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BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jul 07 - 08:14 PM Yeah, Dickey... We really don't know... Do you believe a media that has been embedded with a military that takes its oders from the Bush administartion??? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you... We don't know... What we think we know, which of course the Bushites have spent a large amount of my tax dollars refuting, is that upwards of 650,000 Iraqis have died... How many of them were shooting back is anyone's guess... No, I think I can comfortably stand by what I wrote some 5 years ago... You ceratinly cannot refute it and there seems to be more evisdence that I was right than there is that I was wrong... Your infroamtion sources come exclusively from folks who want to keep everyone in the dark... i.e, the Bush administration and its shills... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Date: 14 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM My parents attended, and my mother taught in, integrated public schools in West Virginia. In 1966, we moved to Orangeburg, South Carolina, where the schools were still segregated. My parents taught me then that the policy in South Carolina was wrong, that it was WRONG to treat an individual differently based on his or her race. Agreeing with my parents were the national news media, liberal white Southerners, many Northern whites, most blacks, the President of the United States, and the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1970, the schools there were finally integrated. The law stopped treating people differently based on color. We all knew it would be a long while before PEOPLE stopped treating people differently based on color, but we felt sure that school integration was a giant step toward the color-blind dream. Even as a 9-year-old, I knew it was wrong for the law to make blacks go to particular schools. It was wrong then. It is wrong still. Although it is sometimes pretended that there are only two schools of thought on the issue of racial discrimination, there are, in fact, three. One school of thought, segregationism, was the law in South Carolina in 1969. We called what happened in South Carolina in 1970 "integration". A third, and currently popular, school of thought seeks to balance racial demographics by treating blacks and whites differently under the law. This third view, however wise, well-meaning, and popular it may be, is in fact forbidden as public policy by the "equal protection" clause of the Constitution. Color-blind integration is what the Warren Court ordered. Color-blind integration is what the actual text of the "equal protection" clause requires. Color-blind integration is what the Roberts Court upheld. Many of you believe that the actual text of the Constitution should either be ignored or amended to allow the government to treat people differently based on their color, so long as the purpose is good, racially discriminating "in a nice way" to engineer a better society. I respect your views, even as I disagree with them. I ask that you not slander integrationism by equating it with segregationism. Kent Davis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jul 07 - 11:35 PM There's another way to go. You can have exclusive residential neighborhoods that most minority families can't afford to but into. In which case you have a defacto form of segregation that doesn't seem to bother anybody, except the folks who don't have the price of the buy-in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Date: 15 Jul 07 - 12:17 AM Riginslinger, I realize that the word "segregation" is sometimes used to describe a situation in which there is a a large preponderance of one race, without regard to the cause. Thus, one might say that the northern part of Manhattan, the National Basketall Association, Mudcat, bluegrass music, and Norway are "segregated". However, they are not segregated in the Jim Crow sense of being legally mandated to exclude members of a given race. The point I was trying to make is that it is not an accurate representation of the recent Supreme Court decision to make statements such as the esteemed Mr. Bobert's opening salvo: "Just when we thought that ol' Jim was long dead seems that the Robert's Court has resurrented him with their decision that intergration is just way too much a bother..." If you favor government mandates to balance the racial demographics of schools, or of neighborhoods, or of Mudcat, I respectfully ask that you not call everyone who disagrees a segregationist. Kent Davis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Jul 07 - 01:06 AM KD - I was not disagreeing with you. It's just that this economically driven segregation has materialized and is more evident in the last few years. I don't see anything that can be done to change it without violating the constitution. It seems to me that affirmative action is destined to change under the Robert's Court as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM Yeah, there is something mind boggling when "race" cannot be used as a factor for intergarting schools... This is what the Robert's Court has decided and one day our country will look back upon the Robert's Court as just a bunch of ideologues who couldn't have cared less about the comtitution as they single handedly