BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 03:02 AM

Musket,You claimed I told you " I have no right questioning the bible and other such nonsense."

Not on any thread.
A deliberate lie.
Why do you need to make up shit like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:48 AM

Why question science? Better to question translations of fairy stories.

In reality, you are relying on commentary of historians in your stance. I am by any definition a scientist. I may not think of myself as such these days but the research, the doctorate etc puts my take on scientific claims at the level of the historian not the sad old man dragging it out of context. Further up this thread, Steve Shaw gives an excellent definition of scientific research. It isn't the same as a newspaper editor asking a hack for a serialised take on war that fits their readership profile.

That's why.

You really are weird. Your logic is that because I doubt the objectiveness of a political journalist who writes a history book or two, I shouldn't agree with scientific research?

When I first came across you I thought you were literate and could tie your own shoelaces. Ok, you wore your agenda on your sleeve and was a bit right wing. No problem till you started insulting people's intelligence to push your outlook on life.

Quick! Look! Over there! That's a straw that is.   If you are quick enough you can grasp it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:35 AM

In reality, you are relying on commentary of historians in your stance

Correct.
That is rational behaviour.
You reject the findings of historians, choosing instead to believe a narrative based on your own personal perspective.

That is exactly analogous to what the fundamentalists do, and you ridicule them for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:43 AM

It isn't the same as a newspaper editor asking a hack for a serialised take on war that fits their readership profile.

I have produced pages of documented history, mostly from the BBC History site, but from numerous other historians also.

In amongst all that was an essay by military historian Sir Max Hastings, based on his latest book, which happened to get published in the Mail.
Also a review of the book by another eminent military historian in the Telegraph.

Why the need to lie Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 07:29 AM

Science and history are two entirely different things. The findings in science rely on repeatable and measurable experimentation. The findings in history rely on the writings and recollection of that most imperfect organism - Man. Let us take an example. Various miners strikes. Do we believe that the miners were 'reds under the beds' or that the government were oppressing the workers. Both stories have been reported. As an historian which do you put in your book?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:38 AM

As an ex miner I was and still am a dirty rotten stinking capitalist.

That said, I was arrested and let off before being processed for violent behaviour and possible ABH. What happened was, I was in the queue for the food hamper at the Miners Welfare, as we had a baby so qualified for the charity of others. Some lads who claimed to be from SWP, but not miners came into the car park and goaded some policemen nearby to fight.   Some of us decided to join in.

We beat the crap out of the agitators. Confused Plod (Merseyside that week) started changing their attitude after that.

Of course, in history you were either a blind faith communist or a capitalist lackey breaking the strike.

In reality, we were people who couldn't understand why the government wanted to destroy us and our union wanting to effect a change of government using us as a tool rather than the ballot box.

The history according to Th*tcher would be very different to that written by Scargill. His conveniently brushes over when we at college kept on our courses which upset some animals who told us not to go. We told them to bollocks. A week later a piece of paper was pushed through my letterbox saying at what time my wife pushed the pram to her mother's house each day.

Like I say, history accounts reflect the prejudice of the writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:00 PM

A historian will study contemporary documents and source material, and base his findings on verifiable facts.
His rivals will then scrutinise his work and expose any inadequacies or false conclusions.
Very much like Science.

As with Science there are often differences on some issues, but a consensus on others.

There is a consensus among historians about aspects of WW1.
I base my views on that.

Musket has been unable to find one historian to support his views.

Like a fundamentalist, that just makes him more adamant.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:29 PM

That's right. I can't find a single account of the war other than the ones you found. So every soldier was there for the right reasons, they were well led and nobody died through callous disregard for the men under their command.

Now, we can all go home and scrape butter over our crumpets whilst listening to The Archers and reading Rupert the Bear to our grand children.




Tell you what, co Messiah and associated gnome. Thread drift is one thing, but this dozy twat drifts his incoherent bilge between ruddy threads. I thought it was only Akenhateon who stalked me around the site, but this stalker is at least, in his own Col Blimp worshipping way, mostly harmless. Possibly a member of the human race too, other than the right wing tendencies and little England complex.

Do you think we could make him head of twisting reality? Other religions tend to have them, and when you see them on the telly they can be almost as irritating as Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:57 PM

That's right. I can't find a single account of the war other than the ones you found

But you still do not accept it.
Just like a fundy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 01:24 PM

A historian will study contemporary documents and source material, and base his findings on verifiable facts.

But there are so many verifiable facts, Keith. Ask 100 people for their version of events and you will get 101 different stories. Sorry, but science isn't like that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 01:39 PM

I am not an expert on evolution, but I bet there is debate about the fine detail.
I know that there are many versions of how the Universe began, and about its subsequent evolution.

