O Brother vs. Morons

Subject: Dave Marsh Article
From: ukelady
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 10:48 PM

Here's an interesting article.

Marsh on Music Dave Marsh - Monday, April 16, 2001

For the past eight weeks, the number one selling country album in the United States has been the bluegrass-based soundtrack to the film "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" The record also is charting in the mid-teens on the pop album chart.

Maybe that doesn't seem like much to you but consider that the most important bluegrass artists of all time - Bill Monroe, the Stanley Brothers, Jimmy Martin and Flatt and Scruggs - never cracked the pop hot 100 at all. Ralph Stanley, the star of O Brother's soundtrack, has been making solo records for about 35 years without ever charting either an album or a single; the Stanley Brothers had only one chart single in 20 years.

Yet country radio programmers recently told the Washington Post they consider this music "poison." Absolutely nothing from the album is being programmed, not even the stuff by the Soggy Bottom Boys, which is a hit on Country Music Television (CMT). If you were already under the impression that there is no more stupid group of people in America than country radio programmers, consider the point proven.

Country radio asks and receives allegiance from its hitmakers that no other format can command. In return, it consistently rewards mediocrity. Mediocrity is exactly the difference between Jessica Andrews' personable 1999 debut album, "Heart Shaped World," and her current "Who I Am," whose title track is the current No.1 country single. Who I Am is so generic that I felt like the title really ought to be Who Am I?

Andrews at No.1 counts for something. But the real story is told by the album charts, where radio airplay is not a factor; only sales count there. There, O Brother is perched at No.14 as I write, gazing down at the Andrews album at No. 56.

Yet no one in country radio is even taking a fling at the O Brother material. Maybe the programmers talk themselves out of it because O Brother also includes some black gospel performances, or because they agree with me that the best thing on it is Stanley's unprogrammable "O Death." But what about the Alison Krauss / Gillian Welch duet on "I'll Fly Away?" What about the novelty potential of "In the Highways" by the pre-adolescent Peasall sisters?

Those can't be played even though they might work, because they might not. Mistakes are fatal to the careers of program directors, even though an environment in which mistakes can't be made is fatal to everything else. Every one of America's 148 country radio stations is being programmed in an environment that forbids such risks. That's because the buying and selling of radio stations in the "deregulated" world brought to you by Al Gore - a politician largely created by wads of Nashville cash - has spawned huge loads of debt and an army of brokers and bankers demanding it be "serviced" (a euphemism in both finance and brothels).

This situation doesn't exist only in country radio. It's worse there - but not much worse. All across the radio spectrum, you can hear almost nothing but nothingness. America's radio is at war with America's music. Broadcasting is sick and getting sicker. But if you're willing to work at it a little, the music - all kinds of it, especially the stuff that can't get airplay - is getting healthier and healthier. Learning to live without commercial radio is forcing people to make smarter records and to be aggressive in seeking alternate paths to their audiences.

This is the final measure of O Brother's triumph. To have broken the stranglehold of the programming morons in the most reactionary bastion of America's music world and gone all the way to No.1 may not be the story of the year, but as a harbinger, it might be the story of the decade.

(c) Copyright 2000 Dave Marsh Syndicated by ParadigmTSA

Here are the threads that have been started on this movie:
1. O Brother, Where Art Thou
2. Lyr Req: o brother
3. Lyr Req: O' Brother, 'rocky candy mountains'
4. New Film, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?
5. Oh brother where art thou ?
6. O Brother, where, etc.:Soundtrack/conc.
7. Lyr Req: o, brother where art thou soundtrack
8. I've just seen O Brother Where Art Thou
9. O Brother vs. Morons
10. BS: OH BROTHER VIDEO
11. 'Oh Brother' on stage
12. Oh Brother...
13. BS: o brother, where art thou
14. O Brother, Where Art Thou Video
--JoeClone, 19-Dec-01.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Troll
Date: 23 Apr 01 - 11:11 PM

Yer preachin' to the choir, Babe.

troll

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:05 AM

I love the way that this is all Al Gore's fault. I'm sure he used to lay awake nights wondering how he could prevent good music from being played on the radio.

Anyway, what right does such a political cheap-shot have being in an article about music?

You'd think the writer was a Mudcatter or something.

Alex

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:16 AM

Sad but oh so true.

By the way, what DOES Al Gore have to do with boring narrow sound-alike Country music? It was headin' in exactly this direction before he came on the scene. Plus, it's exactly the same in Canada. Did he fuck us up as well when we weren't looking? He must be a lot more powerful than I thought. I would have put the blame squarely on the white on white corporate Station Owners. Shania Rules! Awesome! I guess Crap will always sell.

