Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:59 AM

Soaps are the ballads of today, Dick - they embody all the mythic & morphological archetypes essential to traditional narrative which is why they're so compelling, and cathartic, and, at their best, which East Enders can be, transcendent!

Often, in the middle of Willie's Lady or Earl Brand I'll drop in the East Enders theme just to underline this soapy heritage...

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:10 AM

"As a singer I don't actually think there's much wrong with subtly adapting a song to suit your audience and the current context - it's just when someone else comes along and draws sociological conclusions about past history from a version subject to clandestine modern alterations that we start to get into tricky territory - as some of Nerd's own research illustrates very well."

I couldn't agree more, Brian - perhaps these thoughts should be referenced the next time someone starts a "Why do we need to research folk songs - can't we just sing them?" thread.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:54 PM

sorry, soaps are rubbish ,stereotyped characters,often poor acting,sensational plots.
I find it pathetic,that some families only get togerther to watch Home and away,before the advent of television people used to sit together in the evening play cards,cribbage,chess,play the piano,make their own amusements.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:56 PM

Often, in the middle of Willie's Lady or Earl Brand I'll drop in the East Enders theme just to underline this soapy heritage... with the greatest respect have you lost your marbles,too much talking to Walkabout verse.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray)
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:27 PM

with the greatest respect have you lost your marbles,too much talking to Walkabout verse.

Quite possible, Dick, although WAV is known to me personally & quite the personable chap he is too despite his somewhat cranky Mudcat persona!

Seriously though, in my professional work as a storyteller I'm constantly researching & evaluating the morphology and dynamic of traditional narrative & the elements therein that determine the effectiveness thereof. This is pretty much a constant actually, something that will out as it were, be it in The Tain, Buile Suibhne, or the over-arcing sagas of modern day soap-operas - stereotyped characters, sensational plots and all!

Otherwise, I couldn't agree with you more about television & it's impact on more traditional pastimes & culture as a whole, but being born in 1961 I'm afraid I was raised on it! Times I've done without it quite nicely though, and no doubt will do again, but right now with our 50% operative digibox I'm happy enough.

Love the YouTube stuff by the way - slowly working my way through it...

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:45 PM

Dick,

Cards, cribbage & chess, mere fiddling about with numbers! In watching human relationships unfold their minds are dealing with something much more complex, albeit in a physically passive way.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:58 PM

Several contributors to this thread have referred to episodes within this ballad as though they belong to this ballad alone. The majority of the older ballads of the 16th/17th centuries are riddled with commonplaces, i.e., motifs that are common to several ballads. 'little penknives' are numerous. The footpage who runs with the message is one of the commonest. Even the choice of swords occurs in other ballads (likely originated in C81).

As I've said on a previous thread somewhere on this ballad the nobility at all levels by intermarriage and patronage of monarchs held estates all over the country, and both sides of the border after the union. There are bound to be Barnard and Musgrave properties and names all over the border areas and beyond. The Percys for instance had lots of land in my neck of the woods, East Yorkshire, miles away from the borders.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:21 PM

Even the choice of swords occurs in other ballads (likely originated in C81).

Captain Jack, is that you?

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:23 PM

with the greatest respect have you lost your marbles

When you've seen Sedayne perform a couple of times, you won't harbour any such suspicion.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:18 PM

"Several contributors to this thread have referred to episodes within this ballad as though they belong to this ballad alone. The majority of the older ballads of the 16th/17th centuries are riddled with commonplaces,"

I remember my daughter, who is now a 14 year old Baby Goth, nicking one of my Christy Moore cassettes when she was about 6 years old. I used to hear the strains of Little Musgrave emanating from her bedroom, and singing the song became her party piece (though she'd never admit it now).

I remember, some years later, when she'd heard a number of other English songs, she asked me, "What is it with the cheek and chin? It's ALWAYS cheek and chin."

Welcome, my love, to the Floating Verse.

*I'd like to think that those early experiences with tragic/morbid traditional songs have led her, in a somewhat unexpected way, to her current Gothy sensibilities...

