Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM

I `ad that Dave el Gnomo in my cab the other day and `e was looking well disturbed.
`e said, " take me to `arley Street please, I gotta` get some counselling"
I said, "What, working stress or something?"
`e said "Nah, it`s all them on that Mudcat. They want me to put tossers on the nights we got paid guests. They`re doin` my `ead in. What would you do with `em, eh?"
I said ,"What, the tossers? Charge `em twice the ante. You might get a few punters and guests rattled for a while but at least you`d be quids in!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:33 AM

Talking about manners, last night a woman who had won a 'free entry' in the raffle at the last concert, duly arrived with two teenagers for whom she happily paid admission, plus a toddler of two or so. They stayed at the back of the room and the toddler played on the floor, so there was obviously some thought being taken. Unfortunately, it's not possible for a child of that age to stay quiet, or understand why it should do so, for the best part of three hours, nor can you tell them to just whisper, so frequently a serious or quiet song was totally destroyed by said child's voice.

My own feeling is that children of that age should never be taken into this sort of situation where inevitably other people's enjoyment will be spoilt. What do the panel think?

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

when I began learning fiddle, I was encouraged, quite early on, to play at our folk club. I was desperatley nervous, scraped through my number and received rapturous applause. The members were and still are extremely kind and supportive. Other 'not perfect by any means' folks take their turns along with some very accomlished performers.

I've practised and improved (loads of room for more improvement) and now do a regular turn. Recently one of the 'accomplished' performers told me he remembered my first 'scrape' and said how well I was coming along. Can't describe how good thast felt.

I now play with a number of other folks in various settings - and I wouldn't be at the stage I'm at had it not been for those first awkward attempts and the kindness and encouragement with which they were received.

There are often people who sing or play at our club who you think really ought not, but they deserve their chance, and are greatly outnumbered by great performances and 'join-in-alongs'

If things get too excruciating, then the organisers should have a quiet, supporive, diplomatic word, but on the whole, let's give people chance to express themselves and do our bit by being considerate while others are performing, and prepare ourselves by practising and learning our 'spots'.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:56 AM

I was the MC last night when John Kirkpatrick was the guest. It took a bit of organising but I managed to get everybody on for a floorspot that wanted one.

Nobody walked out demanding their money back. John didn't complain. A good time was had by all.

One new face said he'd like to sing next time. We didn't thrust an application form into his hand demanding three references and a demo DVD, we said "Great. See you next week." He may be awful; he may be brilliant. From past experience of such things, he'll probably be OK.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

B%$*&^! Somebody eat my cookie. Last Guest was me.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM

We had kerfuffle on last week and I had 2 families bring along a 6 year old and a 10 year old.
I talked to them about keeping quite whilst the acts were on. I said that if they made too much noise, they would have to leave. The parents accepted that and I let the children in for nowt.
They werte well behaved and consequently no problems.
So it is possible Barbara, but the parents need to be made responsible and understand the terms that their children are allowed in.
Les

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:34 AM

One problem with children is that with evening sessions some folk humour can become rather ribald. Should watershed rules apply?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM

From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:53 PM

"Piers, I presume you did realise thet notorieties was the word and that you will forgive my sticky keyboard and poor typing skills. I can laugh at myself and my mistakes but really do consider it poor form to mock those less than proficient. In social skills as well as technical:-)"

I finished what I wrote below and I've been sitting here wondering how to apologize for my "poor form" and for mocking at what you wrote, and perhaps it's not nice of me, but I don't feel very apologetic. The truth is, I think you have some rather harsh words for poor performers   , or ones you consider poor and I think someone who's ready to dish it out should be prepared to take it. On the other hand, you didn't name any names and some people are sensitive about mistakes in spelling, grammar, etc., so I can see that you might have found my comment below the belt. So, I do apologize, though I still have some objections to what you've written, as I say below. I'm sorry that this isn't more gracious, but it's honest.

******

No, I didn't. I thought it might be a cross between "notables" and "luminaries" with perhaps an element of "notorious" or "notoriousness" thrown in. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I don't think "notorieties" is a word, either, nor do I believe that "notoriety" is a word that can refer to a person and "notoriety" isn't really something positive.

