BS: The last days of Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:27 AM

We are still suffering the after effects of Thatcherism to this day, although this so called socialist government we have now is slightly to the right of Thatcher.

The Falklands ? she sent British soldiers to their deaths to re-vitalise her flagging politcal carreer.

She had a paranoid hatred of trade unions, particularly the NUM, she paid a feckin American hit man to close all the pits and spent more money fighting the strike than the cost of keeping the pits open.

Everything which had a value was sold off to benefit Thatchers rich friends, which is why today we have total chaos in our public transport system and why OAPs sit huddled in several coats every winter because they daren't turn the heating up while the privatised utilities pay more millions to the shareholders.

I wouldn't like to see Thatcher die, I hope she lives to a great age, in pain and misery.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:02 AM

Oh and not to mention the notorious ' poll tax ' Thatcher found a way to make the poor subsidise the rich, she inflicted this firstly on Scotland to punish them for returning no Scottish Tory MPs but at least it caused her downfall.

Ewan MacColl hated her with a vengance, I'm with Ewan.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:02 AM

Rail closures by year



At its peak in 1950, the mileage of the British Railway's system was around 21,000 miles (33 800 km) and 6000 stations. By 1975, the system had shrunk to 12,000 miles (19 300 km) of track and 2000 stations; it has remained roughly this size thereafter.

Closures of unremunerative lines had been ongoing throughout the 20th century. Numbers increased in the 1950s, as the Branchline Committee of BR also looked for uncontentious duplicated lines as candidates for closure. Approximately 3000 miles (4800 km) of line had already been closed between nationalisation and the publication of Beeching's report.[10] After publication, however, the closure process was accelerated markedly.

    * 1950....150 miles (240 km) closed
    * 1951....275 miles (440 km) closed
    * 1952....300 miles (480 km) closed
    * 1953....275 miles (440 km) closed
    * 1954 to 1957....500 miles (800 km) closed
    * 1958....150 miles (240 km) closed
    * 1959....350 miles (560 km) closed
    * 1960....175 miles (280 km) closed
    * 1961....150 miles (240 km) closed
    * 1962....780 miles (1 260 km) closed
    * Beeching report published
    * 1963....324 miles (521 km) closed
    * 1964....1058 miles (1702 km) closed
    * 1965....600 miles (965 km) closed
    * 1966....750 miles (1 207 km) closed
    * 1967....300 miles (480 km) closed
    * 1968....400 miles (640 km) closed
    * 1969....250 miles (400 km) closed
    * 1970....275 miles (440 km) closed
    * 1971....23 miles (37 km) closed
    * 1972....50 miles (80 km) closed
    * 1973....35 miles (56 km) closed
    * 1974....0 miles (0 km) closed

This is what I mean about the lack of objectivity, and the bile which accompanies the unreasoning hatred of Maggie Thatcher by the left.
Richard said, "HER PLANS LAID THE TRAIL THAT DESTROYED THE NATIONAL RAIL INFRASTRUCTURE "
Margaret Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990, you can see for yourself how that corresponds with the dates in the above list.
Like all of us, Maggie did good things and bad things, it is however unfair to scapegoat her or anyone else just because you can.
To rejoice in the demise of anybody is to join the ranks of those who ran the Gulags in Soviet Russia, or the death camps in Poland, it removes one from consideration as a person of humanity.
Love thy neighbour doesn't come with a contingency clause like, unless it's Margaret Thatcher, does it?
I thought socialists were also humanitarians?

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:13 AM

Eric,

You took the words out of my mouth. I can only add, it is my belief that without parliament to hold her back, she would have emerged in her true colours as one of the most callous tyrants in history. Right up there with Hitler, Stalin, Amin, Ceacescau and, yes, Pinochet.

Here's a small and, compared to most of the evils that woman perpetrated, extremely trivial homily. I worked for Cheshire County Council throughout the period of Thatcher's tenure, and for several years afterwards. I watched helpless as her policies slowly and remorselessly crippled and bankrupted local government; as the endless round of cuts and closures and redundancies took their toll of social services, education, old people's homes, libraries. Everything which brought a little dignity to and improved the standards of life of, the people who paid her salary, and in some misguided cases voted for her. Everything in fact except the armed forces and the police.

