BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:28 PM

Here is some more info on Papa Keene, from a Crossfire/CNN webpage where he interviewed John Ashcroft:

Currently chairman of the American Conservative Union, David A. Keene began his involvement in presidential politics in 1968 when he served as political assistant to Vice President Spiro Agnew. He went on to serve in the campaigns of Ronald Reagan, George Bush and Bob Dole. Keene also serves as president of the Washington, D.C.-based political consulting firm of Keene/Halper Associates and as a lobbyist for The Carmen Group, in addition to publishing his own political newsletter, "The Keene Report."

And if it is God & guns you are seeking, you can read more about Daddy Boy through the Seek God website (a Christian Top 1000 website!) which gives fairly detailed bios of The Council for National Policy: (Daddy Keene is down the page a ways):

http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.ijk.htm

And from the ACU website itself, here is what Our Fearless Leader has to say about the Daddy Boy:

"I'm grateful to David Keene and the members of the ACU from coast-to-coast for all of their help this year. The ACU has been an invaluable partner in advancing our compassionate, conservative agenda." – President George W. Bush (ACU's website)"

I found that quote at the People for the American Way website.

And from Chuck Muth's gopnewsandviews website, we have this information on Baby Boy David M.:

"For historians of key votes, the American Conservative Union's new website is a dream come true," reports Michael Gerber in this week's The Hill column. "The conservative group's new site, launched this week at www.conservative.org, includes a database of congressional ratings that goes back more than three decades, as well as up-to-the-minute headlines" provided by CNSNews. The new look and feel was crafted by ACU's in-house webmaster, David M. Keene, with the expert assistance of the fine folks at Hockaday/Donatelli Campaign Solutions."

Gee, I can't IMAGINE how or why this story is being hushed up! All those Good Christian Republicans and Their Children Who Hold All Power in Washington and Fairfax couldn't have had anything to do with it, could they?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM

SharonA - yah, I'd say that Daddy Keene sitteth at the right hand of The Godfather in the White House, whose clout doth reacheth all the way to the US Park Service in God's Country (known to the paeans as Fairfax County).

Like I said, when the DC shooter is the son of one of THOSE good ole boys, that daddy's name ain't gonna be mentioned on the Fair and Balanced O'Reilly Factor.

Subject: BS: Calling all Conservative Catters...
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:54 PM

Well, it seems that the right wing media isn't so fair and balanced after all. This Washington Post story (conveniently buried on the crime report page) is about the son of the American Conservative Union's Chairman David A. Keene shooting another driver in Fairfax County, has obviously been censored by the mainstream media.

CRIME & JUSTICE

Friday, December 6, 2002; Page B02

VIRGINIA

---

Article deleted - same as above (click)
-Joe Offer-

---

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Now, where are is all the conservative outrage on this one? Here is a cover-up that actually put someone's life in mortal danger, so where all you gun lovin' compassionate conservatives standing on this one? Is it JUST FINE for the story of this boy's alleged attempted murder to get buried, just because of his daddy's connections?

C'mon all you Republicans and libertarian conservatives...let's see what you have to say about this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:56 PM

Sharon -- news report linking David M. to David A. here:
http://www.nbc4.com/news/1822195/detail.html

Subject: RE: BS: Calling all Conservative Catters...
From: GUEST,Dittohead
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 01:59 PM

"Calling All Conservative Catters?"

You mean both of us?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM

Thanks very much, Nicole! Strange... I had visited the NBC4 website and searched for the keyword "Keene", but I did not get any hits at all about the shooting.

Okay, well, so much for the David A squelching theory. Good; I'm glad to see that the guy doesn't have that much influence!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM

This is from the local NBC affiliate, NBC4, website:

http://www.nbc4.com/news/1822195/detail.html

Suspected Parkway Shooter Arrested
Suspect Is Son Of Gun Rights Activist

POSTED: 3:35 p.m. EST December 5, 2002
UPDATED: 3:40 p.m. EST December 5, 2002

WASHINGTON -- News4 has learned the son of a gun activist was arrested Wednesday night and charged with an apparent road rage shooting on the George Washington Parkway.