Rick

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Judy Predmore
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 12:40 AM

Interesting article Evy / Ukelady. I've got to get out & see the film, because I hear there's some good music in the film that's not on the soundtrack. I heard the Kossoy Sisters, (Irene Saletan & her sister Ellen...) are in the film but not the soundtrack...

Judy

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Banjer
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 03:44 AM

Old news here...I haven't listened to commercial radio in years. It is an insult to my intelligence. I listen to cassettes when I drive and CD's or cassettes at home. (Sometimes I'll even drag out some of those old 45 and 33 1/3 records to play)

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 07:57 AM

Rick,

Crap that is well marketed and backed by huge corporate dollars will always sell. Unfortunately the reverse is usually true.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:02 AM

The Al Gore reference is unfortunate, but otherwise the article is right on target. The folks on this forum have known this for a long time, of course. Country radio (like other formats) is to music what McDonalds is to cuisine -- safe, predictable, and ultimately not very satisfying. The good stuff is out there, but first you have to learn where NOT to go looking for it.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Midchuck upstairs
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:55 AM

Well, Al Gore is the husband of the woman who made it her mission to decide, on behalf of every American, what music it was appropriate for us to listen to, and didn't get around to asking whether we wanted her help. I'd have voted against him just on that basis, to keep her from acquiring any real power. (Before you start yelling, "You think Bush is better!?" I voted Libertarian.)

The thing with Country radio is especially sad because the point when it changed was so obvious. It was when they revamped the procedure for tracking record sales, and got it into a massive computer database, which established that Garth Vader was really the best-selling recording "artist" in any genre at that time. That told the money boys where to go and what to do. Now you can't get country radio play unless (if male) you're under 40 and have a butt less wide than your hat brim, and sing recycled '70s rock; or (if female) are under 30, have a real cute belly button that your outfit always shows, and sing recycled '70s rock.

Remember when you turned on Country radio and got Willy or Waylon or Emmylou or The Possum? A lot of us do.

"...there's been an awful murder, down on Music Row...."

Peter.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: LR Mole
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 08:56 AM

Looking to the movies for music is like looking in a brothel for true love. There's some in there, but the owners would really rather you spend money. And radio is just a fecal siphon; is's just difficult to determine which end is which (not that there's anything wrong with money, but in large amounts it's bad for people).

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:04 AM

Check out my contribution to the DT. It's called "It sure as hell aint country"

Saw a bumper sticker, STAMP OUT INCEST BAN COUNTRY MUSIC

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:05 AM

Chuck, what is the difference between a libertarian and an arnachist?

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:28 AM

I don't consider myself a Libertarian. It was just less repugnant than either the Demmicans or the Republicrats, and I've never forgiven Nader for killing off the VW bug because he was uncomfortable with a final-oversteering car.

As near as I can figure, Libertarians-with-a-capital-L are simply anarchists who figure that if government is eliminated, people will all, by some magic, start behaving decently of their own accord.

I call myself a Rational Anarchist. Heinlein originated the term, as far as I know.

Anarchist = government is evil.

Rational = as long as people are imperfect, some government is a necessary evil.

Rational Anarchist = The function of the political process is to determine how little government we can get away with, and still have society function acceptably - not to solve all of society's problems by passing more laws.

Peter.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:05 AM

I find it interesting that, in this case, de-regulation is being blamed for the lack of diversity. According to most of the de-regulation arguments, "open markets" foster competition which brings us lucky consumers more choices. How will the de-regulators (most often from the Republican camp) spin such obvious empirical evidence refuting one of their primary arguments?

By the way - Nashville has always tried to exclude what they couldn't control. That's why you rarely here Waylon or Willie on the radio, and why the best country music comes from Austin, Texas and has for a very long time.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:38 AM

Well, I enjoyed the movie, primarily the music rather than the cow (udderly distasteful) and frog abuse (rivetting), and just maybe some old time country music/revivalist groups will get more serious consideration from major record labels. Of course, lord knows if they'll be able to deal with their success any better than any others, but good folk musicians deserve a crack at it, and who knows, maybe it will be a new wave!

