BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?

Subject: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:52 AM

In parts of the UK including where I live, foxes have established a strong foothold in cities. They can be seen throughout the day and often come quite close before running (or walking) away. I had one that stood barely six feet away and gave me plenty of time to take a number of photographs before casually moving on.

Much play has been made of one incident where someone left the door of their house open and a fox apparently went inside, climbed the stairs and savaged their young children.

As I understand it they do not carry disease

Anyone else heard of further incidents - fact not myth - or are they a delightful taste of the countryside in an otherwise de-naturalised environment?

How does their record compare with pet dogs?

Until I'm convinced otherwise they brighten my day and I'm happy to see them around.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:54 AM

I suppose it depends whose dustbin they are in.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:57 AM

Always wonderful to see sly, bold Reynard in the town.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: gnomad
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 05:44 AM

Given how infested with rodents our towns are, and our predilection for slinging half-eaten takeaways and other food about the place, it is not really surprising that the foxes are thriving in towns. Having slightly fewer loose dogs about has doubtless also encouraged them.

I have no quarrel with their presence in towns, though if they could modify their defecatory habits it would be nice. As they become more used to humans, partly because we are living in the same places and partly as we humans are choosing to be less of a threat to foxes, there are likely to be more interactions between the species. Some of these interactions may not be peaceful, but foxes are not a pack animal so the threat is not large. Closing the odd door or two is a habit we should relearn; it saves energy and keeps out unwanted quadrupeds.

Foxes' natural home turf having been widely devastated (from their point of view) they are choosing to adapt and survive. Who can blame them?

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 06:02 AM

Delightful, last year coming up to the Autumn I saw a pair of foxes I assume was a breeding pair side by side. The time I get to see them is very early in the morning when everything is still and quiet and hardly anyone around to disturb them. Lovely.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:10 AM

"Much play has been made of one incident where someone left the door of their house open and a fox apparently went inside, climbed the stairs and savaged their young children."

What did the medical examiner have to say? This sounds like rats, not a fox. (If it ever happened.)

I read an article in the Smithsonian magazine once (or maybe it was Natural History magazine) where a man observed foxes in the wild for a long time. Much of their diet consisted of earthworms.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:19 AM

A delight. I currently feed an extended family of six. The grandfather used to eat out of my hand. Harmless, friendly (eventually), rather noisy, but I could watch them all night...and the best vermin hunters in the business.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 09:47 AM

Like all furry inhabitants of the wild, they ARE subject to rabies (yes, yes, I know that rabies is non-existent in the UK). And if you are feeding them you are making them dependent upon human food -- and if they can't get it they'll take it one way or the other. It screws up their digestion and their health, and they "unlearn" how to feed themselves in the wild.

For their sakes, please DO NOT feed wild animals!

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:11 AM

In addition to rodents, Foxes will also control the number of feral and free-roaming cats, which is of immense benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM

A few years ago in Ft Worth Texas I saw a fox running on the soccer fields of Texas Christian University. That's in the middle of town. We also saw them near our home in North Richland Hills. But there were plenty of fields with livestock nearby.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:21 AM

"Closing the odd door or two is a habit we should relearn; it saves energy and keeps out unwanted quadrupeds"

and bipeds

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 10:29 AM

I am always delighted to catch sight of them as they dash across roads or through hedgerows as I drive home at night or in the early hours. I dare say I would think different if I had a hen coup but even then it would be up to me to protect my hens.

Wilpredators have been slowly eradicated across Europe. The Fox does not seem malicious to man. I know they something go into overkill but generally they are harmless to us?

The ones that got into that child's bedroom was a rare incident. Far more worrying is leaving doors open so that human strangers can just walk in and do what they wish to the inhabitants of the house.

Foxes brighten some of my moments too on this planet

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 11:07 AM

I have seen them quite often in Tavistock Square abd they are a dekight to behold. What is sad is the destruction that forces the sly bold Reynardine into Bloombury.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 12:07 PM

"yes, yes, I know that rabies is non-existent in the UK"

I bet it isn't.


"This sounds like rats, not a fox. (If it ever happened.)"

It happened (receiving national coverage in the UK) and it was a fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: open mike
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 12:16 PM

bobert has has foxes at his place, and i have one that i have seen up close a few time, and it has a regular well-beaten path thru my yard.

there are several videos on you tube of them in yards, near cats, etc.

my cat seems not to be afraid of the one here, it seems they have an understanding.

rumor has it that not far from here there was a farm that tried to have a fox breeding operation .. for fox fur apparel .. in the 30's or 40's and that one night the caretaker went on a drunken rampage and chopped up the cages and let them free...unknown if that is true, but
could account for large population of foxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Ernest
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 12:17 PM

I saw one in the central part of Berlin (admittedly close to a big park) one evening a few years ago and also a few in smaller towns where I lived before. Also I remember news-stories about a racoon living near Alexanderplatz - quite at the center of the city (don`t know if the stories are true tough. Racoons ar not native to Germany but it looks like that some escaping from zoos etc. were quite successful in surviving). Never heard of any remarkable problems with either of those living in town.