Police believe David Michael Keene, 21, shot a gun from a BMW on Sunday afternoon. The bullet shattered the window of a Mercedes Benz and became lodged in the driver's seat, just inches from the driver's head.

Police believe Keene and the driver of the Mercedes were involved in a road rage incident along the George Washington Parkway just before the shooting happened. The driver of the Mercedes managed to get the license plate number of the BMW and report it to police.

Keene appeared in an Alexandria, Va., court Thursday afternoon. He was charged with use of a firearm during a crime of violence. A conviction carries a mandatory sentence of at least 10 years behind bars.

News4 has learned Keene is the son of David A. Keene, who is on the board of directors for the National Rifle Association. Keene is also a conservative political consultant and lobbyist who has worked in the White House and in Congress.

* * * * * * *

The website also has links to these stories about the "incident".

http://www.nbc4.com/news/1814635/detail.html

Police: Bullet Misses Driver's Head By Inches
Road Rage Incident Has Police Asking For Help

POSTED: 1:29 p.m. EST December 2, 2002
UPDATED: 8:28 p.m. EST December 2, 2002

WASHINGTON -- Police said an angry motorist fired a gun at another car on the George Washington Parkway, and the bullet hit the driver's seat, just missing the driver's head by inches. The driver was not hurt.

Scott Fear of the U.S. Park Police said the altercation involved a blue Mercedes Benz and a gray BMW. The two cars were driving nourthbound near the Route 123 exit when the incident happened around 2 p.m. Sunday.

Fear said, "The two went back and forth a little bit. One driver got upset, and the way we understand it is, he shot through the rear windshield of this [the blue Mercedes] vehicle, and the bullet struck the driver's seat."

Now police want to talk to the driver of the BMW and to anyone who was traveling in the area between 1:45 and 2:15 p.m. Sunday. The BMW had four doors and a Maryland registration and police believe it may have been a 3-series model. Fear said a white man was driving and a white woman was in the passenger seat.

Police ask anyone with information about the incident to call [phone].

The parkway was closed for northbound for about an hour on Sunday while police investigated the incident.

* * * * * * *

http://www.nbc4.com/news/1817696/detail.html

Police Find Car Suspected In Parkway Shooting
Police Expect Arrest Soon

POSTED: 4:51 p.m. EST December 3, 2002
UPDATED: 6:14 a.m. EST December 4, 2002

WASHINGTON -- Police have found the BMW that they believe was involved in a road rage shooting Sunday afternoon on the George Washington Parkway.

A man was driving a Mercedes on the parkway between Key Bridge and Chain Bridge and slammed on his brakes when a BMW passed him.

Police said the Mercedes then passed the BMW, and the driver of the BMW fired a shot into the rear window of the Mercedes.

The bullet hit the driver's seat.

No one was injured.

Police found the BMW on Tuesday. Officers expect to find the driver soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:26 PM

SharonA, you can't be serious? You don't think this story is being censored?

COME ON!!!

In the wake of the DC sniper shootings, northbound George Washington Parkway in Fairfax County is closed for ONE HOUR AFTER A MOTORIST IN A MERCEDES BENZ IS SHOT AT ON DECEMBER 2, and we don't hear SQUAT ABOUT IT UNTIL DECEMBER 5, and only then through LOCAL MEDIA?

Give me a break. The cops had Baby Keene's name the minute they had the license plate number with the car registration--which would have been almost IMMEDIATELY, and this story is only floating to the surface in LOCAL DC MEDIA THREE DAYS LATER?

Hooeeeey! Your idea of censored story and mine are obviously pretty different. David A. Keene worked in the NIXON WHITE HOUSE! He worked on the election campaigns of Reagan, Bush I, and Dole!

Next thing people will be claiming the story isn't "newsworthy".