tried to usurp power... Think about it... First we have a power grab by the Bush/Cheney folks and they grabbed power like nuthin' most of us have seen in our life time... Then when they screwed things up and their poll numbers went in the toilet we have the judical branch picking right (pun intended) where the executive branch left off in trying to undo the same stuff that every Republican has hated going back to the New Deal... No, these aren't isolated decisions we ares eein'... What we are seing is "Boss Hog's" perfect storm agenda unfloding... The have hated the Warren Court for decades... They have hated the New Deal... These people have grown up hearing their daddies and granddaddies rail against liberal, commies, socialists and the like... They are so brainwashed that they no longer are capable of independent thought... They are Hell-bent on battling all those ill's that they have been taught to think are what's-wrong-with-America and now this particular court has grapped the power and fasten yer seatbelts 'cause they are just getting started... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Date: 15 Jul 07 - 10:19 PM Maybe I'm just dumber than a box of rocks, but I don't still don't see why it is "mind-boggling" that race can't be used as a factor in integrating schools. The 14th amendment actually forbids using race as a factor in legal decisions. "Brown Vs. Board of Education" held that race could not be used as a factor in deciding who could attend a particular school. When the decision was actually implemented, it was implemented by CEASING to take race into account. If integration in 1954 meant not taking race into account, and if integration in 1970 meant not taking race into account, then it would seem likely that integration in 2007 would still mean not taking race into account. Whether taking race into account is a good idea or a bad idea is another topic. However, the only way it COULD be taken into account would be: (1) a constitutional amendment to modify the 14th amendment or (2) a new "massive resistance", a collective decision to ignore the 14th amendment the way the Southern states did between 1954 and 1970. Kent Davis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 16 Jul 07 - 12:18 AM Kent - By your own admission, people of African descent were marginalized by arrogant forces between the end of the Civil War until the early 1970's. Do you really think it is improper for the greater society to move to try to change these impositions? Do you think the constitution prevents them from doing that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:11 PM Yeah, ahhh, Kent... You say that ther 14th ammendment prevents using race as a factor in legal decisions... How about using race to keep schools segreagted which is what Brown stopped... I don't understand yer logic at all... "Yeah, Ralph, lets keep them naggas outta our white schools and when they complaim we say 'Sorry, we'd love to have yer kids learnbt up right next to littler Billy and little Bobby Sue but that danged 14th ammendment says we can't have it taht way'..." You are so full of bull, Kent, that I'd hate to be you havin' to sleep at night knowing that you are spreading the same kinda screwed up thinkin' that brough us a hundred years of Jim Crow, the KKK, the Minutemen, et al... So how would you go about ending segregation without considering race??? And BTW, I find yer arguments that desegragation and intergration being vastly different why beyond logic to any thinking man... Perhaps to a legal-eze nut but legal-eze somethimes will get us into more trouble than just good ol' common sense... But, hey, regards, an all... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 16 Jul 07 - 10:45 PM Bobert - Lumping the KKK in with the Minutemen would seem to indicate that you think the Minutemen are motivated by racists reasons. The KKK, of course, was part of some Protestant religious organization--don't remember which one--but I think it's important not to lose sight of that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Date: 17 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM Riginslinger, No, I do not think that "it is improper for the greater society to move to try to change these impositions". No, I do not "think the constitution prevents them from doing that". What the Constitution prevents is the GOVERNMENT from doing that. Individuals, clubs, private colleges, private businesses, charities, institutions and associations of all kinds may distinguish between the races as far as the Constitution is concerned. (There are some legislative barriers to doing so, but no Constitutional ones). Bobert, "Taking race into account" is the opposite of "NOT taking race into account". Therefore, I must request your apology for accusing me of "spreading the same kinda screwed up thinkin' that brough us a hundred years of Jim Crow, the KKK, the Minutemen, et al..." I wrote: "In 1966, we moved to Orangeburg, South Carolina, where the schools were still segregated. My parents taught me then that the policy in South Carolina was wrong, that it was WRONG to treat an individual differently based on his or her race. Agreeing with my parents were the national news media, liberal white Southerners, many Northern whites, most blacks, the President of the United States, and the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1970, the