Different thing with the wild boars that slowly move in to the outskirts...saw a few (mother with piglets) at a public transport station last year. Since they live in families they can be dangerous when they feel attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM

I only know US foxes, and if the UK fox is anything like ours, I say put them in charge of everything at once. That should clear up a lot of things! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 01:09 PM

one fox

two foxes

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 01:17 PM

I am with Richard on this one.

Cat vs Fox Thread

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:02 PM

A coyote was hit by a car, in front of our post office, two blocks from here. They are extending their range in the USA, but I have never heard the proverbial chorus of howling at the moon. It would be wonderful to experience that I think. And a fox or two has shown themselves close by as well.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: SussexCarole
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:19 PM

My daughter's beautiful pet cat was savaged to death a few weeks ago by a fox. She lives on the outskirts of London.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 03:41 PM

A BBC film about urban foxes some years ago showed a nightime confrontation between a cat and a fox, the fox backed off , not the cat.

I have problems believing that a fox went upstairs in a house and attacked a baby, despite the photo of the said fox, for fucks sake time to get a camera [ or phone ] take pictures, but not stop the thing ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 04:10 PM

Coyotes howl a lot around here. Quite a few of them since there are grapevines and miles and miles of them are full of food for those guys. Lots of foxes also ... I see them quite often in my walkabouts

Love the foxes ...

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: ranger1
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:09 PM

Foxes, like all wild animals, are opportunists. Whatever will give them the best results from the least amount of energy expended is what they'll go for. I've seen the results of a 15 pound fox taking out a 20+ pound wild turkey (turkeys don't go down without a fight), and I know people who have had cats taken by foxes.

Personally, I like them. We have them here in the middle of the city of Portland (Maine). The one in my neighborhood trots down the street about 3 AM on Wednesdays (rubbish day), looking fat and glossy and generally quite pleased with himself. We also don't have a large rodent problem having the fox around. That's definitely a plus in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, housesitting
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 07:46 PM

Coyotes are more prevalent than foxes in the US, I think. I've seen foxes in the woods but not in towns.

I prefer the long, undulating howl of the wolf but the distant yip, yip, yip of the coyote also gives one a glimpse into an other universe.

The word is that Juneau Alaska now has at least one pack of coyotes in the mountains and valleys above the city.

We have more numerous stories involving bears, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: sapper82
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:37 AM

From: Sugarfoot Jack - PM
Date: 05 Oct 10 - 12:07 PM

"yes, yes, I know that rabies is non-existent in the UK"

I bet it isn't.


Quite correct unfortunately.
Bats carry rabies

Though it hasn't crossed the species barrier, a Scottish wildlife volunteer died of the disease after being bitten by a bat several years ago.

For Rafflesbear, I've a couple of stories of foxes in London;
First, when the overhead wire test coach "MENTOR" was stabled in Ilford Train Depot, I was chatting to one of the production managers who mentioned the serious problem they were having with fleas and other insectoid vermin infesting the seat cushions in the depot stores.
As he was telling me, I glimpsed a fox slunking round the depot about 50 to 70y away. Even at that range I could see the missing clumps of fur and general emaciated condition of the animal, suggestive of a severe mange infestation. Pointing to it, I suggested that was where the problem lay.

The second incident was on the T&H line from Barking to Gospel Oak doing a track recording run on the TRU. there is a section of line that runs in a cutting with the bottom of the cutting on both sides retained by a 3' concrete revetment.
Travelling towards Gospel Oak (on the "Up" Line in railway parlance) I saw a fox in the Down Line cess struggling trying to get up the revetment.
I sincerely hope that the next time I see an animal in that condition, I will have the means to put the poor bugger out of it's misery.
The poor sod had lost more than half of it's fur, again probably due to mange, and was covered in scabbed and bleading sores. A .22 bullet through it's head would have been a kindness.

And for Dave Hanson's information, the parents of the children attacked by the fox actually disturbed it in their children's bedroom. It then ran off and, whilst they were calling for assistance, returned to the house to try and get back in again.
That was when the picture was taken.

I am with Gnome in recognising that foxes are helping keep the rodent population down in our cities, particularly with the disgusting habits of some of my fellow humans in mind, but take slight issue on the matter of them not being pack animals.

