert? After all wanting to put on a professional show for the paying public is such an elitist thing to do.

I have said it until I am blue in the face. We have 28 singers nights a year at which ANYONE can do ANYTHING (public decency permitting:-) ) On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music. Is that so wrong?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: mauvepink
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:15 AM

I obviously must have misread a great deal then and, if so, I apologise. But I am not on about elitism at the paying public end. There has to be some sort of standard (though I guess the paying public themselves set it at some point by who they are willing to watch). If I pay good money for a ticket I want the singer(s)/performer)s) to be of a standard. Of course. It is not always guaranteed though obviously.

I also do not seek bookings. I am no-where near good enough to be paid for singing. It could be argued if I was good enough at all to sing at a club.

What I refer to is what seems to be looking down noses at people of a lesser ability or experience. Calling people with little ability names. I am sure I have seen it in this thread but if I imagined it then again I am sorry.

Let us forget the payed for tickets angle. In essence I am saying we all need each other. We should all support each other if we can. Many do (I know because I have had much help and much of it from pro-singers) but name calling does not seem fair, especially on beginners and people learning an instrument. This, of course is only my opinion and belief. I have merely stated it as others have theirs.

Maybe that is wrong too?

I just wish we could all be pulling together morw and I got the impression in this thread we are not as kind as forgiving as maybe some of us could be. If I am wrong to say so then I am indeed sorry. I'll stay off the thread, but keep attending the clubs ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:19 AM

hi Dave,and have to say how much I enjoyed guesting at your club.
Swinton folk club,is a friendly club,with a good core of singers,and could not by any stroke of the imagination be descibed elitist,or exclusive .
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:30 AM

OK, mauvepink. I think you are right when you say 'I got the impression in this thread we are not as kind as forgiving as maybe some of us could be'. That is a far cry from suggesting that this thread would put people off folk music. Remember saying It saddens me that, had this been my first experience of the Folk scene (reading this thread) I would never have dared venture out to a club at all. Only a few posts ago?

Sorry if some of us are not as diplomatic as others. If I see someone struggling with words or a tune or whatever I tend to say 'I think it may work better if...' or some such. Some people may ignore it completely. Some people, whom I have a certain amount of admiration for, will call a spade a spade and just say 'Sorry, but that is crap. You need to improve.' That is just a fact of life. It happens everywhere. Why should folk clubs be different?

If we were to expect only kind words and praise for what we did none of us would ever improve because we would believe there is nothing wrong with what we are doing!

Hope this explains my attitude at least and goes a long way to explaining why your synopsis of the thread may be flawed. Maybe it would be better if you just didn't read the posts that offend your sensibilities;-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:42 AM

mp - the only way that a club organiser can discover that a performer does not meet their club's standards is by giving them a chance in the first place!I have defended the position of the floor singer/performer all the years that I have been on the folk scene and at our club we are proud of the number of floor performers that we can attract and present on a given night (even when a guest is booked, which is most months)
Unfortunately I do not have the powers posessed by a fellow committee member some years ago who, after I had put on a performer who was totally unaware of his own shortcomings, informed me "he even looked like a crap singer!!"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:54 AM

Once again people have retreated behind straw man of their own construction - ie glass ceilings, elitism, etc.
The question from the point this thread veered from club manners to club standards was this;

SHOULD PEOPLE WHO ARE UNABLE TO HOLD A TUNE, MEMORISE A TEXT WITHOUT THE AID OF A CRIB SHEET OR INTERPRET A SONG TO THE EXTENT OF COMMUNICATING IT TO THE LISTENER BE ENCOURAGED TO SING IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE?

Simple as that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:06 PM

Oh dear, I hope I haven't lit the blue touch paper in that old rivalry between Sussex and Kent. I know how fierce that one can get.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

Ahhhh - Were that it was that simple, Jim! I think your key phrase there is 'should they be encouraged to'. To which the answer should be a resounding maybe:-) If you mean should they be encouraged to continue as they are - absolutley not. If they are that bad and incapable of improving then I see no reason why they should be denied the joy of singing altogether. But it should be on the very strict understanding that they limit their performances to where they can do no harm to the reputation of either the club they attend or folk music in general. If you mean should they be encouraged to get better, then yes, of course they should.

There is of course an alternative readily available for the naturaly untalented. Karaoke:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM

I'm not sure whether my informant that things were a bit thin in Kent was a Kentish Man or a Man of Kent. I can't tell them apart, meself.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:50 PM

No, I fear that mauvepink reads it aright. There seem to be those on this thread who will set barriers for others.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

Sigh...

There are barriers and barriers, Richard. Would you put the winner of the worst singer in worseville during the year of the worse on with your prestigious showcase celebration of Lucianno Pavarotti sings Mrs Mills greatest hits?

Yes??!?! Damn. I need to think of a different barrier then...