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:03 PM

This like many of the Child Ballads & many other trad ballads many contain the "moral of the story". The versions may differ but the moral (usually) stays the same. Don't cheat on your spouse or with someone's elses spouse, they may bury you. The Twa Sisters, sibling rivalry, the mother & the penknife, etc. The difference in the versions suit the singer, listener, the regional culture. These are not the soaps of yesteryear but in a way they had their multi uses & passing on morals orally as a growing up guide was one of them. Nic's version is as well or better if it suits you personnaly as any of the other well done versions. When the versions travel sometimes they get watered down, sometimes they get spiced up. Sometimes it depends on where they travel to, sometimes it depends on who those versions are getting transported with. The story usually stays the same & the the morals usually do to, thought sometimes ovee time both may get lost in the passing of time travel. So the changes & differences don't detract or enhance from the ballad so much as our personnal take of each of the versions of the ballad appeal to our own physc. Granted there are poorer & richer versions but putting thata aside it doesn't make one better than another. An example would be Sir Lionel. In the American verisons the mystical & supernatural is almost completely missing but the versions Abraham Bailey is not a lesser ballad because of it (though it does retain something of the older European elements), moral on that one being it doesn't pay for the supernatural in ballads to mess with mere mortals, someone is always badder & they come along, eventually,,,, joke).

Barry

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: meself
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:44 PM

Re: 'commonplaces'. Helen Creighton would sometimes prompt 'source-singers' (to use a term I've learned off Mudcat) by asking if they knew "the song about the milk-white steed".

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:43 AM

This like many of the Child Ballads & many other trad ballads many contain the "moral of the story"

Whilst traditional ballads entertain on a similar level of amoral reportage that one finds in tabloids, they do so without the implied morality - or worse, the moral of the story, which just isn't there. You can't reduce the immediacy of narrative actuality (no matter how contrived) to the level of it being somehow didactic. They're not telling you not to do these things, rather they're thrilling you with stories of those who did, and with the entirely believable consequences thereof. Like Lucy Wan - what is the moral here? Don't fuck your sister, much less chop her in three in you get her pregnant?

Whilst it's absurd to think that any ballad operates on this level, we must at least recognise that life and art very often intermingle - as do the makers of soaps, hence the statement if anyone has been affected by any of the issues raised in this programme, here is the number to phone... if East Enders have touched upon a particularly sensitive subject. Often, after singing a sensitive ballad, I've thought of saying something similar, but the catharsis is in the experience of the story, hence there is, one would hope, no need for any more. In other words, it contains the essense of its own effectiveness, which can't be anything so simple as a mere moral. Often they're pure grand guignol, Long Lankin for instance, unless the moral here is be sure to pay the builders! The effectiveness of any narrative lies not in its morality, implied or otherwise, but in its complete lack of it, by which, one might experience a life less ordinary than ones own. No matter how complex, it's the thrill that makes it work, and that thrill can only exist by getting outside of the mundane moral mindset of the listener, offering them a glimpse of a world beyond.   

My favourite at the moment is the free-wheeling epic of Child #7 : Earl Brand. I sang this recently and a chap said to me "Well, he deserved to die - for having a relationship with a 15-year-old." Interesting how such things filter through into the modern consciousness, who would hear it in those terms!

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Morris-ey
Date: 23 May 08 - 06:29 AM

I had a badge made may years ago which read: Matty Groves is guilty as sin.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 May 08 - 06:44 AM

"the song about the milk-white steed"

Is that the one with the four-and-twenty young men playing football? I like that one.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 May 08 - 08:07 AM

I don't disagree with you Sedayne

The moral is only one level as is the lack of morality, as is the thrill, the entertainment, the story itself. The ballad works on many levels affecting & encompassing many human emotions, "the more the merrier".
My point was that in the final "analysis" it is neither poorer nor richer by imposed standards but more by the personnal tastes of the folk mill of the day or process of those that carry it on or if you will, keep the song alive. Be it by any treatment that the singer gives it.

Barry

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:12 AM

On another thread somebody said everyone in the Musgrave story made the wrong choice - and it's just as well they did, as if they hadn't there'd be no song. It's certainly hard to imagine a happy ending for Musgrave -

"Oh, well I like your bed, he said,
And well I like your sheets,
But I wouldn't know about your fair lady... oh, you mean this fair lady! Now, I know how this must look, but there's a perfectly simple explanation..."

