BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:51 PM

In 1984, my wife and I were visiting friends in Long Beach, CA. One day, the four of us went to Tijuana. Sight-seeing, visiting a lot of shops, ate lunch in a sidewalk café (boy, do they use a lot of Velveeta there! Melt it, pour it over everything!!), wading through hordes of kids begging money off tourists (they've got the plaintive eyes down to an exact science). We watched with amusement as a couple of smart-ass Aussie tourists dickering with a sidewalk photographer who would take your picture while standing next to a mangy burro.

By the way, the begging kids were reasonably well-dressed, quite chubby, and obviously well-fed. Some of them probably should have been put on a diet! Begging from tourists was just a thing they did.

Barbara bought a nice looking embroidered dress. For kicks, I looked at a few guitars. Covered with mother-of-pearl inlay, sap still oozing out of the wood, tone like an apple crate, and they'd case it up for you in a big plastic bag with a twist-tie – all of this for $25.00. I decided to stick with my Arcangel Fernandez flamenco, made in Madrid, thank you.

In North America, I've been over lots of the United States, all across Canada, including up in the Caribou country.

But I can't really say that I've ever been to Mexico. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 03:30 PM

"By the way, the begging kids were reasonably well-dressed, quite chubby, and obviously well-fed. Some of them probably should have been put on a diet! Begging from tourists was just a thing they did." (Don)...and, at the end of the day, I noticed them leave, in groups, on small trucks, as just as many prostitutes took their places on the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 04:51 PM

Right, David.

I don't think you would have found that Mexico City is quite like that, though.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 05:03 PM

Yes, Don - although on the BBC's World News Today, recently, there was an article on how bad, and widespread (if worse in such frontier towns), drug-related killings have become in Mexico, sadly.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 05:49 AM

Poem 166 of 230: COLOURFUL LLANDUDNO - SUMMER 2001

Seated within the Greenery,
    Looking up, from a plate of toast
(Reddened with beans and tomatoes),
    Along Chapel Street's three-storey
Flats in white with red or yellow,
    Or white with a brown or a blue
(White with almost every hue),
    I thought: "Colourful Llandudno."

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

(P.S: I think I'll change "Rep. of Mexico," above, to "Model Mexico.")

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 06:22 AM

I noticed on the news a meeting between the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope: both the imperialistic Anglican and Roman Catholic movements should be dissolved, and replaced by a Church of Italy only, a Church of England only, a Church of Germany, a Church of Wales, etc.

Poem 219 of 230: FURTHER ANTI-IMPERIALISM

Let each Christian nation have its own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 06:39 AM

Should, WAV? On your say-so alone? And you wonder why I question your attitude at times! The RC theological tradition is very distinct from Anglicanism and answers very different spiritual & cultural needs. Take them away and we've lost 2,000 years of a continuity that mere Christianity can't replace.

If you followed your argument to its logical extreme then we shouldn't have Christianity in England at all - it is a foreign import rail-roaded in on the back of an occupying imperialist empire. Furthermore, Christianity has been the ruin to your much cherished multi-cultural world, reducing many the once proud indigenous tribal culture to alcohol swilling, Bird-Dancing idiots - as I once saw on an documentary on the Inuits some years ago; images that stay with me yet! And all in the name of - Jesus! Bullshit, WAV - Christianity is Imperialistic by default - and if you were any lover of England and a Multi-Cultural world you'd throw it away and get back to the Old Religions of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Hell, if you accept Folk Music as Our Own Good Culture, then why not Druidism????

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:35 AM

"The RC theological tradition is very distinct from Anglicanism" (S.)...of course - but what they have in common is their centralisation/imperialism; and , given all that has obviously happened, we should focus on what's best FROM NOW ON. And surely one thing you have in common with me is a dislike of imperialism.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: s&r
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 08:52 AM

I thought this thread was reserved for poetry doggerel and such?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:25 AM

Instead, Stu., we decided to fill it with verse and prose of high literary merit!