There are several stories of them, presumably family groups, acting in concert to take lambs from sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:47 AM

One of the explanations for the fox attacking the babies was that more than likely the fox caught the scent of milk on them, it was a very warm evening and so the smell of the milk would have been stronger.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:25 AM

Picking up on Sapper's tale - one problem with urban foxes is that they may be carrying various illnesses, and without any form of control (either by natural predator or by farmers) the risk is that diseases will be spread among the urban fox population, if not more widely.
My favourite urban fox moment (since put into a song)when I was living in central London was seeing one heading down my street one morning. It then apparently made its way into the lifts of the block of flats where I lived, and was seen later on an upper floor, so presumably had managed the lift controls in some way. (OK, OK, so probably it entered the lift when it was standing open and someone on an upper floor summoned the lift so that's how it happened, but I prefer my version). As that was the time when there were the big Countryside Alliance demos in London it made me think about the notion of an urban hunt, probably on motorbikes ....

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: sapper82
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 04:48 AM

Heyup Anne!
Not just urban foxes infecting each other either.
Brother-in-law, who farms just South of Berwick-on-Tweed, never had any problems with mange infecting his sheep dogs until a period a few years ago when they developed a particularly hard to shift infection.

He later found out that a group of people in Newcastle were catching some of the cities foxes and releasing them in the countryside near him!!!


BTW, I was on one of those marches!

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

My daughter's beautiful pet cat was savaged to death a few weeks ago by a fox. She lives on the outskirts of London.

Simple solution: Couldn't have happened if the cat was not allowed to roam.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:50 AM

Probably a bit too simplistic Greg - plus it could still have happened within the owner's garden.

However I see from your previous postings on other threads that you have your own cat problems

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 08:59 AM

Watching a fox in the garden at the moment - it's eating yew berries. I thought they were poisonous for humans but this fox has been back regularly for days and still seems fine on it.

It just totally blanked a cat walking past in the next garden as did the cat ignore the fox

No mange on this fox, excellent condition and great big bushy tail - ahhhh...

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:01 AM

Finished the meal, now curled up in the sun on top of the garage

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

Probably a bit too simplistic Greg

How so? Seems ptretty straightforward.

you have your own cat problems

Not at all- I have no problems with them, nor do the several that I have seem to have any problems with me. You'd have to ask 'em to be certain.

I DO have problems with certain individuals' personal irresponsibility and cruelty to animals, tho.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:16 AM

I did have the mishap of walking into a fox last year on my way to work, I was in a hurry as usual but it obviously didn't hear me and I wasn't aware that it was coming the other way. Couldn't be sure if it was a male or female but we both were surprised as each other so it carried on trying to run through my legs. The thing I do remember with that encounter was that it's smell was quite pungent (not it's fault) not so delightful as it was virtually under my nose. But now I always know when a fox has been in the area through that experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: GUEST,bubblyrat
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM

I have seen quite a few in different places,particularly in Bournemouth,where whole families can be heard screeching away in some of the "Chines" (wooded valleys running down to the shore).There are quite a few in Oxon / Bucks as well ; one often sees them at night in the car headlights. On the whole,most of the ones I've seen have looked a bit mangey/scruffy/malnourished, as would be expected of any living thing existing on a diet of KFC -bones and regurgitated Donner Kebabs. I think that their natural place is in the woods & fields,chasing after rabbits,etc,and sometimes getting shot by irate sheep-farmers,but that's life.
          Eventually I suppose,somebody will die after being bitten by a diseased "urban" animal (Rabies,Tetanus,Weil's Disease or whatever),after which "something will be done " ----but not until then ! Meanwhile, IF I had a .243 Remington Magnum (virtually IMPOSSIBLE to do in this,the most over-regulated,anti-gun country in the world !) ----Well, I know what I'd do !! Humanely,of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 10:57 AM

Despite being the most over-regulated, anti gun country in the world I think you will find that more people have been killed by guns in the UK than by foxes

and per capita, less killed by guns in the UK than in under-regulated pro gun countries

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 11:30 AM

A story from Sussex (UK)

A neighbour of mine, who lives on a small farm about 3 or 4 miles from my village, discovered that a fox was taking his chickens. In spite of the usual wire precautions, etc., it happens. So he stayed up one night, caught the fox in the act of trying to dig into the coop area, and shot it.

The predation, however, recurred - so, once again, he stayed up, found the fox and shot it.

He actually shot 7 foxes before it stopped. The last fox body seemed odd to him so he inspected it closely and found evidence of surgery and stitching on a hind leg. A rough and ready post-mortem found that there were steel pins in the leg, which had obviously been mended by a vet.

His conclusion? That some "townies" had gathered up some urban foxes and released them into the countryside - motive unknown...

