Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?

Subject: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:12 PM

I am in the process of learning Jimmy Rodgers' song "Peach Picking Time in Georgia", and will perform it this Friday. (Yeah, Scottish accent and all).

Anyway, my question is, will a (liberal) American audience be offended by hearing the word "piccaninnies " in the first line of the last verse ?

"When the piccaninnies pick the cotton, I'll pick a wedding ring"

My gut feeling is that I should change it to "cotton-pickers". But I have been wrong before ...........

Murray

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM

probably.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM

I suspect many people will be offended by the term "pickaninny." I believe it is generally considered to be in the same realm as the N-word. Accordingly, I would recommend the change.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: guinnesschik
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:18 PM

Go with your gut feeling...I do believe Willie Nelson says "cotton-pickers" too.

Great song; enjoy it!

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:20 PM

Oh no Murray, it'll be fine as long as you also throw in a few "jungle bunnies" and "spearchuckers" here and there............and providing of course that you're playing for a Klan rally...................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:21 PM

If it's good enough for Willie, it's good enough for me. (Except when it comes to guitar maintenance .......)

Murray

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:22 PM

BTW - Murray - do you have the dots? If you do, can you scan and e-mail them to me? It's one of the "missing tunes" and the DT has several parodies set to it as well.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:25 PM

MMario, I think I've got the tadpoles somewhere, I'll take a look.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:27 PM

Spaw, you must remember that I do not have a built-in, congenital, inherited, instinctive or whatever, filter for these niceties. That is why I ask people who do know. And I did say "liberal" audience, which would rule out the KKK. Oe does "liberal" mean something else that I should know about?

Murray

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 04:29 PM

I don't have the dots, Mmario, but I can do the chords if you need them. Maybe bert will help on both.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:32 PM

"Piccaninnies" is definitely verboten. "Papooses", however, still seems to be acceptable in most quarters at this point, oddly enough...perhaps because it stems from (or is) an actual Native American word...like "wigwam", and a host of others.

I have always wondered if other groups of people than we caucasians have come up with cute names for our babies? I know that Asians sometimes have referred to us (in their languages) as "round-eyes". Is that pejorative? Not to me. Apaches referred to us as "white-eyes". The Lakota referred to us as "wasichus", which essentially meant much the same thing. I figure there's a nice way and a nasty way to say it, but you can't pick that up so easily off the printed page.

Anyway, better not sing "piccaninnies", mate!

- LH

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 05:46 PM

When Willie Nelson sang "Peach Pickin' Time in Georgia" for the Jimmie Rodgers tribute album, we changed the line to "when the pickers have picked the cotton."

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:45 PM

I know Murray.....I was just making a poor joke at your expense, but I appreciate the problem. something to consider is talking to your audience a bit and explaining what you're doing. Songs reflect their times and times have changed, but it shouldn't hurt anyone to know that "the truth is 'A' and hopefully we have grown and we now will sing 'B'".....but if songs are also history, then talk about the truth of what was. Sure its not acceptable today, but revisionist history is equally unacceptable.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 06:57 PM

My dictionary says it's probably from a spanish woerd "pequeno", meaning a small child.

When I was growing up and where I was growing up, it was a word that might be used for any toddler. It's a pretty word, pity it's been twisted and used as a vehicle for racists, but that's how it goes. Maybe if white people started using it for their own children it could get rehabilitated.

But better stick with the Willie Nelson version. (Which actually makes for better word play, fortunately.)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:14 PM

In this country, meaning the U.S., Murray the term is considered highly offensive. I expect that a liberal audience would tend to rake you over the coals. I run in to this at re-enactment (I am an American Civil War re-enactor) You might get by if you explain the historical context. Unfortunately, people in this country want to toss historical accuracy out the window in the name of political correctness. Do what thou will but be prepared for the reaction. Not everyone is intelligent enough to know the difference between historical context and racism. Good luck. Kindest reguards, NEil

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 08:39 PM

I am glad to have my instincts confirmed. I just think it is a really good song, with a really neat fingerpicking guitar accompaniment. I hate it when good songs become unacceptable because of an unfortunate choice of terminology, but I see no harm in creative editing . Pity we couldn't do the same thing with whaling songs, but IMHO they are beyond redemption ...............

Murray

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Deni
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:28 AM

I remember telling my son I had a doll called a piccanninny, when I was a child. He was shocked as only a teenager could be about his mother's filthy language. I bow to his superior knowledge and the term will never pass my lips again, but I loved that doll and it is a nice word...and in the right hands /voice wouldn't be offensive at all.

I agree with McGrath of Harlow...

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Sourdough
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:17 AM

Origin of pickaninny?

