Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

And, to contribute a little bit of thread drift to the discussion, is there any practical way to prevent bagpipers from ever playing this?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:39 PM

Talking about 'reasoned discussion' in one breath while in
the next playing the 'Hitler card' strikes me as an exercise
in studied rhetorical irony...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:40 PM

Murray, that's a great point. And to the extent that folks admit to discomfort about enjoying a Hitler hit, they acknowledge the legitimacy of my original question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:45 PM

It is a far cry from "being naive" about the song's origin to require others to think about slavery 200 years ago whenever they sing it. Are you asking them to ignore its spiritual statements, and disregard the elegant simplicity of its tones, and ignore the elegance of its structure?

Here's an idea: how about granting others the right to place their attention where they please? As I said up thread if you feel obligated to think of certain things when hearing certain songs, do so, and act accordingly, but recognize that this is your own personal choice or idiosyncrasy, not something you have some right to impose on another. Why try to make a requirement out of such a thing?

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:18 PM

As long as one is generally aware of slavery and the multiplicity of other such crimes against humanity, I don't really see that the specific knowledge that Amazing Grace was written by a slave trader, or that the operatic tetralogy, The Ring of the Nibelungen was written by a person who, among other things, was anti-Semitic does anything of value. Newman and Wagner are both dead. Focusing on the unadmirable characteristics of these two people doesn't decrease slavery or anti-Semitism in any way.

The only thing such a focus accomplishes is that it taints one's own enjoyment of otherwise fine works of art.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:22 PM

. . . "Newton," that is. . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:45 PM

"but recognize that this is your own personal choice or idiosyncrasy, not something you have some right to impose on another. Why try to make a requirement out of such a thing?" Amos.

Jeez, Amos. . . will you quit feeling like I'm some Nazi trying to "impose" stuff on you? Get it straight: no "requirements" are being imposed, proposed, pronounced, advocated, legislated, or otherwise decreed here. OK?

Don, great point. And if you really think that, then you will have ZERO concerns about enjoying, performing, recording, sharing, and otherwise propagating a lovely little piece of music composed by Adolf Hitler (Murray's point above.) Is that the case? Consistency requires that you say "yes." Otherwise, you'll have some explaining to do :-) But your point is a great one. It has gotten me thinking, much as this entire thread has. I am eager to hear your reply to my question.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:14 AM

Steve Baughman -- If you've just found out that Newton was a slave trader, you're the one who has been naive--the song's history, and the man's history have not been kept secret--I can only conclude that, for some reason or another, you've chosen to avoid the details of the history of Slavery, and, possibly even the racism that necessarily went along with it.

As an educated, American adult, and a legal professional, you should have started to deal with this a long time ago. A little bit of revulsion is good for you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:32 AM

Hi Ted. Actually, I have know for a long time that Newton was a slave trader, it's just that I believed he had written ths song right after the dramatic conversion at sea and then given up slave trading in response to that conversion. (Incidentally, you'll find that I am not the only one who has fallen prey to believing this myth.) I only later learned that he kept up the slave trade until he couldn't any more. That's not the Newton I thought we all knew and loved.

I hope you'll forgive me for not having all these facts down earlier. And I'll forgive you for making assumptions about my state of knowledge.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:35 AM

I said " If you've just found out that Newton was a slave trader, you're the one who has been naive."   A conditional statement--and since you haven't just found out, the condition isn't met, and we're both off the hook;-)

Looking at my comment, it seems more harsh than I meant to be--my point wasn't meant to be personal judgement--

it was just a reflection on the fact that :
A)a man who had done many odious things did a great thing,
B) that we remember many men who did great and odious things,and
C)to make things easy, we lean toward ignoring one or the other--which, we really shouldn't do--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:37 AM

Joe, I can tell you, it's real.

Did you know that Newton himself was captured and held as a slave for a period of time until he escaped? Haven't seen that mentioned. Did you know that slavery has thousands of years of history and social and cultural acceptability. The "NOW" generation always seems to pass judgment on the previous generation(s) because the "NOW" generation is so superior.

Please don't think that I am condoning slavery. I find it as one of the most odious institutions. I'm thinking of primarily the enslavement of Africans as the work engines of the incipient industrial revolution. Slavery was practiced by the American Indians and virtually every ancient society. Slavery practiced by the Israelites provided a means of protecting and nourishing the indigent and freedom was granted after 7 years. If the slave asked and his lord agreed he could become that person's slave for life. It was somewhat akin to adoption. Roman slavery could be much harsher but some Roman slaves were quite important people and held positions of power. Women were not even considered people unless they were married. They were chattel, property. A "loose" woman had but one source of income. Also throughout history multiple marriage has been the norm. It's amazing what culturally tinted glasses allow us to see.