Something Little Musgrave shares with Lucy Wan/Edward is the way it invites sympathy for someone who's in a bad situation that's only going to get worse - you've done that, and what the hell are you going to do now? Sympathy doesn't mean approval or thinking they're a great guy, just fellow-feeling - for a while the song puts you in their shoes.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:35 AM

"stereotyped characters" and "sensational plots" are pretty standard in ballads and folksongs generally. I'm not implying that that is is necessarily a failing.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 May 08 - 09:38 AM

Sympathy doesn't mean approval or thinking they're a great guy, just fellow-feeling - for a while the song puts you in their shoes.

Butter and Cheese and All is a good example of that; a comic misadventure but one that nevertheless has one gripped out of our general ability to if not sympathise with their predicament then to certainly empathise with how they're feeling. East Enders has had some good Butter and Cheese and All story-lines over the years...

As for Lucy Wan, I feel the most telling part is not so much the killing of the sister but the dialogue with the mother, especially when her ultimate reaction is What will you do when your father comes to know?. That just shifts it onto a whole other level - first time I heard it, the singer placed such emphasis on this it was as if the floor fell away. This was when I was fifteen, hearing it sung by a young female floor singer who also gave the line For there is a child between my two sides that's from you dear brother and I such a darkly erotic spin that it freaked me out for at least a fortnight. Even now...

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 May 08 - 12:54 PM

Does she gain no favor or sympathy for standing up for Musgrove so gallanty? After all Little Matty was fair, handsome, sometimes even a gauld knight. She was of good kin too, does she get no break for her brass & sass. After all her Lord, who thinks highly of the Mat prior to his sleeping with the wife, is off tending other fields far & away, there's a moral there too. Don't leave the back door open if you're not coming home for a spell. Well, it does spin a lovely tale, no matter the version. If Lord "Stay My Hand" were cast as a better man he would have spared at least one of the two, so he's not cast as a good bedfellow & mopre of an asshole. Should she suffer him just because they're married to each other? In real life she could've dumped him, in ballad style some blood is always called for to thicken the stew.

Barry

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: DannyC
Date: 23 May 08 - 01:16 PM

Hold on a minute - thar's a new version been discovered out in Californee starts like this:

City girls just seem to find out early
how to open doors with just a smile
a rich old man - and she won't have to worry
she can dress all up in lace and go in style

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 May 08 - 02:39 PM

"After all her Lord, who thinks highly of the Mat prior to his sleeping with the wife, is off tending other fields far & away, there's a moral there too. Don't leave the back door open if you're not coming home for a spell. Well, it does spin a lovely tale, no matter the version."

Attending to your duties, such as driving the cattle, is leaving the back door open? What happened is Barnard's fault?

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: GUEST,Steve Gardham
Date: 23 May 08 - 05:15 PM

Sedayne,
Yes ballads work on many levels and their effects are different for differnet audiences, but as your own example testifies they certainly work on the 'moral' level.

I happen to believe that the 'Cruel Mother' broadside is the original and certainly an important purpose here was to warn young girls of the nobility to avoid liaisons with servants. Child was wrong to identify Child 20 with European counterparts. The counterparts he quotes are actually relatives of C21. The few versions found in Denmark in the 19thc are most likely derived from Grundtvig's translations of British versions.

Subject: RE: Nic Jones - Analysis of Little Musgrave
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:48 PM

Hmmm. A lot of versions of the Cruel Mother jettison the conception altogether, beginning with the birth. In fact, I have a hunch the conception is a later addition as it seems a tad extraneous to the entire sense of the song. My favourite version is that as sung by Mrs Pearl Brewer in 1958 - listen to it at The Max Hunter Folk Song Collection. I use Mrs Brewer's tune with a Scottish set of words in my own version (currently playing on my Myspace page) and recently explored the notion that the protagonist of The Cruel Mother is, in fact, entirely innocent; a innocence that ultimately transcends the small minded morality that couches the litany of punishments.