The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Subject: Folklore: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM

(I've been told a mod. will look at why The Weekly Walkabout was closed and, meantime, to start this new temporary thread.)

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

(I wrote this just after repatriating 11 years ago.)

Poem 43 of 230: A BAYSWATER BED-SIT

Arrived in London,
    At Heathrow Airport -
With sixty kilos
    Of luggage I'd brought.

Found a paper, Loot,
    And called an agent;
Stored two heavy bags,
    Then to him I went.

For one week of rent,
    He'd ensure a bed
Within Bayswater -
    A bed-sit, he said.

It was eighty pounds
    Per week, nothing more,
With a lift arranged
    To the building's door.

Knackered and sleepless,
    I took the deal;
Checked-in quickly,
    Had a rushed meal.

Collected my bags
    (Tube there, shared-van back),
Then carried them up
    To my top-floor shack.

A penthouse - no need,
    It did me just fine;
A cook-top and fridge,
    A table to dine.

Seated, I could watch
    The clouds roll by -
Often from the west -
    Or jets cut the sky.

There were large plane-trees,
    A squirrel or two;
And pigeons dropped by -
    Foregrounding the view.

Plus, at dawn, the sun
    Shined in from the east -
Filling the small room
    As on egg I'd feast.

And contemplating,
    It occurs to me -
If all lived that well,
    How great it would be.

But a lot do sleep
    Outdoors many nights -
On sheets of cardboard,
    Without basic rights.

From walksaboutverse.741.com

---

I allowed this thread in the music section because I thought it was mostly poetry. Since it's not, I think it should move back down to the non-music section. No offense intended - it just seems to be time for it to go below the line because it's more "insider" Mudcatter stuff than music-related.
-Joe Offer-
13 August 2008

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:00 PM

Thanks, W. Your poem arouses clear pictures in my mind.

When my husband and I went to Europe one year (I believe it was 2004), we got the wacky idea of photographing the surfaces we were walking on. There was a 'marble' floor in Heathrow airport with beautiful fossils which we photographed. I'm sure thousands of people walk over them and never notice them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:14 AM

I've just remembered who WAV reminds me of, Arnold Rimmer.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:25 AM

I don't think Arnold Rimmer wrote poetry.

I am reminded more of Stephen Leacock...

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/oh-mr-malthus/

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-social-plan/

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 02:53 AM

You may comment on the poetry, and even critique it. But personal attacks are not allowed. Message deleted.

WAV doesn't write poetry either..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

What I can't understand is, if some people don't like what is written in these threads, why they even bother to open them, much less take the time to abuse the person who starts them. I'm guessing they like to get their jollies by bullying easy targets. Or maybe the only way they are able to feel good about themselves is by belittling others.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 08:44 PM

Walkabout-

Thanks for posting this again and becoming a member.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:27 PM

Spaw is doing a public service, providing balance. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM

As for Arnold, Eric, sorry but I rarely, if ever, watch television plays. Thanks for the Leacock poems, Carol - before and during writing "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse" I was reading/studying quite a lot of poetry (despite what my old Spawing-partner said!), but it was nearly all from an English anthology, frankly, and I'd not read any of his poems (although I knew the name).
And thanks, Charley - I've just had another message from a moderator, and this thread may be moved up to the music section, where the "walkaboutsverse" now-dead-thread was originally.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:26 AM

How does studying one anthology qualify as quite a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:27 AM

I never knew Red Dwarf was a television play.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM

Well what kind of television series is it then, Volgadon? And I meant that I read quite a lot of Chaucer, Milton, Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Blake, and other "big names" in the English anthology of verse. I've also read a bit of American verse, as well as Australians such as Henry Lawson.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:00 AM

Gee.... I thought it was a critique of the poetry.

Actually I agree with moving this thread out of BS. It has a place as folklore above.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

I think Red Dwarf is, or at least certainly was a vital part of English / British culture. Indeed watching it is a shared tradition among my contemporaries. Hurrah!

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM

What I can't understand is, if some people don't like what is written in these threads, why they even bother to open them, much less take the time to abuse the person who starts them. I'm guessing they like to get their jollies by bullying easy targets. Or maybe the only way they are able to feel good about themselves is by belittling others

If people set themselves up as something, relentlessly promoting themselves and their life's work, then they are openly inviting and actively encouraging criticism, often entirely negative. But it's not a matter of bullying easy targets, rather one of fighting a particular ideological corner that has been breached and otherwise affronted by ideas as odiously inhumane as we find expressed in many of these poems. The only truly offensive thing we find in these threads is the reactionary ideology of the poet coupled with his seemingly desperate need for a platform for a relentless self-promotion which in itself will be regarded with various degrees of suspicion by many here given our own involvements with creative work, on whatever level.

Apart from anything else, Mudcat is a place of recreation; a place to sit around and chat, with a little bit of self-promotion here and there, but for the most part we're just getting on with what we do in our creative / professional lives and coming here for a bit crack on topics that interest and amuse us. There are other places for self-promotion and publication - and, personally, I would dearly love to see an end of it on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

"There are other places for self-promotion and publication - and, personally, I would dearly love to see an end of it on Mudcat."


The Fooles Troupe think deeply about this and then ignore it.


THE AUTHOR


:-P

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

...is that you playing a crumhorn, FT?

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:06 AM

It also might be worth taking it another step further. If you have actually visited WAV's site it needs more coherency and organiztion not available in the webspace he's using.

His works are an important example of the emerging additions to the folklore of the world and need to be hosted elsewhere so they can be more readily seen. As he is a 'Catter perhaps Max could host it here. It would save a lot of the reposting WAV has to do and instead of long threads he could be aided in making his works available to all on disc as is done with the DT.   This might be done as an adjunct to the DT which might aid in also drawing more to Mudcat.

His verses could also be accessed by several different searches if it were hosted here. This too might aid both the DT and Mudcat in visitors.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 09:30 AM

When I first posted the "walkaboutsverse" thread, Spaw, folks said I should re-do my site, with one poem per page. I've left it as an E-scroll (similar to a mudcat thread), but I did transfer it from Word to FrontPage, which cut the KBs from about 900 to about 650.
I've also tried and failed to put the lot as a myspace blog - so, instead, I have just the same Weekly Walkabout as here.
This was done with a level 1, and a bit of level 2, computer certificate behind me, on a free put-up-with-ads site, and I accept there are many who could do it better. But, once on the site, it is very easy to navigate, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

I'm sure Max or Dick could help you a lot with a better way to search yourwritings to help find pertinent information. I could see it as a part of the DT in a way once Max agreed to host it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

Spaw what are you smokin'? I don't even see any kitty litter needing to be cleaned up!:->

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM

I quit smoking everything as you know darlin'..............I'm just trying to give WAV a few options here.

I think Max and Dick will see the value and importance of his life's work and try to perhaps get him aboard here so he can more easily and broadly share. Making a more searchable and accessible version of his verse cannot but help and will also bring additional interest in both the Digitrad and Mudcat. At the very least it would be a wonderful complement and valuable adjunct to the DT.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM

"...is that you playing a crumhorn, FT?"

Nope - I've been eating beans again.


Oh, the site! Sorry!

No - I obtained the music midi files from someone on the net - who has now shifted, and I have lost track of where his new site is.



"folks said I should re-do my site,"

I would totally agree.

If you look at the way I did 'The Fooles Routines' pages, that is the sort of layout I would suggest, WAV - one poem/item per HTML page. I made a basic HTML file template, then plugged in each routine. As I wrote new ones, I just wrote them straight in to the template (remember to save a backup copy of the template somewhere!). As I added each new one, I just modified the HTML index pages. I have several indexes, some by date, some by theme. You can do as many manual indexes as you want. Really, for a 'small' collection, doing it by hand that way is far less hassle than setting up some sort of live search engine!

I would also suggest that doing the HTML 'by hand' as basic as possible, using all the HTML defaults, gives the smallest file sizes - faster downloads, and more files in the storage area allowed. Most of those programs you mention add so much pointless bloated crap that you can easily shrink down to about 1/4 or less the size of 'real' (essential***) HTML. If you really paid attention to those courses, and properly read the HTML (recommend staying with HTML Ver4) manual, you can easily work it out - then it's just practice!

***HTML was intentionally designed for simplicity (assuming that the viewer would be setting all the defaults, such as fonts, sizes, colours, etc), then the 'experts' turned it into just another "Pretty Print Text Layout" mess.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:01 AM

Is there a surgeon handy who can deal with such severe cases of the Mudcat lingua franca?

SRS

(AKA tongue-in-cheek disease)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:55 AM

Spaw done jumped the shark with a weiner in his mouth this time.


A

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:11 AM

That's what I thought, FT - FrontPage is more efficient than Word (above), but someone who knows html could (given quite a lot of time I'd imagine) cut the KBs down again considerably, with the exact same E-scroll format (which I do prefer to 1 page/poem). The CSV course I did here was just level 1, and we learnt web-design with Word. I taught myself FrontPage (there wasn't much extra to know) when folks on mudcat and elsewhere said it was more efficient; but, yes, I believe you that there's still lots of unnecessary html in there. However, when I find a spelling mistake or suchlike, FrontPage makes it quick and easy to fix, plus more-and-more have broadband and are used to heavier sites from using myspace, etc...also, there's the keyboard and recorder fingering to more than 50 tunes to learn and, ideally, get into my head!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM

Well, as it shares very little in common with plays, I would call it a comedy series.

As for poetry, that isn't really what you said.

"Well what kind of television series is it then, Volgadon? And I meant that I read quite a lot of Chaucer, Milton, Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Blake, and other "big names" in the English anthology of verse. I've also read a bit of American verse, as well as Australians such as Henry Lawson."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:23 PM

Either way, Volgadon, I'd rather watch (sometimes while on the computer, sometimes while practising the more difficult keyboard and recorder fingering in my repertoire) documentaries, news, tennis, or listen, via satellite, to folk radio from different parts of these isles.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 05:48 PM

I was just wondering why you called it a play, when it shares little of the format or style of a play. Documentaries are great, news is pointless to watch for more than a couple of times a day, sports are alright if you enjoy them and music is wonderful, but so is watching comedy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

"someone who knows HTML [note correct capitals!] could (given quite a lot of time I'd imagine) cut the KBs down again considerably,"

Not as much time as you might think. Actually it would be easier with most of those programs to just start from the beginning with a clean slate - and a PLANNED [on paper] Layout.

"The CSV course I did here was just level 1, and we learnt web-design with Word."

AAAAAGGGGGHHHH! I'm disgusted people are paid money to brain damage others with that rubbish! :-) It's NOT 'HTML' it's just an error ridden "word porncessor"! I mean it F***s up the HTML...


"FrontPage ... there's still lots of unnecessary html in there."
"when I find a spelling mistake or suchlike, FrontPage makes it quick and easy to fix"

Ah! If you want to speak French fluently, you don't think in English and translate everything - you learn to THINK IN FRENCH! If you want to write good compact correct HTML, you WRITE GOOD CORRECT HTML DIRECT! If you want, you CAN write it with just notepad, but I used NotePad Plus (even PAID for it!) under Windoze - I am looking for something else to run under Linux. The program colour coded all the correct open & close HTML 'buckets' if the syntax was correct, or it just showed black text starting where there was a problem. It also could load templates for any programming language. It thus picked up any HTML syntax spelling error instantly, while typing.


"more-and-more have broadband and are used to heavier sites from using myspace"

Ah - but people still PAY for the VOLUME (with limits), so that argument is just as hopelessly weak as the one about 'big files just load slower on dialup' - the MacroCrap Argument... just ask John in Kansas about Microsoft .... :-) I HATE 'MyCrapSpace' - and I use all sort of tools to shut off most of the graphics to speed it up, unless it is something I really WANT to see... :-) When I save a 'file' from places like there, I also get umpty dozen files of pointless useless crap in css & js files as well, that usually just DUPLICATE all the 'standard HTML defaults' anyway! ... which means that 'the author' (or their manager) doesn't really know the theory of what they are doing...   KISS! There's also less to go wrong then...


"also, there's the keyboard and recorder fingering to more than 50 tunes to learn and, ideally, get into my head"

Hmmm, you REALLY need to think, if learning tunes always seems so difficult, are you really a 'muso'? :-(

50? 50 ?!! 50??!!!!! Only 50 !!!!? I play about a dozen different instruments, and never bother about learning things off by heart, after all I learnt by 'the classical method' where it is usually expected that you will have the dots as a mainly unlooked at 'security blanket' anyway. That said I can play thousands of tunes (different ones on each instrument) without music, but the hassle is remembering the way they start... :-) Of course I can also extemporise endlessly, as I used to do on Pipe Organ instead of playing from sheet music during the Walkout - wait on, I mean after the service finished! :-)

Of course, we all have to start somewhere, and the first few years are always the hardest...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 03:53 AM

Thanks, FT, and, yes, as the months go by, I am getting a bit quicker/better at learning a new tune from the score; memorising it (which is a folky thing, but, apparently, also the trend in classical music); and mimicking, on recorder/keys, my Chants from Walkabouts (I've about half of these simple tunes "worked out", I think?!).
Having read your info. on HTML, I opened the "walkaboutsverse" dead-thread, which closed just short of a 1000 posts, and, for comparison, did a right-click of my mouse for "properties" - it said about 1300KB, which made me think that maybe my FrontPage version is not that inefficient at about 650KB for 230 poems..?
I think others did that same level 1 course on web-design, at the CSV, on FrontPage, and I've heard others say we should not have been learning on Word. But, as I say, there was not much extra to learn when I did transfer to FrontPage.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:12 AM

The trend?????? Eh? Most musicians try to memorise the tunes they play, at least partways. Classical music tends to emphasize exactness, and is of considerable length, so naturally you use sheet music a lot.

"memorising it (which is a folky thing, but, apparently, also the trend in classical music);"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:13 AM

"memorising it (which is a folky thing, but, apparently, also the trend in classical music"

Actually the Prima Donna Soloists have always done it in Classical Music, but 'Session Musos' in all genres have always been good 'sight readers'.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 06:52 AM

I was thinking of the BBCs young musician of the year competition, which is mostly classical and once involved a senior judge criticising a young classical musician for NOT sight reading. And, in the last one, the Beeb showed (perhaps too much) how the students prepared, with visualisation techiniques being popular. Thus, I stand by what I said regarding a trend toward playing-by-heart in the classical scene, more than in the past (which that judge also noted).
Would you both agree, FT and Volgadon, that the ideal "in all genres" is to be able to sight-read and play-by-ear well?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:05 AM

Regarding the need to read music, I'm reminded of the old story about the very famous country music bass player in Nashville, who was asked on arriving at a recording session 'Do you read music?'. The reply? 'Not enough to hurt my playing'.
As with so many things, a search for absolutes and 'ideal' situations seems futile. There are just too many variables; live or recording studio? Music genre? Structured or improvisation? Solo or ensemble? The good news is it seems to be possible to succeed in music with or without the ability to read music. The real determinants seem to be talent, motivation, dedication and a degree of originality.
Incidentally WAV; well done for not mentioning your website in your last post.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:13 AM

Also Tim,

In a 'restricted music genre' some musos only need to know the 'formula' to make their part fit in the ensemble,e.g. some parts need only the chord progression, not the melody as such.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:40 AM

Hi Foolestroupe! Agreed; in something like the blues, or country, or even traditional tunes, there is an underlying formula that tends to dictate the structure. The people I consider to be really talented seem to be able to play outside the patterns and switch readily between genres, and are able to be proficient in the new genre almost immediately. Gardner (see here) has a theory of mutiple intelligences, suggesting that our traditional idea of academic intelligence is too limited. One of his 'intelligences' is a musical intelligence. Perhaps this exists independently of the ablity to sight read?
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:04 AM

"The real determinants seem to be talent, motivation, dedication and a degree of originality."...now that really IS idealistic, Mandotim...you don't see any taut-tushed mimers making a fortune from the music industry - I think there's heaps of hype...

"Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support" (from here).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 10:12 AM

Perhaps this exists independently of the ability to sight read?

Let's hope so! This is a particular bugbear with me as, try as I might, I cannot understand musical notation in any shape or form. I think there's a defective gene, or some sort of dyslexic thing going on in what I laughingly call my brain that has been a scourge and embarrassment for my entire life. If I hated music this wouldn't be a problem of course, much less if I wasn't a pretender to the cause in terms of experimental, medieval & folkish idioms, but I console myself with the thoughts that musical notation is a comparatively recent development in terms of western history anyway, emerging with regard to the medieval scholastic tradition and developing into the music we now think of as Classical, which by definition includes all Western derived Art Music of the last nine hundred years.

Meanwhile, the non-literate Non-Art Music existed by virtue of some other process, evolving out of the melismatic modal crooning of the Indo-European hunter-gatherers which somehow sang itself into existence like birdsong and of which we still find an echo in the Irish sean nos or the Sami joik, or in the Muezzin calling the faithful to prayer, which, in turn, works its way into the Revival of British Folk Song via Ewan McColl trying to get some of that into his own singing, and urging others to do likewise. This other thing we think of as the Oral Tradition is not simply a matter of playing by ear, rather being a part of a transfigurative process of dissemination by which the thing itself undergoes a vibrant renewal with each new birth, both individually, and collectively, which is the essence of the process we might think of as being Folk Music. Once we write it down it's dead on the page; it's a relic in a museum, but not without its own persuasive mediumistic potency should we be successful in raising the spectres of ages past in that most glorious of Seances we call The Singaround, or, for those of an instrumental bent, The Session.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 11:21 AM

WAV, I won't apologise for seeming idealistic :)! However, there is some pragmatism here as well; if you look at those performers who have sustained a career beyond the ephemeral world of the one or two hit wonder, there is generally a degree of real musical ability there, either in the performer themselves or in those who play/arrange/produce the music for them. I'm able to ignore (mostly) the taut tushed mimers, as you put it, and listen to what's actually going on in the music. A good example here is K T Tunstall, an English singer/songwriter. She could be viewed as a lightweight pop singer, but no; she is older than the norm, and has done the hard work of gigging with a band for some years before getting a break. 'Manufactured' boy/girl singing groups tend not to sustain, although they make a lot of money while they can. Those who do sustain tend to have talent; have you ever heard Westlife singing a capella with no amplification? I took my youngest daughter to see them some years ago. They stepped out from the mikes, and filled a large theatre with a really glorious sound.
There is a danger here though, and that's the pernicious practice of sampling the work of others and putting it out as your own; the recent offering from Kid Rock springs to mind, a blatant sample of Warren Zevon's Werewolves of London. Anyone with a mixer and a computer can do this now, thanks to digital technology, and it worries me that there is less incentive to develop original talent as a result.
Regarding the determinants; I forgot 'luck'!
Back to promoting your website I see. Sigh.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM

I agree in part, again, Tim - but the examples you give are people from these parts practising American culture instead of their own (as The Beatles were very good at). As a multiculturalist, I admire much more folks from around the world who are good at THEIR OWN culture.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM

For me, when the recorder was my main instrument, I practiced until the fingering became second nature and I never really had to think about it any more. And then, once that happened, all I had to do was know a melody in my head, and if I could whistle it, I could play it on the recorder. Which, I guess, is another way of saying I tended to play by ear. I could do this with any simple melody, but much longer classical pieces, I had difficulty with playing because I couldn't memorize them very well, and I never was able to read music for the recorder.

I can read music for the accordion, and I do (mostly for the basses, which I sometimes have difficulty memorizing), but I can play a melody on the keyboard side by ear (if I can whistle it, I can play it). I'm sure that's because I've been playing on keyboards since I was a child and the notes have become second nature on that instrument as well.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

It didn't take me long to teach myself, in my late 30s, to sight-read (only the top-line melody, mind) but I find playing-by-ear/mimicking my above-mentioned Chants much more difficult (I'd earlier simply found a way to sing/chant my verses without being able to read or write music). On the other hand, someone sat next to me at a folk-club, who can't sight-read, worked out the fingering for a folk-song literally within minutes of me singing it - I guess it's at least partly knowing the instrument very well, as you say, Carol.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: mandotim
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM

WAV, I wish you would get off your one-note melody about Englishness; I'm trying to have a rational and friendly discussion here. KT Tunstall; have you ever heard her sing? Do you know what she sings about? Her songs are about her experience here, in England. Westlife are Irish, and I didn't name the song I used as an example. It was a traditional Irish air, sung unaccompanied, with words by an Irishman. How was that 'American culture'?
Are you saying that the whole of the Beatles canon was American? Have you ever been to Penny Lane? Do you know where Strawberry Fields is?
I'm going to leave this thread now, because I'm always bored by monomaniacs.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

WAV, nearly every aspect of English cultutre has it's roots somewhere else in the world. Morriss dancing is a case in point, as is tennis. Your very recorder is another case in point, a foreign instrument used to play courtly music brought over from Europe.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

Here's a couple of websites I designed and built using only some CSS I stole from other sites and HTML. I've not ever used any tools for building websites, and while mine are far from professional, it shows that someone with little or no training can build a workable website without using any tools (everything I know, I learned from a book on HTML, from studying other people's websites, and some basic stuff from the Mudcat). The first one uses a free service and as one can see, the ads aren't too intrusive, and they can even be hidden by the person viewing the page...

http://www.geocities.com/kevan_tolley/index.htm

http://www.alcdv.com/ArtFurniture.html

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

THose are very nice web pages, Carol!


A

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

I don't understand this 'written music versus learning by ear thing'. Nobody complains or argues about the written word, why this friction about writing music down, or being able to read it? And what's this absolute rubbish about written music being an anathema to the 'folk process'? You think 'cos some one writes a melody down it'll never be improvised upon, nor evolve in any way??? Puh-lease...

Really guys, get over the whole written music thing. It's a tool and like any other, works extremely well for those who learn to use it properly. If you don't wanna use it, fine, but don't turn not using written music into an idealistic 'folk banner' to march behind. Sheesh...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

THEIR OWN culture

Here's the universal cultural formula, WAV: Culture = What Folks Do.

Its the doing of it that makes it their own, rather than any nationalistic provenance which can always be proven to be at best spurious, at worst specious.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

I thought KT Tunstall and Westlife perform in the pop style, which is one of the American genres. This is not to say I've never enjoyed any American pop - Avril Lavigne, e.g., is a great American singer, in my opinion.
On my computer, I had trouble with your first site, Carol, but like your other one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

She's Canadian, when you obviously mean from the USA.
Here are some things supposedly traditionally English:
Morris dances- Of Spanish origin, possibly from North Africa too.
Tennis- Developement of a French game.
Recorders- The earliest examples were discovered along the Northern Seaboard and the Baltics, including Poland. The earliest image of one comes from the Balkans. Most of the innovations in it's developement were carried out by the French, most of the makers were German. Most of the music was italianate, even when composed by Englishmen!! They, obviously, were not practising their own culture.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:29 PM

Er, excuse me WAV. Why do you consider anything that could be classified as 'pop music' to be american and not a product of the culture in this (British Isles) country even if that's where the artists influences are from? It's vastly over simplistic to equate any one single country with genres this way. Are you going to attempt to say that there are no european influences in american folk music???

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM

What browser was being used then the Kevan Tolley site was opened?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

This particular rant would be appropriate on any one of a number of threads here on Mudcat, but since the subject has come up, this is as good a place as any.

< rant >

lady penelope is exactly right about the "written music versus learning by ear" thing. But, of course, it's not "versus," it's "plus." Any aspiring musician who either refuses or can't be bothered to learn to read music is intentionally handicapping himself or herself. You limit yourself to having to learn songs either from other people (often used as a justification by folkies because, "after all, folk music is supposed to be orally/aurally transmitted"—for urban-born singers who didn't grow up in the oral tradition, when did that become Holy Writ!??), or from recordings of other singers. It was this limitation that prompted me to learn to read music—because I had a whole book case full of song books (Sandburg, Lomax, Sharp, et al) that were useful to me only if I had heard the song before and already knew the tune. Learning to read music freed me from that narrow restriction and opened the whole field to me.

And the misconception that learning a song from written music means that you are limited to singing it only the way it is written is almost too dumb to bother refuting. But here goes:   listen to a number of actors, say Lawrence Olivier, John Gielgud, Derek Jacoby, do Hamlet's soliloquy (learned from a book or script). Same words, same content—but quite different in pace and emphasis. Or operatic tenors, say Placido Domingo, Ferrucio Tagliavini, Jussi Bjorling sing "Che Gelida Manina" from La Boheme (learned from an operatic score). Quite individual in style and approach. They all "dink around" with note-values, pace, and general approach. Each singer or actor puts his or her own individual stamp on the work.

I don't know how many folkies I've heard who, when they've learned a song from a Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez record, do their damnedest to sing it exactly the way Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez recorded it.

The written music is a starting point and a learning aid. It is not a set of handcuffs. Unless you make it so!

Learning to read music is not that difficult, once you get over your prejudices and misconceptions. And it is an extremely valuable tool for any musician.

####

And as to the matter of "Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane. . . ." and what follows, displays substantial ignorance about what it takes to be a performing musician.

Segovia was able to command some pretty high fees for his concerts. So, by the hour, his pay seems to be "ridiculous and inhumane" compared to the singer of folk songs who performs mainly as a hobby and picks up the occasional tenner for doing a gig. But Segovia practiced six hours a day. Every day. Year after year, for every year that he performed. And this was time that he didn't get paid for.

How many singers of folk songs do you know who practice six hours a day, every day?

Can you imagine the amount of money that Van Cliburn (or his parents) spent on piano lessons as he was growing up? He also put in many hours a day at the keyboard. Hours for which there was no pay.

If you total up the amount of money spent on lessons, often the tuition paid and time spend in music schools and conservatories, and the number of hours that these musicians put in to eventually get those "ridiculous and inhumane" fees—and then, divide that into what they earn—earn—you may be very surprised to find out how small their "hourly wage" is, after expenses!!

And I'm not talking about only classical musicians here. Bruce Springsteen and the band he works with start rehearsals—yes, rehearsals— regularly, at nine o'clock in the morning. The Greatful Dead? Same sort of "woodshed" time put in. Kenny Rogers and the First Edition? Almost all of the more successful, highly paid performers in most fields put in the time and the work.

". . . talent, motivation, and dedication. . . ."

So, unless you have the motivation and the dedication, and are willing to invest the time, the money, and the energy, then don't bitch about the "ridiculous and inhumane" pay that these artists get.

If you pick up the guitar (or whatever) three or four times a week and practice for forty-five minutes, and learn a new song (from a record) and practice it for an hour or two before you can sing it without goofing it up, just count yourself damned lucky if someone is willing to toss a couple of quarters into your hat to hear you sing it.

< /rant >

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM

Love your rant Don.

1) Agree with you about 'learning the dots' totally. I knew everything before I went to University...

2) Rate of Pay. One of the reasons I lost interest in going to folk clubs was the expressed lack of interest by others in getting together 'for rehearsal'. "Ya don't HAVE to think, Ya gotta just open up yer arse and let the music fall out".... :-P (and that's usually just the sort of result ya get!) :-)

And I have noticed that many 'self taught folkies' just don't get what 'rehearsal' IS. Perhaps I have been 'spoiled' by my Classical Music Upbringing (like only eating Beluga Caviare, perhaps!). In which case I thank my lucky stars that I WAS 'spoiled'!!!

'Rehearsal' is not just playng the notes over again and again without change in tempo or expression as fast as you can till the other musos run screaming from the room. (Hmmm, that also sounds like many 'sessions' I have been to!)

'Rehearsal' involves thought. If you don't understand that, I'm not going to bother wasting my time explaining that. And it involves fear, excitement, discovery, boredom, etc.

When I had been taking piano lessons for a couple of years, and still in single digits, I began to think that I was pretty hot shit. "Hey Dad, look how fast I can play" I said.

My Dad stopped what he was doing, said to Mum, "This is very important", got out his violin, tuned it (and without any other warmup) took his bow, placed it on a string at the frog, and pulled a VERY SLOW bow, in perfect tune, in perfect pitch, no waver or squawk, that took what seemed like AGES (several minutes)!

"Son", he said, "Any ignorant Fool can play loud and fast, but to play slow and soft and well takes talent, training and practice". I have never forgot that. Pity that most I stumble across who think they are 'hot shit musos' don't seem to have been 'spoiled' like me.


"I don't know how many folkies I've heard who, when they've learned a song from a Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez record, do their damnedest to sing it exactly the way Ewan MacColl or Joan Baez recorded it."

This is a substantial victory for the owners of 'The Recording Industry' - hollow but overwhelming.


"Almost all of the more successful, highly paid performers in most fields put in the time and the work."

Which sadly means that most of us are 'Just Amateurs'... :-)


"I used to be good once, but now I'm out of practice!"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

I've been involved a couple of times with attempts to put "folk groups" together, and the stumbling block has always been an unwillingness for one or more (usually more) to rehearse sufficiently, if at all!

We'd manage to get through a song once without somebody screwing up (that's just the beginning of rehearsing), then a couple of people would start to pack up their instruments and say, "That sounded great! Okay, let's go grab a beer!" Or the attempt when one person, a fairly well-known singer in the area at the time, never bothered to show up for rehearsals. The implication was "You folks need the practice. But I'm a pro, and I don't." Or the times I showed up at a potential singing partner's apartment ready to practice, and her roommate tells me, "Oh, she's not here. She went skiing this afternoon."

That's why I work solo.

About the only times I've been able to work with someone else successfully was when our performances consisted mainly of swapping solos with a little banter between, interspersed with occasional duets. Because we were not always able to get together as often as we needed to, this sort of programming did seem to work pretty well.

I really have to hand it to groups that actually manage to get it off the ground. First, you have to want to get together, then you have to be able to get together, then when and if you do get together, you have to be willing to work until you get it to the point where you're all satisfied with what you've accomplished and people are willing to pay to hear you sing.

And when it comes to individual performances, if there is a lack of consistent practice, it really shows!

Don Firth

P. S. Of course, I'm talking performing professionally here. If I person just wants to sing and play for fun, then you have to decide how far you want to take it. Just sing in your own bedroom, sing for your family, sing at parties with a few friends, or post stuff on MySpace or YouTube? Great! But still, if you're going to ask that other folks listen to you, you want to do it well enough so they don't sit there writhing and flinching, right?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

You're Evil Don.... :-)

I like you.... :-P

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM

Thanks, Robin! It's nice to be appreciated.

Yeah, some folks find these reality sandwiches kind of bitter-tasting. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:53 AM

What, like cucumber sandwiches?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:01 AM

Here is an extract from a fun novel, an icon of Englishness, which, coincidentally, was written by a foreigner. D-d Hungarians.....

"It do seem more like April than September, don't it?" continued Mr. Hempseed, dolefully, as a shower of raindrops fell with a sizzle upon the fire.

"Aye! that it do," assented the worth host, "but then what can you `xpect, Mr. `Empseed, I says, with sich a government as we've got?"

Mr. Hempseed shook his head with an infinity of wisdom, tempered by deeply-rooted mistrust of the British climateand the British Government.

"I don't `xpect nothing, Mr. Jellyband," he said. "Pore folks like us is of no account up there in Lunnon, I knows that, and it's not often as I do complain. But when it comes to sich wet weather in September, and all me fruit a-rottin' and a-dying' like the `Guptian mother's first born, and doin' no more good than they did, pore dears, save a lot more Jews, pedlars and sich, with their oranges and sich like foreign ungodly fruit, which nobody'd buy if English apples and pears was nicely swelled. As the Scriptures say--"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:12 AM

Yeah, some folks find these reality sandwiches kind of bitter-tasting

With respect, Don, we don't all share your particular reality, which, judging from your rant, and the above statement, is a very different reality to my own. Your sandwiches are only bitter tasting in respect of the narrow-minded absolutism they embody; hard won no doubt, but I've always found that folk music is best served by non-musicians, certainly non-musos, for whom professionalism is a complete anathema.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 07:22 AM

Carol - Internet Explorer 6.
Don - I read all with interest and agree with some of what you said, but standby what I said: there are taut tushed mimers who have made a fortune, whilst many genuine musicians have struggled to make ends meet, from the music industry; and, accordingly (pardon the pun), if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. Have you read much John "business is glorified theft" Steinbeck? For a better way for humanity, I refer you to my snippet on REGULATIONISM above &/or my life's work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:26 AM

WAV, I looked at your life's work and was reminded by your poem on Moroccan tea about another bit of English culture that began elsewhere.
Tea drinking. A Muslim/Turkish tradition!!!!!! So, were all those tea-sippers not practising THEIR OWN CULTURE?
Oh well, back to oranges and such like foreign ungodly fruit, which nobody would buy if English apples and pears were nicely swelled.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 08:33 AM

Ah - what I was saying about websites - KISS...

From Plenty of bagging for grocery website

The new GROCERYchoice website keeps a Labor election promise to provide consumers with more information about grocery prices. But it has provoked a HEROC complaint from a disabled guy that he can't read it or otherwise access it - in contravention of the Govt guidleines about disability accessibility to Govt websites! :-)

It's bloated full of fancy tricks and cute graphics, and I even broke it looking up something simple - so I sent in a complaint direct to the ACCC too! :-)

KISS...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM

First off, a slight correction to mandotim-KT Tunstall is Scottish.

Ok, I'm going to say this again for WAV's benefit because when he says, "As a multiculturalist, I admire much more folks from around the world who are good at THEIR OWN culture," he gets me going, and not in a good way. On another thread of WAV's creation, I wrote this,

"On your website too I saw something about World Music-"World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other. You do realize that word, unfused is a real difficult one to use in context of music. West African music does not follow a colonialism rule. You can say someone is from Guinea-Bissau, or Mali, or Senegal, but the music itself comes from an ancient source that predates those names for countries we now know. Thus someone like Toumani Diabate's lineage of griots comes from the area we now know to be Mali, but was not Mali until 1960, before he was even born. The same can be said in Europe. Ever hear regional European music WAV? Do you realize that there has been so much polinization in European music that you can have someone from regions of France singing in Italian, or someone from Sardinia singing in Catalan? See? unfused doesn't work when you have music that by a map says it belongs in one country, while culturally, actually belongs in another. So your stated belief that different nationalities should present their own native, unfused music to each other, is in actuality, a deluded belief that music stops at border checkpoints, even the ones that didn't exist until the 20th century."

I have also asked you repeatedly, on several threads now, to clarify when you say you admire folks doing music from their own culture. Does that mean that the old English, Scots, and Irish ballads that are found, and sung to this day in places like Kentucky, or Newfoundland should be abandoned? Because following your rules, one can say that those folk who do sing those songs, are abandoning the native culture of their own country. That's not what I think, I find it fascinating that, as for example Richard Thompson saying that an old ballad, King Henry, was found pretty much intact in rural Kentucky. So you have Americans singing about a tribute due to the king of France, and tennis balls, and all sorts of strange things that are in the original variants of the song.

I will also say that, in its most simplest explanation, Rock is an American form. Again, I say simple, because we know its roots go far deeper than that, if one wants to go there. But will you deny the effect rock can have at this point on all cultures? Case in point is Runrig. Using an American form, they have energized and in some way, revitalized Scottish Gaelic, in their 30 + years. Will you honestly stand here and tell me that there is something wrong with that, because they are using an "american" form? Rory Macdonald, and at the time Donnie Munro (Bruce Guthro actually has a lilt, but its not quite the same) have not, nor ever will be considered Americans in their singing style, they are Scots through and through. So would you dismiss them, and all they have accomplished because they are singing songs about their own culture and history and language (including singing in that language)simply because they use an American form to express it by?

Ponder this if you will please WAV. Please don't answer with a link to your website. I HAVE been on it, I have read most of it. I seek to understand, and I seek to debate your points, not be redirected to the source of the problem.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

Comment:
I despise mime but even I know that it takes years of study to become one of the few who "make Millions". I have the same difficulty with some blues, some jazz, and some classical music - doesn't make it bad. Doesn't mean that the artists haven't earned their keep nor does it mean that someone, whose craft I prefer, deserves it more than they do.

Or have I misunderstood?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

Some (and most who play at a live no-miming events like Glastonbury) in pop ARE genuine musicians, Sinsull, but anyone who has ever tuned into one of those pop-chart type shows would know that others are clearly not - yet they may have made a quick fortune while other genuine musicians have struggled.
I'd rather Runrig perform their Scottish lyrics that you mention, IE, in a Scottish, rather than American, form, frankly. And, if both can sound good, why not chose the form from one's own neck-of-the-woods and, thereby, help keep our world nice and multicultural. This is nothing new, of course - many reading this will know as well or better than I the perform-your-own policies of 50s and 60s folk-clubs here.
And, to Volgadon, fair-trade of fruit, etc., is very much a part of the WAV way. So, on that one, she's apples, as they may still say in Aus.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

WAV, what part of England are you originally from?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

It's in my opening blank verse poem, Volgadon, but, briefly, I was born in Manchester - actually the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

Volgadon,

WAV is originally from Manchester, I think.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM

Yet again WAV, you seemingly will not, or cannot answer what are important questions or comments to your life's work. Do you believe that music has border checkpoints, that musical styles, and instrumentation, and subject matter are limited to the modern boundaries in which we now live? Do you believe that multiculturism is best achieved by imposing the harshest of limitations on something meant to be as universally enjoyed as music? Do you believe that, given the choice between the death of culture and language of this modern age versus the (in your view) notion of purity is really a good option? Do you believe that there has been no cross-pollinization in music up to now, that it is only this beast that we generically call "Rock" that has caused the fusion in music that you so dislike?