After Thatcher left office, she published her memoirs, and then went on a tour of the UK to promote same. That means sales royalties to you and me. One of her venues was Chester Gateway Theatre, which backs on to the town's main car park. On the day she visited Chester, the car park was closed and surrounded by armed police. She was flown in by helicopter, addressed the party faithful, sold a whole pile of books, and was then flown straight out afterwards, leaving Cheshire County Council to pick up the tab of £100,000. This at a time when the authority was practically bleeding to death, and we were on the knife edge of being rate capped by this bloody woman's policies.

Yes, compared to what she did to the miners, the unions and the NHS, that is a very small incident. But I look foward to the day when I can either dance on the bitch's grave or piss on her ashes.

(Apologies for the vitriolic nature of this post. I don't normally believe in using Mudcat for launching attacks against anyone. But once in a while an exception comes along which cannot be ignored.)

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:15 AM

Now, John, can you give evidence of left-wing bias in the BBC?

We can all assert. our readers need proof.


   Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:36 AM

Well if like me you listen to Radio4 you may have heard the letters of complaint to Feedback about the left wing bias of the regular guests, The correspondent quoted Mark Steele as their example, Jeremy Hardy was also mentioned 'en passant'.
However as this thread proves beyond reasonable doubt, all political parties work on the age old principle, 'If you're not for us, you're against us'
G

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:53 AM

If I did celebrate the demise or suffering of people, I'd hold a bigger party for Tony Blair's than I would for Maggie's.

It wasn't Maggie who undermined our (traditional) labour /conservative voting choice.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:04 AM

"Reagan and Thatcher, the world may never recover from them."

Well the evil that was Soviet Russia certainly won't

With regard to Margaret Thatcher - we're being a little selective here aren't we?

But come on; please do tell us all how wonderful things were in the UK throughout the 1970's

Tell us all about how democratic was the application of the power of the block vote as used by the Trade Unions to dictate to the elected Government of the United Kingdom exactly what it could or could not do.

Explain to us all the economic sense of subsidising grossly inefficient industries and paying £250 per ton for a commodity you could buy and have delivered from the other side of the world for £8 per ton.

The trouble with the UK is that nobody is prepared to pay the taxes required to keep the welfare state running. The mantra of the left - "It's always somebody else's fault" - "Somebody should do something about .......... (Fill in whatever)". Wrong, if there is anything that needs fixing get the fuck on with it and fix it, you are responsible, nobody else.

The Welfare State as envisioned by its creators has been corrupted and abused to create a culture of dependence in the UK. Everybody in the UK can tell you and reel off their "rights" down to the last dotted 'i' and crossed 't' - None of these fuckers however are so forthcoming about telling you what their responsibilities are and that is why the country is going to hell in high gear. Anything that is good is knocked and dragged down to the lowest level, as a country we revel in self-abasement and mediocrity. The politically correct, socialist, trendy left seem to delight in advertising promoting the desirability of being as thick as shit and proud of it.

Oh LWD, about he inability to rescind decisions taken by the Thatcher's Government. Your comparison to the murderer The Yorkshire Ripper is patently ridiculous. Tell me in these last three Parliaments and Labour Governments, how many coal mines were opened? How many Steel Mills were built? How many shipyards opened? How many car plants opened? Are you trying to tell me that it was not in their power to do any of that?

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:24 AM

Oi Teribus, read my first post again, I said this current government is to the right of Thatcher, in fact the worst socialist government I can remember, I'm 61

I worked with Alan Johnson when he was [ then ] UCW Outdoor secretary and I was a Branch secretary, he was right wing then, he introduced a bonus scheme that sold jobs for money, what a twat.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:28 AM

Giok, apply brain, if any, before mouth. Who started the privatisation gravy train? What happened to the national rail infrastructure, track, and trains? Who got the gravy? Who pays for it in train fares and crap service.

Teribus, nice to note you prefer the ex-soviet countries to be run by the local equivalent of the mafia. Try living there yourself sometime. I suggest Siberia.

And, yes, everyone should be happy to pay their taxes for the bebefit of the country. Funny it's only rich foreigners who get given the option, isn't it? Up against the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:35 AM

Margaret Thatcher is no different from Tony Blair or Alistair Campbell (I always put them together, as for me, they were like siamese twins) All three are to be despised. I have no leaning to right or left in my politicians, I only care for the politics of humanity, and none of those people cared about their fellow human beings.