As more information becomes available, the theories are improved or rejected.

There is consensus about many things.
We can be quite certain about the expansion and how ordinary matter was formed.
About 90% is not normal matter and we do not yet have consensus on what it is.

It really is like history.
If you want to know about history, a rational person reads the history books.
Musket rejects what they say, like the fundies reject the Science books

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM

If you want to know about history,a rational person reads the history books

Yes Keith, but which history books? Unlike scientific facts there are so many to chose from and so many that disagree with each other. Sorry but history and science are as similar as chalk and cheese.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM

Yeah, well Keith is bending over backwards here trying out his balanced-rational bit, appealing to historical scholarship, etc. But, if you've never seen it (and don't mind torturing yourself), do take a look at his contributions on any thread concerning Israel/Palestine. He's the absolute master of denial and revisionism. And don't even begin to think of engaging me on that topic in this thread, Keith. Resurrect one of the others if you like, but this is not about Israel/Palestine. It's all about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:36 PM


Yes Keith, but which history books? Unlike scientific facts there are so many to chose from and so many that disagree with each other.

No Dave.
There are Scientific facts and ongoing researches.
There is consensus and debate as in History.

On the issues we were discussing there is unanimity.
Consensus.
Like William the Bastard invaded in 1066.
No dispute, unless it is Musket, Greg, Jim and Don again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:22 AM

Err that list of mudcatters is a little longer than that Keith. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 04:56 AM

A guest called Troubadour with an unusual posting history.
None of you have found a single historian to support your views, because they are false.

Everything I say is supported by all of them, because I formed my views by reading history.
Yours derive from your politics.
You make up your own history to suit your preconceptions.
Lies actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:20 AM

You derive your views from reading?

When I asked you to look up and read the short essay available on many websites about peoples' sense of false servility, you said you didn't have time.

Obviously, anything written by Isaac Uminmassa is beneath you....



Anyway, back to the spirit of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:43 AM

"Everything I say is supported by all of them, because I formed my views by reading history."

One side's history only (with one German exception which chanced to agree with you).

Highly suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:48 AM

"A guest called Troubadour with an unusual posting history.
None of you have found a single historian to support your views, because they are false."

Unusual history. Did you get that from Max Hastings?

You haven't found any conflicting with YOUR views because you don't want to find any and haven't looked.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM

Not even his side. Many many UK commentators have described the events. He picks out the apologists for the establishment.

I used to read a lot of Isaac Asimov but I don't drag the laws of robotics into the real world....

(I read Viz too. Ivan Jelical is good, The Fat Slags are bang on and Sid the Sexist must have been a Geordie cousin of a bloke I used to work with down the pit. 8 Ace is really a bloke called Barrie who I used to drink with. Seriously, must be. Even his missus looks like her!)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 09:09 AM

I do not pick Musket.
Nothing else to pick from.

You haven't found any conflicting with YOUR views because you don't want to find any and haven't looked.

I have looked and I am quite sure all of you have tried to find something, anything, to contradict me.
Jim has now had weeks of frantic Googling.

You have found nothing between all of you.
That is because my views are based on historical fact, and yours are made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 09:57 AM

Co Messiah and associated gnome. Are you SURE you don't wish to try and recruit Keith?

Look at him. He's very good. All his views are factual and everybody else's are made up. Surely ideal fodder for furthering the bollocks religions need to carry out to survive?

By the way, if we do recruit him, don't let him go onto historynet.com or similar websites, he may see things that would fundamentally disturb his assured cocky posing. In fact, just set him up with a PC that can only access The Daily M*il and Her Majesty's Daily Telegraph. Otherwise, he might lose some of arrogance he is portraying, and then he'd be bloody useless to us as well as society in general.

We could use him to persecute a few Christians. He's good at that. Or at least he should be, he never stops rattling on about the subject..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 10:17 AM

Very good, but you can not find any history that supports your view.
Funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:15 PM

You have found nothing between all of you.
That is because my views are based on historical fact, and yours are made up.

Now don't go getting yourself all hysterical now, Keith.