You also entirely missed my point about Runrig. What truely makes the Scottish form WAV? Highland or lowland? Bagpipes? Accordion? Jimmy Shand? Do you know Runrig WAV? Ok, I'm a fan, others may not be, but they are a good example for this discussion. They were certainly not the first to deliberately write songs in Scottish Gaelic (I believe that was Ossian?), but what they have helped to do is bring new life to a language that was struggling. You'd rather complain about how puristic notions make a nice multicultural world, rather than saying how awesome it is that a 15 year old kid is singing along to a Gaelic song, and maybe, just maybe-learning some of the language. Your notions of multiculturism are flawed because you impose your own sets of standards and limitations on things that I don't think you fully grasp. You can quote me all the countries you have visited, and all your Aboriginal and Native American friends on your myspace page, but that doesn't matter to me. What matters is that music and culture and language grow, day by day, year by year. Linguistically, I'm sure you have words in your vocabulary that literally did not exist as little as 10 years ago. Someone, somewhere makes up a word, it enters common usage, and next thing you know, it gets put in the dictionary as an accepted part of our language. Do you not think that happens with music WAV? Do you not think because music does not stand still, but rather, progresses, that there are bound to be changes and evolution in musical form, instrumentation, rhythm, recording, presentation and so on?
Multiculturism is alive and well, just not in the way that YOU PERSONALLY wish it to go. I think we'll get along fine though. I've got history on my side for that one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Then why do you sing songs that aren't from Manchester???

"Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national. Our forebears were loyal to this when

they formed the English Folk Dance and Song Society, as have been contemporary Scots

by forming a Degree in Scottish Traditional Music. Further, I'm told several of our earliest

folk-clubs strongly encouraged participants to select from their own culture"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM

"Narrow-minded absolutism!???" Well, that's pretty harsh! In what way is what I have posted "narrow-minded absolutism?" Please explain.

Insane Beard, apparently you skipped my footnote above where I said that I'm speaking specifically about those who aspire to be professional musicians. And that's regardless of whether they perform folk music, opera, classical, jazz, or whatever. If you sing strictly for your own enjoyment or the enjoyment of friends and family, with no interest in singing gigs (in other words, a "real folk singer"), that's a whole different thing.

If you are expecting people to come to hear you perform, and you are charging them money to do so, you owe it to them to give them their money's worth. Which means that you know your material and that you present it well. You may regard yourself as a "folk singer," but in this situation, you are an entertainer (AND if you can slip them a little education and authenticity at the same time, that's much to the good!).

As to whether folk music is best served by amateurs, and that professionalism is an anathema to it, is most debatable indeed. A professional, after all, is someone who receives sufficient payment for what he or she does to make a living at it. It is generally through professional singers of folk songs that interest in folk music is spread.

I know a fair number of people who were actually turned off to folk music when their introduction consisted of hearing some field recordings—or live performances or recordings by some of the more 'rough-and-ready" singers. But later, upon hearing some of the same songs sung by professional singers, or singers who, even if not pursuing singing careers, might be considered "professional quality," they became actively interested themselves. With this as an introduction, they later went on to listen to field records and rougher-edged singers with new ears.

The following are two quotes from singers of folk songs that I think might be enlightening and edifying:

One is from Rolf Cahn, a singer from whom, in just a few brief encounters, I learned a great deal back in the late 1950s.

The most ticklish question still results from that awful word "Folk Music", which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to "Western Pop" music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.

Most of us agree in feeling as to our general boundaries, but more and more we search for our own particular contributions as musicians within these variegated provinces. There doesn't seem to be much point in imitating-what, after all, is the point of doing Little Moses exactly like the Carter Family? Yet it seems vital to convey the massive, punching instrumentals and the tense driving, almost hypnotic voice of the Carter Family performances.

One the one hand, there is the danger of becoming a musical stamp collector; on the other, the equal danger of leaving behind the language, texture, and rhythm that made the music worthy of our devotion in the first place. So we have arrived at a point where in each case we try to determine those elements which make a particular piece of music meaningful to us, and to build the performance through these elements. By continuing to learn everything possible of the art form-techniques, textures, rhythms, cultural implications and conventions, we hope to mature constantly in our individual understanding and creativity in this music.

And the other is from Richard Dyer-Bennet (granted that the classically trained Dyer-Bennet is not everyone's cup of tea, nevertheless, what he says below is most certainly true).

The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect.

Amen.

By the way, there is a term that I've encountered here on Mudcat only within the past few months, and it seems to be used mostly by British or Australians. The term is "muso." I couldn't find it in any dictionary, so I tried to chase it down on the internet, the best I could come up with is "The term 'Muso' is slang commonly used in Australia and England. It refers to a young musician."

The way I see it used here on Mudcat, it seems to be used as a pejorative. What, exactly, do people mean when they use this term?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:15 AM

I'm a 'recycled muso' Don.
To Quote from my thread (oh dear, now he's at it too!)

"A Recycled Muso is a person who has already learnt to play one Musical Instrument, and is starting to learn another."

I never saw the word as pejorative, not sure that other Aussies intend it to be pejorative either. It's a fairly common sort of Aussie slang where we shorten words like 'musician' to muso'.

"If you are expecting people to come to hear you perform, and you are charging them money to do so, you owe it to them to give them their money's worth. Which means that you know your material and that you present it well."
"A professional, after all, is someone who receives sufficient payment for what he or she does to make a living at it"

Having spent some considerable time working in Amateur Theatre, I can assure you that many such unpaid people DO have a very "Professional" Attitude. That is, they 'owe it to their audience to give them their money's worth. Which means that they know their material and that they present it well.' If you want REAL AMATEURS in theatre, I suggest you look up Mr Green's "The Art of Coarse Acting" to gain an understanding of the difference. I have been so bold as to previously suggest that WAV is truly "A Coarse Folk Singer".

QUOTE
A coarse actor is "one who can remember his lines, but not the order in which they come. One who performs . . . amid lethal props. The Coarse Actor's aim is to upstage the rest of the cast. His hope is to be dead by Act Two so that he can spend the rest of his time in the bar. His problems? Everyone else connected with the production." (Michael Green)
UNQUOTE

You can make your own translation...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:04 AM

Do these sound anything but Russian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKdYLvt1wsY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcwcayA_PW0&feature=related
His influences are from all over, including India and even Richard Thompson and Steeleye!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:06 AM

Do these sound anything but Israeli?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0tnSgv-EE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbNj0DleE_I

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM

Do these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFlVBOPncmc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gwRmyEZxI

Sorry for the numerous posts, Mudcat isn't letting me put them all in one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

What about these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGdlP1xuy40&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4LUZPculgQ&feature=related

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

Here is a blatant example of an Israeli not practising his own culture, but having a go at multi-culturalism. The horrors! It's a stupendous track. His then-current girlfriend was Irish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnA6oKC6is

Here is one that has a few Irish pop-ish numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAfD0Jj6dwQ

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:09 AM

Last one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yTQRlZTUTM&feature=related

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM

To FT - in agreement with what you say of amateur theatre, in Newcastle upon Tyne we have an amatear People's Theatre, whose quality is excellent, I think. However, call me a coarse folkie if you will, but I'm still scratching my head over your "coarse actors" definition..?!
To IE - as you may have noticed, in China they now have rap, rock and pop groups, which are becoming more-and-more popular among youngsters who may otherwise be performing their own culture; although, thankfully, at the opening ceremony, we did get a good taste of traditional Chinese culture - and I do hope and pray for plenty of our own culture in London; but, going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony, I do worry about this.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

and I do hope and pray for plenty of our own culture in London

Out of genuine curiosity, Wav, what would you present by way of a taste of English culture?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

This question is open to all by the way - to compile your own Taste of English Culture...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM

That's no answer WAV. You may be right about what gets presented at the 2012 opening ceremony, but once again, you have diverted my questions into another topic. My points had nothing to do with the Olympics. If you're so concerned why don't you join the organizing committee? I probably asked you about 10 perfectly reasonable questions yesterday, it would be nice if you could answer at least one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:53 PM

WAV, you do realise that Chinese opera superceded traditional music?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM

going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony

Manchester is a very pop city, WAV, giving us some of the finest & uniquely English popular music of all time; The Smiths, The Fall, Joy Division, New Order, Oasis, Freddy & the Dreamers, Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, The Hollies et al. See Here for a full list...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

Morris Dancing to an English concertina; an unaccompanied version of Country Life and/or the shanty Homeward Bound, to which everyone in the stadium would be given the words to the chorus/refrain; mass clog dancing to a penny whistle, a coalliery brass band playing English Country Gardens, whilst actors picnic in some kind of creation of a cottage garden, perhaps also containing a whopping Green Man; English actors reciting some of our many fine poets and playwrights; a mass of costumed folk forming a huge Constable - The Haywain, maybe...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:18 PM

"going by Manchester's very pop Commonwealth Games opening ceremony" (me).

Manchester is a very pop city, WAV, giving us some of the finest & uniquely English popular music of all time; The Smiths, The Fall, Joy Division, New Order, Oasis, Freddy & the Dreamers, Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, The Hollies et al. See Here for a full list...(IB)...frankly, as with Ewan MacColl, I, from Manchester way, would rather ramble; and pop derived from AMERICAN religious music - The Beatles even tried talking in American accents! God help us.
To IE: I listen to quite a lot of Scottish Gaelic radio, and it's mostly authentic unaccompanied singing but also with Scottish pipes, harps, etc. - the only thing I don't like is the Scottish Gaelic tradition of mimicking Amerindian/native American chants and drums.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

Why not Stubbs? I know who could play what part.....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

Here's a Whopping Green Man as found in the Scarecrow Festival in the village of Wray, Lancashire, back in May. Methinks he's a very modern take on the traditional Green Man of British folk custom, but handsomely impressive nevertheless. I would have thought with you being of Mancunian origin you would have went for Lowry rather than Constable...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:27 PM

To IE: I listen to quite a lot of Scottish Gaelic radio, and it's mostly authentic unaccompanied singing but also with Scottish pipes, harps, etc. - the only thing I don't like is the Scottish Gaelic tradition of mimicking Amerindian/native American chants and drums.

Oh lord, where do I even start with this one?!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

The Beatles even tried talking in American accents

As does Eric Burdon but I still reckon he's one of the finest blues singers ever, and a credit to his native Tyneside.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

Can you give me a specific example of the Scottish Gaelic tradiion of mimicking Amerindian chants and drums?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

By far not my favourite band, but this track always seemed very Noel Coward-ish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMz-wi50ACU
It's probably worth pointing out that he (Coward) emulated or borrowed from American music.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

One wonders what WAV would think of the Armenian Navy Band.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:12 PM

IE - the Gaels do mimick Amerindian chants and drums, I promise. It derives partly from an empathy over loss of lands, etc., but, still, I don't like it - however, as I say, most of what I hear on Gaelic radio, via satellite, is very enjoyable indeed.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Well... as I have tried pointing out to him, how does he feel about music that comes from a wide diaspora of shared culture, not ethnicity? Sephardic and Ladino music for one. Virtually all throughout Europe you have tradition and language from the past that linger on hundreds of years later. Thus a singer like the wonderful Elena Ledda from Sardinia sings much material in Catalan.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

Arto Tuncboyaciyan of the aforementioned Armenian Navy Band is an interesting case. An Armenian from Turkey, he plays in a wide variety of styles, from traditional, to Jazz, to Mediterranean, to rock, but he plays it as an Armenian. He isn't a slave to music, especially to a notion of this is folk music because this is supposedly how it was played since the days of blessed St Mesrop and time immemorial, but he makes whatever he plays Armenian. WAV, if you were to try and tell an Armenian that this music isn't real Armenian, but a borrowing of other cultures, they would laugh in your face.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 07:07 PM

Some glories of English music.

A couple of thoughts - well, three. First, the form of WAV's observations is unappealing; they seem to consist of an endless list of things people shouldn't do and people who should stop doing them. Word to the wise: if you don't like Runrig/the Beatles/the Fall, try not listening to them. More to the point, don't talk about them - talk about the musicians you do like, if there are any.

Second, the content of what WAV has to say isn't just peevish and negative; I think it's also profoundly unhistorical. I love the music that was made in England (and Scotland, and Ireland) a hundred and more years ago, but that country isn't there any more. As well as a land of ploughboys and milkmaids, England was the heart of vast trading network and a global empire. Those things can't be wished away, and nor can their consequences - which include a high degree of multicultural cross-pollination (see links above). To say that English culture in 2008 is clog-dancing and Constable isn't quaint or eccentric, it's just false.

Third, who cares what WAV thinks anyway? Why do we keep coming back to play whack-a-mole with him?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM

Having taken a few anthropology courses when I was in school, I am a bit confused as to just what "English culture" is.

What is generally regarded as the first piece of English literature is an epic poem, Beowulf, author unknown. Written in Old English, but the hero is a Dane and most of the action takes place in what is now Denmark and Sweden. I've heard the speculation that it may have been written originally in Danish (or Old Norse) and someone translated it into Old English. So the first work of English literature may not be English at all.

Considering that we--even WAV--can all be traced back (via mitochondrial DNA) to an African woman some 200,000 years ago, no matter how you slice it, Britain is a land of immigrants. Very little is known about the first peoples to populate the British Isles. Were these the builders of stone circles, or did they come later? Then came the Celts from the European continent. Then came the Angles. And the Saxons. The raids of the Norsemen on the coasts of England, and even the occasional community of Vikings quite probably led to a lot of Nordic genes seeding the English population of the time. Then, they came again, but this time the spoke French, having established themselves in the north of France:   the Normans.

Was it, perhaps, a bucolic scene of a shepherd and a milkmaid romping in verdant fields, complete with a string orchestra playing "Greensleeves" in the background, that constituted a local version of Garden of Eden, and pure English culture can be traced back to this event?

So—as a mere bumpkin who lives over here in the Colonies, I'm curious to know what constitutes pure, unadulterated English culture?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 08:16 PM

By the way, that was 100.

(Life is full of little triumphs!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:24 AM

To PR! - you have ignored HERITAGE in your rant - unlike, as I say, the Chinese yesterda, thank goodness.
And to Don - England is (or was until about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began) an olde olde blend of, mostly, European cultures - with a HERITAGE that we should be a lot more (Chinese-like) proud of.

Now, being Saturday and having questioned capitalism during the last week, time for...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 105 of 230: GLOBAL REGULATIONISM

No income-scale would be unjust -
    It's a matter of degree;
And, to have less inequality,
    Regulations are a must.

For, in Millennium's status quo,
    The pay-gaps for human work,
And what's gotten simply as a perk,
    ARE wrong - inhumanely so.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:19 AM

To PR! - you have ignored HERITAGE in your rant

With all respect, that wasn't a rant and it didn't ignore heritage. My second point was all about what our social and cultural heritage - in England, in 2008 - actually is.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

WAV go look at the books again. Mass immigration to the British Isles started thousands of years ago. The 1950's were merely one of the later waves...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

About 50 years ago, LP, immigrants mad up less than half a percent of the population here, and I stand by what I said above -
"England is (or was until about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began) an olde olde blend of, mostly, European cultures - with a HERITAGE that we should be a lot more (Chinese-like) proud of."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM

And some of those European cultures were more foreign to each other than even, say, West Africans and Poles.
If you don't believe me, read up on the Hugeonots in England.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:47 PM

I just tuned in to observe the latest developments, noted WAV's response to my query regarding the nature of English culture, and was rather astonished to learn from WAV that, until quite recently, the English came from nowhere else and have always sprung out of good English soil, spontaneously, not unlike mushrooms!

Amazing!!

And that "mass migrations" didn't occur until just fifty years ago!

Well, now. . . .

I note that lady penelope pounced on this well before me.

Really, WAV! I believe you claimed on some post awhile back, in an attempt to lend weight to some of your bizarre assertions, that you have diplomas, certificates, awards, knighthoods, and Nobel Prizes in anthropology.

Excuse me if I tend to have serious doubts about your claimed credentials.

It's patently obvious that your knowledge of anthropology--not to mention your knowledge of history, well known by any school child with sufficient alertness to stay awake in classes--is more than just a little deficient.

Either that, or you have a few wires seriously crossed!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM

To out-of-tune Don: it's as if you've read another thread before posting - how could you have so misunderstood my "olde olde blend of mostly European cultures"? That surely is a far cry from saying your "sprung out of good old English soil"!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

I fully understand what you are saying, WAV.

Yours is the veiled view of the person who dreams of some former but non-existent "Golden Age," in your case, perhaps the era of Jane Austen, Charles Dickens, et al.

I think the nature of your problem has more to do with all those Pakistanis. Dark skinned taxi drivers who speak with accents. The reek of curry around those take-out restaurants. All that vindaloo. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

About 50 years ago, LP, immigrants mad up less than half a percent of the population here, and I stand by what I said above -
"England is (or was until about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began) an olde olde blend of, mostly, European cultures - with a HERITAGE that we should be a lot more (Chinese-like) proud of."

These two statements are mutually contradictory.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

Does anyone dispute the existence of a French culture? Or a Scottish culture? Or a Hawaiian Culture? Are these cultures non-existent because they have been influenced by people and cultures that originated elsewhere at some point in the past?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

It definitely is like that on this island, Carol - it's at least acceptable to be a Welsh nationalist in Wales, or a Scottish nationalist in Scotland, but certainly NOT an English nationalist in England (the small percentage of nationalistic folks in England tend, rather, to support British Nationalism; which leads me back to Don and another misunderstanding - I hate the imperialism of the Victorian era, and that's why I like the idea of Nationalism with eco-tourism and fair-trade, via a stronger UN, rather than capitalist immigration and imperialism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

If it seems to you that I misunderstand you, WAV, then that might actually be the case. You keep emitting mixed messages, often contradicting things that you have posted before.

It's like trying to follow a butterfly with the hiccups

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Nothing wrong with being an English nationalist. It is the blinkered, twisted view of a pure ethnic history that we challenge. Just as I think that 'Celtic' cultures owe as much to England as they do to some sort of pan-celtism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

nationalism of any sort does not solve economic problems.
an understanding of the capitalist system,is important in trying to solve the inequalities of society.
The problem with nationalism,is that it has been used, in the past,and probably will be used again in the future,to distract people from the real causes of their economic problems,which is the system.
Being proud of a musical heritage is different,but one needs to understand the musical heritage,and understand that no man is an island unto himself,and that all musical heritages have had outside infleunces,there is no such thing as a pure English musical heritage,any more than there is a pure Irish musical heritage,[DonegalHighlands and Scottish influence spring to mind] the four nations are musically intertwined,and have influenced each other.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

THat little Scotch song Barbary Ellen!!!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM

"nationalism of any sort does not solve economic problems." (CB)...with fair-trade it would.
"THat little Scotch song Barbary Ellen!!!!!" (Volgadon)...the English version is among my among my repertoire.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:01 PM

I hate the imperialism of the Victorian era

Maybe you do, but it made the England you're living in now. You seem to imagine that by bellowing 'Authentic! Heritage! European!' loudly enough you can erase the last 200 years of history - it doesn't work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:02 PM

So, you admit to singing a song of Scottish origins? WHERE IS YOUR CONSISTENCY?????????????????????????????????????

HOW would nationalism with fair-trade solve problems? Please expand, WITHOUT reffering to your websites.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: lady penelope
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 04:25 PM

I'm sorry, I just don't understand where you are coming from WAV. You do a lot of shouting about English culture & heritage, but refuse to aknowledge how England came about in the first place. You seem to have this vision of England being a frozen bubble in time, made up of the bits you like, taken from history, some where vaguely between 1100 CE to 1930 CE.

I was born and brought up in London. I've spent all my life in England and I dearly love the place. But the England and the culture I grew up in appears wildly different to the english culture you keep harping on about. More to the point, you keep trying to tell me what is and what is not my culture.

Whilst I appreciate that you wish to promote parts of my culture that have dwindled, you do it in a blinkered and frankly offensive way. I see little difference between your denial of the evolution that brought England to it's path through history and that of what used to be called the National Front, who also seemed to think that at some point there was a race of Englishmen and a specific culture that is English and that nothing should be allowed to detract from or change this artificial construct.

Make no mistake, I am no apologist for being English, I do think that people should be proud to be English and I don't see why it should be the 'politically correct' bone of contention that it has become. But whilst I defend the right to be English with pride, I see no reason to allow someone with such a narrow viewpoint dictate to me what it means to be English.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 04:35 AM

I got the English version of Barbara Allen from Dig. Trad., Volgadon, which also says: "The English and Scottish both claim the original ballad in different versions"; and I like such DIFFERENCES, as I love our world being multicultural, and I wish for it to remain so.
It wasn't 1930, LP - as I say, in the 1950s less than half a percent of our population were immigrants, and, whether or not we like it, it's silly to deny the mass immigration and rapid changes since then.
And, as with Don, above, you're temporarily out-of-tune with your "frozen bubble in time" - that surely, also, is a far cry from my "olde olde blend of mostly European cultures" (above). But what I keep stressing is, given all the conquest and immigration that has occured around the world, the best FROM NOW ON is nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN - instead of yet more conquest and capitalist/economic immigration/emigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 04:40 AM

But the earliest refference is Pepys, who calls it a Scottish song. Does that mean that Englishmen who sang it weren't practising their own culture? Consistency, please. What is the difference between that and performing an American song?

What do you think about Noel Coward, is his music English?

PLEASE EXPLAIN in more detail what you mean by nationalism with fair-trade. Who knows, if it's a good idea, we might support it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Dave (Bridge)
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

Why do people keep falling into this trap and prolonging a senseless argument with someone who will not listen

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

"Why do people keep falling into this trap and prolonging a senseless argument with someone who will not listen"...4 technical certificates, a BA degree in humanities (majoring in anthropology with distinctions), shoestring travel through about 40 countries, A-grade junior football and tennis, etc...how on earth could someone achieve that without listening to others, Dave?
I Just LISTENED to a heavily Americanised "Songs of Praise" (BBC) and was disgusted, frankly.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

Listening to others means having discourse WAV, and answering questions, not endless touting of ones "academic" credentials. Have YOU ever seen anyone else on here mention their credentials? Think about it. Even bearing in mind your blessed credentials, you obviously didn't learn debate, and keeping the self promotion to a minimum.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

Yes, IE - others here have IN THEIR DEFENCE against false criticism such as "a senseless argument with someone who will not listen." (DB).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Sorry WAV, I thought someone with 4 technical certificates, a BA degree in humanities (majoring in anthropology with distinctions), shoestring travel through about 40 countries, A-grade junior football and tennis, would know how to spell defence and assylum properly. (defense and asylum)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

It's defenCe, IE, and for anyone who missed the American-spelling debate on an earlier thread...

Poem 149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

WAV, why didn't you answer my recent questions, such as outlining your plan for nationalism with free trade?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 01:56 PM

WAV, all the American spelling conventions can be traced to English sources.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

Fair, NOT "free", trade - via UN REGULATIONS, Volgadon..."Liberty, as sufeit, is the father of much fast," (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).
And, by the way, it's practiSe here and practiCe in the USA!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:10 PM

sorry, fair, but please do elaborate, and both both practiCe and practiSe appear in English records of the 18th century.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:15 PM

practice=noun; practise=verb

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

Maybe the UN can commission you to produce the Volgadon Standard English Dictionary; as well as replac(it's not S is it?!)ing the free global market economy with a regulated one, such that we humans still have the incentive of an economic-ladder to climb - but without the ridiculous inhumane inequality that capitalism produces.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

But where does nationalism fit in?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

". . . you're temporarily out-of-tune with your 'frozen bubble in time'. . . ."

As to lady penelope and me fitting that characterization, I think it's pretty obvious to all who it really fits.

WAV, I don't know what you mean by eco-travel (yes, I do know what eco-travel is) and fair-trade through whatever means. I have been a supporter of the United Nations from its very inception, and my support is not just lip-service. I've lent my talents and abilities to the United Nations on a number of occasions. But I also see the formation of the European Union as a step forward in attempting to civilize the Planet Earth. I, too, am opposed to the policies of some nations (particularly the United States, but with the support of England and other countries) regarding capitalistic, economic—and military— conquest. But I don't know what you mean when you say this. You certainly don't make yourself clear.

As to the matter of immigration/emigration, it has always occurred, and when people move from place to place, they bring parts of their culture with them. Their motivation for moving is often to seek a better life, but it is quite natural that they would want to bring the good aspects of what they left behind with them. They may become integrated into the culture to which they have moved, but some of the culture they bring with them is integrated along with the people themselves.

And this is a good thing. Otherwise, the host culture becomes static, and static cultures wither and die. Introduction of new elements into a culture, whether from the outside or from within are what keep it alive and growing. Multi-culturalism introduces people to new options. Both realistically and allegorically speaking, it increases the menu choices for everyone.

If you are as schooled in anthropology as you claim to be, you should know this—and accept it as a fact of life on this planet.

There is a line from a German play (often erroneously attributed to Hermann Goering, for some strange reason), regarding the touting of a particular culture. Because the person making the statement is aware of the dangers in culture-worship, he says:

"When I hear the word 'culture,' I reach for my pistol!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM

The "Free Trade Agreeement" between Aust & US is known here as 'The F*** The Aussies' con job...

"when people move from place to place, they bring parts of their culture with them. [snip] it is quite natural that they would want to bring the good aspects of what they left behind with them."

That's how Australia has become the Gourmet delight of the world - we got so many different cultural based food systems!

Went across the the park yesterday to the local 'multicultural festival' - such events are becoming very common in Australia now.

Snacked on a range of Indian/Thai/Dutch/French/German/Italian/Spanish/ ... (lost track) nibblies... (and there was no Sushi either!) Yum! Would I want to go back to the stodgy 'Traditional Aussie Food' of my youth (basically the worst of 'English Cusine')?

No way!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 10:08 PM

We're especially blessed here in Seattle. This is a major West Coast seaport city, and there are ethnic restaurants of all kinds here.

One of the local supermarkets has employed a Chinese chef in their deli department, and he makes the most outrageous Mongolian beef (strips of flank steak cooked in a savory—sorry, "savoury"—sauce and served over mixed vegetables or rice)! A gourmet delight!

But lest WAV assume that this puts me beyond the pale, since coffee (I used to drink gallons of the stuff) has started bothering my stomach, I've switched to tea. I'm particularly fond of English breakfast tea (purchasable at a local outlet), while occasionally preferring to start the day with a cup of Earl Gray.

I'm not sure. Is "Earl" the gentleman's first name, or is it his title?

A few years ago I watched a piece on television—pardon me, "the telly"—in which the Duchess of York explained in detail how to make "the perfect cup of tea." I tend to follow her quite detailed instructions, which, I find, produces quite satisfactory results.

Tea, regarded as the quintessential English beverage, originated in southeast Asia, specifically around the intersection of latitude 29°N and longitude 98°E, the point of confluence of the lands of northeast India, north Burma, southwest China and Tibet.

What would English culture—or any culture, for that matter—be without cross-culteral influences?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:33 AM

On the other hand Don, I - living in Newcastle upon Tyne, within walking distance of the (Charles) Grey's Monument - prefer mostly coffee and an occasional cup of tea. And I used to debate with my late-Godmother over whether the milk/soya (in my case) should go in first (her) or last (me - that way we can get the correct amount visually).
And I've also enjoyed those cuisines you and FT mention - DURING MY TRAVELLING - which was, in hindsight, the eco-travel/eco-tourism you questioned.
However, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the UN should agree to stop economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (including the American Green Card lottery system) FROM NOW ON. Further, it IS much more difficult for tourists to terrorize.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:43 AM

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems

I don't understand you. Could you please define what you mean by culture here? Many thanks,

Ed

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:46 AM

Hoodie culture? Blame culture? Those are cultures I find it hard to live with!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:59 AM

Glad to see this bizarre thread back - did anyone else notice that it was closed an hour or two ago, or was I imagining?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM

"Could you please define what you mean by culture here?" (Ed)...wonts.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:41 AM

Well, if you donts want to tell us, we cants make you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM

The usual going round in circles. Does culture = nationality? No.

Is there a single national culture or identity? No.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

no it wasnt.there were loads of irish,jews,and west indians.
in fact in notting hillgate in 1959,there were riots instigated by Oswald Mosley and Colin Jordan.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

"On the other hand Don, I - living in Newcastle upon Tyne, within walking distance of the (Charles) Grey's Monument - prefer mostly coffee and an occasional cup of tea.
"
Coffee, a beverage originating in Ethiopia which was spread throughout the Ottoman Empire by Arabs, then spread to Europe by the Turks.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:54 PM

The Notting Hill race riots were a series of racially-motivated riots which took place in the Notting Hill area of London, England over several nights in late August and early September 1958.
correction,The Notting Hill race riots of 1958 lasted for nearly a week and and were triggered by the activities of the British Union of Fascists led by Sir Oswald Mosley who encouraged direct action against Caribbean people in North Kensington.
I have no direct evidence linking Colin Jordan,to these riots.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

> Home <   |   > Print friendly <   |

Author: Steve Silver   |   Date: May 2006

Who killed my brother?
The murder of Kelso Cochrane on Saturday 17 May 1959 became one of the most significant moments in the history of racism in Britain. Stabbed to death by a gang of racist white youths, Cochrane was killed in a strikingly similar way to Stephen Lawrence in 1993. In both cases there was a conspiracy of silence that protected his murderers, but of course Stephen's name remains well known while Kelso's has largely faded from public memory.

That is why last month's BBC2 documentary Who Killed my Brother? was so welcome. The black and white footage of the Notting Hill area of west London was a grim reminder of some of the worst aspects of 1950s Britain, a far cry from the chic Notting Hill made famous by Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts nearly 40 years later in the 1999 film of that name.

Kelso Cochrane was an Antiguan who came to Britain in 1954 and settled in Notting Hill, where he worked as a carpenter. He was saving money so that he could eventually study law. Rejecting the opportunity to live in the USA when he was offered residency there, he made Britain his home.

While at work Kelso fractured his left thumb. Come the weekend, his arm in a sling, he found himself in severe pain. So, after a sunny Saturday spent at Portobello Road Market and Hyde Park with his fiancée, a nurse, that evening Kelso went to Paddington General Hospital to get his thumb looked at again and some pain relief. He was given pain killers and made his way home. Just a short distance from where he lived, he was attacked by five to seven white youths and stabbed in the heart. He died in hospital a short while later.

The Notting Hill area had become notorious following "race riots" eight months earlier in 1958. Because of this, Kelso's killing was to become national news and a hot political issue. Some 1,200 people, black and white, turned out for his funeral.

One man could not make the funeral. Back in Antigua, Kelso's brother Stanley, who had paid for Kelso's trip to England, did not have enough money to come himself. Who Killed my Brother? is the story of Stanley's journey to London this year in search of the truth about what happened the night his brother died.

Nobody has ever been tried for the murder. Stanley spoke to people close to Kelso at the time and with the TV researchers delved through archive material. He returned to Antigua with a better understanding of what happened but still a lot of missing pieces. Kelso's clothes had been destroyed in 1968 making advances in forensic technology that might have secured a conviction useless in this case. Searchlight cooperated with the police cold case murder reinvestigation team and the BBC researchers in tracking down potential witnesses.

In a pattern to be repeated all over Britain following other racist killings, the police at the time were quick to claim Kelso's murder was not racist. This was almost certainly a misguided attempt to ensure calm in the area. The reason behind this was a belief that the sentencing of white youths to four years' imprisonment for attacking black people had exacerbated tensions before the 1958 riots. In reality that was a rare conviction for what had been regular "nigger hunting expeditions". It has also been suggested that the police were worried about the repercussions as in those days a conviction for murder would have meant a hanging.

Union Movement

Of course, like moths to a light bulb, wherever there is a possibility of racial tensions, the fascists were active. Oswald Mosley's Union Movement targeted the Notting Hill area and many blamed it for whipping up racial hatred. There were no laws against inciting racial hatred at the time, which gave racists and fascists a free hand. Feeling the heat in the wake of the murder, Mosley issued this statement on the following Tuesday:

"On May 17 a negro was reported murdered in the Notting Hill district. The next day some daily papers suggested that this was due to racial tension and that I was responsible on account of my prospective candidature, although I had just circulated to every house in the area to settle the question by 'votes not violence' …"

Mosley said one thing and did another. He went on to hold a meeting on the very spot where Kelso was murdered. Who Killed my Brother? interviewed John Bean, a man once described as "the British Goebbels". Bean was one of the best known Union Movement activists at the time; he is currently editor of the British National Party magazine, Identity.

Most interesting of all was a key local Union Movement activist, Peter Dawson. A Notting Hill resident, Dawson joined the organisation in January 1959. While never a suspect in Kelso's murder, Dawson claimed to hold a vital piece of information.

On 24 September 1961 the Sunday People ran an exposé of Dawson under the headline "Britain's Biggest Bully Unmasked". Talking about Kelso's murder, Dawson told the reporter, Ken Gardner: "It was one of the Union mob … A great guy. Did it to teach the other nigs a lesson. But none of us in the movement would tell the police a thing."

Dawson was an unsavoury character even by fascist standards. The article described him as a "Housebreaker, thief, [and a] strong-arm man. Just the man for Mosley, who appointed him West London area organiser for the Union Movement."

Dawson played a leading role in Mosley's electioneering in Notting Hill. During the run-up to one election he was fined £10 for throwing a home-made smoke bomb into the window of a car. It was reported that he had "inflamed a crowd [at a meeting] against a group of white girls standing with their coloured boyfriends".

On 31 December 1959 Dawson allegedly daubed the slogan "Juden raus" (Jews out) three times on the wall of Notting Hill Gate synagogue with swastikas between the words. Then he slipped back to the office to make anonymous phone calls to the newspapers. The Association of Jewish Ex-Serviceman formed a group to guard synagogues, but in an attempt to discredit them Dawson placed a home-made bomb just outside the Union Movement headquarters. By its side he painted a Star of David.

In July 1960 Dawson was involved in a disturbance outside the Ritz Hotel where Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo, was staying. Dawson was sentenced to three months' imprisonment for using threatening behaviour whereby a breach of the peace might have been occasioned. According to the prosecution Dawson mistook the High Commissioner for Ghana for Lumumba and hit him in the face.

Dawson also sent fascist literature as a wedding present to Princess Margaret. Soon afterwards he organised a protest march outside the Pigalle Restaurant against the black American singer Sammy Davis Junior, who had recently married a Swedish woman, Mai Britt. He also boasted of putting a flaming cross on the railway bridge at Notting Hill Gate. "That put fear into the local blacks. They thought the Ku Klux Klan had arrived to burn them at the stake."

Dawson was for a time the circulation manager for Union Movement's Action newspaper. He was finally expelled from the organisation after an arson attack for which he was acquitted.

The programme makers tracked down Dawson in the hope of getting him to talk on camera but to no avail. If he does know who killed Kelso, to this day he will not say.

A prime suspect was a local young man who had been released from prison two weeks earlier. John "Shoggy" Breagan was notorious in the area for his violent racism towards black people which had led to his conviction. The trial judge referred to this hatred which combined with drink had led him to attack three black men with weapons including a knife. Breagan had attended the drinks party from where the men who attacked Kelso had come. Despite a lengthy police interview Breagan was never charged. Although Breagan agreed to meet Stanley, his front door remained firmly shut when Stanley turned up. In an angry phone call to the BBC he denied any knowledge of the murder.

White Defence League

Colin Jordan's White Defence League, which had its national headquarters in nearby Princedale Road, was also very active in the wake of Kelso's murder. Jordan prided himself that his organisation was even more nazi than the Union Movement. Less than a month after the murder he issued a pamphlet laden with conspiracy theory entitled Who Killed Kelso Cochrane? It said:

"The people behind the coloured invasion are getting desperate because of the growing white resistance in Notting Hill. Reds are forming strong-arm squads in support of the blacks. Jews have threatened to destroy the premises of the White Defence League. Now they are using the killing of a coloured man to:

"Smear the white folk of Notting Hill.


'Frame' white resistance organisations in the district.


Demand new laws to stifle and punish resistance.


Was Cochrane's killing arranged for this foul purpose?"