schools there were finally integrated. The law stopped treating people differently based on color. We all knew it would be a long while before PEOPLE stopped treating people differently based on color, but we felt sure that school integration was a giant step toward the color-blind dream. Even as a 9-year-old, I knew it was wrong for the law to make blacks go to particular schools. It was wrong then. It is wrong still." I trust you recognize that I clearly condemned Jim Crow on both moral and Constitutional grounds. If you weren't a fellow West Virginian, I might have to get mad. Kent Davis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 17 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM Bobert: You really don't know but you are going to say yes, no or just give a fuzzy answer that makes you seem like it came true even if you don't know? I hate to always be the splinter in the middle of your screed board but it takes a friend to tell you your fly is open or you have bad breath you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 17 Jul 07 - 09:31 AM Kent, Your patience is admirable but your intelligent reason is wasted. Bobert has one way of looking at race -- if you don't agree that blacks should be taken care of because they cannot care for themselves, somehow in Bobert's world, that makes you the racist. Yeah, I know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM This discussion is disheartening because it show that generally, folks have a very low level of understanding , both of history and of the Constitution on this issue. This is not a BS/"INMHO" issue--This question has torn at the foundations of our Country from it's beginnings, and it may yet rip them apart. At a very minimum, before posting any more, you should get some background on the issue here: Brown vs. Board of Education Summary . Let know one be deceived--their is no resolution to this problem to be found in the Constitution. Our founding fathers tried to find a way to resolve question of slavery that document, and they could not. We live with the legacy of their failure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:53 PM Bug off, John... I have never said that blacks need to be taken care of.. That's just a bunch of bukll just like yer bud, Kent's, illogic is asying that "race" cannot be used as a factor in desegregating schools... Pure unalterd, 180 proof bull... How else are y6ou gonna intergrate/desegregate schools if "race" cannot be used as a variable in getting the job done??? No one seems to have an answer to this ver basic question.... Lotta double speak but no answers... Is this what you folks want you kids and grandkids to remember about how you all responded when Brown was overturned... No double speak and legal-ese changes this... Four discenting Suprmes with more expeerience in Consitutional law in their finger nail clippins than the entirity of the Mudburg kingdom agree with what I am saying here... Go argue with them... You will *******not******* ever, ever, ever, ever convince me that the Robert's Court ruling will do anything but make intergartion/desegregation harder... Not will you convince 4 Suprme Court justices... But go on with yer double-speak and illogic... I'll be back in a couple days strictly to read your post pattin' one another on the back for a job well done... But right now, screw it... I'm off to Elkins, WV, to do my annual "battle of the bluesman" at Blues Week.... Maybe by the time you get back you all will have welts on yer backs for patting each other's backs so hard... Shame on you all... And no, I don't owe anyone an apology who supports the Robert's decision so if yer waitin' for it, better pack a lotta clothes... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 17 Jul 07 - 09:24 PM Looks like I ain't done yet... Yup... Here's what the argument boils down to in the simpliest terms... Here's what you tell the balck kid who is tryin' to get an education in a schoolother than a Black school"... BTW, intergration/desegregation ain't been workin' for a long time... There are still black schools and there are white schools all over America... But never mind that little bit of factoid crap.... Here what you, as friggin' supposed adults, tell little Brenda on why she cannot attend a predominantly white school: "Ahhhhh, now we know how hard you have worked an' we know that you would likie to attend the school over on the other side of town but the mean ol' Supreme Court won't let color'eds attend that school because, ahhhhh, if they did then they would have to take into account that you is, ahhhh, color'eds... Now we sho uff weould love to havwe you attend the other school but them mean ol' judees would have us fired... You understand, don't y6a' Brenda... We're just trying to obey the law...." This is the argument I'm hearing here... It's racist... It's un-American... It's absolutely mind boggling... This ain't America... This is Germany in 1937... This is soem very fu*ked up rationaizations... I don't wnat to hear your refrasing of the same dumb-ass brownshirt reasoning... I want to hear you tell me your big friggin' ideas on how to intergrate/desegregate our school system... No more crap... Now I am going to go pack for Blues Week... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Date: 17 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM Have a great time. It's been interesting. Kent Davis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: M.Ted Date: 17 Jul 07 - 10:38 PM Play a couple of flatted fifths for me, Bobert. In the meantime, I am handing out reading assignments. Specifically, the Seattle decision, here: Recent Supreme Court Decisions . It's a PDF, the third one down, dated 6/28/07, Docket number 05-908. Before any of of the rest of you wax on, I suggest you read Justice Roberts' decision, in it's entirety, followed by dissenting opinions of Justices Stevens and Breyers, which are also in the file. Your opinions will be worth a little more when you know what you're talking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:52 PM Hey Bobert, what is wrong with a black school anyway? Are black people inferior or something? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 19 Jul 07 - 06:03 PM Only in yer mind, Dickey... And thanks, Ted... Had a ball... Played until 3:30 this mornin'... The last bit with Phil Wiggins of Cephas and Wiggins... After leaoding up gear and finding my harp player, got back to the Cheat River Lodge 'round 4:00, got a little over 4 hours sleep and just got home... I'm beat... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:08 PM I thought you'd be gone a week! Anyway, sounds like you had fun--I guess "blues" must be one of those oxymorons:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 19 Jul 07 - 08:22 PM Very much is, Ted... The lues as a genre is cellibratory... OKay, in the 20's when it first was recorded it was by folks who were glad to survive yet another 6 day work week on the plantation... Plantation, Bobert??? Yeah... Plantations... That what I've been talking about... There are still millions of black folk in our country who were alive during the Jim Crow days... Yeah, the racist white folks who have been pissed off since Brown V Topeka Board of Ed. now can be comforted by a racist court whothink just like them... I'm seein' more and more of history repeating itself and firmly believe that our country is headed down the tibes as the great "role model"... We are no longer moving forward with the lone exception being corporate profits that don't trickle down to the working class who do the real work behind them... Other than that, the country is in reverse gear at a time when the rest of the world seems to be moving forward... If people think that this decision isn't anything to be concerened about, I'd suggest that those folks read the discenting opionins for a better understanding of what we are really talking about here... Impeach John Roberts!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Jul 07 - 09:49 PM Bobert - We seem to be asking the same people who elected GWB to a second term to impeach the showcase of his administration, John Roberts. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board and figure out how GWB got re-elected in the first place. I didn't vote for him, and nobody I know voted for him. The whole thing looks pretty fishy to me. But I think we're stuck with the mindless Roberts for a very long time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM Simple, Ted... Lawyers and corrupt voting practices in a country that says democracy is some wonderful thing... 2000: Florida 2004: Ohio Same crap, different elections, different states... It si wonderous that exit polls, once a very accurate berometer of final tabulations no longer work??? Hmmmmmmm???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:58 AM Bobert: I am still waiting for an answer. How about the DC school system. It is run by mostly black people and has a big budget so what is the problem? Can D.C. Schools Be Fixed? After decades of reforms, three out of four students fall below math standards. More money is spent running the schools than on teaching. And urgent repair jobs take more than a year . . . By Dan Keating and V. Dion Haynes Washington Post Staff Writers Sunday, June 10, 2007; Page A01 Kelly Miller Middle School opened its doors in a struggling Northeast Washington neighborhood in 2004, a $35 million showcase for the District's public schools, every classroom equipped with a whiteboard and computers. A particular source of pride was a media production room, where students could broadcast announcements and produce programs to be viewed on TVs wired in each classroom. Three years later, there have been no broadcasts. The room still needs a last, critical piece of equipment, which fell into a bureaucratic chasm. Until a few days ago, the principal had never been told what the part was or when it was coming. For now, the $150,000 production room is a storage closet for unused books and furniture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jul 07 - 09:18 AM Dickey - What would be your solution to fix the DC shcool district? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jul 07 - 11:02 AM Well, I, for one, think that Mayor Fenty is making the right moves... I think Janey had to go if for no other reason but he wasn't getting the job done... I do not disagree one bit that the D.C. school system has over the years become bogged down with way too many managers who mismanage and too few good tachers... Fenty has also hired a contracting firm with a proven track record to address the problems of getting the actual school buildings back into decent shape... This is a good start and my hat is off to him... Now he'll have to boot out some entrenched middle managers who do purdy much nuthin'... And he may have to work real hard with the Democratic D.C. Appropriations Committee and see if D.C. can get the funds (or use it's own, with permission) to explore optin' outta "No Clild Left Behind"... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 22 Jul 07 - 11:38 PM Bobert: They got the funds. What does the Supreme court decision have to do with the inefficiency of DC schools? Washington DC public schools spend an average of $12046 per student each year. Spending per secondary school student (Latest available) by country #1 Switzerland: $9,348.00 per student #2 Austria: $8,163.00 per student #3 United States: $7,764.00 per student #4 Norway: $7,343.00 per student #5 Denmark: $7,200.00 per student #6 France: $6,605.00 per student #7 Italy: $6,458.00 per student #8 Germany: $6,209.00 per student #9 Japan: $5,890.00 per student #10 Australia: $5,830.00 per student #11 Sweden: $5,648.00 per student #12 Netherlands: $5,304.00 per student #13 United Kingdom: $5,230.00 per student #14 Israel: $5,115.00 per student #15 Portugal: $4,636.00 per student #16 Spain: $4,274.00 per student #17 Ireland: $3,934.00 per student #18 Greece: $3,287.00 per student #19 Czech Republic: $3,182.00 per student #20 Hungary: $2,140.00 per student #21 Thailand: $1,177.00 per student source |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 23 Jul 07 - 12:42 AM You're statistics mean absolutely nothing. "Public school revenue and expenditures vary by school district but Washington DC public schools spend an average of $12,046 per student each year." Expenditures vary by district and if you look at the median price of houses in each area, you can just about guess where the majority of the funding goes. I believe that socio-economic class has far more to do with the quality of the neighborhood school. Lets face it, if you have enough money to buy a home in an upscale neighborhood, it doesn't matter what colour your skin might be, you will be given an excellent education in the same school as your neighbor's kids. If you are rich enough, the colour of your skin is not a barrier to anything. Thats why I think discussion of racial differences is a dead-end. Its your socio-economic class that makes a difference. It all depends on where you can afford to live. Mixed (affordable) housing should be available in every neighborhood and there should be no barriers based on race. This can be planned at the city level and funded by all levels of government. The integration of schools will take care of itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 07 - 12:52 AM "Mixed (affordable) housing should be available in every neighborhood...." Impossible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Jul 07 - 07:50 AM Lots of interesting reading in the M.Ted linked Supreme Court documents. Essentially, the court didn't change anything -- its ruling was consistant with the Constitution AND previous rulings. It just found that -- IN THAT CASE -- the Seattle schools were doing it wrong. One of the most telling and egregious errors made was in racial classifications that over-simplified it to "White and Non-white" or "Black and "Other"". What the #$%%^& ?! So the only meaningful distinctions to the Seattle-ites was whether a student was black?! ...in a country -- and especially a region of that country -- with more races than you could shake a very big stick at?! If you were black, how could you be anything but offended? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:06 AM A strict constructionist court sees that, according to the constitution, Friday the 13th must occur on the 13th of the month, and must also be on a Friday. When a case comes before such a court because some plaintiff wishes to cast spells, or walk their black cat only on Friday the 13th, but finds the few Friday the 13ths that occur during a year overly-limiting to their chosen activity, a strict constructionist court rules against them. They see no other choice because it is not the court's Contitutional right to change the Constitution. It can only rule on the Constitution AS WRITTEN AND DULY LEGISLATED. The spell-casters and cat walkers go away mad but the Constitution keeps its "teeth". An activist court sees that people wish to walk their black cats and cast their spells and they see no harm in the activities. So they rule that Friday the 13th could, heretofor, occur on either Thursday or Saturday. The 13th may also occur on the 12th or the 14th of the month. It's not the Supreme Court's right to arbitrarily decide to re-write the Constitution just because they think it is too limiting or wrong. If they think it is wrong....or the cat walkers think it is wrong....they must go back to the Legistlative branch to have the Constitution changed to make Friday the 13th occur on a day other than Friday the 13th. And the people don't IMPEACH a supreme court justice just because he rules Constitutionally. If the people don't like the Constitution, they have the right to change IT -- not the make up of the Supreme Court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 23 Jul 07 - 11:54 AM Q - Nothing is impossible. What it would take is a national housing policy that pertains to all