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:30 PM

Also, I'd like to suggest that Mudcat elves allow a new thread to open up on this story. The big news here isn't that this guy has connections to the NRA. The big news is, this shooter has connections all the way to the fucking White House. How about we split the difference, and rename the thread to more accurately portray the way this story is evolving, or the special someone who closed the "Calling all Conservative Catters" thread gives us some information on how they are going to deal with the changing nature of the story with these threads?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: NicoleC
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:43 PM

I'm glad those threads were closed -- we don't need several threads to discuss the same thing. Discussions evolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:58 PM

Oh for Christ sake. We can have 800 thousand "What did the _____ ever do for us" threads, but Mudcat can't tolerate more than one thread on this topic?

How many threads did we have on the DC snipers?

Seems to me the Mudcat censors are going WAY beyond normal thread consolidation here.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 02:59 PM

Oh I forgot. Mudcat censors don't allow certain guests to post BS threads with controversial political content.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM

Mudcat censorship aside, I take your point about media censorship, GUEST. What I meant was that I'm glad to see that the link between David M and David A wasn't kept completely out of the press as I had mistakenly thought it was.

I don't agree that the story should have made major national headlines simply because it happened in the wake of the DC sniper shootings. This was clearly a road-rage incident. Judging from the NBC article, the guy in the Mercedes was not the sort of innocent bystander who was shot by the sniper; rather, he appears to have been the instigator of the road-rage game (that's still no excuse to shoot at him, though!).

Frankly, I'm not sure that the story merits national attention. Okay, the guy's son turns out to be an asshole. Does that mean that the guy himself has to be dragged through the mud for it all over the country? As has been pointed out here, David M is legally an adult, so he is responsible for his own actions and he will pay the consequences. He could have had a long and illustrious career following in his father's footsteps, but he blew it all for one moment's satisfaction of feeling a gun go off in his hand, just because he got pissed off at somebody for playing highway leapfrog.

All the same, I'm sure there are plenty of people who will keep a close eye on David M's future actions and career moves to ensure that his daddy doesn't make this crime go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Ed.
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:06 PM

A view from across the pond.

As a European, I'm constantly amazed at the depth of feeling on this issue. Obviously, I don't have the same cultural upbringing, but I still have to shake my head in disbelief.

Yes, statistics can be misused, but there's overwelming evidence that societies with more guns have higher murder/suicide rates.

The 'guns don't kill, people do' is clearly absurd. To extrapolate that, why inspect Iraqs 'weapons of mass destruction'? After all, they can't kill anyone by themselves...

Glad that I live in Europe.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Raptor
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:08 PM

Everyone CALM DOWN!

         PUT YOUR MOUSE DOWN!

         STEP A_WAY FROM YOUR KEYBOARD!

         DON"T MAKE ANY SUDDEN MOVEMENTS>

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:09 PM

P.S. – If anyone disagrees with me and feels that the story does merit national attention, I would advise contacting the national media (TV networks, newspapers, news services, etc.) through their websites and urging them to give the story the attention you think it deserves, instead of simply complaining on this obscure site about what they're not reporting.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:14 PM

Well SharonA, first I would say that the son of a Washington power broker and media pundit of Papa Keene's magnitude shooting at other drivers from his BMW on the George Washington Parkway on a Sunday afternoon on Thanksgiving weekend is PLENTY newsworthy for the national media to pick up.

The more I research this story online, the more I see how much this story is being censored even in the local DC media. The ABC affiliate still hasn't reported who the shooter was, or followed up the story at all, despite the fact that he was arraigned in the Alexandria courthouse yesterday. It isn't like there aren't any national media people in the area, after all.

Now, I am trying to imagine the same scenario happening where I live, where every road rage accident is MAJOR local news here. If this story had been local to where I live, it would have been on the local news every single night this week. First the report of the shooting on Sunday. Follow up stories, and the request for information about the occupants of the shooters car on Monday. Story about the car being found on Tuesday. Story about the arrest of the suspected shooter on Wednesday. Arraignment of suspected shooter, and the information released that he is the son of one of the most prominent political pundits with connections to the White House.