Interviewed on camera an ageing Jordan claimed with nostalgic bravado that his people operated unhindered from their Notting Hill premises. But Searchlight knows different. On one occasion three years after Kelso's murder, the building, which had by then become the headquarters of the National Socialist Movement and was only open at weekends, was attacked by anti-fascists and the furniture and contents turned upside down while members of the nazi "master race" cowered inside.
David Franks you really dont know what you are talking about

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

I didn't say there were no ethnic groups, or no ethnic conflict, in the 1950s, CB - I said: "Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

Okay Wavy, ya' gotta' point there. England in the 1950's was culturally a much more English place than the Bronx or Santa Fe. No two ways about that!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

Hey catspaw-you making fun of the bronx? Look out man, my dad's from the bronx and thems fighting words!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

"Whether or not we like the changes due to mass immigration, Joseph, it would be silly to deny that in the 1950s England was culturally a much more English place."

And the only logical question to arise from this statement, David, is whether you think that was a good thing? Do you think that this made England intrinsically "better" then than now?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

Nope IE......I love the Bronx! I thank the lord daily that its not English.......LOL

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

...and as Ruth already knows from other threads, but wants me to repeat, I genuinely prefer England "then than now" - although I do love our world being multicultural.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

Are you going to answer any of my points and questions, WAV?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

So you genuinely prefer an England "then" that you never existed in, because you were born too late? What are the reasons you prefer England then as opposed to now?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

"And I've also enjoyed those cuisines you and FT mention - DURING MY TRAVELLING - which was, in hindsight, the eco-travel/eco-tourism you questioned."

Well, how lovely for you, WAV!

Within walking distance or easy driving distance of where I live, there are a number of ethnic restaurants: three Chinese (not "chop suey" and "chow mein" joints, each serves authentic cuisine from a different part of China), Thai, Indian, two Mexican restaurants, two Italian, one Greek, restaurants that feature foods of other Mediterranean countries—a whole United Nations General Assembly of cuisines available to me and others who live where I do.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this world who cannot afford to go to Iran for luleh kebabs or Spain for paella or Turkey for babaganoush or Thailand for tom yum kung or Brazil for caruru do par. According to you, the right to enjoy the variety of the world's provender should be limited to those who can afford to indulge in eco-travel/eco-tourism. And everyone else (at least your fellow English) should stay home and dine on the legendary English "cuisine" of fifty years ago (which—I have been told—consisted of boiling the flavor out of everything)!

That is, at the very least, elitist!

"However, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the UN should agree to stop economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (including the American Green Card lottery system) FROM NOW ON. Further, it IS much more difficult for tourists to terrorize."

In addition to being blatantly inaccurate, the level of bigotry betrayed by this statement is shocking. This is the sort of stuff spouted by Southern rednecks and neo-Nazis.

And if you knew anything about the United Nations at all, you would know that what you would have them do regarding immigration/emigration just isn't ever going to appear on their agenda.

Incredible!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:21 PM

you are a xenophobe, David.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

Hell Ruth, that's okay.......Why I tell ya' Bigass Amazon scares the crap outta' me too!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 03:55 PM

Are you going to answer any of my points and questions, WAV?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM

Xenophobia, Ruth, is a fear or hatred of aliens/strangers, which is a ridiculous thing to say of someone who DID enjoy travelling on a shoestring through about 40 countries and, in frank response to your earlier question, made a point of stressing a love of our world being multicultural. And, if you set up some kind of candid camera to see if I would help a tourist of any culture or race, you would once more be proven wrong. It's the act of economic/capitalist immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning.
Don: for similar reasons, I hate imperialism be it Nazi, Victorian, American, or any other.
Volgadon: I did answer your questions, equally frankly - the only extra detail I can give is that, if attitudes changed radically and I was some kind of leader, I'd delegate for experts in their field to flesh-out the details of my above REGULATIONISM; i.e., macro NOT micro management...and how's your standard English dictionary going?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Says something, then when questioned about it or called on it, he ducks it and says something else.

Like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall.

What exactly do you mean by "economic/capitalistic immigration/emigration?"

Some detail, please.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

By the way, WAV, it was imperialism (you have heard of "The British Empire," haven't you?) that made English culture during the period you're so fond of possible.

Just thought I'd point that out to you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:50 PM

And of course it's that same imperialism that resulted in the arrival in England of those awful people with their objectionably brown skins
no, wait...
heathen religions
er...
funny cooking
how shall I put this...
foreign wonts. Because, let's face it, if there's one thing we can't be doing with here in tolerant liberal England, it's foreign wonts.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:10 PM

In a debate in Parliament around 1945, one MP was heard to rant, "We've got to keep those wogs on their own side of the Channel!"

WAV, it would appear, echoes that sentiment.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:25 PM

"Xenophobia, Ruth, is a fear or hatred of aliens/strangers,"

it is equally xenophobic to say "foreigners are fine - I just don't want them in my street/neighbourhood/country. Let them stay where they come from/belong."

Just as it is homophobic to say "homosexuals are fine - I just don't want to have to see them."

Both are about artificially preserving an illusion of homogeneity and "safety" within a majority population. Both are equally deluded and prejudicial.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

It's too late to stop immigration of any kind, economic or otherwise (not that I would want to stop it, myself). That horse has left the barn. But it is possible to make it easier for people to stay in their own countries (because most people would prefer to live well in their own countries than to move to other countries for economic reasons), and this is what we should be doing.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 07:52 PM

One thing that is fairly evident about the fifties is that culture in the UK was much narrower than nowadays; in that most of the culture accorded popular value here was American: Movies, music, food, drinks, clothes

I think this touches on a couple of the running sores (or discussions as they are sometimes described here. One is that people blithely talk about traditional music as if it was obvious or agreed what a tradition is. Most of the tales of traditional music described in this forum have no basis in tradition at all. Tradition is something continuous which you are brought up within and pass on. It is not about how old the music is. It certainly has nothing to do with how the rich and powerful divide us up at any given moment in time.

When you research and learn a song which was sung by people in a different context in a different era there is no element of tradition in this, whether the songs come from the place you were born or not. It may be a fascinating and interesting intelectual excercise but it has nothing to do with tradition, yet so many people in here get self-righteous about the authenticity of their keeping "The Tradition" alive..

My fathers family all worked in the Clyde Shipyards. I have no knowledge of any link to the Lords, Ladies, Kings, Queens, ploughmen, Shepherds, Sailors or Dragoons who inhabit the so called Traditional songs of whichever country you would care to assign me to ( Wilson is an English name, 2 of my grandparents were Irish) My daughters were both born in England. Which Tradition would you wish me to pass on to them?

My father taught me, among many other things, Tom Paxton songs which I have passed on to my daughters. I have learned Archie Fisher and Ewan McColl songs to keep alive the memory of socialist, working people; that is my history, even if some of it is set in Spain, Salford or Chile.

For the past 20 years I have been very interested in the history of old songs. I have even learned a few. I found that most of the songs which I think of as Traditional Scottish are nothing of the sort but were the popular mass entertainments of 2 generations before mine; pre tv music halls and theatres.   However I learned them singing at my Grandparents' houses where we would have big family get togethers at New Year; community singing. That was one of our traditions, shared by a lot of Scottish people. I was brought up with a love of music by my parents and their families. I was brought up in a tradition of getting together and singing or playing anything you could. We spent so long doing it that to find a song which no-one had yet sung different generations would have to sing things from their own era as well as the songs we all shared. Many of the songs I think of as American, or Irish, or English are in fact Scottish in origin but my singing them is not continuation of any Scottish tradition.   I recently relearned an old American folk song " Mr Froggy went a courting", passed on to me by my Dad from Burl Ives in the sixties but reinforced by Tom and Jerry in the seventies. It is only through Mudcat that I now know this song to be a very old Scottish song. The oldest song which I sing ( I think) is Lord Randall an ancient precursor of many songs down the centuries but I picked it up from Pete Morton, a young man from Leicester and one of the few people I have heard over the years who really can make the old multiverse ballads come to life.   

For centuries music has been used to undermine boundaries of politics and class. However there have always been people like WAV who try to use it in the opposite direction -Keep the poor people of the world in their place/country, pretend that this is the natural order of things. Music lasts as it moves round the world and down generations because it speaks universal truths. Borders and populations come and go to reflect the power politics of a moment.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:57 PM

When a person is urban born, grows up listening to popular music on the radio (whatever the current fads happen to be), then becomes interested in folk music from going to a concert, hearing a recording, or through a friend—then developes that interest by learning to play a guitar, banjo, or whatever, and learning a bunch of songs from song books and records—I have always taken a dim view of calling such a person a "folk singer." Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always considered a folk singer to be someone who was born and raised in the tradition like, say, Jean Ritchie, Frank Proffitt, or Jeanne Robertson.

This is essentially how my interest developed way back, and I think this is also true for the vast majority if people here on Mudcat. Am I (are we) keeping "the Tradition" alive? And if so, what tradition is that?

Contrary to WAV, I sing songs from a whole variety of "traditions." English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, songs from all over the United States and Canada, and I manage to wrap my mouth around a bit of French, Serbo-Croatian, and Czech. In fact, the criterion I use for whether I learn a song or not is simply that I like the song and want to sing it. I sing folk songs, but I do not consider myself to be a "folk singer." A "singer of folk songs," perhaps. But not all of the songs I sing are folk songs.

Music—of all kinds—is a universal language. And songs are too, even when we may not understand the language in which a song is sung. It can still convey emotions and communicate. Placing limitations on what people should or should not sing is something I simply refuse to accept, and I will not be bound by any one tradition or culture.

Borders between countries are man-made and artificial. Astronauts have remarked that, from space, you can see no borders.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:35 AM

"the criterion I use for whether I learn a song or not is simply that I like the song and want to sing it. I sing folk songs, but I do not consider myself to be a "folk singer." A "singer of folk songs," perhaps. But not all of the songs I sing are folk songs."

Me too - I'm a muso - maybe a 'folkie', but definitely a muso - I even do 'Classical' stuff.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

"It's too late to stop immigration of any kind, economic or otherwise (not that I would want to stop it, myself). That horse has left the barn. But it is possible to make it easier for people to stay in their own countries (because most people would prefer to live well in their own countries than to move to other countries for economic reasons), and this is what we should be doing." (Carol)...yes and no: it would be great if the inequality between nations began to greatly reduce - but capitalist/economic immigration/emigration IS not going to aid this process. If politicians in London, e.g., talk about quality and skilled immigrants, then the gap between our nation and the poorer nations will increase. We need my above GLOBAL REGULATIONISM, via a stronger UN (NOT US - we've had heaps of next-US-leader coverage here in England, but got hardly any about the newish UN leader).
And I say capitalist/economic immigration/emigration, Don, to distinguish it from other kinds - such as couples falling in love on holiday, medical reasons, etc.
And a couple of other critical posts (Don, Ruth!) since my last ignored the fact that it IS the act of immigration/emigration itself that I repeatedly question - and NOT any particular culture/race. I really do love the world being multicultural and again see REGULATIONISM as the good peaceful solution to keep it so.
Anyway, at least I didn't log-in to "WAVe couldn't rule a straight line"!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:41 AM

You argue on the one hand to reduce immigration for economical reasons, but then that England was better in the 1950s due to it's cultural purity.

The two are completely separate issues, but arguments citing economical reasons are often made by people with a more sinister agenda, and more often than not, the arguments made are unfounded.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM

I'm sure, Joseph, that economic/capitalist/money immigration/emigration is not a good think for several reasons. I'm equally sure, though, that genuine asylum seekers should be helped, again via the UN, to their NEAREST safe nation.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM

I am continuously amazed at the number of ways and the terminology used by Wavydoof to mask his bigotry and racism,

WAV......You are a bigot and a racist. This is not an attack upon you.......Its a fact.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

"I'm sure, Joseph, that economic/capitalist/money immigration/emigration is not a good think for several reasons."

Another unjustified comment, with no proof. Is it not a good thing for the individual, the area the individual has left or the area the individual has gone to? What are the pros and cons resulting from emigration for each of these? Balance these up, ideally with lots of supporting evidence and examples, then you can say whether it is a bad or good thing, then you can hold a justified opinion.

What is good anyway? Good for culture, the economy, happiness, infrastructure, environment? Its no black and white issue (or maybe it is :-p )

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Time and time again, some of you pro-immigrationists, in desperation, try and label anyone who dares to question immigration as a bigot or a racist - and time and time again I've tried to make it clear that there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being a racist. Why don't you at least admit that it is possible for someone who genuinely does like the world being multicultural to not like economic immigration - e.g., Joseph, because they feel that trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the on state law will always cause problems, or that the resulting loss of local culture will be bad for society, or that a given nation is already over-crowded, etc.
Go through all I've published on the web, and you'll only find repeated questioning of immigration - you will NOT, Spaw, find any racist or defamatory attacks on any given person or people ("IT'S a fact").
(And this is usually where the thread gets closed, but I hope not this time, as there are many other topics/Weekly Walkabouts I'd like post for discussion.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

You already have posted them on your own website. You've reposted them here in many cases repeatedly and linked your crap ad infinitum.

Nothing new and nothing related to any real folklore or the music now is there? Just one little man's opinions repeated in verse (and also prose) over and over. Note that we don't do that even for performing artists here. Why repost?

Yeah......I know I don't have to open it but then again you don't have to post it. You got your own site for all your crap, just link it one more time and call it a day.

BTW, this is definitely BS.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

"Volgadon: I did answer your questions,"

Then where have you explained in greater detail what you mean by nationalism with fair trade, where have you answered my Noel Coward question, where have you addressed why it is acceptable for you to sing a Scottish song, yet others shouldn't an American one?

My English Dictionary is going superbly. Do you want to read an extract from the foreword?

You might find my style a little too conversational, WAV, but I don't see why a dictionary has to be a dull doorstopper.


The English language is rich and varied. In England alone there are around sixty different dialects, as well as numerous regional varieties throughout the world. Most of those variances can be traced to different traditions in the British Isles before standardisation began in the 18th century. The peculiar nature of the English langue is, perhaps, best demonstrated by the following saying. English does not borrow from other languages- English follows other languages don dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
A people's history is often best told by their language. English is no exception.
Germanic in origin, it absorbed many of the idionsyncrancies of various Celtic languages, Norman French, Latin, Dutch, as well as Hindi, through a long, shared history.
Each encounter has enrichened our vocabulary and culture.
In this dictionary, as well as standard British forms, we have chosen, when appropriate, to present some variations which have or have had wide currency, as well as some historical oddities.

All that remains is to write the confounded thing!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

I think that the inclination for people to move to other countries will diminish if and when there is more economic equality between the various nations of the world. I also agree that the need for people to move to other countries because of economic need is unfortunate. I don't agree that mixing cultures within any given country is the cause of the problems that we see in those countries where such mixing occurs. I think the problems are the result of institutionalized discrimination in those countries.

As a for instance, here in the US, there is little or no friction between immigrants from Muslim countries and the rest of the population. That is because, until recently, this country didn't practice discrimination against Muslims, and because the Muslim immigrants to this country came from the higher social/economic strata of their countries of origin. In parts of Europe, they have come more from the middle and lower strata, and they have been very much discriminated against (as are most immigrants from lower levels of the social strata), causing unrest and friction between them and the rest of the population of their adopted country. Also, the lower levels of the social/economic strata are have less job security and when they have to compete with immigrants for jobs, there is friction.

The people in this country that one hears the most about with regard to friction are the immigrants from the countries of Latin America. This is because they are largely from the lower levels of the social/economic strata and they compete with the people here for jobs. They also experience more discrimination than immigrants from some countries.

This is not because different cultures cannot live side by side. It is because people are in the habit of sticking with the familiar. This is something that is changed over time with exposure to those who are different.

So from my perspective, the answer to the problem is greater economic equality and greater equality of opportunity everywhere. The solution to that is in large part the end of economic imperialism. We are in agreement on that. But we disagree about whether or not different cultures can live together in peace. My experience has been that they can, provided everyone has the same opportunities and receives the same treatment.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

"Why don't you at least admit that it is possible for someone who genuinely does like the world being multicultural to not like economic immigration"

Becuase you like the WORLD to be multicultural only as long as it doesn't try and make it's way to your doorstep.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

Also, when I have lived in areas that were extremely homogeneous (where almost everyone was White and Protestant), the local culture had a greater tendency to give way to bland, corporate popular culture than areas that had a lot of different cultures living together. This is because in a culturally homogeneous area, the local culture is so taken for granted, it is quickly discarded in favor of the new. But where there is a variety of cultures all in the same place, everyone becomes more keenly aware of their own culture of origin, and they are much more likely to embrace it and preserve it. So I would say that mixing cultures in a particular geographic area is the best way to preserve the cultures of many localities.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM

People also don't feel like they are being forced into a particular culture, so are more liekly to choose their own than reject it as an act of rebellion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

But Carol and Volgadon - what about the law of the land matching the culture. Examples such as the following sometimes make the news here - a school with a strict no-jewellery policy (similar to all French schools now having a no-veil policy, I think) ends up in court because a student insists that a bracelet is very important to her culture and religion...and cases can, of course, get a lot more serious than this. Why doesn't everyone agree that, given all the economic immigration that has occurred around the world, it's definitely better overall if it is, from now on, slowed right down, via UN regulations.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being a racist

You've said this many times, but I don't think you've persuaded anyone yet. The problem is, WAV, that people who feel that trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the on state law will always cause problems, or that the resulting loss of local culture will be bad for society are racist - that's almost a definition of racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

WAV, nice job of ignoring my questions. Are you going to answer, do you have something to hide, or do you simply not know how to explain things beyond writing a sentance or two on your site?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

It's not possible to prevent such occurances even if immigration is not allowed. People often convert to other religions without ever leaving their locality of origin, so such problems will arise regardless of whether or not there is immigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:44 PM

Look up your dictionary, Pip, and you'll find it's something quite different from the questioning of immigration you just re-posted.
Volgadon - you say I don't when I do answer your questions, e.g., over "Barbara Allen," which may be one from my repertoiree that I choose to sing at a singaround tonight - the English version, i.e.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

"This is because in a culturally homogeneous area, the local culture is so taken for granted, it is quickly discarded in favor of the new. But where there is a variety of cultures all in the same place, everyone becomes more keenly aware of their own culture of origin, and they are much more likely to embrace it and preserve it."

That is an astute observation, Carol. I think that's exactly what we're observing in multi-cultural England right now, in both a positive and a negative way.

"Examples such as the following sometimes make the news here - a school with a strict no-jewellery policy (similar to all French schools now having a no-veil policy, I think) ends up in court because a student insists that a bracelet is very important to her culture and religion"

what about those cases where the religion being defended is Christianity? There have been several. So does that mean that Christianity is in conflict with the law of the land?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

That's a good point. I should have said that a lot of people convert from one religion to another, or to no religion at all without ever leaving their area of origin. And this does cause conflicts between the various groups without immigration being a part of the equation.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:28 PM

The OED says:

"prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being"

I stand by what I said.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

Excellent posts, Carol!

Regarding discrimination against immigrants from Latin America, you say, "This is because they are largely from the lower levels of the social/economic strata and they compete with the people here for jobs."

I would add that, for the most part, this discrimination is unfounded, because most of the jobs they take are the menial, low-paying jobs that most Americans, even those in fairly desperate straits, simple will not take. Most Americans would find wearing a paper hat and asking "Do you want fries with that?" is acceptable, but swabbing out toilets in public rest rooms is not, even though the two jobs might pay the same. Or the classic, farm labor, down and dirty, all day long in the blazing sun. You'll find a whole lot more Gomezes and Moraleses out in the fields and orchards than you will Smiths and Joneses.

And WAV,

". . . what about the law of the land matching the culture. Examples such as the following sometimes make the news here - a school with a strict no-jewellery policy (similar to all French schools now having a no-veil policy, I think) ends up in court because a student insists that a bracelet is very important to her culture and religion. . . ."

First of all, such things as the French school regulations are, as I understand it, not the law of the land, they are regulations of the schools themselves, and they tend to be arbitrary and draconian. Even if they were the law of the land, they would still be arbitrary and draconian, and since it can be construed as a form of religious oppression (forbidding the wearing of jewelry, such as a necklace with a cross, or items such as a yarmulke or a headscarf), that is what needs to be addressed.

I would object to a tax-supported educational institution promoting or suppressing any expression of a student's religious belief as long as that expression was passive, such as the wearing of a headscarf. Proselytizing, either by the student or by the school, would be another matter. But how does a student wearing a yarmulke in class affect any other student—unless that student it bothers harbors the seeds of religious bigotry?

And WAV, the idea you have that the United Nations should regulate immigration/emigration, especially for economic reasons (the individual or family seeking a better life than what is possible for them in their country of origin) shows that you have little or no understanding of what the UN is all about.

I would like to see a world in which such things as passports, border guards, check points, and barbed wire fences are simply eliminated and people can come and go anywhere they want, anytime they want.

I don't anticipate this happening in my lifetime, but being (for some bizarre and unfounded reason) optimistic about the future of humankind, I think that time will come.

After all, science has found the missing link between early primates and Civilized Man.

It is us.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

I'm glad someone likes my posts. I hope people can see that it is possible to discuss these issues and even disagree about them without attacking or even discussing the originator of the thread. In my opinion, it's a lot more productive to discuss the issues rather than discussing the people who are discussing the issues.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM

Don, one thing to remember is that a lot of state schools in Europe (including the UK) have uniforms, and therefore a uniforms policy. When these cases arise, they usually result from a violation of the uniform policy - extending a privelege to those of a religious persuasion which isn't enjoyed by the rest of the school body. If certain forms of self-expression are denied to the rest of the kids, one could argue, why are some forms allowed to others?

Whether you think freedom of religious expression is sufficiently important to warrant the relaxation of the school rules for some pupils is probably a separate issue, but I personally support the basic principle of school uniforms.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:19 PM

Don - the French law relates to the non-religious character of the state, which they take a bit further than the similar US idea - the idea is that when you're on state property you shouldn't assert any religious allegiance (so no crucifixes in school, and no hijabs). More background here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:10 PM

A most interesting and informative article, Pip. Thank you.

There is much in it that I need to absorb yet, but obviously the problem is considerably more complex than I was aware of. However, with a measure of good will on both sides (a commodity hard come by these days), it would seem that the problem could be solved with some serious negotiation. But then, so could most of the world's problems!

I do not see, however, that these difficulties justify closing international borders to immigration. The advantages far outweigh the occasional problem that manifests itself.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 11:37 PM

By the way, on the subject of immigrants to the US from Latin America, they are definitely competing for jobs with people born in the US in the area where I live, where they comprise most of the workforce in the building and flooring trades, and other carpentry related trades. There is a lot of resentment towards these immigrants from people who feel that they are unable to get good jobs in these trades because people are coming here from other countries and working for less than what people in this country can afford to work for.

This is what's wrong with economic imperialism. The US undercuts the ability of people in Latin America to make a living by flooding the markets there with subsidized corn and other things, and the workers there are forced to seek employment in the US, which forces the workers in this country to have to work for less than a living wage. In this respect, I am in complete agreement with the sentiments of the thread originator.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:49 AM

CarolC, your point against economic migration is completely different in sentiment and content to the originator of this thread (WAV). Your point there shows a specific example where certain unfavourable conditions have led to migration, in turn creating further problems for all. What WAV is arguing is that economic migration is bad because cultures cannot and should not mix. The two sentiments are very different.

I am not pro-immigration as such, but when I see what I see as racist motivations behind an anti immigration policy or argument, I have to point it out for what it is!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM

I've given several reasons here (non of them "racist", Joseph), and others elsewhere, why the world would be a better safer place if the UN agreed on the kind of Global Regualtionism I mention above - inluding economic immigration/emigration being illegalised. Yes, a lot of us are where we are in the world now due to the fact that it has been legal (if restricted) for many years - but that should NOT mean that we just have to continue to support it. Slave immigration/emigration was, of course, legal for a long time - it still goes on, e.g., for prostitution, but most are now heavily against it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:00 AM

"on the subject of immigrants to the US from Latin America, they are definitely competing for jobs with people born in the US in the area where I live, where they comprise most of the workforce in the building and flooring trades, and other carpentry related trades. There is a lot of resentment towards these immigrants from people who feel that they are unable to get good jobs in these trades because people are coming here from other countries and working for less than what people in this country can afford to work for."

That's interesting Carol, because it reminded me of America in the late 80s, before I emigrated to the UK (definitely NOT for economic reasons!). Before I left, when the Celtic Tiger had yet to roar, many of the people I knew doing the sorts of jobs you mention, as well as restaurant and bar work, in New York, New Jersey and even LA, were illegal Irish immigrants. Actually, "immigrants" probably isn't the right word, because most of them didn't intend to stay forever - like many of the young Poles currently living in the UK, they were there for a few years, making money, and intended eventually to return home. Most did - unless they happened to meet an American girl and settle in the US. But there were so many of them in America that the Morrison Visa lottery system was introduced.

In any case, the thing that's interesting is that there was no sense of resentment in the communities where they lived, even though the jobs they were doing could undoubtedly have been done by unemployed locals. I even knew illegal Irish who owned their own businesses and employed scores of illegal Irish labour - police turning a blind eye, by any chance?

My point is that, because the local communities felt a cultural affinity to the immigrants in question, they were welcomed into the community with open arms. The resentment you speak of, I think, is at least partly rooted in the sense of "otherness" which comes from people with different language and cultural practices. It's that sense of an alien invasion of sorts which makes people resentful - it's not just economics.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

There is a broader scope for all of this, as Carol and others have mentioned, regarding, in my case, immigration and employment in the US that speaks to national policy. But one must not forget that for some jobs, although immigrants may be taking skilled jobs away from citizens, for others, they are tolling away in the lowest paid,most physically demanding, and most soul sucking jobs available in our workforce. In other words, they are taking a lot of the jobs, and hours that most of us would have no desire to take all for the most meager salary, with no benefits, and with long, gruelling hours. The guilt, I have always felt belongs in part to the employers who sustain that aspect of our workforce, as well as to the mentality that I have heard many times, even from some people I know, to "hire some Mexicans, they'll do anything for the money." Like professionals in the Olympics, there are too many loopholes existent that are punishing the wrong people.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM

WAV, my question about Barabara Allen is why is it acceptable for you to sing an English variant of a Scottish song, but for an Englishman to sing something like House of the Rising Sun would be an abomination?

You haven't answered it.

Now, without ignoring that one, on to my other questions.

1) What do you think of Noel Coward, is his music not English?
2) explain in greater detail what you mean by nationalism with fair trade. Then again, maybe you have cause for retinence, hmmmm.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM

I've given several reasons here (non of them "racist", Joseph)

WAV: you said your concerns are that

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the on state law will always cause problems

and that
the resulting loss of local culture will be bad for society

You think it would have been better for England if many of the people of other cultures who have come here in the last 50 years had not done so. Correct?

The OED defines racism as "prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being"

You are a racist. If you're unhappy about being called a racist, it's you who needs to change.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Perhaps WAV is on to something. You see, this being the 21st century, Dr. Fu Manchu, ever striving to strike at the heart of everything English and decent, has had to refine his modus operandi somewhat, putting aside his posion cats and green mists for something a lot more dangerous: MASS IMMIGRATION. You see, apart from helping to plan the opening ceremonies at the olympics, and introducing chords and harmony to folk music (English trad, naturally, Gaels and renegade Amerindian chanters should keep to their own corner of the Isles), the insidous dr has been encouraging furriners to leave that poor, benighted corners of the world (tho very pretty to eco-travel in) and move to England's fair and pleasent green, where different cultures cannot, must not, live under one roof. Thus the good, wholesome English lifestyle, of tennis on the village green on Sunday afternoons (after a rousing, yet entirely composed and dignified High Anglican service) cucumber sandwiches washed down with mead and morris dancers with bells merrily jingling (accompanied by top-line melody tunes played on recorder) will become a thing of the past. Other outrages of the nefarious evil genius, the greatest genius ever to set his mind to crime in the furtherance of his foul goals, are introducing spicy vindaloos, by which he hopes to seduce good, honest Englishmen everywhere away from wholesome, traditional stodgy foods. Yes, he has introduced flavour, which will soon make a mindless slave out of decent folk everywhere. He has also corrupted footie by passionate foreigners, spread tolerance, and, yes, horror of horrors, danced at E-ceilidhs instead of at an English Country Dance.
Will the roving commision of the UN, under the intrepid Nayland Smith and Dr. Petrie be able to stop mass immigration and the insidous Dr. Fu Manchu in time??????????

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM

"Racism: belief in superiority of particular race,; antagonism towards members of a different race based upon this" (Collins Dictionary)...I hate imperialism/"superiority of particular race" and I have only questioned the act of immigration itself - NOT any "differnet race" Pip. However, it's not just on Mudcat that pro-immigrationist keep trying to equate racism with the questioning of immigration, so it's not surprising that dictionary definitions have moved that way. But, just recently, there has been a movement back toward the understanding that, in a democracy, it IS acceptable to question immigration, and NOT acceptable to brand someone as a racist for doing so. So your criticism IS false and defamatory.
Volgadon - I cited Dig. Trad. above over "Barbara Allen"...there is an English and a Scottish version, and dispute over which came first.
I don't know a lot about Noel Coward, frankly - I'm mainly into English folk and hymns.
Nationalism with fair-trade - a UN regulated (NOT free) global economy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Stu
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

Aren't immigrants people of different race from the target country? So if you're anti immigration, you're anti (some race or other). Or are immigrants ex-pats. Frankly I find your reasoning lacking in coherence.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

"it IS acceptable to question immigration, and NOT acceptable to brand someone as a racist for doing so. So your criticism IS false and defamatory."

It depends on what your grounds for questioning immigration are. If it's because immigrants are "felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being", then it constitutes racism.

You can't simply dismiss the OED's definition because you don't agree with it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Stu - if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist; but questioning the act of immigration itself is certainly NOT.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

But how does nationalism fit into fair trade? That is what you haven't explained.

The earliest reference to Barbara Allen calls it a Scottish song.

Well, do a little reading and listening up on Noel Coward, then tell me if you think he sounds English or American.

BTW, what happens if the UN decides to listen to you, meets together and decrees that immigration should be increased threefold, with half of it being directed at your current place of residence?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (temp.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

In the area of the country where I live, what I wrote above is true. The construction trades have fairly strong unions, and these unions are supported by other unions, so a construction worker working for less than union wages is pretty rare.

On the other hand, I am aware of a number of janitorial and housecleaning services that pay minimum wage, and most of them hire immigrants, almost totally Hispanic. Eastern Washington is farm country, and both legal and illegal immigrants do get this far North, following the crops. In addition to various kinds of produce, Eastern Washington is wine country (good volcanic soil), and Washington apples are world famous. Without immigrant workers working for very low wages, these jobs simply wouldn't get done because most Americans, no matter how hard up, just simply don't want to do them. Hard work, dirty work, long hours.

Of course, this doesn't stop people from saying that "these illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from American workers."

Computer companies tend to hire a lot of programmers and technicians from India, not because they can pay them cheaper wages, but because they are just darn good at what they do. Better educated, better qualified.

Closing the borders is one way to avoid facing certain bitter truths.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:52 PM

"Closing the borders is one way to avoid facing certain bitter truths."

Indeedio. But what happens when they close the borders and you STILL can't find a job? Who do you blame then?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

WAV, 12th August:

"Look up your dictionary, Pip, and you'll find it's something quite different from the questioning of immigration you just re-posted."

WAV, 13th August:

"pro-immigrationist keep trying to equate racism with the questioning of immigration, so it's not surprising that dictionary definitions have moved that way."

So the dictionary definition supports you - except where it doesn't, in which case the dictionary is wrong.

But set that aside. Please, let's stop talking about 'questioning immigration'. You don't question immigration, do you? You're opposed to immigration, specifically on the grounds that you think there shouldn't be multiple cultures in one country - you've said this many times. Which means, in the English context, you don't think that West Indian and South Asian and Irish cultures should have been brought here. Which means you're antagonistic to, or prejudiced against, those cultures and the people who brought them here.

A straight question: do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:18 PM

But what happens when they close the borders and you STILL can't find a job? Who do you blame then?

Bush

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:20 PM

if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist

But that's exactly what you're saying! You're saying that immigrants of any ethnicity other than English are all alien to English culture and a potential threat to it. You're a racist even by your own arbitrarily limited definition, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

Good job there Pip!

Now that its been factually and logically decided and determined that Wavyboy is obviously a racist, how about we look up "Dipstick" and/or "Brokedick Jadrool" so that these terms might also be used freely?

That's not an attack. I'm simply hoping and trying to define terms...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:33 PM

Well, lemme see. "Dipstick" was a cartoon duck in a short-lived comic strip by a local cartoonist in one of the Seattle papers. Dipstick wasn't like Donald Duck. He wore a jacket and what looked like a derby hat, spent most of his time sitting on the end of a dock on the waterfront and commenting on the news of the day. He appeared on the editorial page rather than the regular comic page. He had a sort of semi-human appearing buddy named Cecil Addle (Get it? C. Addle.)

I think he got his name from coming out second best in too many encounters with oil-spills.

Anybody have a good definition for the word "dork?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:08 PM

walkabout
>>>No, Stu - if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist; but questioning the act of immigration itself is certainly NOT.

Pip
>>>if someone says immigrants of some particular ethnicity are all like this or that, they may be racist

But that's exactly what you're saying! You're saying that immigrants of any ethnicity other than English are all alien to English culture and a potential threat to it. You're a racist even by your own arbitrarily limited definition, I'm afraid.<<<

He certainly is not from this quote. What he is saying is that they are not a part of English culture. Which is true. True but not racist.

I find keeping people out to protect English culture a bit daft at this point because modern English culture certainly includes such things as south Asian curry shops. But that alone would qualify as proof as racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 11:32 PM

I don't think it's racism either. The desire is to preserve English culture in England. An appreciation for other cultures has been expressed by the one articulating this desire numerous times. The difference is that the thread originator is concerned that English culture will die out (not that other cultures are not as valid as English culture), and the belief is that stopping some kinds of immigration will prevent this from happening. I don't happen to agree with this idea myself, but it's not racist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM

I am sure its 220!

220 is right
At this time of night
Later you'll see
Its all about ME!!!

The OCness of Boredom


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:20 AM

Its plain to see that what the devil will do with idle hands.

For the sake of peace and harmony on the Mudcat I just wish that more threads were closer to one hundred.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:26 AM

"The difference is that the thread originator is concerned that English culture will die out (not that other cultures are not as valid as English culture), and the belief is that stopping some kinds of immigration will prevent this from happening. I don't happen to agree with this idea myself, but it's not racist."

The politics of seige have been used in many places to justify bigotry. The "our culture is under threat" chestnut is a favourite of the BNP.

"I love our world being multi-cultural", but not wanting to see any of that multiculturalism in England, is one of the most fundamental tenets of xenophobia: "I don't mind them, as long as they're not over here."

I'm afraid I disagree with you, Carol. I think these views are not only racist, but they are of a particularly nasty variety, as they try and couch themselves under a veneer of acceptability.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:00 AM

The BNP supporting a position does not automatically make it racist.

Wanting to preserve one's culture certainly is not. Though racist politicians may use that argument when less palatable ones prove unpopular.

On the other hand, isn't all the talk about racism here an attempt to stop the poetry? Racist talk is banned on the Mudcat. If WalkaboutsVerse says something blatantly racist on this forum, y'all can ask the moderators to delete it. On the other hand, the harmless descriptions of geographical English blandness, seem to be drawing a very high level on hostility. They also seem to be drawing a high number of personal attacks from at least one esteemed member. Its making us all look a little childish.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:15 AM

I agree that racists definitely couch their racism in that kind of terminology. But racists have universal contempt for people and cultures other than their own. The person who started this thread has expressed appreciation and admiration for many cultures other than his own, many of which are non-white cultures, which are the most hated by racists. For pete sake, just look at his myspace friends...

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=167864750


As I said before, I don't agree with the methods proposed, but wishing to preserve one's own culture is not racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:16 AM

By the way, I notice that someone with moderator powers has altered the contents of the link in the opening post in this thread.

---

Noted and repaired.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:44 AM

racists have universal contempt for people and cultures other than their own

Some racists may do, but most don't. Racists divide the world into their own race/ethnicity/culture and other races/ethnicities/cultures, and see other cultures as a threat to their own. Even the white South African government used to proclaim its respect and admiration for black culture - they just thought it was best if black and white cultures were kept separate (which is the meaning of the 'apart' in Apartheid).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:01 AM

They did a lot more than keep Blacks and Whites separate. They completely subjugated the indigenous Black population and rendered them effectively captive in their own lands. That's an entirely different kettle of fish than someone saying they'd like to preserve their own culture in the location from which it sprang.

