BS: McCrash

Subject: BS: McCrash
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM

OpEdNews

Original Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/McCrash-McCain-s-Military-by-Hill-Kemp-080823-263.html

August 23, 2008

McCrash: McCain's Military Record Revisited

By Hill Kemp


MCCAINS WAR KILL SCORE: 167 US SAILORS, 15 US JETS, 60 ENEMIES?


When John McCain crashed his fifth navy fighter plane he was captured by the North Vietnamese. That crash gave him his greatest claim to fame and made him a national celebrity. But the in run-up to that incident hides a whole other story.


Acclaimed war hero McCain clearly demonstrated his rating in the lowest 0.5% in his military class of 900 during his tour of duty in Viet Nam. On June 27, 1967 aboard the USS Forrestal 167 US sailors lost their lives in a giant fire and a series of explosions. The crewmen who had to fight that fire for 24 hours to keep the aircraft carrier from sinking were looking for the "hotdog" pilot they thought started the chain reaction disaster. But they were too late to find him.


John McCain, whose dad was a Pentagon bigwig, left the ship the next morning taking up a space on a helicopter meant to evacuate the wounded. He was the only pilot transferred to another ship from the Forrestal after the incident in what is likely the fastest military transfer in recorded history - a kind of "cut and run" that left his grieving shipmates behind.

His evacuation probably kept the death toll from going to 168 if the crewmen could have found the pilot who "wet-started" his A-4E Skyhawk fighter jet and triggered the incident. "Wet-starting" means pooling jet fuel in the engine before starting it to send a flash of flame out the engine exhaust. (XA4D-1 Skyhawk BuNo 137812) This was done to shake up the pilot in the F-4 fighter behind him. But in the confusion a rocket went off, bombs were dropped on the ship deck and the chain reaction disaster was underway. The ship was so damaged it had to be taken out of the war effort.


Those 15 US jets lost? Well, McCain outright crashed five from the pilot seat. His whispered nickname was "McCrash". His fifth crash earned him POW status as his principal claim to heroic fame. The other ten planes lost were casualties of the juvenile 'hotdogging' on the Forrestal deck that terrible day. The financial cost for his stint in the service, even in 1967 dollars, was in the tens of millions.


Oh, and his flights before being captured probably amounted to a few casualties on the other side. Sixty is a high side estimate.


(Based on official naval film account, a McCain campaign film adapting the record and testimony of sailors from the ship.)





Authors Website: www.capitoloffense.com

Authors Bio:
Hill Kemp is a former Texas State Representative and his novel, Capitol Offense, ISBN 1878096702, rips away the Austin facade and reveals a surprising cast of the real players and their cut-throat contentions. In the place where George W. Bush and Karl Rove learned their abc's of governing, Kemp's novel exposes the hidden 90% of the governing process which never makes its way into the news. Capitol Offense, is a parody of then governor Bush and virtually a literary political cartoon. The page-turner was labeled "dangerously close to reality" by one Austin, Texas veteran.


An equally gripping sequel A Lone Star Special (ISBN9781935137450) released in August, 2008 drives the legislative thriller path further into the murky depths of Texas politics. His children's chapter book, Lucky Penny. This e-book is in production.


Hill Kemp lives in the forest and lake country in northwest Louisiana. He is the father of two and grandfather of three.


You can reach Hill Kemp through his website: http://www.capitoloffense.com

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

Oh my goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

It sounds like he was the Joe Btfsplk of the navy.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM

Wow, wonder if the Swiftboaters are going to get behind this??? Purdy lousy pilot I'd say...

(But, Boberdz, didn't you and yer brother crash a Piper Cub back long time ago???)

Well, yeah, but we got it out of our system after one crash... Maybe the North Vietnamese did the US a favor if McCain really was that clueless about flyin'???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM

I think if you look for the truth (unlikely) you will find that Lt. McCain was walking accross the deck of the Forresthal after an uneventful landing. His jet was safely parked and tethered as it should have been. Another jet crash landed, slid into McCain's parked plane and ruptured the fuel tank. He had his helmet off and was talking to somebody when the crash occurred behind him. There is film of the incident and it has been shown on national television in the last 10 years or so.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM

don't confuse Bobert with the truth- it just makes him more likely to insist on the lie being spread.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,VOT
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM

McCain's gonna win, that's the only truth I know

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Peace
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM

Bobert--let's get to something important. Got your CD and I love it. Your treatment of the Dylan song at cut one is the best I ever heard, and that includes Dylan's. Great one, man.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:09 PM

BB, I believe that this "urban legend" comes from Stringslinger.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:11 PM

The "you" was not aimed a Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

That's not the story I heard at the time the Forrestall was burned. I think I'll do some more digging.