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: s&r
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:33 AM

Or with bizarre and unjustifiable belief structures that rankle with those who have any understanding of religion, anthropology, English, football, tennis, poetry, women and the other mix of subjects on which you pontificate with a limited education and little comprehension

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:48 AM

Come, come, Stu!

You well know that WAV has a degree in humanities, along with 4 technical certificates in manufacturing

I am not worthy ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:49 AM

Joking apart, then, Stu, as well as 4 technical certificates in manufacturing, I have a degree in humanities, with a major in anthroplogy, during which my "comprehension" was sound enough to earn me distinctions for most of my essays, and the offer of an honours place.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:51 AM

...and, thinking alike, another great mind has just joined us!

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 09:55 AM

...and, thinking alike, another great mind has just joined us!

Mind you, fools seldom differ....

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 10:45 AM

Looking back over the miles this thread has traveled, the classic notion of pathos rises to mind with irresistible force.

A

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: mandotim
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:24 PM

I am reminded more of bathos, on balance.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:36 PM

Asperger's is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 01:59 PM

Madio, you are quite correct. Apologies for the misplaced consonant.

Swear not by the rune,
The inconsonant rune...

(Romanoff and Jellico, 1786)

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:03 PM

Somehow I think this has something in common with this thread.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:17 PM

Spaw:

I thought you apologized for all that? Bend over and I'll show you a new use for those drumsticks...



A

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

Admit it Amos.....You're jealous of those drumsticks!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:18 PM

Don't forget, along with that degree in anthropology and all those certificates, he can also drive a forklift—

DAMN!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 03:31 PM

FROM NOW ON

So zero hour is 23 Nov 09 - 08:35 AM Mudcat Time?

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM

"Asperger's is the first thing that comes to my mind" (Ed)...delicious, though - even just with toast and ketchup.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:18 AM

150 years ago today, Charles Darwin released - On the Origin of Species...

Poem 96 of 230: PARADIGMS

"Thirty-all" is, in effect, "deuce";
    Nobody has seen an "atom":
An atom remains a model;
    "Thirty-all" an umpire's call.
"They we just simply had to bomb";
    And there are other given "truths"...

If we humans evolved from apes,
Why on earth are there living apes?

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:52 AM

Just for you

"Comparisons of DNA show that our closest living relatives are the ape species of Africa, and most studies by geneticists show that chimpanzees and humans are more closely related to each other than either is to gorillas. However, it must be stressed that humans did not evolve from living chimpanzees. Rather, our species and chimpanzees are both the descendants of a common ancestor that was distinct from other African apes. This common ancestor is thought to have existed in the Pliocene between 5 and 8 million years ago, based on the estimated rates of genetic change. Both of our species have since undergone 5 to 8 million years of evolution after this split of the two lineages. Using the fossil record, scientists attempt to reconstruct the evolution from this common ancestor through the series of early human species to today's modern human species."

stu

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: mandotim
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:06 AM

And while we are doing WAV's corrections for him; electron microscopy and micrography has now advanced to the point where people certainly have seen an atom. This breakthrough was made in the late 1970s, rendering WAV's 2003 poem a little archaic.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 09:37 AM

Having read the quote posted by Stu, and this on "seeing" atoms, I still question these "paradigms".

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM

Dear Gawd, David, are you being thick on purpose?

Do you think someone made up the electron-microscopic images that clearly show the wee bundles we call atoms?

Granted, they are probability distributions acting like particles, and not actual solid particles. But that's true of all matter. What "paradigm" do you prefer looking at the evidence, then? Intercessory divinity?


A

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:21 AM

No Amos, he prefers the pair of dimes in his pocket that jingle when he plays pool in their location..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:39 PM

Spaw: you've avoided such below-the-belt language for months, as I've largely avoided sarcasm...

Amos: eureka!...that device conveniently (but definitely!) allows us to see the very "atom" we've known of for years - and they even look just like Rutherford's planetary model!