Seriously though. Do you believe there should be NO barriers at all? Would you, as a club organiser (are you btw?) risk putting on a completely unprofessional act during a concert for which you have just charrged 50 people £5 each? I wouldn't. And if that is a barrier then include me as the one of the people who sets barriers.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM

GUEST,Spleen Cringe

In support of the esteemed Senor El Gnomo, can I add my tuppence in that when Pip Radish and I visited his folk club on the night that Captain Birdseye was strutting his enjoyable stuff, both Pip and I (at least one of whom was sporting a most unseemly tank top), despite being untried, untested outsiders on a guest night, were offered the opportunity to cough our way through a tune.

David el Gnomo

Would you, as a club organiser (are you btw?) risk putting on a completely unprofessional act during a concert for which you have just charrged 50 people £5 each?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM

Well
So far Dave e G has given an answer - any more takers?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:29 PM

I wouldn't.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:33 PM

As a matter of interest, how many times over what period have the folk club organisers here present actually found it necessary to tell anybody they were not good enough to have a floor spot?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

Imagine the scenario:

A high profile guest has been booked who is expected to draw in a capacity audience.

A five piece folk band, who you know to be very proficient but who you haven't seen at the club since at least a year ago, turn up wanting one of the three or four floor slots you have available. You know that they have probably come because they know there will be a large audience courtesy of the main guest's reputation, and they might sell a few CDs, get bookings, but you also know you probably won't see them again until you get another popular guest night.

One of the regulars who comes to the singaround every week also asks about a slot. They probably come into the "took years of practice to get this crap" bracket, but they are a loyal follower of the club, who perhaps helps with raffle, organisation ,etc.

I know guests often appreciate good warm up acts, but it's not easy, is it?

Sounds a bit like one of those scenarios they give you on training days doesn't it?

One of our local festivals has a final singaround when the preference for slots is given to the Stewards who have worked at the festival. I can't really see any problem in this.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:08 PM

I don't understand the point of your last two quotes, Bryan. I didn't risk putting on a completely unprofessional act - I did take a chance that Phil and Nigel would be good and the chance paid off. I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt hence my earlier comments about always asking newcomers if they want a support slot. To try and suggest that I am contradicting myself is rather disingenuous and completely off the mark. Is that what you were trying to achieve? If so it didn't work!

The big difference between risking putting on a known bad act and a trying out a completely unknown act should be pretty obvious. I don't think even you could misinterpret that one. Although I could be wrong:-) Besides, the tank top was worn with such style and panache that I knew I was onto a winner.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

Oh, and sorry, to the other question. I have never had to tell anyone in 30 years of running the Swinton club. I just don't put them on as often as good performers. Seems a good compromise between letting the minority do their own thing and keeping the majority happy. We did recently, as I said earlier, tell one of our performers his electric guitar was too loud. He has not brought it since.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

The club I'm a resident singer at on a Sunday have a policy on guest nights where only one of the four residents (ranging from me as a solo singer, two duos - one male/female and the other male/male, and a four pice harmony quartet) do the support. Four songs in the first half and either three or four in the second half depending on time left. The guest then gets at least 40 minutes per half. The resident for each night is chosen to contrast the guest where possible so I wouldn't do the support for Harvey Andrews say. It doesn't matter who comes through the door asking for a spot they won't get one. On the other three/four nights of the month which are run as a singaround anybody can have their turn if they want to do something. It's worked for as long as the club's been running and only once have I seen someone come in expecting to sing and left because it was a guest. Maybe he didn't have enough cash to get in but I wasn't running after him to find out.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:18 PM

My memory's not what it was, but I'm pretty sure Nigel was wearing the tank top. You're right about the style and panache, though.

To be fair to Bryan, I misread that line similarly. It's the difference between "putting on someone you haven't heard and taking the risk that they'll turn out to be below-par" and "putting on someone who was below-par the last time you heard them, and taking the risk that they'll do it again". The latter, when there are paying customers, would be daft. The former - well, I couldn't possibly comment, but thanks!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:23 PM

David el Gnomo

The big difference between risking putting on a known bad act and a trying out a completely unknown act should be pretty obvious.

Yes, with the known act you know how bad they are going to be; with the unknown act, they could be absolutely horrendous.

What if Mr Cringe had said yes?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

They could indeed, Bryan, they could indeed. But they were not. And he didn't. So the point is what exactly?

I think we exhausted the issue of pointless rhetoric earlier.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:41 PM

I just find it a little curious that you insist that "There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club." but you are prepared to put on total unknowns on the dubious grounds that they want to sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:02 PM

Thankfully Snail only three times in forty two years that I can remember. Some of the others who turned in wretched performances either learned from the less than enthusiastic response from the audience or gathered from the fact that they were not asked to perform again that they might not be as good as they thought they were.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

Bryan, of course I am prepared try something I do not know. How else do we get more experience? I am a natural optimist and, as yet, not been proved wrong. I have never once suggested I would not try someone new. Are you suggesting I should? Or maybe you are suggesting that my trust is misplaced because I am more likely to get someone bad than someone good? Surely not? You have argued all along that the quality of performers at folk clubs is generaly high. I have always agreed. Therefore the laws of probablility are in my favour. Where are you getting with this arguement?