The Truth is out there.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM

"Any allegation of John McCain having any culpability for the fire are unequivocally false. The primary source for any discussion of the fire should be the Navy's own 6,000-page report. In this report (compete with diagrams and all the minutia of the day) outside of being listed with various crew in different attachments, McCain's name only surfaces in two affidavits he supplied to the board. One from the day of the fire, one from Subic Bay two days later. He was not a "suspect" or person of interest. He was simply one of the witnesses. To that point, it should be noted that nowhere in those 6,000 pages does it state that the Zuni rocket struck AA416 (McCain's A-4E). EVERY note, reference, citation states that the Zuni hit AA-405, LCDR Fred White's A-4E. McCain himself, in the depositions states in the first that he "thought" it was his plane that was hit, but was not certain. In the second, he was certain it hit the other aircraft. Just as an aside, all DANFS citations should be regarded with skepticism. It is not a primary source and has a bad reputation among historians. The report does not point to a single individual. As the previous author noted, Bangert and McKay were absolved. The culprit, according to the board, was a "stray voltage," a spark, on a test plug. The squadron was also using unauthorized procedures for launch preparations that contributed to the event"

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

You're all wrong btw and especially that bull that started the post. I'm certainly no McCain fan but I AM an avid watcher of the History Channel and the Military Channel. There is an excellent piece (not focusing on McCain) that has the official Navy film of this disaster aboard the Forrestal. The jets are parked along the sides and after the fire starts you can see McCain climb out of his cockpit, walk along the nose, and jump to the deck just clear of the fire.

There has been much written on the web on BOTH sides but the film evidence discounts a good deal of what is being said. YOu can find the video on YouTube.

ANd yes.......Much like the "Swiftboating" of Kerry, this too is a smear campaign. The fact that I liked Kerry and dislike McCain doesn't enter into the fact that both were and are horseshit.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM

From what I heard, Texas Politics ain't NOTHING compared to Chicago Politics...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM

Got waylaid by my son while typing the preceding post......Thanks to beardedbruce,pdq, and Rap for helping out here. Its a horseshit story and Peace hits the nail on the head.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: pdq
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

Yes, I stand corrected. McCain jumped from the plane and walked away, trying to avoid the spilled fuel. But his plane was parked and he had nothing to do with causing the problems.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

I heard McCain's role described pretty much as Spaw described it. He leaves his cockpit and crosses the deck when the fireworks start.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:00 PM

By the way, I think that "swiftboating" (as it is known) is the most reprehensible development in recent politics. If Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star, why did his commanding officer (who was part of the "Swift Boat Veterans") recommend him for it? There is even a movement to denigrate Bob Kerrey's Medal of Honor!

I've noticed that much of this starts with people who never served in the military...people like good ol' Karl "1-H ("Not for induction at this time")" Rove.

I helped a friend of mine obtain a CO status when I returned from Active Duty; he ended up working in a ghetto school in Milwaukee. I don't care if you were in the military or not, but don't spread any more lies than are already out there -- about either side of the '60s.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:03 PM

I'd like to see that this report weither true of false be used & swiftboated against MaCrash just like it was used on Kerry. Payback sucks don't it.
About time the dems used NASTY against those that invented it.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Peace
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:05 PM

It would be nice to find the source of that story and track down the people who started it.

One thing I HAVE noticed is that when the reprehensible stories about Kerry were working their way around the www, not too many non-Democrats were asking for fairness. I guess that's one of the things that separates voters from the two main sides in the US: Democrat voters tend to have a greater sense of fairness. Your mileage may vary on that, and no, I don't care to argue the point. Just an observation.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Peace
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

With regard to one of Rapaire's posts. He and I have a good friendship despite having been on 'option that stories of that nature about Mcposite' sides of the Vietnam issue in the 1960s. One of the things I admire about the ol' fart is that he not only talks the talk but also walks the walk.

