BS: Defeat Bush and then what?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:19 PM

No I'm NOT saying that a vote for Kerry is like voting for Hitler. I'm saying a vote for Kerry is a vote for Bush, and a vote for either, is like blindfolding yourself in the same way the Germans did when they voted for Hitler.

Let us not pretend here, Amos. People as reasonable, thoughtful, kind, blind and lazy as you voted for Hitler.

Or are you going to try and suggest that the minions who voted for Hitler were, in fact, just little Hitler clones?

I don't think so.

Kerry is an authoritarian wolf in nobless oblige, little lambie clothes.

The fact that you and the other Kerry apologists here refuse to accept Kerry's actual stated positions (like being pro-war, pro-NAFTA, pro-Patriot Act) despite your pathetic claims to the contrary, doesn't fool everyone. Just most everyone.

You all keep claiming that Kerry supports war just a little bit less than Bush. Supports NAFTA just a little bit less than Bush. Supports the Patriot Act just a little bit less than Bush.

In this sort of duplicitous, hypocritical mindset, you get to VOTE FOR THE LITTLE BIT LESSER EVIL. You tell yourselves VOTE FOR KERRY AND EVERYTHING WILL BE JUST FINE.

Not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:33 PM

I thought so, GUEST. Jerk that knee, baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:44 PM

I'm going to say the same thing here I said in another thread today:

Voting for Kerry is easy sleazy way to vote this year without any conscious thought, just like Republicans do.

Voting for Kerry is the easiest way to vote this year of all, isn't it? Easy as in "I, like DougR, don't even have to seriously look at the candidate choices, I can just do the easy thing and vote against Bush."

Choosing to vote for Nader or Cobb takes a bit more than that. An examination of ALL the candidates positions, but ESPECIALLY Kerry's. Why Kerry's in particular? Because Nader and Cobb voters would like to see Bush gone too. But we also understand that if there is precious little difference between Bush and Kerry on the biggest issues, like war, trade, human rights globally and civil rights in the US, the Patriot Act, etc, voting for Kerry would truly be throwing away our vote.

It is wrong to vote for Kerry just because that is the easy, convenient, politically expedient, more socially acceptable thing to do. And that is what the "Anybody But Bush" lesser of two evil Kerry voters are doing.

I've been here long enough to know which ones of you claimed to be SO opposed to the Iraq war before the Democratic primaries, and came out of the Democratic primaries as cheerleaders for Kerry's "stay the course" Iraq, Afghanistan, and war on terrorism policy.

I remember which ones of you Kerry supporters ranted and railed against the Patriot Act before the Democratic primaries, and now barely mention it or give it a second thought, because that would actually be inconsistent with your decision to take the easy way out this year (again) and vote for a candidate who is against everything you said you stood for less than a year ago.

I am fully aware of which ones of you are hypocrites, and will engage in the cyber-equivalent of tarring and feathering anyone who mentions your hypocrisy, and the inconvenient evidence the Mudcat archive has against you.

But Kerrymen, I refuse to remain silent about your phoniness and hypocrisy, or sugar coat it to make it easier for you to swallow. You are phonies and hypocrites. Not because I say so, but because YOU have said so, and we have the forum archive to prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:48 PM

Jerk it, boy!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:56 PM

Nerd, you do win the prize this year for being the naked emperor's most loyal sycophant.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

Bush = Violence = Porn = WASPMale sado worship = Ad Hominem avoidance

.............metaphorically speaking, of course...

Vote for Kerry, and things will finally start to get better. Kerry's only problem here is that he isn't stimulated by 'low ball' entendre, and the neo-cons can't stop kicking the sand around the sandbox long enough to let anyone start thinking straight again.

Guest is 'acting like' a neo-con... again...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:04 PM

And you win second place as most loyal Kerry sycophant, ttr. Not that far behind Nerd, actually.

Keep up the good work with your "guilt by association" tactics. I'm sure it will convince the choir of the rightness of your position and theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:06 PM

No, GUEST,

You ARE the naked emperor in this debate. After all, I've already said that we need to BOTH vote for Kerry AND try to get more progressive people into Congress, but you persist in claiming that all Kerry supporters say "VOTE FOR KERRY AND EVERYTHING WILL BE JUST FINE." I DON'T say that! None of us say that!

I have pointed out numerous ways in which Kerry will be better than Bush, you have ignored them.

I have pointed out that you have ignored them, and invited you to respond. You have ignored that too.

Then you started foaming at the mouth and invoking Hitler. Good Job, GUEST! That's the way to establish credibility in a debate. Accuse your opponents of voting for Hitler!