As for the song Amazing Grace, in and of itself, it is about Christian conversion. It is the revelation of, first, the self as seen by God. And it is a revelation OF God to the person who has been apprehended with the goods, red handed and totally guilty and desperately in need of forgiveness, salvation. That salvation is afforded in the person of Jesus Christ Who has paid the penalty for our sins. And most of all, it is about God's love and forgiveness which changes lives. That's Grace, unmerited favor with God. You can't do anything to earn it. If you could then Christ's death would have been unnecessary. It's a free gift available to any and all who acknowledge him (Jesus) as God's remedy for Mankind's lost situation. Not lost? Don't worry about it then. Christianity is not for you. As Christ told the pharisees, he came to seek and to save those who were lost.

Christian salvation or conversion doesn't instantly make you perfect, at least not in this world. It does set one's feet upon a new path and there are a lot of growing pains along the way. You are not perfect, just forgiven. You can get up and keep going after you may have stumbled or fallen. You understand that there is a real personal opposition to you and that you have just now begun the real battle against evil. "Through many dangers, toils and snares". You find that people you once couldn't stand to be around are now your best friends and allies. You'll find that some of your old friends will distance themselves from you. This includes family members and other folk you thought you knew. You find some people think you're nuts or need a make-believe friend to get you through life, and on and on. And through it all you will find that it is God who is faithful and not you because it is HIS Grace that saves you. It is a gift. That's what grace is. Thank Him if you know Him and keep on. It truly is amazing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 01:54 AM

"it was just a reflection on the fact that :
A)a man who had done many odious things did a great thing,
B) that we remember many men who did great and odious things,and
C)to make things easy, we lean toward ignoring one or the other--which, we really shouldn't do-- "

All points well taken, Ted. No hard feelings. Jeez, I can't even say I disagree with you.

As for your comments, Slag, that's a whole new subject. I'll just say that I fail to see what's so "amazing" about the kind of grace you speak of. I have never seen any difference between the kind of Christian conversion you describe and a general maturing process of the sort that Newton himself perhaps made, and that most of us make as we start acumulating more life experience. Yes, I get that Christians are fond of saying that their conversion is supernaturally effected, but that's going beyond the evidence. Their conversions bring about changes that are no more fundamental than the changes experienced by those who convert to non-Christian religions, have near death experiences, fall in love, have a profound travel experience, discover Rumi, etc. etc. etc. Nuthin' "amazing" about that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:23 AM

Steve, you've started a great discussion, so don't lose heart.
By the way, I wish more people would discover Rumi. Perhaps it would help them learn to be a bit more tolerant.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:46 AM

There has to be a limit, for practical purposes, to how much consideration should be given to the character of the artist when judging a work of art. Heck, I'll be even more general: The same applies for any act.

An act of kindness or charity is not invalidated by the character of the person. Even criminals can be good parents or good friends to someone. In the UK, there is increasing resistance to the tabloids' raking up the past of politicians (before they entered politicas, or when they were teenagers, for example) in a frenzy to create headlines.

The act should stand and get judged on its own merits. Does it though? The recipient of a gift may consider how rich the donor is and judge it of a higher worth of the donor is poor. That is not judging the act, but the discomfort of the donor - not the same thing.

It's symbolism that gets in the way of clear thinking. A song may be symbolic of something, or used symbolically by a certain group of people, with which we do not want to be associated; the temptation is to drop it. In a sense it depends on our own moral strength to withstand unfair or unjust comparisons.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:27 AM

Sufism is a WAY of being religious. For sure. A very worthwhile study. As for conversion: life changing, viewpoint altering experiences, while not "common" are familiar to all races, creeds and tribes. The Buddha under the Bo Tree, for example. I wasn't trying to be mutually exclusive but I was speaking from personal experience. I can readily relate to similar profound experiences of other. There are many, many points in common to each.