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 10:53 AM

I think the shift in country music programming was more gradual than was suggested earlier. In fact, Chet Atkins has long been regarded as one of the driving forces behind the commercialization of country radio in the 1960's and 70's (not as a performer, but as a producer). I see it as the inevitable product of the corporations that control radio getting larger, and hence exerting greater control and making safer choices. To beat my earlier McDonalds/food-based analogy to death, imagine a multinational corporation acquiring the local diner -- how long do you think the food would stay the same? At best, they would try to co-opt the "atmosphere" of the place, so as to replicate it on a large scale. They would give you artificial diner food (served by someone named "Alice" in an "authentic" old-fashioned waitress outfit), just like country radio sometimes attempts to give us artificial "down-home pickin'," complete with cowboy hats and "aw shucks" posturing. It's pretty transparent, really.

The good news, at least in my part of the world (Boston, Massachusetts, USA), is that there are alternatives on the airways. Many of the public radio stations (some of which operate under the auspices of local colleges and universities) are heavily into acoustic programming, much of which is quite good, and is run by people who have a real love for (and knowledge of) the music. Programs like Mountain Stage are routinely broadcast around my area, featuring some of the best acoustic, folk, blues, etc. performers around. And some of the other programming (Prairie Home Companion, etc.) also features some outstanding people. The good stuff is out there, as long as you know where to look. Why would anyone with ears even bother with big commercial country radio?

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:16 AM

Well, Al Gore is the husband of the woman who made it her mission to decide, on behalf of every American, what music it was appropriate for us to listen to,

No, this is not true. She was working for a labelling/rating system, much like we have for movies. Then every American could decide, based on a more accurate appraisal of the contents, what music they would listen to (or let their kids listen to, which was more the issue).

Lying about Tipper Gore doesn't become you, Midchuck. I hope you were just misinformed.

Alex

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:33 AM

Lying? For stating the impression I got of what she was trying to do?

A lie consists of an intentional untruth, told with the intent to deceive. You can never call another person's statement about his subjective impression a lie unless you can read minds.

I will go so far as to confess to expressing myself badly. I should have said: "...who, it appears to me, made it her mission to decide...."

But there's a difference between sloppy self-expression and lying. To most of us.

Peter.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:40 AM

Midchuck, I never accused you of lying. I just said it didn't become you, and further hoped you were instead misinformed.

Alex

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:44 AM

Ah, yes, the HORROR of commercial radio. I NEVER listen to it by choice. I have it foisted on me in stores and restaurants, even in a natural health clinic!!! (how ironical)

And the utter banality of what passes for "country" music these days. What a joke. Go wind up your Garth and Shania dolls, and put them beside Barbi and Ken.

Willie Nelson, Johhny Cash, and Emmy Lou Harris play real country music. Remember? Hank Williams did too. That was then.

But Big Brother is minding the till now, folks, and has been for a long time.

God help humanity.

- LH

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: First Amendment
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:45 AM

Alex/Mousethief may have called Midchuck a liar, and then lied about calling Midchuck a liar, but it is my job to preserve and protect Alex/Mousethief's right to call Midchuck a liar and then deny that he did so.

First Amendment

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: chip a
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 11:47 AM

I lived in Boston for several years back in the sixties. I even remember some of it! In fact , I was raised on the South Shore. Back then, I could listen to all sorts of alternative stuff on the radio. I bet the choices are even greater now. But, that doesn't help all of us who are out in the country now. The best I can find on todays radio where I live is a country oldies show on Friday night out of Atlanta. Whistle Stop, I don't guess I'd trade the Ga. mountains for Boston but I wish I had your radio!

Chip A.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:01 PM

I saw the video yesterday and rushed out to buy the CD today -I doubt whether any of the CD would ever be played on British radio .

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:14 PM

A thing much worse than having commercial country radio ignore your favorite music would be to have them embrace it. Can you imagine if the Nashville recording community tried to turn out their version of Ralph Stanley and Emmy Lou? The resulting all-pervasive Muzak versions of "O, Death", performed by a bunch of bargain basement Boxcar Willies, would constitute a whole new circle of hell.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Matt_R
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:17 PM

Music changes through time! Get over it!

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM

It just isn't fair that more people don't like what I like!

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: DougR
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 06:40 PM

Bart: I won't quarrel with you over your remark about most deregulation taking place under Republican administratins, but I would remind you that one of the most diasterous deregulation decisions made to date was made by the Jimmy Carter administration: deregulation of the airlines. We ain't seen nothing yet as far as that one is concerned, in my opinion, of course.

I read the writer of the article, Dave Marsh, to be laying the blame at Al Gore's doorstep because I think he was referring to the deregulation of radio stations (and I believe that one came, too, during a Democratic administration, Mr. Clinton's I believe.)

And Alex, it sure reads to me that you were saying Midchuck was lying. Don't know how one would read it any other way, myself.