Alistair Campbell has now written his memoirs, Tony Blair his, and no doubt Gordon Brown will too. Where are the dissenting voices about that? Gordon Brown is responsible for more pensioners having no pensions, or vastly reduced ones, but that is never brought up by those on the extreme left. Why not? Why weren't you up in arms at Cherie Blair? A woman who spends vast amounts on her image, who makes vasts profits from being Tony's wife, and who thinks that being 'just a mother' is a terrible thing. She is one of the most patronising, two-faced, using people I've ever seen in a prime minister's spouse.

Don't any of you look at what has happened over the last decade and a half? Do you think this country is any better?   Margaret Thatcher left a long time ago, and thank goodness she did, but how long does the hatred carry on for? It is that hatred, that 'division' which has ripped this country apart. It is that hatred that stops the wound from healing over too.

There are many people who don't give a damn about their fellow humans, other than those close to them, Margaret Thatcher was just one, although even her children struggled to love her it would seem. Blair and Campbell are right beside her in my view.

On the day that a young soldier was brought home from Iraq, in his coffin, to his small Devon village, Tony Blair was to be seen on 'Red Nose Day' doing a 'comedy sketch' with Catherine Tate, because that was 'Our Tony' part of 'Cool Britannia'...the prime minister who thought he was 'a celebrity' Can you imagine what the family of that soldier must have felt? I felt absolute outrage that any man could be so insensitive.

There are many politicians that we are far better off without, she is just one of them, Blair is another. There are many others who deserve the voice of the far left aimed at them, just as much. Sadly many of those are in their own politicial party. I'd suggest they now use their voice to bring them out into the open, although they'll find their freedom of speech to be somewhat gagged by their own party.

I was on the march in the West Country against the Poll Tax, but you try and orgainse a march like that nowadays, in every city centre, as happened at that time...and see how far you get! Life has become even worse under her successors and they should be hanging their heads in absolute shame for what they have done, with their greed, their insensitivity, the craze for power and control. It was all going to be so very different wasn't it? Is Pinochet any worse than Bush? Bush just controls his population and kills some of them in a different, more subtle way. Blair was his yes-man though, his 'buddy'.

Thatcher/Pinochet - Blair/Bush ?

Tell me though, WHERE are the Unions now? WHY were they not given back their powers the moment New Labour came in? There are no voices now raised in anger, there are no strikes for a population that is paid a pittance, yet who live in an increasingly expensive country, way beyond their financial means! Yet, no-one is on the streets protesting. No major strikes are being organised. There are no strong 'Union Men' around. They'd all be arrested these days anyway. You can't even get within one mile of The Houses of Parliament, protest-wise, without being arrested now.

???????????


Maybe this thread should be called The Last Days of Apathy, because then, it could mean that rather than waste time vomiting up words of bile about Margaret Thatcher, the far left has finally seen the light and realised that the way forward lies with openess, honesty, integrity and compassion, with them taking the lead, turning their hatred for Thatcher into something useful, which starts within their own party, as well as all the others, for never have we lived in more controlling and dangerous times as we now do.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:54 AM

The unions had that power because the work they did was servicing those big industries and services which are no longer there. It has to be said that the power was not always handled responsibly, but that was noexcuse for the destruction that followed,

labour's better because more people are working. and a lot of social good flows from that. Blair followed Bush because he saw Wilson picking pieces out of his ass for the next ten years after becoming a refusenik over Vietnam.

that's the world we live in. we tried putting in holy fools to lead the labour party with Michael Foot - it doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 08:39 AM

Come on now Richard don't be shy tell us all how great it was back in the 1970's, or has your memory conveniently erased that period so that you can fill your brain ("if any") with the usual politically correct, socialist, trendy left-wing claptrap you come out with?