new housing developments. All new housing developments could include mixed income housing and/or not for profit housing. When you say its impossible, you are actually saying there is no will to make it so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 07 - 01:15 PM Impossible? No will to make it so? Both true. A home is an investment for most who move to home ownership; they try to buy in a neighborhood that will hold or increase in value, hence one in which the people who will be their neighbors hold similar values and similar life styles. We live in a capitalist country; those who work to climb the ladder succeed, those who don't remain behind in public housing or trailer parks. As Leo J. Hindley, successful manager of an equity fund is quoted as saying about the well-to-do (The New York Times, July 15, 2007, "The Richest of the Rich, Proud of a New Gilded Age," Louise Uchitelle), "I think there are people, including myself at certain times in my career, who because of their uniqueness warrant whatever the market will bear." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 23 Jul 07 - 01:55 PM "While the Supreme Court ruling makes voluntary school desegregation efforts more challenging, much can be done to integrate our housing markets and, therefore, to assure healthier, more diverse classrooms." http://www.knowledgeplex.org/news/603371.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM A typical brainless socialist statement. Impossible in our society, as you well know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jul 07 - 05:53 PM Bite me, Dickey... First you ask me stupid questions that I ignore and you get all rightuosly indignant... Then you ask me a reasonable question that I did answer and you get righteously indignant... Find yerself another hobby other tha harrassing me with yer juvilineist posts... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 24 Jul 07 - 01:13 AM A typical response from another priveleged brat who thinks he's 'entitled'. "People who don't own property shouldn't be allowed to vote- they don't know how to take care of it and make it grow." - Q |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:34 AM Yeah, I think that diversifying neigborhoods is a noble goal but fear that the sme folks who don't wnat their kids to have to school with black kids will use the same arguments to keep black folks out of their communities... I mean, ahhhhhm their are am,ot of people like that... Okay, maybe in the folkie world things seem to be a tad rosier but that's because in the folkie world their isd a greaster degree of enlighentment than in the general population... Yeah, the folkie world does not mirror the general population... Just look around Mudcat, fir instance... I think it represnts the folkie world rather well and look at the number of folks here, for instance, who are Bush supporters??? Or have been Bush supporters... Not many... Certainly not even close to the number of folks it would take on a percentage basis to get an election close enough for Bush's thugs to steal... So, yeah, I would love to see our communities and neighborhoods more intergrated but it just ain't ghappening on a large scale and in some places, not at all... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:57 AM I was not aware that you could harass someone by asking questions Bobert. All I want to know is why the DC school system performs so poorly when they spend 50% more per student than the national average and if the supreme court has anything to do with it. You like to make broad sweeping incendiary staements but when it comes down to facts to support your statements you get hostile and have to resort to personal put downs. During 50+ years of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, has the DC school system improved due to that decision? Maybe it is time for a new approach. And by the way it was Democrats, such as Wallace, Faubus and Bull Connor, that fought integration laws. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 24 Jul 07 - 09:08 AM Bobert, the only person on this thread who has even HINTED that they liked some segregation was the only black person participating herein. It was Azizi who said... "Three years later, at the start of a new school year, I was seated at the Black table. Why? I was SICK of the "what do Black people want?" and "Do Black people get sun tans" and a host of other assorted questions, some well meaning, and some not. I was also tired about not studying anything about me or MY PEOPLE except in reference to dysfunction families and dysfunctional community systems in sociology classes. I wanted to hang with Black people so I could shoot the breeze using words and sayings and cultural references that I did not have to explain. I wanted to kick back and relax and just be me. And so I sat at the lunch table with other Black students instead of sitting at the "integrated table". And that was just what the doctor [in me] ordered at that time and in that space." It isn't about whites wanting to segregate from blacks. It is quite often, and for their own reason, blacks who wish to segregate themselves. Recent studies have shown that, contrary to the "diversity" model that has been pushed on us as "better" for education, actually blacks in their own controlled schools are doing better academically without all the