This would be a HUGE local news story here.

For this to not even get a passing mention on ANY national media website is chilling.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 03:27 PM

GUEST: Remember that it took a few DC sniper shootings before the story received national attention? The shootings that occurred in September weren't linked to the snipers' spree for quite some time. This is DC we're talking about, where a lot of crime happens and a lot of it is perpetrated by people who are linked in one way or another to politics. Using that perspective, one idiot's road-rage shooting is small potatoes.

But, again, if you disagree, write to the media and complain. Why not start with ABC: http://abcnews.go.com/service/help/abccontact.html

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: DougR
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM

Bobert: I think your title for this thread is a pretty far stretch. It would be a bit like you're doing something wrong (hard to imagine I know) and the headline in the paper reading, "Bobert does something wrong and he's linked to the Baptist Church!" Assuming you are a Baptist, of course.

Being a member of an organization does not necessarily link you to it. You're just a member.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 04:52 PM

DougR, I agree. The fact of this story is that the alleged shooter works for the American Conservative Union, which is chaired by his father, a former White House and Senate aide, and now one of the most influential conservative Washington lobbyists, who often appears as a conservative political commentator on many news and talk shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 05:44 PM

Troll:

RE Harvard. There is no such thing as politically correct science. If it at all comprehends political correctness in it's results, it ain't science. Science must withstand peer review and reproduction regardless of the investigators' (or reviewers', reproducers') politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:06 PM

Well, Dougie, my friend, I'm real sorry that you didn't like the thread title. Ahhhh, I didn't realize that it was gonna get so much attention or I certainly would have *considered* running it by you first. (HEY, I didn't say I'd actually do that only that I would *consdier* doing it...)

So, what I want to know is why it took from Sunday night until yesterday, some four days later, for this kid to get arrested? I mean like Nixon had the 18 minutes of missing taped conversation but 4 days when they had the tag number?

See, if one of Bill Clinton's buddies had this little *4 day lapse* then it would have cost the American taxpayers about $40M of Ken Starr investigations. I hope this is not lost on those of you have been all to quick to call Clinton *puss bags* and worse. Like this kid attempted to murder someone and had he aimed a few inches to the roght wouls have accomplished his intent and then you have a tumbling Mercedes looking for other innocent victims.

Well, Boss Hog has had four days to work on their damage control and get their PR up to speed, but this is definately a bad deal going down...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:12 PM

(quote)
"Being a member of an organization does not necessarily link you to it. You're just a member....."
DougR.

Sorry Doug R, but it just that simple.
The father of the miscreant shooter of a son that he had raised
with the usual "conservative values" was not "just a member" ,but a prominant board member and not just anyone can ascend to the board of the arch-conservative N.R.A.

I find it odd that you don't see the obvious failure of "leading by example" principal.
First that the father "is" responsible for the sons they let loose on the rest of society and the proof will be who pays the lawyer fees ,whom pulls the political connections to get a favorable judge ,and whom can keep it out of the media coverage.
I doubt this 21 year old rich white trash can pull this out of the fire all on his own. Keene Sr. will want "his reputation" protected.

No way around it. This incident is a genuine black eye to the so-called "gun safety advocacy" that the NRA promotes.
Maybe it would make the news if someone shot the NRA's Eddie Eagle ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:35 PM

So, if he had not had a gun in his car, he would not have fired it at the guy in the Mercedes. Ok, that;'s a no brainer. But, it doesn't address the REAL problem. ATTITUDE! Every police officer, game warden, corrections officer etc. carries a gun in a vehicle; Why don't THEY get involved in road rage? Because they know better! It starts in your head..not in your hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 07:44 PM

Kendall:

Ahhhh, sometimes the cops do get a tad carried away. Though the Prince George's, MD, police department is well know for shooting first and asking questions later there is a case where one of the undercover guys mistakenly tailed a guy into Virgina, cornered him with his car around 2:00 in the morning and shot the man dead in his car. Opps, wrong guy? Sorry...

