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BS: The largest class society in the world
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Chief Chaos Date: 09 Feb 04 - 11:12 PM Satchell, I agree that college isn't right for everyone. However, many years ago, before I joined the military, I tried to find jobs which I could learn as I went. Unfortunately to be a mechanic, plumber, electrician or anything that payed decently you had to have four years of experience and own your own tools. No-one that I called could explain how I was supposed to get four years of experience and money enough to buy said tools if no-one would hire me. I do know plenty of people who were hired just on the basis of having a diploma. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: dianavan Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:58 AM Actually Martin, my children have two rich daddies and a step-daddy. I have lots of boyfriends. Many I have known for 20-30 years. Isn't the point of this discussion the caste system in America? Haven't you proved it exactly? Of course you think a caste system is perfectly O.K. Most nepotists do. I would never suggest you "cut your children off." The point is that there are some that have parents that can afford to send them to school and for the others it is hard work at minimum wage, long hours of study and numerous financial hardships. The strength of our nation lies in meaningful employment. As the chief pointed out: for some it means "joining the military" (it might mean risking your life), for some it means a huge debt load upon graduation, for others it means showing up for class. The alternatives are pretty grim. Honestly Martin, do you really think people are perfectly content to pick fruit for the rest of their lives? Do you really think people are content with worrying about how to pay the rent and how to put groceries on the table? Are you afraid of poverty Martin? Do you think it might rub off? It isn't a disease, you know. Do you know what fair means, Martin? Impossible perhaps but worth striving for, I'd say. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: SueB Date: 10 Feb 04 - 02:38 AM DING! Ladies and Gentlemen, the bell has sounded the end of the third round (or was it the fourth?) - and the fighters have returned to their corners, so let me take this moment to remind you of the Rules of the Bout: This fight is scheduled to go twelve rounds, a fighter may not be saved by the bell, and in the event of an accidental headbut before the fourth round the fight will be declared a draw, after the fourth round the judges will go to the scorecards to determine the winner. As you should have been informed by the referee before the match, points WILL be deducted for low blows and intentional headbutting, after the second point deduction the fighter WILL be disqualified. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM I see no reason why young people feel obliged, at age sixteen or seventeen to go right into college. Many could work for several years and try to save some of the cost of University. Also, we need to keep in mind that the benefits of a University education really ought to be paid for by those who reap the benefit. Oh, I know that society as a whole does benefit. However, individuals also do quite well as a result of being well educated. I guess I am just a little tired of those who want the public to pay for personal choices. Getting an education is hard work and we all need to understand that Public Funds are finite. At what point do we tell people that public benevolence is not up to making a lawyer, doctor or engineer of you...that is your job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:36 AM Educate. agitate and organise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM Educate whom ? Agitate why? Organize What? I hate slogans, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST,satchel Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:49 AM I guess that part of my point is that lamenting the "classed society" we live in makes the condescending assumption that anything but the top "class" is somehow bad. Class is how societies have been organized, even in the so-called communist world, for most of human history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:53 AM Still don't see the point of airing one's good fortune as if it proved some point about society. That's a good point about getting experience for jobs that require it. Even with a degree in art, I had a hard time getting a job in museum art shipping as a driver, and had to go to one of those truck driving schools. Had to watch a safety film about falling asleep, which pointed out that sleep was an issue in American society going back to Nathaniel Hawthorne's story of Rip Van Winkle--I couldn't stand it anymore and announced that Hawthorne didn't write Rip Van Winkle goddamnit Washington Effing Irving did. An awkward silence ensued. I don't necesarily want the public to pay for college or personal choices. But I wouldn't mind if some CEO's paid also for some of their personal choices. If we had a maximum wage we probably wouldn't need a minimum. The public pays for a lot of things that nobody whines about endlessly, things they should at least reckon in balance. People complain about assistance to the poor but not so much to the wealthy. The national flood insurance that goes to rebuild ritzy hotels on beachfronts where nobody would build in the first place if it wasn't for the handout of national flood insurance is huge compared to the spare change people whine about because it goes to the poor. It doesn't add up, people just begrudge help to the poor and not to the wealthy and that's the way it is, for cultural reasons of complacent stupidity. People hate and fear the bum who might get ahead of them, and kiss the butt of the bum who already has. If it weren't for the fear and hatred people would probably see good and bad, here and there, just a bit more fairly. I don't hate the rich, but I can see they aren't quite