BS: Israel condemned by UN

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:06 AM

I did not say that AIPAC were Israelis, chump. They are Americans, operating in America in order to skew American foreign policy in the middle east (and not just in favour of Israel: they have plenty to say currently about Iran, for example) I said that, de facto, they are agents of the Israeli regime. I have said absolutely nothing that a reasonable person could interpret as meaning that AIPAC are Israelis. All this is readily discernible even from reading AIPAC's website where they are perfectly open about their aims. I also informed you that AIPAC is not exclusively Jewish. You appear to think that repeating stupid remarks will make them less stupid.

http://forward.com/articles/153025/aipac-not-just-for-jews-anymore/?p=all

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM

We have to trawl the internet to find out details of Israel's actions.
So you both think that British media is prevented from telling the truth about Israel.
By some secretive cabal, presumably.

Steve if you believe all that stuff you just posted about Israel is true, it is you who have been hoodwinked, by all the nasty propaganda on those sites like Jim's that you believe tell the truth.

700.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 11:05 AM

"There is no evidence that IDF knew what was to happen."
This is a blatant lie -there have been presented dozens of links on this thread of evidence containing reports not only of the Israelis knowing whet would happen, but of the authorities planning in advance the slaughter.
Have just finished a remarkable book (free download) entitled SABRA
& CHATILA - INQUIRY INTO A MASSACRE by Amnon Kapeliouk (a Jerusalem resident and a journalist for Le Monde, among other publications.
It has been obvious from the beginning of this discussion that all our resident fanatic wants is a blanket acceptance that "Israel didn't do it"
He continues to offer no evidence, but just unlinked denials of Israel's proven guilt
Jim Carroll   

Amnon Kapeliouk was born in Jerusalem. His father, Menachem, was a renowned Arabic scholar. Kapeliouk studied at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He held a PhD degree in Oriental Studies from Sorbonne University. His doctorate was on Israel's Christian Arab community. He began writing for the Israeli daily Al HaMishmar in the 1950s" and was a Journalist for Le Monde
He was a resident of Jerusalem until his death.
Quotes from his remarkable book entitled SABRA & CHATILA, INQUIRY INTO A MASSACRE by Amnon Kapeliouk, by far the most comprehensive account of the massacre.



Lieutenant Avi Grabowski, deputy commander of a tank company testified before the Kahan Commission that he witnessed the Phalangists kill civilians including women and children. Grabowski told the Commission that he confronted a Phalangist about killing pregnant women. The Phalangist answered that "pregnant women will give birth to terrorists." Israeli soldiers who reported Phalangist atrocities against civilians to their superiors were ordered not to interfere with what was happening in the camps and not to enter the area. When Grabowski reported what he saw to his superiors, his tank crew quoted the battalion commander saying: "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere." (Final Report, p. 35).

"Access to the camp was blocked by Israeli soldiers, who repeatedly ordered fleeing refugees to turn back. The most striking example was a group of 500 refugees who found shelter within the walls of Gaza Hospital in Sabra. During the afternoon, the crowd made their escape when they learned that the militiamen were killing, injuring, and raping everyone in the hospitals. Brandishing white flags, the hapless crowd reached Corniche el-Mazra'a, the road that intersects the capital from east to west. They were then stopped by Israeli soldiers. A spokesman for the group explained to the soldiers that Sa'ad Haddad's men were murdering civilians. Nevertheless, they were ordered to return to the camp. When they hesitated, an Israeli tank chased the people a few hundred feet back toward the camps." (New York Times, September 26, 1982)."

"At daybreak, Israeli officers and soldiers stood at their observation post and watched with binoculars what was happening inside the Shatila camp. They observed the piles of bodies and the men being lined up for execution. Soldiers from an armored unit stationed 100 meters from the camp, and once commanded by Colonel Eli Geva prior to his resignation, stated that they were able to clearly witness the execution of civilians by the militiamen that Friday morning. Their report was dispatched to senior officers who received identical accounts from other Israeli soldiers and officers stationed near the camps. Israeli soldiers also confirmed that they heard screaming refugees being slaughtered while attempting to save their own lives. The Israelis were also briefed by the Phalangists themselves, who occasionally sought food and fresh water from the encampments and roadblocks set up by the Israeli Army around Shatila. They described "combat" developments inside the camps, making no attempt to conceal the fact "that there were also civilians among the dead."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 12:33 PM

So you both think that British media is prevented from telling the truth about Israel.