DougR

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Scabby Doug AT Work
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:15 AM

Re Ickle Dorrit's comment:

This CD IS getting regular airplay on British radio. Country shows on BBC Radio 2 have featured several songs from the album, and I believe BBC Radio Scotland's "Brand New Opry" show has also featured cuts.

I don't listen to many country radio shows, so if I'm managing to catch it in my sporadic listening - it must be getting more play than I know about.

I think that the film initially turned people on to the music, and now the film is on video, people who have heard the music, but missed the film when it was in cinemas'll probably rent it.

IMHO.

SD

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:55 AM

If you want proof that "Country Music Lovers" today wouldn't recognize "Country Music" of the past, visit the lab where Karen works. They swap around on stations and CD's to keep everybody happy so the range goes all across the board......some nights it's even Vivaldi.

Several times though, Karen has played a few CD's that she likes of Emmylou's, one of them pretty solid with Emmy's renditions of country classics. Invariably when this happens, she has asked if some country would be OK and the three "real country" fans say "Sure!" Then they listen a bit, get real quiet and ignore it, asking questions like, "Who is this?"

The times they tune in to the country station Karen has thought they were pop at first. The only key that it's a country station is from the "I'm a hilljack" style of ads they play.

Spaw

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: kendall
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:38 AM

Matt, really great music does not change with time. Beethoven, Chopin, Mozart etc. Do you believe that this thumping and screeching will be around in 100 years?

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,jimbob
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:44 AM

The morons will always win , however, I'm glad to see so many fighting the good fight. We can hear some U.S. radio here in Dublin Prairie Home companion and mountain stage and yes the real music can be found there, sometimes. My old man used to listen to something called A.F.N.(American Forces Network)is that still going ?is it any good?

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: mkebenn
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:47 AM

Guys and Gals, Willie, Waylon, Dolly, and Mr. Cash are still there, and still recording GREAT music. I can't listen to rock stations anymore either. Maybe I should be a programer, bet I could develope a foremat NOBODY would listen to LOL. Mike

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Frogmore
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:21 AM

The expression I've used, for some time now, for Nashville-generated, so-called "country" music is: S.A.P. music. Sap. (Southern-accented pop.)

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:31 AM

Kendall, if thumping and screeching was good enough for pre-Columbian Native Americans, it's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:49 AM

I think I realized a long time ago that the kinds of music I like are not shared by a large number of other people-- but that's OK. NEFFA is just about overflowing the Natick site-- and there is never time enough to see all the friends I would like to see there. To quote a different Heinlein story "if you only have a small bucket does it make a difference whether you fill it from a little pool or a big one?" Bartholomew, I agree with you-- prefer Ralph Stanley's O Death (and Dock Boggs to that!) to any version of it that Nashville might come up with.
but don't forget that the Golden Age of Country Music (1922-1941 IMHO) came about because record companies would record just about ANYTHING. . . with self-publishing and small companies this is going on now. . .again, check out the Camsco booth (Dick, if I keep doing this can I get a discount?) to get an appreciation of the incredible variety in traditional music today!
to return to Evy's original subject, it's kinda fun and subversive to think that a lot of people are hearing the clear-quill traditional music through the O Brother soundtrack in a way they've never heard it before. Maybe this is where the next generation is going to come from.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:02 AM

Pete, I think there's an important point between the lines of your posting. We seem to want it both ways -- we want the quality that comes with small-scale production, but the ease of access that comes with big corporate production/distribution networks. We're free to want both, but I don't think we'll get both. My choice, and I think the choice of a lot of poeple on this forum, is to expend the extra effort to seek out the good stuff -- whether on recordings (many of which are independently produced and distributed), on the radio (often the lower-powered stations at the far end of the dial), or live (comparatively sparsely-attended and poorly promoted performances). Connecting with other like-minded folks on forums like this is a way to learn where the good stuff can be found. I'm happy to let the big corporations continue peddling crap to those folks who want it; it has nothing to do with me.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:25 AM

Whistlestop-- I totally agree; you said it better than i could. What I wish I could have more of is serendipity-- the thrill of finding someone or something you didn't know you liked until you heard it at random. For a small example were it not for Mudcat I would never have known the name Rick Fielding, or simply gone right past it while loking through the Folk-Legacy booth at Neffa-- so many CD's, so little time (and finite money) but thanks to Mudcat I said (last year) this is worth getting. . .other examples abound.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Mooh
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:47 AM

There's CMT which plays country videos pretty much steadily throughout the clock. I'm amused though when I surf by and see what they call "Rockin' Country". Once upon a time alot of it would be known as hard rock. I guess if they can't make it they steal it. All music is derivative to some degree, but recatagorizing something as country doesn't make it so, no matter what the spin doctors say.