Another thing racists don't do is seek out people of cultures other than their own (because they consider them inferior), unlike the person who started this thread.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:16 AM

Esteemed member? Me? Surely not. Although at one point early on I was enjoying a few shots at Walky, I have since even had posts deleted and have not posted anything attack-like since. Saying he's a racist and a bigot is not an attack. Ruth and Pip and others are not attacking the lad either. Simply stating an opinion that one considers true in even tones is not an attack. Walky says he believes his stuff and I don't feel he's attacking me by saying I am not telling the truth. Its his opinion.

And it was Walky himself who long ago made the subject matter of his poetry the topic of these threads.

228, now ain't that great
I couldn't wait til 228
Later you'll see
Its all about me.

The OCness of Boredom

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:55 AM

"a few shots at Walky" (Spaw)..well this has become something of a tennis/ping-pong thread...BS, Music, BS...(but I've had an email saying it's back down due to lack of verse, sorry Spaw - the next Weekly Walkabout will not be posted until Saturday...I wonder if we'll wander back up again?!).
As for the "shots" regarding racism, from Pip, Ruth, Spaw, etc., I will always respond as I know myself, and my genuine enjoyment of travelling and being in-among other cultures for a time. However, what Carol just said of me/answered for me is accurate, and I'll leave it at that on this occasion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:34 AM

>>>Simply stating an opinion that one considers true in even tones is not an attack.

So if I were to observe that Walkabout's calm responses to your constant, yammering, and teasing is making you look like a desperate, screaming, playground bully, you would not perceive that as an attack? Because of course I would never voice such an opinion, even though I hold it, except as an illustration. Because such an attack, if I did voice it, would not hurt you so much as it would the harmony of this forum. I do not have the relish for making extra work for the moderators that some have demonstrated.

Though Spaw, you are not identifiable as the worst upsetter of this little apple-cart we lovingly call the 'Cat. That honor should be held for the "moderator" who abused his (not likely her) position to vandalize this thread. I don't care to speculate on who that might be.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:45 AM

Pip Radish
Ruth Archer

You are both making excellent points. I also think that Walkabouts has said some unfortunate things which open him up to your accusations. I don't see what you two are doing as attacks, because they clearly are not meant that way. You are rightfully offended by his words. I don't think it is likely that you will get him to admit to racism though, I don't think he believes that he is racist, which may be understandable, because I am not completely convinced that he is racist. For the purpose of peace and harmony, I would like to respectfully suggest that now might be the time for you two to drop the subject of racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:16 AM

You're probably right, Jack. I know how pointless these threads are - I keep returning to them in the way you keep prodding a sore tooth with your tongue...

I know that the sensible thing to do is to walk away, because WAV won't ever change his opinions on any of these topics, no matter how many very clever people (I'm not including myself, but referring to some of our esteemed colleagues) present evidence that there is no cultural or historical foundation for many of the beliefs which inform his world view. My instinct is always to confront bigotry, and bigotry is what I see in WAV's views - and while he insists on repeating those views ad infinitum, it is very hard not to challenge them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:16 AM

I prefer to challenge WAV on some of his more outrageous claims of musical issues. He can have all the aboriginal and Native American friends on myspace he wants, but he somehow (because he has never answered this point to me)believes that music has border checkpoints, that there is no cross pollinization, something which I believe Don Firth also pointed out. WAV has what he feels should be the strictest of all rules for English traditional music, yet he ignores the wise advice given to him by professional musicians who have countered his assertions. Again to WAV I quote Dave Swarbrick-you can do anything you want with music, it doesn't mind. That's the policy I stick with when I here such rigidity from the mind of WAV. Enjoy the music, promote it, share it with others. But to govern it WAV? Sorry, but I don't think it needs your type of governance.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM

Also a valid point Irishenglish, but one I've read a number of times and not just from you. Maybe he just is not interested in your opinion.

He has shared his opinions you all have shared yours with him. I'm not an expert myself, but I'm fairly confident that his musical ability is not such that droves of young musicians will be emulating him and following him like some pied piper of musical values. So maybe its time to let that subject drop as well.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:56 AM

My last post to any of your threads for any reason at any time.

WAV, I believe you are exactly what I have said and you cloak it in the aura of something else. You say otherwise but I don't believe it.

I'm off your self aggrandizing threads for good.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

No offense Jack, but its not up to you to tell me to drop the subject. I'll keep trying to prod answers out of WAV, and whether you seek to read the process is up to you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:07 AM

No offense taken by be no offense meant to you. I'm just asking nicely, make your point once, or ten thousand times, its up to you. You are doing nothing wrong. It just seems tedious to me, and pointless, thats all. It looks like talking to a wall.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM

Ruth - as I've said before, you're someone who doesn't like immigration being questioned, so you try and label anyone who does as a bigot or a racist. And, when they give genuine non-racist reasons for doing so, you talk about what's underlying. Further, if you scroll back, this topic came up again when I frankly answered a question on it again, and my responses are somewhat repetative because the questions/accusations are.
Perhaps everyone who has posted here AGREES on liking our world being multicultural - the dispute is over whether trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law is a good idea, and whether immigration should be more restricted/regulated (I've said via a stronger UN). My concerns are certainly not just over England, by the way, I genuinely don't like moneyed English, Germans, etc. pricing young Spanish couples out of the Spanish property market - and, if I VISIT Spain again as a respectful TOURIST, I'd like another taste of SPANISH culture whilst there, frankly.
"believes that music has border checkpoints"...I believe, IE, there is more-and-more blending of cultures, globalisation, Americanisation; and, as I do like our world being multicultural, I'm at least trying to do something about it - as 50s and 60s folk-club organisers here did when they encouraged/insisted on folks performing music from their own culture.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:24 AM

The reason I haven't given up on WAV (yet) is that I don't believe he's a lost cause. It seems obvious to me that he holds views that are grounded in racism; I'm hoping that something that one of us says will make him realise this and reflect on it, rather than taking his usual approach of redefining 'racist' so that it won't apply to him.

I've also got a personal interest, as my wife's parents were both born a long way away & grew up speaking languages other than English. WAV seems to be saying that it would have been better for English culture if my wife's parents had never come here, in which case she would have been born somewhere else and I'd never have met her. Now, I love English culture, but I also love my wife, and I'm personally affronted by the idea that she's alien to it - she's part of it, just as much as I am.

I'm sure WAV will say that he's not thinking of people like my wife, but I can't see on what basis. If you want fewer foreigners to come here, that must mean you think it was a bad thing that so many foreigners have come here. People like my wife's parents.

So, WAV, a simple question, which you can answer in one word. Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:28 AM

I will say this for the last time, forgetting the race issue, forgetting the migration issue, Culture does not equal nationality. This is a fact.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM

"Ruth - as I've said before, you're someone who doesn't like immigration being questioned, so you try and label anyone who does as a bigot or a racist."

I am happy for real dialogue to take place, WAV, but you are not interested in real dialogue. You repeat the same points endlessly; you try to ringfence music and culture; whenever anyone points out the mistakes you've made in your reasoning, or the factual inaccuracies inherent in your attempt to invent a culturally pure version of Englishness, you ignore them or post yet another link to your website.

You do not approve of immigration to the UK because you feel economically threatened by it, and because you are afraid of English culture being damaged or diluted by the presence of other cultures. Read the OED definition again, WAV. Regardless of my own feelings on immigration, the dictionary defines this position as a racist one. Your response is to dismiss the OED definition.

There's only one person who's in denial here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:47 AM

Yes, Pip - but the particular country of origin does NOT matter to me (no need for you to list that few), except to say that genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their NEAREST safe country. And not just "cuturally" but socially as well - I believe the cliche of elders that they used to be able to leave their house-doors open. However, the most important thing is, given all the immigration that has occurred world-wide, what's best from now on - which brings us back to my last Weekly Walkabout, among others, "Global Regulationism."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM

Perhaps everyone who has posted here AGREES on liking our world being multicultural

I really don't think there is any realistic prospect of the world becoming monocultural.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:01 AM

"You do not approve of immigration to the UK" (Ruth)...I don't approve of the UK (as mentioned in the "No Football Olympics" below): the UK, The Commonwealth, The EU, etc. should all be dissolved - apart from some local government within nations, all we all need is our own nation and the United Nations. And England should continue to accept it's share of genuine asylum seekers, in line with my last post, and some immigration (medical, love/marriage, etc.) but NOT economic/capitalist immigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM

Yes, Pip - but the particular country of origin does NOT matter to me (no need for you to list that few)

Thanks for answering the question. I listed the countries and regions from which most immigrants have come to England, since about 50 years ago, when mass immigration began in your words.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM

One thing needs to be done in the world, and it would permanently solve the problems that arise from economically-inspired immigration (the movement of vast numbers of people from impoverished areas of he world to richer areas of the world).

That one thing would be to provide a decent standard of living and equally good employment opportunities and equally good social justice to people in every part of the world.

That would be the real solution. That would be the enlightened solution.

It hasn't been attempted, however, because humanity is presently disunited, divided against one another, and ruled by various elites of oligarchs, captains of industry and commerce...robber barons who prefer things just the way they are now...so they can get even richer.

And there is your problem, in a nutshell. We need world liberation from the forces presently running the show.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:23 AM

Nicely avoided, WAV. The POINT of my message was that "You do not approve of immigration to the UK because you feel economically threatened by it, and because you are afraid of English culture being damaged or diluted by the presence of other cultures."

By this criteria, using the OED definition, you are a racist. It is not your "questioning of immigration" which makes you so, it is the grounds upon which that questioning is based.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

.............hmmmnnnnnnnn, that's the trouble with having holidays abroad, there's far too many foreigners there!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM

Actually, Ruth, people are economically threatened when very large numbers of immigrants from impoverished societies come into a wealthier society and are willing to work jobs at a wretchedly low levels of pay and under wretchedly bad conditions.

That kind of thing has always caused great social stress in any society where it occurred, not just in the UK, but everywhere, and it hurts many people (both locals and immigrants)...but it plays into the hands of the employers and industrialists, because:

1. they want to keep wages down
2. they want cheap labour who will put up with bad working conditions
3. they want to keep a certain number of people unemployed at all times, because that puts the public at their mercy, so to speak, and people will then accept marginal employment, low wages, and bad conditions, because they have no choice.

To oppose that sort of thing is natural, and it has nothing to do with racism (although it often results in a racist reaction setting in amongst some local people who aren't very deep thinkers). It has to do with general human rights and workers rights all over the world.

I think you are just becoming emotionally wedded to your own past arguments on this thread to the extent now that you have to prove it to yourself that WAV is a "racist", otherwise your past argument would be "wrong"! And that would trouble your ego, wouldn't it?

On the other hand, maybe WAV is a diabolically clever closet racist who has deliberately set this entire discussion up just so that Ruth and Little Hawk and various other forum members can disagree over it and end up hating each other! ;-) (and now the paranoia REALLY sets in...OUCH!)

Yeah, well, anything's possible, isn't it? I haven't read enough of this thread to be sure about it one way or another, but I don't think it's wise or judicious to label other people as "racists". I really don't. Not unless you are 100 % sure, and maybe not even then.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:15 AM

To oppose that sort of thing is natural, and it has nothing to do with racism

I entirely agree. You're describing opposition to immigration on economic grounds - which isn't racist. WAV is expressing opposition to immigration on cultural grounds - which is.

I don't think it's wise or judicious to label other people as "racists"

If someone expresses what I think are Christian or Marxist or Tory views, I'm quite likely to comment that I think they're a Christian or a Marxist or a Tory. WAV has expressed what I think are racist views.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM

An equal opportunity bigot. Doesn't care WHICH country of origin they come from. Some people target specific groups, you see.

Anyway, WAV, are you or aren't you going to answer my questions?

I just thought of another point. YOu say that immigration is ok in instances such as falling in love on holiday. Ok, I agree, but would the grand UN council you want look at cases in such depth?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:32 AM

Little Hawk, let me make myself even clearer: WAV has always denied being a racist becuase, as he says, "Racism is when you say they are all like this or that." Which is a rather peurile and superficial understanding of the concept from someome who claims anthropological qualifications.

Someone recently posted the OED definition of racism, and because he disagreed with it, WAV dismissed it out of hand. My recent attempts to pin WAV down were based on this definition, not on my own views, as you'll see if you examine my posts more closely. Why? Because I think he needs to examine his own views a bit more deeply, and to realise that racism is more subtle and more nuanced than he really understands.

My ego is irrelevant to this particular argument. I don't think anyone has said anything to prove that WAV is not at least xenophobic, and I believe his cultural insularity and paranoia translate to racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM

Objection to immigration on cultural grounds may or may not be racist, depending on to what extent and in what specific regards you are concerned about cultural issues.

Every population in the world has become annoyed or fearful at one time or another over various troubling cultural issues that arose out of immigration. So what? That happens. It happens everywhere. It happens both ways (in the breasts of both locals and immigrants). It doesn't necessarily indicate that people are "racists", it indicates that they are uncomfortable with customs and behaviours that are unfamiliar to them.

For instance, in Canada the following issue has arisen:

Should Sikh police officers in Canada be allowed to wear a turban instead of the standard police headgear while on duty? (I say "yes, sure, if they want to". Many people say "No, because if they want that job they should be willing to wear the normal uniform.")

That's not a "racist" issue, no matter how you stand on it. It's a cultural issue of what people think is right and proper normal behaviour while on the job. To a traditional Sikh, it's improper not to wear his turban. To the average traditional Canadian non-Sikh, it's improper not to wear the normal police headgear.

Neither one is being racist, but they are both clinging to cultural habits that mean something to them.

I simply don't give a damn one way or the other, so my inclination would be to let Sikhs wear turbans while on duty if they want to. I don't see why it matters...but I am more flexible on traditions than most people are.

You see, it's not that I'm necessarily less racist than they are...it's that I cling less rigidly to established tradition, that's all. To cling to traditions and rules and to expect others to do that also does not equate to being a racist...it simply equates to being somewhat inflexible in an emotional and behavioural sense...and most people are like that.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:38 AM

yes, but what you AREN'T saying, Little Hawk, is that the Sikh police officer shouldn't even be there in the first place because his very presence undermines the indigenous culture.

This , unless I am very much mistaken, is WAV's position.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:55 AM

Okay, well, I don't know if that's his position or not, Ruth.

Maybe we should ask him?

I think it's always wise to keep immigration to a country limited to a certain extent...because too much immigration destabilizes a society...the question is to what extent do you limit it? And that's where people always disagree. Imagine what would happen in the USA, for example, if all of Latin American were simply allowed free access? A civil war, that's what would happen. Millions of people would be at each others' throats, and it would become utter chaos.

I think WAV simply feels that there has been too much immigration into the UK in the last few decades. He may be quite right about that. To feel that there has been too much of something does not equate to being against all of it on principle.

You can have too much of anything. (even dachshunds)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:03 AM

Because WAV refuses to be too specific about his beliefs (referring us instead to his website), there is bound to be some speculation here, LittleHawk. But my interpretation, after many months, is:

- England was better before immigration because it was "more English".

- Ideally, the immigration to England, largely by groups of Asian and Caribbean people, would not have happened

- Cultures should not be encouraged to mix, because the indigenous culture becomes "diluted" and loses its identity.


These views, to me, constitute racism. Especially as nearly 86% of the population, even today, is still White British - hardly a case of the indigenous culture being "swamped" by foreigners.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:11 AM

by the way, once you add in other "white" categories such as Irish, the percentage goes up to 92%.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

Ruth,

If he was talking only about the influx of Irish and Welsh and Scots, would it be racist then?

I think not. I think it might be some sort of cultural chauvinism, but not racism. And since he is talking about keeping the "nations" of the UK separate, then can you really clearly say that it is purely racism.

By the way this is the definition of racism I use. The issues of wage competition seem tangental to it.

racism


Main Entry:
rac·ism
Pronunciation:
\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1933
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
— rac·ist \-sist also -shist\ noun or adjective

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Cultural chauvinism is pretty much universal, isn't it? When it passes a certain extreme point, though, then people may characterize it as "racism"...and sometimes that label is appropriate...but more often, it is not.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

Da ting about newfies is dat haldough dey don't want dere culture polluted dey don't worry cause da weder keeps da himmigunts haway.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

"One thing needs to be done in the world, and it would permanently solve the problems that arise from economically-inspired immigration (the movement of vast numbers of people from impoverished areas of he world to richer areas of the world).

That one thing would be to provide a decent standard of living and equally good employment opportunities and equally good social justice to people in every part of the world.

That would be the real solution. That would be the enlightened solution.

It hasn't been attempted, however, because humanity is presently disunited, divided against one another, and ruled by various elites of oligarchs, captains of industry and commerce...robber barons who prefer things just the way they are now...so they can get even richer.

And there is your problem, in a nutshell. We need world liberation from the forces presently running the show."...I agree LH - except we need regualtionism NOT liberalism to reduce the inequality within and between nations.

"and I believe his cultural insularity and paranoia translate to racism." ("Ruth")...I've travelled through about 40 countries - on a shoestring, staying among the people and NOT in Hiltons like many so-called "world leaders".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

Better believe it. Lard t'underin' Jaysus, hit gets cold and damp over dere in Newfieland!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

I was thinking the same think JtS. French and German are not races but VAV does not want them in England either. I think he has built himself a very small box and thinks the rest of us should live in small boxes as well but I don't think he is necessarily racist.

I do have a question for WAV. I live in the middle of the USA. My ancestors came here from England, Scotland and Germany anywhere from 150 to 350 (or so) years ago. What songs do you think I should sing?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM

If he was talking only about the influx of Irish and Welsh and Scots, would it be racist then?

Yes. He's saying that only one national/ethnic/cultural group belongs in England, and that the presence of other groups is detrimental to English culture. In other words, he's dividing people into racial groups and saying that those racial groups should stay separate.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

I have called him xenophobic as well...use that term if you prefer. It's not any nicer than racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:22 PM

No Pip Radish, those are not separate races those are slightly different cultures at most. Though the attitude he expresses does seem extreme. Would an economic refugee from Newcastle be forced to settle in York or Sheffield or would they be allowed all the way to London. And if so, would they not dilute the culture of whatever part of London they settled in?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

"small box"!? just after I mentioned my (much enjoyed) travels. And, if I were you, KB in Iowa, I'd probably be into performing Country or Rock music. However, I only listen to those American genres, as well as the chants and drums of Amerindians, because I'm an Englishman.
And Pip, can't you at least accept that I am NOT against any ethnic group - I'm questioning the act of immigration itself.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

I meant that you live in a small box. You have demonstrated a willingness to visit other boxes but you want the contents to stay put.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

Upthread a bit, WAV says

"I believe the cliche of elders that they used to be able to leave their house-doors open."

When WAV attributes this to immigration, as to his racism and bigotry, what more does anyone need?

I've heard this exact same reason given for "red-lining" neighborhoods!

If WAV does not consider himself to be a racist (and most racists do not), perhaps a large dose of self-examination is in order.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

And, if I were you, KB in Iowa, I'd probably be into performing Country or Rock music. Would this apply to anyone from the US who is not of Amerindian ancestry?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM

...what music fills your Iowa "box", KB?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

"What songs do you think I should sing?"

I keep asking him the same thing seeing as I have a Welsh mum and English dad.

As is the way with this sort of thing though, why let reality get in the way of a poor argument?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

As someone born in Newfoundland the traditional music I grew up with came from the eight corners of the globe so to speak. Our sailors and workers venturing forth and returning home and other sailors visiting our ports brought and spread our music all over the world. My box was the world and modern broadcast media made it even more so.

That's a good thing.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM

I don't know WAV. Country derives from bluegrass, which derives from the balladry of English and Irish music originally, so I guess that simply won't do. Rock derives from blues and country, the blues part of that derives from African music, so I guess that simply won't do either. Wait, jazz-no, that comes from a similar source to blues. Cajun, no that derives from Acadia, so thats out. I've got it! The only musical form us Americans, (and this goes for my Canadian friends as well!) can properly play is Native American music. Oh, but wait a sec. I'm not native american. My ancestry comes from Ireland. Oh crap! I can't play music here because following what WAV said , " many reading this will know as well or better than I the perform-your-own policies of 50s and 60s folk-clubs here" then ANY attempt at my singing anything will be tantamount to neglection of the one, truest form of American indigenous music, that being Native American. So WAV, thanks for clearing that up.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

You like me, Stigweard, should perform E. trads plus hymns and, perhaps, have a go at the works of some of our classical composers; further, if you ever visit Beijing, you may, again like me, wish to try Peking duck - apparently some of the Oympic swimmers have done very well on it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

those are not separate races those are slightly different cultures at most

Racism isn't based on biologically real 'races' (not least because there aren't any). There's no Irish 'race', but "dis tick Paddy" jokes are still racist.

can't you at least accept that I am NOT against any ethnic group

That's exactly what I can't accept - because if it were true you wouldn't have the views that you do. If my neighbour told me they wished I'd never moved to their street, I'd conclude that they disliked me - even if they tried to tell me otherwise. If someone says they try to avoid working with Jews, I conclude that they're prejudiced against Jews - even if they say they're not. And if someone says they wish non-English people hadn't come to England, I conclude that they're prejudiced against people with a non-English background *in* England.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

Don makes an excellent point:

'Upthread a bit, WAV says

"I believe the cliche of elders that they used to be able to leave their house-doors open."

When WAV attributes this to immigration, as to his racism and bigotry, what more does anyone need?'

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

I keep stessing Pip - given all the immigration that has occurred all around the world, what is best FROM NOW ON?; and I'm sure it should be restricted, by the UN, much more than the status quo - including making FUTURE economic/capitalist immigration/emigration illegal. (And the USA could set a good example toward this by ending the Green Card lottery scheme.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

WAV, on the one hand you believe,

" And England should continue to accept it's share of genuine asylum seekers, in line with my last post, and some immigration (medical, love/marriage, etc.) but NOT economic/capitalist immigration."

And on the other you believe,

" that genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their NEAREST safe country. And not just "cuturally" but socially as well."

That's a contradiction. So which is it, and what do you mean by the nearest safe country? Haitians should be returned to what, the Dominican Republic? Western Saharans should be returned to...Spa...I mean Moro...oh no, Mauritania, yes thats it. So if I was to venture a guess, I would say you are saying that asylum seekers who have been persecuted for political, religous, or sexual grounds, rather than economic grounds are acceptable. Except when, for some reason (and here's the contradiction) they are not, in which case they should be helped to their nearest safe country, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Keep in mind, I'm only discussing your notions of genuine asylum seekers here, not immigration. You made the distinction, so keep it confined to that. Please, tell me on what possible basis and precedent do you have for thinking the "nearest safe country" is a viable option? Give me an example. It does not seem grounded in any sense of reality. Its a nice notion perhaps, but its not at all likely. What if what you propose as the "nearest safe country" doesn't want asylum seekers. What if the UN deemed that the UK would be the nearest safe country for all the South Ossetians and Georgians left homeless, right now as we speak? What if unspeakable human rights violations were happening in a Commonwealth nation. Wouldn't that make Britain the de facto nearest safe nation?

Also regarding what you said about immigration, what you label economic/capitalist immigration. I'll not even discuss that one, but I find your use of economic/capitalist interesting. Call me crazy, but I've never heard of an immigrant from lets say, Guatemala, consider their act of immigration capitalist. For economic reasons, of course, but capitalist? I can't make a living here in Guatemala, so I'm going to the US for capitalist reasons. Doesn't scan.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:30 PM

"I have called him xenophobic as well...use that term if you prefer. It's not any nicer than racism."

True, Ruth, but you have not called him apoplectic, tandependentious or nihilistic yet, and I, for one, am relieved about that.

Would anyone mind if I attempt to bring dachshunds into the discussion at some point? (anyone except Spaw, that is, but I gather he's boycotting this thread now anyway, so never mind)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

When you hear someone say, "I'm not a racist, but—," you know bloody well that they are a racist.

At the university I met exchange students from all over the world, some of whom stayed here after completing their schooling. I got the Arab slant on the Arab-Israeli conflict from a young Egyptian. I first heard sitar music played by Nazir Jairazbhoy one afternoon and saw a sitar for the first time. He later did a record for Ethnic-Folkways. Nazir didn't stay in the U. S. He wanted to work on his musical skills, so he went to where he felt the best sitar teachers were to be found:   London. Deb Das, also from India, had one of the most brilliant minds I've ever encountered. We spent hours talking politics and philosophy. And there were others.

Good friends of my wife's and mine are Hieu, his wife Tang, and their son Long. They're from Vietnam. Hieu is a chef. Brilliant. When he lays out a meal, in addition to being an exquisite adventure in flavors, it is a work of art. We also have a couple of friends from Bali.

In the building in which we live, there are two Chinese (one a doctor, the other a student), a young Belgian woman, and Simon, upstairs, who is from South Africa.

A tiny sampling of the immigrants to this country who have greatly enriched my life.

In fact, I went to broadcasting school with a young man from England. He was working hard to get rid of his English accent and sound like an American announcer. I encouraged him to keep his English accent because it would set him apart and could be a sort of trademark for him.

Almost forgot. I also went to university with a lovely young English girl named Phyllis Brooks. Absolutely charming!

Seattle is a real "melting-pot" of different nationalities and cultures. I feel privileged to live in such a city.

I have traveled, but I have a lot of it right here. I don't have to go "Walkabout."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

Don, how many times have I pointed out on this forum that virtually everyone has some racist tendencies?

(That's a rhetorical question.)

Now, how do we decide who is to be called a racist and who is not to be? I'll tell you how. We decide, in our inveterate self-righteousness that WE ourselves are above such criticism...ah, yes, lily-white and spotless in our idealism...but someone else is not...and we call him a "racist".

Let (s)he who is without "sin" cast the first stone. No one here qualifies to do that to another person here in that fashion. That's why I object to it. It's like calling someone a "witch" in Salem.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

I dunno, LittleHawk...when someone repeatedly and dogmatically presents their blueprint for a new world order, constantly drawing attention to their writings on the subject and endlessly starting threads so that these very views can be expressed (English instruments, English folk awards, English music etc), they are inviting others to engage with and judge those views. If others find those views dubious, and see within them an inherent racism, why should they not respond accordingly?

That's not the same as crying "racist" every time someone expresses an opinion you don't agree with.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:06 PM

given all the immigration that has occurred all around the world, what is best FROM NOW ON?; and I'm sure it should be restricted

You've conceded that you believe less immigration would have been better, so it's not just about FROM NOW ON. I'm sure you don't bear any malice towards actual English people of immigrant stock, but your starting-point is still "you're OK, but I wish you hadn't come here" - or, at the very least,"you're OK, but we don't want any more of your kind here".

You believe immigration should be restricted so that different cultures don't mix. You believe that native cultures shouldn't mix with immigrant cultures, and that native cultures will suffer if they do, and that people's freedom of movement should be restricted so as to stop this happening. You've spelt all this out many times.

What you've never explained is how this viewpoint is compatible with not being a racist. Here's that OED definition, in full this time:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

LH: I'm well aware that I have racist views; I grew up in the 1970s, when a certain level of racism was taken for granted, and you never entirely leave the attitudes you grow up with behind. For that reason, if someone does call me out on a turn of phrase or a way of thinking which they think is racist, I take it seriously and think hard about it. That's all I'm asking WAV to do.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:37 PM

". . . virtually everyone has some racist tendencies. . . ."

That is a opinion and a generalization on your part, Little Hawk. But even if true, there are those who do not act on it, nor do they base their political beliefs and social actions and activities on whatever residual racism they may hold. And when and if they do find it in themselves, it becomes a matter for some heavy soul-searching.

There are othes, however, who would have us all act on their racist views.

Even the United Nations!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:46 PM

And that sort of thing demands a response.

I don't know who said it, but it's true. "All it takes for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing."

'Scuse me for getting my dander up, but them's my sediments!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:01 PM

I understand what you're saying, Don, Ruth, and Pip...

I guess I haven't read enough of WAV's stuff to be sure of what all he is saying. Haven't got time to, actually. Well, maybe in a bit.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:44 PM

I would find it interesting, by the way, to just discuss immigration in a general sense, and see what people think about it.

As things are now in the world, immigration already IS quite restricted. It's not easy in the least to get into most countries as a permanent immigrant. You have to satisfy numerous conditions.

One thing does make it easy, though. If you're rich enough, almost anyone will take you as an immigrant. ;-)

And that is unjust. But it's pragmatic, of course.

Now, here's the basic problem in the world: gross economic inequality. That is the engine that drives millions of people to seek to emigrate. Secondarily, many people wish to emigrate because their countries are dangerous, and their lives are insecure.

THAT is the essential problem.

A real solution to the world's dilemmas does not lie in tinkering with immigration laws, it lies in establishing peace in the international community, and achieving social and economic justice.

The USA today spends over half of the entire world's arms expenditures? To do what? To fight wars on the soil of unfortunate nations, that's what. The UK, Canada, France, Russia, and many other countries also are major participants in arms production and directly or indirectly contributing to maintaining a world at war.

That is the great issue of our time, not our troubles with immigration.

It is the moral bankruptcy of those WITH the most money and power which is destabilizing the whole world, because they are making no serious attempt to achieve either peace or economic and social justice in the world.

Now...if we had peace in the world, and if we had a reasonably good standard of living all over the world, then that in itself would solve the problem of immigration. People would not need to emigrate to secure a safe and prosperous existence, and most would be happy to remain on the land they were born on under that circumstance.

But no nation is seriously addressing that. And therein lies the hypocrisy of our times.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Amen to that, Little Hawk!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:11 AM

Everything you've said is spot on, LittleHawk. Sometimes governments stir up immigration (and other) paranoia as a smokescreen to hide the real issues, which are vast.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:43 AM

To IE - genuine asylum seekers should be helped, via the UN, to their NEAREST (particularly in terms of CULTURE) safe country. And the way the world is now, with almost global capitalism, one can say either capitalist or economic immigration/emigration.
To Don - via TV, I've seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA; and, on my travels, I've also had some friendship from most of those ethnic groups you mention. I'll say it until I'm hoarse - there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being racist.
And, to Pip, I think within a nation there should be assimilation or "blending" as you put it - without losing respect for indigenous cultures.
And the last couple of posts bring us back to capitalism and my last Weekly Walkabout - "Global Regulationism" instead of capitalism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM

To avoid polluting the Ian Campbell thread, I'm moving this down here:

From Les in Chorlton:
"As Ruth alludes Ian's sons were singers / guitarist in the mighty UB40 one of the most important bands ever to come out of anywhere. Named after Unemployment Benefit form 40 they wrote and performed music that recorded and damned the Thatcherite policies of the 1980s that condemned millions of people to a life of poverty without work. UB40 are a collection of African-Caribbean and white brummy musicians who more or less created a new musical genre. Although a very long way from TICFG they created music that was exciting and said what needed to be said about the lives of us all and so had a link to the traditional music of this country.



Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:03 AM

Les: just for the record, he has two other sons who weren't in UB40 as well...both have recorded with him.

I knew Ian and Lorna for a while in the early 90s in Birmingham. I didn't know he had moved to Ireland, either.

I remember going to Ian's album launch in Digbeth in around 1992, and their mum, who I think had come down from Scotland specially, singing A Bunch of Thyme. Lovely.


Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM

Like Ewan MacColl, I think Ian has a great gritty folk voice; but it's a shame if his sons have indeed gone into American pop rather than English folk.

Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:01 AM

" it's a shame if his sons have indeed gone into American pop rather than English folk."

UB40 were an English Reggae band. as the band itself was mixed race, there was no better expression of the musical and cultural values of Birmingham in the 1980s, and they went on to be one of the biggest-selling bands in the world. And they made some brilliant songs.

Only you, WAV, could find this unfortunate.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:18 AM

I respect, rather, Ruth, musicians who are good at their own culture's music (including the late Bob Marley); The Beatles, by the way, even tried talking with American accents.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 AM

Well, maybe you could explain to me what their "own culture" was in respect of UB40: they grew up in Balsall Heath in Birmingham, in a very culturally diverse neighbourhood. Their father is a Scot who was living in England. So what was their culture - the one they saw all around them (made up of African Caribbean music, food cultures etc), the folk music their father played, which he wrote while living in England, or the music of his native Scotland, which formed part of their heritage?

See, when you're dealing with real life, WAV, it's not so eay to fit people into little boxes.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:44 AM

I'll say it until I'm hoarse - there IS a difference between questioning immigration and being racist.

WAV, nobody here denies that. However, there is no difference between questioning immigration on racist grounds and being racist. I believe the grounds on which you oppose immigration are racist, and I've tried to explain to you why I think that. You seem to be unable to see your arguments as others see them.

I think within a nation there should be assimilation or "blending" as you put it - without losing respect for indigenous cultures.

I didn't use the word 'blending'! One more time:

You believe immigration should be restricted so that different cultures don't mix. You believe that native cultures shouldn't mix with immigrant cultures, and that native cultures will suffer if they do, and that people's freedom of movement should be restricted so as to stop this happening. You've spelt all this out many times.

What you've never explained is how this viewpoint is compatible with not being a racist. Here's that OED definition, in full this time:

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

Please quote what I actually write the next time - it'll make it much easier to see what you agree or disagree with.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:02 AM

>>You seem to be unable to see your arguments as others see them.

Pip could that charge be leveled at you? I don't see the racism in his arguments. I see misguided (in my opinion) cultural chauvinism certainly, but not racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:14 AM

I dunno, Jack - if you go back over the numerous threads started by WAV which eventually end up being about his cultural isolationism, you'll find that many Mudcatters in recent months have perceived WAV's views exactly as Pip doe.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:43 AM

Is there no room for miscommunication here? It that the Merriam-Webster or the OED definition of racist?





;-D
Will that be the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:47 AM

Whatever. I know what I think, and it's based purely on the views that he has repeatedly expressed.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:48 AM

300 !!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:58 AM

Pip could that charge be leveled at you?

No, absolutely not. I see every side of all my arguments, including the sides that other people see and I don't. Except that I do see them, because I see every side of my arguments, as I said to begin with.

Seriously, I take your point! I may be seeing racism where it's not there. On the other hand, I know that it's possible not to see racism when it is there - particularly in one's own views.

The way it works with WAV, I think, is that he doesn't see the implications of the views he proclaims. WAV hasn't said that he'd like to make my wife take an Englishness test and deport her if she fails - in fact I'm sure he'd recoil from the idea - but it's the logical implication of his views. If you believe 'mass immigration' was bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here. If you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

If, on the other hand, all you're saying is that indigenous cultures (including English cultures) should be respected, then (a) I agree with you 100% and (b what you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with immigration, which you can therefore shut up about.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:04 AM

I donno Pip, you seem to be reading a lot into his words that he did not intend. That seems like miscommunication to me.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:09 AM

"You like me, Stigweard, should perform E. trads plus hymns and, perhaps, have a go at the works of some of our classical composers;"

Well, I did ask for it, and at least you've replied WAV, so thanks.

But why should I perform English trad? I don't mind it, and I love the singing of the Watersons, Coppers et al, but it doesn't float my boat like the Irish stuff does.

What about my Welsh heritage? Should I abandon that completely? Although born and brought up in England the Welsh side of my family had a deep formative influence. In fact, that sense of being Welsh was a tangible part of our upbringing and although many Welsh people might disagree with me in my soul I feel as Welsh as I do English.

As for the hymns, forget it. I enjoy singing hymns for their own sake but to me monotheism is an anathema and I don't see why I should worship a God who has contributed to the suffering of so many of my ancestors and people in the world today.

I'll stick with 'Fathom the Bowl' and 'Follow me up to Carlow'.

Twll dy din de!

stigweard

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:11 AM

Once again WAV,

To IE - genuine asylum seekers should be helped, via the UN, to their NEAREST (particularly in terms of CULTURE) safe country. And the way the world is now, with almost global capitalism, one can say either capitalist or economic immigration/emigration

This is nothing resembling an answer to what I wrote. I asked you to give me an example, you have none forthcoming-I think because you honestly do not have an actual answer. That's why you quote verbatim again and again. You who espouse so much, cannot give me an answer. I also caught you with a contradiction. Your own words. Two different statements regarding what you call genuine asylum seekers. You're not even going to defend that, or explain that?

Myself, and LH, and Ruth, Pip, Don, and all the others can reflect and answer direct questions in a thorough and thought provoking manner. YOUR ANSWER TO MY QUESTION WAS THE SUBJECT OF MY QUESTION! Sorry for the caps, but that is a cop-out.
Answer please for me, the sensible questions asked of you by myself and others without resorting to a cut and paste job.

By the way Jack, that was never 5 minutes!
I told you, I can't argue with you unless you've paid!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

IE, that's not argument, it's just contradiction. :)

Is Fathom the Bowl Irish...?