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 12:45 PM

I don't suppose a simple expository sentence is too much to ask? "Conveniently" implies you think the physics is somehow being manipulated? Or that the Rutherford model (which is not what shows up, nor what was expected, BTW) is a powerful reality-morphiong belief? Or what?

In 25 words or less, complete the following sentence:

"My preferred paradigm to explain atomic phenomena is...".



A

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:28 PM

If we humans evolved from apes,
Why on earth are there living apes?

Simple - because it was only selected higher primates that were used by the Martians to be developed into Humans. Suggest you watch Quatermass and the Pit for both evolutionary enlightenment and to further your appreciation of English Culture.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:43 PM

I'll look out for that one, S., plus The Wicker Man, and get back to you Amos...

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:59 PM

"If we humans evolved from apes,
Why on earth are there living apes?"

This is a bit like asking
"If I am a descendant of my great-great-great-grandfather,
Why on earth do I have living cousins?"

????

Same deal. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

The logical stement "All P are descended from some Q" does not imply that "All Q have become P". There is no contradiction there.


A

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

At least we're minding our Ps and Qs now.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:14 PM

LMAO.....Uh, first, I fail to see what my comment had that was so terrible or anymore below the belt than Amos asking if you were "being thick on purpose."

And to be truthful, you know diddly-squat about sarcasm but I'd be happy to teach you if you like........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: richd
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM

Intersesting where the 'occult' or magic comes from in these British Horrors. Although the horror in Quatermas and the Pit comes from Mars, its manifestation is distinctly urban. Compare with the Wicker man, where the 'horror' comes from the rural. In the Wicker Man the ocult seems also to be a form of expertese, again a common theme in British Horror, especially where the source of the occult is male. Suimmerisle is also a libertine. Where the source is female, then these tend to be less intellectual. Interesting also that both are horrors by the skin of their teeth if at all- the Sci-fi element in QATP is dominant, and I'm not sure about TWM. I think it's more of a detective yarn that goes adrift. Now, for real fear- how about The Stone Tape- also a Nigel Kneale. Anyway praise be that it's not all documentary realism.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

I think I see your point, richd, but I have no idea what the source of the occult is in this particular British Horror...



A

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: richd
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:29 PM

Sorry, strayed into the wrong thread......it was the beer guv'nor. There's strange things. Dark things down here.
I'll move along quietly.......Sorry...don't tell anyone I was here.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:45 PM

In both QATP & The Stone Tape, Kneale is bluffing up the supernatural with a deeper scientific rational - but it's the science that ultimately proves more terrifying, feeding as it does into the primal terror of The Stone Tape, or the revelations of Martian genetic experiment and colonisation in QATP. Despite the bogus pagan trappings, there is no such supernatural element in The Wicker Man, just the bleakness of totalitarian society and how easy human being will participate in institutionalised murder. This the horror of what human beings are capable of. Whatever the horror quotient of QATP, it still the only film capable of scaring me shitless!

You taking notes, WAV? Watch out on BBC4 over Christmas for the usual round of classic ghost stories, not like that Mark Gatis shite they served up last year!

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:14 AM

Poem 14 of 230: NIGHT OR DAY?!

In the far north of Sweden,
    A "Land of the Midnight Sun,"
A strange thing chanced upon me -
    And I'll tell you, just for fun.

Got off a train late-morning
    (Had to catch same one next day)
And trudged far to the Youth Hostel -
    Paying for a one-night stay.

I spent the afternoon sightseeing,
    Then, after a latish dinner,
Returned to my own small bedroom -
    The comfy bed proving a winner.

For I soon dozed into dreamy sleep -
    Waking what was just two hours hence;
But my watch was an analogue,
    And night or day I couldn't sense!

I quickly packed all my things
    (My train an hour or thirteen on)
And hurried out the bedroom -
    The bright sky a sneaky con.