Marketing is the new religion, beware the crusades.

Peace. Mooh.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 12:17 PM

Spaw, I can sympathize with Karen. Even here in the "Heartland," Wichita KS America, there is only ONE reasonably good country music station (AM, of course) that plays the oldies (yes, even some Ralph Stanley, Bill Monroe, George Jones, and thank the gods, Willie, Waylon, and a bunch more of the Outlaws). It's the only station ever played in either of our vehicles, when we're not playing tapes or CDs--which is mostly.

Midchuck, I love that "Garth Vader"--I'd never heard him called that, but boy, does it suit! IMO, that gentleman is at least half a bubble off of plumb.

Larry Cordle, who wrote "Murder on Music Row," is a sterling example of the never-had-a-hit school, but have you checked out "Black Diamond Strings" on that same album? Great story to that song, too.

And Matt, lighten up--how can you have it both ways? "Music changes through time! Get over it!" and "... if thumping and screeching was good enough for pre-Columbian Native Americans, it's good enough for me" are oxymorons. I'm perfectly willing to let you buy all the Shania Barbie and Garth Vader your eardrums can stand; just don't expect me to enjoy it when you pull up next to me at a stop light with the bass on your stereo thudding so loud it shakes my pickup. You're drowning out my Coming Home to Winfield tape, damn it.

And yes, the music can still be found. Around here, it's mostly "made by hand" in the small clubs and private jams.

Lin

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM

Wow Lin...time was when we rode together in your pickup back at the Mudcat Jukejoint...

And I don't like Shania, I hate her. Garth Brooks is pretty good, I like more of his older songs better. Though it is true that my car may be thumping, but to Spacehog, more likely.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: kendall
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 12:30 PM

Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,RAILON
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 12:47 PM

YEP! ALEX called MIDCHUCK a LIAR!

Then ALEX LIED about that!

Time for ALEX to start another thread---

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:16 PM

Hi Matt. I haven't forgotten sharing a ride to watch Lonesome E.J. and 'Spaw play "Rebel Without a Cause." (Good grief, nearly a year ago...) Didn't they do a bang-up job?

But if we take my truck, we play the Old Stuff. :>)

Lin

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:17 PM

I believe that the cycle in most music begins at the grassroots, a spontaneous generation of sound with a local or "cult" following, and then develops into the commercial flowering of that sound. This is a "bottom-up" evolution by which a unique or revolutionary music comes to popular attention. Unfortunately, it becomes at that point Pop Music, and the commercial powers that be then decide that they know what's going to be best for the listeners, and the trend becomes "top-down".

But have no fear, for the cycle repeats itself: Folk and Blues made a comeback in the mid-sixties just when commercial pop was at its most maudlin, Punk smashed Glam-rock in the chops just when the life was going out of it, and Roots Music has the potential to cut through the current Vogue-Cover Nashville Scene like a hot knife through butter.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM

Matt - People who have been exposed, over a lengthy lifetime, to high quality serious songwriting and high quality and unique original music NOT necessarily designed with Top 40 in mind...will NEVER like the bland, commercialized, same old pitiful crap that dominates commercial radio....and always has. It's nothing more than filler between obnoxious advertising, after all, so why would it be any good?

So get over it yourself.

And you don't like Shania???? I'm gobsmacked! When Blind Drunk in Blind River hears about that he is gong to be very ticked off at you. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Matt_R
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 09:53 PM

DU!
DU HAST!
DU HAST MICH
DU HAST MICH GEFRAGT!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Paul G.
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:08 PM

Okay, I suppose somebody's gonna flame me big time for the following heresy, but...for all of the talk about the purity of Emmylou's recordings I wonder if anyone other than me has purchased and listened to her latest, "Red Dirt Girl". *In my personal opinion* it's an over-produced effort to pull Emmy into the Country-clone genre of contemporary country radio. Every cut sounds the same (virtually)and the noise of synthetic percussion is everywhere. Probably not her fault, though. Sometimes you have to pay to play. I had such high hopes for this recording when I brought it home. I was deeply dissappointed. Is it just me?

pg

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:11 PM

Why should Country radio get all the blame. There are at least 3 programming services in this country who program Top 40, pop and rap/hiphop stations with the main criteria being song length and bpm (beats per minute). Most of this is done through the personalized, friendly touch of a computer program who tells the station what to play, when to play it, when to stop playing it and requires only a sales staff to sell enough commercial airtime to fill 24 hours in a day.