that much better than anyone else, and you can see it in the mistakes they make in executing their responsibilities. The proportion gets out of hand, with childish celeb worship. Impressionable people are impressed. Thoughtless people think it's how things are and always will be, but no, it isn't. Many things get better just because little bits of sense and decency start to add up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: jimmyt Date: 10 Feb 04 - 11:42 AM I have been trying to formulate a comment to this thread, but it has taken on a tone of flaming that is not relevant to the original comments regarding whether or not education should be free. I have just finished Fred Miller's comments and I have to say that I think it was very well thought out, and I cannot find fault with it. I agree that I personally get annoyed when I hear of some well meaning program that has gone terribly wrong with the corruption that seems inate with humans, and I bitch and moan and gripe about my damn tax dollars that have been thrown away for something worthless. I also have encountered many many times people who are working in government agencies with huge attitude problems that I cannot help but believe are related to the fact that they are in a government position and by god they don't have to smile or be pleasent. I do believe what Fred says , that we all seem to turn a deaf ear to the horrible injustices that are evident in society, ie the flood insurance, the terrible misappropriation of funds by corporate ceos, padding their golden parachute contracts before declaring bankruptcy and not giving a damn about the thousands of employees that are now out of work through no fault of thier own. I do, however, still think that providing a college education should be at least a partnership between the institution, the student and some means of providing grants and low interest loans. I cannot see how we could provide a free education to everyone with government funds without passing this onn to the taxpayer, thus, IT AIN"T FREE! I paid for my education myself. I borrowed money, worked multiple jobs, my wife worked (we had three children at the time and yes it was hard as hell but we did it, and never once thought someone should pay for this for us) I think people tend to appreciate things more if they have to work for them. Having said this, I still believe that in the present situation, the cost has risen so high and the possibility of earning a portion of this is getting farther and farther apart. Perhaps does anyone agree that either extreme is bad and a middle ground is the best solution? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Raedwulf Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:51 PM Responding only to the original post, & ignoring what seems to be mostly troll-inspired bickering since... The flip side of Donuel-DonH's point is this - more kids than ever before are qualified to go to 'college' (I'm UK, BTW, not US, so I don't understand the finer distinctions of the US heddicashun sistum). So did they lower the entry requirements for college, or did pre-college education get BETTER?! Serious point, folks. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that if you educate Joe Average better, he expects more, but there is still only so much money to go round. I also know that humanity is very good at focusing on the negatives. "Our education system is shit - so many people are being deprived of the opportunity to go to college""Our education system has improved by leaps & bounds - so many more people now achieve the entry requirements for college" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Raedwulf Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM Drat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Raedwulf Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:55 PM Despite double checking I still managed to screw up the HTML! :o If one of the Clones would care to tidy me up & toss the extraneous bits in the bin, everyone else can have a good laugh at at my expsense. My excuse is that it 2AM over here! I die from embarassment (Naaaaaaaaaaaah! ;) ). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: dianavan Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:58 PM Yes, I do agree that individuals should be responsible for paying at least a part of their education. It is now becoming impossible for a great many to do just that. Re: low paying jobs versus high paying jobs. As an average citizen, who do you think should be paid more: The doctor or the garbage man? They are both responsible for health. Why should there be such a large difference in their pay and their status? Thanks, Fred, for your sanity. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:12 AM Well goddamn. This must really be some of my better crap (I just said it was to needle Martin a little.)I was just hoping not to get on your bad side Dianavan--it makes me blush to be considered sane, I don't get that a lot. Jimmyt, I haven't talked to you much since that little party in cyberspace with Little Hawk. We met poorly, but it was all right. I'm glad to share any common ground with you, and posted my pictures just on your account. Yeah, I'm an old fashioned liberal, but being brought up that way naturally makes one want to think a little the other direction. I'm still trying to get the big picture, and I really enjoy talking to people with different views. Except when they throw out a bumper-sticker and walk off. But then sometimes one has to joke around a bit to get warmed up, I guess. It's hard to hit just the right degree of rudeness to be fun and stir people up--but I'm glad that people do it, because people come out a little more, and it's good to have a place to lose your temper with people, isn't it? God, it's like that rush when you quit a job. It must be hard to be a conservative on a folk music forum. If you really knew all the people it would probably be different. I guess my bumper sticker for this thread is lately I feel pretty lucky, and I'd like to think