I agree with you though that it is very much about ATTITUDE and this kid, according to news reporst this evening, has a healthy attitude problem...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 08:40 PM

Stupid young men do vicious and irresponsible things in all countries, including the sons of powerful people; and the powerful people pull strings to cover it up.

That's not surprising. The surprising thing is when normally honourable people appear willing to condone that kind of thing when it's someone whose politics they share, while they'd never do that, if it was someone whose politics they didn't share. Regardless of the colour of the politics involved (and it could be any colour - Red, Blue, Orange, Green...), that's just not right.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 09:29 PM

I'm with you, McGrath. Now I'm not much of a Clinton fan myself, you know being of Green persuasion an all, but GWB has gotten a complete PASS from the media, the Dems and American people.

Had this occured in the middle of *PICK-A-GATE* during which Clinton was attacked by the wealthy side of the right wing if he forgot to use his hair conditioner. Fast forward to this and...well... nothing! Zip!

Hey, I'm not sayin' that Bush even knows this kid 'cause he probably doesn't but that's not the point I'm making. Why the *PASS*? Where are you who howled every time the Clinton burped for "impeachment" tonight? Hey, I think that's a fair question.

Doug? Troll? Teribus? Pick-a-GUEST?

And like I've said, it will be an interseting trial...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Troll
Date: 06 Dec 02 - 11:22 PM

TIA, I don't believe I used the word "science" anywhere in my post on Harvard. Statistics can be and are manupulated every day to "prove" any number of things. To quote I believe it was Mark Twain; "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
To rephrase my earlier statement, I tend to take anything that comes out of Harvard (among others) with a grain of salt.

troll

PS, That's "troll" with a lower case "t" if you don't mind.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 07:09 AM

Figures don't lie. Liars figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 07:16 AM

I haven't read this thread and I don't intend to. They're all the same. However, I just read a note received by a webmaster at another site I visit and thought, gee, I wonder if this could lead to a case of road rage.....

I went to the store the other day, and I was in there for only about 5 minutes. When I came out there was a damn motorcycle cop writing a parking ticket. So I went up to him and said, "Come on, buddy, how about giving a girl a break?"
He ignored me and continued writing the ticket. So I called him a pencil-necked Nazi. He glared at me and started writing another ticket for having worn tires! So I called him a piece of horse shit. He finished the second ticket and put it on the windshield with the first. Then he started writing a third ticket! This went on for about 20 minutes.
The more I abused him, the more tickets he wrote.
I didn't care. My car was parked around the corner.
I try to have a little fun each day. It's important.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 09:52 AM

Isn't it obvious this boy is going to get off with a slap on the wrist? First, the judges will all be in Republican pockets in the jurisdiction he was arraigned in--Alexandria. Second, if the cops didn't get around to arresting him until four days after the incident, don't you think it just might have been to give everyone time to prearrange the outcome?

Bobert, since there is no news about this, but you seem to be privy to some local tv coverage, could you keep us updated? I have contacted the major TV network news departments to provide information from the NBC4 station, and ask why their network news divisions aren't covering the story (I contacted ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN & Fox). I haven't heard a peep from a single one of them.

I am interested to know if any charges have been filed against the passenger in Keene's car for not coming forward with information on the shooting? And also Bobert, if you know the date of the next court date? I'm curious to hear about the "attitude" problem you mentioned. And I'm also wondering if the other driver has appeared in the local media to tell his side of the story?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: kendall
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 12:39 PM

Bobert, we are talking about road rage here, not chicken shit cops doing their duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 02:04 PM

You know, if this incident had happened anywhere else but in a car, what crime would the alleged shooter be accused of? Well, it always depends on the circumstances and what the DA's office believes it can prove. This was, at the least, an assault with a deadly weapon, possibly attempted murder.