McGrath of Harlow's dictionary confirms my memory. In the Creole languauge of Suriname (with the imaginative name of Taki-Taki) "piquine" means small and Nino (pronounced "Ninyo" is a small child (I don't recall that there is a female form) so the phrase "piqine ninos" is heard quite frequently on the streets of Paramaribo. It is likely that piquine nino is a common Creole phrase throughout the Caribean.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 03:12 AM

Wonder if it's related to "picayune".

Language is a trap. I came across two black children wandering around a shop in America looking worried, and said (as I would in Ireland) "Have you lost your mammy, loves?" They glared at me and stormed off.

It was only later that I discovered that "mammy", a perfectly ordinary and friendly word for one's mother in Ireland, has racist connotations in America.

I still occasionally forget and use it to Americans, but I try not to.

If the word's going to hurt people and remind them of bad times, I'd steer clear of it. When *they* want to revive the word and rehabilitate it, that's time to start using it.

We call children sprogs and snappers in Ireland. And don't you call them kids in America?

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 04:04 AM

I wouldn't use it myself - for the same reason as I have changed the n-word in some shanties I do. Still puzzles me though - why these terms for any ethnic group apart from white anglo-saxon are frowned upon. It seems to be perfectly acceptable for black comedians to use the terms honky, spook etc. in a derogatory fasion but sing piccaninnie in an innocent historic context and the liberals will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Don't get me wrong - I am not blaming the ethnic groups themselves. It is the stupidity of some of the people who make the laws that is in question. I know black, asian, chinese and many other people who are as annoyed as me at political correctness gone wrong. I wonder at times if it is the racist faction who dream up these 'rules' to get non-racists that annoyed that they will sympathise with them. Perhaps I am getting too cynical in my old age:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 04:28 AM

Whaling songs non-pc? Sheesh... what is the world coming to?

As much as I do support the history vs. entertainment angle, if we throw out whaling songs and shanties used on whalers, then there go Doerflinger, Hugill and about 90% of the folkies I know.

Then again, I also know environmental activists who sing "Old Maui", "The Balaena" (sp?), "New Bedford Whalers" (Rant'n'Roar) and other sea gems. I'll have to ask them if they feel it's incorrect, but I'd imagine that for them, the shanties represent a golden period of the seafaring world, and that the songs themselves are not offensive - merely the overzealous whaling nearly wiping the animals off the earth...

I DO understand the racial issues though. Group I sing with on occasions did a cover of "In the Jailhouse Now". The lyrics we started with were from the Memphis Jug Band version, with the line "'stead of him stayin' at home, leavin' those white folks business alone"... you can bet THAT one changed fast... we decided to use "rich". THEM you can make fun of...

M

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:50 AM

Nice touch, Sean. I like the replacement of white with rich - and I guess the converse (ie. black/poor) would work in similar circumstances. When you think about when the songs were written it was probably a good rule of thumb that the rich folks were white and the poor folks black. Not much better in some places now I guess but at least we are working at fixing it!

I will certainly remember the point though and see if I can come up with any other similar substitutions when I come across other contentious wordings. Picanininnies - poor folks kids for instance? Scans anyway!

Thanks again

DtG

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:03 AM

BTW - just remembered that when I was in Antigua a year or so back I was wandering along the lanes and by-ways as is my want when a truck full of black youths passed. One of them called out "Hey - White Nigger!"

I was not sure whether to feel insulted or not and if so why. I did not feel particularly threatened so I ignored it. It was only some weeks later I began to wonder if they were referring to the fact I was walking and looking particularly ill-kept, as is also my want. Perhaps it was a reference to me looking poor?

Anyone know?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Gary T
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:40 AM

While in Ocha Rios, Jamaica, a couple weeks ago we had a quick meal in a fast food restaurant called the Islander Grill. Up on the package meal menu board, illustrated in full color, was the "Pickney Meal," which included a bag of M&M's candy. Can't remember if it had a toy like the McDonald's Happy Meal. "Pickney" was obviously the Jamaican equivalent of the American "kid." I imagine Jamaicans who come to the U.S. soon learn not to use the word.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:43 AM

Some folks like to call children "monkeys" and that gets em in trouble too. -sigh-

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:15 AM

Rugrats. Curtain-climbers. (When the rugrats have picked the cotton doesn't flow like pickers or cotton-pickers...)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 10:40 AM

of course you will still run into people who will rake you over the coals for racism if you substitute "rich" for white and "poor" for black - even if it is the only logical substitution that will preserve the song.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 04:16 PM

This is the first time I've ever even heard the word Piccaninnies... and regardless of it's possible slur connotation, it's a wonderful word to say... it rolls off the tongue in a fantastic way... full of alliteration and assonance... Why ever would you NOT want to say it?