Off to Whitby now. I hope Louis Killen sings some Irish songs. Play nicely...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:56 AM

Sorry Pip - you said "mix" not "blend" and I - and even, to a lesser extent, New (Scottish) Labour, after a decade of pro-immigrationism/celebrating the diverse state - say assimilation and greater restriction/regulation of immigration: for several (NOT one, as you just suggested) reasons (above and here).
"cultural chauvinism" (Jack!)...that's NOT me either - I love the world being multiculatural and cetainly don't want what some Victorians may have - a world full of English-like men and women.
"cultural isolationism" (Ruth)...that's NOT me either - I'm saying fair-trade and eco-travel between nations (such as my 40 countries).
Stigweard - you clearly see yourself as Bittish and I as English. By the way, another reason for RESTRICTING myself to an English (or thereabouts) repertoire is because there is just so much good folk music out there, and I have only so much time and ability; however, my main one is that I think nationalism WITHOUT imperialism (e.g., English NOT Brittish) is good for humanity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

What's wrong WAV-no answer for me?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:20 AM

How is reggae American, or is that your shorthand for 'music I don't like', WAV?

Has anyone seen the French film The Adventures of Rabbi Jacob?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:48 AM

"What's wrong WAV-no answer for me?" (IE)...there was no contradiction and I DID explain what I meant by "nearest"...then you went on about "returning" which I hadn't said anything about.
And, Ruth, I never said reggae was American, either - but it's from the Caribbean, which is part of the Americas.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM

What was nearest for a Jew in the 1930s?

Sounds like one of two possibilities. One, either you have no idea what UB40 plays and thus spoke out of ignorance, or two, you were saying that reggae is American.

"Subject: RE: Ian Campbell to retire
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:15 AM

Like Ewan MacColl, I think Ian has a great gritty folk voice; but it's a shame if his sons have indeed gone into American pop rather than English folk."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:22 AM

Volgadon...I seem to recall someone had mentioned 2 sons in a pop band, and pop is one of the American genres of music. "What was nearest for a Jew in the 1930s?"...That would depend, and I think you would know more about that than me, frankly, but do you agree that, after the war, the Jewish people probably should have been given their own nation within Europe?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:31 AM

"but do you agree that, after the war, the Jewish people probably should have been given their own nation within Europe? "

What the f***? There were Jewish Germans, Jewish Poles, Jewish etc etc, not just Jews.

And what country does 'folk' belong to? Oh, sorry, none of them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:47 AM

So, you admit to not even knowing what the sons were playing. Various forms of American music are only part of the influences hat made up pop. I would go so far as to say that pop owes just as much to Britain as it does to the USA.
To my ears, this really doesn't sound very American at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQAR-nx4w88
Or this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J3gX47rHGg&feature=related

So, if the Jews were given their own nation within Europe, where does that leave the Jews of Morroco, Algiera, Kurdistan and Yemen, to name but a few?
And no, I don't agree that they should have been given a nation within Europe.
Anyway, what would it depend on?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

That's pedantic bullshit WAV. Helped-Returned. Either way you are saying that genuine asylum seekers should be brought to another place nearest to where they are from-correct? There absolutely IS contradiction in the two statements you made that I quoted. England should continue to accept its share of genuine asylum seekers AND genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their nearest safe country. CONTRADICTION. Examples? Where have you explained what you mean by nearest? I asked for a specific example-you offered me none. You answered my question with the question itself. THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER. How about this then. I'll answer the question. You can't answer my questions because you don't know the answers. Theories are fine, I have my own. But if you cannot, or are unwilling to back them up with precedent, then you will not convince me of anything. I repeat-ANYTHING.

And Volgadon and Joseph are spot on regarding a post war European Jewish nation WAV. Maybe the Gypsy's should have been given a European nation too WAV. Lets see, you have Gypsies from Romania, Hungary, Spain, France....oh yeah, that makes complete sense. After all, they are all Gypsy's right? They all should be placed together.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM

I ... say assimilation and greater restriction/regulation of immigration

And around we go again. Some way up thread, I asked you "Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?" You answered "Yes".

Now, if you believe 'mass immigration' has been bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here: there's no other way to limit immigration. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

What am I missing? How am I misinterpreting you?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

Volgadon, I seem to recall, now lives in Israel, having left Europe and this, along with other things posted, tells me that she (I think?) probably does know more about this than me, as said; but a lot of people from Europe (from many lands as you say, Joseph) who practice the Jewish religion left to settle in Israel, where there has sadly been a lot of ethnic conflict, over land, since.
You're missing the "given that all that immigration has occurred, WHAT'S BEST FROM NOW ON" part, Pip.
IE - I said, repeatedly, culture is the most important aspect when considering the nearest safe country for an asylum seeker.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

If this thread had legs it would be in the Olympics...long distance runners' division. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

So again, I say, give me a hypothetical here WAV. An asylum seeker from Cuba trying to enter the US should be helped to what nearest safe country? Again I ask, what if said nation does not seek, nor want asylum seekers? Again I ask when, since you contradicted yourself, you determine what factors constitute allowable genuine asylum? You are the one who said it, I'm trying to fill in the many blanks you have left. You are saying within your certain rules, in your case England, should allow asylum seekers, but in other cases, a deliberate choice would be made to send an asylum seeker elsewhere. SOmewhere with a similar culture, since you feel that is the most important thing. What if THAT culture exists only within the country someone is fleeing from? Then what? And, like the chicken and the egg, or what is folk, how do YOU propose to define what that culture is? Is it language only? Ancient culture? Music? Cinema? Architecture? Fashion?

Keep digging that hole WAV.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM

B-Zing! B-Zing! B-Zing! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee! B-Zing!

(sound of hamster running furiously on inner mental exercise wheel inside next poster's brain...)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

IE - an Honours in Humanities must be easier than trying to answer your serial questioning...you make some of my BA tutors seem soporific.
1. the nearest Spanish-speaking nation I suppose - I think Fidel himself was in Mexico for a while before his brave successful return.
2. Well it's not the nearest safe country then, is it?
3. the standard factors - threat due to beliefs etc.
4. The UN should take control and determine who and which is the nearest safe country for them.
5. I said nearest NOT the exact same culture!!!
6. It's all those things - WONTS.
7. If I were to "keep digging", I'd hope NOT to end up in your backyard, with all due respect, IE.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

P.S: no cigars, and I don't even know if it got there, but I did send a copy of "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse" to the main library in Havana.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

You're missing the "given that all that immigration has occurred, WHAT'S BEST FROM NOW ON" part, Pip.

You're missing a question you've already answered, WAV. Some way upthread, I asked you "Do you think it would have been better for England, culturally speaking, if immigration from the West Indies, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Uganda had been severely limited?" You answered "Yes".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Yes I said "yes", Pip, and yes I said immigration/emigration regulation/restrictions should increase - the world over, via a stronger UN.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Sorry, but I live in the city. I don't have a backyard, unless Central Park counts. Fidel's brave successful return is not something a lot of Cubans would call it WAV.

Ok, well thanks all the same, because at least that was some clarification. Before you accuse me of being soporific, I would suggest atempting to answer some of the questions put to you, respectfully. What you suggest would also entail a rather large UN infastructure in place, in virtually every nation on earth dedicated solely to this problem. I'm not exaggerating when I say that either. If you want the UN to make these determinations, then there would have to be employees in place to determine who is a viable candidate for asylum-ie, those seeking refuge for their political, religous, and sexual grounds (by this I mean sexual orientation, as well as sexual crime against women). That would have to be a massive infastructure, and it would have to coexist with the border controls already in place in each nation.

Of course, there are people who make that determination now, who do not work for the UN, my aunt is one of them-in her case in Ireland. It's a tough call. I don't know if it has changed, but I know that in Ceuta, there were hundreds of Africans housed in a complex, overseen by the Spanish, who were waiting to get into a EU country. So on top of its own border operations, you had the costs of running this facility as well. I'm all for ideas WAV, and I believe that there is a need for a different approach, but I don't believe your ideas are possible. Nice though they may be, but there is a lot of reality out there that isn't so nice.

I mentioned previously the rather sad plight of the Saharawis, living in camps in Algeria for 30 or so years. I have always hoped for a stronger UN WAV. Despite it all, all the diatrabe that goes on here at Mudcat, including from myself, despite all that, I wish the UN could come up with solutions for situations like that. Sadly, its not the case. What can I do? I can petition for human rights, I can make people aware of political and social strife. I can share my thoughts and feelings and educate, and be educated. The one thing I can't do is profess that I have the answers. No one person does.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:46 PM

pop is one of the American genres of music

Given the truly international input into pop music and its deep roots in African & European cultures, how on earth can you say that it's one of the American genres?

Where's Spleen when you need him? Pop, like Folk, is not a genre, it is a process that has yielded a plethora of distinctive musics - certainly as distinctive & culturally significant as Folk, if not more so. Here's a few names for you to Google: Magma, Soft Machine, Gong, Univers Zero, Sigur Ros, David Bowie, Roxy Music, Third Ear band, The Man Band, Henry Cow, Jabula, etc. etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

No - I didn't say you were soporific, IE; I lightheartedly suggested you can be quite demanding. I have been to New York and, as well as Central Park, I made a visit to the UN; one thing I remember liking is the idea of one nation/one vote (which, I think you'll agree, both your nation and mine have sadly overridden). And, if it does become stronger/better respected, there will surely be less suffering in our world.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Yes I said "yes", Pip.

OK. So, explain something to me. If you believe 'mass immigration' has been bad for English culture and should have been limited, you must believe that individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here: there's no other way to limit immigration. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here.

Am I right? If not, how am I misinterpreting you?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:12 PM

Yes, Pip - but with some qualifications that I made above, regarding the different kinds of immigration/reasons for emigrating. There are some immigrants in England, e.g., who also think that, FROM NOW ON, restrictions should increase/numbers decrease.
And it's surely silly to say that because something has gone on for so long, it must continue. Slave immigration sadly went on legally for a long time.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM

Volgadon is a he, not from Europe, born and bred in Israel, who spent a few years in Russia just recently. His parents are American, one half of the family isn't Jewish, but of very old Anglo-Scottish extraction, sprinkled with a few Norwegians and Danes. The other half, the Jewish half, mainly came from Czernowitz, an Ukrainian town under Austro-Hungarian rule, next door to Bessarabia. Also to fit into the mix are Pomeranians, Rumanians, Poles, Galicianers, and non-Jewish Danes.
He grew up in a town mainly populated by immigrants from North Africa and Iran, with a fair amount of Yemenites, Kurds and Iraqis and Indians, next door to both an old Jewish Rumanian town, a kibbutz of English and Yiddish speakers, and a Bedouin village. His grandparents lived on a farming community mainly consisting of Moroccans. His sister's babysitter was Persian and she spoke Farsi (long since forgotten) just as soon as she spoke in English and Hebrew. His early childhood coincided with the break-up of the Soviet Union and massive immigration from the USSR. He later moved closer to the Sea of Galilee, an area dotted with churches as well as mosques and synagogues. Not too far are several Jewish settlements, a Bedouin village and an Arab town of Muslims, Christians and Druze. In his area council there is also a Circassian village. The Circassians are from the Caucasus and were resettled here by the Ottomans. In his childhood he grew up with people listening to French and Spanish music, as well as American, British and ethnic things like Yemenite, Greek, Turkish, Persian and Arab music. That, as well as Israeli folksongs. The first song he recalls hearing was Old Maid in the Garrett, being played on the radio. Especially vivid is a childhood visit to the Armenian Quarter in Jerusalem. His parents were friends with a lot of people serving in the UN peacekeeping forces, espcially Austrians and Polynesians.
In the army he served with Caucasians, Georgians and Ethiopians.
Not to blow his own trumpet, but he has met and associated with people from nearly every corner in the world.   
There, a potted culturo-ethnical biography.


So, where was the nearest country, culturally, for a German Jew of Polish extraction, in the 1930s? Intersting question, isn't that?

Out of pure curiosity, why the library in Havanah?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:37 PM

Wow Volgadon-fascinating background! It wasn't until just a few years ago as I got into world music more that I started putting the connections between places and people better. It was through the music that I understood the history better actually. Suddenly everything became linked, and I had a reference point to understand what Andalusian actually is, or Calabrian, or Armenian. That's purely on a musical basis, culture cannot be defined by what are the artificial borders we use now. It has a much broader geographical range, a point I have tried to get WAV to understand.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 03:43 PM

Support, Volgadon - just in case anyone there might like to have a read; as I've made clear, I much prefer a regulated market to a free one, and would agree with Fidel, etc., on quite a lot, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM

Really? Most of Fidel's policies were destructive, both economically AND culturally. Yes, he could get things done, but doesn't mean that he knew what he was doing!

I should also mention that in the local library were several Asterix books, as well as Tove Jansson, and many other writers from around the world. On TV we would get Blinky Bill and Boes,a mong other things. Far from damaging my own culture, it gave me a lot of common ground around Belgians and Ozzies.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

And once again I forgot to emntion that most of the shows on TV back then were British.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

..and I almost forgot that I'll be at the Durham Gathering tomorrow, so here's the next Weekly Walkabout, a tad early...

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:53 PM

A software protocol has now been set up so that each succeeding post to this thread will register as a vote for Chongo Chimp and the APP in November's presidential election.

Post frequently and succinctly! The future of our nation rides on the outcome.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

Not just "our nation", Little Hawk!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

So LH, do this have this thing rigged so non-Canuck votes count? I hope so, vote early and often.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:29 PM

Absolutely! Anyone can vote in this manner. It's time that the world had its collective voice represented this way, I think.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM

One more from me. I'm hoping Chongo can institute a one-world government. Maybe then he can put WAVs ideas into practice.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM

it's surely silly to say that because something has gone on for so long, it must continue. Slave immigration sadly went on legally for a long time.

True - and it would have been better if it had never happened at all. That's precisely the point that I've been trying to get you to acknowledge - that you're opposed, in principle, to the immigration that has already happened.

To recapitulate: you believe that, in order for English culture to flourish, many individual men and women should have been prevented from coming here. And if you think that, then you must think that English culture would be in a better state if those men and women weren't here now.

If someone says "I would rather Mr Jones didn't live next door", it's a safe bet they don't like Mr Jones.

If someone says "I would rather there were fewer hotdog vendors in town", chances are they dislike hotdog vendors.

And if they say "I wish there were fewer people of non-English cultures in this country", it seems to me that they're expressing prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:43 PM

"I've seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA."

I don't deny, and never did, that there have been ethnic conflicts in the USA. But for the most part, those ethnic conflicts have been initiated by small coteries of racists, and within recent years, those who endeavor to start them often find themselves confronted by members of their own ethnic group, who prevent the conflict from developing further.

WAV, you say you have seen terrible ethnic conflict in the USA. Will you kindly enumerate when and where you saw these conflicts? And which particular ethnic groups they were between?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:07 PM

Vote APP in November!

You know you want to. Just do it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:03 AM

"Is Fathom the Bowl Irish...?"

Not as far as I am aware. I should have written this clearer; for me the English have the songs and the Irish have the tunes (although that's a pretty loose interpretation).

"Stigweard - you clearly see yourself as Bittish and I as English"

I certainly bloody don't see myself as British at all. In fact, I would go as far as to say I reject the artifice of 'Britishness' utterly, in the same way I reject the Union Jack as being my flag and I reject those sponging gits in Buck Pal as having any right to rule over me or me any obligation to loyalty to them, or their useless political onanists in Westminster as representing me in any way, shape or form.

During the last ice age, a group of people crossed the land bridge from the continent and decided to settle in the green and pleasant land they found. After the ice melted they realised they lived on a fine set of islands with cool green forests, high mountains and deep blue lakes. There were no borders, countries or accents, and everyone got on just fine. They loved the land, the animals and above all the music they heard around them - the melodys played by the running of the streams and becks, the vast sweeping cadences of the winds caressing the hills, fells and mountains and the rhythm of the rooks wing beating home to the roost as the day draws to a close.

These people, who went on to populate all the many islands of the archipeligo were the ancestors of stigweard, who still delights in the music and stories of these Isles he calls home, whose diverse traditions are the musical heritage his ancestors have handed him.

So nadgers to nationalism and petty prejudices - they're to be thundered against wherever they crop up; all they do is demonstrate the small-mindedness and myopic view of the worst sort of parochialism . People have been coming here for over 14,000 years contributing to our individual and shared cultures - long may they continue to do so.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:35 AM

I'm hoping Chongo can institute a one-word government.


Ook!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

He's working on that. Just wait till you hear the APP cheering section at football games.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 03:02 PM

I just got back from the Folkworks Durham Gathering and, as usual, I have no problem with the quality but am disappointed by the selection - of tutors and tunes. I thought, as I caught the train home, that when something similar is held in Scotland there's no way it would have such an amount of English culture (and I agree with them). Accordingly, if you'll pardon the pun, I agree with Stigweard on monarchism itself, at least.
Don - I think you'll agree that normally I'm quite frank, but the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary; but you agree that, whilst respecting land rights, as above, it's good for Americans to see themselves as Americans - it's Americanisation/globalisation that I'm against, as part of my multicultural world argument.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 04:56 PM

the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary

I think that's for Don to decide.

Word to the wise, David. You're not coming across as principled and aloof - just shifty and evasive.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:08 PM

WAV, you seem to be incapable of answering a direct question.

I do not agree that "the details you asked for, in this case, are not necessary." You made an assertion. Now back it up.

And lest you think otherwise, I most definitely do not agree that "it's good for Americans to see themselves as Americans." Nationalistic claptrap of all flavors is one of the major causes of strife in this world, and the sooner we get rid of it, the better chance the people of this planet will have to survive into the 22nd century and possibly even beyond.

I echo the general sentiments expressed by stigweard just above.

I am a human, and an inhabitant of the Planet Earth. When and if other intelligences are found in the Cosmos, I shall broaden even that categorization. Nationalism, racism, and, for that matter, even speciesism can be carried much too far, with sometimes disastrous results—as we keep seeing!

Constantly saying "I'm proud to be an American" or "I'm proud to be English," or "I'm proud to be (whatever)," implies that you may not have much else to be proud of.

A rather pathetic state of affairs, really. Have your ever read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM

Okay - the event that made the news several nights in a row, in Aus., before I repatriated, was the ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s, I think. I was there later that decade when, thankfully, it had calmed down, and, for what it's worth, I got okay with people there, on my visit.
Also, nationalism with conquest IS BAD, but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN, is good for humanity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM

". . . ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s. . . ."

I recall about that time a small neo-Nazi group wanting to hold a parade in a town in the state of Idaho, but this was opposed by other citizens of the town. So where in California was this ethnic conflict? And between which ethnic groups? And what was the nature of the conflict?

I agree that nationalism with conquest is bad. But oftentimes free-floating nationalism carries an implication of "We're better than they are," and this, in turn, can eventually lead to attempted conquest. "We (being better people) deserve their resources more than they do!"

Yes, eco-travel and fair trade are to be encouraged. But why via the United Nations?

The U. N. is not a tourist bureau. And regulating the movements of people, whether individually or in groups, is not the function of the U. N., nor should it be.

The U. N. has fallen short of what it was originally intended to be, largely because of the selfish nationalistic interests of some of its member states. The disputes the U. N. often tries to deal with the most generally occur over matters of human rights, frequently the way some nations treat their own people, especially ethnic minorities who have as much of a historical right to be there than the majority of the country's population.

The U. N. already has plenty on its plate to deal with. It has more important things to do than play tourist agent for eco-travelers.

WAV, learn something about the United Nations.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:12 PM

Don, I get the strong impression that you're looking for more things to disagree with WAV about, just because you've already been disagreeing with him for quite awhile now.

I see a lot of that on Mudcat threads. It becomes like a dog barking at his own echo after awhile.

How about taking a little break? There must be something you two could agree on as well, surely?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

Just a quick note to one and all on this thread.

If you want to read some real thoughts, beautifully written, intelligent, and image laden......thoughts that may make you think but are not laced with the willy-nilly bullshit and racist bigotry of this trash (my sincere opinion and not an attack), I suggest you try out Peter T. who has decided to return his classic "Thought for the Day" threads that were once a daily fixture of the 'Cat.

Unlike this junk they are topical and not posted elsewhere. If you want to read Wavygravy crap go to the Wavygravy crap site but if you are looking for something far better Click Here

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM

I appreciate your sentiments as a peacemaker, Little Hawk, but I believe I've already adequately explained myself (quoting Edmind Burke in the process). By the way, why single out me? You will note that I am not the only one who is opposed to WAV's continued efforts to persuade others to his narrow views. And I have already agreed with a few things he has said (re: eco-tourism and free trade).

Something to contemplate:   I believe it was the poet Dante who, in his Inferno, said that the lowest rung in Hell is reserved for those who, in time of disagreement over a moral issue, maintain an aloof "colorless neutrality."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:30 PM

By the way, the nature of the "ethnic conflict in California, in the early 90s."

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:49 PM

It's not that I'm singling you out particularly, Don, yours was just the latest post devoted to arguing with WAV when I happened to take a look today. Nothing more to it than that.

I am not engaging in colorless neutrality here. I am observing something which I think is rather obsessive-compulsive and which goes on here on Mudcat all the time: people endlessly wrangling with other people over various things which are never going to be resolved, because their resolution would require someone submitting himself finally to the will of another and admitting that he is "wrong", in effect surrendering unconditionally...and most people simply are not willing to do that (for obvious psychological reasons).

Nor are countries...unless forced to by violence.

This is not a war, however, it's a conversation. Nothing is at stake here except some illusory sense of triumph for someone's ego because they just managed to argue someone else into submission (or so they think).

To note this is not to strike a pose of "neutrality" in the argument. It is to observe and comment upon the frailties of the human ego.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:32 PM

Little Hawk, I don't think taking a position on a moral issue is merely "some illusory sense of triumph for someone's ego because they just managed to argue someone else into submission (or so they think)."

My ego is perfectly intact, thank you. Were I in need of an ego-boost, there are far more reliable ways for me to acquire it than what I am attempting here. You see, I have no hope of changing David Franks' mind. I think he's too far gone. But I would urge those who might be persuaded by him to think very carefully.

I'm sure there were people who got tired of Pastor Martin Niemoller's sermons ("First, they came. . . ."), but if more people had needed what he was saying, it might have made a great deal of difference in the history of the modern world.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:36 PM

And, there is considerably more "at stake" here than merely winning an argument.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

Don, I think that your sermons to WAV are not going to make any difference in the history of the modern world.

And neither are his responses to you. And neither are my comments either. We are all just keeping our restless little minds busy here for a few more minutes, because the human mind is like a dog chewing on a bone...it can't resist...and I know it.

Therefore I do not take it terribly seriously, but I am perennially interested anyway in people's minds, hearts, and souls...the working of their inner psychology, because I fine that interesting in its own right. Period. And that's why I comment upon it.

Not because my comment is important. Not because I think it will change anything or anyone. Just because I find the subject interesting. That's good enough.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:09 PM

I admire your ability to remain above it all.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:06 PM

Sorry, Little Hawk. That was a bit snide.

However, when you go into this mode, you do have a tendency to act like a scientist commenting on the behavior of bacteria in a Petri dish.

Rather off-putting in its air of superiority, really.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 12:04 AM

Well....I don't actually feel superior, Don. I'm just saying in all honesty how I truly see it (these lengthy personal arguments here), that's all. I think we're all just keeping our restless minds busy here, and I say that in all humility. I'm no better than you or WAV or anyone else.

I don't know you well enough to have any reason to feel superior to you. I don't know anyone here well enough to have any reason to feel superior to them. Honestly. I do know that some people here are crueler than me or harder than me or stronger than me in some way (and others not), but there are probably reasons why in every case, reasons that I'll never know.

I think the only people I've ever seriously felt superior to or been tempted to are some I've known for many years face to face...mostly close relatives or perhaps a lover or two. (and that's a case of that old demon "familiarity breeds contempt" in action).

I'm not really superior to them either. I'm just different in some way, and our rough edges have bugged the hell out of each other over the years because life brought us together closely, and we couldn't avoid it.

The only thing that I think actually matters is love. We hunger for it all our lives. We grow bitter over love denied, love withheld, love reached for but not grasped. We cling to what little love we have actualized.

I figure at the end of my life that none of the debates and arguments will matter. They'll fade into nothing. Only what love I was able to give and receive will count for anything in the end.

It troubles me to see endless arguments fester between people, because I feel that someone is getting hurt. That's mainly why I don't like it. It's not that I'm observing it like I was looking at germs in a petrie dish. It's not detachment. It's that I think people are getting hurt, and probably unnecessarily.

In other words, I empathize with anyone who is in pain. I always did. The people I get truly angry with are those who delight in causing another's pain. Mercy is a mighty thing. So is compassion. So is forgiveness. Revenge is a simply dreadful thing.

I'm not officially a Christian, not officially of any religion, but I profoundly believe what Jesus taught about mercy, compassion, and not judging others. I try to live that way as best I can. I fall somewhat short, of course, like most people, but I try. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:15 AM

Let me try this again......Just a quick note to one and all on this thread.



If you want to read some real thoughts, beautifully written, intelligent, and image laden......thoughts that may make you think but are not laced with the willy-nilly bullshit and racist bigotry of this trash (my sincere opinion and not an attack), I suggest you try out Peter T. who has decided to return his classic "Thought for the Day" threads that were once a daily fixture of the 'Cat.



Unlike this junk they are topical and not posted elsewhere. If you want to read Wavygravy crap go to the Wavygravy crap site but if you are looking for something far better Click Here



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:31 AM

Thought for the day

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:41 AM

Catspaw49,

About the only people currently posting to this thread who are not arguing with Walkabout are You, me, Carol and Walkabout. Are you inviting these people to go argue with PeterT? Why are you so concerned with breaking up a 370 post argument? Is it a Monty Python thing?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:52 AM

So, uh, what's this thread about? In ten words or less--(I know that it's fewer, but really I just don't care). I want to sleep before my 62 birthday and I'm 60 now, so I don't have time to read it all.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:43 AM

Its about 365+ posts of complete crappola Peace. If you're looking for good thoughts, try Peter T.'s return of his Thought For The Day threads.

This thread is similar in idea and concept but comparing Peter's writings to WalksaboutVerse's bigoted ramblings and rationalizations is the difference between sipping tea at twilight in a Japanese garden or staring at a dozen turds floating in a punchbowl.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:45 AM

Supposed to be the guy's poetry, loosely rhymed and metered. But its mostly arguing and personal attacks upon him. At one point his posts were apparently being vandalized and his links changed buy another member of some sort of hacker. He may have the thickest skin I have ever seen on this forum. He ought to get some sort of recognition for that.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:49 AM

Oh, Peace, did I forget to mention Catspaw's neurotic and frantic complaining?

(Not an attack, just an opinion ;-) )

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:32 AM

I took a tour of the UN when I was in New York, Don - but, as said above, in England we get a lot more news of US affairs. However, I seem to recall something about the UN helping set up eco-tourism, and, as for global fair-trade, which is NOT going to happen freely!, who better than the UN? And I agree that we've agreed on somethings.
To LH - I agree with what you said on love, and another argument of mine is a related idea of "coupleism"...there's too much of this "every man and woman for him- or herself" and "anyone's fair game" now, which led me to include this in my collection...

Poem 88 of 230: FROM 20TH-CENTURY SEXUALITY

From One Lover to Free Lover to Fee Lover,
    For children's sakes, let's fashion back to One Lover:
In public-life there are - guess what - women and men;
    Thus, upbringing's best by a woman and a man -
Not by one or two men, or one or two women,
    And not in a tug-of-war of women and men.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM

Come on WAV, admit to it - you're just trolling

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM

No, Stu - responding, discussing, etc. - sometimes with what I've already published elsewhere, in verse and prose.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:11 AM

Then where do you think this poem will lead - perhaps it will seem homophobic to some people? Could it be that a troll might use a similar approach to posting- think of something that will cause people t argue, then sit back and watch the fun?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:02 AM

If you truly are discussing, would you expalin in more detail how nationalism with fair trade is good, or works? I honestly haven't the foggiest what you mean by it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

The problem with thinking the UN can enforce the kinds of things that are being suggested is that the UN is only made up of its member nations. If the member nations don't want any particular policy to be agreed upon, they won't agree on it. And worse, the UN is not a democracy. The UN has a few very powerful players who essentially call all the shots while most of the countries don't really have any say. It's not possible for the UN to do anything other than enforce the will of the most powerful nations. And even if it were a democracy, and all of the member nations had the same amount of say, there's no way the member nations would ever agree to the sort of thing that is being proposed in this thread.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM

It looks to me like nationalism with free trade means that all countries in the world would pay their workers a fair and living wage so that nobody would need to (or feel the need to) leave their country of origin and go to another country to live because they don't feel they can have a good standard of living in their own country. Personally, I think it would be excellent if this were the reality, and I think most of the people who are currently having to leave their own countries for economic reasons would agree with this.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:20 PM

Correction - nationalism with fair trade.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

There are different kinds and degrees of nationalism, Volgadon, as I, and Don, have noted above - I'm stressing with fair-trade rather than imperialism/conquest; I couldn't imagine modern Scottish nationalists aiming to conquer other lands, could you?
To Stu - I'm NOT against same sex partnerships but I am against them being allowed to bring up a child: the latter being a very new New Labour attitude here. In 1950s England, I may have been radical in some aspects, but no-where near as much as I am now; many would have agreed with me on many things; and society, overall, was better then.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

Yes, but how does it work with fair trade?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

Yes, Carol, I thought that was a temporary mistake when I read it - the Tory, e.g., idea that allowing a free market will result in everyone prospering is a load of rich rubbish: without REGULATIONS, there will always be rotten inhumane inequality in the world. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one nation/one vote at least an ideal of the UN (if much abused by the more powerful nations, as you noted). I'm sure I read, or heard a guide say that on my 1997 visit there.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:20 PM

Walkabout verse,have you thought of teaming up with Tone Deaf Leopard.
It could be an interesting version of cross english pollenation.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Have you actually looked at the so-called Free Trade Agreement between Canada, Us and Mexico?

It's a load of horseshit.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

I think giving the five strongest nations veto power was one of the major blunders in setting up the U. N. That's been the stumbling-block that has rendered it relatively ineffective all these years.

". . . but I am against them being allowed to bring up a child. . . ."

Not arguing with you, David, this is just for your information and something you might want to take into consideration.

I know a same-sex couple (who, incidentally have been married in a church ceremony, even though this state doesn't recognize same-sex marriages—yet), two prominent attorneys in this area, who have adopted two children from Chinese orphanages. I've watched with some interest and curiosity (I, too, initially had my doubts) as these youngsters grew. They are bright, well-adjusted, and happy, and although they are aware that some people regard their family situation is unusual, this does not seem to matter to them. They call one of their fathers "Daddy" and the other "Papa." As far as feminine contact is concerned, they have a couple of aunts who spend considerable time with them.

I submit that these two youngsters are now having, and will continue to have, a far better life with Steve and Dave as their parents than they would had they grown up in an orphanage, where the Chinese policy of "one child" meant that they would never have been adopted, nor experience any kind of family life.

Apart from their sexual orientation, Steve and Dave are as straight-arrow as any two guys around. Pedophilia is no more of a concern here than it would be with heterosexual parents, if that's what worries you.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I won't be in anybody's hair for the rest of the day. The writers' group I belong to will be arriving within half an hour, and after that, I'm making music with friends.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:28 PM

The U.N. is, as Carol said, not democratic at all. It's controlled by a few powerful nations through the Security Council. It was set up that way by the winners of the last world war in order to perpetuate their own hold on power. They were all technically allies at the time, but a falling out between Russia and the West was just around the corner.

The USA, the UK, France, China and Russia set up the U.N. in January 1946 to be their tool for continuing world dominance. The victors, in other words, intended to take the spoils. To pretend that this was an attempt to establish genuine international freedom, justice, and equality is laughable.

From Wickipedia:

"The Council seated five permanent members who were originally drawn from the victorious powers after World War II:

The French Republic
The Republic of China
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
The United States of America
Two of the original members, the Republic of China and the Soviet Union, were later replaced by recognized successor states, even though Article 23 of the Charter of the United Nations has not been accordingly amended:

The People's Republic of China
The Russian Federation "


What does it all amount to? Power politics and sheer pragmatism. The U.N. is a compliant tool of a few major powers. The situation has been made more complex since 1946, however, by the fact that those powers do not necessarily see eye to eye on a number of international issues.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:54 PM

Technically each country may have one vote, but only the five permanent members of the security council have the power to veto. Which in essence means they are the only ones who really have a vote.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

Correct. The others are there for window dressing.


Japan and Germany are certainly nations who ought to have a major voice in world affairs via the United Nations...but they (along with Italy) had just been defeated in WWII, so naturally they got basically no voice at all at the time. There is no rational reason why they should not both now be members of a world Security Council if there is to be one at all.

We are living in an old world order that was cobbled together over 60 years ago out of the wreckage of a world war. It does not properly serve present realities.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM

"Have you actually looked at the so-called Free Trade Agreement between Canada, Us and Mexico?"

The FTA with Australia is here called "The F*** the Aussies" arrangement...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:00 AM

One positive, then, is that people here, from those powerful/veto nations, are saying that the UN should be a lot more democratic and, thereby, stronger...the ocean is made of many drops...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 09:41 AM

The UN is a forum. Its a place where nations can meet and discuss their challenges and their differences. The members of the security council have vetoes to prevent a great power shooting war. So far, in that regard at least, the system has worked.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

I don't know. We have seen from recent history that the US, at least, isn't too concerned with whether or not the UN approves when it decides it wants to commit acts of aggression against other countries. I don't think UN disapproval would prevent the US from lobbing a few nukes at Iran.

I'm definitely on the side of making the UN more democratic. Or for the rest of the world to form their own, democratic, UN equivalent.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:58 AM

I'm definitely on the side of making the UN more democratic. Or for the rest of the world to form their own, democratic, UN equivalent.

Sounds good to me but there are a number of countries that would, by there very nature, be disinclined to participate in a democratic UN.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM

Yeah, that's true. The current Security Council members, for instance (most likely). But they can be made irrelevant.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

Them obviously, but I was also thinking about countries that lack any sort of democratic tradition within their own borders.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

I don't know.. even if the leaders of such countries don't want democracy for their own citizens, I'd be willing to bet they'd like to have some of it for themselves in relation to the other nations of the world. Right now, they're at a distinct disadvantage.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

Hard to say. Some dictator types might go for something like that, others probably wouldn't.

For a system like WAV advocates to really work all countries would have to buy in. If just one country creates ethnic or economic refugees then the rest would have to deal with them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

I agree. I don't believe it would be possible to get enough countries to agree with such an arrangement for any of them to be able to make it happen.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM

It makes no difference, KB, whether or not a smaller country has democracy within its own borders...it would still want an equal voice and an equal vote alongside other countries in an organization like the U.N. if it could get them.

No one wants his OWN freedom and voice to be restricted, regardless of how he treats his underlings/citizenry/etc. ;-) Leaders just like others' freedoms to be restricted if it gets in the way of something they want done (or not done).

In fact, I would argue that those MOST likely to restrict their own citizens' freedom are those MOST likely to intensely desire total freedom of action for themselves and their government. It is the very definition of a dictator to be like that.

****

The USA, for instance, wants total freedom to attack anyone in the world that it decides to, any time it decides to, and assumes that it has the absolute right to, regardless of U.N. approval or not...but it accords no one else such rights, except Israel.

Interesting. One has to wonder why? Is it sheer blind hubris or is it a carefully ordered plan of action? Or is it both?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

It makes no difference, KB, whether or not a smaller country has democracy within its own borders...it would still want an equal voice and an equal vote alongside other countries in an organization like the U.N. if it could get them.

I don't think it's that simple. Some of your basic dictator types don't want to have to do anything in any way differently than what they want. Participating in as a true partner in a democratic UN would not be easy for some folks of that stripe.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

Both.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:57 PM

No, being a true partner means that you use your vote the way it is meant to be used. Dictators would still want a vote, to make sure nobody can push them around.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

Dictators love getting a chance to sound off and vote in any forum like the U.N. They enjoy it. They just don't feel inclined to be bound by the results of such a vote if it doesn't go their way... ;-)

Like Bush when he failed to get the U.N. Security Council's approval to invade Iraq in 2003.

I say Bush because Bush is a temporary semi-Constitutional dictator. (unless he declares martial law and stops the next election from happening...in that case he would become a fullblown all-out dictator)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM

They just don't feel inclined to be bound by the results of such a vote if it doesn't go their way... ;-)

Exactly, which is one reason it wouldn't work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

I'm not saying it would work. ;-) I'm saying they would enjoy participating in the excercise.

Bodies like the U.N. can only work if they have the collective authority (and the military muscle) to enforce their decisions...and if their decisions are wise ones in a general sense.

The victors at the end of WWII created the U.N. to represent their own selfish interests, NOT to free the world. They set up the Security Council with that idea in mind. Then they had a falling out amongst themselves, and that led to the Cold War.

