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BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle
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Subject: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Mickey191 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:39 PM Maine The latest incident of "Muslim outrage" involves a middle-school student purportedly placing a ham sandwich wrapped in a baggie on a lunch table where Somali Muslim students sit. One 14 year-old unnamed Somali student is reported to have said: "At the school the next day, I didn't feel safe. I felt like everybody was against me. Before I felt like I fit in, and everything was normal." The ham-placing "offending student" has been suspended, the Maine middle school is calling the placing of the ham sandwich a "hate crime" and the local police are investigating the child. More charges against the child may be forthcoming. School Superintendent Leon Levesque said: "The school incident is being treated seriously as a hate incident!" Then, in the true and remarkable spirit of the Kumbaya-for-Islam set, Levesque added: "We've got some work to do to turn this around and bring the school community back together again." Note: Again, 'presenting pork' is only an offense and "hate crime" if it involves Muslims. AS reported in Liberty Post.Org Insanity Reigns-What say you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:41 PM So, I gather the kid din't eat it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Arnie Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:53 PM Strangely enough, there is a village near here in Kent,UK named Ham, and it's not far from the seaside town of Sandwich. The signpost with Ham Sandwich on it was stolen so many times that they never bothered replacing it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:58 PM So a beer to wash it down is out of the question I take it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:09 PM "The signpost with Ham Sandwich on it was stolen so many times that they never bothered replacing it!" This is what we call 'direct action'. But re: the sandwich incident - you can imagine the look on the desk-sergeant's face when one of these calls comes in. It might make a good Bob Newhart skit: " ... yes, ma'am ... a sandwich, ma'am ... and it WAS in a baggy? Because that makes a difference ... oh, we DO take these things seriously, people have been KILLED by sandwiches ... " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ebbie Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM There is no doubt but that the incident *was* done with malice, even if the student and those who egged him into it were doing it in fun. All I have to do is visualize how any one of us would feel if someone put a baggy of roadkill or worse beside our plates. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Alice Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:49 PM A trip to the principle's office and an apology to the the Muslim student should have handled it. Getting the police involved.. way over reaction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Becca72 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:54 PM This may not be a very popular view in some places (I live in Maine, BTW) but I get SO tired of everyone on the freakin' planet claiming to be a victim of something. Sticks and stones, people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Sorcha Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM I told ya, the world has gone crazy out there! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Mickey191 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:57 PM Ebbie, Do you think reporting this as a hate crime with possible (I take that as probable) additional charges against this CHILD a proper action? If the kid had put a dead rat in a baggy and placed it on the lunch table, I doubt the police would have been called. He probably would have been given detention instead of facing the long arm of the law. Where has common sense gone? The Muslim kid sounds damn well rehearsed with "Soap opera" dialogue! Our country and others are under seige & these niggling stupidities are changing us irrevocably. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:50 PM I read a report recently of a school that decided to cancel a performance of the 'Three Little Pigs' because they thought it would offend Muslims - a bit like thinking a story about ponies would offend people who don't eat horsemeat. They were planning to replace it with a story about three little puppies. They were totally unaware that Muslims regard dogs as unclean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: mg Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:54 PM no suspension, no police but a whole lot of sensitivity training, preferably on a Saturday, for the student, the ones egging him or her on, parental involvement and informing the whole student body that things like this will not be tolerated. 14 is probably the age of maximum stupidity in a student and the Somali students should be assured that steps will be taken so this does not happen again and their safety is the chief concern of teh school. What a crock...I have worked in many schools where safety was dead last on the to do list. I remember when the Cambodian children came to Seattle schools...they were psychologically tortured by other students, who did not realize how bad they were being...they were doing their normal routines of "I'm going to kill you" and other threats they make to each other (or did..I think there hopefully is less than that now.) When the Cambodian children would hear this, having just come from a land where if someone said that they meant it, they were just terrified. My sister in law and I were driving in Seattle and one day and found a child lying in the street. We assumed he had been hit by a car, had a seizure or something..no..he had been bullyed so badly on the way home he just lay down in the street and I guess couldn't move... Anyway, it goes back to bullying and students must be stopped and must be made to realize what they are doing. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:00 PM We don't know if there is any bullying going on in this incident, and if there is, we don't know who the real bullies are. Let's face it - we really don't know anything at all about this incident. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:25 PM Apparently there was a real story which was spoofed in a parody story, which was then picked up by Fox, which mixed aspects of the two items, with the Fox folks' intent difficult to discern: http://thinkprogress.org/2007/04/27/fox-parody/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:28 PM Sounds like a real happenin' kind of town: "And then last Saturday, Brent Matthews, a Lewiston man who became known for rolling a pig's head into a Somali mosque last July, committed suicide at Marden's parking lot." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: gnu Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:31 PM ".... placing a ham sandwich wrapped in a baggie on a lunch table where Somali Muslim students sit." Well, there it is. Surely this is an offense against God himself. Behead those who would.... Oh my.... here we go again.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Mickey191 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:54 PM Our society seems to be caving in to the pressure from PC. Walmarts recently had to reassign cashiers who wouldn't ring up pork products. NOW--don't you think these cashiers knew they'd be handling pork chops & bacon? Of course they did!!! They had to. The end result is a small victory for them - but does it not spread fear among employers? The fear that if these people's beliefs are not honored that retaliation may follow. A bomb in the night? What the hell is happening? Anyone familiar with a great speech given by an Australian politico addressing this problem? It was top drawer-I'm going to search it out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Mickey191 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 04:39 PM Got it!! Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with g Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that _extremists_ would face a crackdown. __________________________________________________ Prime Minister John Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques Quote: "IMMIGRANTS,NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians." "However, the dust from the attacks hadbarely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming toAustralia." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle." "This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!" "Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us. If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others. "This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'. "If you aren'thappy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 04:52 PM You did check this out, right? It's really hard to know what if anything happened at that school. "Walmarts recently had to reassign cashiers who wouldn't ring up pork products." Can you provide a source and/or link? Ditto re: the John Howard speech. Sorry, but I'm becoming more skeptical by the day of everything that I don't see with my own eyes. Even things I do see with my own eyes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp Link to the Howard speech from 2005. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: bobad Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:05 PM Here's an article about cashiers at Target stores refusing to scan bacon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:08 PM The pork thing took place in Minneapolis and it was Target stores. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:31 PM Thanks, Peace. The Snopes article confirms the gist of the John Howard speech - although, curiously, the remarks actually quoted in that article are not in the text of the speech Mickey posted ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:53 PM The snopes article comes nowhere close to confirming the quotes given above by Mickey191. The quotes above and the snopes article have no relevance whatsoever to the topic at hand, as originated by Mickey191. The original post by Mickey191 comes nowhere close to presenting accurate facts of the underlying story as they can be ascertained from web-based materials. This thread is an amorphous fuzzy thing about disdain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:02 PM "an amorphous fuzzy thing about disdain" - I like that! "The snopes article comes nowhere close to confirming the quotes given above by Mickey191." I just took another look at the Snopes article - and I stand corrected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:07 PM snopes.com: Muslims out of Australia!CANBERRA AUSTRALIA: Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in ... msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/37/t/001035/p/1.html - 140k - Cached - Similar pages Get out of Australia, 'radical' Muslims told - Sify.comMuslims who want to live under the Islamic Sharia law were told Wednesday to get out of Australia as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off ... headlines.sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13924046 - 54k - Cached - Similar pages Iran Daily - World Politics - 08/25/05SYDNEY, Australia, Aug. 24--Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told Wednesday to get out of Australia as the government targeted ... www.iran-daily.com/1384/2359/html/politic.htm - 37k - Cached - Similar pages Daily Times - Leading News Resource of PakistanGet out if you want Sharia law, Australia tells Muslims. CANBERRA: Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of ... www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-8-2005_pg1_2 - 27k - Cached - Similar pages Yahoo! Answers - TRUE/FALSE? Muslims who want to live under ...5 answers - Yahoo! Answers - TRUE/FALSE? Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia? answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060826224812AAf5Zfh - 99k - Cached - Similar pages The Cross of StGeorge blogThree Cheers For Australia Those Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government ... crossofstgeorge.net/news/blog.php?subaction=showcomments&id=1155599235&archive=&start_from=... - 27k - Cached - Similar pages Issues and Action - Congress.orgMuslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to ... www.congress.org/congressorg/bio/userletter/?id=5508&letter_id=1148989686 - 28k - Cached - Similar pages Three Cheers for Australia | The Conservative BrotherhoodMuslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off ... conservativebrotherhood.org/?q=node/104 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages The Snopes article was an attempt to get to the truth of what was said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:09 PM "Get out if you want Sharia law, Australia tells Muslims CANBERRA: Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks. A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television. "I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country which practises it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said. Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off". "Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spies monitoring the nation's mosques. agencies" That is quoted from the Pakistani "Daily Times". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Mickey191 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:11 PM Thanks Bobad- There were 2 other stores mentioned in that link-in addition to Targets who had the same problem. I heard the Walmart Story on CBS Radio News NY. I think it was Nov. or Dec."06. Was unaware of Target & the others-so it may be a movement. Thanks Bruce - When I read the speech I checked out its veracity at the time-can't recall exactly-but I believe it was a newspaper printout. AS for the Snopes article, they didn't give the whole speech-I have also the Costello quotes And others which preceded the Prime Minister's - but in the interest of space I didn't include the whole thing. I started quoting the sentence which precedes the quoted speech as shown also on Scopes: Prime Minister John Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques..... The entire article I posted on FindItIreland.com in the political form under "HappyMs" Is everybody happy now? I'm going to have a cuppa tea & a BACON sandwich! Ciao Amigos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: skipy Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:13 PM Ebbie, you said/typed "egged" you have probably upset someone! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:13 PM You were right, youyerself, just more tempered in presentation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: frogprince Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:18 PM Some student needs a good talking to, and possibly just enough disciplinary action to be sure he takes it seriously. It's Fox "News" that should be charged with more than one hate crime, for God knows how many incidents of knowingly pumping out devisive, inflamatory poppycock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Mickey191 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:21 PM Holy Cow-- While I'm getting material together The natives are rising. The thing you all seem to be missing is that Snopes didn't have his quoted speech. It had the preamble-the set-up. Do you think I fabricated this out of whole cloth? Bruce, Darlin' You chose the correct username- "Peace" A Prince among men. Thank you! Mickey |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:29 PM No not from whole cloth. But it has nothing to do with anything, to the extent some of it is accurate. Hands up those who think there was a ham sandwich, anywhere in relation to any of this. Hands up those who think the kid who got the ham slapped in front of him is a poster child for Muslim outrage and a rsdical proponent of Sharia law in America, as opposed to a kid who just wanted to eat his tuna fish sandwich. Fox really is an amazing thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ebbie Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:32 PM I agree with those who think that this should have been addressed within the school system. Possibly the Somali student/family involved the law? I am not vegetarian but lately I have realized that some of those who disapprove viscerally (no pun intended) of devouring other beings may not only be dismayed by the idea but also be revulsed to the point of nausea by the odors involved in handling and cooking meat. Just possibly they have the same reaction to meat, per se, that we "normal" people would have to cannibalism. Just possibly these people are the frontrunners of a complete turnaround in the diets of the world. I dunno. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:34 PM Re the 'egged' remark: I am founder and president of FAD, and while it is not chickens per se that we speak for, they being unable to speak for themselves, they have our sympathies.When we find remarks like that on the internet--blogs, forums, news stories, we quickly respond with the expression from which we take the first letter from each word of our rallying cry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:36 PM Show of hands - how many people thought Don Imus got the punishment he deserved for calling the Rutgers womens basketball team "nappy headed hos"? If you you think his firing was justified, do you feel that the charges against the student who left the sandwich was also justified? If you did not answer "yes" to both questions or "no" to both questions, how do see a difference? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:36 PM I never thought you "fabricated" the speech - but it did occur to me that you could have copied it from a less-than-reliable source. And you don't seem to know where you got it yourself, if I understand you correctly, so I don't feel like I'm any further ahead ... Peace: Is the text of the speech given in one or all of those sites? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:43 PM Ron: I don't think that any charges have been laid/filed against anyone. I think that a kid just wanted to eat his own sandwich in peace, and is a poster child for a world going crazy all around him. And even if the Attorney General's office pushes the matter further, don't forget this is a town where pig's heads are rolling down the aisles in houses of worship. Context. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:49 PM I'd have to check the individual sites, meself. I think that Snopes got involved because the text as quoted was working its way around the e-mail circuit. Regardless of where Mickey got that from, the facts about it can be found HERE . Incidentally, there are likely dozens of sites with that text, word for word, because "the reason history repeats itself is because historians repeat each other". However, it wasn't duplicitousness on Mickey's part. (Also, the link out-Snopes Snopes.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: mg Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:59 PM I would not have fired Imus, although I would have read the riot act to him and his creepy manager, and I would not have involved the police in the ham sandwich. It is was a kid innocently leaving a sandwich down somewhere, just ask them to be more careful in the future. However, it sounds like it was a provocative and offensive act..done as only a 14 year old can do it. Something was called for in terms of teaching him or her that we do not in this school go around deliberately offending people and furthermore, scaring them if they saw it as an act of intimidation, which they very well might have. Chances are pretty good that any people from certain countries that have had hard times recetnly are traumatized..at the very least they have been uprooted. Kids can be cruel to each other or they can be very helpful and it is up to the adults to stomp out any cruelty, intimidation etc. It is the law of the jungle and that is why we have society, to protect the weaker from the pecking order, and believe me, kids of that age will pick each other to death, literally, left unsupervised and untrained. The nonsense about kids having to be taught to hate may or may not be true for 3 year olds, but 13 year olds, whether they hate or not, can very instinctively be brutal to each other, sometimes as a preemptive strike so that they aren't picked on. This again goes back, perhaps, I am not sure in this case (it could have been a sort of a joke that appealed to a teen) to bullying...it has to be stopped. Grownups have to be grownups. Now, you don't need to overreact and call the police when there is not danger..but you need to do something. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:00 PM >it wasn't duplicitousness on Mickey's part< I don't think anyone thinks so. It still has nothing to do with what happened here. A kid just wanted to eat his lunch. No facts known suggest that he wants you to be forbidden from putting ham sandwiches in baggies, or to be stoned or mutilated for stuff. Ron: Oh, now I realize that you probably see it as "hate speech" (Not necessarily as a legal term of art.) Depending on what the facts actually were (!!), I probably do, too. The kids at that school should (probably) be shown A Bad Day at Black Rock, with Spencer Tracy, and we let this die. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:01 PM "I would not have fired Imus" I would never have hired him. PERIOD! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:02 PM >Now, you don't need to overreact and call the police < I don't think anyone called the police. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong here, people: 1) That speech was NOT made by John Howard; it is a rant that has been circulating on the internet since September of 2001; and, 2) The original post, about the ham sandwich, is 90% a hoax perpetrated 90% by Fox News, and repeated on here, and it is quite clear that none of us here knows anything about what if anything happened at that school; and, 3) a number of people are going to keep this thread going, continuing to discuss and argue about something that for all they know never happened ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:17 PM I suppose people would feel just as cheerful about the idea of some young lout doing the same ham sandwich bit to a Jewish child refugee back in the 30s. Actually they probably would if they'd been around at that time, I suspect. The target may vary, but the mindset remains the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:27 PM Maine is not a perfect state and, yes, believe it or not there are incidents of bullying going on in our classrooms, and it's been going on for years. And, yes, some of the bullying is directed against more recent immigrants such as the Somalies. 50 years ago there was similar bullying directed against French-Canadians. Some thought the bullying was all in fun. Some still think it's fun. They're all wrong when they think that and it takes a whole lot of community meetings and protests to make it better. In this case the "ham sandwich" was just the tip of the iceberger. A year ago in Lewiston one misquiged soul rolled a pig's head into a mosque where Somalies were praying. He thought it was a joke. They were appalled. He was indicted for a hate crime. Anyone here who thinks this was a "funny" incident, or an over reaction of PC, is no friend of mine. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM meself: That about sums it up. The internet allows for lots of shit to be smeared on lots of people. We see the same thing with Obama and folks capitalizing on the distrust in the US for Muslims. We see the same thing on lots of issues. I think all religions with few exceptions (I say that to cover my ass because although I can't think of any exceptions, no doubt someone will call my attention to one three minutes after I post this) are getting their damned faces into issues that are anything but spiritual, and Muslims today are about as bright as Christians were during the Crusades. I cannot recall who said "Religion cannot be exported" or words to that effect, but that person was right. They are specific to areas in which they originated because for the people in those areas the religion served a purpose. Today, religions are fast becoming a tool to manipulate the masses, and I'm not so sure the m should be on that word. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:36 PM As a child I joined a gang because the Eng;lish-speaking kids in my district who were out-numbered by the French-speaking kids need a method of protection that was not offered by the adults around us. I do not hate French people because of it. Was it hate crime? I suppose. Our response was hate, too. So what's new in fifty years? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:37 PM The whole world needs a big Time Out. Cool off. Geez. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:38 PM Charley I am sure that Maine is a perfectly human state, the same as all others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: pdq Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:50 PM April 26, 2007 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:07 PM (sigh) Can you give us a web source for this story? We've just been had by a hoax story about a ham sandwich, by a hoax "speech" by an Australian Prime Minister, and I just heard the wife of rock icon Randy Bachman, Denise ... , apologizing on national radio (CBC) for having repeated on a previous show some "information" that she had gotten from a web site that she had assumed was reliable ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:19 PM I'd like to bow out of Vol. II, but here is the cite: http://www.nisnews.nl/public/270407_1.htm True or false or in between, note the predominantly political tenor of the article. Short on pig facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Mickey191 Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:20 PM Published: April 24, 2007 at 8:54 PM E-mail Story | Print Preview | License Ham steak called hate crime How was this story a FOX - invented story? THis from UPI INTERNATIONAL Site LEWISTON, Maine, April 24 (UPI) -- A ham steak tossed onto a school lunchroom table has a Maine community struggling with what constitutes a hate crime and bruised race relations. After the April 11 incident in Lewiston Middle School, a public forum held by the city's Sun Journal newspaper had to be halted because of the overt hostility on display. "A lot of anger and hate has been flying around," said Steve Wessler of the Center for the Prevention of Hate Violence, who has received hate e-mail and two threatening phone messages, the newspaper reported Tuesday. School Superintendent Leon Levesque said last week one student was suspended and more disciplinary action was possible as police investigated the incident in which a white student placed a ham steak in a bag on a lunch table where Somali students were eating. Muslims consider pork a dietary taboo. "We need to take a look at this and review how a careless act is degrading and causes hurt to other people," Levesque said. A 14-year-old Somali boy, who was with four other Somali students at the table, said he "felt angered, offended." Del.icio.us | Digg it | RSS © Copyright 2007 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved. United Press International, UPI, the UPI logo, and other |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:47 PM Mickey191- You've got the story correct and I believe that School Superintendent Levesque is doing the right thing. What's missing in this snippit of the story is five years of cultural interaction between a growing Somali community and the residents of a majority French-Canadian small city. At one point a previous mayor had the nerve to request the Somali elders that further immifration of Somalies should be discouraged because "it" was becoming a problem. There were mass demonstrations in support of the Somali community and the mayor later aplogized for any harm that his letter might have caused. It's a complex situation that doesn't lend itself to comparative news clips, and there probably are a few Somalies that at this point are bitter and suspicious. What part of the phrase "hate crime" don't you undertand? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,meself Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:09 PM Mickey - Did you check out the link heric posted 'way back when? I didn't say Fox "invented" the story - they repeated and blew-up what was (apparently) already an exaggerated, slanted, misleading version of the incident that appeared on an apparently questionable web-site. I'm not going to go through the three different accounts of this incident item by item to point out all the differences; you can do it: look at the version in your first post, check out the linked article, look at the latest version you posted, and compare them all. And then consider the background that Charley Noble has added. Btw, even the version from UPI is contradictory. It opens with the white student having "tossed" a ham steak onto a table, later it has him having "placed a ham steak in a bag on a lunch table". One suggests a kind of contemptuous aggression, the other suggests something which could have been innocuous, even polite. One suggests an action which could have been on the spur of the moment, the other suggests an action which is much more deliberate. Which was it? Who knows? I sure as hell don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:24 PM I have just had the unpleasant experience of reviewing libertypost.org news items. But they did lead me to the first, mainstream article on the subject, from the local Lewiston paper: SunJournal.com One kid has been suspended. The police are investigating. (I still think, however, that the A-G probably requested that, after the school officials filed a required report with the A-G.) Still, the entire story arises from white kids taunting Somali immigrant kids based on their religion (and perhaps race.) The school officials are the ones taking action. One may think that ham should not be so upsetting,* but this incident is not, by any stretch of the imagination, an example of Muslims trying to force sharia on the Western World. * Don't forget pig's head rolling in houses of worship. It is integral to the story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:38 PM " Ron: Oh, now I realize that you probably see it as "hate speech" " Honestly, I am not 100% sure how I feel about this story, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point is, they are treating the ham sandwich incident as a hate crime, just as they treated Imus as hate speech. Is there a difference? Do we feel different about one situation as opposed to the other? In both cases, someone was deeply offended - either by race or religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Sorcha Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:17 PM Look, I get offended pret near every day and I don't call the cops. Yes, we may have been 'Foxed' again, but jeeze, grow a skin. I hate earthworms. Would I call the cops if somebody tossed on, bagged or not, on my table? No. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:35 PM Let me ask this. What kind of polarizations is this world undergoing when people identify themselves as a RELIGION? We see this in a few groups--all fundamental to one degree or other. All preached to by folks who want to control their lives, completely. "Hi. My name is ##########. I am a %%%%%%%%." What the hell is THAT about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: katlaughing Date: 28 Apr 07 - 11:56 PM Thanks, Charley, for your voice of reason and experience. If they get away with such when youngsters, it can turn into much worse as they get older. Bullying and hate need to be stopped. Remember way back when Rick Fielding posted about being "ethically" conscious? Making a choice based on what is ethical? Nothing wrong with that; anyone who cries about PC should stop to think about EC. I might also note that most of you who are deriding this story are generally not in the minority, that we know of. It is safe for you to make fun and post derisive comments. Ebbie, thanks to you, too, for considering us "veggies" and how the smell and site of raw and/or cooking meat can turn our stomachs, etc. I have grown more used to it, at others' houses, but in the past it has made me physically ill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Bert Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:01 AM Is there a difference? Yes, one, it is a case of kids bullying at school. It is time that the education system got a grip on this. They are in charge of the schools and bullying has gone on as long as there have been schools. Educators, DO YOUR JOB, and stop bullying from happening in your schools NOW. I can remember our head master bringing a few bullies on to the stage at assembly time and telling the whole school that they were getting six of the best before being suspended. The second case regarding Imus is still a problem of education, but it is too late for the school system to deal with it. I would have made him live in Chester Pennsylvania (or Coatesville) for at least five years so that he could learn that his new neighbors were kind and loving people, just like he thinks that HE is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 29 Apr 07 - 03:46 AM Jews have the same beliefs about Pork. Why don't make asses of themselves about it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:33 AM " Why don't make asses of themselves about it? " In your eyes. You feel that you can judge what is proper behavior for others and are entitled to comment on it. What determines those choices? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:21 AM Katlaughing- Thanks for the support. You know, as an atheist, it's hard sometimes to stick up for other people's deeply held religious beliefs. However, when they are in the minority and are being bullied or otherwise discriminated against, I have this weird need to try to defend them. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:30 AM The Muslims are determinimg what is proper behavior for others and are intolerant. And I meant to say why don't they make asses of themselves like the Muslims do? I think they are tolerant and do not force their extremeisim on others. This is especially glaring because the Muslims were originally Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: katlaughing Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:43 AM Oh, and that isn't anything any Christians, or whatever brand of religion you choose, but esp. one's which are in the majority in a given situation, have ever tried to do, right, Dickey? What a bunch of nonsense. Charley, you are welcome.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 29 Apr 07 - 11:23 AM Ron Olesko asked: Show of hands - how many people thought Don Imus got the punishment he deserved for calling the Rutgers womens basketball team "nappy headed hos"? Yes. If you you think his firing was justified, do you feel that the charges against the student who left the sandwich was also justified? No. If you did not answer "yes" to both questions or "no" to both questions, how do see a difference? Ron, three big differences: 1. Imus, a media millionaire, has been engaging in this sort of thing for a L-O-O-N-G time. He's had warnings and slaps on the wrist (in the form of short suspensions) multiple times, but was always allowed back for commercial reasons. So he's had his bite. 2. He's (allegedly) an adult, but engages in this juvenile sort of willful offensive action because it makes him and the network money. 3. He engaged in this unprovoked hostility in that "bully pulpit", network television, reaching thousands, perhaps millions. On the other hand, 1. What I've read about the kid offender doesn't suggest that he had any particular offensive background, any more than any other kid. 2. He is, after all a kid, and seems to me to have involved himself in a kiddish prank. Blameworthy, yes, but worthy of more than school discipline? No. 3. His isolated act (prior to the media and official notice taken) was in the "observation" of at most a couple hundred other students and faculty, if indeed that many would have been aware of it without the vast overreaction. Two entirely different matters, Ron. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Midchuck Date: 29 Apr 07 - 11:37 AM Imus was punished by the free market. One is free to speak as one wishes. If one does so on commercial media, those who are offended are free to refuse to purchase the products of those who sponsor such speech, and to let the sponsors know why. The sponsors are then free to withdraw their advertising because their being associated with the offensive speech hurts sales rather than helping. The media are then free to take whatever action they need to in order to keep their advertising. The kid involved (assuming the truth of the whole story) was punished by government. My question: In countries where Muslims are a majority, how much attention is paid to respect for the feelings and rights of non-Muslims? Isn't there a double standard here? Peter |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Metchosin Date: 29 Apr 07 - 12:12 PM Oh hell, when they figure out where all the melamine from China has gone, nobody in North America will be eating pork. LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:10 PM My question: In countries where Muslims are a majority, how much attention is paid to respect for the feelings and rights of non-Muslims? Isn't there a double standard here? Yes, there is. The Australians have the right idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM Midchuck - I agree there is a difference in the punishments - one being a free market decision as you noted, the other involves government. What I was really trying to address is attitudes. Good points from Uncle Dave O, although I personally disagree when you say they are ENTIRELY different matters. Not at all, they are very similar when you boil it down. If you forget about the differences in scenarios and look at the reaction of people when it comes to differences of race and religion, I still question why people feel it is okay to joke about one but not the other. The more I think about this issue, the more I am trying to separate these differences. Granted that Imus had a history of saying such things (which in my mind makes the sudden change in policy more reprehensible on the part of CBS. You can't keep a blind eye and then suddenly switch only when it is favorable to your pocket without admitting your reasons.), and I do think the punishment was harsh for the student. What I was getting at in all of this, was OUR attitudes. There seems to be a few people who do not seem to have a problem with ridiculing Muslims but feel incensed about Imus and his supposed jokes about race. Even noting that there is perception that Muslims do not tolerate mocking of their religion. Yet when we say they make "asses" of themselves, what does that say about us? What moral code do we subscribe to when we believe in an eye for an eye? We live in a society that tries to celebrate diversity - so long as it doesn't interfere with our lives. Of course that goes for both sides, but I think it is unfair to perpetuate stereotypes of extremists as representing the whole. I think we have forgotten how to separate action from intent. Did Imus mean to hurt those women? Did that student really mean to hurt fellow students? Were they both ignorant of the ramifications of their actions? Should they be taught? Knee jerk reactions gets us into the problems that we face. I wish I knew what the long term answer would be. Perhaps it will be when generations finally die off and new ideas take hold. No one is born with hatred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:18 PM What part of the phrase "hate crime" don't you undertand? Note that the expression "hate crime" consists of TWO words, "hate" and "crime". Taking the noun first, I assert that one cannot call placing (or tossing) a ham sandwich or a ham steak on another student's lunch table a crime. "Teasing" is too mild, without a doubt. Misbehavior, I suppose might fit. Gross impoliteness, certainly. And I'll accept "insult". Even bullying, maybe. But "crime", hardly. Now, the adjective, referring to the source of the action. Nothing I've read about this incident requires a reading of "hate" as the motivator. "Arrogance", "group friction", or other descriptors, possibly. In my youth I saw worse behavior even against students or groups who were not even held in particularly low esteem. And for a "hate crime" you have to have a crime motivated by hate. Here we don't appear to have either of those terms justified. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: katlaughing Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:33 PM Ron, I don't think old generations dying will do much unless there is more education. One may not be born with hate, but one can certainly be born into hate, which is then perpetuated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:31 PM It is not within the school's authority to adjudicate crime, though. They are merely required to report incidents. There might be some among us who would say the principal should not even report the incident, even in a town where the big news had been the throwing of a pig's head into a mosque attended by Somali immigrants. We don't know, though, exactly what the school is required to report. What fascinates me far more about this story, though, is that some whacky web sites, and even an off-kilter but widely distributed entity such as Fox, would and could so successfully create a windstorm of outrage over such a minor incident. A kid who was doing nothing more than eating his lunch at school has provided proof, nationally and internationally, that we just won't put up with "their" crap anymore. It's quite bizarre, really, and disturbing. Excerpt from SunJournal.com : "Fox has figured out, from the calls we've gotten, that they've made a big mistake," Wessler said. "This is a wake-up call that the level of hate and anger, among a small population, is vibrant," he added. Levesque said he was bothered not only that the parody took aim at a sensitive issue in Lewiston, but also that Fox and others reported the information as fact without checking. The national media, Levesque said, sees information posted online and "uses it as gospel." In this case, reporting false information is getting in the way of the city and the school's continued work to build community understanding and tolerance for immigrants, said Phil Nadeau, Lewiston's assistant city administrator. The parodied news account cast a false impression of an overwhelmingly tolerant city and its population, Nadeau said, and of the Somali population in particular. "The last thing [the Somali immigrants] want is to be above the fold" of a front page or featured on the evening news, Nadeau said. Watching the parody and news reports unfold Tuesday, Levesque said is proof media "is interested in entertaining and playing on people's emotions," which gets in the way of building community relations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:47 PM Dicky- Just maybe if you were living in my community I would make an affort to understand why you are so intolerant. I find people like you a puzzle, and sometimes dangerous. Please seek counseling. Or bugger off! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 30 Apr 07 - 10:02 AM The follow-up on the gentleman, Brent Mathews, who thought it was a great joke to roll a pig's head into a Mosque in Lewiston, Maine, is that he called the police on his cellphone while in a mall parking lot saying he was there with a semiautomatic pistol. After the police surrounded his car he shot himself. His friends claim that he was a real great guy who did have some issues. He was always up to pranks in high school, loved to play with kids, and spent hours caring for a friend who was hospitalized. It's true that on his MySpace Website he wrote such things as "happiness is a warm AK-47" and "Welcome to America, now either speak English or leave." It's also true that he was fired from his Lewiston Public Works job after shouting a sexual slur at a woman driver who failed to stop for him. But according to his friends he was a man who was full of fun! The ham sandwich incident does not rise to that level of "hate crime" but it has potential. I do find it curious that some of the above posters empathise with such bigots. But maybe you think you're just having great fun baiting people such as me. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: DougR Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:07 PM Headline in local newspaper should have read: "PC RUNS AMOK"! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM I wonder what would have happened if the kid left a sandwich made from a horses ass in front of Republican? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:48 PM "Oh, and that isn't anything any Christians, or whatever brand of religion you choose, but esp. one's which are in the majority in a given situation, have ever tried to do, right, Dickey? What a bunch of nonsense." I really can't understand this statement. Are you saying Muslims are more tolerant than Jews or Christians? A little less sarcasm would make your statement more clearer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:55 PM Who the fuck cares who is more tolerant???????? What difference does it make? For once in your life, put yourself in someone elses shoes. You have a 14 year old student from another country in your school. He thinks he has friends. Someone then does something to offend you and your religion. In this case it was putting a ham sandwich in front of a student when you know it will upset him. The only thing that happened was the kid was suspended. His parents support the suspension. Their is a lesson learned. The PC police appear to be everyone that complains any action was taken. Grow a set. Use come compassion. Teach your children a lesson that you never learned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM The Muslims are determinimg what is proper behavior for others and are intolerant. Dickey, I think that is a fair point. Apparently there is a stealthy rise in Britain of Sharia courts although the Muslim Council of Britain opposes the idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 30 Apr 07 - 02:01 PM Back to the original "offence". This was a form of bullying and should be treated as such - nothing more, nothing less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 30 Apr 07 - 02:04 PM "This was a form of bullying and should be treated as such - nothing more, nothing less." And that is the way it was treated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Sorcha Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:06 PM Good. Discussion over now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:29 PM I am really not a religous person but neither am I un-religous. I tolerate what ever other people want to believe as long as it does not harm me. Sooner or later it will be declared a hate crime to say ham sandwich where a Muslim can hear it. Then ham sandwiches will be outlawed lest a Muslim might see someone eating one. Then pigs will be outlawed lest someone makes a ham. It's a slippery slope and someday PC will paralyze all of us. When I was in school, we called each other buskwheat, dago, whop, jew, red neck, jive white honkey, whatever, punched each other in the arm and laughed about it. It was detante or solidarity. Yes, were are all Americans regardless of where our ancestors came from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ebbie Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:42 PM "When I was in school, we called each other buskwheat, dago, whop, jew, red neck, jive white honkey, whatever, punched each other in the arm and laughed about it." Oh. That explains you. *g* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 30 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM Like I said earlier, we need to wait for the older generations to die off and hope the young generations get a proper education. In addition to calling people names, there was a time when it was okay to have separate water fountains, deny women the right to vote, and burn crosses. Some people can't see beyond the ham sandwich. Perhaps there is some resentment for being called names in their earlier years and these people now feel a need to have that tradition carried on. It has NOTHING to do with being PC. It has everything to do with acting responsible and using your head. Perhaps some people are still reading the parody and have no clue what actually transpired. There was a lesson learned with these students, and hopefully those students won't long onto Mudcat for advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Donuel Date: 30 Apr 07 - 04:11 PM Great big bags of pig blood were swinging back and forth as the Isreali bus lumbered in downtown Jerusalem. Any suicide bombers on the bus have the moral dilemma of dying in a puddle of pig blood if they pulled their fuse, which would deny them access to Allah's heaven, virgins and the whole after life schmeer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM Doug- I've missed you. What you been up to? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Sorcha Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM OK, Ron....but the Older Generation.....who is actually educating the younger generation? Well, doh, the older one....and what are they learning????? To toss pig heads and ham sandwiches. Hell of an idea there, Don! You could patent it and get rich! But, would Jews (of any stripe) ride in the Pig Blood Bus? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:31 PM "who is actually educating the younger generation?" Teachers, peers, media. Yes, parents play a role. I do think that younger generations do a better job of thinking and using logic than we did. I happen to live in the same town I grew up in. I had moved out when I got married, and when it came time to move back I did not want to return becaause I remembered the narrow minded thinking that I grew up with in a town that was overwhelmingly white and Catholic. I was happy to discover that change had occured, and the town is now very diverse. With exposure to so many cultures and religions, I see a tolerance and understanding that my generation could not comprehend. So, while it will never go away completely, there is reason to hope that it can change and that ignorance is not hereditary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 30 Apr 07 - 11:32 PM Anybody who sees a parallel between the ham sandwich incident and the Imus situation is being deliberately obtuse. Kids have teased and been teased forever--and it doesn't look likely to stop anytime soon. A Jewish kid who keeps kosher wouldn't be any more enthusiastic about a ham sandwich than the Moslem child. Reading "hate crime" into it ridicules the whole idea of "hate crime". Imus' remark wasn't a "hate crime" either--but one in a series of similar remarks. That was his stock in trade--and it's good he's been made to realize there may be a price to pay with that approach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 30 Apr 07 - 11:39 PM "Teachers, peers, media. Yes, parents play a role." Schools have the kids for about 16% of the year. The other 84% they are in the charge of parents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Bonecruncher Date: 01 May 07 - 12:59 AM What a load of twaddle! Why were students of Somali or any other race, religion or sect to discriminate themselves by sitting at a particular table and then claim it as their own? Students, and others, should be encouraged to integrate. If some person wishes to continue believing a fairy-story that is promulgated as a "religion" by those who wish to control, then that is the privilege of the individual. It is not for others to have to comply with the mores and fetishes of those beliefs. If the "offending" student had sat with vegetarians, or eaten ham in front of Catholics on a Friday, would there have been the same commotion? Why have Westerners to abstain from drinking alcohol while in a country with a Muslim religion? Those same Muslims are here getting pXXsed on a Saturday night in the discos and bars of European or other nations! Would I be afforded full council support to build a Christian church in a Muslim country? What is sauce for the goose......... Colyn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 01 May 07 - 07:29 AM One of the lessons kids learn in school is which battles are worth fighting. If the Moslem child's parents told him that the ham sandwich was worth protesting over, they gave him spectacularly bad counsel. And if the principal took action based just on this incident, he or she made a stupid decision-- and made his or her own job needlessly much harder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 01 May 07 - 07:41 AM I would like to know when the everything in the entire world will be PC? Where is the end? As soon a one horrible example is abolished, another pops up. I don't see an end to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Wolfgang Date: 01 May 07 - 08:02 AM What's at stake is the right to insult and cause offence (from THE GUARDIAN) When five young Muslim Turks tortured and killed three Christian publishers recently, that was a hate crime. But not this. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 01 May 07 - 08:34 AM Colyn, Ron, Dicky- Let me personally invite you to come to Lewiston, Maine, and provide your advice directly to those concerned. The result may be a revelation, or not. The KKK did pay a couple of visits in previous years, so the Lewiston folks are pretty much prepared to deal with most anything. They may not be perfect but they do try to be fair and let everyone express their views. Your views are probably not as extreme as those of the KKK, given that the KKK is hardly a libertarian organization. Ron- At what point should minorities stand up for their rights? Apparently the "ham sandwich" doesn't trigger your thresehold. Would "name-calling" do it for you? How about spitting in their faces? How about sexual harrassment? Dickey- Why would anyone expect an end for PC monitoring? As long as there are minorities there is a potential for discrimination. Sometimes as in the Balkins the categories may be submerged for generations only to resurface in bloody civil war. Sometimes the differences are only appreciated as differences, without discrimination. It's a weird world. But don't you think it's unrealistic to expect such issues to end, especially if you don't want people to try to moderate "unacceptable" behavior? Colyn- You know some countries with majority Moslem populations actually tolerate Christians, and even Jews. Others are as blatantly discriminatory as you may imagine. But before we condemn them or decide to bomb them into the dark ages, we may want to re-examine our own level of tolerance. "Twaddle" it ain't. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Liz the Squeak Date: 01 May 07 - 08:56 AM Years ago at a St Patricks night 'do' at the folk club, the owner, the traditional jovial Irishman, presented us with food. I was sitting with my friend Sue, as he placed on the table a plate of lovingly prepared pigs trotters - for a vegetarian and a Jew! Oh, and 100! LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 01 May 07 - 09:57 AM We're not talking about the right to look at editorial cartoons without mass protests by Muslims. We're talking about the right for us to "stand up" to a little boy who just wants to be an American. From what I've read, he probably wants to go to shool, have friends, eat lunch in the cafeteria. The right to throw ham at Muslim children is not a cause I would invest a lot off emotional energy into, even if it is packaged as "Freedom of Speech" or rejection of "appeasement." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 May 07 - 10:45 AM Heaven preserve us from the mass media. I would seriously doubt anything I read in the press or saw on TV. I am sure the bare bones of what is being presented here is true - But what is missing? Unless we talk to everyone concerned I doubt if we will ever get to the truth here. The Guardian (UK paper) is one of the few that does seem to have a modicum of integrity. It presented an article some time ago that completely demolished the stories reported in the 'popular press' about councils wanting to ban Christmas, complaining of St Georges flags etc, etc. If I an dig it out I will provide a link. Every time stories appear about Moslem intolerance the press are fuelling what will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Do you not think that the press is Iran and Iraq do exactly the same thing to wind up their local people? The only difference between the masked man on the back of a Toyota pickup with an AK47 shouting 'Death to the West' and the men sat around bars in New York and London tutting at such stories is one of scale and culture. Just my 2 pen'urth. If that's OK with you that is... :Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 01 May 07 - 11:05 AM "Ron- At what point should minorities stand up for their rights? Apparently the "ham sandwich" doesn't trigger your thresehold. Would "name-calling" do it for you? How about spitting in their faces? How about sexual harrassment?" What are you reading Charlie?? When did I ever say that they should not stand up for their rights?????????????????????????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 01 May 07 - 11:06 AM "Anybody who sees a parallel between the ham sandwich incident and the Imus situation is being deliberately obtuse." Anyone who doesn't see a parallel is playing spin doctor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: jacqui.c Date: 01 May 07 - 11:09 AM I don't think that it is so much the Muslims who are making a lot of these demands, rather than the western authorities, usually at local level, who seem to think that they know what wil be offensive to minority cultures. The fact that they so often get it wrong - and I know of one example of cabs not being allowed to fly the English flag at the time of the World Cup, my son being one of the drivers involved and being threatened with the loss of his cab licence if he did not comply - suggests that the diversity training so prevalent these days is really not doing the job, or that there are a lot of 'little Hitlers' out there just itching to make up their own rules based on political correctness. When I was eight I broke a front tooth. Until I was twelve the dentist could not put a crown in. When I went to a mixed Grammar school at the age of just eleven I was subjected to a great deal of teasing as a result, even from one of the teachers, who called me 'Toothy'. I do understand the effect of the teasing that goes on in schools - kids that age can be terribly cruel and there can be long lasting effects from that teasing. When it happened to me I didn't even think of reporting it or telling my parents. One just put up with it. These days there does seem to be more of a push to put a stop to bullying, which will occur, given the nature of children, however much we might want it to stop. Taking that as a given I think that what needs to be done is to clamp down on bullying as soon as it is known about. I'd like to know whether the child involved had had any previous history of being a bully or whether he had been bullied himself. In the case of a serial bully then maybe getting outside authorities involved might be the only way to make him understand the gravity of his acts, particularly if discussion with parents had not stopped him. If this was the first incident for this particular child it certainly sounds as if there has been an over reaction here, although maybe not on the part of the school. Hopefully the good that will come out of it is that this school will be well aware of the ramifications of that type of behaviour for the future. Bullying is bullying, whether it is taking a poke at someone else's religious beliefs or making fun of someone's appearance or disability. Bullys prey upon what they percieve as another's weekness for their own entertainment. Then you have those who stand back and enjoy the spectacle, whilst not actually taking an active part. In this case that includes the media, who have picked this up. None of them come out of this clean and I think that we would be foolish to think that it won't happen again and again, given human nature. Maybe all we can do is to be vigilant and nip in the bud any incident that looks as if it is going to be blown up in this way. That means that all of us have to be involved and not walk by on the other side of the street. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 01 May 07 - 11:49 AM Ron- Sorry if I puzzled you and any other Ron's except for "Ron Davies". I should be more specific. Ugh! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 01 May 07 - 12:15 PM Sorry! My apologies too. I guess I should not jump to conclusions!!! :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 01 May 07 - 11:39 PM Believe me, Charlie, it pains me to be on the same side as Dickey on anything--it's an unnatural act. But if you can't tell the difference between spitting in somebody's face and putting a ham sandwich in front of him, you need to think this through a bit more. This is so unlike you--you're usually a very clear thinker. Since I suspect you were a kid at one time, you might consider this: Kids need to feel they are not outsiders--that they belong. A great way to ensure that you are considered an outsider is to insist on special treatment. Protesting that you should not have a ham sandwich in front of you--when nobody else would complain--is asking for special treatment. And thereby making yourself an outsider--needlessly. Not smart. Look at what the boy said: "Before I felt like I fit in and everything was normal" That tells you what he wanted. He wanted to fit in. This is precisely the wrong way to do that. In fact, it will get you a reputation as a crybaby who needs adults to fight his battles--and an outsider. Since I was a once a child, I know this is true. And you may also recognize it. Anybody who would push the boy to protest the ham sandwich is doing him no favor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: jacqui.c Date: 02 May 07 - 10:11 AM It's actually quite surprising just how fine the line can be between what is considered a joke and an insult, even when the perpetrator is a so called adult. What may seem a jolly little jape to one person can be surprisingly hurtful to another if it hits a sensitivity. Unfortunately teenagers have not, in general, got to the point where they can think things through to the ultimate conclusion, nor are they really aware of just how much their fun can impinge on others. Mostly, IMHO these kids are not being racist, sexist or any other type of ist - they are generally just performing for an audience of their peers and trying to make themselves look clever. The shame of it is that some people just never grow out of that habit and, even in their so called mature years, don't get that line, or don't consider that it should apply to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 02 May 07 - 10:27 PM C'mon Ron. It doesn't hurt so bad does it? Back when that World Cup Soccer crap was so intense I saw someone say that in Germany, Brits were carrying around model WW2 fighter planes and pushing them into the faces of the Germans while making airplane noises. I think that was rather rude but war was not declared over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 03 May 07 - 03:40 PM I often wonder why people with religious beliefs that show the least tolerance for the differing beliefs of others are the first to claim offense at perceived insults to their own faith. While the ham sandwich incident was an ignorant act to describe it as an act of hate goes way overboard. Tolerance and respect sometimes must be earned and showing tolerance as well as expecting it may be the best road to travel. So many people have died fighting over the centuries because of stupid religious beliefs that a ham sandwich is hardly the most important issue. In order for the world to live in peace and harmony religious bigotry from all sides must stop! The first step is to teach peace and tolerance in our schools without any religious interference in education. If this could be a worldwide goal of the UN it would at least be a starting point. |
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Subject: Words ADD: Star Belly Sneetches - Dr. Seuss From: beardedbruce Date: 03 May 07 - 03:50 PM Now, the Star-Belly Sneetches- Had bellies with stars. The Plain-Belly Sneetches-Had none upon thars. Those stars weren't so big. They were really so small. You might think such a thing wouldn't matter at all. But, because they had stars, all the Star-Belly Sneetches Would brag, "We're the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches. With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they'd snort "We'll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!" And whenever they met some, when they were out walking, They'd hike right on past them without even talking. When the Star-Belly children went out to play ball, Could a Plain- Belly get in the game…? Not at all. You only could play if your bellies had stars And the Plain-Belly children had none upon thars. When the Star-Belly Sneetches had frankfurter roasts Or picnics or parties or marshmallow toasts, They never invited the Plain-Belly Sneetches. They left them out cold, in the dark of the beaches. They kept them away. Never let them come near. And that's how they treated them year after year. Then ONE day, seems…while the Plain-Belly Sneetches Were moping and doping alone on the beaches, Just sitting there wishing their bellies had stars… A stranger zipped up in the strangest of cars! "My friends," he announced in a voice clear and keen, "My name is Sylvester McMonkey McBean. And I've heard of your troubles. I've heard you're unhappy. But I can fix that. I'm the Fix-it-Up Chappie. I've come here to help you. I have what you need. And my prices are low. And I work at great speed. And my work is one hundred per cent guaranteed! Then, quickly Sylvester McMonkey McBean Put together a very peculiar machine. And he said, "You want stars like a Star-Belly Sneetch…? My friends, you can have them for three dollars each!" "Just pay me your money and hop right aboard!" So they clambered inside. Then the big machine roared And it klonked. And it bonked. And it jerked. And it berked And it bopped them about. But the thing really worked! When the Plain-Belly Sneetches popped out, they had stars! They actually did. They had stars upon thars! Then they yelled at the ones who had stars at the start, "We're exactly like you! You can't tell us apart. We're all just the same, now, you snooty old smarties! And now we can go to your frankfurter parties." "Good grief!" groaned the ones who had stars at the first. "We're still the best Sneetches and they are the worst. But, now, how in the world will we know," they all frowned, "If which kind is what, or the other way round?" Then came McBean with a very sly wink. And he said, "Things are not quite as bad as you think. So you don't know who's who. That is perfectly true. But come with me, friends. Do you know what I'll do? I'll make you, again, the best Sneetches on beaches And all it will cost you is ten dollars eaches." "Belly stars are no longer in style," said McBean. "What you need is a trip through my Star-off Machine. This wondrous contraption will take off your stars So you won't look like Sneetches who have them on thars." And that handy machine Working very precisely Removed all the stars from their tummies quite nicely. Then, with snoots in the air, they paraded about And they opened their beaks and they let out a shout, "We know who is who! Now there isn't a doubt. The best kind of Sneetches are Sneetches without!" Then, of course, those with stars all got frightfully mad. To be wearing a star now was frightfully bad. Then, of course, old Sylvester McMonkey McBean Invited them into his star-off machine. Then, of course from THEN on, as you probably guess, Things really got into a horrible mess. All the rest of that day, on those wild screaming beaches, The fix-it-up Chappie kept fixing up Sneetches. Off again! On Again! In again! Out again! Through the machines they raced round and about again, Changing their stars every minute or two. They kept paying money. They kept running through Until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew Whether this one was that one…or that one was this one Or which one was what one …or what one was who. Then, when every last cent Of their money was spent, The Fix-it-Up Chappie packed up And he went. And he laughed as he drove In his car up the beach, "They never will learn. No. You can't teach a Sneetch!" But McBean was quite wrong. I'm quite happy to say That the Sneetches got really quite smart on that day, The day they decided that Sneetches are Sneetches And no kind of Sneetch is the best on the beaches That day, all the Sneetches forgot about stars And whether they had one, or not, upon thars. Dr. Suess |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 03 May 07 - 05:16 PM "The first step is to teach peace and tolerance in our schools without any religious interference in education. If this could be a worldwide goal of the UN it would at least be a starting point." That is, IMO, the second step. The first step is to teach it in homes, then the second step won't be necessary in a hundred years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 03 May 07 - 05:54 PM True Peace, if that would only be done! The problem with that though is that the teacher's (parent's) mind already has been corrupted with the dogma of their own beliefs, and that is passed to the next generation. Somehow a way must be found to break this cycle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 03 May 07 - 07:41 PM I have assiciated whit Jews who have the same religious beleifs about pork. They will eat just about anything including crabs at a gathering. [crabs are a scavenger animal and considered non-kosher or treif along with any shelfish or fish without fins and scales] They always say they "keep Kosher at home" and never stir up a ruckus over what is served to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 03 May 07 - 08:19 PM Keriste, how did the JEWS get in this now? I suppose someone will be along to blame THEM for the mess! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 03 May 07 - 10:33 PM Who let the Sneetches in? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 03 May 07 - 10:57 PM In fact, Peace, Jewish kids come off well in this--as far as we know they are not protesting ham sandwiches being put in front of them. They probably would ignore something like that--which is what it deserves--just push the sandwich to the end of the table and continue talking with your friends. Their attitude is much more sensible than that of the Moslem child--probably pushed by his parents--and amplified by the stupid move of the principal--which has blown this trivial incident way out of proportion. There is no reason that it ever should have had so much publicity that we should ever have heard of it. There is virtually no parallel with the Imus situation. The sandwich could be ignored--and should have been. The Imus situation should not be ignored--and it was not. The Imus remark was one of a series of remarks--I don't care if he was paid to "push the envelope"--he should have realized there was a boundary he could not cross. And he crossed it--again--he had done it several times before. Maybe CBS radio is also culpable. That does not let Imus off the hook. He signed the contract--he knew what he was walking into--and he can't complain financially--his stupid schtick has piled up enough so he can retire comfortably, to say the least, tomorrow. My sympathy for him is limited. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: mg Date: 04 May 07 - 12:41 AM We don't know enough about the situation to assume it was harmless...it depends how it was done, was it truly just leaving something there? Or was it done in a threatening way, as in I know how to push your buttons and I will..and if the child on the receiving had been traumatized by war etc...who knows what went through his or her head...Trust me, a determined 14 year old, girl or boy, can transmit a whole lot of information through a ham sandwich. I don't know if that was the case here or not. It makes me recall the days when Catholics were scared to go to public schools, and one real reason was the lunch situation..fear of being served, and somehow being made to eat, meat on Friday. We could be around it , we just couldn't eat it...I am sure there were cases of kids being held down by other kids and made to eat it...And there was also the fear of just the temptation....faith was taken quite seriously by us in those days, and still is by many people.... We can't accomodate each and every religious rule that people come here with, but we can't deliberately insult them either...mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 04 May 07 - 03:40 AM Mary-- We only know what we read. I would say UPI is a pretty good source, wouldn't you? Fox is despicable--I think reasonable people should agree. The approach they took in mocking the "ham sandwich" incident is particularly revolting. The fact remains that "a public forum held by the city's Sun Journal" had to be "halted because of the overt hostility on display"--sparked by this incident, with others in the background. It's also obvious that rolling a pig's head into a Somali mosque is totally unacceptable. So why the "overt hostility"? I think it's obvious that one of the main reasons is a perception among many Americans who've been here for a while that recent immigrants are not willing to do what other immigrants have always done--assimilate. If you doubt this look at some of the rather intemperate remarks about Mexicans in the US--in Mudcat, yet. Both the people who rail against Mexicans who "refuse to learn English" and those who resent the Somalis in Maine are dead wrong. I think we can agree on that. I also suspect--though I have absolutely no evidence--that local Maine boys have been killed in Iraq and that the sight of Somalis makes certain people in Maine think of Iraqi insurgents--or Osama. Look at the treatment given Sikhs right after 9-11 in the US--just for wearing a turban. So there are definitely bigots in the story. But if you ask for special treatment, you are playing right into the hands of the bigots. If you disagree, exactly why? And saying you are "hurt, offended" by a ham sandwich being placed on a table "where Somali students were eating" is asking for trouble. As I said, do you think a Jewish student who keeps kosher would have reacted the same way? Not if he's smart--and gets good counsel from parents etc. The Somali boy got wretched advice. And the school superintendent has blown this incident way out of proportion--"one student was suspended and more disciplinary action was possible". Suspended? Talk to the offending student if you like. Only if that student has a history of much worse should a suspension be considered. "Hate crime"? The sandwich does not rise to this level. But the overreaction stokes hate. And so does Fox. But as I said earlier, anybody who would push the student to protest the ham sandwich is doing him no favor. Now he's the center of a firestorm--and has established himself as the perfect outsider. When all he wanted to do was "fit in". This is not the way to do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 04 May 07 - 10:44 AM It would have gone better for the kid if he lied, sure. I think we can all agree on that too. It would have spared him the contempt and ridicule of the Dickey Davies duo and hundreds of anti-immigrant websites. Doesn't change the fact that he was just sitting there eating his lunch. His "failure to lie" was not a crime justifying this storm of outrage generatd only by anti-immigrant types and no one else. (If you think the parody-as-fact information is wrong, why do you perpetuate the "ham sandwich in a baggie" part of the joke, which is the primary thrust of the mocking and ridicule.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 04 May 07 - 09:20 PM Heric-- Please do yourself the favor of reading the UPI report--did my first sentence escape you? I made up nothing--check Mickeyy 191's post of 28 Apr 2007 8:20 PM. Exactly why is UPI not a reliable source? Then you can simmer down from your high dudgeon of the" Dickey Davies duo"--(rank slander, by the way--and therefore not your usual style.) He and I both believe the incident has been blown wildly out of proportion-- a ham sandwich should not be a cause celebre. There the similarities end. I've said that neither the anti-Mexican nor the anti-Somali attitudes are justified--did Dickey say this? And exactly where is my "contempt" for the Somali boy--direct quotes please. I'm sorry he made a bad choice--due to bad advice. If I have contempt, it's for the superintendent--who made a trivial incident something much worse--and helped nobody by doing so--including himself. Then perhaps we can discuss the issue without wild accusations. I'd be particularly curious to have you tell us how protesting the sandwich--sorry, that's what UPI says--has helped the boy. As I said earlier, one of the things you learn in school is what battles to fight. Do you deny this? The choice he made was not a good one--and the superintendent made it worse. As I said earlier, there's absolutely no reason this incident should ever have been considered so significant that we would even hear of it. It should have been at most an affair within the school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 04 May 07 - 09:40 PM heric-- One more thing. If you would do just a tiny bit of research, you would find that I am in fact one of the most outspoken Mudcatters in favor of immigrants' rights. I have come out more than once for a path to citizenship for all illegal immigrants--without any having to return to their supposed "country of origin" for "touch-back"-- the latest slogan of the Neanderthals who bleat about "amnesty". I am also in favor of driver's licenses for all illegals--prohibiting licenses is not going to stop them from driving--and I'd rather have people on the road with licenses. And I'm dead against the brilliant suggestion recently made to revoke the automatic citizenship of all children born in the US--including children of illegals. You might check my thread "Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend"--in which I argue that if the Democrats had sense they would band together in support of immigrants' rights--not least since it is a classic wedge issue to split the Republicans. But the fact remains that a ham sandwich is not where to draw the battle lines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Donuel Date: 04 May 07 - 09:44 PM Sorcha: the bags of pig blood aboard Isreali buses to deter muslim suicide bombers IS A FACT - not a fiction or invention of mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 04 May 07 - 09:44 PM Many years ago a wise judge--I know that may seem an oxymoron to some people--decided that some kids who'd defaced a beit knesset with spray-painted swastikas should find out the magnitude of what they'd done. With the help of the rebbe, they had to research and do a fairly large research essay on the history of the Jews with emphasis on the Holocaust. If I recall correctly, there were four youths involved. They had two months and they did as the judge ordered. The tale does not end with any of them converting to the Jewish faith, but of their own volition they requested the right to address the people whose house of assembly they'd desecrated. Wearing yarmulkes they stood in front of the people they'd offended and apologized. There are times a ham sandwich is more than a ham sandwich. There are times when people make really stupid choices. There is certainly enough blame to go around. And unless the tone changes on this thread, the same will be said of it. Reason vacates the mind when emotion governs the gut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Donuel Date: 04 May 07 - 11:02 PM eloquently said but I still think emotion needs to govern the gut, if only to motivate a reasonable mind to action. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 05 May 07 - 12:47 AM Well it is strange Ron because I have no particular affection for Muslims and I entirely agree that no appeasement of Islamo-fascists is necessary e.g in the cartoon fracas. But I don't like Fox or the lesser sites stirring up a hunt for such enemies where they don't exist. The weird thing now is you and I screaming as to what a not-big-deal (very small deal) it is, and yet for opposite reasons. I think we agree that we don't know the specifics. I read a lot of it and I don't have the initiative to confirm which is the UPI report, but the way I remember it is some louts tossed a paper bag with an unwrapped ham steak in the center of the lunch table, then smugly waited for one of the Somali boys to reach in. To me that was the tosser's way of reaffirming his approval of the pig head incident, but I could be reading too much into it. I agree that the kids should not be little whiners for any reason, but we don't really know the extent to which they were. And we do know they didn't start any of this. At age 15 I had not yet perfected my Clint Eastwood demeanor, and I was born here. I just see the burden more on the kids who started it, I guess. Peace I want some of those little eloquence pills you're taking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 05 May 07 - 01:17 AM LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 05 May 07 - 02:07 PM heric- I'm not saying the Moslem child was a whiner--I don't think he was----just that his reaction--probably advocated by his parents--was not helpful--to himself. The report (not Fox) quoted him as saying how much better things were before the incident--that all he wanted to do was "fit in"--and up to then he thought he did. If you want to fit in, you don't want to call attention to yourself--and that's what protesting the sandwich did--in spades, thanks to the stupid overreaction of the superintendent. Obviously the kid who put the sandwich on the table was a young lout--no argument there---who just wanted to get a rise out of the" foreigner". Unfortunately, he got one. A much better idea, as I said earlier--and what a Jewish child would likely have done--is to push the sandwich down to the end of the table, or throw it out. Without a word. And then go back to talking with your friends. And drop the subject. A sandwich may be sometimes "more than a sandwich"--but it doesn't have to be if you don't overreact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST Date: 18 May 07 - 04:55 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 18 May 07 - 05:15 AM I've really messed up this time. I started another thread because I thought this had been deleted for some reason. I'll copy my post and hope that a clone will delete the duplicate. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Although I hadn't posted to the thread about the Somali boy who was bullied by another student with a ham sandwich, I was following it with great interest. I found it interesting that, with the exception of heric and a couple of others, most of you don't seem to understand how harmful bullying can be. I just want to say that in order for children to learn, they must be in an emotionally safe environment. If they feel teased, picked on, threatened, de-valued, ostracized or bullied, they are emotionally unsafe and are so busy dealing with their feelings that they can't learn. District policies vary but I would say that any kid who intentionally taunts another child should be reported to the principal. What the principal does with that information depends on district policy. I find it odd that some of you are seemingly insensitive to the needs of a Somali child who probably came to the U.S. via a refugee camp. Do you have any idea what these kids have been through or the culture shock that they are experiencing? Sitting quietly in a lunchroom with non-Muslims would be a feat in itself. I'm surprised the Somali kid wasn't pushing his way to the front of the line so he could be fed. Thats what refugee children have had to do to survive. I have no sympathy for the little jerk who threw the ham sandwich on the table in front of the Somali Muslim. It was a deliberate act of cruelty. I'm glad the bully's parents backed the suspension by the principal. Some of you think that because you were teased as a child, its O.K. for kids to tease and bully today. Its not! Alot of things used to be acceptable in the past but that doesn't mean they were right. Past actions are no justification for today's bullies. You can't have it both ways. Either schools protect all children or they protect none of them. You decide. Ron - I'm sure that you are right about the response of most American Jews. If however, the Jewish boy had come from a refugee camp (or any other camp) in the desert where he had to fight for food, I think he might have been affected in a similar manner. Keep in mind, the Somali boy was probably adjusting to many cultural differences. His response was perfectly normal. He just wanted to fit in. Why compare the Somali to a Jew on the basis of ham alone? There is really no comparison. Muslims are considered the enemy by many in the U.S. Somalis are usually black. This child was probably learning English. Your comparison is not really about a Somali child, its about your need to show that Jews are in some way superior. I'm disappointed to learn how arrogant you are. Have you ever experienced war, hunger or homelessness as a child? btw - I doubt very much if it was the Somali kid or his parents who complained. It was probably other kids who witnessed the act of unkindness and reported it to a teacher. Good for them! Any so-called news agency who chose to distort this story and make it seem like Muslims demanding special treatment should be called to task. The real story was about bullying, the hate crime was committed by FOX. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 19 May 07 - 09:39 PM I hope I didn't kill this thread. Carry on, catters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 20 May 07 - 12:52 AM I am not religious or a watcher of religious shows but this morning all I could find for my grand daushter to wach was a religious show about Sampson with puppets. After it went off the TV was left on and I heard several lessons being taught about tollerance and sharing. For example two kids were given three pancakes and one was mad because the other got two and what to do in such a situation. I thought how odd it is that Palestinian TV is broadcasting shows with a Mickey Mouse like character teaching little kids to hate and how to get back at their "enemies" and Christians are doing the opposite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 20 May 07 - 04:41 AM Oops, Dickey, you're off topic again and spreading more of your hate for Palestinians, and Muslims, in general. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 20 May 07 - 11:08 AM Dianavan-- The Somali boy said all he wanted to do was "fit in"--and he said that before the incident he felt he did. My point is that making a big deal of the sandwich, especially done by the superintendent, is the worst possible way for him to fit in. Why is this not so? Do you think the Somali boy thinks he "fits in" now? If not, why not? Interesting that "arrogance" seems to consist of disagreeing with you. You may be able to find examples of arrogance----but this is not one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Dickey Date: 20 May 07 - 11:27 AM Dianavan: I think you are the one that spreads hate as evidenced by your pro Iranian, Pro Hezbollah anti Jewish, givem em shit attitudes. I think the Pallestians are victioms of their so called government and used as tools to try get revenge in Israel. If they would settle down and be peaceful, thwy could attain their own soveriegnty. But that is not the objective of their "leaders". The real objective is to dominate Israel and all of the middle east and possibly the world. You will no doubt disagree vehemently and try to support it by calling me hatefull, stupid lazy etc. like you have in the past. If you really want to make your point, present it in factually rather than emotionally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: mg Date: 20 May 07 - 03:21 PM Well, the Palestinians are victims of a whole lot of land "transfers", water appropriations, etc. It's a horrible situation all the way around. I don't believe the Palestinians want to dominate the world but maybe I'm not reading this right. I guarantee if you met some in person you would like them a lot. They are wonderful people in a terrible situation. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Peace Date: 20 May 07 - 04:04 PM You now know why our elders always said "Don't play with your food." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 20 May 07 - 07:38 PM Dickey - This is not about the Palestinians Ron - Sorry if I misunderstood you. I don't think it was the Somali kid who called attention to the incident. The media called attention to the incident and to the kid. If I were the kid in question, I'd find it hard to fit in, too. The entire situation focussed attention on him. He was just expressing his feelings. You simply cannot compare his feelings or responses to what a Jew would do in the same situation. Most Jewish kids in public schools are not new to the school system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 20 May 07 - 09:02 PM Dianavan- I would think that most kids in the Somali boy's place would feel intimidated--and NOT want to draw attention to themselves. I would have felt intimidated--I'll tell you that. And said nothing. Somebody, however, told the boy it would be a good idea to protest the sandwich. And that person did the boy no favor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 20 May 07 - 09:43 PM Dianavan- You're spot on in this debate, and that's not easy to do when you are not a resident of the community that all of you "from away" are talking about. Ron is off-base on this incident and Dickey... oh well, why waste time trying to even reason with him. Life for the Somalies in Lewiston is not going to be easy but it's more promising than in Somalia, and they're willing to work and learn. Fortunately there are enough people in greater Lewiston to encourage them in this process. If I had the power I'd be temped to transport some Mudcatters to Somalia and watch how well they adjusted to the society they found themselves in. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 20 May 07 - 09:45 PM "I don't think it's nice, you throwin that ham." ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 20 May 07 - 09:53 PM Charlie- So life in Lewiston is not easy for a Somali. This sort of reaction to a ham sandwich does not make it any easier. And, I repeat, the boy only wanted to "fit in"--did you not notice this? How did protesting the sandwich help in this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 20 May 07 - 10:27 PM Ron- Geez, haven't you learned that sometimes one gains respect for standing up to "jokers"? Where did you go to school? And, yes, sometimes it labels you as a "complainer" and you lose. It's a tough call if you're a minority. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST Date: 21 May 07 - 08:53 PM Charlie-- I agree with you about standing up to jokers. But that would mean in this case: either ignoring the sandwich, putting it very obviously in the trash, or more effectively--waving it around and asking loudly "Is anybody missing this?"--or something similar. Not seeking adults to punish the alleged miscreant--that just confirms that you need adults to fight your battles--you're helpless by yourself. I would have thought you'd learned this in high school or before. This boy said he only wanted to "fit in"--therefore was not about to fight back in the above way. I'm still waiting for anybody who thinks protesting the sandwich was a good idea to say exactly how that approach would help him "fit in". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,Ron Davies Date: 21 May 07 - 08:55 PM Lost my cookie--but I suspect you could guess who wrote the last posting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 22 May 07 - 01:11 AM Ron - Can you show me where anyone has claimed that it was the Somali boy who protested the sandwich? He may have stated that he just wanted to fit in, much later - in other words, after the fact. Anyone could have reported the incident to a teacher or the principal. The media made a big deal and the kid says, gee, I just wanted to fit in. This is his fault? heric - Too funny. You are absolutely right, there are many ways a kid could respond to the sandwich. In my high school it would have meant a fist fight or a food fight. I'm sure the Somali kid was simply mortified. He probably wanted to slither under the table and disappear. The point is, the Somali kid had absolutely no cultural reference. He would not have the faintest idea how to handle such an insult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Charley Noble Date: 22 May 07 - 09:12 AM Well, I for one think this thread is settling down to describing the reality of the situation, or as close as one can from away. There are outstanding questions but they're unlikely to be resolved in our lifetime, even on this forum. Things in Lewiston will get better or worse, but at least there is evidence that people there are trying to intervene in a positive fashion. Ron- There is a danger that if the Somali student had stood up for himself in a traditional fashion the non-Somali student would have had a knife in his vitals. I'm pleased that no knife work was involved. A threat response by the Somali student, on the other hand, might well have been ignored by the non-Somali student who would not likely realize that the issue could become a mortal one. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: Ron Davies Date: 22 May 07 - 09:26 PM Dianavan--try the first posting: "Before I felt like I fit in". Said after the fact--of course--but fairly obviously speaking to his desires at the time of the incident. Charlie--there has to be a middle ground between a knife in the ribs and an appeal to the authorities for something to be done about the sandwich, the latter of which will be perceived as needing adults to fight your battles. It seems fairly reasonable that middle way would be to say nothing--except to your parents when you get home. Obviously the main culprit in the sorry affair is Fox News--for exploiting it. But the superintendent played right into their hands--by overreacting. Talk to the young lout responsible for the sandwich--but that should have been the end--unless, as I said earlier, he has a record of such actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 23 May 07 - 09:44 AM what sandwich? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 23 May 07 - 04:57 PM "Before I felt like I fit in" He probably said that because he had never before been ridiculed or bullied in the school. That doesn't mean that he told anyone of the situation when it occurred. Like I said, anyone could have reported the incident. The principal suspended the bully with the approval of his parents. This tells me it wasn't the first incident. To expect the boy to "laugh it off" at the time is asking too much. It makes me wonder what he did do? When FOX asked him how he felt about it, I guess he should have said, "What sandwich?" - (thanks, heric) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: SINSULL Date: 16 Jul 08 - 05:26 PM I am still trying to figure out why a woman is being charged with murder for pretending to be a teenage boy and courting and dropping (hard) a girl who then committed suicide. If a teenage boy had done the same (they often do)and the girl committed suicide, would he now be charged with murder? Are teenagers therefore to be held hostage by a threat of suicide? I don't get it. It was a mean thing to do...but murder? High schoolers play mean pranks all the time. A trip to the principal, a public apology, maybe a suspension. Bringing in the police is overkill. Which reminds me - what happened with the man who bought a lemonade for his son/nephew and was arrested for child neglect? Anyone know? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: heric Date: 16 Jul 08 - 10:48 PM And while we're at it how about the air marshalls who gunned down that paranoid guy escaping a plane in Miami? ( . . . speaking about bringing in the police as overkill.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 16 Jul 08 - 11:03 PM Not a prank by a fellow student, but by an adult - a parent, with demonstrated intent... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ham Sandwich Debacle From: GUEST Date: 17 Jul 08 - 11:41 AM Lori Drew, 47, has been charged in Federal court with one count of conspiracy and 3 counts of accessing protected computers without authorization. While serious, each count carries a penalty of up to 5 years in prison, none of the charges is for murder. |