I think people's responses to this shows a desensitized view of this act of violence. How would any of us like it if, while driving down the freeway on a Sunday afternoon, someone pulled out a gun and shot out our back window, with the bullet lodging in our seat, inches away from our head? Would we be so dismissive of the violence, as many here seem to be in this case, if it had happened to us, or one of our loved ones or friends or work colleagues? There is a difference between "aggressive driving" which constitutes dangerous driving tactics which are traffic offenses, and "road rage" which constitutes criminal behavior with vehicles, and in this instance, a loaded gun. This is the most serious crime we see on the nation's roads--when someone uses either their car, a gun, or both, to commit an act of violence against another driver.

The other aspect of this story I would like to discuss in a separate thread, which apparently the Mudcat censors won't allow us to do, is not the gun control/NRA aspect of this story, but the facts surrounding who the alleged shooter is, and the whys and wherefores of this story being censored by the national media. The latter facts are much more interesting to me, and I would hope, to people concerned with the ways such stories typically get buried by the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 05:28 PM

Here are some fun mental excercises...
What would be the reaction of, oh for instance Limbaugh et. al if
1) the son of a prominent PETA member was photographed wearing a mink
2) the son of a prominent gay rights activist was arrested for exposing himself to a child
3) the son a labor organizer was found to be running an overseas sweat shop
4) the son of a prominent environmentalist killed a dolphin with his jet ski
5) the daughter of a prominent feminist joined a beauty pageant....
You get the idea.
The braying would be deafening! The big Mr. L would never say "the son/daughter is a grown-up and responsible for their own actions". Uh-uh, the line would definitely be "see what hypocrites these people are".



(By the way troll --sorry about the previous capitalization--, bad statistics are lies, but they never survive peer review and replication. And you're right, you did not use the word science, but statistics are used to make conclusions scientific).

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 06:08 PM

Kendall: Sorry, pal. The brain fades on this poor ol' hillbilly at times fir no apparent reason other than the 60's and I get myself sidetracked.

GUEST: Yeah, I'll keep an eye or two on this one. What I heard last nigh on Channel 4 was a report from the kid's girlfriend and she stated, according to the report, that Keene Junior had a bad temper.

The Washington Post is avoiding this story as if it were a radiation pit. Hmmmmmm?

I didn't catch the name of the attorney that Keene's father has hired but the report mentioned that Monika Lewinski is a former client...

And the beat goes on...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 07:19 PM

Here are some fun mental excercises...
What would be the reaction of, oh for instance Limbaugh et. al if
1) the son of a prominent PETA member was photographed wearing a mink
2) the son of a prominent gay rights activist was arrested for exposing himself to a child
3) the son a labor organizer was found to be running an overseas sweat shop
4) the son of a prominent environmentalist killed a dolphin with his jet ski
5) the daughter of a prominent feminist joined a beauty pageant....
You get the idea.
The braying would be deafening! The big Mr. L would never say "the son/daughter is a grown-up and responsible for their own actions". Uh-uh, the line would definitely be "see what hypocrites these people are"

Yes, but...the opposite side of that point is that all the knee-jerk liberals on the mudcat would then start saying "the son/daughter is a grown-up and responsible for their own actions". Whereas the initial point of this thread seems to be that the action of this kid somehow invalidates the NRA. If I understand correctly.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 08:26 PM

Yeah, Peter, that's about it!

No, but really, the NRA invalidated itself a long time ago when it was taken over by a right wing that is more concerned with marketing as many guns and bullets than gun safety. Their choice! Hey, don't belive me. There has been much written over the last 20 years about folks leaving the NRA over their altra conservative politics while others joining fir the same reasons.

They don't give a danged *WHO* owns a gun as long as they own one, or two... or forty three.

And this is from a gunowner and former NRA member...

So, yeah, Peter, you got it right...