Margaret Thatcher - without any shadow of a doubt one of the best Prime Ministers the United Kingdom has ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 08:42 AM

Interesting thread, this. Aside from all the obvious hatred stuff, I think history will be particularly harsh on Margaret Hilda Thatcher (although it's probably to soon to tell just how harsh). Not because of the dogma and revenge driven inhumanity, but because of the strategic mistakes that have left the nation so weak in so many crucial areas. A short list;
Destroying the coal industry. This left the industry without the means to raise investment capital to clean up emissions, and removed a strategic asset by rendering most of our immense coal reserves (aka dependable energy) unrecoverable due to neglect.
Destroying the fishing industry. Another strategic reserve gone.
Abolishing Industrial Training Boards and the associated levies on employers, leading to the almost complete loss of apprenticeships, which we now see as the gross skills shortages in many important trades.
Raising European integration as a spectre in the minds of the population, with no actual gains. (All the alleged 'money back' gains were surrendered later). Given the current trend towards globalisation, there is a clear strategic advantage in being part of a large trading bloc.
Reducing the level of manufacturing industry to 30% of the pre-Thatcher level, leaving Britain dependent on an increasingly unreliable global market for imported goods.
Creating a society where cooperation and support for the less able was anathema; any form of collaborative or altruistic effort was seen by Thatcher as potential socialism, and was ruthlessly discouraged. This has led to Thatchers Children; a generation where many lack the moral code that places a duty to help ones neighbour. All that matters is self-enrichment, and people's worth is judged by their wealth, not their value.
The Internal Market in the National Health service; I was part of this one, and it has led to the siphoning away of huge amounts of resource into non-patient related activity.
An assumption that the best way to reduce crime was to lock up more people. The evidence discredited this, even at the time, but dogma won the day. As a result we have one of the highest prison populations per capita, and one of the worst re-offending rates.

I could go on and on, but the arguments are already well-rehearsed. Perhaps the biggest damage of all was the setting of a political agenda that has led all subsequent administrations into the trap of trying to be 'tougher' than the last, in the belief that a right wing, low-wage/low tax liberal economy is the only way to be competitive in the global marketplace. It's far from the real situation, but dogma has now become accepted wisdom, and seems irreversible; people have been conditioned not to vote for any party that seems to have the potential to tax individuals to enrich the common good.
Enough for now; Thatcher will die in her own good time, and I wish her peace, as I would for any other human being. What matters is what we make of her legacy; do we allow it to persist, or take the brave step to change course?
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 08:52 AM

The final betrayal of Britain's fishermen was confirmed in 2003, when British waters became a European Union (EU) asset, under the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP).

Edward Heath in his haste to get Britain into the Common Market fell for a swindle, conceived just days before negotiations for us to join began. It gave the other member states freedom to fish in our waters by making them a 'common resource'. Having exhausted their own fishing grounds, they wanted to get their nets into the rich fishing waters inside the British 200-mile limit. In accepting it, Heath betrayed British fishermen and gave other EU nations a licence to rob, loot and pillage our fish forever.

Since then, the ongoing process of taking control of our fishing waters by stealth has continued unchecked.

DID YOU KNOW THAT UNDER THE COMMON FISHERIES POLICY:

More fish are now being thrown back dead in discards, or landed illegally, than are landed legitimately.

Britain provides three quarters of the stock, two thirds of the waters, but gets only a third of the catch and an eighth by value.

The fish nearly all hatch, grow and spawn in British waters but are a 'Common Resource", the only one. So everyone else can catch our fish and land it in their own ports, destroying the British fishing industry.

Every EU nation has "equal access" to this "Common Resource" and new entrants with big fishing fleets, but few fish, seek catches in our waters. Spain was the first and our fishing fleet has been cut to make room for them.

Countries, whose fishing fleets are too large for their quotas can register their vessels as British, get European money and catch our quotas. A fifth of the British registered fleet is now foreign owned and these quota hoppers catch more than two fifths of our hake and plaice.

Policing at sea falls mainly to Britain but we can't discriminate against the vessels most likely to offend and our efforts are not supported by control at most European ports where small fish "over quota" and illegally undersized fish are all landed with impunity.

Nations outside the EU have built powerful fishing industries within their 200-mile limits. Britain isn't allowed to do this because of the CFP rules.

Not Maggie but Ted,and the EEC killed the UK fishing industry.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 08:52 AM

John,

We'll just have to run ain a parallel universe for a bit.

Yes I do listen to lots of radio 4. Is your last post the whole of your reason for saying there's that BBC bias? Is that the actual totality of your evidence?