It has all been an exercise in grandiose self-interest on the part of a few powerful nations, and at the expense of the rest.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

OK, now that we have cleared that up.

WAV, what makes you think the UN would be able to enforce the provisions you have outlined in your ideas about how the world ought to be?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

For the record, WAV, some of your ideas sound just fine to me, some others fail to enthuse me.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 03:55 AM

Well, as said, KB, the UN would have to become stronger/more democratic, such that individual nations did not over-ride it's decisions. And further to "Like Bush when he failed to get the U.N. Security Council's approval to invade Iraq in 2003."..(LH)...when that chap (perhaps Iraq's Minister for Defence?) nicknamed "Comic Ali" kept answering "no" regarding weapons that could reach other nations, he WAS saying the truth (whilst joking about other things, such as his side's chances). And that was given by the US and UK as a major reason for invasion. (Does anyone know what became of him, by the way?). And still further...

Poem 41 of 230: EVEN AFTER LINCOLN, STEINBECK, AND KING

Written at a public toilet by the
    Statue of Liberty:
"What of Equality, Fraternity;
    And Democracy!?"

The U.S.A. has aided dictators -
    Right-Wing leaders, of course;
So some's bestowal of democracy
    Is hypocrisy.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,stu
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:49 AM

Ali Hassan al-Majid ("Chemical Ali"), ex-Baath leader in northern Iraq, was sentenced to death for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity

stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:01 AM

Comical Ali was the Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf - see Here for more.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 11:25 AM

That information minister was great.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Come on, no anser for me? If it is a good idea, shouldn't we know more about it?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:43 PM

"Dictators love getting a chance to sound off and vote in any forum like the U.N. They enjoy it. They just don't feel inclined to be bound by the results of such a vote if it doesn't go their way... ;-)"

Fiji refused to attend the latest 'big hats of the South Pacific' boozeup - Fiji had a coup and had promised they would have elections by now, which they haven't...

Point proved.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 04:29 AM

Frankly, I didn't know about the latest, 2006, coup in Fiji, FT - but the reasoning seems to be the same as the earlier ones. Indian Fijians have now outnumbered Melanesian Fijians and, via democracy, achieved postitions of power (voting for their own), which leads to coups, via Melanesians in the military, and the continued ill-feeling/ethnic conflict that I noticed during my visit in the 90s.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

IMHO, trying to solve strife in the world by isolating each individual ethnic group into its own restricted compound (ghetto) is neither possible nor desirable.

As it is, people are just going to have to bloody-well learn how to get along.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:09 AM

But, if ideally the law of the land and the culture of the land are closely linked, what would you do, Don?..have different laws for different cultures living within the same land? I know there is for Aboriginal Australians, e.g., which I agree with - but I still maintain that, learning from the past, immigration controls should now be increased the world over.

Further, as it's nearly time to reflect on the Olympics...

Poem 143 of 230: OLYMPICS OR GLOBALISATION?

Largely, I'd say, an Olympic Games is
    One nation's way v. other nations
During fairly-fought sport competitions -
    "Citius, altius, fortius."

So if all states become multicultural
    Or humans become culturally one -
Through settlement and globalisation -
    Holding Olympics would then be null.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:25 AM

"but I still maintain that, learning from the past, immigration controls should now be increased the world over"

What examples from the past would you use to illustrate this point? Please be specific or your argument is invalid.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 07:42 AM

Without being flippant, Stigweard, please see above.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:43 PM

"So if all states become multicultural
    Or humans become culturally one -
Through settlement and globalisation -
    Holding Olympics would then be null."

I dunno, the ancient Greeks got along alright. The olympics are about sports, not about nationalism and are meant to celebrate the fact that athletics know no nationality.

What about an answer to my nationalism with fair trade queston?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

". . . if ideally" [??] "the law of the land and the culture of the land are closely linked. . . ."

The only places in the world where this is the case is in autocratic theocracies such as Afghanistan under the Taliban.

"Ideally?"

Absolutely not! You may as well have a nation of robots.* A society dominated by conformity, restriction, prohibition, and oppression.

Don Firth

*Robot    Etymology: Czech, from robota, compulsory labor; slave.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

No, I amend that. Another example of this kind of society is the Soviet Union, in which authors could be censured and persecuted for writing something the authorities didn't approve of (Boris Pasternak, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn) or composers could be reprimanded and denied performance for writing "the wrong kind of music" (the Zhdanov decree in 1948, condemning Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Khachaturian, and other Soviet composers as "formalist" and "antipopular.").

What you are advocating, WAV, gets pretty close to this: wanting to discourage or prevent people from singing "the wrong kind of songs."

If you want to go a little further into history for examples, there was a time when one could be burned at the stake, not for what one did outwardly, but for not having the "correct" beliefs.

No. That's not the way the world should go; not the way any country should go. That's a big step backwards on the road to civilization.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

Does this cultural isolation apply to foods as well? No pasta outside of China, for instance? I am confused...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 03:34 PM

Add to that list Mikhail Bulgakov, who could hardly get any of his things published or produced, even his play about Stalin's early years, which Joe himself admitted was exactly how things were, but the people needed a myth. Another fine example is the poet Osip Mandelstam, who lost his life because of a verse poking fun at Stalin.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:07 AM

Those USSR examples are more to do with (lack of) freedom of speech/political matters, rather than questioning/supporting the multicultural state, Don and Volgadon. In muslim nations, BOTH the law of the land and the Koran say a man can take up to four wives...should it be that way for muslims in the USA and England? As on my myspace header, I like the idea of "a multicultural WORLD".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 12:08 PM

Meaning tidy little departments of seperate culture which don't mix. Oh, you can open and admire each, as long as you put them back just as soon as you are done, don't stay too long and NEVER mix them.

Are you not going to answer me?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

"Those USSR examples are more to do with (lack of) freedom of speech/political matters, rather than questioning/supporting the multicultural state, Don and Volgadon. In muslim nations, BOTH the law of the land and the Koran say a man can take up to four wives...should it be that way for muslims in the USA and England?"

####

WAV, you have the cart before the horse.

The lack of freedom in the USSR and other totalitarian states comes as a result of the state not allowing the populace to question or criticize it. Anything that doesn't conform to the arbitrary ideas of the state's dictatorial leaders, including their concepts of cultural imperatives, they suppress. And it is this that is the cause of lack of freedom (freedom of speech, freedom of dissent, etc.), not the other way around.

As to the matter of polygamy, the Koran says the following:

Marry such women as seem good to you, two, or three, or four. But if you fear that you will not do justice, then marry only one (4:3).

And a commentary by a Muslim scholar goes on to say:

Thus the Koran appears to clearly sanction polygamy, up to four wives. However, it also states that the man must deal justly, both materially and emotionally, with all four. A separate Koranic verse states this is humanly impossible: "And you cannot do justice between wives, even though you wish it." (4:129)

Tunisia recently banned polygamy on these grounds. Turkey, under Kemal Ataturk, banned polygamy decades ago. So the "four wives" cultural imperative is not an imperative at all.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

And, in certain cases, you can have more, like Muhammad or Muslim rulers.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

"WAV, you have the cart before the horse."

Not again?!!! Good lord, this seems to be happening all the time in our society. People are constantly putting the cart before the horse. I put it down to the overuse of automobiles, the underuse of horses (and carts) these days, and the fact that the horse and cart does not normally come with a simple illutrated instruction manual that even a total idiot can understand.

step 1: place horse directly in front of cart
step 2: fasten harness to horse
step 3: mount cart, facing forward
step 4: grasp reins firmly in left hand and take whip in right hand
step 5: snap whip and yell "Hiyo, Sugarfoot!" (substitute your horse's name here in place of "Sugarfoot")
step 6: hang on! You have now successfully launched your horse and cart. Good luck.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:28 AM

(As suggested in poem #146, e.g., I don't like horses being used in such ways, LH, and, thus, am pleased that the horses-and-carts tradition in England has largely died out - love seeing heavy-horses run wild in a field, mind.)

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 36 of 230: WALKABOUT MEXICO

In late December,
    1996,
I can remember
    Being in a fix -
For time and pesos -
    And, thus, unable
To see Mexico's
    Sights commendable.

So, in Tijuana,
    I enjoyed the show
At a miniature
    Rep. of Mexico.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:07 AM

I don't like horses being used in such ways, LH, and, thus, am pleased that the horses-and-carts tradition in England has largely died out

And with it goes so much of the traditional & folkloric life, the ecology of the countryside, and the continuance of culture & craftsmanship, which defined the whole nature of the England we know & love today. "During a single 10-year period (1984-1993), more than one-third of all hedgerows in the United Kingdom were lost -- a whopping 121,875 miles of destruction..." And of course now they've banned hunting the rest of it will no doubt go down the pan too...

Oh - that Poor Old Horse Song (Owld Grye) is up on the new Venereum Arvum myspace page - see Here - which was collected at the Appleby Horse Fair. Do stop by and have a listen...

Meanwhile, I'm off the start a new thread about horse songs in the English-speaking tradition...

Saddle your horses; your saddles prepare; we'll away to some cover to seek for a hare!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:58 PM

It used to be "I Ride an Old Paint," but now I ride a 1999 Toyota Corolla.

But that doesn't scan nearly as well.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM

Good to hear you and yours, again, IB. Generally, I do support traditions, of course, but I'm happy tractors have taken over from horse-power; and, as for horse racing, I'm with Cromwell - here's that poem/sonnet...

Poem 146 of 230   HORSES FOR COURSES?

To some, in income-anticipation,
    Horse-balking at gates is a small debase;
To me, it seems a memory/fear case
    Over the coming whip-castigation.
To some, the winning jockey's elation
    Is the highlight of an ended horserace;
To me, the horse's bulged veins and scared face
    Undermine the winners' celebration.
I can't condone a punter's desire
    To gamble rather than earn a living,
    But can acknowledge a jockey's courage;
I can't see and think as a raced sire,
    Nor feel the scrapes hedges are giving,
    But find horses choiceless in their bondage.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

So you only want Eng culture you aprove of?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:44 PM

I was always under the impression that horse racing, steeplechase, etc, was an old English tradition; an inntegral part of English culture.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:37 AM

That's true, Don, although Cromwell stopped suchlike for a while; but, yes Volgadon, although I'm a tradie, I don't support every single tradition in England or other nations of the world.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:47 AM

I have it on good authority that Wavygravy once moved to the country but found himself with a neighbor who was an Englishman and plowed with a horse. On the other side was a Pakistani who used a tractor. Wav didn't know whether to shit or wipe........whether to evacuate his bladder or wind his watch. In the end he found himself sitting in a pile of shit, pissing on himself, and wondering what time it was.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:51 AM

Call him a racist if you will, but this thread is proving that Walkabout is a very calm and tolerant man.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 09:14 AM

I think he's having a good time like some of us are as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:03 AM

Catspaw - get back to your kittie litter and wash your mouth out with some soap, please.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:12 AM

LOL

Catspaw and the Clumping Kitty Litter!

A novel of profanity!

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:58 PM

Do YOU use soap Wavydude? Are you sure its English in origin? What a friggin' catsasstrophe for you!!!!! Better check.

Katlaughing has been cleaning up the litter for me for years except when I'm cleaning up litter for her as you know JtS.....But I must argue here! There's certainly nothing novel in profanity(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 04:41 AM

Re: Sparing Spaw's spawnings
Perhaps the mods have been enjoying the Olympics - they didn't bother "cleaning up"/deleting your droppings/posts this time, Spaw.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:27 AM

WAV - the real filth here is your vile racist opinions; no amount of soap & water can ever wash the blood off those ideas.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 08:36 AM

That's false and defamatory, IB - in person and on the web, you have only known me to question THE ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITESELF, and to keep pushing for English culture in England: quite different from criticizing and particular race or culture. I think you once mentioned trying some college/uni formal study - I suggest you try again, and reconsider making such ill-informed remarks.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

Oh, come on, Insane Beard. You look forward to him saying more things that outrage and offend you. Just admit it. ;-) You log in every day just hoping he'll give you another opportunity to comment on how wrongheaded and terrible he is. (And you're not alone in that...)

You need him like Bush needs Osama (or the rumour of Osama, at any rate).

As for Catspaw, the poor bastard can't even get off anymore without his daily WAV fix, but he's just too proud to admit it. (hee! hee!)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:54 AM

Ah Hawkster, I admit it! Wavy gets his jollies acting indignant over facts and I think the Insane one enjoys pointing out the flaws in the "logic".................and YOU get off coming along and pointing it all out......LOL......We be a sick bunch Man....hahahahaha.............

I made a crack somewhere about this but I want to thank Wavy for the laugh on this one! I was researching his silly usage of "English Flute" (a term almost never used since before 1900) instead of Recorder.................and I found THIS hilarious video. Only Walky would give us the benefit of his recorder technique in a SILENT MOVIE!!! And btw, what's with all the mouth malling?

Seriously Wav, I want to thank you for one of the best laughs I've had lately. Seriously! Thanks!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:14 AM

That's it in a nutshell, Spaw. ;-D Boy, talk about having too much time on one's hands, eh? Who'd have guessed when we were young, hungry, and roaming the world in search of love and enlightenment that it would come down to this! Wasting our days with idle inanities on an Internet forum. Oh well, I guess it beats workin' for George Bush, anyway.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM

Firstly, Spaw: my inexpensive digital camera does not allow audio recording; and, secondly, as I said in the About me section, folks can, if they wish, give this video a viewing while they listen to my tracks, above it.
And, yes, I do move the recorder/English flute around in my mouth quite a bit - as I at least try for a good timbre, and to match recorder and voice (play like I sing/sing like I play).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:24 AM

No need to explain it Wavy! Like I said, thanks for the chuckle!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM

You know, Spaw, I fear that we may end up as depraved and generally useless as that jerk, Cheech Wizard before we're done. What an awful fate.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

I live for the day when "Da' Hat" shall adorn my melon. I'm gonna' go straight for the Orphan Girl and tell her I be god......but unlike Cheech, I will do a trick for her.....heheheheheheheheehehe................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM

That's false and defamatory, IB

Everything you say comes down to your twisted obsessions with culture & ethnicity; every warped piece of WAV logic is based on the same irrational sentiments concerning cultural purity. So tell me, how is that not racist?

If can't live & be happy with the cultural & ethnic realities of life in Great Britain in 2008 without scapegoating those same realities for society's ills - then what else are but a racist?

It's you who needs an education, WAV - you need to get yourself back to fucking kindergarten and relearn the basics of human decency; the basics of right and wrong that stand as self-evident truths when dealing with human realities rather than the twisted fantasy you persist in so relentlessly promoting.

False and defamatory? You defame yourself, WAV, not only in believing such bullshit - which is your right & priviledge - but in publishing and promoting it at every available oppotunity. These ideas are evil, and the sooner you realise that the better.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gene Burton
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:30 AM

Is it actually possible for a person to defame themself?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM

My goodness, such passion! I begin to think the man may be serious.

Everybody's into cultural purity, aren't they? What I mean is, everyone just naturally promotes their own culture, is in favor of it, instills it into their children, celebrates it, goes on and on about it how wonderful it is, defends it against any perceived threat of any sort whatsoever... This is also true of people who bitch all the time about racism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM

Forgive me those who've heard it all before but, in my defence, I went a tad beyond "kindergarten" (IB) and achieved 4 technical certificates in manufacturing and a BA in humanities.
Let me ask you a question, IB - do you at least accept that someone who questions immigration, and likes their own culture, may OR MAY NOT be a racist?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Let me ask you a question, IB - do you at least accept that someone who questions immigration, and likes their own culture, may OR MAY NOT be a racist?

The real question is one of reality, WAV. Anyone who questions immigration does so without stopping to think of the effect of such witless grunting on actual immigrants, such as my dear friend, Rajinda, who came to live in England when she was eight months old & has lived here for the last forty-five years, her family likewise. Needless to say Rajinda, a Pakistani Moslem, thinks of herself as English; I think of her as English, as does her husband, likewise Pakistani, and her children, who are also English Moslem, born on English soil, living all their 21 years on English soil.

How are these people expected to feel when someone, such as yourself, starts gibbering on about immigration & repatriation?

So, in answer to your question, anything that causes racial offence is racist by default; such as your ideas, hatched in moral & human vacuum without ever once stopping to thing how offensive this thinking is likely to be to other people.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

Words in someone's mouth, again, Volgadon. And saying that future immigration can't be questioned due to fear of offending those here due to past immigration is, frankly, ridiculous.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

"So, in answer to your question, anything that causes racial offence is racist by default; such as your ideas, hatched in moral & human vacuum without ever once stopping to thing how offensive this thinking is likely to be to other people."

Yeah - and he doesn't like girls playing sport in case they squash their norks (see other thread).

Another "ism" to the list?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

WAV, your whole philosophy is founded on ethnic & cultural purity and the facile belief that England was a better place before immigration - God knows you've made no secret of that. Opposing future immigration on any grounds whatsoever is (frankly) ridiculous, let alone when you are so open about your passions for Our Own Good Culture as it (supposedly) existed before the immigrations of the last 50 years, exclusive of any of the other cultural aspects & attributes of the Multi-Cultural UK as we know today. So it is not future immigration that bothers you, it is immigration period.

I was born into a multi-ethnic & multi-cultural Northumbria; I grew up with Moslems, Hindus, West Indian Blacks, Chileans, Chinese and Yemenites. No bother, WAV - and no rivers of blood. Ethnic diversity & cultural harmony, and unity, in diversity.

Why oppose immigration, future or otherwise, if you're not a racist? Where is your argument? If you weren't a racist, you'd be getting on with your life; living & letting live; happy with the cultural diversity we can enjoy in many parts of the UK, to a greater or lesser extent. Obviously you're not happy with this state of affairs, ergo, you are a racist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 03:08 PM

I'm not going to go back though all this twaddle, but if you oppose immigration on the the grounds that it affects the culture of this country, surely you must oppose emigration - even foreign holidays on the same basis. So all you white-skinned Americans, Canadians, Australians etc - get yourselves back to Europe!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 05:38 PM

A non-racist could have lots of reasons for questioning immigration/emigration, such as population density, land rights, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law, caring for young Spanish couples who are being priced-out of the property market by wealthy English and Germans - not content to just visit as respectful tourists, etc.

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 07:38 PM

"Racist? No, of course I'm not a racist! I resent the implication! As far as I'm concerned, those people are perfectly fine!

"It's just that I don't want them living next door to me!"

O-o-o-o-h, yeah!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:12 AM

You posted that 2 hours after my last, Don - but it's as if we'd posted at the same time and you hadn't read it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:26 AM

A non-racist could have lots of reasons for questioning immigration/emigration, such as population density, land rights, trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law, caring for young Spanish couples who are being priced-out of the property market by wealthy English and Germans - not content to just visit as respectful tourists, etc.

A truly non-racist would see these things as in the light of the economic realities of 21st century capitalism which really have fuck all to do with immigration. Only a racist would attempt to use them as scapegoats to justify their anti-immigration cause.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 06:46 AM

I thought that's one of the things we do agree on, IB - a dislike of free-market capitalism? And, if so, why support future economic/capitalist immigration/emigration. This is where the likes of the Socialist Workers Party get confused - they, too, are against capitalism but they end up supporting those who emigrate to get rich...

"Within the broader music industry, and beyond, what some get for their hour's work, compared with others, is ridiculous and inhumane; hence, many relatively competent musicians within the folk-scene are really struggling to make ends meet; so, if we like fair competition, we don't like capitalism. A better way, as I've suggested in verse, is to accept that humans are competitive, and have strong regulations (partly via nationalisation) to make that competition as fair as possible – whilst also providing "safety-net" support."(from here)...
And accepting eco-travl and fair-trade between nations, via the UN - rather than yet more conquest and capitalist immigration/emigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM

Yet another smokescreen to obfuscate the real issues here.

For a start, being a free-market capitalist I have no dislike of free-market capitalism; it is an organic necessity of the world, as it is today, and always has been, & any attempts to over control it invariably result the horrors of totalitarianism. Secondly, we're not talking about supporting those who emigrate to get rich, rather those of diverse ethnicities who have immigrated into this country simply to make a living, and those who have been born to those families, into their second, third & forth generations. It is against these people that you direct your Own Good English Culture claptrap, constantly banging on about how much better things were before they came, using the immigrant population as a scapegoat for 50 years of political mismanagement - just as any self-respecting racist does.

This is not a personal attack, WAV, but a serious questioning of your published ideology. Whatever personal feelings that lie behind you so-called conclusions you are entitled to, much as any other flawed human being, but once you publish it, then it becomes something else altogether - it becomes a manifesto, a potential rallying point for those who would seize on such ideas as a justification for the racial hatred you claim not to espouse, but which seeps as a rancid bile between your every word.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

Some recalcitrance and inconsistency here? I'm not sure where on mudcat...but I am sure I've read, and agreed with, critical remarks re. capitalism and the rotten inequality it produces from you, IB.
I've also recall you knocking television one day, and then talking about your enjoyment of, e.g, the Early Music programme (which I too enjoyed) just a few days later..?
And, it's getting rarer, but I have heard the media question immigrants as to the reason, with "to get rich" being a common and accepted reply - as most here have not learnt to question capitalism, of course.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:16 AM

I love & hate television in equal measures; capitalism likewise. Not a matter of recalcitrance or yet even inconsistency, but my personal (and, indeed, unpublished - unless posting here counts as publication) dialogue with respect to most aspects of life. For example, I love singing folk music, but rarely, if ever, do I listen to it by way of recreation; I also love attending Roman Catholic Mass but in no way shape or form do I believe in God. Life, I fear, can never never so simple as to be 100% consistent, WAV - and if it is, chances are there's something missing.

Unlike you, I have no strong opinions nor yet have I reached any conclusions; nor do I believe that I have stumbled upon the best way forward for humanity. I just make observations along the way that are subject to change, as such things do, the more one experiences & the more one learns. One thing remains fundamental however, is the belief that whatever one does, one must do it quietly, & happily, & in the hope that it in no way inhibits others from doing likewise. Any sort of bullshit that gets in the way of this - such as the ill-informed racist propaganda you insist on promoting at every available opportunity - I will, quite naturally, oppose.

So - stick to the facts, WAV; you make any more personal remarks like that and I'll be having a word with the mods.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

Was your tongue in your cheek as you typed that last line, IB?!...things had gone quite light-hearted with some good humour on a couple of these threads, before you came back on and brought up the R-word yet again, possibly hoping that others will follow suit (as often occurs). I won't complain to the moderators if you do it yet again, but will, yet again, try and make clear to you the difference between questioning immigration and being racist.
Now, back to the thread, any opinion on my above "Land Rights" verses?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

you still have the influence of Mcgonagle,.
your last line,has too many beats.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

Discuss it. Oh I'll discuss it. Most people learned not to conquer lands so much since World War II? Where in the hell is your precedent for that one WAV? Honestly. That has no basis in reality. One wonders, other than waxing poetical about this WAV, what do you do to support injustice, human rights, discrimination, hunger, and as someone once wrote-"all the ills of mankind"? Do you belong to any organizations? Do you attend rallies or protests against injustice? Do you just sit back and think how we should have a nice multicultural world, while at the same time waxing poetical about all things English, or do you actually do something? Words are fine, action is better.

I guess your poem on Land Rights does not refer to South Ossetia. Or East Timor. Or Darfur. Or Iraq. Or Western Sahara. Or Tibet. Yes....I guess your poem is spot on when looks at all of those places, and the countless others. Spot on WAV. Way to remember those history lessons.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

I said "MOST peoples learnt", above, IE, as part of a collection that I have gifted to 10s of libraries and made free on the web. And, in so far as I keep participating in the local folk and poetry scene. I do still "do something", and have in the past taken to the streets politically.
And, to CB, I just re-read it aloud and it sounded okay to me...maybe you could do likewise...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

ROTFLMAO..........Gifted to libraries?..........oygawdam.........................LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.............aw geeziz, what a hoot..................***gasp***pant***choke...........I can't catch my breath..............................hahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahaahhahahahaahahhahahaahhaahhahha......................gifted to libraries..........................Doncha' just know how overjoyed they were?......................okay now......breathe in----breathe out..................................................***chuckle*****.....woooo........Man, that was a good one........gifted to libraries..................................


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:02 PM

And I say "MOST" is not valid when you consider what happened post war. Separation of Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Korea, et al were, if anything, a result of the war.Since 1945 I'm sure you could find countless instances of conquest for every year since then. I don't see how you can say that WAV. For real. Who you gifted your prose to has no bearing on the point, its just more self promotion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Amos
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

It's not so much the number of the beats, but the signal they carry.


A

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

I did read your post, WAV, including ". . . not content to just visit as respectful tourists . . ." and that's what prompted my post.

You are perfectly willing for people from other cultures, other nations, to come as "respectful tourists" and spend money. But you object to those who are not wealthy enough to spend what little they have on tourism, but who will spend it to emigrate on the chance that they can make a better life for themselves in another country, such as England or the United States. You also seem oblivious to the fact that many people emigrate from their home countries because of political oppression.

No, WAV, I know exactly what you're saying. I think I've been on this planet for a few more trips around the sun than you have, and I've seen it / heard it all before.

I might point out that linking to something you have said on your own website in an attempt to supporting what you say here is both pompous and silly. And almost embarrassingly feeble.

And ". . . and have in the past taken to the streets politically."

For what causes?

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, my wife is a librarian. There are people who walk into the library all the time with books they've self-published or material they have written, and generously contribute their great, immortal works to the library for the enlightenment and edification of the multitudes.

It amounts to great heaps and piles. Do you have any idea of what's done with this stuff?

"Thank you very much," says the librarian. Then, when the person is out of sight, "THUNK!" into the round file.

Otherwise, libraries would have to maintain warehouses full of aspiring writers' and poets' unpublished material. And there is generally a very good reason that it's unpublished.

And posting it on a web site, other than getting you ideas out in front of others, does not really count as "published" in the sense that it doesn't have to pass the scrutiny of an editor.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 02:52 PM

WAV, have you ever printed your poems and other writings out in correct manuscript form, put them into a Manila envelop, and sent them to a book or magazine publisher? Have you ever subjected your material to the eyes of an editor?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

Hey, Spaw, you have no idea. The library in Blind River, Ontario has been a proud and grateful recipient of a whole set of WAV's collected works.

Unfortunately, though, most of that stuff got destroyed in that rampage that Shane went on there when he got arrested awhile back after Rapaire had driven him into a frenzy with some insensitive things he said to Shane online. It wasn't really Shane's fault, though. It was the cops who overreacted and brought in a lot of high tech weaponry and escalated the situation beyond reason so that the library got half-wrecked before Shane was hauled out to the paddy wagons screaming obscenities.

I think that almost all of WAV's work on display there got damaged beyond repair. Blind River has taken a real cultural blow over this, and so has Shane. The "liberry" has banned him for life over it! He has been driven to begging the use of his brother Don's girlfriend's computer. It's sad how the innocent are always made to pay for the heavy-handed behaviour of bureaucrats and law enforcement personnel.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:06 PM

But please say that McGonegal's work was undamaged...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 04:26 PM

Wow Hawkster.....What a tragedy. I had no idea .............................. I'm sure Wav's work was a prize for Blind River to have and now to have it lost is simply terrible, a major blow (much like Shane himself...or Wavy).

Are there plans for renewing it?   I hate to think of the folks in Blind River without such a valuable resource and cultural guide at their disposal. I'm sure that poor Shane has been so angry he's seeing double..............wait....uh, check that.......Seeing QUADRUPLE. Shane already sees double on most days.

Fortunately, as I understand it, the statue in the town square of Cheech Wizard was saved and the locals have been going there nightly for their usual evening vespers and candlelight worship of his greatness.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:28 PM

If several words have already been typed in somewhere on the web, why not do, as many have done, and give a link to it, rather than retyping; hence, Don, I refer you here for some of the places I've been published post-self-publication. (And I haven't checked with every library, but know that 1 or 2 have indeed ditched it - while others still have it either on the shelf or at least in the system.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:26 PM

Okay, WAV, I checked the link you gave and I don't see anywhere where it says you've been published. Other than self-publshed.

I'm talking about publication that has been read and accepted for publication by an editor, and then printed in a book or in magazines.

And, for that matter, for which you have been paid.

So. Where exactly does it say?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

Hi WAV
I remembered this bit of poetry from the early 1970s. I'd welcome your learned critique:

Take a pinch of white man
Wrap him up in black skin
Add a touch of blue blood
And a little bitty-bit of red indian boy..

Curly, black and kinky
Oriental sexy
If you lump it all together
Well, youve got a recipe for a get-along scene
Oh what a beautiful dream
If it could only come true
You know, you know..

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough to take the world and all its got
Keep it stiring for a hundred years or more
Turning out coffee-colored people by the score

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:08 AM

before you came back on and brought up the R-word yet again, possibly hoping that others will follow suit (as often occurs). I won't complain to the moderators if you do it yet again, but will, yet again, try and make clear to you the difference between questioning immigration and being racist.

I bring up the R-word - racism - because it's such an intrinsic part of your entire self-published philosophy; it's there in your narrow exclusive concerns over English culture, which would be bad enough on their own but when you couple this to your views on immigration and repatriation, then I'm afraid there is no question about it, WAV - you are a racist, and what's more, you've published this fact for all the world to see. If you weren't a racist, you wouldn't publish such potentially inflammatory racist jargon; and if your concerns were truly with the English Folk Culture & Folklore you supposedly love, then you'd spend your time immersed in the study of it rather than relentlessly promoting your bizarre ideas which, alas, only demonstrate how little you know and understand of the subject.

I await your clarification on the difference between questioning immigration and being racist - only, please don't quote from your published rhetoric.

Meanwhile, think on this: The human & cultural history of these British Isles (of which England is a part) is one of tens of thousands of years of invasion, immigration, assimilation and diversification; the resulting cultural flux being a process of ongoing change and redefinition whereby not only might the country redefine itself with every overlapping generation, i.e. every three years, but remain entirely different things to any one of its 60 million citizens, native, immigrant, or otherwise. The experience of the individual citizen defines the overall character, and culture, of the nation.

Further - what percentage of England's 50 million citizens would agree that Morris Dancing, English Concertinas & the Unaccompanied Singing of Traditional Folk Songs in any way represented Their Own Good Culture? Also, in the England of 2008, there are more people Morris Dancing, playing English Concertinas & Singing Unaccompanied Traditional Folk Songs than have ever done so in the last 10,000 years. The same (with respect of their own Folk Cultures, albeit in the non-exclusive and cultural absolutist sense in which you might understand the term) could be said of the 5 million residents of Scotland, the 2 million residents of Northern Ireland, and the 3 million residents of Wales. The outlook is better than ever.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:02 AM

Sorry Don - genuine mistake: my myspace About Me was deleted a while back, and I've re-done it without mention of other publications. They are here, though. And I don't mind answering that everything I've done so far, in folk and poetry, has been as an amateur - just a few mini-free-drinks/entry-type gigs and a free journal or two. It probably is standard procedure, but I have got thankyou letters from the secretary of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the EFDSS, e.g., for the paperbacks I've gifted, and one borrower wrote asking (C) permission for my poems on her birthday and Christmas cards; you at least agree that such matters are subjective, yes? I'm unemployed at the moment, but have earned a living, rather, in manufacturing (e.g., production manager).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:40 AM

And to IB, again!, moreso under New (Scottish) Labour, pro-immigrationsists have tried to equate the questioning of immigration with racism - and you are a rather extreme example of this. WITH SOME QUALIFICATIONS, you could fairly call me an anti-immigrationist but NOT a racist. If you can't fathom that, you really should have another go at formal study - preferably in humanities. I have a degree in humanities, and, in my collection, I have at least tried to support the land rights, etc., of people who are clearly not of my race - I'd be one of the least racist people in the world, and I do question immigration, and won't let the misled likes of you stop me from doing so.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 07:40 AM

Once more, you side step all the points I've made by throwing up yet another smokescreen - drawing us once again to your fucking collection. You call this the best way forward for humanity; I call it a fair indication that you have a long way to go in understanding just what the needs & requirements of humanity are, irrespective of your so-called academic training.

Your love of a Nice Multicultural World and constant banging on about land rights is another smokescreen for your bitter hatred of the realities of a Nice Multicultural UK. In this alone you simply cannot separate your anti-immigration stance from your racism. By promoting such a blinkered & unrealistic view of English folk culture coupled with your anti-immigrationist bigotry you are, in effect, actively promoting racism; by listing English dances & instruments which purposefully exclude those of immigrant & ethnic minorities who are such an important aspect of the English cultural landscape you are, in effect, actively promoting racism. If you can't fathom that out, WAV, it's you who needs to return to formal education - but not university, as I say, rather the kindergarten to get back to the basics of human decency.

I say again:

The human & cultural history of these British Isles (of which England is a part) is one of tens of thousands of years of invasion, immigration, assimilation and diversification; the resulting cultural flux being a process of ongoing change and redefinition whereby not only might the country redefine itself with every overlapping generation, i.e. every three years, but remain entirely different things to any one of its 60 million citizens, native, immigrant, or otherwise. The experience of the individual citizen defines the overall character, and culture, of the nation.

Given that, WAV - what possible non-racist reason can you have to justify your anti-immigrationist stance?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM

I think most are probably tired of our "fencing" IB, so I'll just deny your remarks, and say a simple - see above.
No - one more attempt. If I can accept that some who question immigration may be racist; can you accept that others who question immigration may NOT be racist (the latter is how I see myself)?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:53 AM

As has been pointed out before, it all comes down to the GROUNDS on which you are questioning immigration: if it's on the grounds of keeping your culture untainted and pure, you are probably racist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:02 AM

can you accept that others who question immigration may NOT be racist

Please, just answer the question, WAV. On what non-racist grounds do you question immigration? And with what possible non-racist justification? And why do you want to put a stop the very thing that has defined us as a nation these past millennia?

You're the one who publishes & promotes this stuff, at least have the courage of your convictions and defend it.

Congratulations for the clicky-less post by the way, let's have a few more, eh?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:16 AM

On what non-racist grounds do you question immigration? (IB)...all that I have posted/published on this matter - in verse (see above) and prose (see above).
Ruth's gone back to "probably", and I'm going back to practiSing my English repertoire (see above).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:20 AM

Culture is not necessarily based on race. Culture is based on old social customs. There is an American culture and a French culture and a Russian culture and a Danish culture, etc, and they are each based not on race, but on a long accumulated set of social customs and traditions.

Therefore I don't see that WAV can be depicted as racist. You can say that he's chauvinistic or defensive about his culture, but you can't say that he's a racist.

(Well, you can, but you'd just be engaging in a sort of rhetorical witchhunt if you did, given the fact that "racist" is a particularly charged word in today's dialogue.)

WAV is not objecting to the race of various immigrants, he is objecting to the fact that they may hold rather different cultural values, and that that causes changes in his culture which he doesn't care for.

People everywhere object to that sort of thing to some extent, depending on where, how, and in what way it manifests.

For example (and it's an extreme one), Canadians have objected strenuously to certain East Asian fathers killing their daughters over family issues that we would regard as the daughters merely expressing their own free will and choices in life. That's not a racial matter, it's a cultural matter. The Asian men who have done this violence to their daughters (or wives) apparently feel quite justified in doing it. Canadian society does not agree with their viewpoint on that.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:55 AM

WAV - it is apparent that you don't think of yourself as racist. It is also apparent that you consider your education to be above average. Why can you not explain your posts poems and opinions in a way that gives the impression you want to give to people instead of the direct opposite?

In musical matters why not read carefully the posts by knowledgeable people elsewhere in this forum, and learn from them, instead of developing your own notions based on very limited experience?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Master Baiter
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM

I may have had a good time ribbing poor Wav about English football and the better version--American Football--but I think I have read most of this thread and I believe he is having a very hard time getting his point across.

I think he's saying that he sees and believes in the value of any culture continuing to carry on past traditions. He also feels that folks deserve the right to a sovereign existence and to hold cultural values within a territorial area characterized by the groups own laws and customs. Wav maintained his cultural values while in Australia but is better back in England. He thinks it could be better yet. It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group they must have their own land so that their own ways can be furthered to the exclusion of alternate ways of life within that specific geographic territory. The alternate ways need to exist in their own territories as well.

Anyway, I think those are the points he's making. Much to the chagrin of his adversaries, he expresses his belief, and repeatedly so, that this is not racist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM

I'm not sure that what you're describing couldn't be ghettoes...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:22 AM

Okay, Little Hawk: let's say xenophobic instead. It's not any nicer. The attitude someone described earlier of "They're fine, but I don't want them living next door to me" has long been recognised as racist, bigoted, whatever you want to call it. And I think it sums up perfectly WAV's world view.


Master B:

"He thinks it could be better yet."