that the few little half-decent things one can do will add up, like raindrops making a flood. No--better scratch that one. Um, I'll have to get back to it. My Dad went to Berea, here in Ky, where everyone works to go to college. He grew up about 15 miles from Black Mountain, the other experimental college, but it wasn't interested in the locals,or the community, and it's long gone. I think Billy Graham owns it now. My wife and I wanted to go to Berea, and looked into it, but we had a little too much money from our parents. I guess we were disadvantaged, in a way. I should admit I didn't have to work in college--it was all my parents wanted for us. Well, and that we'd be writers (no luck there). I was a High-school drop-out, I did have a 3.89 college average, but without much else to worry about, which is huge. I have never had a job since college that didn't involve some heavy lifting. I like doing it, but I'm getting old. I have a marriage that is a partnership, and I'm lucky to, because I'd most likely be dead by now without it. My wife has no idea what a good person she is and I don't want her to find out. That's my deal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST,Buffy the Hamster slayer Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:49 AM What if................. Hamsters were 8foot tall? Oh, sorry, wrong thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Feb 04 - 01:33 PM As an average citizen, who do you think should be paid more: The doctor or the garbage man? (dianavan) What do you mean by 'more'? More than now? I'd say the garbage man and not the doctor (at least in our country) More than the other? Surely the doctor and not the garbage man. If you pay more for jobs for which nearly everybody is qualified than for jobs for which only a few are qualified, you'll get a complete chaos. We had a society close to us in which the payment was in no meaningful way related to the qualification. It went backrupt. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: jimmyt Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:09 PM dianavan, I would wonder if you would prefer your heart surgery to be performed by a highly paid cardiac surgeon or one who was paid the same as the garbage man? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: jimmyt Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:47 PM Let me explain my last comment so it doesn't sound rude. It seems that when people plug in a real life scenario to a situation, it frequently changes their perspective on things. I am suggesting that in order to insure that we have the very best qualified people performing such things as thoracic surgery, managing a complex multiple system medical crisis, etc. it is important that the rewards for this type of work (monitary) be high enough so that the right folks get attracted to even aspire to become specialists in teses type medical areas. I know if I need disc surgery (which I recently underwent,) I take comfort in knowing that the surgeon has been chosen from a fairly large pool of folks who for whatever reason didn't make the cut to become a neurosurgeon. I would not take comfort in knowing that my cutter didn't get in to garbage man training school and has decided to take a go at becoming a surgeon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Chief Chaos Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:12 PM JimmyT - I know alot of people who were unable to become doctors because the cost of medical school was beyond their abilities to work for or for their parents to pay for or both. Funny thing is, we have more plastic surgeons in this country than we do heart surgeons. Who's getting all this plastic work done? The people that can afford it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: jimmyt Date: 11 Feb 04 - 08:06 PM CHief Chaos, you are correct that there is a big demand for plastic surgery. It is market driven, and apparently people would rather look good than feel good in AMerica (I suspect other places as well) but unfortunately that is the world in which we live. Back to the other comment you made, I still have a hard time buying in to the concept that some people cannot become doctors because of finances, because it is in fact quite a bit more expensive to go to dental school than medical school, and I did it, with no parental support, no benefactor, three children and a working wife and lots of student loans. By the way, the student loans I borrowed were not at the 5 or 6 percent that the students can now borrow, but during the late 70s and early 80s rates were so high that I was paying up to 19.33 percent on the last $10,000 I paid. I borrowed a total of $78000.00, and the final payoff was arounf $250,000 by the time I paid it off 10 years later. I am willing to listen to anyone's ideas about why things are bad, or why someone cannot achieve, or whatever and make an honest attempt to understand the logic, but facts are facts, I actually have walked the walk. It can be done and it is done every day by folks who do not accept the barriers, but focus on thier goals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Chief Chaos Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:59 PM JimmyT - I congratulate you on your accomplishment but I don't see how it does anything but prove my point. Not many people want to start out a new life approx. $250,000.00. As a matter of fact I haven't owed that much through the accumulated debt of my entire life. Three children and a working wife? Not a debt that I'd want to take on for anything under those circumstances. And actually, we were talking about single persons having to work their way through college. Most people try to go to college right after graduating high school when they are least likely to have a decent job, or have a spouse with a decent paying job (I hope it was a decent amount and that neither you, her or your children had to sacrifice too much, and being in the military myself I hope that you know I am very sincere in that). I am not talking about a free