On the subject of hurting peoples' feelings, your postings rather left me with the impression that you might be a bit thicker-skinned, considering a couple of things you wrote, such as these quotes, which I have just cut and pasted, not edited:

"Poor performance is of course as discourteous as anything the audience does and, at the risk of getting shot down in flames as I have been before, I find some peoples performances can be downright embarasing."

"I really cannot understand why anyone but the most insensitive and dense people would feel that their poor performance warrant priority over paid artists. Particularly when people have parted with their hard earned cash to see someone good. There has never been anyone at our club, as far as I know, who has not understood that there may be people better suited to the circumstance than them and has not had the good grace to stand down when the need arises."

I do understand that a person running a club has to make sure he or she makes money and I can see the sense in some of what you write. However, to call it "discourteous" to get up on stage and try to perform or to use terms like "insensitive" and "dense" doesn't encourage me to seek out a folk club to perform. Nor does the idea of "being jumped on from a great height", for which, of course, you're not responsible.

"And no, it doesn't mean that someone who has been told they can perform is then asked not to. It means that our club residents and regulars all have enough common sense to understand that they cannot all get on on a guest night so they don't ask. Anyone who is ever invited to perform always gets to do so."

People who are invited. Perhaps I wasn't following the discussion, but I got the impression that it could be open-mike or a singaround (something I wasn't familiar with before), so that I wasn't referring to people who had been _invited_ to perform, but rather people who had shown up in the expectation that they could and perhaps had put their names down on the list. I imagined some "big-name" folk musician walking in the door and people being put to the end of the list. Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.

"I heard a good phrase yesterday. It's a shame that common sense isn't..."

I think most people show plenty of "common sense" when it comes to their own interest. I wish that kindness and tolerance were more common. I don't think anyone goes into the business of running a club with the idea of making a fortune and I do understand your point of view --- up to a point.

For various reasons, I haven't gotten out much in recent years and don't have friends to play music with. I love to play and have practiced a lot and would quite like to perform at an open-mike night or something similar. I do suffer from stage-fright and have some other problems so that this goal is not my top priority. Some of the postings in this thread have made me feel a lot less like doing it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

From: David el Gnomo - PM
"As we have a wealth of excelent singers and residents plus regular visitors including such notories as Stanley Accrington. Geoff Higginbottom and Gary and Vera Aspey there is never any question of someone with a poor performance record even wanting to do a floor spot."

Sorry to keep on, but I wanted to explain what really got my back up about this comment. It's the idea that someone wouldn't _want_ to do a floor spot because "excellent" performers, including several people of whom I've never heard, but may be fine people and wonderful performers. Nor do I know what a floor spot is, but I assume it involves performing and I'm sure I could find out without too much trouble. But why on earth should anyone expect that a person wouldn't want to sing his "Jimmy Crack-corn" or his "Big Rock Candy Mountain" just because someone "better" was in the room? That's not what music's about, for me, and certainly not folk music; at least, I'm clinging to the hope that it isn't.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:57 AM

You are quite right, Piers. I am indeed thick skinned and was in no way offended by your comment. I must disagree with your assetion that noterieties is not a word though -

no⋅to⋅ri⋅e⋅ty
   /ˌnoʊtəˈraɪɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [noh-tuh-rahy-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1.         the state, quality, or character of being notorious or widely known: a craze for notoriety.
2.         Chiefly British. a notorious or celebrated person.

The acts I mention would be quite pleased to see themselves refered to as notorious I assure you:-)

Perhaps I wasn't following the discussion, but I got the impression that it could be open-mike or a singaround Yes, you are quite right again. You was not following the discussion, but I am happy to shoulder the blame for that - I did not make it clear enough. Absolutley anyone who asks will get a performance spot on singers night. Whether they play guitar like Martin Carthy, sing like an angel or recite Vogan poetry while farting the theme from Eastenders. On a guest night however we cannot get any more than 4 support singers on. If five people ask to perform then we have a decision to make. Is it so wrong to decide to put on the ones who will provide the best entertainment?