If you're not using the word to be racist, what's the problem? The word itself isn't racist.. it's just a word... Like whitey, or honkey, or cracker, they're just words... It's not the words that are the problem... it's the naïve, bigoted, in-bred, asshole who's using such words to try to hurt someone that's the problem...

Blaming the words and punishing them is like blaming the matches when the kid burns down the house... or blaming the gun when drive-by's occure....

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:12 PM

No, Clinton, you are very wrong. Words are a problem. The word "picaninnie" in the United States was used to describe young slaves. In the post-slavery era, it became a derisive term for black children.

Jimmie Rodgers used the term in a song about 70 years ago, in a time when blacks and whites in the Southern U.S. lived in segregation. Rodgers' use of the term was reflective of his times and his society. What was acceptable then is not necessarily so today.

Today, only a racist would use the term in a non-academic discussion (or song). There are other words like that, I assume that I don't need to list them for you.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:36 PM

No see... I'd say you're wrong Tedham... there are no bad words ever!

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:41 PM

An aside...

Can we please stop using the word 'racist'... it's a falacy in and of itself... the word for someone who hates someone else because of their skine tone, or ethinc back ground is BIGOT... RACE-ism doen't exist... there is only ONE race of upright walking, tool using, language spouting, cave painting homonid on this planet... We're all the same race... Otherwise we wouldn't be able to breed together...(waiting for someone to mention cats and rabbits but...)

It's just one of those language foibles that bugs me... like people who say "irrergardless"... there's no such word...

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 05:49 PM

No bad words Clinton? Words such as 'nigger,' 'kike,' 'spic,' 'chink,'etc. are examples of words whose common usage is meant to convey hatred and subjugation.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:06 PM

Clinton, I finally agree with you! 'Bigot' covers it all. Thank you.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Bedubya
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 06:16 PM

When you run into a fellow musician you haven't seen in a while, is it OK to ask him, "Hey man! Ya been pickin' any?"?

Bruce

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: vindelis
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 07:57 PM

Well you learn something new every day. I will have to add this to my list of words and terms not to be used in the 'UK' way, if I ever visit the United States.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:07 PM

We had a governor impeached, here in Arizona, in the early 90s, and the fact that he referred to young Black children as "pikninnies" at a news conference certainly played a part in his downfall.

DougR

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:27 PM

Clinton, I more or less agree that the word "bigot" is preferable to "racist" (or "racialist" as it's said across the pond). However, it is a species, not a race, which is characterized by the ability of its members to breed with one another. Races are distinctive groups within species, and by definition their members can interbreed. Because of such interbreeding, the "edges" of those races are very blurry (most noticeably here in Hawaii), but just because some things are gray doesn't mean there is no such thing as black or white. There are biological differences between human races; as a doctor, I see that all the time. For example, the predilection of sickle cell disease for Africans, of alpha thalassemia for Southern Asians, and of cystic fibrosis for Northern Europeans.

Be that as it may, however, your point is well taken. And I hasten to add, lest I be misunderstood, that I do not include mental ability among the characteristics that show a racial distribution.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 10:49 AM

tedham...

Those are exactly the sort of words I'm talking about... There's nothing wrong with those words in and of themselves... They are JUST words... It's not the words we have to be afraid of...

It's the bigoted, low-brow, asshole USING them to try to hurt that is the problem...

Why you cut yourself, the blood is not the problem... the problem is the HOLE the blood is coming out of...

MarkC... It's been my education that race denotes genetic differences and that the genetic differences between people from different locals are insignificant if they exist at all... We are all Homo-sapien... that's our race...

But when has education ever been consistent eh?

;-)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 11:41 AM

Clinton, your implication is that you can use such words with impunity if you are not bigoted.

I think not. In the context of our times, the use of such terms is the province of racists. And that's mnot necessarily the same as Jimmie Rodgers or Huck Finn using such words in the context of their times.

(Judging from your postings, I gather you think that "racist" is itself a bad word, but not the words of racists.)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:03 PM

The problem is Clinton where do you draw the line? If a word has connotations for some people then it will cause offence no matter how innocently it is used. Words DO have power and that power has been abused many times and if the get out is to say "I didn't mean it in a racist way" it opens too many doors!

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 05:46 PM

The trouble with words like that is when they are used as weapons. Essentially Clinton's right, the posion doesn't lie in the word itself, it lies in the way they are used.

In the Irish context, for example, "Taig" is a word used by bigotted loyalists and such to describe Catholic Irish. Used like that it's a label of hate.

The word "Taig" actually means poet. I'd be proud to be referred to as such. It's a very honourable label. But not when it's used as a weapon.

(But when you get a situation where people are supposed to stop using words they use without any offensive intent, like Jamaicans and "pickney", just because some bigots have used similar words, that's absurd.)

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 06:01 PM

Here's a song that uses the word to refer to a blue eyed baby, presumably white.