Saw "Field of Dreams" last night. If you build it, he will come. Paraphrase that; If you play it, they will listen!

BTW, SIE HABEN MICH GEFRAGT!!!!!!! (You don't know me.)

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:26 PM

YEah Matt.....Ya' gotta' "drink the du".........

Paul.....I'm a huge Emmylou fan and I pretty much agree on Red Dirt, but its more of a tack for her I believe. Never does she repeat herself if you get my meaning. The Ramblers stuff was pretty pure, but then before that we heard some overproduced mixed with real rootsy stuff, and then some rock/country/rock...........I think she's an excellent student of the music and in a way pays homage to many different styles. I dunno...........She sure as hell brought a lot of country back to country and I think she still experiments a lot too. The music on RDG is a lot less objectionable to me then the production.

Spaw

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:38 PM

For most radio stations, the programmers have little or no opinion about the musical value of the music they add to the format. They only make a determination on whether the song can be sold to the demographic group that they service. Music creeps in from all over that, in its own way subverts the format.

The song "Creep", by Radiohead, is an example of this. They are a serious group, making very interesting albums. But that song was novel enough to bring them into the mainstream; now they have to live it down.

Artists like Bonnie Raitt and Carlos Santana have similarly, in the past few years, bent both their music and the format itself enough to fit. Perhaps Emmy Lou's producer is trying to do the same thing with her latest album.

I think that the "O, Brother" music prsents a much tougher problem for Country programmers. This is the music that Country radio has out-grown, performed (in some cases) by artists that they feature; if you have paid any attention to Country radio over the past few years, you can see that Capital "C" Country has made a conscious effort to disavow its hillbilly roots. There is no Merle Haggard, no Hank Williams, no Buck Owens, no Chet Atkins, no Loretta Lynn, no Tammy Wynette on Country radio - not even a casual tip of the hat to the icons because the programmers know that if they open the doors to those guys even a crack, their core audience will not want to hear the new stuff. their only choice is to stonewall it, Jackson. And it's their loss. They have chosen a path toward irrelevance

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Matt_R
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:46 PM

Thanks for the Radiohead plug, Bart! "Creep" is my personal theme song!

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:10 AM

Got the soundtrack today, largely due to this thread. Love it! Thanks everybody for telling us about it!

Alex

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: SeanM
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:35 AM

"Po' Lazarus".

I think that's all anyone needs to say to recommend the soundtrack. Though "Big Rock Candy Mountain" and the maniflod versions of "Man of Constant Sorrow" recommend as well. And pretty much anything else ... Aw, heck. Just buy the dang thing.

M

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:56 AM

I must admit that the percussive sound in "Po Lazarus" really jolted me when I first put the CD in the car deck. Is that like shovels hitting the ground, or axes on a tree or something? There's no warning and then THWAACK! Just about jumped out of the driver's seat. A little adrenaline with your morning tea?

As I said, GREAT cd. Walk don't run and get it today.

Interesting to see it was produced by TBone Burnett, who is one of my fave singer-songwriters in his own right.

Alex

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: SeanM
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:07 AM

It's axes. If you read the liners, the first track is a Lomax recording of a prison gang breaking wood.

Yeehaw and all that. Can't wait for "Down from the Mountain". Apparently, the Fairfield Four (who do "Lonesome Valley" on the soundtrack) took Lazarus for the live show...

Sounds good to me.

SeanM

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: kendall
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:45 AM

Noise will never replace poetry.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 09:16 AM

DOUGR and whoever cares about "radio deregulation": I don't know what kind of deregulation there was left to do in the 90's that Al Gore could have participated in; as I understand it the most significant change occurred in 1986 on Reagan's watch, and by his direct decree. This was the elimination of the "fairness doctrine" which stated that radio news/spoken word programming had an obligation to present both sides of an issue. This change led directly to the proliferation of right-wing talk shows on American airwaves (there are a few liberal talk shows but they are vastly outnumbered), specifically on privately held stations. Like Rush Limbaugh & Howard Stern.

What other deregulation was there?

Willie-O in the Home of the CBC.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:33 AM

There was a big change about the number of "media outlets" - both radio stations and TV stations - that could be owned in a single market by a single entity. Essentially, one big company can own (and program) as many as they want now. This has resulted in the growth of huge media groups like Evergreen and Jaycor that control multiple stations in the same market.

This was a great thing for corporate radio. You could sell advertising for multiple stations, target your programming for very specific demographic groups, maximize the use of your studios and broadcast systems; all ways to cut costs and raise the bottom line. Unfortunately, this also results in many outlets working from the same corporate point of view. There goes the neighborhood.