The other point I attempted to make was that we cannot judge a work of art or a good deed by the character of the person who does the art of performs the deed. And, one should always be careful in judging someone without really knowing or understanding the context of their life and historical situation. Each age, each era has its own standard of truth and general idea of what is right and wrong. Some of these standards appear to be universal and timeless e.g. it is wrong to murder. Others, like polygamy are more nebulous or have the weight of history behind it. Judge "Amazing Grace" for it's internal logic, its own beauty. If it doesn't speak to you try "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag"! And don't be afraid to appreciate something just because the originator may have a skeleton or two in the closet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:51 AM

When people are involved in some institutionalisd evil, and come to recognise this, there are two ways of dealing with it. One is to find a way of removing themselves from it, and the other is to try to reduce the damage being done to people, which may mean continued involvement.

It isn't always obvious that the former way is the right way or the best way. Would it really has been best if Oskar Schindler had cut all his connections with the Nazi machine and with the slave factories?

Deciding how to act in that kind of situation must be extraordinarily hard, especially when personal selfish motivations can be entangled with sincere attempts to make things better than they would otherwise be. As was the case with Schindler - and very probably with John Newton.

I don't think we should pride ourselves on the clean hands we have done nothing to clean, and rush to easy judgements about how others have dealt with these things.

And we shouldn't be too confident that people in other times will not look at the things we are involved in in the world today and think that our hands are far from clean.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:25 AM

What about people that have affairs or leave their wife and kids? Not the noblest behaviour.
Does that stop me from enjoying and singing "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" or, "Turn Your Lights Down Low"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:59 AM

What sins will future generations see? Will it be the cars? The pollution? The processed foods? Fox News?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Grab
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:11 AM

There WAS a widespread awareness during Newton's time that slavery was NOT ok

No there wasn't. There were people who thought that it was bad, sure, but this isn't the same as "widespread awareness". In the US today, there are people who think it's bad for the environment to drive an SUV every day or run air conditioning in your house in summer instead of just opening windows and closing shutters, but it's safe to say that this isn't a "widespread awareness" in the US as a whole...

Slavery wasn't just legal then, it was actively supported by governments and the Catholic church. It was even supported by Africans themselves - as has previously been pointed out, Europeans were usually simply exporting African slaves who had already been captured and enslaved by other Africans.

Also consider the attitudes of the time. The press-gang was a widely-practised way of getting new recruits for the Army and Navy - essentially another form of slavery. Lower-class soldiers were basically thought of as subhuman cannon-fodder, and wars were started between the European nobility over trivial matters which resulted in massive slaughters of men. The unemployed ended up in forced labour in the workhouse - essentially another form of slavery - and even workhouses were an improvement on the previous situation, because at least they got some food and medical care, and women weren't forced into prostitution.

Basically, this wasn't a time when human rights featured very highly. So although we can criticise slavers by modern standards of morality, we're not in a position to judge them by the standards of *their* day.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:18 AM

Perhaps a more accessible example is that the Christmas carol
"Away in a Manger" was a no-no in Roman Catholic institutions
up until recently.

Why?

It was supposedly written by Martin Luther.

Sort of points up why the whole discussion is absurd. At some
point you get to where you toss out the Constitution of the
United States of America because a bunch of the guys who came
up with the underlying concepts and wrote and ratified it were
themselves, slaveholders. Note that when they figured out that
slavery was a bad idea, they amended it, rather than tossing it.

When they sing 'Amazing Grace' or play it on the pipes at a
fallen policeman's funeral, it isn't about Newton at all, his
conversion or failure to be genuine in same notwithstanding.

It's about the guy in the box.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:24 AM

This is the dumbest thread I have ever seen. What possible difference does it make? It is a beautiful hymn. I am sick of people who feel that we have to apologize for things our ancestors did and pander to whatever group it is that is whining and blaming acts committed hundreds of years ago for their own shortcomings. Slavery was a bad thing but I had nothing to do with it and I owe no one an apology for it. Political correctness or what ever it is called today, is ruining this country. We are what we are today, not what our ancestors were.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

I'm not sure any conversion or faith is absolute, and I like to imagine that the continued use of Amazing Grace is the continued trail of Newton's and anybody else's conversion and faith. That he was or wasn't entirely of pure heart isn't so much the matter as he apparently struggled somewhat with faith, and AG might just be the hope in his faith, however challenged. Better hope than doubt for any disciple.

It's far from my favourite hymn, though I don't dislike it, but it is so overused. If I had a penny for every time I've heard it on pennywhistle, pipes, mandolin, voice, organ...I could buy a slave.

Sing it or not, but judge not. There are many other hymns of dubious beginnings.