The media owned by ardently pro-Israel Murdoch requires no pressure at all to support Israel. There is evidence that an arrogant UK Israel lobby group, BICOM, has improperly influenced the output Of BBC news and Sky News. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/209412.html This stuff is all over the web, Keith. Let's not forget that all three main parties have powerful Friends Of Israel groups of MPs under their wing. No-one is saying that the situation here is a bad as it is in the US. But there is undeniable (though I know you'd deny that red is red) pressure put on our media nonetheless. Try this:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text

From the above:

However, many people just don't want to speak out about the Israel lobby. So making our film at times felt like an impossible task. Privately we would be met with great enthusiasm and support. Everyone had a story to tell, it seemed. Once the subject of doing an interview was raised the tone changed; "Anything at all I can do to help…" quickly became "Well, obviously I couldn't." or "It wouldn't be appropriate for me to."
Many people who privately voiced concerns about the influence of the lobby simply felt they had too much to lose by confronting it. One national newspaper editor told us, "that's one lobby I've never dared to take on." From MPs, to senior BBC journalists and representatives of Britain's largest charities, the pattern became depressingly familiar. Material would come flooding out on the phone or in a meeting, but then days later an email would arrive to say that they would not be able to take part. Either after consultation with colleagues or consideration of the potential consequences, people pulled out.

Some had more reason than others. Jonathan Dimbleby had boldly expressed criticism in a powerfully argued article for Index on Censorship of the pressure from pro-Israel groups on the BBC, which led to the BBC Trust's report on Jeremy Bowen, and had initially been keen to be involved. Suddenly his interest evaporated. There simply wasn't the time, he said. At first we felt baffled and let down. But in due course we discovered that his comments had brought a complaint from the very same lawyer, Jonathan Turner of the Zionist Federation, that had complained about Jeremy Bowen. Dimbleby is now going through the exact same complaints process that he criticized. Turner is arguing that Dimbleby's comments make him unfit to host the BBC's Any Questions. The Dimbleby experience serves as a cautionary tale for anyone approaching this subject. Others, such as Sir John Tusa, who had opposed the BBC's refusal to broadcast the Disasters Emergency Committee Gaza appeal, were overcome with modesty, feeling that they simply didn't have the expertise to tackle the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:40 PM

Steve and Don, you do not find the truth by "trawling the internet," you find whatever you want to find.
It is absurd to imagine that BBC, Guardian, Independent, Ch.4 news, etc., etc., are keeping "the truth" about Israel secret because of sinister and secret global organisations.
You are not deprived of the truth by our media, and you do not find it by trawling the net.

Jim, does anything in Grabowski's testimony suggest that he or those around him were expecting atrocities to be committed?
No. It is convincing evidence that IDF was neither expecting nor prepared for it.

His testimony to the enquiry exposed serious errors of judgement and probably of conduct by his immediate (low level)superiors.

From the Kahan Commission Report.
Late in the afternoon (Friday 17th.)he related what he had seen to his commander in the tank battalion and to other officers. At their suggestion he related this to his brigade commander at 20:00 hours (Grabowsky testimony, pp. 380-388). In various statements made to the staff investigators, soldiers and officers from Lieutenant Grabowsky's unit and from other units stationed nearby related that they saw on Friday various acts of maltreatment by the Phalangist soldiers against men, women and children who were taken out of the camp, and heard complaints and stories regarding acts of killing carried out by the Phalangists. One of those questioned heard a communications report to the battalion commander about the Phalangists "running wild."

The battalion commander did not confirm in his statements (no. 21 and no. 175) and testimony that he had received reports on Friday from any of his battalion's soldiers about acts of killing or violent actions by the Phalangists against the residents of the camps. According to him, he indeed heard on Thursday night, when he was in the forward command post, about 300 killed, a number which was later reduced to 120 killed; but on Friday the only report he received was about the escape of a few dozen beaten or wounded persons northward and eastward, and this was in the afternoon. At a later date, after the massacre in the camps was publicized, the battalion commander made special efforts to obtain a monitoring report of the battalion's radio frequency and he submitted this report to us (exhibit 1240). In this document no record was found of a report of acts of killing or maltreatment by the Phalangists on Friday.