I wandered down the track a bit
    (The Hostel office empty),
Before a smiling helpful local
    Did kindly enlighten me.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: GUEST,Richd in work
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:55 AM

I think one of the (many) interesting things about both The Stone Tape and Quatermass and the Pit is that in the end both science and religion are both inadequate to contain the supernatural. Perhaps this is less so in Quatermass and the Pit. But in The Stone Tape both clearly fail (e.g. the final shot of Brock listening to Jills' screams). The second point, that the The Wicker Man contains no supernatural element is interesting, although a silmilar argument can be made that Quatermass and the Pit and The Stone Tape contain no supernatural elements either- only misunderstood science. This is also interesting because there seem to be thematic similarities between the three male characters- Summerisle, Quatermass, and Brock. They are all misunderstood scientists! The final point about totalitarianism and the dark human mind- yes, I'm sure that's there. But that describes many films from many times and many genres: what's specific to The Wicker Man? Again the 'bogus pagan' element is there, as there is a 'bogus science' element to QTP and TST but that's not all that's there. It might not even be the most important thing that's there. An interesting question is what these 'bogus' elements do in these particular examples. Films, even horror films, are capable of complexity, and the interplay of the different themes and ideas within The Wicker Man is one of the most interesting things about a film I think is flawed and quite weak.

Mark Gatiss. Hmm- I wish they'd show The Signalman this year. Interesting how in Britain it's Christmas for ghosts, not Halloween.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 05:11 AM

"Interesting how in Britain it's Christmas for ghosts, not Halloween."

Didn't the Victorians start that tradition?
I'd like to know more about it actually, as reading/watching ghost stories are one of the remaining things about Xmas tradition, I rather enjoy - it feels so old fashioned and 'grounding' in the midst of all the excess.

Saw Tim Burtons 'Sweeney Tod' t'other day, thought it would make an ideal kitch musical horror for Xmas.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:06 AM

Both TST & QATP are seminal influences on my general philosophy of Life, The Universe & Everything - as an atheist I don't believe in the supernatural, but I do believe that there is a whole lot more to material reality that accounts for what we humans in our sensory deprivation think of as being supernatural. This, for me, is where the horror kicks in.

By bogus paganism in TWM I mean the Frazerian folkoric foundations of Summerisle which underlie much neo-paganism today. What's specific in TWM is that those ideas have been used to repress humanity into placid compliance much as they were in Nazi Germany - see my post HERE for more on this. The bogus science of Kneale is the sci-fi language; in the worlds of TST & QATP the science is real, but in the world of The Wicker Man we are left in no doubt that the paganism is indeed a sham - the opiate by which the islanders have been coerced into lumpen passivity.

Christmas Ghost Stories? M R James, and The Signalman - and maybe a little Rolt I think! Be nice to see a season of old dark British cinema - stuff like Dead of Night and The Rocking Horse Winner. Hell, I'd even be happy with Dr Terror's House of Horrors in which we Lee & Cushing alongside Allan 'Fluff' Freeman and Roy Castle, who explores similar themes to The Mighty Boosh regarding the true The Spirit of Jazz.

Staying into Re-Imagined Village territory here I think.

Encounter anything spooky on your travels, WAV?

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:18 AM

SO'P What's that one with the painting of the house with the light in the window, where someone's spirit becomes trapped? I aught to get some of these old films on DVD, because though I always used to stay up late as a kid to watch them (well past my bedtime, round Nanna's house on a Friday night) they never seem to put the buggers on anymore, so my memory is a pretty hazy.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:59 AM

Dr Terror's House of Horrors is one of the best films I have EVER seen.

MR James - brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: WalkaboutsVerse Anew
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:02 AM

Charles Dickens used to put ghost stories into Christmas editions of his magazine "Household words" and as separate stories-within-stories in his Christmas books. I'm unsure as to whether he started that tradition or whether he continued an existing tradition. However, I think it's true that the "traditional" Victorian Christmas as we see it on cards, for example - the snow, holly, coaches, robins, fir trees, lamplit windows, ladies & gents strolling through snowscapes - is very much a product of Dickens' influence.