I think in terms of this election that stories of that nature about McCain are beneath contempt (and that is not directed at Stringsinger). And the people who start stories like that are equally beneath contempt.

Democrats don't need shit like that to 'win'. I'd bet that Obama speaks to the issue at some point (soon I hope), and that's as it should be. Fuck the Republican tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Peace
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM

"With regard to one of Rapaire's posts. He and I have a good friendship despite having been on 'option that stories of that nature about Mcposite' sides of the Vietnam issue in the 1960s. One of the things I admire about the ol' fart is that he not only talks the talk but also walks the walk."



JAYSUS, lemme try that again. Something really screwed up with this laptop.


"With regard to one of Rapaire's posts. He and I have a good friendship despite having been on opposite sides of the Vietnam issue in the 1960s. One of the things I admire about the ol' fart is that he not only talks the talk but also walks the walk."

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

Thanks, brucie... I been playin' that song off and on for 40 years so I reckon I oughtta be able to at least half hit the sumabich...

Speakin' of hittin' the sumabich, why does it matter if McCain was the one who crashed the plane??? Hey, 4 years ago I didn't hear a peep outta any of you Bushites when lies were being told about John Kerry??? I mean, even if it is a lie, I couldn't care less... If it gains traction and creates doubt about McCain in the minds of the voters, so be it... What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

I mean, what a pile of hypocrsiy on the local Bushites part... Where were you when the lies were being fabricated against John Kerry???

Any of you Bushites want to take a stab at that???

(But Boberdz, this is different...)

Oh??? How is it different... Or how is it different than when Karl Rove put out lies on that Senator from Georgia who lost both legs and an arm ion Vietnam???

Yeah, tell me exactly why this is different???

Bunch of hypocrits as far as I can see...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:47 PM

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp


" I mean, even if it is a lie, I couldn't care less... If it gains traction and creates doubt about McCain in the minds of the voters, so be it... "

I will be sure to remember this when you talk about the ads about O'bomber. as YOU say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander..."




Uniter? "Bunch of hypocrites as far as I can see..."

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM

You didn't bother to answer the question, bb, as to why you didn't defend John Kerry against the Swiftboat Liars...

Do you expect me to have a higher standard than yourself???

That is what hypocrisy is, bb... It's okay in yer book for your folks to lie about Kerry because Kerry, to you, is the enemy but not okay for folks to lie about McCain???

Can you explain your logic???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: olddude
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:55 PM

to me what the difference between the democrats and republican is a matter of truth. The republican will do anything to stay in power and say anything to stay in power. The democrats in my opinion don't need that or do that, the truth and the general fuck ups of the the republicans is all they need. By the way, I was a registered republican for years, then I grew up... I hate this story because it is beneath the democratic party. It is the rat fucking techniques that Nixon started and has been perfected by the republicans. Look at the swift boat shit .. total shit. More disturbing is there are americans that believe it. I don't like McCain at all, but i dont' think we need this to beat him. The track record of GW is more than enough

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:07 PM

I'd like to know more about the five planes he actually did crash, and how that number compares to whatever the average was at that time for people in his position crashing planes.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:11 PM

Heh... I just had a thought. Maybe the person who started this rumor did it for damage control. Maybe someone figured if they tacked the bit about the five crashes onto the tail end of a great big honking lie, nobody would bother to ask the questions I asked in my last post because they'd be too focused on the big lie.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM

last guest was me

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM

let me try again:

Bobert- YOU state:" You didn't bother to answer the question, bb, as to why you didn't defend John Kerry against the Swiftboat Liars..."

I was waiting for YOU to defend the Bush administration against the opinions that Amos and others stated.

The so-called "Swiftboat" lies were opinions stated by some of the people who served with Kerry- others stated other opinions, and I was NOT there to determine the truth, nor had any reports one way or the other.


The lies of fact that you are supporting against McCain are well documented as being false.



"o you expect me to have a higher standard than yourself???"

As the Uber-mensch who is so superiour to those of us who disagree with you, YES, I do.



:"at is what hypocrisy is, bb... It's okay in yer book for your folks to lie about Kerry because Kerry, to you, is the enemy but not okay for folks to lie about McCain???"