We did not send a notice as per Section 15 to this battalion commander, and this for the reasons explained in the Introduction. We have not arrived at any findings or conclusions on the contradictory versions regarding the report to the battalion commander, and it appears to us that this subject can and should be investigated within the framework of the I.D.F., as we have proposed in the Introduction. For the purposes of the matters we are discussing, we determine that indeed I.D.F. soldiers who were near the embankment which surrounded the camp saw certain acts of killing and an attempt was made to report this to commanders of higher ranks; but this report did not reach Brigadier General Yaron or Major General Drori.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM

It is absurd to imagine that BBC, Guardian, Independent, Ch.4 news, etc., etc., are keeping "the truth" about Israel secret because of sinister and secret global organisations.
You are not deprived of the truth by our media, and you do not find it by trawling the net.

All you've done here is say that was I said was not true. You think that Keith says it, so it must be right. Not a shred of counter-research or evidence. And who said anything about global? Not me, that's for sure. Get a bloody grip, man. And read the sources I gave you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:45 PM

Sorry, italics went astray there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 05:55 PM

I am saying that I find it absurd Steve.
I do not believe it, but I admit I have found no journalists claiming that they are not gagged by non-global Israelis.
Funny that!

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:12 PM

Not as bloody absurd as that post, old bean.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:41 AM

Let me explain then.
When an attempt is made to gag our media, there is a media wide outcry.
Consider super injunctions, Leveson and privacy laws, D notices, Spy Catcher, gagging terrorists etc.
Your silly anecdotes asside, there is no-one claiming "the truth" about Israel cannot be told.
No-one would make an issue about not being gagged, so you can not expect much evidence.

Re your new book Jim.
When someone goes out to write a book about alien abduction, they find witnesses, and there is not even political motivation to make that up.
Kapeliouk went to the camps for a book.
Had he found just anothere Arab on Arab slaughter his book would have disappeared without trace.
It would certainly not still be in print 30 years later!
The massacres happened again and worse a couple of years later.
No books or Mudcat threads.
A thousand die in Syria every week, but who gives a shit?
No-one posts now never mind in 30 years time.
Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews.

So, before you transpose the whole book, let's draw a line.
We have been over it all many times before anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:25 AM

"When someone goes out to write a book about alien abduction,"
Of - for fucks sake!!!
Stop making "facts" up or at least back up your nonsensical claims with evidence of your own - utter, fabricated nonsense.
Would you care to dispute some of the facts in the book with real evidence - no - I thought now?
You have denied that you have dismissed evidence you there you are doing it again.
You have failed to provide one single scrap of evidence yourself and have carefully paraphrased the claims of those who have been accused of, tried and convicted beyond doubt of all of these horrific crimes.
"Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews."
The good old Anti-Semitic standby - the only Anti-Semites her are those who would connect these crimes with 'being a Jew' - these are Israeli crimes, not Jewish ones and it is on par with your making Pakistani males "cultural" paedophiles to suggest otherwise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:49 AM

Have just clicked through the book to check your claims of anti-Semitism.
Far from making it a "Jewish" thing, the author did exactly the opposite by devoting a whole chapter "Blame the Jews" to showing it was not. It contains this statement:

"Israeli writer Amos Kenan, writing for Yedi'ot Aharonot, stated that "In a single stroke, Mr. Begin, you have lost the one million Jewish children who were all you possessed on this earth. The one million children from Auschwitz no longer belong to you. You have sold them without any gain."

Outside of that chapter his few references to Judaism include this:

"Among the victims of the massacre were nine Jewish women who had married Palestinian men during the British Mandate and accompanied their husbands to Lebanon during the 1948 exodus."

You have consistently claimed you are not a liar, yet here you have manufactured a statement that is a blatant lie, and in doing so, it shows you as an Antisemite, not the author – but we already knew that, didn't we?
"transpose the whole book."
Wouldn't dream of it, you don't read the little put up for you anyway.
By the way - it isn't a "new book", either to me or to the now deceased author - I knew about it years ago and it was written shortly after the events - I don't even know if it's still in print - it's available on the web as a free download
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:01 AM

I withdraw "Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews."

Insert "Massacres only matter if you can frame Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:11 AM

""No. It is convincing evidence that IDF was neither expecting nor prepared for it.

His testimony to the enquiry exposed serious errors of judgement and probably of conduct by his immediate (low level)superiors.""

" Israeli soldiers who reported Phalangist atrocities against civilians to their superiors were ordered not to interfere with what was happening in the camps and not to enter the area. When Grabowski reported what he saw to his superiors, his tank crew quoted the battalion commander saying: ""We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere."" (Final Report, p. 35).