social engineering pressure that requires them to excel in a cultural setting that is an obstacle to their better learning. Y'know, the etymology of the word "Homophobic" has been lost to a lot of political rhetoric and has now come to mean something closer to "hating gays". But its origin was in the notion that the reason people disliked gays was that they were "homophobic" -- that is, they feared that they themselves were gay, and hence, tried ever harder to distance themselves from "gayness". Are you sure you aren't just a little "racistophobic"? Me thinks thou doest protest just a little too much for normal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 24 Jul 07 - 12:55 PM "So, yeah, I would love to see our communities and neighborhoods more intergrated but it just ain't ghappening on a large scale and in some places, not at all..." - bobert The only way it will happen is if the city-planners make it happen by including mixed-income (affordable) housing in every neighborhood. Its not impossible. I don't think we can socially engineer integration but we can remove barriers. In fact, rather than discriminate on the basis of colour, those who wish to integrate, can. In Vancouver there are no neighborhoods based on colour. There are shopping areas that cater to specific cultures but the people live wherever they can afford to live. In some of our wealthiest areas, it is predominately Iranian or Chinese. As development occurs, affordable housing is mixed in with high-end residences. So far, nobody but the developers are protesting. Of course, this is not the deep South but I think it will also improve access to equal educational opportunities. Funding to schools will be more equitable and people will have choices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:06 PM You are right, d... It is possible and thru comprhensive plans communities can do it... Problem is that city planners do what they are told... So if the will ain't there then their bosses, iusually town or city councils, ain't gonna tell 'um to do it... I really hate to say it but this is the real world... In Luray, Va. there is the black section and the rest is the white section... Benn that way for a long, long time... I know the town council and I know the town manager and I know that they are not going to tell the town planner to do anything like what you have suggested... Might of fact, I was asked to book a blues band from D.C. and never once gave any thou7ght to race so I booked the best blues band I knew of... They are black... Last weekend I was playin' at the local farmer's market and someone who had recieved a promo pic of the band came up to me and hasseled me about bookin' a black band??? This, unfortunately, is the real world in lots of communities accress the country... Now as for you, Dickey... First of all, you need to study up on your American History... The Dixiecrats were nuthin' but a bunch of racists... They were Klansmen... They represented hate, hate and more hate... And what are you trying to say about the D.C. school sysytem??? Hey, have I ever defended either the black or Democratic administering of the D.C. school system in the past??? No, I haven't... Might of fact, I think it was you who I offerd to pick up at the airport and give you a little tour of D.C. in regards to poverty.... No, if you'd friggin' read what I say rather than invent what I say then you wouldn't have all these questions whioch aren't really questions at all but, for the most part, juvinilistic attacks on me... And John, It's always easy to say, "Hey, them niggas just don't want to hang with us..." I've heard this crap since the 60's... Well, this ain't just a black problem or a white problem... It's an intergral part of intergration... Yeah, their is curiousty... Their is a certain clumsiness... But that goes with the teritory... The alternative is segregation... Hey, we've have close to 400 years segregation... If you are for segregation then fine... Just say it... I'd respect that alot more than trying to hide what you feel behind alot of legal mumbo jumbo and red herrings... In regards to the Robert's decision, Justice Breyer said "To invalidate the plans under review is to threaten the promise of Brown, The purality's position, I fear, would break the promise..." Go argue with him or tell me why you think you understand the law more than him... Then Justice Breyer said, "It's not often in the law that so few have so quickly changed so much..." I concur with both of those statements... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:56 AM "Last weekend I was playin' at the local farmer's market and someone who had recieved a promo pic of the band came up to me and hasseled me about bookin' a black band???" - bobert I'm sorry to hear that, bobert. I had no idea that people in North America could be so backward and ignorant. In Vancouver, we have a process called community visioning. As citizens, we get together with the planners and decide what we want our neighborhoods to look like in the next twenty years. That includes housing, traffic, parks, businesses, etc. Of course there are always developers who try to push the envelope but luckily, there are enough of us who are active and vocal. It seems to me that it is the ignorant and short-sighted people of the U.S. who are electing the politicians. Maybe democracy