By the way, anyone bothered to look up Keith's multifarious takes on Israel/Palestine? The absolute epitome of selectiveness and revisionism. Someone ought to do a thesis on him.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:42 PM

My views are calmly based on historical fact.
On ME threads, all I have ever done is put Israel's side of the story.
No fair minded person could object.
Why bring that up Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 06:04 PM

Because it gives abundant context to those people on this thread who might not have experienced your abysmal one-sided take on history. You have history, in other words, as it were. Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 10:40 PM

Dawkins finds religion.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-technology/johansson-photos-change-everything-says-dawkins-201109164314

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:04 AM

So you brought it up to try and discredit me Steve.
And you had to lie.
I really have only put Israel's side of the story.
Only Bobad and B Bruce do that compared to the swarms and swarms of you putting The anti-Israel line.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket and Keith Show
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:40 AM

Hang on. Can we drag it back a bit?

Wonderful as ever to have Keith joining this thread and I am sure we will all get the chance to welcome him personally as he settles into his role. He has joined us at an interesting time what with Jack and Ron having been quiet lately and I am sure Keith will plug that gap admirably.

Keith is the world's leading expert on military history, Israeli politics and Christian bleating.   Perhaps we can all help by drawing him more into the latter, saving his wisdom on the former two for the relevant threads? I am sure he will give us full entertainment value if we stick to God bothering.

After all, he has read all the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:38 AM

Like William the Bastard invaded in 1066. No dispute...

But that is not the only fact about the event 1s it Keith? There are hundreds of others and only the ones which fit that particular historians agenda get into his book. Of course there is debate and consensus in science as well but to suggest that history is the same is, at best, disingenuous.

Beside, who said their is no dispute? By saying it was in 1066 you are displaying bias towards the Christian ideology. By my reckoning it should be 947 BCM (Before Co-Messiahs)

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:01 AM

I can not agree.
Science says the Universe expanded from a singularity 14 billion years ago.
Consensus, but there is no consensus over the detail (inflation, string theory, etc.)

Likewise with 1066.

I made only 3 claims on the other thread.
1.Britain had no choice but to stand against the invading German armies.
No historian I am aware of disputes that.

2.People mostly volunteered because they accepted that.
That is shown from diaries, letters and recollections.

3.Despite disastrous mistakes as an entirely new form of warfare was learned, the army was generally well led.
Again I am not aware of any modern military historian disputing that.

Musket and co. challenge all three because they need to.
No evidence.
Just like the fundies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:27 AM

Well, disagreement is fine and I am happy to accept that people will disagree with my views. Bringing other threads that I, and a number of other people, have not read, is beyond me I'm afraid so I have no choice but to discontinue that discussion. I am not an all knowing deity I'm afraid...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:38 AM

Science says the Universe expanded from a singularity 14 billion years ago.

Where did you read that gem? Daily M*ail? Science says nothing. People employ the scientific method to reach conclusions from evidence. Most evidence points to the Big Bang as the most likely explanation for the origin of the universe. But there are gaps. No-one of scientific leaning is saying that there was a Big Bang. We're saying that the evidence points that way. That's the difference 'twixt us and the God Squad. We don't deal in certainties.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:39 AM

We discussed the fundamentalists' dismissal of scientific evidence on this thread.
I just made the comparison of Musket dismissing historical evidence in the same way, when he ridiculed the fundies.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:44 AM

Steve, the expansion is an established fact.
There is debate about the details.
As you say, "gaps."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 07:20 AM

No-one of scientific leaning is saying that there was a Big Bang.
Er, yes they do.
I am a subscriber to New Scientist and have been for years.
It is referred to all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM

People of scientific leaning say there probably was a Big Bang, according to the evidence we have available. People who say there was a Big Bang are not people of scientific leaning. I would never assume that popular science magazines are infested exclusively by people of scientific leaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:08 AM

Well the scientists who write in New Scientist write of the bang as an established fact.
They do.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM

And if you take the wrapper off, you might wish to read it.

The Big Bang is the most likely event that can account for what we can observe and deduce. The "age" of the universe as a reference point is continuously being updated, not to age the universe as such but to give perspective to distance.

As I say, if you take the wrapper off and get someone to read it to you, you might eventually notice that. You may also realise what utter bollocks you are talking when trying to make me look a cunt. If you put as much effort into it as you do making yourself look stupid, you might get somewhere.

By the way, look down, about two inches to the side of your left foot. That is where the singularity began. Not that it was a singularity before the Big Bang because the Big Bang, as far as we can understand at present, didn't happen. But it possibly did, or nothing fits. To happen, there has to be a time before it happened, and that is where the grown ups see a problem. Time as an absolute in the observable universe is a result not a factor of the Big Bang.

In the beginning, there was no beginning......

So... Tell us all about this word consensus you keep using. Any chance of slipping it into a sentence where it is appropriate?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:13 AM

The Big Bang
Timeline of the universe - big bang expansion over 13.7 billion years. © NASA / WMAP Science Team
By Marcus Chown, cosmology consultant for New Scientist

What was the Big Bang?