"Access to the camp was blocked by Israeli soldiers, who repeatedly ordered fleeing refugees to turn back.

That sentence, ""We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere.,"" is the response of someone who doesn't like what is happening, but is acting upon direct orders from above.

So, not ""serious errors of judgement and probably of conduct by his immediate (low level)superiors"", but orders from an altogether more senior level.

Your attempts to minimise the obviously pro-active nature of the Israeli involvement are both feeble and futile.

And the fact that the Israelis continued to turn back civilian refugees under white flags to be slaughtered proves their active involvement.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:12 AM

Withdraw what you want - you've said it several times and its a part of the shit of your ongoing defence of Israeli atrocities.
By you and your mate's constantly trying to make this an "Anti-Semitic"
issue you've attempted to pin these, long-established and proven crimes on the Jews rather than the real culprits, the Israelis.
I've got thoroughly pissed off with your inept, lying and lazy defence of war crimes, massacres and atrocities, you've done nothing for the Israeli cause with your cack-handedly feebly and totally unevidenced repetition of "they didn't do it but I'm not going to tell you how I know that" crassness
Nothing good has come from all your shit other than to add another score to your already deplorable record of dishonesty, evasion, deliberate misquotes and appalling insulting accusations towards members of this forum.
You are a racist and atrocity-denying little shit and the longer you keep this up the more people get to notice it - keep up the good work.
Jim Carroll
PS I didn't think for one moment you would even attempt to back up your claims, or even refer to the Sabra book - more lying

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:17 AM

""The battalion commander did not confirm in his statements (no. 21 and no. 175) and testimony that he had received reports on Friday from any of his battalion's soldiers about acts of killing or violent actions by the Phalangists against the residents of the camps.""

So you take the statement of a battalion commander, who stands to lose his rank if he admits that he had that information, against the word of soldiers with nothing whatever to gain from lying about events, and in your twisted mind, he is more likely to be telling the truth.

Pathetic!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

PPS for Keith
Please, please tell me I'm resorting to "personal insults because I'm losing the argument."
I've got a streaming cold and a sturmer of a headache and have had to cancel a play tonight that I was looking forward to - I really could do with a bit of a giggle!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM

Don, he produced the radio log to back up his claim, but who knows?
Although that report, Friday 4pm, did not get through others did and by that evening the Militia were ordered to remove all their fighters from the camp by 5am.
When Fisk entered at 10.30 am it was all over.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

"Proof is all you need" as the song nearly said - you haven't even bothered to link your claims - again and again and again and again...............
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:00 AM

My last post is sourced from Kahan, NYT Sept 26 1982, and Fisk's report all of which you have quoted.
Would you like any repeated Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:10 AM

Let me explain then.
When an attempt is made to gag our media, there is a media wide outcry.
Consider super injunctions, Leveson and privacy laws, D notices, Spy Catcher, gagging terrorists etc.
Your silly anecdotes asside, there is no-one claiming "the truth" about Israel cannot be told.

I don't have any "silly little anecdotes".

The press bias toward Israel doesn't work that way. Half our press is already in the ardently pro-Israel camp without pressure from anyone else. It would be nice to see balance, but pressure from pro-Israel lobby groups on the rest ensures that doesn't happen. You see, Keith, this is the problem here. You read nice things about Israel in the papers so you think that Israel is nice and you don't look beyond. You don't dig and delve. You are thoroughly in your pro-Israel comfort zone, so why should you even bother to look for dissent from your cosy viewpoint? That, old chap, is exactly where the lobby groups want you. You've fallen for it hook, line and sinker. That's how it works. You have most of the media batting for you, one or two exceptions striving to be "neutral" (at least The Guardian allows alternative opinions to be put in its Comments pages). It isn't so much a question of gagging, it's much more to do with rigged imbalance. But you think that the imbalance is good balance. You don't see how much harder it is to get alternative points of view (because you don't look), and, worse, because you think Israel is so squeaky-clean you don't want to do that hard work. Then, when we do it and give you the links, we are routinely dissed for providing lies, bias, silly anecdotes. My word, Keith, your faith in the media is nothing if not touching.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:16 AM

Don.
And the fact that the Israelis continued to turn back civilian refugees under white flags to be slaughtered proves their active involvement.
The quote from NYT is misleading.
If you read the whole thing you will see that many did get out, and even this group did not return to the camp.
Here is the relevant bit.