If yes, you do seem to require remarkably little to come to your view. There's got to be more.


Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 09:12 AM

The main reason for the state our country is in, is the total apathy of the British people themselves, their willingness to give in, their acceptance of the dumbing down of their children and grandchildren, their refusal to challenge, to ask questions, to take an interest, their acceptance of often deeply crooked politicians and every other damned crooked thing that is thrown at them.

As a nation, we have lost our integrity. As a nationm we have lost our anger. As a nation, we have the plot.

But worst of all....

As a nation, we have lost ourselves.

It is time for the good men and true to return once more.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 09:31 AM

Hi Giok! I agree about fishing, that the initial problem was Heath; but when all EU fishing fleets were struggling most member states found ways of keeping their fleets together, usually by paying generous subsidies to 'mothball' parts of the fleet. (Spain is a good example) As a result of this strategic view, these assets were still available when the rules on quotas were relaxed. Contrast this with the standard Thatcherite approach that said that struggling industries should be left to go to the wall, in the interests of 'the market', and thus subsidies were withheld. I should have said; Thatcher was primarily responsible for the rampant short-termism of British capitalism as well.
Very best; how's that lovely old Martin doing?
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 09:41 AM

Well Ivor the original remark was somewhat tongue in cheek, and as we both know, it is incapable of concrete proof.
There have been complaints about a perceived left wing bias within the BBC for years, but nobody has ever walked or been pushed as a result.
Apart from the departure of Rod Liddle for writing an article entitled 'Marching back to Labour' in the Spectator. He was told to either resign his job with the Spectator or the one with the BBC, so he left the BBC. Ever since which he has written an awful lot of derogatory stuff about the corporation. methinks he has a problem with them :)

This might amuse.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 09:43 AM

Her ethos made the British Railway system into the mess it is today, because of privatisation & the prolification of separate companies, the government subsidy is now, I believe, 5 times what it was previously!

Still, if it hadn't been privatised, I might still be working for them & not enjoying early retirement & living in Ireland. Thanks for that Maggie, but I'm truly sorry for what chaos has been rained on the railways.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:19 AM

Giok, thanks for that. I can see the t-i-c aspect, tho' that's oft tricky in posts.

I suspect the relentless complainers of that supposed bias are exactly the sort of right-wingers who manage relentlessness so well until they've won. They just can't stand anything being in public ownership.

Of course we can find the occasional leftie on the beeb. For each one of them, i'd be happy to provide two from the right. I don't think that means the Beeb has a right-wing bias either. The remit of its constitution is to be even-handed.

But quoting a very few examples in order to assert, as others try to, about the 'bias of the BBC', simply doesn't stand up to a moments scrutiny.

personally, I like it for a quite conservative reason; choice. I want a choice between commercial and public service broadcasting.

Those further right who can't see beyond their pockets want to make money out of everything they can lay their hands on. They're completely not averse to getting money out of you and me via the government, in the way of 'selling the family silver'(c.Harold Macmillan)[railways,P.O.,et cetera ad nauseum; you know - assets we used to own]

They think, amazingly that there's no difference between a country and a company/corporation.


Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Big Phil
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:19 AM

Multiculturism has done more damage to this once great country than maggie ever did. Pushed to its extreme by Bliar and his acolytes.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

The 70s were in fact a great time to live. They were wrecked by the greed of the capitalists who would rather close a business than see the workers receive a fair share of receipts.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:43 AM

Well I for one won't be celebrating but I may heave a sigh of relief.

Ditto King Arthur.

Sadly I see the "ME" generation so well nurtured by the Thatcher years creeping into the Folk Festival circuit. Festival goers as opposed to folkies. But regrettable just the same.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:21 PM

Strange though how little Thatch was liked by her own party. Most of the policies were quietly dropped rather than noisily 'rescinded'.

They knew bloody well she was a wrong 'un.

I wonder which pearl of genius Teribus values so highly....the monetarist economic policies that closed down 30% of manufacturing capacity in her first 18 months, the handling of the hunger strike which handed Ulster over on a plate, the national curriculum that had inner city kids who couldn't read and write studying two foreign languages and Shakespeare (because Keith Joseph did that at his prepper)...........the sacking of really good men like John MacGregor, and the preferrment of lickspittles like Gummer.