About 13.7 billion years ago, the Universe burst into being in a titanic explosion called the Big Bang. Out of the expanding and cooling debris eventually congealed the galaxies, great islands of stars of which our own Milky Way is one.

How do we know there was a Big Bang?
......
http://royalsociety.org/news/metro/the-big-bang/

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:16 AM

I really do not try to make you look a cunt, but I can't stop you can I.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:23 AM

Stephen Hawking (what does he know Musket?

"At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity."
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 08:40 AM

People who say there was a Big Bang are not people of scientific leaning.

Not Hawking then.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 09:23 AM

Really?

And who said there was no Big Bang ?

Who said there was no singularity ?

Who said the present estimate in time was other than 13.7 billion years ?


So quick to try and look smug, you show here how you read what you want to read rather than what is actually said.

I do apologise for catching you out in an old trick one of my lecturers taught us, relying on fools to just pick up on key words rather than their context.

Obviously, this blind wish to have things say what you want them to say negates the usefulness of taking anything you say seriously. But we know that from your hilarious track record of saying something odd then quoting sources that often contradict you anyway.

Is it just you or does Hertford have a commune of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 09:27 AM

Keith laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 09:34 AM

Just to remind ~~

I once, some years ago, OPd a thread called "What went Big Bang?", which ran for quite a while (Sep 09 - Nov 12):

To summarise ---

Answer came there none.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 10:49 AM

Don't worry Keith.

As they say...

He who laughs last doesn't understand the joke.






Michael. If the Big Bang happened in the forest, we might not hear it anyway as the jury is out on whether it makes a sound. Mind you, if I wanted to know what went Big Bang, a group of folk music aficionados might not be the first group I would ask?

In "A brief History of Time" Prof. Hawking does point out it is metaphor, in the same way as relating the occurrence to a point in time. For time to have meaning, position must too, giving us a four dimensional reference. Hawking notes that as the first three dimensions are irrelevant, (it occurred everywhere and is expanding from everywhere) therefore the final dimension, time, has no significance.

The 13.7 billion years relates to a theoretical starting point of entropy, and not to an explosion of the sort that would have my dog wake up barking.

In order to explain it to people who either don't buy or haven't figured out how to take the wrapper off New Scientist, such constructs are necessary. I'm about as qualified as you can get in my particular physics interest, but I can't get beyond requiring the comfort blanket of big bangs and time, and I suspect that goes for us all, the good Prof included.

(I buy it to look at the pretty pictures of course.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 11:37 AM

"That is shown from diaries, letters and recollections."

If, and only if, you call all who didn't agree liars, which is, without doubt what you do.

You do the same with Israel, putting only the one side and calling the other side liars and murderers when many more Palestinians have been, and still are being, killed by IDF than vice versa.

Your idea of balance is "My side is right, so I won't look at contrary evidence".

Funny that!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 11:51 AM

Thank you, Ian. That was a much better, more helpful answer than I ever got on that old thread - "Beginning of entropy" quite an apprehensible concept.

As to appropriateness of asking on this forum ~~ tho peopled by folkies, many of them have other interests & qualifications too. Why, I was even a theatre critic too, way back in the day... So ask me about Æschylus or Noel Coward or Pirandello or Corneille or Beaumont·&·Fletcher, why dontcha, and see how well I can waffle...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:43 PM

1100!

I was very fond of my Morris 1100.

Michael, I wasn't commenting on the expertise of fellow mudcatters, especially as this thread alone has regular scientists, teachers and wringer outers for one armed window cleaners... Just that with the usual suspects, myself included, weighing in on any subject, you aren't going to get anywhere with such weighty matters! After all, one whiff of this subject and Keith looks up two quotes and makes his mind up, about as neatly as I make my bed....

Beginning of entropy as a concept is in itself abstract. As entropy is why the second law of thermodynamics holds, then the arrow of time has to be in one direction. The Big Bang is based on grabbing hold of the string attached to said arrow of time and following it back to where it started.

My needing to understand such matters ended in 1999 when my own research into vibration came to a sort of conclusion. (Fascinated to see one of my equations has been thrown in the bin. I was on his viva panel.)

Of course, Keith may already be looking up two more quotes to put me down and I may be peddling in made up shit. Beauty is, however, in the eye of the beholder.


(He may not. The lazy sod still hasn't looked up that essay on servility to your betters by Isaac Uminmassa that I asked him to read.)




Do you think Noël Coward enjoyed or regretted his swansong in the Italian Job?