As they approached the Israeli checkpoint on the main boulevard, kitty-corner to the Barbir Hospital, they were stopped by an Israeli soldier. The soldier, by all accounts, was clearly surprised and probably frightened to see all of these people coming at him.

The soldier shouted in Arabic to the crowd to stay back, then went into crouch position at the corner of a building and aimed his gun at the people, who immediately started shrieking and turned around. Crowd Chooses a Spokesman

The soldier, members of the crowd recalled, then told them to send one person forward to explain what they wanted. A man was chosen and sent to speak to the Israeli.

According to the people, the spokesman told the soldier that Haddad militiamen were slaughtering civilians in the camps and that they were trying to escape.

The Israeli soldier told the spokesman that there was nothing he could do, and added that if they remained in the area, he would open fire.

People began protesting; women started weeping. The Israeli soldier then reportedly fired two volleys into the air to scatter the crowd. At that point, witnesses say, an Israeli tank rolled from Corniche Mazraa onto Rue Mohammed Ali Beyhum and chased the people a few hundred feet back toward the camps. A Witness Corroborates Account

Reporters who went to the intersection last Thursday afternoon found a Lebanese man who lived in a first-floor apartment who said he had seen the entire episode from his balcony. He confirmed the refugees' story without any prompting.

If the refugees' account is true, it would appear that by Friday afternoon the Israeli commanders had given no order to allow civilians fleeing the scene to pass through the perimeter set up around the camps by the Israeli Army.

''If we went one way we ran into the Israelis; if we went the other way we ran into the Haddad men,'' Taleb Alouki said, ''so we all just decided to turn around and hide in the school.''

Almost a week later, they were still there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:22 AM

Steve.
My word, Keith, your faith in the media is nothing if not touching.
Your faith in the internet is frightening.

I follow Guardian reports on Israel including the comments section so I am not being hoodwinked.
The Guardian would refute your suggestion that their news is imbalanced in Israel's favour, and so would I.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:37 AM

Israel has a nuclear weapons stockpile and latest armaments, many coming from the United States. They are clearly the more advanced in weapons technology over the Palestinians who have resorted to rock throwing, though not recently as they have adopted a non-violent stance regardless of Hamas.

The idea that Israel has tanks and superior weaponry that the use against the Palestinian people for whatever reason is odious and no mealy-mouthed editorialized journalistic excuses can refute this.

Israel and the U.S. are nuclear bullies. Both countries are armed to the teeth and their condemnation of Iran which doesn't have nuke weapons is totally hypocritical.
This goes for England, France, and other Nuke bomb owned countries.

What the Israeli government in conjunction with the U.S. is not only immoral but doesn't do anything for "security".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM

The Guardian would refute your suggestion that their news is imbalanced in Israel's favour, and so would I.

I said that The Guardian strove to be "neutral". You spend your whole life making stuff up, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:51 AM

I do not make things up Steve.
You wrote, "one or two exceptions striving to be "neutral" (at least The Guardian allows alternative opinions to be put in its Comments pages). "

I inferred, reasonably, that Comment was balanced but not the rest.

Anyway, I am definitely not hoodwinked if its all ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM

"I do not make things up Steve."
I assume the fact that, despite requests, you are offering neither proof nor links to your ludicrous statements, means that you are either making them up as you go along or lifting them from Israeli propaganda sites.
There is an unbelievable arrogance in all this. You offer no accredited back-up information of your own and you dismiss out-of-hand researched and accredited information we put up.
Your latest effort was to dismiss a well researched and annotated work (which you haven't read and won't read) on the greatest Israeli single massacre to date (certainly the greatest in the latter half of the 20th century) as comparable to "alien abductions".
You describe the Jewish author's (a resident of Jerusalem) outlook thus:
"Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews."
I hope you take yourself more seriously than everybody else does.
By the way - the only "evidence" you have provided that the Guardian and its journalists are eityher biased or anti-Semitic comes directly from a pro-Israeliu propaganda site who disecribes its role as
"CIFWATCH
"MONITORING AND COMBATING ANTISEMITISM, AND THE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL'S LEGITIMACY, AT THE GUARDIAN AND ITS BLOG, 'COMMENT IS FREE."'
An Israeli propaganda site, no less.
And you've got the neck to claim our sources are biased
One more time - can we please have links to your nutty claims before I start seeking out your cut-'n-pastes and announcing them all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:03 PM

"No sensible person wants to see Syria's arsenal handed out to militant Islamists, as happened in Libya."
Just started trawling through the thankless task of trawling though this thread to find your sources and came across this gem - were you aware that the British government is considering arming the Syrian rebels - "sensible people eh - what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:07 PM

So, Jim, what you are saying is that EVERYTHING posted on an Arab/AntiZionist site must be believed, and NOTHING on an Israeli/Zionist site is to be believed???