ride here, I think that working your way through college is a good idea. However I had a few run ins trying to keep myself out of debt and go to college at the same time. The professors would every so often assign too much work to accomplish while working the max hours possible to make the max $$$ possible. I believe that college tuition is getting outrageous. I'm also pretty firm on the idea that you either need family connections or a degree to get a really decent job (at least right off the bat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: jimmyt Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:30 PM Chief Chaos, I cannot but agree with you that tuition is absolutely outragious and I would hope to see steps taken to help get this in control. I do what I can by supporting scholarship funds at three different colleges with hopes that someone out there who really needs a break for a few hundred dollars or a couple thousand to help them through a rough quarter has an opportunity to get some free money. I never thought about the debt service I was taking on, only on the goal I had set. We did receive medicaid and food stamps during this time as my wife had a job that paid only a bit more than minimum wage. Had I failed and never graduated, I am sure I would have had to spend the rest of my life paying my way out of it. I am not bragging here, I feel that lots of things lined up correctly for me to enable me to accomplish my dreams, but I guess the point I am trying to make is that if you don't try, you are destined to not succeed. I find it better to have dreams and goals and plans than to be told and made to feel that there is no hope. I am truly a very fortunate man. I thank God every day for allowing me the opportunity to succeed, but in the final analysis, I had to help make my dreams come true by actions. I have a young lady that worked for me for 12 years, had a family of three children and a husband who is a fireman. She attended night school in addition to working full time for me until she got her core requirements to apply to Dental Hygiene College. Last year, she also was diagnosed with breast cancer and had to undergo chemotherapy and a mastectomy. She continued to work throughout this time and only took one semester off school. She was accepted in to the program in September and I am happy to say that she is nearly halfway through the program and will graduate with honors in April 2005. She will them move from a job making $14 per hour to one where she will probably start at about $35 per hour. She never lost sight of her goal, and because of this and nothing else, she will succeed. Does this always happen? No it certainly doesn't. Is part of the reason the high cost of education? Yes I will grant you that. Is part of the cause the deplorable low wages available to students? Yes I will also grant you that. Can you agree that the lack of success can also be attributed to not setting goals? to Not attending class? to generally not being willing to make the effort? I have to say yes to that also, because I was a student like that until I wised up and got my life plan in order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: dianavan Date: 12 Feb 04 - 12:25 AM Chief Chaos and Jimmyt: You are both right! I too, was one of those who succeeded despite the odds. Its not impossible to get a degree without parental support but it means a huge debt load and long hours of minimum wage work while studying. The point is that there is an ever widening gap between the rich and the poor. Even with that degree in hand, the jobs usually go to family and friends (nepotism), not necessarily the most competent. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: jimmyt Date: 12 Feb 04 - 09:03 AM dianavan, I couldn't agree more with you on that one. I had been working as a supervisor in a steel mill in the mid seventies, and had a creew of 35 men working for me. Well, the mill closed and moved south to a cheaper work force, and since I was unemployed I decided to go back and finish my degree, at that time, in music. I was working part time for a dentists doing maintainence, yard work, etc and he also had a high school kid who worked sort of under my guidance. ONe day his daughter, a bratty little nineteen year old kid who had never worked for anything in her life came by the ofice and saw this and said to me, "I bet it is kind of fun playing the boss to that boy, isn't it?" I could have rung her neck. I still have a hard time identifying with people who have never had to work for their money. That includes all the little spoiled rich kids as well as the ones who have figured how to ride the system and get stuff for nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:10 PM People who don't work don't know what they're missing. But it's amazing how many ways we can find to mess up and aggravate the satisfaction of a good sensible job. I've done heavy lifting for fifteen years and never missed a day for an injury, but every kid in pseudo-management thinks they should tell me how to do it. Can't these people shut up? Can't we just respect a job for what it is? What is it in us that makes us smug and nasty? I try to make sure my kids notice anybody doing a good job. My daughter remembers the sales clerk at radio shack (good), and the crew of bone-heads at Home Depot (it was a happier simpler time, before we ever went in there). As a troubled kid going into college I didn't have the courage in myself to pursue anything with particularly heavy responsibilities. I think a doctor should be paid more than a garbage man because it's a whale of a job, even if the qualifications were lessened, which they often probably could be, for many basic things. In education we're increasingly trying to codify trust in people to do things we don't understand ourselves, and can't do for ourselves. It's expensive in other ways too, when we can't trust anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: dianavan Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:00 AM As an average citizen, who do you think should be paid more: The doctor or the garbage man? There really is no right or wrong answer to this question. It depends on your perspective. Personally, I'm not convinced that the surgeon may be anything more than a spoiled, rich kid who cheated on his exams, schmoozed with the old boys and was set-up by his daddy. I don't think it is necessarily because he deserves more money or status. Some doctors are worth their weight in gold, others are narrow minded and misinformed. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 13 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM Well, I had to see 5 doctors over two years to reach the obvious conclusion. The first four weren't very interested in diagnosis, just wanted to sell me whatever the daily special was.) One Doctor gave me a coupon with a mail-in rebate. Every member of my immediate family has been slated for an unnecesary surgery, some twice. Here, have a complete mastectomy, a hysterectomy, let's put a steel rod in your ankle, whatever. Bernard Shaw pointed out a while ago that the same system that gives a baker an interest in baking good bread for you gives a doctor an interest in cutting off your leg. It's just like looking for that one person at a company who's keeping up with anything. You remember their name and always ask for them. Then one day you call, and they've left. Good for them, you wish them well. You can't do that forever. Does anybody tip garbagemen? I never have, but was told that most of them refuse promotion because of their routes, and tips. Surprised me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 13 Feb 04 - 02:33 PM dianavan, you obviously have a hard on for people who work hard and make more than you do. Have you considered seeing a shrink? Worse yet, how can you go through life with such a chip on your shoulder for people who work in corporations and maybe catch a break in life. All of your whining here about people who pick fruit for a living and are suffering so terribly is really getting nothing accomplished. No one is forcing them to do it. Maybe you will catch a break one day, but I don't think you are hanging around with the right people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 13 Feb 04 - 04:44 PM Quite wrong Martin. Some people who pick fruit in this country are, yes, actually being forced to do it, in the precise sense of slavery, and the corporations who use them employ a middle-man so as to deny involvement or any responsibility. Although they do profit from it. So you're misinformed on that. It's been in the news a lot. Guess you missed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST Date: 13 Feb 04 - 06:00 PM Surgeons...spoilt rich kids, who cheat on their exams and are set up by their fathers?????????????????? I supose the seven years minimum hard slog and common 60 plus hour working weeks whilst in training, before they choose their specialism is easy peasy lemon squeezy? I think they may get caught out somewhere along the line, were they freeloaders as is being suggested. There are always bad apples, but I think that surgeons probably have far fewer in their midst than the above comment warrants. When the bin men are on strike , we do cope, albeit smellily. The same would not be the case if the surgeons downed scalpels.It is within our capability to get some of the refuse to a local dump ourselves, if need be. I would not want to perform brain surgery. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: GUEST,. Date: 13 Feb 04 - 07:09 PM Speaking of debt load, I had $300 left to pay on my student loan but when I moved out of NY state we both lost track of one another. NYSSMA the generous state educational loan people then parlayed that $300 by selling it from bank to bank until now - when they claim with interest and fees I owe $40,038.14 on that $300. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: jimmyt Date: 13 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM guest, so now you know the miracle of compound interest! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 14 Feb 04 - 12:48 AM My point about garbage men and doctors--actually I don't think I originated the comparison to doctors but was thinking of some other professions, I think I said interior designers, who I happen to like to poke fun at. The larger point is lost in quibbling and over-the-top remarks. The larger point is simply reasonable proportions are not reached by market forces alone, unless people take things at least a little bit seriously, and try to make the decent choices they can. Not just one or a few decent choices that you wear like a damned halo, and act smug about, but just a bit of civilized concern--that helps, I think. It's not their fault, or their fault, it's the conglomeration of our own little daily faults, fed into the machine of the economy. I'm afraid people will think I posted as Martin, just to contradict him. Why mention fruit pickers at all if you really don't know about the slave trade in it? It's hard to believe. But what's the point in debating the question, whether this stuff is real or not? If it is, Martin, you must have your head so far up your butt than one can only hope it will pop out on top again of it's own volition, someday. Nobody can help you with it--there's no point in blue-clicky articles or throwing the facts at you if you don't quite give a rat's ass, anyway. Look into things for yourself. Even if a good row with someone makes you feel more certain, you aren't, and don't actually know any more than you did, just because you attacked someone else. I think your crude manner betrays your neediness and doubt (I try to let my neediness and doubt speak for themselves) If you are for real, it's hard for me to picture, since everyone I know personally is less bitchy and cartoony. Especially the ones who enjoy life so hotdamndadgonedingdang much. It doesn't sound very much like you do. Sounds like something's gnawing at you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 16 Feb 04 - 01:28 