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 12:49 PM

Sadly, since the banning of foxhunting in the UK, the amount of foxes rises dramatically each year.(PROBLEM1) Each vixen will bear three or maybe four cubs, teach them how to get food (by whatever method is available to them) and within a year she sends them off to find their own territory. Unfortunately, territory is limited so foxes are growing in numbers in town and city as well as the country. Unless there is a cull of these animals, they will become more of a problem as their numbers increase. I am not an advocate of foxhunting as such but it did serve to keep the number of foxes down. (PROBLEM2) The fox is at the top of the wild food chain in the UK. The numbers of foxes increasing means that their eating down from the top will reduce drastically the number of birds and animals that keep insect numbers down. The insect populace of this country is changing and we now have mosquitos prevalent and other insects which used to be obscure such as the Blandford Fly (nasty critter). There will be very little in the way of natural predator to keep their numbers down and already some accident and emergency departments in hospitals are reporting that more than half of their casual patients arrive because of infected insect bites. (PROBLEM3) The fox is a WILD animal and although it might appear somewhat tame when people are feeding them and treating them as tame. More children and possibly adults will suffer attacks and bites and the possible horror exists that babies and small children may fall prey to them.
You may... and you are welcome to reason against what I have said here but time will tell!
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 01:23 PM

I actually wonder whether the foxhunting ban has made a substantial difference to the overall fox population - I'm no supporter of foxhunting, by the way. I suspect there are more killed on the roadside than by hunts - but I've no data to back my statement up. I do know that, when I travelled to work early in the morning every day (retired now), I used to see lots of dead foxes at the roadside.

Oddly enough, I was talking to some fellow villagers in the pub the other day about the increase in dead badgers at the roadside recently. Some had the opinion that they were being killed by local farmers and then left at the roadside to simulate a road death.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Ernest
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 01:49 PM

Georgiansilver:

I thought the ban of foxhunting only applied to the kind of hunt using a pack of foxhounds and horsemen. Have I got that wrong?

Over here on the continent hunters are successful enough with guns, dachshunds and terriers. This should be able to cope with the problems # 1 and # 2 you reported....

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 02:19 PM

Don't see foxes in town (they could be here), but coyotes work the alleys for edible garbage at night. Very quiet, return to outskirts near sunrise.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 03:07 PM

Ernest.. Yes the ban on foxhunting does apply to hounds and horsemen.. however the number of people actually killing foxes(usually by shooting them) at present is confined to the odd farmer protecting his livelihood..... People with dacshunds, terriers and guns would probably come under the hunt scenario though as it is an 'organised' hunt..... What we actually need is a census and a cull... before the problem becomes too great. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 03:19 PM

"a census and a cull... before the problem becomes too great"

shouldn't that be a census to see if we need a cull?

come to that, what problem? We have quite a few round here but I can't see a problem

As for insects, there is nothing so good as a hard winter for sorting them out and warmer winters seem to have far greater influence on increasing numbers than foxes

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 03:30 PM

Rafflesbear... why the prevalence of mosquitos and the spread of the Blandford fly??? Is that nor controlled by Winter???

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 03:45 PM

There have been relatively few insects round here (South-East London / North West Kent) this year and very few wasps. Also come to that a vast reduction in Blue Tits, Great Tits and other wild birds.

I put that down to the extremely long and bitter winter we had

On the Blandford Fly the Telegraph says -
The Blandford fly, a tiny insect normally found in the country, appears to have reproduced in city areas, largely thanks to the growing popularity of garden water features.

Experts blamed the recent warm and humid (sic) which has made insects, including horseflies, mosquitoes and midges, more active, particularly in the evening.

The balmy summer evenings have also encouraged people into their gardens where they are more likely to be bittenExperts blamed the recent warm and humid which has made insects, including horseflies, mosquitoes and midges, more active, particularly in the evening.
The balmy summer evenings have also encouraged people into their gardens where they are more likely to be bitten, the Daily Mail reported.

Not a word about foxes although I feel sure you are about to show me one :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 03:47 PM

sorry about the repeats overzealous cut and paste - report dated july 29 2010

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:01 PM

Rafflesbear..... Please take note of my original post and time will tell.... believe me.. time will tell.... I wrote a letter to No 10... explaining what would happen before foxhunting was banned.... and suggested that a cull of foxes would be required to avoid the problem outlined..... no reply came... and I guess nothing has been done... so let's just see if my prediction was correct eh??

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:22 PM

Check back in say 5 years?

it's in my diary for 6th October 2015

Subject: RE: BS: Urban Fox - plague or delight?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:34 PM

If people had listened to my predictions on gold prices... many would have been well off by now..... Perhaps my predictions are not to be sniffed at eh??