Is that a correct summary of your comment?


Some of us look at all reports, and try to figure out the truth. Al-Jazeera is biased, as is the Jerusalem Post, but BOTH are worth the effort of reading, if one is interested in finding out the reality of what is going on. NEITHER one prints all the information, nor is absolutely factual at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:07 PM

On the contrary Bruce – keep up.
Keith has rejected literally all information criticising Israel as coming from biased, unreliable and in some cases Anti Semitic sources (the latter being one of your much used accusations too), while the rest of us have questioned Israeli information only when it contradicts well researched and widely accepted and proven facts.
Keith's latest spectacular own-goal in his writing off what is, as far as I can see, the definitive work on Sabra and Shatila massacre by Jewish, Jerusalem resident (as was - he's dead nowadays!) Amnon Kapeliouk thus "Massacres only matter if you can frame the Jews".
In ascribing Israeli atrocities to "Jews" rather than "the Israeli regime" is deeply anti Semitic – I would have thought you would have been deeply offended by such viciousness, yet you seem to subscribe to that school of thought yourself – please tell me it isn't so!!

For Keith
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9709946/West-could-arm-Syrian-rebels-within-months-after-Britain-wins-diplomatic-battle.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:15 PM

Jim, I keep asking you what you want substantiated, and you just keep accusing me of not doing it.
Just say what you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

Is that a correct summary of your comment?

Not to anyone who can read and/or reason it isn't, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:38 AM

""If the refugees' account is true, it would appear that by Friday afternoon the Israeli commanders had given no order to allow civilians fleeing the scene to pass through the perimeter set up around the camps by the Israeli Army.

''If we went one way we ran into the Israelis; if we went the other way we ran into the Haddad men,'' Taleb Alouki said, ''so we all just decided to turn around and hide in the school.''

Almost a week later, they were still there.""

What are you on mate? That passage confirms exactly what we have been saying, that the Israelis were complicit in the massacre.

You really think that because one group hid out and survived, no thanks to the Israeli army, that this exonerates Israel from blame for the whole massacre?

Your complete separation fom reality is astounding.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:58 AM

""So, Jim, what you are saying is that EVERYTHING posted on an Arab/AntiZionist site must be believed, and NOTHING on an Israeli/Zionist site is to be believed???""

Classic! And you are saying that:-

Asociated Press
Reuters
BTSelem
Israeli Soldiers
Israeli citizens
Foreign doctors and nurses

are all ""Arab/AntiZionist"", and nothing they say is to be believed.

And against this you put up the word of the accused (the Israeli government) and NO independent witness support, and this must be believed.

Give us one good solid reason

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM

Don,
Yes, by that Friday afternoon there was a soldier who would not let them pass.
Later, the news of the killings got through and the militia were ordered out.

There is no complicity. The soldiers were not expecting such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:10 AM

Interesting that, ever since I mentioned AIPAC a couple of days ago, I've been pelted with AIPAC banner ad after AIPAC banner ad every time I visit mudcat. I don't suppose this post will help.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:27 AM

"The soldiers were not expecting such a thing"
Exerpts from Amnon Kapeliouk's book:
More to come.
Jim Carroll

"The Israeli Army decided otherwise. As early as noon on Wednesday, the camps of Sabra and Shatila, which were not separated by any exact boundary, were surrounded by Israeli tanks pointing their guns at the camps. A little later, Israeli soldiers set up check-points around the camps, allowing them to control all entrances and exits. Anxiety began to mount inside the camps. The great majority of the inhabitants locked themselves inside their homes. The PLO fighters -who had always defended the camps and resisted the siege of Beirut for weeks- were no longer there. No visible sign of their presence remained except for old posters glued to the walls of shattered homes. The Palestinian refugees of both camps -mostly elderly, women, and children- had avoided any confrontation with the Israeli Army for fear of reprisals. In anticipation of the rainy season, they had just begun to rebuild their homes shelled during the Israeli siege. Since the departure of the Palestinian fighters, all traces of armed presence in the camps had disappeared.
During the late afternoon and early evening, a few shells were fired by the Israeli Army in the direction of Sabra and Shatila. Norwegian Doctor Per Maehlumshagen, an orthopedic surgeon at Gaza Hospital situated to the west of Sabra, testified that the first wounded, about fifteen persons, started to be brought in that Wednesday evening. Others, generally victims of sniper fire, arrived the same evening at Akka Hospital, across the road that marks the southern edge of Shatila.
Zaki, an electrician from Sabra, recounted that he had accompanied other camp residents to an Israeli military post to express their fear of being captured by armed Lebanese groups. The Israeli soldiers reassured them, claiming that nothing would happen to them, "because they were civilians, not terrorists." Then, they ordered them to return to their homes."