Hopefully, others can fill in the details or correct any misrepresentations I may have made. I didn't mean, when I first mentioned deregulation, to try to blame it on the republicans alone. Business has friends on both sides of the aisle. Most regulation is imposed for a reason. Those reasons are often ignored when the deregulating fever hits. If the reason is gone, the regulation should go to, but that has not usually proven to be the case.

We seem to have forgotten that the airwaves belong to the people; as such regulation by our representatives should exist without question. Instead, we have auctioned it all off - just like the government did when we acquired new territory, and which this administration wants to do with the resources on public lands today. How many "vast wastelands" will our short-sightedness create?

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:04 PM

Willie-O: I bow to your superior knowledge of radio deregulation. I should have checked sources before commenting. I'm a bit familiar with what Bart speaks of and in my opinion, it was a sad day for radio when the big conglamorates took over the airwaves.

As to Right Wing talk shows versus Left Wing, I guess there must be a bigger audience out there in radioland for the conservative point of view than there is for the liberal. I'm sure if the audience was there, radio stations would respond with more liberal leaning shows. And I apologize for thread creep because what I just wrote had nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of this thread!

DougR

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:38 PM

I have the nagging feeling that Steve Earl is going to break through on the Country Charts soon because his songs have such catchy melodies. In fact, I'm surprised they didn't release I Don't Want to Lose You Yet off of Transcendental Blues as a single.

Question is: Will success spoil Steve, or will he be the crack in the dyke that floods Nashville with real music again?

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:47 PM

For those of you interested in(maybe "disgusted by" is a better term) the way that mass-market radio is programmed, let me share a horrifying secret about radio programming that no one has yet brought up--

Being involved in music, as I have been, over the years I have been connected with lots of radio personalities, and more than a few behind the scenes people. One day, I was taping some old albums in the huge but mostly un-used record library at the radio station where the MAGIC format was created (and it was created, with specifications for everything from announcer style to what commercials are acceptable to an ironclad formula for what type of song can be played when in which hour) and I found a stack of cards with song titles, artists names, each with a number rating----"What are these numbers?" I asked, and was told that these numbers indicated how popular the songs were with the format's target audience--"So you can play the songs that are most popular and avoid the songs that they don't like?" I asked, somewhat naively.

"Well, sort of,we do keep anything off the playlist that they don't like, but it is equally important not to play the songs that they really like too often, either. If you create too much excitement, there will inevitably be a letdown--and that could cause us to lose listeners."

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Midchuck
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:47 PM

It spoiled him once already. He was up there in the mid-eighties with Guitar Town and Copperhead Road and like that, then he took a considerable vacation at state expense due to recreational pharmaceuticals, and got clean (not his language, that stayed the same) and started over.

I think the best thing he's done was his first album after he started over, Train A'Comin, but maybe I'm prejudiced because it's the most purely acoustic and it has Norman on it. There's also some great stuff on The Mountain, the bluegrass album he did with Del and them.

But to make it on today's Country radio, he'd have to take a good many years of Bland Pills.

Peter.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:10 PM

I don't understand why someone hasn't come up with an oldies country format; I'm positive that someday somebody will. It took a long time for oldies rock to become commercially viable, and now you hear it all the time. Maybe "Classic Country", like Classic Rock?

Chicago's one country station does an oldies call-in show on Friday nights and some of that stuff sounds so great. . .

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:10 PM

I remember back a few years ago Johnny Cash took a full page ad out in the trades papers. The country music programmers were ignoring the great Unchained album at the time just as they had ignored the even greater American Recordings collection before it. The ad was just a picture of Johnny giving them the finger.
The sad truth is that we are better off artistically with good music sneaking in under the radar. The industry would undermind the quality with pretty faces and waterdown versions. Who really wants to hear the Backstreet Boys doing "ST James Infirmary" or Aerosmith doing "Muleskinner Blues"? It would happen if that is where the buck was.
Gotta go Al Gore is backing up my toilet.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM

It is something of a mystery why country music stations don't play old records -- the rock and roll stations do -- what would they do without the Beatles? The only hypothesis that comes to mind is that are ashamed of early country music. That it should be such "unsophisticated" music, full of wierdos and odd voices, is a threat to the consumer image, which is now aimed at low to middle income suburbanites.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:28 PM