Fwiw.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Like Steve B., I knew that Newton was a reformed slaver trader, but assumed (or was led to believe) that he reformed at the time of his conversion experience, not years later.

So this is all very interesting, but I agree with those who vote for singing the song without regard for my judgement (or anyone's) of the composer's moral character.

But ~ again ~ this has been a very interesting and informative discussion.

PS, to GUEST,Volgadon: It had never occurred to me that "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" celebrated an audulterous love affair. I'll have to look up the lyrics for both songs you mentioned.

I neither condone nor practice adultery, but I do thoroughly enjoy singing songs that include sly references to such activity. A longtime favorite: "Ain't No Tellin'," John Hurt's version of the traditional "Pallet on the Floor.":

Don't you let my good gal catch you here (2x)
She might shoot you, might cut you and stob you too,
Ain't no tellin' just what she might do.
...
Make me a pallet, down soft and low
Make it where your husband will never know...

I no longer expect anyone among my listeners to take these lyrics seriously. (When I was single and much younger, well, things were a little different.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:21 AM

This song has so endeared itself to many people that its origin is likely of little consequence to most of them. I am certain that there are other examples of works created by men of less than noble lives and deeds that transcend those roots, so long as the works have redeeming social or spiritual value in and of themselves.

You could look at it, assuming you are a religious person, as the Lord pulling good works through the least likely of channels for reasons known only to Him (or Her?).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:51 AM

"And, to contribute a little bit of thread drift to the discussion, is there any practical way to prevent bagpipers from ever playing this?"

I tell you what, if I NEVER hear it on the bagpipes again, I'll be one happy camper. Like Wesley, I think it's an overdone song in spite of its enduring beauty, and one Mister and I won't sing unless someone specifically requests it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM

No, it's a hideous song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 02:06 PM

Ah, SO! I wondered how long it would take for this discussion to slide into the realm of the purely hypothetical. "A lovely little piece of music composed by Adolf Hitler."

Here's something to consider:   No person is the villain in his own movie.

I won't go through the murky convolutions of Adolf Hitler's beliefs, but they were colored by a number of factors, not the least of which was a liberal dose of Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy, especially Nietzsche's concept of the Ubermensche, or "Superman." He believed that the "Aryan Race" (in his mind, tall, blond Teutonic/Nordic types were that Aryan race (somewhat oblivious to the fact that he was neither tall nor blond), and that it was high time that all the human chaff was swept away so that the Übermensch could take his rightful place in the world. Compounding this was his belief (shared by many Germans at the time) that Germany got a bum rap after World War I and that the treaties were unfairly restrictive, so they should be rescinded or ignored.

Hitler thought he was doing the right thing.

Most of the world considers him to have been a murderous madman. The moral here is—it is never a good idea to put a person with irrational beliefs and a bellicose nature in charge of a country. (Ahem!)

If, during his lurid career, he turned his hand toward writing music, I would certainly listen to it, at least once, as a matter of curiosity. Whether or not I would perform it myself and "have ZERO concerns about enjoying, performing, recording, sharing, and otherwise propagating" it, however, would depend on an number of things, not the least of which would be the piece itself, independent of who the composer was.

The question is much too hypothetical to be taken seriously.

Besides,

The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interréd with their bones.
                      —Julius Caesar, Act 3, Sc. 2, William Shakespeare

Give the Devil his due.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

...So let it be with Hitler…
The noble Goering
Hath told you Hitler was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Hitler answered it….
Here, under leave of Goering and the rest,
(For Goering is an honourable man;
So are they all; all honourable men)
Come I to speak in Hitler's funeral….
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Goering says he was ambitious;
And Goering is an honourable man….

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:21 PM

We all know Hitler always had a song in his heart. Now that was a painter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:30 PM

I don't think the rest of the speech really applies. As you said, Murray, this is a purely hypothetical case. "Wildly hypothetical." And when we start positing such hypothetical situations, the discussion can go to ridiculous extremes and become pointless.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM

So, if we are to ignore good writing because of the author's occupation should we also refuse to praise the works of known criminals, soldiers, prostitutes, lawyers?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: peregrina
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:50 PM

So how did Amazing Grace achieve the kind of popularity that results in the risk of it becoming too-often heard?

There is some nice information about that in the notes to the Smithsonian Folkways CD "Jean Ritchie and Doc Watson at Folk City".