AM Well I've already killed this thread so I might as well rattle on. I'm writing a thing that involves class in the u.s., a comedic thing, and I don't get tired of the subject. Guest, people do get by without garbageworkers for awhile, but they also got by without decent brain surgeons for most of recorded history. We've learned to torture ourselves with all sorts of hopes, and to feel it's our fault or somebody else's if someone dies when we don't want them to. Nice. People will live and die, one way or another. I don't mean to diss the moral courage and skill of good doctors in the least, but the thing that fascinates me is how unimaginable possibilities turn into paramount necessities as soon as they are considered remotely possible. How quickly we take things for granted, or oughto-be-granted, as soon as we hear of them. The music-recording possibilities I have on this computer--to think of that, back in the 70's! Now that I have it, it just seems like such a hassle--why doesn't it come with a talented dude to deal with it for you? Who can also cook? Actually, a woman would be better, a real cute one. etc. On the one hand I side with the point that people who have particular values, and have focused on them, and achieved, are very much to be commended. But I also feel that they are a bit fortunate already, and that the idea, here, is that those people give back what they can. Every focused thing you can do is a little bit funny when compared to everything else you could do, or could've done, instead. Our ends are limited. No new car is quite as good as the feeling of having someplace you want to go. If you have that, you'll drive anything that will get you there. Except for the extremes of thoughtless abuse, and the awful damages of it, "class" is really kind of funny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: dianavan Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM Fred: The "need" for services and goods you mentioned brought to mind a true story. When I lived on an island of 300 people (no electricity, city water or car ferry) we had no doctor for the first five years we were there. As a result, people focussed on preventative medicine, diet, herbs etc. We also gave birth at home, helping each other. There was no problem we couldn't deal with. Finally, a doctor came to live amongst us. He even built a cute little clinic that was open two or three days a week. Well, all of a sudden everyone needed a doctor. His clinic was full every day it was open. It was if the entire community forgot that we once took care of each other. Go figure... d |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Sam L Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:11 AM yes, dianavan, that's the kind of thing I was trying to talk about. It's my favorite subject, I think, but there isn't a word specifically for it. The closest thing I've found is Risk Homeostasis. Which is just the tendency of bad things happening at about the same rate despite our advances against them. If you design a ladder that people can lean out farther on, they will, immediately, and they'll get hurt about as often as without it. But it's still not exactly what I'm thinking of. Class is a lot like those people who hurry to pass you on the interstate, then they slow down. As if they can only feel their progress in relation to somebody else, regardless of how fast they go, or wherever the hell they're going. It's a kind of social idiocy. Most social things are one sort of social idiocy or another, my favorite is the tendency of dumbass people to want to be in everybody else's way. Once you start watching it, you can't stop. It's amazing. Better than any so-called "reality" t.v. Education is similar, because if what people really lusted for was education, there is a public library, where the greatest luxuries of the world are free, at least for those who did learn to read passably, and can get better with practice. But we want help, and a stamp of higher approval on top of what we could do for ourselves. It's fun to stamp things, and cool to achieve badges, any kid knows that. * I was a royal butt-head today. At an art museum I was telling my kids and their friends that these Yoruba "doors" weren't really doors but just 3 decorative panels, (which is the best scholarship I know of) when some guy leading a tour group suddenly told us Yes they were doors. I asked how a three-part door without any hinges worked. He said Don't ask me and I said I don't really think I did. Why do I need to be so rude to this Joe Art? Why do I enjoy how even the stupidest rudeness of other people draws other, more interesting people out? The good reason is probably that interesting people are too reticent by nature, the bad news is probably that I'm just messed-up in my head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Metchosin Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:23 AM Re education Fred Miller, I couldn't agree more, its The Glass Bead Game (Magister Ludi). Not very many people get it and jump in the lake and swim away, its a hard pattern to refuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world From: Daithi Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:27 AM Ah Martin - great fun! However forget this pointless trivia regarding so called education. What REALLY matters is that you are factually incorrect regarding your comments about hirsute British women. I have spent over 30 years conducting an in depth (sic) survey and of the many with whom I have shared a bed, not one has neglected to shave legs and armpits. Obsessively, in some cases. Or were you simply referring specifically to those 9few) British women who do noit shave, implying that you would be quite happy to co-habit with the rest of them? Or maybe you are getting them confused with all those hairy latina women on the continent of Europe? Would such a confusion reflect on the American college education system do you think - or am I just being an offensive, small minded, smug bastard? Like your good self, for example. |