As for this:

"You are phonies and hypocrites. Not because I say so, but because YOU have said so, and we have the forum archive to prove it."

It looks like GUEST is now accusing us of...























Flip-Flopping!

Are you SURE you aren't President Bush, GUEST?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,President Bush
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:23 PM

Or maybe I am really Hitler, and I'm just here at Mudcat campaigning for Bush.

Or maybe I'm Tom DeLay.

You know guys, these sorts of pathetic attempts to paint Nader and Cobb voters as nasty Republican because they aren't voting for your man, will eventually blow up in your faces, the same way that Kerry's attempt to paint himself as the quintessential American hero warrior blew up in his.

The problem is your lack internal consistency in your thinking, in order to justify (to yourselves) your decision to vote the most politically expedient way you can imagine.

Which just shows there is a deep disconnect in your personalities about who you say you are, and what you truly are based upon your actions.

The Kerry camp is full of rationalizers and justifiers who are casting their votes for the lesser of two evils, just like they always have.

If you had even an ounce of creative, positive imagination, if you truly had hope, if you truly believed in the best things in the world rather than railing against the worst of it, you wouldn't be able to cast a vote for a Republican or a Democrat for the remainder of your days on earth.

But that isn't you guys. You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate.

Best of luck bickering over the flatware you will eat it with.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:27 PM

...Or maybe you're just raving, Guest...

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:35 PM

No, I'm not raving ttr. I'm speaking the truth as I see it, and as it relates to you personally. So of course you are going to try and paint me as crazy. That makes you feel safe, doesn't it?

If the problem is with me, then you don't have to examine your thinking about any of this, do you? You can just continue to blindly vote Democratic, no matter how bad the candidate actually is, and this particular candidate is REALLY bad, possibly even worse than Clinton was.

But hey, if acting like you've had a lobotomy works for you to keep voting Democrat, good luck with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 01:53 PM

Ok ohhhh kayyy all ye trolls and wannabe Guitar pickers!

Having knocked the fun out of Mudcatting and sent all the folk musician characters elsewhere why do you think any of us folkies still come here?

Not to read your shit and that's a fact. How about subtle hypnotic bad grammar to make you into Concertina zombies, or croaking Seashanty wannabes, or squaking Extremely Contrary Uilleann Pipers or Screeching Fiddle Contortionists.

Did I say Melodianists or Mandolinsturbators?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:05 PM

If you don't like serious political discussions sorefingers, then why do you feel compelled to rudely interrupt one?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:50 PM

You're not raving GUEST.

You accused us of voting for Hitler, and then told us to eat heaps of shit while arguing over flatware.

But you're perfectly composed and collected.

You STILL have not answered the simples of my questions: why not vote for Kerry AND support progressive candidates for congress and other offices? Why not mobilize for progressive causes AND vote for Kerry?

Why not GUEST?

You don't have much to say on this point. But you certainly are ENTERTAINING when you're raving, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:01 PM

You know Nerd, your over the top hysterical claim that I accused you of voting for Hitler is just so bloody absurd. Just like the accusation that I told you to eat shit.

And the game you keep playing, trying to "prove" I twist peoples' words to suit my own agenda is as childish as claiming I'm raving. People aren't as stupid and gullible as you presume they are, Nerd.

Now, to answer your oh so clever questions (as if answering them will shut your donkey braying trap up, but we can all hope)to me:

"why not vote for Kerry AND support progressive candidates for congress and other offices?

Because Kerry doesn't support the progressive agenda that progressive candidates support. He is proposing an agenda that is frighteningly similar to Bush's agenda. As any progressive will tell you, I would be throwing my vote away by voting for Kerry, because a vote for Kerry is a vote for Bush's agenda.

"Why not mobilize for progressive causes AND vote for Kerry?"

Because that will aid the Democratic party, and play right into their strategy to defeat the progressive third party movement in this country. Why should I vote for a man who is leading the party that is actively working to destroy everything I believe in?

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:18 PM

Okay, GUEST, now we can talk.

You are a partisan representative of what you call "the progressive third party movement," which sounds suspiciously like a bunch of progressives not even organized enough to pick a single party in which to be progressive. Will this movement change the face of American politics? Perhaps, but not in 2004.

You see voting for Kerry as "not helping" this movement.

That's fine. More power to you.

Now on this forum, most leftists are NOT partisan members of "the progressive third party movement." We would like to see this country move to the left. That is our goal. We believe voting for Kerry will be instrumental in doing that.

You accuse US of being sycophantic followers of a particular leader. We are not. I don't love Kerry all that much, truth be told. But I have goals.