Sorry, your last post doesn't make sense to me. It has nothing to do with people not wanting to sing big rock candy mountain because there is someone better in the room. Anyone and everyone can do what they want in front of whoever they want on a singers night. On a guest night however I am one of the organisers and have to occasinaly say no. Oh - and I have said no to notorieties as well as poor performers;-) How does that make me the villain of the piece?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

Ah, caught out by "chiefly British" again. Never heard of a person being a notoriety. And so, I suppose two would be a pair of "notorieties". It's a fair cop, guv.

"If five people ask to perform then we have a decision to make. Is it so wrong to decide to put on the ones who will provide the best entertainment?"

I don't know; I'm sure it's a tough call. It's your club, you can do as you see fit.

"How does that make me the villain of the piece?"

I don't think you're "the villain of the piece". My point wasn't the songs; someone "better" there wouldn't make me not want to perform, if that's what I went for and I would be disappointed if I couldn't. And I have been on the receiving end of snobbery in various kinds of situations. This phenomenon isn't limited to music.

You have your way of doing things and you're perfectly entitled to run them the way you like. You've got your audience and your patrons and if they're happy with it, that's what counts. I don't even live in the same country, so I couldn't visit your club even if I wanted to.
I get the impression that the "folk scene" is very strong and widespread in Great Britain and people there have a good chance of finding something to their taste.

It's somewhat different here (a medium-sized university town in Germany).

What you describe doesn't really sound like my sort of thing and I think it's quite possible that I'd be one of the ones who was asked not to perform or "jumped on from a great height". Why should I expose myself to that?

Sorry for having a go at you. I wish you continued success at your club.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:22 AM

Not wishing to start a new argument, or revive this one (laid to rest, I hope), but I recently heard a program on the radio about Jacques Brel. Apparently, an early review after he came to Paris read:

"Would someone please tell M. Brel that there are excellent train connections back to Brussels?"

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:15 PM

I love Jaques Brel stuff - There was a bloke called Cockney Eric at the Hare and Hounds who used to sing them in French. He was neither Cockney, French, or called Eric but there you go!

D,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:23 PM

With regard to kids at folk stuff.
They can be a pain in the butt at times due to being....KIDs.
We took our grand daughter to a few of V's happenings at Faldingworth LIve. SHe loved it, he was great with her, and because he made her feel welcome I think she settled down better even than she usualy does.
I do find it annoying when you get those parents who make the kids behavior everyone elses problem though.
(Tarquin, Jolian,Brittany take note.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

David - yes, I used to love Nigel (CE)'s Brel songs, although I remember him doing them in English. Haven't seen him in ages - don't know if he's still doing them.

Incidentally, I documented Jacques Brel's connections to the netherworld of George Formby impressionists here. "Where Heswall led, the Left Bank could only follow."

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

Wher do I send the ten quid Tim :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

Tim,

I think I've met Tarquin as well!

He was the one whose favourite amusement at Priddy Festival a few years back was shouting abuse at people through the doors while they were in the portaloos.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

He he keep the £10 towards your charity for battered and misunderstood club organisers V.
Acorn4
We are so proud of you for not shouting back at him.
LOL
The little darlings!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Girl Friday
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:18 PM

Kids at Folk Clubs? I'd sooner they stayed at home with a baby-sitter. I have been approached nicely by families wishing to come along, and always ask their age and if they are well behaved. It used to happen when I ran ticketed events. I asked for the full ticket price for the child. If the parents were prepared to pay, then you could bet that they would sit quietly and listen. Well behaved toddlers and babies usually went to sleep under the table when we had a reesident with a young family. They grew up with an appreciation of folk music. Parents who allow their kids to run free ... I think they just want a cheap night out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM

I'm sure glad the old folks thought it was ok for me to be around when I was very small..otherwise, I doubt I would have grown up interested in being musical.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM

Kids, eh?

We used to take our duaghter Rachel to our "home" club, the Rainham Oast, and I suppose she sarted coming with us when she was 6 or 7. In due course she told us she wanted to do song (on a singers' night). We made her practice it at home. She was then 8.

I'll never forget Keith Pearson's face (for it was his PA rig at the club). Up went young ginger, looking a little on edge. Ah, he thought, sweet little girl, and edged the mic gain up a bit - and Jacqui started the guitar line and people could see it was going to be "Whip Jamboree".