"At 3:00 P.M., the commander of the Israeli forces in Beirut, Brigadier General Amos Yaron, and two of his staff officers met with Elie Hobeika, director of intelligence in the Lebanese Forces, and Fadi Frem, their chief of staff. With the assistance of aerial Photographs furnished by Israel, they coordinated the details of the Phalangist entry into the camps. The Israeli general confirmed that his troops would supply all the necessary assistance: "to mop up the terrorists in the camps. Then, Major General Drori called Ariel Sharon to announce: "Our friends are marching on the camps. " We have coordinated their entry." "Congratulations!" replied Ariel Sharon, "The operation of our friends is approved.""

"Various accounts are in full agreement concerning the precise time of the assailants' entry into the camps. According to Israeli soldiers present in the area, the time of entry was 5:15 P.M. Camp residents confirm that the first organized murders began at 5:00, or even a little earlier in certain locations in Shatila. Ariel Sharon declared before the Knesset that "the forces entered [the camps] at night." Furthermore, everyone agrees that the attackers entered from two directions: from the south through the main road leading to the camps, and from the southwest coming down the hill near the Kuwaiti Embassy. Leading the campaign was Elie Hobeika."

"Ha'aretz correspondent Michael Gerti and photographer Uzi Keren, who arrived at Shatila the day after the massacre, filed the following account by two Israeli paratroopers: "It was possible to stop the massacre in Shatila, even on Thursday; had they acted on what we reported to our commander." One of the soldiers voluntarily admitted to the journalists: "On Thursday evening, as darkness fell, Palestinian women from Shatila arrived at the post and hysterically told us that the Phalangists were shooting their children and putting the men in trucks. I reported this to my commander, but all he said was: 'It is okay, do not worry.' My order was to tell the women to go back home. However, many women, and entire families as well, ran away from the camps to the north. I went back and repeated my report over and over. Each time, however, the answer was the same: "It is okay." An Israeli officer belonging to the same select unit reported to Gerti and Keren that he had received several reports of this type. However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics." (Ha'aretz, September 23, 1982)."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:51 AM

So you do intend to transpose your whole book!
Did you notice "a soldier" was embellished to "soldiers"?
Just a minor change from the original report but you have to wonder.

He went to find witnesses against Israel, and luckily he found them or he would have had no book.
But, we all know that witnesses can always be found to denounce Israel, even when there has been no crime.
They lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM

More (ibid)
Jim Carroll
On many occasions, Israeli officers in constant contact with the Christian forces heard such remarks as: "We'll cut their throats," or "blood will be knee-deep." After learning of Sharon's decision to authorize Phalangist entry into the camps, an Israeli officer reacted by stating: "He who allows a fox into a hen-house should not be astonished if the chickens are devoured." Another Israeli officer, who served a long time at the headquarters of the northern front, said: ''The Lebanese Forces resemble the militias of Sa'ad Haddad. They both pose as heroes in the face of unarmed civilians." He recalled that during the ''Litani Operation'' of March 1978 (the first Israeli invasion of south Lebanon), Haddad's troops were content to follow the Israeli Army, ransacking and killing along their path. All the inhabitants of the village of Khiyam were savagely massacred and all their possessions loaded on trucks by Haddad's men.
Nothing better illustrates the state of mind prevalent at the Israeli command than the following minor event reported by the Labor daily, Davar. After Ariel Sharon had decided to authorize the Phalangists to "mop-up the camps," an officer suggested that an Israeli liaison officer should accompany them on their mission. However, a higher-ranking officer rejected the idea on the spot. He argued that one would expect the Phalangists to commit irregularities, thus, it would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved. This same officer knew that the operation was led by Elie Hobeika, an old acquaintance of the Israelis, and was also aware of the implications of Hobeika's involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:55 AM

None of the examples in your last post suggests complicity anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:20 AM

" suggests complicity anyway"
"On many occasions, Israeli officers in constant contact with the Christian forces heard such remarks as: "We'll cut their throats," or "blood will be knee-deep."
"However, a higher-ranking officer rejected the idea on the spot. He argued that one would expect the Phalangists to commit irregularities, thus, it would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved."
"They lie."
""Ha'aretz correspondent Michael Gerti and photographer Uzi Keren, who arrived at Shatila the day after the massacre, filed the following account by two Israeli paratroopers: ""
Why - anti Semitic or what?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:52 AM

If we have to go through your whole book we will be here for years.
Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?