I recognize that you also have a goal. But YOU are the one caught up in "party politics" because YOUR goal is the one defined by parties. If the Republican Party moved to the left and the Democrats to the right, I'd probably be a Republican. I have no loyalty to a "party" per se. I have a loyalty to my goals, many of which in 2004 are achievable via a party. None of them are achievable by voting for Cobb.

Now, when you start to say things like:

I'm not saying voting for Kerry is like voting for Hitler. I'm saying a vote for Kerry is a vote for Bush, and a vote for either, is like blindfolding yourself in the same way the Germans did when they voted for Hitler.

You reveal the vacuity of your own position and your OWN tendency to twist words. "I'm not saying voting for Kerry is like voting for Hitler. I'm just saying that it's like voting for Hitler in this particular way!"

That dog won't hunt, GUEST! YOU let that particular genii out of the bottle. YOU invoked Hitler and accused of of being just like the people who voted for Hitler. That is, in political arguments, a "race to the bottom."

You also said:

"You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate.

Best of luck bickering over the flatware you will eat it with."

Where I come from, that looks remarkably like "You're voting Democrat? eat shit, asshole."

My apologies if I misinterpreted it, but deep down I think you know I didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:37 PM

OK Nerd. You win. I'm wrong. Bye bye now.

But just so you know. Today is my birthday. For my birthday, I am giving myself a present. I've decided not to respond to you, ttr, et al any more. I know it won't stop you from stalking the political threads, looking for any opening to attack whatever I say. Because that is obviously the way you think you can best support Kerry, I guess. Though I'm really beginning to wonder if it isn't just that you enjoy being annoying. I'm glad I don't actually ever have to sit in a room with you, because if you take the politics out of the equation here, it's pretty hard to defend your obnoxious behavior towards me. Apparently, I at one time made you feel as if your penis was too small, or something, because your obsession with me is starting to look a lot like Big Mick's stalking of me.

But you go for it, dude. Whatever floats yer boat and rings yer chimes. But I'm not responding anymore, because I know the lower Kerry sinks in the polls and closer we get to the elections, the more desperate people like you get. I don't like holding conversations with scary people like you, so I'm just going to leave you be.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:27 PM

1) Someone to put together an improved international coalition to deal with Iraq, Iran, N. Korea, Sudan. The UN isn't exactly a bastion of morality or effectiveness, but we have to make it better, and we have alternatives. Clinton made excellent use of NATO in Yugoslavia.

2) Someone to fix the tremendous unbalance in US economy by a spendthrift President and Republican dominated Congress that things we have nothing but money to throw at outmoded and useless big defense projects.

3) A less dogmatic choice for the next set of Supreme Court justices.

4) A more positive and informed approach to scientific research, government sponsorship, and what science is all about.

5) A more hands-off approach to a woman's right to choose. Greater government sponsorship for world-wide family planning.

6) Government officials with better senses of (intentional) humor and a bit more self deprecation.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Thomas the Rhymer - PM
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

Bush = Violence = Porn = WASPMale sado worship = Ad Hominem avoidance

.............metaphorically speaking, of course...

Vote for Kerry, and things will finally start to get better. Kerry's only problem here is that he isn't stimulated by 'low ball' entendre, and the neo-cons can't stop kicking the sand around the sandbox long enough to let anyone start thinking straight again.

Guest is 'acting like' a neo-con... again...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:29 PM

There will have to be a great deal of work to put this country back together.
Alliances that have been breached will have to be restored. A legitimate time-table for bringing American troops home will have to be established.
The World Court and the UN will have to be restored to a level of respect and authority undone by Bush. The Republican congress will have to be challenged and the veto power of the pen in the Exec. Branch will be active.
Care will have to be taken so that the Right-wing cabal that got Clinton will not be able to bring Kerry down. Health Care and Education will have to be legitimately addressed and at least the Repubs in congress checked in their willful quest to destroy Social Security, Head Start and other useful government programs. Taxes will have to be faced realistically, not ideologically, and many of the cuts will have to be eliminated if we are as a country to maintain a fairly high standard of living for all of it's citizens.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:02 PM

Anyone who believes Nader's 2000 contention that there's no difference between the Rebpublicans and Democrats has only to look back over the last 3 1/2 years to see the error of that statement.