Go to sleep my baby
Close your pretty blue eyes
angels are above you
looking at you dearie from the skies
Great big moon a shining
Stars begin to peep
time for litte pickaninnies
to go to sleep

If you realy want to sing "picaninnies" you could perhaps sing this song first with an explanation of the origins of the word.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 07:19 PM

Interesting point, Bert. I wonder if the baby in the song referred to is White. Sure the baby has blue eyes, but I never heard White children referred to as Pickaninies, and when I was a youngster in Texas, it was a commonly used word.

DougR

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 08:11 PM

You may not have Doug, but I know that I have. Texas is a big place, but it's not the whole world. Nor is the United States.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: John Routledge
Date: 13 Apr 01 - 08:26 PM

The word Piccaninnies was used in UK schools in the 50's to describe young black children in America who were drawn wearing UK style clothes in an attempt to promote racial harmony. Kick the Brits for this as well as it certainly did not work - Pre-supposing kicking Brits is nowadays the only PC verbal abuse allowed. Cheers GB

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: NH Dave
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:34 AM

Mark, it is my understanding that Sickle Cell and Thalassic Anemias are aquired, congenital, diseases that were passed on because they gave those afflicted from the disease some protection from Malaria. Sickle cell would kill you eventually, but it would allow you to live long enough to have children with the trait, while Malaria was an equal opportunity killer. For this reason they are more apt to be found in people from warm or tropical areas, like Africa, Italy and Greece, and South East Asia and the Pacific Islands.

What you might have been better off using as an example would be the distribution/frequencies of blood types, across racial lines, where I understand that there are extreme skewing of the relative distribution of various blood types from one "race" to another.

Dave

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 12:55 AM

Try holding your palm up in front of your mouth and reciting "The terrible power of Words!!" a few times. Then take a look, see if you spilled any blood. Clinton is profoundly correct that it is never the sound, nor the phonemes, nor the morphemes. The construction of a vulnerability to certain meanings, and dramatizing that vulnerability to the point where you get all stirred up if anyone dares to remember that such meanings ever exist is an extreme form of Grundyism, a kind of mental censorship which tries to assert that freedom of thought should be curtailed because it leads to bad behaviour. This is an extremely risky and stupid notion.

No-one has ever been hurt by hearing the word pickaninny. It may be true that the kinds of decisions and actions that are associated witht he people who promulgated its use were harmful or efvil actions or decisions. But that is not the same thing as being harmed by the label. I have been called an ofay motherfucvker, asd well as a commie pinko faggot bastard in my time. The only part of it that hurt was when the fat cop backhanded me across the mouth.

In my personal opinion the obsessive concern about the "harm" of words as words is juvenile and neurotic, like a preteenager flinching and going "Eeeeeeew" when someone mentions conception, or a uterus, or a penis in their presence. They act as though the remindment of the reality was offensive, not to mention the reality itself. It's an immature attitude, and making a dramatic stance of it is below the dighnity and intelligence of most pickaninnies I have met. A

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 02:04 AM

A bigot is a bigot. And bigots use words to hurt. To hide behind the words and say it's not words, it's the "feeling" behnd the words, is to act in a very cowardly fashion, to disown responsibility for one's words.

A bigot is a bigot. And bigots use words to hurt. Nigger, faggot, kike, dyke, wop, mick, chink, gook, trailer trash, femi-Nazi, it's all pretty much the same...

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 07:35 AM

They can also use do-gooder, bleeding heart, man, woman, foreigner, gay, dog, cow, suit, Jew, Christian, Muslim...

Any word can be used as a weapon, if someone is that way inclined. Just think back to your schooldays, if you still can. Every time a useful word is abandoned because it is used as a weapon, that is a forced retreat and a small victory for bigotry. In any war there is likely to be a time when retreat is appropriate, and there are words that I am all in favour of pensioning off (such as "moron") - but this kind of thing should be recognised as a retreat, and we should try to protect the language from this kind of erosion.

Subject: RE: Is 'Piccaninnies' Non-PC ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:44 AM

" to disown responsibility for one's words. "

Exactily wrong Peg... It's to take responsibility for ones words! To know what you're saying and for what reasons...

I have nothig agains people who make the consious decision to stop using words like are mentioned above... What I have a problem with is Language Nazis who think they can tell ME what words I can and cannot use...

Make you your mind for yourslf, and leave me to do the same... If we disagree... well... good... What a boring-ass, PC, white-bread-and-cracker world it'd be if everybody agreed all the time!

Tedham... I don't think that racist is a BAD word... I think it's an inaccurate word... To me, the trem racist has no meaning because as I said, we're all one race... I thing the word bigot is a better word to use to describe the kind of person who judges on the basis of skin tone and ethnic background... But that's just me...