The paratrooper had only been told of crimes by someone.
He passed it on but it was not believed.
"However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics.""

" would be unwise for the Israeli Army to be involved."
A report that appeared only in one paper, and who was the informant?
Was there an informant?
Who knows. It was thirty one years ago!
Now, what was this thread supposed to be about before you hijacked it as you always do when it goes against you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:18 AM

"Remind me why we have to discuss this piece of history anyway.
Because this is the subject in hand at present
Do you still want me to substantiate anything?"
You have not substantiated one single thing you have said not with evidence nor even with links to your claims - and this continues to be the case.
No - I don't want you to substantiate anything any more - you have failed to respond to do so despite constant requests - your input here is no more than your own twistd invention.
I'm more than happy to continue to point out that fact for the length of this thread - and to point out your crass, self-important arrogance in imagining that what you have to say has anything to do with the real world.
I ask again "Why - anti Semitic or what?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:23 AM

Just a reminder of you are calling a liar - Haaretz is Israel's oldest national newspaper - the Israeli equivalent of the Guardian or the Independent - and its sources were Israeli soldiers.
One more time "Why - anti Semitic or what?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM

The paratrooper had only been told of crimes by someone.
He passed it on but it was not believed.
"However, he added: "Everybody was sure it was just hysterics.""
Not lies.
Not antisemitism.
Just not evidence of complicity.


If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is.
You can't though.
It is just bluster.

This historical dead end is only "the subject in hand at present" because you dragged it up, as you always do when a ME thread goes against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:36 AM

To add insult to injury:
Israeli child abuse

Steve, AIPAC is a highly prejudicial organization, pro-Zionist that is evangelical
in its approach to countering opposition. They are only really popular in the U.S. since the rise of para-military organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:50 AM

Stringy, I don't blame you for ignoring Jim's desperate attempts to change the subject.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM

You want something new? - as fresh as this morning's news.
What's a girl to do - ignore, deny or accuse Unicef of being antisemitic - choices, choices?
Jim Carroll

PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ILL-TREATED BY ISRAELI MILITARY, SAYS UNICEF.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:11 PM

Yeah, I know about AIPAC. Pity most yanks don't seem to. They are the enemies of democracy and need to be exposed as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

"Jim's desperate attempts to change the subject."
Are you out of your mind or do you think we are?
Are you seriously attempting to claim that a topic that has been part of this thread from its earliest postings and has been contributed to here by many participants is "thread drift"?
You really are a ruthlessly dishonest little prick.
And don't you dare try to implicate another member of this forum in your lying.
Stringsinger has just re-introduced another aspect of your human-rights abuses denials, and it is perfectly valid of him of him to have done so.
This thread, thanks to your own fanatical defence of every single atrocity carried out and facilitated by Israel, is about your own slimy efforts to defend massacres, war crimes, human rights abuses, racism, ethnic cleansing, the poisoning of whole communities, chemical warfare..... you name it, you've defended it.
You seem to now be a self-appointed Lord Haw-Haw for Israel
Do not treat us as morons - go look in the mirror if you want one.
"If I have failed to substantiate something, just tell me what it is."
And your moronic repetition of this only serves to underline your extremely disturbed state of mind.
You have not qualified one single statement of yours with evidence, you have not even provided links to your claims - all but a few of them are your twisted inventions, the rest are lifted from dedicated Israeli propaganda sites.
I suggest you start at the first claim you have made here and either show us where you have qualified it or now provide a link so we may do so for ourselves.
You have an extremely wide field - so far you have substantiated nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Israel condemned by UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Right
Starter for ten - despite all the masses of evidence you have been given on the part Israel played in the Sabra Shatila massacre, you have denied that it took no part whatever in the slaughter of up to 3,500 refugees -
give us the evidence you base this claim on - the perpetrators claiming that they didn't do it does not count as evidence.
'Way you go
Jim Carroll