Heck, the NRA folk ganged up on Bill Clinton every time he sneezed without covering his mouth so the "Blueprint* has been firmly clizzeled in stone by the right wingers so if now they want to cry like crybabies... tough. What goes around comes around. A little old fashion Karma. And there's more comin'.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 08:32 PM

Is it true that the kid was an active member of the AAA? "BMWs don't kill people..."

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 07 Dec 02 - 10:13 PM

Peter...you're right of course. Let's use this as a hypocrisy test. If all knee-jerk liberals agree not to judge the hypothetical prominent spokesperson based on the actions of a somehow-associated adult, will the knee-jerk conservatives agree to do the same? And please don't tell me the conservatives haven't, because the record is hugely out there. No sarcasm here -- you really are correst.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 02 - 07:49 PM

Well, of course they won't, TIA. The right wing thinks it owns all rights to hypocrisy, and ya' know what, I'm believin' that they ain't too far wrong on that issue.

Meanwhile, the "media" around these parts ain't touchin' anything about this story. Nothing at all in the "liberal" (Hahahah, don't make me puke...) Washington Post. Nothing more on Channel 4 news. Nothing. Nothing and more nuthing!!!!

And who says that the NRA isn't the most powerfull lobby in America?

Well, it is kind of hard arguing with a lot of deranged gun nuts, who own lots of guns and make no bones about how they feel about anyone who doesn;t agree with them. Talk about democracy's head being on the chopping block! Whew...

And how are ya' gonna get any ibnfo on this case with the Bush administration ignoring the Freedom of Information Act. You won't get squat from this government unless they want to give it to you. Forget the law. This is not your grandfather's America...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 06:52 PM

Well, today, David Keene, Jr, who has been incarcerated since his arrest was denied bond.

His mother who was interviewed outside the courthouse said the shooting was "an accident" and blamed it on Keene's girlfriend who she said grabbed Keene's arm as he was getting ready to shoot.

The mother also said that he son suffers from an "impulse disorder" and was hospitalized 7 times for the disorder between the age ot 7 and 13.

Hmmmmmmm? How did a kid with mental problems happen to get in possession of not only a handgun but also a late modle BMW to tool around in....

OPne thing you can say, though, is that as part of the "damage control" sessions within the White House, conventional wisdom decided that the kid was going to have to take the lumps he deserves.

But so far the media attention is almost nil...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Come 'n get 'em in Texas
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:28 PM

Give up your guns. It's what Stalin, Hitler and Mao insisted on. Give up your guns and see how much freedom the mass-murdering Bush Company allows you to have. Won't be anymore downtime on the internet when you're doing ditch-work on the business end of a U.N. automatic. And as for your little forum here, that'll go away with the Bill or Rights. Grow up. Guns are the only thing that keep America free.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:39 PM

Whew, GUEST, come-n-get-em-in Texas. You on drugs? Thought so! Where do you read that anyone wants to take away your guns, unless you have already proven to be a re-rainged nutball. Hey, why don't we let little kids play with loaded guns? Ahhhhh, maybe 'cause it's stupid. What's the difference with a slightly older kid who has been hospitalized 7 times for "impusive disorders"?

Let me ask you, GUEST, blah-blah-blah. Lets say that you live in an apartment building and the guy who lives accross the hall is real beligerant and doesn't like you 'cause he heard that you like folk music. Okay, now you find out that he has been hospitalized 7 times in the last 14 years for "impulsive disorders' during which he has shown behaviors that are a mix of uncontrolable temper tantrums, paranoia, and threatening behavior. You want this guy to have a gun? I don't!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:43 PM

"Guns are the only thing that keep America free."

Sometimes I'm glad we've got the Atlantic ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 10:28 PM

That guy can't legally own a gun. Lock him up if he has one.

England is now a slave society. Their violent crime rate has exploded exponentially since they were disarmed. An armed and responsible citizenry is the only effective preventative against crime. When concealed handgun permits were issued a few years ago in Texas, the crime of carjacking all but disappeared...you never know who might have a gun.