Yes - by getting rid of immigrants. The BNP think that, too.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:34 AM

What WAV has shown is a desire for England to be purely English in culture. What he sees as English culture is something untainted by foreign influence.

On the one hand, WAV claims that he wishes immigration to stop from now on, on the other he wishes for our nation to return to more purely English cultural values, an imaginary Englande of Olde. The consumption of roasts, not curries. Listening to Folk, not 'american' rock or pop. In other words to undo the effects of immigration over the last few decades. This would be possible by either physically removing those who have cultural links with other countries, or forcibly making them practiCe goode, ye olde Englishe culture.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:47 AM

"It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group"

Name some distinct cultural groups in the UK today, because, you may find that each person is distinctly, culturally different.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Master Baiter
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:53 AM

I thought Wav was okay with individuals but just wished for the parts of their shared heritage to be continued and thus feels that it would be wonderful to do that within a territorial area characterized by the group's own laws and customs.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:57 AM

"It takes but simple logic to see that for a people to survive as a distinct cultural group"

In the UK, that horse has already left the barn. The government has finally acknowkledged that isolating different cultures is ghettoising and counter-productive. The way forward in the society we live in - rather than the one some Little Englanders would like to pretend we live in - is through cultural exchange, sharing, celebration and mutual understanding. And that means sharing and celebrating English culture as an important part of the mix.

Some of the best music England has ever produced has been the result of fusions between indigenous and more recent cultures.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Master Baiter
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM

I don't know Ruth. I am simply trying to state what Wav is saying and although you may be right about how it is, I think I have expressed what Wav is trying to say.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

Surely WAV can say it himself, what with his superior BA in humanities...

The loss of some aspects of culture unique to a specific geographical area, called a nation can sometimes be a bad thing. Using this as an excuse to justify 'cultural' segregation is a thing that is much, much worse.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:31 AM

but you can't say that he's a racist

With respect to the above posts by Little Hawk & Master Baiter, I don't see any evidence to the contrary, and as WAV resolutely refuses to provide any, whilst continuing to promote his published ideologies, then, as far as I'm concerned, he is as good as admitting to it.

The past traditions that WAV talks about as Our Own Good Culture are the hobbyist concern of but a tiny minority of the 50 million people currently living in England - even those of the indigenous white population (as far as we can call it such). His view of this is a personal fantasy which in no way shape or form can be considered representative of English Culture in 2008, nor indeed at any time in English history.

Now, if this was simply WAV's personal belief I would not question it; nor would I have the right to question it. However, WAV does does not express his beliefs, he publishes & promotes them in a blaze of self-glorification - which is a very different matter entirely. I have friends who express their beliefs, generally down at the pub, in their cups, spouting all sorts of racist bullshit by way of a rowdy exchange, general provocation & otherwise Devil's Advocacy, but they don't do so far as to publish it, nor yet have the supreme arrogance to assume that what they believe represents the best way forward for humanity.

WAV is not objecting to the race of various immigrants, he is objecting to the fact that they may hold rather different cultural values, and that that causes changes in his culture which he doesn't care for.

I think, sadly, you'll find that WAV is objecting to the race of various immigrants, as with WAV culture and ethnicity are synonymous, which is perhaps one of the things we do agree on. I say again, as many have, that English culture is the result of aeons of immigration, invasion, diversification & assimilation; English culture is a process determined by the English People, which is to say the 50 million or so human beings living in England at this present point in time however they came to be here, or whatever their culture / ethnicity might be.

WAV's answer to this?

Yes England, e.g, is (or was until about 50 years ago) an old old blend of mostly European cultures.

The racial implication here couldn't be clearer, thus do I maintain that by his own published writings it can be proven that WAV's cultural concerns are racist.

But once again, this is not a personal attack on WAV, but on the fact that he has set himself up as a some sort of benign ideologue, hell bent on promoting a propaganda that is demonstratably contentious, and worse, potentially inflammatory should ever it be used to fuel the already perilous tensions that exist largely because of the same sort of propagandist bullshit such as WAV has published, and evidently, believes in. I can just imagine some disaffected racist stumbling across a line such as:

As I've said in verse, English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture,society suffers.

and believing it, and adopting it, and using to further the racist cause.

Fact is, never has English Culture been richer, healthier and as diversely dynamic as it is now. In no way, shape or form is it taking a hammering. And as I've said above, there are more people engaged with Folk Music now than at any point in history, even though it still remains a minority concern. No shame there, of course because culture does not, and cannot, exist without people; culture is what people do - something that WAV, for all his anthropological training, has failed to realise.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

"I have friends who express their beliefs, generally down at the pub, in their cups, spouting all sorts of racist bullshit" (IB)...I don't have friends like that, I'm not like that and, at the singarounds that we've both been at, IB, I've never heard any of that.
By the way, I've just noticed on the news an English swimmer being welcomed home with Union Jack waving, but Scots doing the same for a Scottish cyclist with Scottish flags - God's speed to the latter: I hate imperialism.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

Ya' know this thread just gets nutsier all the time.

I can't tell for the life of me what Wavy really means because he never answers diddly squat with any kind of answer. The "Master Baiter" guy sort of tried for him but the Wavy Dude can't seem to figure any of it out himself.

The Insane One does an admirable job holding Wav's feet to the fire but he can't seem to really anser him either. I gave up questioning him for lack of straight answers.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:19 PM

Hi Wav. Many of your interlocutors seem to struggle with your tendency to avoid straight questions, so I thought I'd ask a couple that only require numbers as answers.
First simple question WAV; since it can easily be demonstrated that all cultures (however isolated) have contributions from others, for how many years does a cultural artefact (using Schein and/or Hofstede's definition of 'artefact', which I am sure your degree in humanities covered) have to be practised before it becomes indigenous, in your view? Simple, numerical answer please, to the nearest 10 years or so, without referring to your website; I've checked that, and it doesn't answer the question. This isn't a mischievous question, so please don't treat it as such; I am genuinely trying to understand the basis of your belief in a homogenous, static and identifiable 'English' culture.
Second simple question; what percentage of a population have to practise a cultural artefact before you would accept that it is part of the culture of the whole population? (For example, what percentage of the people would have to sing folk songs?) Again, a simple numerical answer will be fine.
Thanks.
Best wishes
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

In short, self-published, no editors involved, no payment. Beyond that, posting stuff on web sites and reading stuff at poetry readings and poetry slams.

I know a number of self-proclaimed poets who go that circuit. They never send their stuff in to established publishers (book publishers, even poetry magazines). Why not? I'm pretty sure it's because their egos can't handle a possibly negative evaluation by a professional editor. Without that, they can go on living in their dream world of being an undiscovered genius, but right up there with Yeats or Dickinson.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:14 PM

True, true Don. And on the other side of it, you have people like a friend of mine, who has, in essence, self published his own poetry in small book form, who is an amazing, amazing talent. He's so shy about it though, that he doesn't seem to be able to submit anything to any major sources. At best, maybe a few small time poetry publications, but nothing major, even though it should be, even despite the urgings of several of his friends.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:56 AM

wav,might I suggest you read Kipling.
your poetry lacks rhythym.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:17 AM

Don - I'm sure you and yours are also aware, but may need reminding, that most poetry publishers would only publish a collection of 230 poems, or more, if it was a "best of", or suchlike, from one or more of those "big names" that you and CB just mentioned. Also, you just ignored the journals (written and oral) I gave you; further, my aim was, and my preference still is, to be an amateaur folkie and poet - but, yes, if offered payment, I'd take it: I'm obliged to as I'm presently unemployed from manaufacturing or other work.
Mandotim - your questions may not be "mischievous", or derived from oneupmanship, but I think they are far from "simple"...I'm knocking, sorry.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM

A collection of 230 poems or more? I know of no such thing, WAV. There are dozens, hundreds, thousands of books of around thirty or so poems published by big name publishers. And there are piles of small poetry magazines to be found in bookstores and well-stocked magazine stands, most of which are quarterlies, but many monthly publications.

I'm not a poet myself (I am a published—and paid—prose writer, however), but I am no stranger to the world of poetry. Within the past couple of years, I have been part of a group called "Miscellany" (Nancy Quensé, guitarist and singer, Isla Ross, violinist, my wife Barbara, singer and keyboardist, and myself, singer and guitarist) that provides background and incidental music for readings by award-winning poet Jana Harris. She has seven books of poems published along with a couple of novels, one of which was a Book of the Month Club alternate selection.

Jana has a large group of slides appropriate to her poems, and Nancy has researched music and songs, and although Jana does most of the reading, she has us all read (I read the "guy" poems). Between the readings, the slides, and the music, the presentations are somewhat reminiscent of the Ken Burns television specials. We've given these presentations at a number of bookstores and at book fairs. No presentations right now because Jana is busy writing another thematic group of poems for a new collection. There is the possibility that in the near future, we may give the presentation on television.

I have also recorded several poems for local poet and old friend Richard Gibbons for a planned web site and audio CDs of his poems. He has a few other people recording his poems as well, because he wants a variety of voices in addition to his own. He is also a published poet and writer, and is best known here on Mudcat as having written "Sully's Pail," a song recorded by Tom Paxton.

If you are unemployed, I'm quite sure it would be nice to have a few checks coming in, especially royalty checks, where the work has been done, but the checks just keep on coming.

There are plenty of publishers out there if you are courageous enough to submit your poetry to the scrutiny of editors.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:19 AM

"A collection of 230 poems or more? I know of no such thing, WAV. There are dozens, hundreds, thousands of books of around thirty or so poems published by big name publishers. And there are piles of small poetry magazines to be found in bookstores and well-stocked magazine stands, most of which are quarterlies, but many monthly publications." (Don)...agreed - and, thus, if I do wish to keep the 230 together, and turn pro., probably the best thing to do would be to take my master copy, and my home-made version, to a printer, rather than a publisher. I've made 10s of copies (gifted out, as above) using an inexpensive portable photocopier - the problem is, though, the replacement cartridges for it are very expensive.
Some, as you say, like to add other media to their poems; whilst others think the challenge is to say things WITHIN the framework of just poems - I'm with the latter, but some of my myspace (Top) friends have experimented with the former.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 07:44 AM

There's quite an industry in self-publishing amongst poets and artists alike these days, and not all of it's shite.

Ian Hamilton-Finlay's Wild Hawthorn Press published many small cards and fold-outs that otherwise would never have seen the light of day and certainly deserved too, and I have a signed copy of an early self-published collection by Ian McMillian, the Bard of Barnsley.

I've self-published some of my concrete poetry, and actually installed (well, placed on a chair) a small folded piece in Tate Liverpool long before Banksy hit upon the idea of adding his own work to galleries guerrilla-style. It lasted about 20 mins before a security guard found it and screwed it up, and was 'enjoyed' by several visitors (it was next to a rather fine Picasso as I remember).

I'm completely in favour of it, however questionable the results. Before Waterstone's became the corporate shifting-house of crap it is now the poetry section carried a fair amount of self-published stuff. I always look out for it when I'm in Manchester as some can be good, and if it's not at least someone's taken the trouble to out their work out and invited critique.

Publish and be damned!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

I'm all in favor of guerilla publishing and guerilla recording. This takes it out of the hands of the Arbiters of Taste and Determiners of What Sells—big name publishers and recording companies, who won't publish or issue anything unless it has strong "best-seller" or "gold record" potential, which often means its appeal is to the lowest common denominator.

But these are not the only publishers there are. At least in my area, there are several smaller local publishing companies that, nevertheless, are big enough to have national distributorships, and depending upon the nature of the work, there are the university presses. The book I'm currently working on (about the folk music "scene" in the Pacific Northwest from the early 1950s to the present) is aimed at one of these. And most of my articles on folk music have been submitted to and published in a local music magazine.

I see little point in working on a piece of writing only to have it languish in a bottom desk drawer or reside in bits and bytes on a disk, and although self-publishing is always an option, this is certainly not the first route I would take. There are some real gems out there that have been self-published. But there is an incredible amount of dross, and all too often, to find the gems, you have to wade knee-deep through garbage. The imprimatur of an editor, or at the very least, a second pair of fairly objective eyes can help to separate the worthwhile from the rubbish and save potential readers a lot of time and aggravation.

####

To do justice to Jana Harris (pronounced "YAH-nah"), and lest there be any misunderstanding of my comments regarding our recent "multi-media" presentations, Jana's poems were not written with multi-media in mind. They stand alone.

I believe it was Nancy Quensé's idea to add the multi-media aspects to them, since some of the collections of Jana's poems tend to be thematic. For many of her poems (and novels) Jana drew much of her inspiration from the diaries and journals of pioneer women in the Westward Movement in the late 1800s. Nancy (a Pacific Northwest folk singer with concerts and television to her credit) researched both folk and popular songs of the period, and Jana was able to find many old photographs that she had made into slides.

In addition to her poetry and novels, Jana teaches Creative Writing in the English Department at the University of Washington. She was also editor and founder of Switched-on Gutenberg, one of the first electronic poetry journals of the English-speaking world. Her seventh book of poems, The Dust of Everyday Life, an epic concerning the lives of forgotten Northwest pioneers, (Sasquatch) won the 1998 Andres Berger Award. Her second novel, The Pearl of Ruby City was released from St. Martin's Press. In 2001, she won a Pushcart Prize for poetry. Jana is a member of the National Book Critics Circle, PEN, Poetry Society of America, and AWP.   Recently she has been writer-in-residence at the University of Wyoming, St. Catherine's College (St. Paul, MN), and Washington State University. Her eighth collection of poetry, We Never Speak of It, Idaho-Wyoming Poems, 1889 (Ontario), was published in 2003 and nominated for the Kingsley Tufts Award. She won a Reader's Choice Award in poetry from Prairie Schooner in 2004.

She's also a charming person and it's been a privilege to work with her.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM

Walky, what Don is politely suggesting is that you ain't got the balls to send your stuff to a legit publisher out in the real world. If you haven't submitted to a professional editor for a critique, your collection and life's work isn't worth spit except as wasted bandwidth.

You don't have to try to get it published but why not find out what a pro's opinion might be. After all, you're not going to go that way so find out if you could. Can't hurt can it? I know you have balls but it may be that one is the size of a pea and the other is real tiny.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 12:05 AM

But...how can we possibly know that unless official measurements are taken under controlled lab conditions, and the results published in a reputable science periodical?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:54 AM

(Go play with your peas in your kitty litter, Catspaw.)

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 33 of 230: TO CARE AND SHARE

(This is also 1 of my 17 "Chants from Walkabouts" CD.)

Within sunny California
    (Just a wisp of smog arriba),
Not far from L.A's Chinatown,
    A rich driver looks, with a frown,
At a beggar sat on a crate:
    Gaunt, it seems long since she last ate.
As the driver stops at the light,
    The beggar moves her hand upright.
But, though the cap clasped holds small cash,
    The rich man shares not his large stash.

Yet, to all it is plain to see,
This beggar lives in poverty.
But, like a fifth of humankind,
Little help this woman will find.
For too selfish the wealthy fare
To help the poor - to care and share.

And, in Tijuana, Mexico,
    Another has no place to go -
It's an hour before midnight,
    And he's curled outside a shopping site:
"He is sick," I'm told, passing by;
    "Him and the system," I reply.
Then my hand to my pocket goes
    For all my coins - sixteen pesos.
Enough for three meals - beans, rice;
    But, for a home, it won't suffice.

Yet, to all it is plain to see,
This pauper dwells in poverty.
But, like one fifth of humankind,
Small help this sick hombre will find.
'Cause too competitive most fare
To change the scheme - to care and share.

In Bangkok and Barcelona,
    Bombay, Melbourne and Manila -
Such woes exist all round the globe:
    Poor food, poor clothes and no abode.
These are Maslov's essential needs,

    And they can be met - with good deeds.
The beggars all could leave the street -
    With some kit for body and feet.
But voted leaders cut the aid
    From which much housing could be made.

Yet, to all it is plain to see,
Too many live in poverty.
But, from the rest of humankind,
A lack of help they tend to find.
For too greedy most snug-ones fare
To fix the need - to care and share.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM

Now there's one you definitely need to send in.................oh yeah.....that's a piece of work........................................................or something..............................................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM

...thanks heaps, Spaw!.............and there's not meant to be a space between the "Maslov" and the "good deeds" lines, by the way.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM

'of all the trades in England a-begging is the best' or so they say!!

Have you pndered on the thought that most of the money given directly to beggars goes on drugs and alcohol?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

It was Abraham Maslow, not Maslov, who developed a theory on the heirarchy of needs.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:30 AM

:-(
   I have a headache

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM

"Have you pondered on the thought that most of the money given directly to beggars goes on drugs and alcohol?"

Yes, I have, but what worries me more is where the money given to bankers and politicians goes... ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

I'm getting tired of trying to lead people out of the wilderness. I'm gonna go have a beer!

Moses

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:16 PM

After your beer Don, or Ruth, could you confirm that it is pronounced "MaZloV" - if not I'll have to change it on my CD, as well as my site and book (and thanks for the correction, Ruth).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM

Abraham Maslow

Re:   pronunciation, the consensus seems to be "Mas-low" rather than "Mas-lov."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

That was all I was able to find, but further checking might be in order. I would assume that it might have been pronounced "Mas-lov" orginally in the "old country," but since he was born in the United States (one of those pesky immigrant families), it's quite likely that the pronunciation was Anglicised (or Americanised) to "Mas-low."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM

When I learned the theory (and indeed taught it at university level) it was pronounced Maslow. But that was in the UK.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM

Caesar was pronounced "Kye-sar" by the Romans. (similar to the German word Kaiser).

Jesus name was most likely pronounced "Yeshua" in his own time.

These things all change as they move from place to place.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM

Yeah.........I spell my name JABLONSKI but pronounce it JOE.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:31 AM

Was Maslow the boke that got pissed before and during his public seminars? Or was that Herzberg? It was one of the business related theorists anyway.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:28 AM

Featherstonehaugh = Fanshaw

Cholmondley = Chumley

I love these!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 05:47 AM

..if we put Maslov into Google, it does come up with Maslow; and if we put "pronounce Maslow" into the same place, it gives at least 4 opinions; and, to a tennis fan, both the spelling and the pronunciation still seem questionable - Dmitry TursunoV is among many players of Russian origin (he has actually lived in America for several years) with a V rather than a W in their name...for what it's worth, I intend to check my local library's encyclopedia before making changes.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:53 AM

So his name was Maslow? So why not change 'Maslov' to 'Maslow'? on phonetic grounds?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:16 AM

His name was Maslow, WAV, no matter how you decide to pronounce it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 07:20 AM

Do you know what the funny thing is? I pointed out this rather minor factual innacuracy to see whether WAV would argue the toss - just to see whether,as I suspect, he really cannot bear to be wrong about ANYTHING.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

...if you look, Ruth, I'm not the only one still questioning this matter (as I say, I began thinking of the Russian tennis players I konw of) but, after my visit to the local library, I probably will change it to Maslow, as you say.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

Just another indefensible clanger WAV - just accept it's Maslow. He's not a Russian tennis player.

Do you think essential needs is a tautology?

And who needs poor food, poor clothes and no abode?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

...I'm into tennis, S&R, but go through composers or any other Russians you may know of and there are many Vs, rather than Ws, yes?...Was his family name changed at some point from Maslov to Maslow..?...And, speaking of Vs, I'm a tad surprised Volgadon hasn't posted on this matter..?...But, either way, as I say, I'm going to check in the library before making changes.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM

There is no W in the Russian alphabet. Maslow was American. The pronunciation is Maslow.

Isaac Asimov chose to transliterate his name to end with a V. Maslow didn't.

The terminal consonant in these names in Russian is a labiodental voiced fricative. The pronunciation can vary from between close to a V to close to a W. It depends on the closeness of the lips to the teeth.

Russian Alphabet

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM

WAV,You seem an affable cove.
I find your views on immigration, nonsensical.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 02:58 PM

Because some of the "Conclusions" in my "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse" are heavily against the status quo, CB, I tried some introductory, frank, blank verse, in "0 - 19," to try and let people know "where I'm coming from" (here).
And, as much as I enjoyed visiting Ireland, I, in turn, find it hard to understand why you and your repertoire left England..?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM

No, Captain Birdseye. You don't find them, nonsensical. You find them nonsensical.

(It's so much fun being a pedant....) ;-)

Do, you, follow, me?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:15 PM

"And, as much as I enjoyed visiting Ireland, I, in turn, find it hard to understand why you and your repertoire left England..? "

Because he wanted to? Because it made him happy? For the same reasons that I and my lack of repertoire left new Jersey?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:19 PM

Spaw
Sick headache got any aspirin?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:37 PM

Perhaps he left England to get away from Olive Whatnoll. He would not be the first to have done so.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

...my headaches, OD, are nearly always caused by low sleep-hours...but then there's the Maslov/ws, who left W-less Russia (thanks Stu) for (V AND W) America and, it seems, became Maslows!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

I don't think this is an episode of Who Do You Think You Are...no matter how many generations ago his family may or may not have changed the spelling of their name, or how many Russian tennis players it takes to change a light bulb, it doesn't change the fact that you misspelt it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 04:05 PM

...I wonder if he liked VW..?..I certainly enjoyed his 9th symphony on The Proms the other night.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:39 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 54 of 230: HOBSON'S CHOICE

During a day trip to Cambridge,
    My uncle showed the confined space
That left punters no choice to face -
    Using Hobson's trade of carriage.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

Further to Maslow, above, I just made a check of 2 library encyclopedias: one gave no mention; and the other spelt it as Maslow, and gave the pronunciation as MaZlO - thus, shortly I'll change my sites and my recording.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:18 PM

Germanic language currently pronounces the letters V & W different to English... seems Old English was closer to modern German...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:46 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKAOUT, E.G.

Poem 149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 01:53 PM

What. . . !???

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:31 PM

...at least that one hasn't been changed to "wot", yet!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

Volgadon hasn't posted on these matters because Volgadon was out of the country for a couple of weeks.
Maslow/v is down to spelling conventions. As has been pointed out, there is no 'w' in Russian, but a 'v'. It isn't as flat sounding as an English 'v'. HOWEVER, surnames ending with a 'v' should sound more like an 'f', because of the Russian tendency to soften endings. Taking Maslow, a surname deriving from the word for oil, it could be rendered properly as either Maslow, Maslov, or even Masloff. This would be fine if he were Russian, but as his parents emigrated, then the form chosen back then should be used.
Personally, I preffer 'v' as 'w' is too Polish and 'ff' too French.

Don, I would say the spelling was Polonicised! Huge number of Polish immigrants, that's why.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

...thanks, Volgadon, etc., and, as it happens, I just recorded and copy/pasted a MaZlO over the MazloV on my Audacity recording software, today, so that's how it will be on the next CD I burn, or if I put it on myspace for a while, which I may do soon.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 08:18 AM

Following the free-market farce of the last week, this week's
WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G. is...

Poem 105 of 230: GLOBAL REGULATIONISM

No income-scale would be unjust -
    It's a matter of degree;
And, to have less inequality,
    Regulations are a must.

For, in Millennium's status quo,
    The pay-gaps for human work,
And what's gotten simply as a perk,
    Are wrong - inhumanely so.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 05:05 AM

refresh.Why not...
Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 06:51 AM

WAV, herein lies
the rub,
which regulations,
on what,
how much,
and
by whom.
Define for me inequality,
I do insist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 08:55 AM

Dear Academic Forklift Driver; please tell me who the regulators will be, and how I will get the chance to vote for or against them? You propose the UN as a regulator; this is an appointed, rather than elected body, with built in advantages for more prosperous or powerful nations. Not really a democrat, are you WAV? Fits with a lot of the totalitarian rubbish on other threads though. Alternatively, are you proposing wholesale reform of the UN too? Pray tell, how will you go about this, and what will your first steps be?
Tim (still waiting for answers to lots of other questions)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:05 AM

Tim - on another thread, folks, whether or not they also be forkies (confused newbies please see the "5000 Morris Dancers" thread), detailed some of the problems with the UN - which SHOULD be strictly one nation/one vote.
Volgadon - with all due respect, please spend half a day and read the works! for the details, while I watch the final rubber of the Davis Cup.
Yours frankly,
WAV the folkie/forkie tennis fan

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

I have read the works, I want more information. Details, especially. Surely someone with your impressive qualifications would be able to provide them. I'm willing to wait until you've finsihed watching that French import.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM

Yes forkydorky, I know the UN should be one nation one vote; I asked you what you, in your omnipotence, propose to do about the fact that it isn't? How would the people of the whole world elect their representatives (given that western liberal democracy is by no means the most common form of government in the world)? More importantly, how would you ensure the legitimacy of all these representatives?Volgadon is right; there are no details in the 'works', just lots of half-baked and mostly racist idiocies.
Back up your ideas, or pipe down until you can.
Tim (still waiting for 'frank answers' on another thread.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

I want to know how come Wavey favours the very Americanised 'gotten' over the more Anglicized 'got'. Can it be that 'gotten' is also the preferred form in Australia, and that Wavey ain't quite as English as he thinks?

Ruth(from a still cookieless iPhone)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 01:56 PM

To be more precise, Volgadon, there are 2 "French imports" in the form of Real Tennis courts in merry England - 1 in London and 1 in "little London"/Newcastle upon Tyne; I'm yet to try either...anyone ever played French Real Tennis..?
From tennis to the other Tim: as I said when the matter of the UN came up on another thread, if things were to change radically and I became such a world-leader, I'd be a macro- NOT a micro-manager - leaving it to experts in their field to flesh-out the details of my big-picture.
Or could it be, Ruth, that such is the extent of AmericaniSation these days, it's even gotten/got to let's-keep-England's-end-up me?!...no such problem with the newly re-chalked Giant at Cerne Abbas, mind!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 02:19 PM

I have read the works, I want more information. Details, especially. Surely someone with your impressive qualifications would be able to provide them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:32 PM

You'd be a 'macro, rather than a micro manager'; in other words, you haven't got a clue how to even make a start on shaping the world as you would wish it to be.
Just to show how wrong you usually are; there are at least 26 real tennis courts in England, and over 4,000 regular players. New ones have been constructed recently, and a number of old country houses are renovating courts that have fallen into disuse. If you can't get this right by doing some elementary research, why should we pay any regard to your equally poorly researched ideas on geopolitics?
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:43 PM

Wav - educated English and Americans use IZE except for words like realise.

ISE is a French (Horror) import

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM

I case anyone missed it on the other thread. Coulda been worse. Check out the cargo!!

Uh-oh!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Sep 08 - 04:15 PM

Wav, I don't expect micro-level details, just more than what you have given.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:46 AM

And, as Don might say, Tim - that may be "touche"...I should have said 2 Real Tennis venues in England that I'm aware of/off the top of my head. But if you look back, it seems that, not long ago, you weren't aware of the Real and Lawn tennis difference at all.

Stu - Whilst different ways of pronouncing them are fine, the way of spelling English words should be SET in England - as I've suggested in verse, which I'll post again for newbies to this thread...

Poem 149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 06:58 AM

Er; I know the difference very well WAV; A cousin is a championship standard player in Real Tennis. I also know how to pronounce Maslow, and how to play a musical instrument properly. Your point was?
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM

Sorry WAV look it up in an English dictionary...

'The -ize spelling is preferred by some authoritative British sources including the Oxford English Dictionary — which, until recently, did not list the -ise form of many words, even as an alternative — and Fowler's Modern English Usage. The OED firmly deprecates usage of "-ise", stating, "[T]he suffix…, whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Gr[eek] -ιζειν, L[atin] -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling in -iser should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic."[4'

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

...Okay, Stu, but, as I just said, again, in verse and prose, to avoid such confusion, there should be just the one way of spelling - NOT pronouncing - English, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM

The shambles of a soul and art
Here, both combined in fell array,
With broken skills, seek to impart
Sad thoughts with nothing much to say.

How fallen are the gentle lights
Which Blake and Milton once employed,
Now ground to dullness and benight,
Echoing a mental void.

That rhytm, word, and muse as well
To such dull bathos could decay,
Decries the tale no man could tell
Of mortal dullnes, gang agley

Seeking in dusty corners far
Some glimmer, wit or token phrase,
To comfort souls in sullen bars
Against the pain of witless days.

Go then to paisley shorts and socks
of Argyle, shirts of tropic theme,
Turn to crochet, or painting rocks,
But leave alone the poet's dreams.

Take up accounting, spotting trains
Or inventory of city birds.
Haunt not this realm, with sodden brain
Turning the bright to the absurd.

Take not these shards from poets torn
And use their remnants tripe to spout;
We have enough, enough to mourn.
Go long, and far, and walk about.

Pineas Forgesong Gewirth, Abbot of Palmsfree
Getting-on-Inyeers, Lancs.
Drew Enfolie, Pubs., Edinboro, 1908

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

WAV< come on, answer. Give me some details, not on a micro level, but on a reasonable one, of your grand scheme for regulations.

Anyway, American diferences in spelling sprang up from Englishmen, who brought them over, and from people who were trying to remove the foreign, French influences on English.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:00 AM

Volgadon - standardiSation of the spelling of English, the language of such greats as Pineas Forgesong Gewith (just above), would be one detail of my "grand scheme for regualtions."...others would be nationalisation of facilities (easier to regulate as such); a stronger more-democratic, one nation/one vote, UN; wage and non-local restrictions in sporting competitions, etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:25 AM

Amos.
Brilliant!!
Shame WAV doesn't understand irony!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:02 AM

Alright WAV, who will reform the UN and enforce it's new regulations?
Or in other words, who will make the nations with veto power and multiple votes give them up? Why will the 192 nations, made up of various rivals and bitter enemies, suddenly choose to work together in harmony?
Who will see to it that things like 14 of the former SSRs won't gang up together and push through resolutions that are damaging for the 15th and largest? Just one example of many various problems. Who will control and oversee the UN's efforts? How will resolutions be enforced? If you give control to the UN chairman, guess what, you've succeeded in creating the first GLOBAL DICTATOR.
I'm not quite sure that you can have both a strong and a democratic UN. In something like that, it looks like either one or the other.

Which facilities are you going to nationalise?

What sort of wage restrictions and why?
As for restricting non-locals, have you considered what that might mean? One thought that springs to mind is that you will be tieying sportsmen down to their hometowns. Will they not be allowed to move for work, or will they have to reside for ex-amount of time in a certain place, in which case how will they be able to work for those five years (or however many you decide)?

Standardising English. What excatly do you mean. Are you going to ban all books and documents written in non-standard English (aacording to you)? Are you going to penalise anyone caught using non-standard English? Who is going to pay to have all the changes made, who is going to decide what standard and who is going to enforce it on all English speakers the world over?

Have you considered any of the HUMAN impact your proposed regulations will have on people?

Amos, brilliant indeed, and shows that WAV doesn't do any research.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:38 AM

"Which facilities are you going to nationalise?" (Volgadon)...large ones, such as all public transport, such that, via regulations and modern IT, one could by a ticket from, say, any bus-stop in Cornwall to anyone in Northumberland.
The problems you mention with the UN will have to be overcome to make is stronger and more democratic; but it IS the best way forward, and it's good that it's been talked about here - the English media, e.g., give heaps more attention to the US than the UN, which is NOT a good thing, and I sometimes do my bit by making emailed complaints about it.
And not that long ago, English club-football, e.g., was regulated (although not quite as much as I'd like) and was, indeed, mostly-locals in meaningful competition, rather than the greedy meaningless foreign-farce it is now.
Finally, you accuse me of not doing any research, but all I've just said is on my site, which I think you claimed to have read..?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

WAV

Bollocks.

Yes I have read your site.
And was then, violently sick.
You have no answers. You don't even understand the questions.
Oh, and would you please remove that garbage that you call music from your Myspace page.
It's giving the rest of us, hard working (talented) musicians a bad name.
If you ever turned up at my Folk Club for a floor spot..... (Go Figure)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

If you had done reaserch, you would have seen that the only mention of Amos's poet in google is on this thread. I am not saying that if google turns nothing up then something doesn't exist, but it's a good indicator. Then go and read the poem, which clinches it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

I've read such posts from Amos for ages, Volgadon, and I think it's you who is misunderstanding things...perhaps I should have put an ! mark in my response above.
Ralphie - I've placed in a few NE folk-festival competitions (see here if you wish), where they don't have to award places, but do sometimes give feedback forms, which I've read and kept - much more positive than your opinion. But if you don't want me at your folk-club because my music makes you "violently sick" no less, perhaps you should say which one it is.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 05:34 PM

"Which facilities are you going to nationalise?" (Volgadon)...large ones, such as all public transport, such that, via regulations and modern IT, one could by a ticket from, say, any bus-stop in Cornwall to anyone in Northumberland.

I can see that, transport here was only privatised a decade or so ago.

The problems you mention with the UN will have to be overcome to make is stronger and more democratic; but it IS the best way forward, and it's good that it's been talked about here - the English media, e.g., give heaps more attention to the US than the UN, which is NOT a good thing, and I sometimes do my bit by making emailed complaints about it.

WAV, you'll be pleased to learn that I have located the logical fallacy in all your harebrained schemes. BELLING THE CAT!!!!!!!! Go read Aesop's Mice in Council.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:24 AM

Well the smurfs succeed in putting a bell on Azrael, so logically speaking I dont see a problem with WAV's schemes.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM

"I can see that, transport here was only privatised a decade or so ago" (Volgadon)...you mean Isreal (where I last heard you were living) or England? If you mean the latter, eureka, you've noticed I'm against some elements of the status quo!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

Here for me is Israel. Now what do you say about belling cats?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 05:13 AM

Please note that it is REAL but spelt IsrAel. Thank you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 10:42 AM

Well, I hope you, too, Volgadon, are campaigning for re-nationalisation.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM

"Well, I hope you, too, Volgadon, are campaigning for re-nationalisation."

No, because there hasn't been any substantial difference. They still run to all the places they used to, with the same frequency, which isn't saying much. There are far worthier causes.

Now answer me this. Have you considered the IMPACT your regulations would have on ordinary people?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

...yes, the regulationism I propose in walkaboutsverse.741.com - instead of the "democratic capitalism" for which George Bush just restated his support - definitely would make things better for "ordinary people" (Volgadon).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:16 AM

Are you in support of a regulation that would make the employer have to provide a good, solid reason for why he is hiring a foreigner, and if he can't provide one, then has to take a native?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:29 AM

The real difficulty with your interminable links WAV is that they never go anywhere except the same page. The result is that if anyone wanted to check on your pronouncements of self judged wisdom, he/she would have to wade through page after page of badly written rubbish to arrive at the point you are trying to make.

There's still the problem of recognizing when you arrive at the salent(?) point.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

Salient - the question was related to the likelihood of it being salient, not the typo

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

Okay Stu - next time I'll try to link to (or closer to) the actual poem, etc.
Volgadon - as part of such regulationism, I've said economic/capitalist (NOT all) emigration/immigration should be illegal, FROM NOW ON.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM

WAV, that was not my question.

Are you in support of a regulation that would make the employer have to provide a good, solid reason for why he is hiring a foreigner, and if he can't provide one, then has to take a native?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:14 PM

No, Volgadon - I've listed other kinds of immigration (medical, e.g.), and there should be no such regulation around it, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

I don't understand, is that a yes or a no.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:15 AM

Does, indeed, look like a "no" from this angle, Volgadon; but, as I say, I think economic/capitalist (not all) immigration/emigration should be made illegal, from now on.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:47 AM

"I think economic/capitalist (not all) immigration/emigration should be made illegal, from now on"

Why should people's freedom to work and live where they wish be curtailed? You would criminalise people who wanted out of this godforsaken shitehole of a society we've created for ourselves or escape from the misery of poverty to get a slice of the relative luxury we live in?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:15 AM

I maintain, Stigweard, that the other regulations I've proposed would make the world a much less unequal place, with much less of "the misery of poverty" you mention; and with eco-travel and fair-trade, rather than yet more conquest and economic/capitalist immigration/emigration, between nations.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

600.

So you're still happy to criminalise people wanting to live overseas? You did yourself - there's a whiff of hypocrisy about your argument WAV.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

Wav, how do you separate between economic/capitalistic immigration and other forms?
And why do you disaprove of that regulation I mentioned, is it because you wouldn't have been able to find a job?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

I was 3, Stigweard, and I stressed FROM NOW ON.
I've never studied medicine, apart from a bit of first aid, Volgadon, but imagine that there would be cases of some being able to live a much more comfortable life in another nation, which might be called "medical emigration" - with a self-explanatory difference from capitalist/economic emigration, I would have thought.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:07 PM

So, is medical the only acceptable form, and how can you tell the difference, someone could obtain a certificate from the doctor, yet go to work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 82 of 230: ON ACTS 4:32-35

Believers were all one in heart and mind -
    They shared their excesses, giving in kind.
No-one claimed any possessions one's own -
    Yes, it was socialism on the throne.