Perhaps Teribus has fantasies about her being his nanny and giving him a spanking. Can't think what else it could be.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Bert Fegg
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:08 PM

Oooh, I just knew this would be a great thread!

Good to see some of the regular Mudcat wombats nailing their very blue colours to the mast and proving once and for all that not all folkies have developed sensible opinions since the French Revolution. Did all those songs of rebellion go in one ear and out the latter, lads and lasses?

I'm off to stoke the bonfire in readiness and hoping to invite the Hamiltons to light the blue touchpaper, though I won't be asking them to step away rapidly.

Grrrr,

Bert

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:16 PM

Missing you already Bert, or whoever you are, please come back to see us when you can't stay so long.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Bert Fegg
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:24 PM

Well, at least I can spell 'Jock'.

Grrrr,

Bert

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:27 PM

Nope too long, try shorter next time

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Bert Fegg
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM

Ooh, Jock, you are a wag! Pity there's not much substance between your ears though.

Do you have a life outside Mudcat?

No, I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Megan L
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:34 PM

Jings boy you must have been looking in the mirror there.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:46 PM

"Ewan MacColl hated her with a vengeance, I'm with Ewan."
Peggy said one of the great tragedies of MacColl's life was that he died when she was at the height of her power.
Watched the programme on Enoch Powell last night - they're all a shower of bastards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Bert Fegg
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:49 PM

Ah no Megan

Just rejoice, rejoice!

Grrrr,

Bert

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Bert Fegg
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:51 PM

I couldnt have put it better myself Jimbo and worst of all some of them seem to inhabit this site.

Grrrr,

Bert

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM

Some people have great difficulty in telling the difference between a desire to see fair play, and their own doctrinaire views.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Bert Fegg
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM

Oh dear Jockie baby if you think that Thatcher and her drones had anything to do with 'fair play' you'd be better off mowing the lawn for the next 30 years.


Even bigger grrrr,

Mr. Fegg

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

i Some people have great difficulty in telling the difference between a desire to see fair play, and their own doctrinaire views.

Quite agree.

Then there are those who can see the difference, and prefer their doctrinaire views. I have in mind the right-wingers I was talking about.


:-)

      Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: skipy
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:24 PM

Oooh, I just knew this would be a great thread!
Perhap you could tell me the dates that your parents died so that I can organise a couple of parties! This is a sick idea for a thread & a disgrace to "the cat".
I am 100% pro Thatcher, but I will not celerbrate the death of Kinnock or even Blair, because it's sick!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 03:53 AM

"I am 100% pro Thatcher,"
Oooo - have just heard the first cuckoo of the year
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM

"I am 100% pro Thatcher,"

In fact this guys still paying Poll Tax.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 05:22 AM

"In fact this guys still paying Poll Tax." - WLD

What are you paying in Council Tax WLD?

Odd thing is if Poll Tax was introduced now to replace Council tax it would accepted as a far fairer tax in a second.

"Teribus, nice to note you prefer the ex-soviet countries to be run by the local equivalent of the mafia. Try living there yourself sometime. I suggest Siberia." . Richard Bridge

Funny thing about the leftists in Europe and in the UK. For some reason they are totally blind to the evils of the type of communist regimes spawned by Russia and China. Must have something to do with having the word "socialist" included in the title, but then again the Nazi Party was a "National Socialist" Organisation. Tell us Richard how many people were killed by the Communist Regimes of Russia, China, North Korea, Cambodia and Cuba - give you a hint Richard it runs into tens of millions. And guess what Richard - not a squeak of protest, or murmur of objection from such as yourself and your fellow travellers. You do however have the absolute afrontery to come up with, "Teribus, nice to note you prefer the ex-soviet countries to be run by the local equivalent of the mafia." - old militant trade union leftist tactic - don't put words in my mouth then try to take me to task them. Interesting that you suggest that I might like to try living in Siberia - so I take it Richard that you do have some sort of clue where it is, what as an area it was used for, and how many died there.

And by local equivalent of the mafia I take it you mean the ex-Communist Party Bosses and KGB Officers. Another little question for you Richard - What percentage of the population of Russia or China were Members of the Communist Party? - I think that you will find that it was a fairly exclusive club, which could only be joined by invitation only.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 06:05 AM

less than I was in poll tax. Poll tax meant my rates bill went up by 350%. Its reasonable these days.