All I have said all along is that I would restrict KNOWN poor performers who do not make any effort to improve. You seem to be trying to find faults with the points we agree on!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

Oh - and to set the record straight. Even though I had not heard Phil personaly he is not a 'total unknown' as you put it. I know him by reputation around local clubs as a good singer and from the Mudcat as an excellent source of knowledge and witty raconteur.

You can send me the cheque later, Pip. :-D

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM

I just wish Swinton wasn't the best part of 15 miles away with no direct bus route home...

Bryan, my earlier comments were a plea for singers like me to do everyone the favour of knowing their own limitations. Surely it was clear I wasn't having a pop at Dave de Dverg or inviting others to do so on the basis of my comments? Surely as a club organiser you can appreciate the wisdom of my stance, even if you may privately suspect I'm being a bit of a wuss? When I'm next in your neck of the woods I'm going to try to get to the Lewes wossername and I'm going to extent you the same courtesy - my silence (except on the odd chorus). You'll thank me, I swear! Pip, who sings rather nicely, as I'm sure Dave de Kabouter was aware, needs no such straitjacket.

Or tank top. Ok, it was mine...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:02 PM

Before I go out may I try to summarise what the argument is about?

It appears that we agree on all points bar one. What to do about performers who CONSISTANTLY put in a poor show. There are many areas in between but it seems to me that there are three major contenders -

1. They are stopped from performing regularly at the club until they improve. (Jim Carroll)

2. They are allowed to perform but only in restricted circimstances (el Gnomo) and

3. They can continue performing as long as they want. (Snail)

If this is the case, and I accept I may have summarised incorrectly, then surely all three methodologies work in different circusmstances as we can all prove with our own evidence.

Does anyone here believe that their way is the best? I think not. Does anyone think it is the only way? Nope.

What on earth are we arguing about then?

I would like answers to both Jims and Bryans questions though - It is important as club organisers that we use each others experiences and knowledge to help run our own clubs better!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

David el Gnomo

Where are you getting with this arguement?

Dunno Dave. Maybe I'm just a bit bored.

But actually -

You seem to be trying to find faults with the points we agree on!

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that we DO agree on much more than you have been prepared to admit and that what you do in practice is inconsistent with some of the things you have said.

Quoting you again -

There should be no difference in quality between the Bellowhead concert and a guest night at or club.

and you said to mauvepink -

Maybe you should ask why you have not been invited to perform at the next Bellowhead concert?

You go on to say -

We have 28 singers nights a year at which ANYONE can do ANYTHING (public decency permitting:-) ) On the other 24 we are showcasing what, in our opinion, is best in folk music.

How can someone you've never heard who just turns up on the night be "in our opinion, [the] best in folk music"? What is the basis of your opinion?

I actually think you are (with some reservations) doing the right thing. I just don't think you are doing what you claim to be doing.

I don't think I've said "that the quality of performers at folk clubs is generaly high.". I just think that it is very rarely bad and, so far, my mini survey seems to bear that out. Generally the standard is OKish up to brilliant. How does that compare with your core singers night crowd? Why is a total stranger more likely to be the "best in folk music"?

Alternatively, I could just be marking time while I wait for Jim Carroll to admit that I did not misrepresent him about the auditions business and to apologise for saying that I champion crap singing.

Could be a while.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:25 PM

Mr Cringe (may I call you Spleen), my point was not about your (entirely honourable) action in declining the offer to perform but about Mr Gnome's making of the offer in the first place which seems to imply that the magnificence of your tank top showed you to be one of the best in folk music.

We will be glad to see you at the Lewes Arms Folk Club (I cannot speak for the Royal Oak) but be prepared for the fact that you will probably be asked, the moment you walk in the door, if you would like to do a floor spot.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM

David el Gnomo

It appears that we agree on all points bar one. What to do about performers who CONSISTANTLY put in a poor show.

My point on this is that such people are so rare as to not constitute a real problem. Having a policy to deal with them is about as worthwhile as having a policy to deal with the occasion when the Glyndebourne chorus turn up. Not impossible; we have had individual members occasionally. Do you give them one song or thirty? We cannot decide our policy on ALL floor singers on the basis of something that rarely, if ever, happens.

Does anyone here believe that their way is the best?

Yes. Jim does.

Does anyone think it is the only way?

Yes. Jim does.

Of your way, he says -

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

Of my way, he says -

I find the suggestion that the only standard required to perform publicly is the desire to do so totally crass; be it from you or the Lewes committee.

and -

If you have written into your policy that the criterion for being allowed to sing is wanting to do so - yes, you are, if not championing, then certainly promoting bad singing.