wasn't such a good idea after-all. Maybe thats why the U.S. is crumbling. When will they realize that hatred is destructive to everyone, not just the target. Its like they are eating themselves alive. I guess you can say they deserve it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:11 AM Just did a little googling about schools in the States and found that one of the reasons that academics suffer is because in the 'poorest' schools many of the teachers are not certified. Whats up with that? The American taxpayer can afford billions for a senseless war but they think so little of their children that they don't even hire certified teachers! What do think school is, a babysitting service? Whats it take to become certified anyway? In Canada, a bachelor of education takes about five years, including a year of professional development. You mean to tell me that there are people teaching your kids that do not have the credentials? You call that education? Shame! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 25 Jul 07 - 01:21 AM Bobert: I read what you friggin said and it said nothing about what effect the Supreme Court's decision will have on anything. It is just a bunch of racist, biggoted crap about Jim Crow and has nothing to do with the present. It is designed to stir up an argument over nothing just like a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton speech. Hate Hate Hate. Yeah drag that SOB Roberts out here and let's lynch him right here and now. And I don't need to fly into my old stomping grounds, 30 miles away sosomeone with a 1960's mentality can try to reconstitue and stir up shit that dried up 20 years ago. Any effect that Brown VS Board could have done or did do has taken effect long ago snd it's time for a diffrent approach. If integration has not proceed to satisfy you, why don't you set a good example for all of us and move down to 14th and U street? You sir are the racist because you insist on treating people of different races differently. As in "If you are white you have to go to this school and if you are black you have to go to that school" It is the constant, hateful accusations like yours that promotes the hostility that keeps people segregated. Maybe after your generation dies off, things will settle down and we will be truely integrated rather than the artificial, forced integration that causes the racial hatred you thrive on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:13 AM Bobert, I find this... " It's always easy to say, "Hey, them niggas just don't want to hang with us..." INCREDIBLY offensive. I NEVER <<<<<------ARE YOU READING THIS?! ...I mean NEVER use the "N" word. NEVER. Your implication that I do, or that I even think of blacks in those terms is, again, INCREDIBLY offensive. Get over yourself and your self-righteous bigotry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: artbrooks Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:52 AM Dianavan, under the "No Child Left Behind" law, certified has taken on a whole new meaning. All teachers must have, at the minimum, a baccalaureate, and that is no change. This difference is the subject-matter requirement: to teach History, for example, the teacher must have a history degree; English, an English degree and so forth. This is in addition to the individual's credentials as a teacher. A person with an Education BA who has been teaching history for the past twenty years can continue to do so, but he or she can no longer be "certified" in the subject without returning to college and taking at some subject-matter courses (in the copious free time available to the typical teacher). As you can visualize, this is a major problem at smaller schools where an individual may teach classes in more than one discrete subject. It seems ridiculous to me that I, with a couple of degrees in history but no public school teaching experience, would have an easier time getting certified to teach that subject at the secondary school level than a person who has been teaching high school history for his entire lifetime but whose degree is in public education! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:57 AM "It seems ridiculous to me that I, with a couple of degrees in history but no public school teaching experience, would have an easier time getting certified to teach that subject at the secondary school level than a person who has been teaching high school history for his entire lifetime but whose degree is in public education!" In all honesty, why? You're "seems ridiculous" assertion assumes: 1) That the teacher who has been "Teaching...history for his entire lifetime" has been doing so successfully. 2) Your knowledge and experience as a lifetime learner would stand you in poor stead as a teacher. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Jul 07 - 10:15 AM "2) Your knowledge and experience as a lifetime learner would stand you in poor stead as a teacher." If you were teaching graduate classe to adults at a university, the kinds of degrees that artbrooks seems to be talking about would be perfectly in order. But if you are teaching young children, the difficult art of teaching, and a knowledge of human development is more important. You are normally teaching American History, or State/Regional History, so an extensive knowledge of ancient Persia wouldn't do you a lot of good. |