It was all based on scare tactics - you got old people saying things to like - there are 30 pakistanis living in one house some places and they all use the toilet and get free spectacles. Then the poor old sods dropped dead with shock when the poll tax bills arrived.

Teribus I will accept Thatcher was a slight improvement on Josef Stalin and pol Pot. And I think that shows I am a reasonable man and willing to concede a point whilst debating.

What do you want to go down as though - the man who supported the nearest thing we had to Stalin and Pol Pot?

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: redsnapper
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 07:25 AM

I've been following this thread but haven't contributed before. I consider myself fairly left wing but, to me, the main premise of this thread seems pretty sick. I personally wouldn't wish harm on Margaret Thatcher although I disliked her intensely as a politician right back to her milk-snatching days.

I would debate politics with anyone on a respectful basis below the line here at Mudcat but let it be about the politics and policies rather than "burning" or "pissing on" and other venomous phrases about a specific individual. That is just sick and not really worthy of anybody with half a claim to a brain.

RS

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 07:54 AM

Poll Tax was brought in to replace what was known as Rates, Council Tax was brought in to replace Poll Tax. So what your Rates were is of no relevance, Poll Tax was brought in because Rates income did not cover the expenditure, so I am not in the least surprised that Poll Tax bill was greater than your Rates bill. My Council Tax Bill has always been higher than what I was required to pay as Poll Tax.

"It was all based on scare tactics - you got old people saying things to like - there are 30 pakistanis living in one house some places and they all use the toilet and get free spectacles. Then the poor old sods dropped dead with shock when the poll tax bills arrived."

Utter Crap WLD - what was said by the old folks was perfectly true but their very legitimate gripe ran more like this (Taking your example):

"There are 30 Pakistanis living in a house exactly the same as mine. There are fifteen wage earners in that house compared to me living on my own on my pension. They have a far greater call on the services provided by the council and on those jointly funded by local and central government, yet I have to pay exactly the same amount."

Don't know how your maths is WLD but given your chosen example, under Rates and Council Tax you got two people paying, under Poll Tax you would have sixteen paying - so for arguements sake if the total amount required to run the place was divided by the number of people earning in that community or by the number of houses being lived in under which scheme do you pay less.

Your next one was absolutely priceless - So:

"Thatcher was a slight improvement on Josef Stalin and pol Pot. And I think that shows I am a reasonable man and willing to concede a point whilst debating.

What do you want to go down as though - the man who supported the nearest thing we had to Stalin and Pol Pot?"

Now what was that I said to Richard Bridge about putting words into peoples mouths? Oh yes, "old militant trade union leftist tactic". Now go back over any previous post of mine on this thread and show me where I have mentioned Joseph Stalin or Pol Pot.

So Maggie was a "slight" improvement on Joseph Stalin, Communist dictator and tyrant credited with having caused the deaths of over 20 million. A "slight" improvement on Pol Pot who killed, depending on sources between one quarter and one third of his country's population.

Absolutely frightening that with that as an illustration of your firm grip on reality that you were actually involved in education.

Richard tells us what a marvellous time it was in the 1970's, tells us all about those greedy capitalists.

- Not a single word about the mess the country was in because it was being held to ransom by totally irresponsible Trades Union Leaders.
- Not a word about the 3-day Week and the power cuts
- Not a word about the almost continuous wild-cat strikes which did more to ruin British Industry than anything
- Richard doesn't seem to be able to recall the sight of Dennis Healey and the British Government going cap in hand to the IMF for a loan to tide the nation over for six months.
- Nothing about it being in the hands of striking hospital porters as to whether or not you could be admitted to hospital
- Nothing about the rubbish left lying in the streets or the dead left unburied in the morgues.

Absolutely wonderful Richard, I recall it all vividly. I also recall who it was that took the Government of the UK out of the hands of a few unelected Trades Union Leaders and the TUC and put it back firmly in the hands of the duly elected Members of Parliament - A greengrocers daughter, mother of two, name of Margaret Thatcher.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:20 AM

You seem to be a Thatcher apologist Teribus, apologise for this , when Thatcher introduced the ' poll tax ' it originally meant that someone living in hovel would pay the same tax as someone living in a mansion, irrespective of their income, a deliberate action by Thatcher to make the poor subsidise her rich cronies.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:38 AM

eric the red, your comparison is emotive crap and you know it. Irrespective of what their living arrangements are, if two people are paying the same how is one subsidising the other?