"WHIP!" started Rachel - and Keith dived for the controls as the speaker cones bade fair to hit the opposite wall!

After that, she always got a slot, and he always said that she was the only singer in the club who it up ALL the overload lights on his little desk.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:15 AM

Completely barking mad you are, Pip. Now did I ever tell you of my great uncle, Blind Willie Higginthorpe, the only Lancashire coal mining blues man. Used to play the blues on spoons and paper and comb because he thought he was black? No? Ah well, another time maybe...

Yes, anyway, I think you are quite right. CE had a French wife or partner who used to translate for him so I do believe a lot of his Brel stuff was done in English. I do remember though him taking the Mount in Fleetwood by storm. I am not so sure if it was because he did 'The port of Amsterdam', in French, with choreography, or because the singaround had actualy finished two hours earlier. I suppose we will never know.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:18 AM

"With regard to kids at folk stuff.
They can be a pain in the butt at times due to being....KIDs."

We take our kids to a lot of stuff, especially during School Hols and at Weekends. They are aged 7 and (just) 9. Alot of you have met them, you can decide how well behaved they are.

If we couldn't sometimes take them to the folk club we run, it wouldn't be viable as it would cost us £20 for a babysitter each time. We let anyone under 16 in free to any events we run, we reckon it is important to look after the future. This has not caused us any problems yet...... this is supposed to be community music....when did kids stop being part of the community?

We quite often take them to other clubs/ festivals etc where we are performing....they both have a little part in the act if they feel like joining in.... the reaction to this seems overwhelmingly positive. But again, you judge.

They usually enjoy coming along and look forward to seeing other "folky kids".

I've just asked the kids if they have a message to the old grumps who think kids should not be allowed at folky happenings.......they said they should be allowed and they'll be good! They said they'll join in if you're any good or sit quietly and read their books or play on their DS's if they're not so impressed.

Paul (using Wendy's cookies)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

This is now me and not Banjiman using my name!

Re kids...would also point out that for some parents if they are single it is nigh on impossible for them to attend occasionally if they don't bring their kids with them. I am thinking in particular of a friend in our village who has only come along a couple of times to our Folk Club events for exactly this reason. She loves folk music but is sensitive to the audience (and to her children).

As a performer one just needs to learn to sing/play without being distracted, and as an audience member one needs to remember that we have all been children! If kids don't hear folk music when young then they are unlikely to suddenly get into it as adults...think of the number of folk performers who come from a heritage of folk performance in their parents, grandparents, etc..!

It is like all things - be reasonable, sensible and tolerant.

Wendy

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM

I went to a folk event last year where there were a lot of children ranging from infants to teens. I thought that they were all very well behaved. Many of them also joined in and some of them were remarkably good singers, dancers and musicians.

I think that, in general, we all have a responsibilty to ensure that children grow up to be happy and well-balanced adults. Most of this responsibility falls on the shoulders of parents and teachers of course. As a fully licensed (childless)'old git' my reponsibility only extends as far as trying to be a bit tolerant and not seeking to exclude kids from things unnecessarily.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gedi
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Pip Radish, I came across Cockney Eric in Chorlton Folk Club in Manchester fairly recently. What a perfomer - brilliant. I think he does his own translations though from what he was saying.

The first thing I saw him do was 'The Port of Amsterdam', in English. It was the first time I had heard anything by Brel and It was really good.

Ged

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

Kids at folk clubs

I'm all for encouraging children to take an interest in the music, but the onus is on the parent(s) to ensure that the children do not cause a distraction, not only for the performer but also for the rest of the audience, who may have paid to come a listen to the performer and ten find their enjoyment lessened by a noisy child.

We were at a house concert at the weekend and one family came with three children. They were fairly well behaved, but one particular child was clearly not interested in the performance and spent a good part of the evening chattering away at the back of the L shaped room in which the performance was taking place. Kendall finds it difficult to concentrate on the music if there are outside distractions and I know that this child did irritate him somewhat. I don't know if others felt the same way and the child's mother did tell him to be quieter as he could be heard throughout the room. He did quieten down but continued to chatter for the remainder of the evening.