Paraphrasing...
the notes say that when Jean and Doc sang the song together in 1963 it was still little known.
Now I quote: "the version that is seminal to the current popularity of this song was that recorded Newport Folk Festival of 1963. The singers were Jean and Doc with Clint Howard, Fred Price, and Clarence Ashley. Issued on Vanguard records, their version was soon covered by..... [others]... that it was their setting of the old song that led to its popularity is easy enough to prove becuase they used the first verse as a chorus, something that had not been done before. The popular recordings that followed also used the first verse as a chorus and all show their clear and unmistakeable evidences that Doc, Jean, Clint, Fred and Tom [ie Clarence Ashley, his other name] were carefully heard by those who took up this song of faith and made it a household possession of all Americans."--Notes by Joe Wilson...

If you are tired of the tune of Amazing Grace, check out the slow air 'Mrs Jamieson's Favourite' which can be found at thesession.org

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 03:59 PM

I'm with Bonzo on this one - shame he wasn't thrown overboard before he got to write it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

It seems to me that most people will have an emotional reaction to any particular piece of music, whoever the composer might be. Same with paintings and sculpture. If we find out later that the creator of the piece was in some way flawed that really doesn't prevent us from feeling pleasure at experiencing their work. If our singing that song gives pleasure to others down the years who is to say that Newton's legacy was not good.

I can see where you are coming from Steve and can understand how you might feel. I think, though, that it is necessary to divorce the circumstances of the man's life from the beauty of the words of the song, which has comforted many over the years.

I had a work colleague in the 80's who would not listen to a certain singer because he was aware that the performer was homosexual. That guy denied himself a lot of good music simply because he did not like the singer's sexual orientation. That just seemed crazy to me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

You will join me in singing and dancing the Fuhrer's favourite tune:"Der Guten Tag Hop-Clop"! All right, key of E?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM

What jacqui.c said!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:17 PM

actually, I have to agree as well with jacqui c and Don.

thing is, I am irrationally prejudiced in favour of Steve Baughman just because he is such a bloody good guitarist ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM

This is a fascinating discussion, and even the 'rants' and sarcasm have been sufficiently modulated to allow it to continue without recourse to name-calling and other degeneration. Some excellent food for thought; repeatedly I find myself agreeing with at least part of what most posters have said. Thank you, Mudcatters!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:01 PM

Those of you who have read me at Mudcat know JotSC to be a pretty conservative fellow. Yet I own and still play hundreds of albums from the so-called 'folk scare' period. I'm in philosophical disagreement with many songs I play and enjoy (and I guess that means I disagree with the songwriter also). Generally I enjoy songs that have a more universal message rather than a specific one. But more than enjoying them, I take something from them that expands my way of thinking.

Frankly I don't care who wrote Amazing Grace, or what he was. I get chills listening to Judy Collins perform an a capella rendition of the song. I know where her heart is.

R. Strauss & Wagner were not performed in Israel for decades, but they now have been. If the Israel Philharmonic can play their music, I guess its alright for me to listen to it (not that I had let them influence me anyway).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

I never really felt that I was a wretch, but authorities differ.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM

One of the reasons I said the song is overplayed is because of the media.Whenever a funeral or memorial service makes the evening news you KNOW that someone is going to perform "Amazing Grace". It's as if the media thinks it's the only song that exists. You know there had to be several other songs or hymns performed at any service - but what always gets the air time? Amazing Grace. I've warned my wife that if it's sung at my funeral I'll come back and haunt her.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

To the point: "less than noble men..." is ALL of us. And that is exactly the message of the song. No one is perfect and we continue on because of the concept of grace. We can forgive one another. We can love the person and not his actions. "Where sin abounds, there does grace much more abound."

As for the tune? In matters of taste and beauty there is no argument.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:36 PM

Rev. Newton was regarded as one of the important and influential abolitionists in his time.   His writings were brutally honest about the sins and transgressions in his life, and probably contribute to the misunderstanding of him that set this discussion off in the first place. The thing to know, however, is that his written accounting of his life in the slave trade( was of great assistance to William Wilberforce, who fought in Parliment first to abolish the slave trade, and then to abolish slavery itself in the British Empire. Rev. John Newton Biography

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:59 PM

"As you said, Murray, this [Hitler hypo] is a purely hypothetical case. "Wildly hypothetical." And when we start positing such hypothetical situations, the discussion can go to ridiculous extremes and become pointless." Don Firth.