YOU seem happy to have your folks lie about those you dislike: Why should I be any different??


"an you explain your logic???"

I have done so- now explain YOURS.

When the same tactics that you advocate against McCain are used against O'bomber, you had best not complain.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM

BTW, Bobert, you are entitled to your opinion- I will not dispute that- BUT facts are more important than partisan bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM

"what the difference between the democrats and republicans"

As far as those outside the US can see, it's just the same as Orwell described in Animal Farm near the end - 'the animals looked from men to pigs and pigs back to men, and could see no difference'... or similar... and as long as you have the "two psuedo-party circus" with first past the post voting, I don't think you can change that...

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:28 PM

That thought crossed my mind aas well, CarolC... Tghe Repubs are so sneaky that they might have put this out...

I have often wondered in Karl Rove didn't have something to do with the fake documents that found their way into Dan Rather's hands and purdy much ended the discussion on why Bush went AWOL...

Hey, it worked...

I fully agree with olddude on this one... Whereas I really am not ready to engage in Republican-like slime I do find it fun to point out the hypocrisy of the Bushites here...

And like I have said before, if I was John McCain's CO and he crashed even one high dollar airplane he would have been grounded... That is why pilots spend lots of time in similators... Let them crash them over and over... That is what they are for... There is no excuse for crashing a real plane if you are trained unless the plane is messed up...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:31 PM

That thought crossed my mind aas well Foolestroupe

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:34 PM

What I find on the five crashes:

"McCain Didn't Crash Five Planes?
The Corner has an item up that appears to be false.

Will McCain, who finished 894th out of 899 at the Naval Academy and who lost five jets, return competence to the White House?

I'd wager it comes from this story which mentions his Father getting his wings at age 50.


Slew McCain was so driven that when the navy passed a rule saying only aviators could command a carrier, the old man went to flight school while in his fifties. He crashed five planes before finally getting his wings, and then his carrier. In one Pacific battle, planes under Slew McCain's command sank 49 Japanese ships in a single day."



So the crashed planes were by his father- but I presume that Bobert will blame the child for the sins of the father (except for O'Bomber, of course)

But it is certainly not worth trying to verify facts, when lies are so much more satisfying.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:44 PM

What does o'Bomber mean to you, bb???

Please expalin why you think it is perfectly okay to dis Barak Obama for suggesting that he would support a policy that the Bush administration currently has in place...

Or why you think that McCain is some hero because, inspite of his bluster to follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of Hell, that he (or you) think it's okay to not have a policy that would allow you to take Osama out if you had actionable intellegence and could get him with a Preditor???

You, bb, make absolutely no sense...

You dis a guy for saying that he would continue a Bush policy that would get Osama bin Laden and support a guy who wouldn't...

You are a real piece or work, BB... Try independent thought now and then... I really dosen't hurt...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,Beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:57 PM

I use O'bomber because of your various names for McCain.


You use his real name and I will, as well.


YOU are a lousy Ubermensch, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:00 PM

Me, I stand corrected on the Forrestal fire incident. Not sure about the others yet. I'll look, but we DO tend to blame the son for the failures of the Father...the Father did raise the son after all.

See Bush. See Kennedy. I do try to be an Equal Opportunity Disser.





Bobert...I do tend to agree with you on this one.













o

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

Let me clarify something: I was not for the Vietnam War in the '60s. In fact, I don't know anyone who was -- especially not among the guys getting shot at. Yes, there were those who wanted to "kill gooks" but they were quickly disabused of any fantasies by the crack-thump of the first bullet past their head or the first person they saw wounded or dead (those who weren't were mentally ill, and I knew some of them as well). I served because I had given my word that I would do so.

So did my brothers, both of whom served in Vietnam and came under fire there. I was in the DMZ War in Korea, where the killing was retail rather than wholesale and yes, I was shot at. It didn't matter -- dead's dead, whether it's in the jungle or in the mountains.

And as I sat in the SeaTac airport, all of the Korea and Vietnam returnees on one side of the aisle and the stragglers from Woodstock on the other, I thought "A haircut and change clothes and you couldn't tell who's who."

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:27 PM

Ya' mean McNasty, bb??? He is..

You mean McWar, bb??? He is...