Now, maybe at a song circle that might be tolerable, although I do believe that, whenever someone is performing, they should be given the respect of being listened to or, if you really don't like the performance, go outside and chat. However, in a concert setting, I do feel that children should not be brought in unless they are capable of sitting quietly and listening to the performer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Mrs Banjiman
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

.......or maybe the onus should be on the performer to be capable of coping with a chattering child? It's really not that hard!

It doesn't sound like the chld was screamng or running about......

Paul (still using Wendy's cookies)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

Who was it in Hollywood who said never work with children and animals?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

The height of good manners, I was always taught, is to model them--without expecting them back in return. Therefore I urge people concerned about "folk club manners" to differentiate in their thinking between what they expect of themselves and what they hope/expect/want from others. One can only control the former; the latter you must negotiate or, I think, be showing very bad manners oneself.

Also-- the more we welcome diversity, as a society, the more we open ourselves up to different formulae for what may constitute "good" "manners."

~Susan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM

Paul - while I do welcome older children at my gigs there's no doubt that a small child - or anyone of any age who's not willing or able to give their full attention to the show - can be a problem if you aim to spellbind an audience at any point. Even a small noise at the wrong moment can completely break the mood you've worked so hard to create. I prefer to have kids at the front where I can engage them, and hopefully keep their attention, than at the back where they may not be listening and so might do something distracting at an unfortunate moment. At one village hall gig last year a small toddler made it impossible for anyone to concentrate on anything, picking the exact worst moments to cry out (just as I was trying to deliver the 'wings' line in God Speed, for example) and the gig had no tension or magic at all as a result. If the rest of the audience had asked for their money back I'd have sympathised. I had a grim night. Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM

Hey - Jim K! How yer doin'? I dropped something in your cab - did you find it? Now, I reckon you ae realy onto something there. We cound go a step further and charge massive ammounts for people who are realy crap and just want to song pop songs! I'm sure it would go down well in Japan. They probably already have a name for it...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

.......or maybe the onus should be on the performer to be capable of coping with a chattering child? It's really not that hard!

But why should other members of the audience have to be distracted by a chattering child, when they have paid to listen to the performer? If this was to happen in a theatre or cinema you can be sure that someone would want it stopped. Why should a concert be any different? A few years ago I got tickets for an open air concert by Jose Carreras and had to ask a group of people sitting near us to stop talking as I was more interested in the music than in what they were talking about. Where's the difference? If children don't understand from an early age the respect for a performer they are unlikely to change as they get older and will just take it for granted that they can spoil the enjoyment of those around them in this way.

There have been a number of times when I have wanted to listen to the music and someone has wanted to chat to me. I make it clear that I'm there for the music, but it is annoying and frustrating to be disturbed in that way.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Colin Randall
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

Never mind fractious children. When I ran clubs in basic North-eastern England pubs - Darlington, Bishop Auckland and Shildon - my problems were with adults

Darlington (The Spinning Wheel club) was pretty well behaved. Shildon was probably too small a town (though my town) to support a club at all, though we had our moments. But Bishop!

At our first venue, the Castle Hotel, the landlord complained about the state of the Ladies after our club nights. I cannot shed light on that! And guests/floor singers moaned about the noisy crowd. Tom Gilfellon called it the worst club he'd ever encountered. The bar was in the folk club room which didn't help, even though the room was big, and the landlord saw no benefit in closing it during performance.

When I saw the conditions imposed by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger for respect and order (and no bar) during their sets,   I realised I couldn't possibly have them at the club.

If only I had waited. Soon, we had a lad on the committee who was, well, a lad. V bright, v engaging but hard as nails. One night, someone started blowing at a mouth organ in the Gents - directly behind the makeshift stage - during a guest spot. Big Pete went in,
and suggested the youth be quiet. Youth gave one last, defiant blast. Pete responded quite forcefully. It is close on 40 years ago and I no longer remember whether it was a butt, and punch or a slap. But it ended with Pete telling him: "You're a good turn, but you were on too long."

I disapprove of violence, naturally. I approve of the fact that it seemed that night to work.