Had Al Gore been installed (rightly) as the 43rd President, do you really think his administration would have:
a. appointed theocratically-oriented right-wing extremist Federal judges at every opportunity?
b. gutted the Clean Air Act and virtually all other environmental protection laws
c. appointed an Attorney General with as little regard for the Bill Of Rights as John Ashcroft
d. pre-emptively invaded Iraq without a strong international coalition, without clear and compelling reason to do so or an invitation from the Iraqi citizenry
e. been hell-bent on "privatizing" everything from Social Security to the educational system
f. awarded no-bid contracts to Halliburton for work in Iraq without accountability for the funds
g. attempted to distract the voting public from economic, security, and social justice issues by backing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage
h. disregarded or marginalized what the the commissions and agencies under the Clinton administration had learned and had to say about international terrorism (e.g., the Hart-Rudman commission)
i. pushed to permanently do away with the inheritance tax, no matter how huge the estate
j. proposed tax cuts that primarily benefit the extremely wealthy at the expense of the middle class and the poor
or
k. squandered a huge surplus and run up an unprecedented deficit?

No, centrist Democrats and centrist Republicans are not that far apart on most issues. But the Bush administration is not truly conservative, much less centrist; they are not strict constructionists of the Constitution, nor are they fiscally conservative. And on some issues, Kerry is definitely to the left of even the moderate Republicans.

Those who argue that the pendulum must swing even further to the "right" before truly leftist ideas (like those of Nader) will have a chance to take hold do not realize how much may be irretrievably lost before that happens, if we to go all Hegelian at this point instead of opting for the "lesser of two evils" -- which, IMO, is A LOT LESS evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:35 PM

"Kerry is definitely to the left of even the moderate Republicans."

And that is how I spell R-E-L-I-E-F I'll tell you.

"Those who argue that the pendulum must swing even further to the "right" before truly leftist ideas (like those of Nader) will have a chance to take hold do not realize how much may be irretrievably lost before that happens.."

It isn't about just that. It is about sticking by the principles one espouses, instead of just paying lip service to them every four years, while we vote for the lesser of two evils that are destroying the American standard of living, grossly abusing our power in relation to the rest of the world, carrying on an illegal and immoral war in our names.

How do you square all that with voting for Kerry, especially in light of Abu Ghraib, the decimation of Iraqi civilians and their cities to "destroy the enemy", Genie? John Kerry is going to continue this war. He has no exit strategy, anymore than the Bush administration does. Both camps are hellbent on pursuing this "bomb the Iraqis back to the stone age" policy.

Maybe you are willing to vote for a candidate who is supporting that policy, but I'm not. I refuse to vote for a pro-Iraq war candidate. I refuse to vote for a pro-Patriot Act candidate. I refuse to vote for a pro-free trader candidate. I refuse to vote for a candidate which views international human rights with such contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:24 PM

Aspersions on the size of my penis? A new low for GUEST. Ah well, projection, as Freud would point out, can lead to some powerful misconceptions.

I also notice that you broke your own disingenuous little birthday vow in the same post in which you made it. That must be some kind of record, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST,other guest
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM

Let's see who is obnoxious:

GUEST: No, it's easy to cover your eyes and your ears and vote for Kerry. Just like it was easy for Germans to vote for Hitler.

GUEST: You are phonies and hypocrites

GUEST: If you had even an ounce of creative, positive imagination...

GUEST: You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate.

GUEST: Apparently, I at one time made you feel as if your penis was too small.

and my favorite

GUEST: It's pretty hard to defend your obnoxious behavior towards me.

Ha, ha, that's a goodun GUEST. You keep spewing your frothy bile on everyone and then acuse ttr and nurd of being obnoxious. I'm glad you decided to clam up. You're so full of crap your eyeballs stink.

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:15 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Defeat Bush and then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:18 AM

Why stop there? Here are GUEST's greatest hits, his rabid ravings and obnoxious accusations from this thread alone...

driven by fear and hatred…[using] the tactic of the moronic Republican militarists…to brainwash the American public…don't have a clue as to how the US government actually works…racist bit of crap…that is just silly ...You are just making such ridiculous claims to assuage your guilty conscience for selling your soul out …Throw your principles and values out the window every four years, just so you can make a politically expedient, socially acceptable easy vote…Just like it was easy for Germans to vote for Hitler…People as…blind and lazy as you…your pathetic claims…duplicitous, hypocritical mindset … easy sleazy…hypocrites…I refuse to remain silent about your phoniness and hypocrisy…you are phonies and hypocrites…naked emperor's most loyal sycophant …pathetic attempts …your lack internal consistency in your thinking…there is a deep disconnect in your personalities…rationalizers and justifiers…If you had even an ounce of creative, positive imagination…You are cynical, jaded, worn down, and resigned to accept whatever shit the Democratic party heaps onto your plate…over the top hysterical claim…acting like you've had a lobotomy…childish…stupid and gullible…shut your donkey braying trap up…stop you from stalking…I'm glad I don't actually ever have to sit in a room with you…I at one time made you feel as if your penis was too small…desperate people like you… scary people like you… I don't like holding conversations…

So there!