You mean McMischief, bb??? He is...

You mean McUgly, bb??? He is...

I mean, I'm dealing with reality here... The guy is a blowhard who never met a war not worth starting... He is nasty... He is mischievious and he is butt ugly...

As for Obama??? Hey, he doesn't go off with the theatrics like McActor... He just states calmly that if he has "actionable intellegence" that folks are about to attack us and Pakistan refuses to act that he will...

Duhhhhhh??? This should be a no-brainer but you and yer hero John MCain think this shows a weakness on Obama's part???

Just how do you define weakness when yer guy, who says he's gonna get Osama and then belittles a policy that would allow US to, ahhhhhhh, friggin' get Osama if Pakistan wouldn't...

Can you expalin this, bb, because so far you explanations leave a lot to be desired when it comes to adult reasoning???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at the Women's Center
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:39 PM

It wasn't right when they smeared Kerry's military record, and it's not right to do it to McCain. Both men are one in a thousand in the book of heroism. Certainly, they made mistakes - but both are genuine and admirable heroes.
I think Barack Obama is a hero, too - but he showed his courage in non-military situations.

Don't ask me about George W. Bush.

-Joe Offer-
I did my time and got out - no heroics on my part

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM

I have a great deal of respect for Senator McCain's military career, before, after and including his period of captivity. That doesn't mean that I think he is the best candidate for President - or that he is in the top 50. Senator Obama may also not be the best possible future President. However, IMNSHO, the latter trumps the former.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:42 PM

BB says...

"The so-called "Swiftboat" lies were opinions stated by some of the people who served with Kerry- "

Read your own d*^mn link. Only *one* 1 one!!@@ 1 !!!! of the myriad swift boat f787ckheads it quotes actually served with Kerry. The men who actually served with Kerry (except taht one 1 one 1!!!!! have not a single bad word to say about him. Go read your own Snopes link!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM

I wonder if McCrash will get any mileage out of his service or will Hussein Obama take him down? Will McWar triumph or will Obama-Ramma-Ding-Dong carry the day?

Now ain't that just silly? I catch a lot of flak anymore for dissing folks and playin' the dozens with amateurs.....that all of that is childish....which it is of course. But it doesn't hold a candle to this sillyass name calling......

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. If it does, fuck-off.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM

I have seen the films of the Forrestal disaster and the bombs that dropped was a technical fault and not human error. The pilot who was in the plane that fired a missle on deck was not McCain.

McCain did have multiple crashes.

I do not know if he was evacuated from the Forrestal but this should be checkable even if sanitized at this late date.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:16 AM

The organization, Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain have a lot to say on the crashed planes (and a few other things as well). I don't know how much is true, however...

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:17 AM

Here's another source for that last one I posted...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_11_16/ai_61361646

It was an article written for Insight Magazine by Kelly Patricia O'Meara.

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: DougR
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:26 AM

Bobert: so McCain would have been a hero had he leaped into the fire instead of safety? Right.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:37 AM

Geeziz, I hate to defend McCain.............Kerry took a royal fucking so I'd love to see the same happen to McCain but truth is, I was disgusted with the tactics then and I'm disgusted now.

Yeah.....McCain "LOST" 5 aircraft:

1)    One was a training accident. So what? Training accident......Shit Happens

2)   He fucked up and took out some power lines...his fault....pilot error.

3)   A flameout with no restart. A common scenario and NOT pilot error. Crashing due to engine failure started with powered flight ferchrissakes.

4)   The Forrestal fire. He had nothing to do with starting this in any way and could just as easily been killed. Video proves he was another innocent victim.

5)   Shot down over VietNam by a SAM. This happened to quite a few pilots.


Kennedy lost his PT boat. Quite arguably it could have been avoided.

Kerry didn't deserve it and much as I hate to say it, neither does McCain.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: McCrash
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 03:51 AM

"Bobert: so McCain would have been a hero had he leaped into the fire instead of safety?"

No, but it would've gotten him out of the pan.

He's no hero, at all! Why don't the dems call him out on the idea he's using this when he ain't what he ain't, and a hero isn't what he is, not even close. If anything he's only just got a hero complex, big chest with loads of metals in/on it but with no good reason to pin them on to anything! No reason at all!

Barry