Colin

Salut! Live



,

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

Snail
"So you pick on the one where I agree with you? "
More than a little snide I thought - have come to expect more of you; ah well! I answered what I was able to of your points minutes before we left - that's all I had time for. Will comment on the crass idea that all you need is the will to perform when we've unpacked and had a nights sleep.

And to our resident career critic who spends most of his time correcting spelling and replacing missing punctuation (of others, of course) -
"Knockcroghery does not mean 'hill of the hangman'!"
'Irish Names of Places P W Joyce' 1902
Knockcroghery, the hangman's hill, is a village in Roscommon, where there is a station on the Midland Railway; and there are places of the same name in Cork and Mayo.
'The Anglicisised Words of Irish Placenames Tom Burnell' 2006.
Knock - Hill, Croghery - The hangman
Of course, they could both be wrong, as could the residents of the area we have spent an extremely enjoyable three days visiting - what do the Irish know about Ireland anyway!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

Re children in clubs, concerts, etc. Please note that I was talking about a toddler who was too young to understand about being quiet and why.

I brought up two children through the folk scene, but did not take them into situations where they might disturb others' enjoyment unless I was in a position to remove them pronto if they did. The one who now has children of her own does exactly the same thing in her turn. *Of course* we should encourage children to get involved, but in a way and at a time when it is appropriate to their age. That was not so in this particular case.

As to the 'watershed', my attitude was always: if they don't understand it, it doesn't matter, and if they do, it's too late anyway!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:26 PM

There's a coincidence! I'm sitting reading Ben Harker's book 'Class Act' and there's Jim Carroll on page 185 and here on the internet. If I go downstairs will he be on the TV I wonder?

Even more curiously the passage I was reading at is relevant to this thread - it's in a section about the Critics Group from the mid 60's and I quote:

"From the outset, public relations weren't the groups strongest suit. There was confusion about how one joined, and some who expected to be included felt put out when they weren't asked. The entrance criteria were also unclear. Creating better singers was always central to the group's stated remit, and yet some who passed through the group could barely carry a tune - a contradiction that inevitably raised the eyebrows of MacColl's many adversaries."

Still you can't always believe what you read in books.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

Hey I wasnt saying keep the kids out just advocating the parents are made to take their responsibilities on re keepin em in order.
Re Mr and Mrs Banjiman (The Von Trapps) case in point the children compensate for the Banjo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM

Well, I will say keep the kids out, Tim. I've had dogs who are better behaved than some of the children I've seen inflicted on what is basically an adult evening; all too aften the parents (or PARENT -because they nearly always come with a single parent) don't give a stuff what anybody else thinks.

Simon (sorry - my cookies won't let me sign in)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM

Nick:
"If I go downstairs will he be on the TV I wonder?"
Do you mean to say you missed the three Traveller programmes - tsk - tsk.
Re the Critics Group;
I'm afraid that - with the best will in the world, Ben made numerous wrong assumptions in 'Class Act' - I filled three pages of notes of them while reading it.
"There was confusion about how one joined,"
No there wasn't; people were invited to join if it was thought that the Group's work would benefit them - and vise versa. There were numerous people who felt that they should have been invited and weren't, just as a number of people who were asked declined.
It was Ewan's group and he had the final say in who should be invited. He kept the numbers down to what he believed was manageable for the method of work he was using; the fact that we met in their living room was also a consideration.
If Ben had asked any of us he interviewed we could have cleared up this 'confusion' for him.
"yet some who passed through the group could barely carry a tune"
While the group's main role was work on singing, there were a small number who didn't sing, but who took on other work, research, organisation etc. Everybody was given a chance to sing, but some non singers were valued for their abilities and enthusiasms in other directions.
The group was a private workshop not a public club so the question of reaching a standard for performing wasn't a consideration.
An honest na accurate assessment of the work of the Critics Group has yet to be carried out.
I will happily send you a transcript of the presentation on the group's work I gave at Ewan's 70th birthday symposium.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