As the example raised by WLD with Rates and Council Tax only each Householder pays, the basis for lobbying the tax being an arbitrary assessment of the rental value of your property (The old "Rates") or an arbitrary assessment on the value of your property (Council Tax). Under Poll Tax, or to give it its correct name Community Charge all those earning a living who are elligible to vote and who are on the Election Register pay a fixed amount, after all everybody living in the community benefits from the services provided.

Now while I can see an extremely easy way to determine how much is required for a communities budget and how much everyone should pay under the Community Charge scheme. I cannot see the same simplicity working on assessments on property values or rental potential which never reflect the current situation because they are obsolete the minute they are set. There are always more people working within a community than there are households therefore with a flat community charge everyone who has call on the services provided pays, with the current Council Tax it would seem that quite a number get a free ride at the expense of others.

Had the Community Charge been established the UK might just have some notion as to how many aliens actually reside within our borders. What was it our Home Secretary had to embarassingly admit last year? That he hasn't got a clue. As far as collection of the tax it should be the same as for PAYE, deduction at source.

A "Thatcher apologist", most certainly not - She's got fuck all to apologise for, she definitely put the UK back on track, having pulled it back from an abyss. Not one of her policies has been set aside, or rescinded. Certainly none have been reversed, ask Gordon of Cartoon, he was more than delighted to jump into the Chancellor of the Exchequer's job in 1997, the situation he faced and the funds available were far different than when Maggie's Government came to power in 1979 after Labour and their Trade Union Masters tried their best to completely destroy the country.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM

Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Grantham?

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:12 PM

Yeh I was involved in education. Thankfully it was throughout the 1970's when schools were allowed to get on with the job - rather than running to keep up with the Thatcher/Joseph demolition job of the public services.

You think we haven't all heard pile of bunkum that you keep spewing up. The press is owned by right wing turds who keep jabbering about the evils of trade unions and the three day week.

And you know what. people aren't buying it cos it crap, unmitigated bollocks! despite blanket media mogul approval for Thatcher. She is seen as a moral low point for this country even by the people of her own party. her own party recognise that no one will vote for them as long as anybody thinks there is a remote chance of them being associated with that bunch of bastards buggering up the country again. Nearly two decades of the highest unemployment figures ever.

its just you and the Daily mail. Teribus - you're in great company. we're not leftists. My trade union The NAS was known as the Tory Union. there are plenty of decent people who vote Tory and work for the party. She wasn't one of them.

Its just you who's off the scale.

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

You'll have heard the old aphorism [?] about fire being a good servant, but a bad master.
The same is true of the trade unions, when they can bring down the government of the country the way they did Callaghan's government, then the time had come for a showdown.
Well Labour were never going to bite the hand that fed them were they? So it fell to Maggie to take them on, and Arthur Scargill helped her to win the battle.
Now I'm not against trade unions, very necessary organisations, but like many politicians do now, they thought the rules were for others and not for them.
Tony Blair learned his lesson, he got into bed with big business, and attracted donations from them and reducing his dependence on Trade Union funds. You will note that one of Gordon Brown's first actions as chancellor was to cut the taxes paid by big businesses. This was a quid pro quo for their support, and that of Murdoch as well.
Now the Poll Tax was/is iniquitous, and it is right to castigate her and her government for that one, especially since she chose to pilot the scheme in Scotland.
However the one thing I can say it is fair to blame her for is the swing to indirect taxation, where instead of paying income tax on earnings, we all now pay tax on everything else. If they could find a way to tax farts I'm sure they'd do it.
Put up income tax, and raise the lower threshold, to take pensioners out of taxation, and increase the amount paid by higher earners. Tax the million pound + bonus's of the city traders at 50%. It will cut into the sales of Porsche cars, but then again look who is taking Ken Livingstone to court over his emissions tax!
Sorry if I sound like a Socialist, but then again, Gordon Brown doesn't, so somebody has to.

G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: The last days of Thatcher
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 12:42 PM

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