Don, Don, Don. Thou duckest the question. You are on record as saying that the politics and character of the writer is totally irrelevant to whether you will enjoy, play and share a piece of music(or do I misunderstand you?.)   If that's what you say, then a hypothetical question for you is fully appropriate. And to avoid you ducking further, let me clarify, Yes, Hitler wrote a piece of music that you think is REALLY COOL. And the question is, Are you still able without hesitation to enjoy, play and share that piece of music????

Again, if you say no, you've got some explaining to do. If you say yes, you're being consistent, (as long as you really mean it.)

Sorry if I'm being harsh with you, but you're making some great points in this thread and I want to see you follow your thoughts thru, not duck out when the hypo gets tough. (It's the lawyer in me. Can't be helped).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:02 PM

Yes, I've often been struck by the philosophical parallels between abolitionism and National Socialism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:59 PM

What? (quack!) Me? (quack!) Ducking the question? (quack!) Who? (quack!) Me?

Okay, here it is:   If I thought it was a "REALLY COOL" piece of music, yes, I would still be able to enjoy, play, and share it. But not necessarily without hesitation. IF my audiences found it offensive, then I would probably back off. Since, in my capacity as a performer, I am supposed to be entertaining my audiences, if they took offense at the piece, then I would be 1) failing to entertain them, and 2) shooting myself in the foot by continuing to perform it because I may loose those audiences. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't enjoy it myself.

I would have to treat it like other songs that I know some people find offensive. I wouldn't sing raunchy songs at a church social or drinking songs at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.

Okay, now how does that square with my considering the man who called the radio station (objecting to the Beethoven piano concerto as "Nazi music" because he had heard that it was one of Hitler's favorite pieces of music) a brainless, hypersensitive twit?

Beethoven was often surly and rude, he was frequently behind in his rent, and sometimes he didn't bathe that often. But he was dead before Hitler was born. Save for the fact that he was a musical genius, he hardly to blame for the actions and attitudes of those in the distant future who liked his music. If Hitler liked the music of Beethoven, Wagner, and Strauss, well, bully for Hitler! It shows, at least, that he had a touch of musical taste (unless he liked them, not for their music, but merely because they were German). But to blame those composers for what Hitler did is just plain stupid! And wanting to deprive other listeners of enjoying Beethoven's music just because he had issues with it is just a little fascistic in and of itself!

Okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:09 PM

Wilberforce, who Mr. Baughman may have less disdain for, was a child in Rev. Newton's church, and Newton encouraged him to pursue his work against slavery--Wilberforce later called on Newton to make public his remorse on his involvement in the slave trade. It is wrong for Mr. Baughman to assume that Newton bore no private regrets til his "public" statements--most people, even now, hold progressive beliefs privately but refrain from public statements and social activism--

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:21 PM

The "Hitler" analogy is not merely hypothetical, it is totally irrelevant in relation to John Newton. A more relevant analogy might be with the man I mentioned in an earlier post - Oscar Schindler. A man who was far from being flawless, living in a desperate time, a mixture of altruism and self-seeking, and a saviour for a lot of people. I don't think many people would have problems of principle in singing a song he might have written,

Hitler was painter, but a pretty poor one. If he had been a great artist would we feel we had a duty to destroy his painting? An interesting question to toy with, but not one we need to try to settle.

After all if Hitler had been a great artist he would not have been Hitler, and who know how his life would have unfolded. At a much lower level of evildoing it is notable that the fact that the painter Caravaggio appears to have been a murderer has not led to his paintings being shunned.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:40 PM

Okay, as some of you have failed to notice, I'm not really taking a position here. I started this thread by askimg if I was being silly with my reaction two nights ago to someone singing Amazing Grace at a session, and I asked this community what other people think of this. I have benefited from this chat and will now say that whatever Don Firth says, I agree with, (don't say anything stupid now, Don.)

I still think Newton was a bad boy, a really really bad boy, murderer and all that, (yeah, chaining folks up in the hull of your ships knowing full well that some will die on the journey is murder) and he was probably not fully repentant, (though I may have too few facts to claim to know for sure about his regrets.) That view of Newton will perhaps forever get in the way of ME PERSONALLY enjoying his music. Or maybe I'll get over it some day. For many others (apparently many many others,) it's not an issue.

In the meantime, I really hope not to hear Amazing Grace in the near future, or even in the intermediate future.

Thanks for being mostly civil in responding to my inquiry.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:36 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, sigh, about time to move this thread to a new, somewhat lower classification?