An honest na accurate assessment of the work of the Critics Group has yet to be carried out
Why dont you post one Jim?
As a 'dabbler' in folk music I keep hearing of the Critics Group - some good, some bad.
Everyone NOT involved seem to have conflicting theories which they usually put forward to 'back up' some claim they are making at the time.
As with the songs, the 'source' needs to be tapped & recorded before its too late.
I believe Diane was involved (& possibly others on this forum) & so a true picture should emerge.
Those of us too young, too far away etc. to be actively involved need the truth.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:56 AM

Guest Simon
Thats a load of bollocks.
I have only had Mom & Dad with child at my place.
You must be unlucky.
The majority of kids are well behaved, but once again, the minority ruin it for the rest.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:04 AM

I only learned about the work of the Critics Group many years later (doing other things). I recall getting drunk with Alex Campbell at a northern folk club in the mid-60s, and he made some very disparaging remarks about McColl and the Group, which I didn't understand (he was much drunker than me). However, this article seems as good a description of the Group's work as anyone could want. I can't say the ethos appeals to me, but I can see that the intention of preserving what was perceived as tradition was a worthy one to those participating in it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Guest Samuel Wild
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 06:43 AM

Richard Bridge,has mis quoted Dick Miles.Dicks post read .Iwas gigging before Eliza[that doesnt mean I am better just different]Richard   omitted the words in brackets.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:23 AM

Black Hawk - Will,
The Critics Group was in existence for around 8 to 10 years.
It got through a great deal of work, mainly singing, but also including songwriting, instrumentation, acting, research.... and related subjects.
It was NEVER the intention of the group to "preserve what was perceived as tradition"; the main aim was to help singers develop their abilities and understanding of folksong and to create new songs using the old forms.
I have something like 250 tapes covering the work the group did and numerous others relating to Ewan's ideas. It would be extremely difficult, nigh impossible to sum up the work on this forum, though there are murmurings of putting something together in the not-to-distant future by some of us involved.
I include everybody interested in my offer of the symposium notes - they're by no means comprehensive or anything like perfect, but they're as accurate and honest an assessment as I could manage.
Ewan's feelings on the Group were summed up well in Peggy's introduction to the Ewan MacColl Song Book.
Incidentally, Alex Campbell was one of the leading members of the "near enough for folksong" school of thought; don't think he was ever asked to join the group - doubt it somehow!.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:55 AM

Jim - I'd be interested in seeing the symposium notes - if they're available online at some stage, it might be easier for you to let us know where they are than email them out.

No - Alex was definitely a "near enough" man! He was a rough diamond, as I recall. He was very much a hail-fellow-well-met chap in many ways but - and this was one of his less pleasant traits - he hated being upstaged by people he thought were better than him or more likely to steal his limelight. Particularly guitarists.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:15 AM

We probably go to about a dozen clubs around our local area. We returned to the folk scene about ten years ago having been uninvolved for a number of years due to family/work.

A lot of the people in these clubs have become personal friends, and the social aspect of going to clubs is very important to us - virtually the whole of our social life centered around music.

The level of skill of these people varies enormously, but as they are friends we do not criticise if the performance is a bit on the weak side - I think many people who go to clubs subscribe to what we used to refer to in teaching as the "hidden curriculum" , and a lot will be lost if level of skill is overemphasized.

I you are listening to a paid guest that is different of course.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

I'd be interested Jim - it's always interesting to get a view of something from more than one perspective. The Harker book is quite interesting as at least a view on those times whatever his given perspective is. I must admit to have dipped in and out of it quite a bit.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Jim Carroll

More than a little snide I thought - have come to expect more of you; ah well!

Sorry, Jim. I don't really know the correct response when apparently being called on to defend someone else's point of view that I don't share.

Will comment on the crass idea that all you need is the will to perform...

Concerned that by voicing my own opinions here I might be bringing The Lewes Arms Folk Club into disrepute, I mentioned my suggestion that the minimum standard for performing in public was the desire to do so at our committee meeting last night. The general response was "Of course. That's what it's about. That's why we do it." followed by reminiscences from everybody about how they would not have got where they were without being encouraged to stand up and give it a try.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

Wild Guest, I see you type like The Captain. But my quote ended entirely before the words you say were omitted. That's what quotes do. They begin where they begin, and they end where they end.