The U.S. government gave smallpox infected blankets to American Indians to mass-murder. The U.S. government held the interceptor jets on the ground Sept. 11 so the hijackers could reach their targets. Now the U.S. House has passed the most draconian gun bill in the history of our country. GWBush has promised to sign it when the Senate passes it. So, are you folks going to trust this government to treat you fairly once you are disarmed? This government of murderers?

You deserve slaughter if you give up the right (the Constitution calls it a RIGHT, by the way), you deserve slaughter if you give up your ability to defend your families. Without the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms, the rest of the Constitution is meaningless. Right-wing Corporate fascism is now merging with left-wing Marxism to create the grandaddy of all tyrannical societies. Buy guns. Buy guns now. Buy as much ammo as you can afford, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 10:35 PM

I was just doing a public-domain search, by the way, and I was surprised to see this discussion. Old Joe Clark...public domain or not? I won't shoot anyone who gives me an answer I don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:20 AM

Texas,

Since you appear to live in Texas, not England, can I suggest you shut up about England? England is not a "slave society", nor is the "violent crime rate has exploded exponentially since they were disarmed" true, not least since we were never "armed" in the first place.

I assume you're referring to the gun laws passed in the wake of the Dunblane massacre. Curiously enough, since then we *haven't* had a succession of Columbine's et al...

Violent crime has risen because it's risen. A more restrictive (& probably unnecessary, TBH) gun law that took weapons away from a very small minority of the population had nothing to do with it. In my *personal* opinion (gut feeling, no statistics) the rise in violence has more to do with a combination of the increasing Americanisation of British culture, & the increasing selfishness within it (please note - I'm not implying a direct link between those two!) from the late 70's onwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:04 AM

Yo, GUEST, you're doing that "GUEST thing" again with your assumptive attitude. If I say that a civilized nation has the right to not allow bad people from owning guns, you say I want to take the guns away from everyone. Untrue. It ain't too difficult to set up some purdy universally accepted behavioral guidelines for coming up with a list of folks you don't want to be part of that armed majority that I agree makes Boss Hog a tad nervous when he thinks of declaring martial law.

Hey, I'm not defending Tom Ridge at all here. Or John Poindexter, or John Ashcroft or any of the bums who have temporarilly stolen democracy. This is an issue of safety.

And this isn's pre-emtive either GUEST because some folks have *demonstated* their nature's over and over (like 7 hospitaliztions for uncontrolled temper tantrums over an 11 year period) that society is safer without these folks having guns. I don't believe anyone is talking "outlawing guns". I'm certainly not.

Bobert

p.s. I hardly recognized you with that cowboy hat, GUEST...

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: GUEST,in Texas
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:32 AM

Being Irish-American, I have mixed feelings about the English. The English murdered my ancestors. They also gave the world the central banking system and it's been all downhill since. The Queen and her whole family should be sold into one of the prostitution conglomerates they finance. The Bush Company with it's cocaine cartel and armaments manufacturing is trying to set itself up as the new royalty here, but it won't happen. 400 million guns and we know how to use them. The English need to get their guns back. Don't blame America because England has lost it's testicles. Your own government just admitted it's been behind most of the bombings in Britain over the past 20 years. After blaming those 'dirty Irish' for so long...now you wimps don't even have the guts to spike the heads of the scum who maunufactured the crises to take away your rights. You can't even call the Queen a prostititute in England, can you? Jailable offense. Tony Blair announce your Magna Carta is no longer needed...I mean, what has HAPPENED to you people? Cameras everywhere watching you, being forced into the European Union, can't speak your mind on a streetcorner. The same might happen here, but at least our govenment will have to nuke us to get it done.

Listen to this radio program. The absolute voice of truth about what is happening in the world today. You can click on one of the 'listen' links and get streaming audio.

http://www.infowars.com

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Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter Linked to NRA
From: TIA
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:50 AM

Yo, Texas - try the decaf.