Mousethief and sean, If you don't already know and want more "PO LAZARUS" rounders Alan Lomax Series is AMAZING. The very good "oh, brother" soundtrack pales in comparison to it. and there are like 20+ CDs of them (Volumes based on the American south) and more coming. I recommend Murder's Home,
Southern Journey's- hwy 61 miss.,
both Georgia sea island volumes of Southern Journey's,
Bad man Ballads,
Fred Mcdowell -the first recordings,
Mississippi Saints and Sinners ( or anything else with Sid Hemphill)
or the whole blasted lot of them for that matter.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 01:41 PM

LEJ, I sincerely hope that Steve Earle does not break through on country radio -- I think he's the best songwriter working today, and if he was to "cross over" to mainstream country radio, I think it would destroy me. Fortunately, lots of people can't stand his voice, and it is certainly rougher around the edges than what you generally hear on country radio. Also, he's an ornery son of a bitch, so he wouldn't fit their marketing plans all that well (plus he's on his own label, which is a small detail they'd have to take care of).

I think it's more likely that we'll start hearing Steve Earle songs done by other artists on country radio (and I agree, "I Don't Want To Lose You Yet" is a good candidate for this). Kind of like the smooth cover versions of Tom Waits songs that we sometimes hear, even though you'll almost never hear the originals on mainstream radio.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 01:52 PM

Bartholomew and Peter T.:

Some country stations have already figured that out. In Wichita USA, KFDI has "Today's Country" on FM and "Classic Country" on AM. Needless to say, if we're listening, it's AM.

And Guest DJH, I wholeheartedly agree that the Rounder Records Lomax series is terrific--so are the Smithsonian CDs...good stuff.

Lin

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 02:36 PM

Whistle and Midchuck, good points well made. I find it interesting to trace the paths of the two young upstarts who shook up the Country Scene back in the early 80s with their first albums...Steve Earl and Dwight Yoakam. Both exhibited much of the throw-back roots spirit that I like in Country. Dwight was a definite disciple of Hank and Merle, and he put a duet with KD Lang on Gram Parsons' Sin City on that first one just to give notice as to some of his influences. Steve had a more esoteric background, and you could hear strains of Townes Van Zandt, Duane Eddy, Earl Monroe, and even Springsteen in his stuff. Both hit hard and early, but from that point their paths diverged. Dwight has become the example of what Nashville finds acceptably rebellious, and he's in the regular rotation on the CMT video playlist. He has also drifted further into what I call "Vogue-cover Country"...slick video, glam models, and Dwight in his trademark tight jeans, cowboy boots and ten-gallon pulled low over his eyes. In other words, Dwight seems to have bought into the image and marketing aspect of the music. Steve, on the other hand, has followed his own path, has shown complete disdain for Nashville, and his image is basically that of an ex-druggy Biker with a bad attitude, which is not at all what the Country Marketing Machine is looking for. They prefer their bad boys in the clean-cut and easily digestible mode, like Dwight and Travis Tritt.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 09:13 PM

Another movie, The General's Daughter, used some honest-to-God traditional music for incidental music. If anyone's unfamiliar with where this folk stuff comes from, I'd be happy to make recommendations and sell them CDs. Just call CAMSCO Music at 800/548-FOLK. THere's some awe-inspiring remastered classic stuff available on CD.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: kendall
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 09:43 PM

It was probably Al Gore who broke my guitar too.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:30 AM

Another why, Kendall, it would have been fortuitous for Al Gore to win the election. You could have applied for a government grant to replace your broken guitar! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:31 AM

Oops! I left out the word, "reason," Kendall, but you probably got the gist of it anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 08:37 AM

Very astute, LEJ. I liked Dwight Yoakum originally, but I think you're right that he ended up focusing more on his image than anything else. There's still some real talent and substance there, but he's buried it pretty deep in the marketing BS. As for Steve Earle, I am more impressed by him with every new album -- just an incredible talent, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: O Brother vs. Morons
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 02:24 PM

Maybe I have a slightly different take on Dwight and Steve Earle. I really like them both, but you can tell that they came to the music from different directions.

Steve Earl is a writer and has managed to avoid the pitfalls that Nashville "stardom" offers. The need to produce product to feed the image invariably stifles a writer. You stop following your inspiration and begin to repeat yourself. Steve Earl continues to move in directions that the record labels can't handle (i.e., market). Substance use, I believe anyway, contributes to his career vicissitudes but doesn't (necessarily) dictate them. Whatever the cause, Steve Earl remains his own man and remains a vital creative force.

Dwight has always been about personality as much as music. He writes some, but has also developed his career using other people's songs. To stay fresh he has developed other creative outlets, such as acting, rather than exploring other styles of music.

Both of these guys have a pretty impresseive body of work out there. I'd be happy to be classed with either of them.