So not long were there desperate folk -
    Fair distribution was the tongue they spoke.
And wealthy owners would sell part their deed -
    Funds, via apostles, to those in need.

Yet today, all round our troubled earth,
    Some Christians, safe at their own snug hearth,
Vote for their electorate's Right-Wing party -
    That's hypocritical, it seems to me.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM

Geeziz Wavydoof......That one is just incredible crap and as poetry misses the mark by, oh say, roughly a million miles. All of your stuff is lousy but for god's sake man..........Did you know there is a difference between bad and aggrssively bad? I didn't until I read that piece of shit. A new low!

Did your mother think your father was just excessively hairy and never realize she'd been screwing a yak?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:03 PM

Strictly hypothetically, Catspaw, if I were to put one over you by plagarising say Milton, you'd still come up with the same alley-mouthed crude commentary - now get back to your kitty litter.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:11 PM

No Dude.....Just as in the case of your mother, I call a spade a spade.......or at least my NSHO. I don't care for Milton much so not liking it would be no surprise. Most of yours I've read just plain suck. Why not write one about your most used English instrument? Skin flute isn't it?......yeah, that's it!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM

So, is medical the only acceptable form, and how can you tell the difference, someone could obtain a certificate from the doctor, yet go to work. If I emigrated somewhere and got a job, would I be a capitalist imigrant?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM

Don't you mind plagiarising and misinterpreting the Bible WAV?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM

Stu, do you think that anyone who writes the crap he writes and preaches the bullshit he does is troubled by anything? Its not possible!

I think his biggest problem lately has been acquiring a new yak for his mother.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

When I read his posts I have an awful fear that elsewhere in the world he might be thought to speak for England.

Folks, he's not English but he is thankfully unique

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:35 PM

Not to fear Stu. Judging from the way he writes, I doubt he can speak well enough to speak for anything. Its a problem that comes with the yak genes......

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:36 AM

The above poem, Stu, is not writings as one's own - I've recognized which part of the Bible I'm interpreting.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:52 AM

So, is medical the only acceptable form, and how can you tell the difference, someone could obtain a certificate from the doctor, yet go to work. If I emigrated somewhere and got a job, would I be a capitalist imigrant?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

Misinterpreting and adding to in the interest of some strange distorted political agenda

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM

After all the pro-immigrationism of the Blair years, Stu, more-and-more MAINSTREAM politicians here are openly questioning immigration and the multicultural state.
"If I emigrated somewhere and got a job, would I be a capitalist imigrant?" (Volgadon)...yes - most, of course, would call that economic immigration/emigration but it is really, as I as, a hypothetical example of capitalist immigration/emigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:26 PM

Wavymumbles says: "yes - most, of course, would call that economic immigration/emigration but it is really, as I as, a hypothetical example of capitalist immigration/emigration."

Say what?......... As you as?   Geeziz Dude......Not only does your poetry bite the big one, so does your prose.....a fact many others have noted here as well. You need to relax. Take a break from finding a sutable yak for your Mom and go practice fellatio on your recorder or pocket flute.......whatever........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:22 AM

No, Catspaw, it's you that needs to shut your flap and take a nap - if people are permanently leaving a country for economic reasons (perhaps to "get rich") it is, in effect, capitalist emigration/immigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

So that's why your Mommy left England? It paid more going down down under, so to speak..............Capitalist immigration/emigration huh?

Okay, well I can see that...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM

...I think you've been on the catnip, again, Catspaw.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

Life ain't no yuk for a yak
Who carries his pack on his back
Whose progeny spouts hopeless crap
While Spaw refuse to try to to take a nap.





Hey! His doesn't scan. Why should mine?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:49 AM

A search on Google for the term CAPITALIST IMMIGRATION throws up but one true hit - see HERE. Could it be by any chance that our transient all-singing, all-dancing Antipodean Anglophile has coined this term himself? If not, perhaps he'd be so good as to supply other instances where CAPITALIST IMMIGRATION is an accepted term of sociological / anthropological / economic (etc.) theory.

Could this be yet another instance of WAV smoke-screening his racism with bogus theory and banal euphemism? Remember, according to WAV, it is because of immigration that English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:46 AM

on his website? If its there its gospel.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM

"If I emigrated somewhere and got a job, would I be a capitalist imigrant?" (Volgadon)...yes - most, of course, would call that economic immigration/emigration but it is really, as I as, a hypothetical example of capitalist immigration/emigration."

Even if I move for others reasons? I will need a job wherever I live, won't I?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:58 PM

Even if I move for others reasons? I will need a job wherever I live, won't I? (Volgadon)...Yes.
And, yes, I equated capitalist with economic immigration/emigration myself, WSK.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:27 PM

And ***POOF*** goes your pathetic nonsense in a cloud of dust much like the dust clouds you witnessed as a child when your mom was copulating with the yak. And of course your earliest song memory as you know is Mommy singing to you, "That's what I call balling the yak"............But as far as your theory goes.......well, its gone!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:38 PM

People, by their DNA, are brothers,
All of whom depended on their mothers
Up to a point; if I had my druthers,
People would be much nicer to each other.

IF they were, it is probably safe to say,
There might be a different and a better way,
WHere folks combined their efforts and their pay
And helped each other get by, day to day.

Of course, every system has abusers,
And even this idyllic scene would probably involve some takers and some users,
Who would puff them selves up and say they were just choosers,
And look down on everyone else and call them losers.

Sakkar Reine-Sloppe, Vestal Virgin, Temple of Tanit
Sardinia, 083 A.D.
Translated by Weecan Helphitt,
Ancient Whines Without Reason, Cagliari, 1954

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:47 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:51 PM

"Even if I move for others reasons? I will need a job wherever I live, won't I?"

Unless, of course, you're WAV, who apparently is on the dole. I wonder what is worse, WAV: being an immigrant who works, pays taxes and never has had a penny off the state (like me) or a "re-pat" who presumably has paid very little into the system, but relies on state support? Is that how you support your "own good English culture"?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:05 PM

I'm getting confused here.

If I were an avowed Socialist and I moved to another country to take a job, would that make me a Capitalist immigrant?

Lemme put the question another way:    when lunchtime comes around, if I go out in the kitchen and make myself a sandwich, does that mean that I am therefore a sandwich?

This is getting pretty metaphysical. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:14 PM

Dear Don - if you were a genuine socialist, you would surely not leave your land for monetary reasons, i.e. you would not become a capitalist/economic immigrant.
Ruth - maybe from my next interview I'll get a job, instead of "Why ON EARTH did you come back"/"you must be mad". And, in order to get at me and brag about yourself, you've just offended others who ARE trying to get BACK into work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM

"if you were a genuine socialist, you would surely not leave your land for monetary reasons, i.e. you would not become a capitalist/economic immigrant."

And why wouldn't I, if there were no jobs available to me here and there were in another country? You're suggesting that I starve to death as a matter of economic principle?

You'll have to explain that a bit more fully.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

"Even if I move for others reasons? I will need a job wherever I live, won't I? (Volgadon)...Yes."

Really? Even if I married a girl from another country and moved there to make things easier for her and got a job to support our new family (which is in the Bible you claim to believe), I would still be a capitalist immigrant?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:22 PM

No...Don has it. You would be a sandwich.

Ham on rye
I might buy
If I had a job
To fill my gob.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

"And, in order to get at me and brag about yourself, you've just offended others who ARE trying to get BACK into work."

No bragging, Wavey - just home truths. I've been unemployed for all of about 3 months (and that was post-childbirth) since I arrived in this country nearly 18 years ago. Even when my daughter was little and my husband worked, I was a stay-at-home mum in the day, and then went out in evenings and at weekends working in restaurants and pubs.

As a good socialist I firmly believe in the welfare state, and in the underlying principle "from each according to their ability, to each accoring to their need." But personally, I would have been very uncomfortable receiving benefit in a country where I had contributed little or nothing to the tax system.

Don't worry, I don't begrudge you benefitting from the taxes I've been paying all these years, Wavey, with all my dirty foreign labour - even though you resent my foreignness diluting your culture.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

Ooooh - look what I said back in August (stumbled on whilst page was loading, rather than a deliberate trawl - I'm honestly not THAT sad...)


' "Closing the borders is one way to avoid facing certain bitter truths."

Indeedio. But what happens when they close the borders and you STILL can't find a job? Who do you blame then?'

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM

Ah, HAH!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM

Don - recall "safety nets" are part of my proposed regulationism.

"Really? Even if I married a girl from another country and moved there to make things easier for her and got a job to support our new family (which is in the Bible you claim to believe), I would still be a capitalist immigrant?" (Volgadon)...No, you would not be, in my view - as the emigration was for love/marriage.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

Then my question is, HOW can you tell the difference?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

and what happens if, like me, you later separate? Should I have been compelled to return to America when my marriage ended?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:54 AM

No, Ruth - the initial act determines what kind of immigration/emigration it is/was; and that, plus a bit of common sense, answers your question, too, Volgadon.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:16 AM

Yeah, but Geez Wavylimpdick, you really don't want some American fouling up your pristine English vision now do you? No......that'd be nasty huh? It'd be like the time your Mom played "Glory Hole" with the entire crew of an American carrier.

BTW.......You're getting deeper and deeper into the racist/segregationist role.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:49 AM

You've not seen Green Card, have you?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM

Yes, Volgadon, and the USA could set a good example by ending it, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

The movie?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM

He's right, Volgadon. Andi McDowell was terribly wooden.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM

The movie was terrible, no arguments, but it's the premise that I ment.
Depardieu wasn't much better than McDowell either.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM

I mean the system/lottery itself, Hollwoodies.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

Wav, how are your regulations going to differentiate?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

All of his will come with a piece of real salt water taffy!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM

oooh, I'm going home to New Jersey in a few weeks - I'll be buying some salt water taffy!

(I do hope that WAV's draconian immigration policies won't be adopted in my absence, preventing my return - I've got a festival to programme.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM

Hollywood, New Jersey, Sidmouth...a jetset Prudhoe Pixie/Ruth.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

And Lincolnshire. But I don't travel on a shoestring.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:14 PM

Its hard to get good seating on a shoestring. Airliners generally have larger seats and are more comfortable.

Wavy probably likes it though..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

Took the words right out of my mouth, spaw. Not only are airliners bigger and more comfortable, you don't trip over them either.

Anyway Wav, I would hardly apply the term jetset to places like Newark, Camden, Bergensfield and JC.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM

John and Iris freely say, like George and Tammy before them, "We're Not The Jetset"

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM

(NOT the Weekly Walkabout)
Poem 19 of 230: JET

With time-based rail passes,
    As many youth still do,
I caught the trains through Europe -
    A good time it was, too.

But, late one night in summer,
    I ran full-on in vain,
Through quiet streets in Paris,
    To catch the London train.

And, at that Paris station,
    They closed the doors throughout,
For cleaning through the morning,
    Insisting - stragglers out.

So it was that a few of us
    Spent the night on the street,
And, I do declare to you,
    It left young me dead beat.

Yet there are many stragglers,
    Within the human domain,
Spending all their nights as such -
    While others own a plane!

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM

Oh, but it's all glamour in south Jersey, Volgadon.

*ROFL*

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

Wav, under your regulationist regime (what a silly term), how would you prove that YOU aren't a capitalist immigrant.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:41 PM

Well Vol, he seems to be unemployed. Does that count?   Maybe he's trying to get work as a blowboy by showing his TECHNIQUE using a recorder as a substitute.

What does that pay in the UK? And is there more work there than in Oz? Here in the States, both sexes can make a pretty fair annual pay at it. Say Wavyflabbus, are you self-employed or is your mother in business with you?

Just playin' the dozens here............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:14 AM

WAV that poem contains several of the worst poetic lines I've ever read. Top of the awful tree is

And, I do declare to you,
    It left young me dead beat.


And just for me try getting rid of the commas dotted here and there like currants in a bun.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Joe P at work
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:22 AM

What I dont understand is that if someone wants a job then they can usually find a job. I found a job here in Hull on the day I wanted to start, in the field I wanted to work in.

Surely someone with both academic and technical qualifications should be able to find SOMETHING? Join an agency maybe?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:07 AM

And, at that Paris station, they closed the doors throughout,
For cleaning through the morning, insisting - stragglers out.
So it was that a few of us spent the night on the street,
And, I do declare to you, it left young me dead beat.

Structured like this, one could very well sing it to the old Mutton Pie melody and stick a fol-the-diddly-dido / fol-the-diddle-day chorus after it too. Also, anything that fits Mutton Pie (and quite a few things do) also fits the tune of the Holy Modal Rounders' Same Old Man. Otherwise, it's the sort of thing one might smile at if one found it anonymously scrawled on the door of public toilet - which isn't to taint public toilet folk verse by associating it with WAV's drivel, rather to suggest a more appropriate context for it. The dynamic sense of the thing in terms of narrative is entirely mired by the sentimental superfluity of the last verse as the poet vainly struggles to connect his subjective misery to the wider issues of the objective world that so constantly, and consistently, elude him. Or is that the point (one can't help but wonder)? If so, such noble sentiments are but the flotsam on the tide of a manifest bitterness of personal failure and general inconsequence that pervades his work as a whole and is the root and cause of its expressed racism. Even his desolate cry of I love the world being multicultural is one of the misanthropic outsider cast adrift in a search for the centre of his own little universe wherein he, and his Life's Work, is all that matters. Whatever the case, in Poem 19 of 230, Walkaboutsverse has provided himself with the perfect epitaph: A Straggler in the Human Domain.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:26 AM

"Wav, under your regulationist regime (what a silly term), how would you prove that YOU aren't a capitalist immigrant." (Volgadon)...birth certificate, passport.
To Stu and WSK/How much can a koala bear? - you may, then, be pleased to know that poem 19 of 230 did NOT become one of my Chants from Walkabouts. But as for "bitterness of personal failure" (WSK)...I'm quite content with my 4 techinical certificates, BA in humanities, travel through 40 countries, A-grade junior sports trophies, etc., thanks pal; also many of my poems were written when I had both a job and a partner; and, to Joe P, maybe from my next interview I will indeed get the job, instead of "Why ON EARTH did you come back?"/"You must be mad!"/"Most people go the other way!", because not everyone takes that attitude.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:35 AM

Maybe you have no job because you interview poorly. If you're anything at all in an interview as you seem to be around here, its no wonder you're unemployed! When asked a question in the interviews, do you quote from your "Life's Work" and ramble on ad nauseum about your single degree and forklift prowess?

Have you considered your lack of employment may simply be because you come off as such a complete asshole in your interviews? I can easily see how it could be the problem.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM

666
Go Figure

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:30 AM

WAV....
You had a partner?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:38 AM

"Wav, under your regulationist regime (what a silly term), how would you prove that YOU aren't a capitalist immigrant." (Volgadon)...birth certificate, passport.

How does that prove anything?
All that proves is that it is easier for you to be a cap. immigrant.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

A capitalist immigrant who can't get a job...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:16 PM

I'm an English repat, Volgadon, actually born the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the world cup, thanks. And, Catspaw, I do of course keep my political mouth shut at interviews, but am not so sheepish re. my fork lift truck licence, as one never knows when the usual fork lift driver may not be available.
And fancy Ralphie posting at 666!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:29 PM

No forklift opening huh? Or are you doing better on the dole?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:43 PM

I don't think any government gives a tinkers dam WHAT day you were born on. How do you prove that you emigrated from Australia to England on idealistic grounds? For all they know you are an Australian (after all, you lived most of your life there) who 'returned' to the motherland for financial gain.
Maybe all immigrants born on the day that Ramsey's team won the cup should be let into England.....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

Volgadon - you have picked all manner of bones with me but, fair go mate!, as an Aussie may say, I'm AN ENGLISH REPATRIATE: left at 3, RETURNED at 30.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

Answer the question, mate.
We all know you returned at 30, but why did you return?
How do you PROVE that you emigrated from Australia to England on idealistic grounds? For all they know you are an Australian (after all, you lived most of your life there) who 'returned' to the motherland for financial gain.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:43 PM

Volgadon - It occurred after studying "Pre-Colonial Aboriginal Society"; "Aborigines and the State", etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM

What occured?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Joe P
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:22 PM

So you 'returned' to the UK so that you could give land back to the Aboriginal people of Australia?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:17 PM

Why do I smell another covert racism post about to occur?

And btw Wavypeaballs, Alf Ramsey molested Cocker Spaniels then sent them to your mother..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:14 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 2 of 230: WALKABOUT WITH MY PEN

Once drove an old sedan, up north,
    From a place in Sydney to Cairns;
Then to Kuranda I went forth,
    By train, to look without set plans.

I browsed through the trendy market,
    With fresh fruits of tropical kind;
Walked to the creek through lush thicket -
    Nature's hand giving peace of mind.

I dined in a scenic cafe;
    Then, outside, as I wrote for yen,
Some passing Kooris called-out: "Hey,
    You go walkabout with your pen."

Request or question, I don't know -
    Assured voices, elderly men.
That's now several years ago,
    And I've seen the world - with my pen.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com
Or have a listen to it sung on myspace.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:03 AM

Oh everyone do listen to the above. Wav - I listened, and I thank you for the best belly laugh I have had for months.

Poetry it isn't. Song it isn't. It is wonderful comedy - honestly.

If you're not an intentional comic you should be.

Musically lacking, with the most tortured non-English stress patterns I have ever read or heard, it is the height of unintentional(?) farce.

I thank you sir for the tears of laughter; for the ache of the laughing muscles in my stomach, for the almost dislocated jaw and for the hyperoxygenation that can only come from the best act of the best comedians.

Are you real or are you an invented persona?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:00 AM

..with a range of MC to B (newly worked out via playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...on my beloved English flute), it's one of 17 CHANTS from Walkabouts, Stu.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM

LMAO.....oh that's rich.....

Wavy has hit a new low!!!! This is a must listen and stu tells it like it is.

Wav, I don't know about MC to B but I can safely say your talents run the entire range from A to B................well, maybe not................maybe just A to A...............You really do suck.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:33 AM

Ya' know I'm not sure which particlar disastrous part of that piece (of shit) had me laughing the most but I have decided the word "tropical" is my choice. Tro-Pee-Kull?

On an overall basis though the singing itself outdoes all else in comedic value but as an individual laugh I'll go with tropical.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM

Sorry it's really not your beef Stu nor Spaw...but, remember, these things are subjective.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM

Wav, how do you prove to the immigration authorities that your motives were pure?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:29 AM

Testing, Volgadon.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:54 AM

Come in, WAV, do you read me, WAV?
Wav, how do you prove to the immigration authorities that your motives were pure?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:27 AM

He used his mother as a reference. Well known to the authorities, she was like a fine shotgun......two cocks and she blows! They could always count on her because just like a Liberian tanker, she went down all the time.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM

Me, Volgadon - nothing as I repatriated, with my passport and birth-certificate; and get off that catnip, Catspaw, and wash your foul mouth out of it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:16 PM

S&R - Isn't that the one that has the "hoo-hoos" in it? That's the part where the tears of laughter were running down my face.

I'd still like to know how exactly WAV feels he's benefitting "good English culture" by emigrating here - sorry, repatriating - only to become dependent on the state.

Do you not feel guilty in telling people like me that we oughtn't to be here when my hard work and money are keeping you?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:48 PM

Ah, but Wav, why should repatriates be any different, especially if they lived most of their lives outside of their native land?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

"Hoo-hoos", Ruth, follow the words called out to me; the whistling follows the on-the-move words; and the humming follows the mention of "peace of mind". And, believe it or not, some have liked "Walkabout with my Pen".
Also, as I've said, maybe next time from an interview I'll get the job instead of "Why ON EARTH did you come back"/"You must be mad", etc.
And at least now, Volgadon, you've accepted the fact that I am a repat., if not, presently, a very successful one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM

But you have refused to answer my question, which is obviously uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM

Honestly WAV I don't think anyone gives a hoot what part of Australia you come from, or why.

Many of us would enjoy reading your poetry if you edited it and revised it and removed the suspect ideas. We might even make suggestions as to how it could be improved (steady now everyone before you suggest ways).

I hope you get a job. I hope you earn a lot.

Your employer might require you to learn new skills....

Please talk to a good singer and ask his/her advice.

Please send you poetry to a publisher other than a vanity publisher.

Please stand for Parliament.

Please join a morris team

Please don't buy any more commas from the comma shop


Au revoir

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

So, having asked on the ENMU thread, it does seem to be Stu the teacher who left England for France - repatriate, pal, and we can have a go at "The Tyne Exiles Lament"...and dedicate it to Volgadon!
Also, do you think the Evening Chronicle, NE Poetry Journal, etc., are "vanity publishers" Stu...?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM

I like the song, but please, learn HOW to sing before hurling it at m.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

"Also, do you think the Evening Chronicle, NE Poetry Journal, etc., are "vanity publishers" Stu...?"

Please list here, without linking to your bloody website, all of the publishers who have PAID YOU for your work. An equivalent PAID gig list would be very welcome.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:05 PM

I was published in the Red Star penny a word page at eight years old. It was poetry. I earned enough to go to the pictures.

I do not include it in my CV.

For interest: From the North East Poetry Journal Rules

Editorial Policy


*Poems are accepted in good faith to be the work of the named persons; the views they express are theirs alone.

*Poems must not be offensive or incite racial and religious hatred.

*Spelling mistakes, poor grammar, and misuse of punctuation marks are corrected as a matter of course.

*Poems are reviewed sensitively; changes are made only when absolutely necessary.

*No further permission will be sought from the poets prior to publication. However, if you wish to see a pre-print copy of your poems, please send a stamped self-addressed envelope when submitting your poems.

*Since the Journal caters for poets living in the North East, please make sure to state your location.

*The Poetry Journal can be downloaded from the Internet free of charge. If wish to buy a copy, please make your cheque for £3.50 payable to Lanchester Community Association.

Hardly a National then

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM

As of today this page has been visited 57 times It contains some poems. It can be downloaded free of charge.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:47 PM

So they publish everything that's submitted.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:31 AM

Only if you live in the North East...
A familiar concept.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:50 AM

"Please list here, without linking to your bloody website, all of the publishers who have PAID YOU for your work. An equivalent PAID gig list would be very welcome." (Ruth)...I've made it clear that everything I've done on the folk and poetry scenes, thus far, has been as an amateur - just a few mini free-drinks/entry type gigs/spots.
Stu the teacher - you better look up what vanity publishing is...the description from you that I responed to a few posts back (and I stand by my response).
And some of you do, I feel, fall into the trap of knocking things and folks YOU WOULD NORMALLY SUPPORT in your desperation to put one over WAV.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:06 AM

Who paid for your book WAV?

No problem with your attempting anything - just with you self professed expertise on topics where you are a tyro.

If you put yourself up as an Aunt Sally, don't be surprised at the responses.

Is your website vanity publishing? Or what is the motive?

I and others have offered support, comment and friendship over your threads. Your hectoring and posturing have alienated many of us.

Why do I post? I feel that your efforts are meritorious; I would wish however that you were rather more self critical than pompous, and that you recognized that on a public forum you are what you post.

I repeat my points above (or elsewhere I can't be bothered to look).

You are not yet a poet, nor a folkie, nor a political pundit. You are a wannabee. That is what your posts and publications tell me and others on this site. I applaud your efforts and interests but reject your results and conclusions

Stu (French Educator?)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:33 AM

And just a thought. No-one is interested in putting one over on you. You do that yourself.

I believe that you do my nationality a disservice with friends across the pond and elsewhere. I have not authorized you to speak on my behalf as an Englishman.

I believe that you do my interests a disservice with anyone who reads youur postings. Whatever folk music is, it isn't how you represent it to the world.

I believe that your lack of coherence reason and logic in your posts offers a disservice to university education, which in turn devalues the qualifications which I and others obtained.

I teach. I encourage students to learn and to develop ideas; to question and justify their conclusions. I continue to learn every day of my life. I defer to those whose studies can inform me, and to those whose skills can inform my skills.

I have no interest in getting one over on you or anyone else. I have no point which I need to prove.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

OK Chaps.

Just done an audit.
Nat Istrument thread...........563
Walkaboutverse2 thread.........703
5000 Morris Dancer thread......724

Grand total...................1990 posts
Has he changed his bizarre view on life?
Is he going to?
Are we wasting our time?

Thats enough publicity for this person. (I say person, not Singer, Musician, Poet, That would be too demeaning for those of us who attempt in whatever way we see fit, to further ALL of the Arts that we are involved with).

Who else on Mudcat has enjoyed this much oxygen of publicity?
We are all suckers.
Lets all go and talk to some of the many interesting and erudite people on other threads, and leave Wav to his weird world.

(you could say "Mudcat is WAV-ing goodbye"...with apologies to Sooty!)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:45 PM

My work in manufacturing paid for the travel and the self-publication of my life's work, Stu; and I did so as I'm sure it contains good ways forward for humanity, Stu and Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

it contains good ways forward for recycling, Wavey Davey. Little else.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:27 PM

Since I only have an electronic copy of the "life's work" am I going to have to find a virtual recycling center?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM

Mate, the "delete" button is just as effective.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

Truth be told I have only gone to the site of VAV's life's work a couple of times and didn't read that much while there. It's tough enough to slog through them here. The discussions that swirl around him can be fascinating, though, even if his poetry isn't.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM

I have briefly looked at "recycling" Ruth - see poem # 92, if you like.
How's the weather in Iowa, KB - bit of a swirl, but we had quite a nice autumn day here in Newcastle.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM

The weather here has been lovely WAV, thanks for asking. Mid 70's F with a lot of sun and a slight breeze. Fall is definitely in the air. Looks like rain for the next couple of days.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM

"see poem # 92, if you like."

Keep dreaming, Crocodile Dundee. I'd rather be bitten on the arse by a funnelweb in the dunny than engage with another syllable of your risible "life's work".

Compost heap, recycling bin, delete button: all the same. Excrement finds its own level.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

"I'd rather be bitten on the arse by a funnelweb in the dunny"

Ruth, if you can be in Burton-on-Tweed this coming Saturday, then I think that can be arranged. Just ring up Bertie Wooster on 112 Staunton Street when you arrive, and we'll take it from there.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

I've read about vanity publishers in Writer's Digest magazine, and there are a number of vanity presses listed in the classified ads in the back of the magazine. They are for people who are absolutely desparate to get published and who have either been rejected by forty-eleven publishing houses or who are too chicken to submit their work for the scrutiny of an editor. Vanity presses don't pay the writer an advance or royalties, nor do they get involved in distributing the book. A vanity press charges the writer to "publish" (i.e., print and bind) the book. Then, it's up to the writer to sell them.

They often offer some additional services, such as cover design--for which the writer pays extra.

There is very little difference between self-publishing and vanity publishing. Really indistiquishable as far as I can see.

The usual result is that that the aspiring writer winds up with a box of 500 books under his or her bed. No. Make that 488. They've manage to get rid of twelve of them by giving them away as Christmas presents to friends and relatives (who generally find them quite useful for propping up the short leg of a wobbly table).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

what about the ones foisted on bewildered local librarians? That must account for another 20 or 30...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

Oh, yeah. Forgot about those. My wife (who works at the Seattle Public Library) says that, in general, fifteen seconds after the author who contributes the books walks out of the library, there is a loud THUNK in a nearby waste basket.   (Shhhh!).

By the way, the books are pretty good for lobbing out the bedroom window at alley cats yowling on the back fence in the middle of the night. Much preferable to the traditional shoe, because you don't have to go outside the following morning, muttering and cursing, to retrieve the shoe.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM

In 9th grade I had a frightful teacher, who taught literature, grammar and Old Testament. She always had it in for me for reasons unknown, but would brag about what a great poet she was, putting herself on a par with the current greats, and she even had a volume published and a copy in the local library. Well, I was by the poetry section once and noticed it sticking out conspicously, but closer examination revealed that it had been checked out a grand total of 3 times in 15 years. Twice by her, once by her husband.
The poetry was dire, unsurprisingly.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:53 AM

...seems you've also been learning from Catspaw, Ruth...and weren't you off to visit American after having your paws done?
My life's work was self- NOT vanity-published, Don: I did level 2 desktop publishing to come up with a sturdy folky A4 paperback; and level 1 web design to come up with walkaboutsverse.741.com
And, since then, some have been published in newspapers and journals, with editors who DON'T publish everything (use DF link from the above link for details, if you wish); and, yes, paperbacks have been gifted to 10s of libraries.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:17 AM

you published it yourself. This is quite different from being a "published author", where some level of editorial process and criticism would be invoved. How is this different from vanity publishing? Both are equally onanistic. The point is, you believe this manifesto to represent some "way forward for humanity". God knows you keep shoving it under people's noses. If there were any ideas worthy of real consideration, surely some editor of political or social polemic would snap it up and publish it more widely?

I am indeed off to visit America soon - but first I had an event to organise in London, celebrating the folk song legacy of Vaughan Williams. Tell me, what did you do with your weekend? Chew on your plastic recorder some more?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:43 AM

The difference between that and vanity publishing is quite simple.
Vanity is easier, cheaper and less time-consuming than printing a large amount of your own books. The quality of the binding is often (but not always) better.

That said, not all vanity publishing is onanistic. I know some genuinely good writers who used vanity publishing because their work was turned down by numerous printhouses because their topic wasn't quite what the market wanted at the time. Some of the books have been subsequently picked up by proper houses.

The biggest problem with vanity press is that there are absolutely no quality checks.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM

My work in manufacturing paid for the travel and the self-publication of my life's work, Stu; and I did so as I'm sure it contains good ways forward for humanity, Stu and Ralphie

Always worth a laugh or two, reading that. I'll tell you what is a good way forward for humanity, it's not the UN, it's not dense poetry which doesn't really say anything, but it is popular movements like my friend Max Goryachev's 'Revolution of Goodwill' (or kindness), helping people to get out and DO something, not merely walkabout with their pen.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:03 AM

Ya' know Wavytinyballs, you are such a humongous asshole and your "Life's Work" is such a tiny and fetid piece of crap-laden claptrap that you should have no problem shoving it up your ass. LOL.....The very idea that the world could be better served by following your teachings is both laughable and grotesque.

Once again please look in the mirror at your racist and bigoted self and say, "I am a totally worthless excuse for a human being." Of course you could pass on that and just go around the world again.......with your mother. I hear she goes around the world quite well and quite often.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM

"some level of editorial process and criticism would be invoved" (Ruth)...yes, I did that, and virtually everything myself - but, as you just IGNORED, these other publications do have an editor who does suchlike. And, yes, Ruth, whether or not you deserve it, it seems you are indeed being given a lot more opportunity from English people than I, a highly-trained English repatriate born here the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football, at the moment...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

HIGHLY trained?

Have you written on your resume that you were born on the day that Alf Ramsey on the world cup? Might help....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM

"And, yes, Ruth, whether or not you deserve it, it seems you are indeed being given a lot more opportunity from English people than I, a highly-trained English repatriate born here the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football, at the moment..."

The sort of opportunities you should be MORE entitled to because of an accident of birth, WAV? I've always known that one of the biggest chips you carry on your rather overburdened shoulders stems from a resentment that foreigners - "capitalist immigrants" - are in work (work you're somehow more entitled to?) when you aren't.

Well, love, maybe I get work because I'm good at what I do. Maybe you don't cause you're not (despite your BA and your tennis trophies). Harsh, but true.

Where either of us was born is irrelevant - and what football matches might have been taking place as my poor mum was squeezing me out, I have no idea.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:41 PM

a degree is not highly trained = a few certificates are not highly trained. It adds up to a reasonable level of education but not out of the ordinary among members of this forum. Probably much of the content has been superceded since you took them.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM

Graduating from school and getting a degree or certificate of some kind is only the beginning of education. In school, the most important thing one should learn is how to learn.

Lots of people never get that.

I knew a woman who considered herself highly educated. Yet, she bragged that she had not "cracked a book" since she graduated from college.

Her education didn't seem to do her much good.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

...during the Blair years there was a record amount of immigration and a lot of pro-immigrationism here that was great for the likes of you Ruth, and difficult for a repat, who has questioned economic/capitalist immmigration, like me...but, in case you haven't noticed, things are just beginning to turn around...
Believe it or not Stu, I am quite a dedicated person and have allowed for that - e.g., purchasing an up-to-date Operations Management book, that shows things have not changed that much since my equivalent of a HNC.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

But you yourself are an immigrant! Repats are a category of immigrants. And just so you know, there are people like the Kalmyks who question the act of repatriation, which is a hotter issue there than immigration. They oppose repatriation on the same grounds as you immigration- take our jobs, dilute our own good culture with their foreign ways they bring back, and so on...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

LMAOLMAOLMAOROTFLMAO...........


Who gives a shit about the day you were born or Alf Ramsey or what either has to do with whether you deserve gainful employment. I really would love to have a tape of your next job interview......if you ever get another. I am reasonably sure you come off to them the same as you do here.


ALf molested Cocker Spaniels and I'm sure they were English Cockers............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:24 PM

"...during the Blair years there was a record amount of immigration and a lot of pro-immigrationism here that was great for the likes of you Ruth, and difficult for a repat, who has questioned economic/capitalist immmigration, like me..."

See, now we're finally getting to the crux of it. Great for the likes of me, was it? You think I've had my career handed to me on a platter, just because I'm an immigrant?

I have done my share of shitty jobs. When I first arrived in London I sometimes worked 60 hours a week in pubs - it's an expensive city, and there was no minimum wage at the time. Until my daughter was 4 I was a full-time mum all day who then worked evenings and weekends in pubs and restaurants. Tell me, instead of bleating about how you can't find manufacturing work, have you got up off your arse to find some - ANY - work that would mean you didn't have to be a burden to the English taxpayer? Or is that beneath you?

I re-trained specifically to work in my current profession - I took a specialist degree, and was working three part-time jobs at one point in addition to full time study and looking after my family. I came away with a 1st class degree and a shedload of practical experience, and haven't really looked back.

So there you go, Crocodile Dundee - if I'm one of Blair's babes (actually, I came to this country when there was a conservative government, while you were still singing Waltzing Matilda round the barbie) I've worked pretty bloody hard for the privilege. And yeah, I have a pretty nice life.

You resent people like me because we have what you don't. You would like to see laws that would keep us out, because you're a jealous, spiteful little man. But regardless of when or where you were born, you are no more entitled to a career or success than anyone else. At the end of the day, I've got a strong suspicion that it's your own social inadequacy that is far more responsible than all the immigrants in Britain for your current sorry state. Why not do yourself and everyone else a favour? Go home.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM

So you've got a degree, a certificate in manufacturing, a fork lift truck certificate, a level 2 desktop publishing, a level 1 web design certificate, you have photocopied and bound some A4 sheets, and read a recent book on operations management.

Is that it then?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM

I forgot grade A Junior football.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:26 PM

He's also got an A-1 rating certification as a wanker.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:12 AM

Ruth - if you were using your posts to promote ENGLISH culture (rather than Americanisation), if you weren't constantly attacking my character and telling me to "go home", and if you came across as a more reasonable competent person, I WOULDN'T mind you having gained such opportunity. You don't like people questioning immigration or it's effects on our culture and, therefor, society - and you use nasty unprofessional tactics to try and stop them (have a look back of some of your posts - of the other kind).
Stu - level 1 IT Certificate (a bit of level 2, also - in order to self-publish), Fork-Lift Licence, Certificate in Polymer Processing, Advanced Certificate in Manufacturing Technology, BA degree in Humanities - majoring in anthropology, with distinctions for many of my essays; and, with all that, I have tried for work well beyond the field of manufacturing - despite what Ruth has ASSUMED, above.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:27 AM

You don't like people questioning immigration or it's effects on our culture and, therefor, society

You have never explained just what effects on our culture (and, therefore, society) immigration has had. When asked, you either duck the question or refer us back to your racist rhetoric. Now please, WAV - take this opportunity to show us precisely the effects immigration have had on our culture that might justify the racist tirade of (say) English culture is taking a hammering. Also, show us how people are suffering as a result.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:42 AM

Wav, you'll find she uses her TIME and TALENTS to promote ENGLISH culture, or did you think that the RVW celebrations at C# House just spontaneously fell into place?

A certificate in polymer processing is decidedly UNIMPRESSIVE. It's usually a 6 month course and all it means is that the plastics factory can put you right to work looking after one of the machines without having to start from simple worker, the ones that put the stuff into boxes and stack them. It is nothing special and quite often people work their way into the same position without having to take a course. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Israel if you plan to make a carreer in maufacturing, you get a fork-lift license. Why? The factory has to give you slightly better wages and deference.

After 3 months in a cannery I am reasonably well skilled, without any courses or certificates. Really isn't difficult at all.

I'll repeat an earlier post, hope you reply instead of evading, as is your wont.

"But you yourself are an immigrant! Repats are a category of immigrants. And just so you know, there are people like the Kalmyks who question the act of repatriation, which is a hotter issue there than immigration. They oppose repatriation on the same grounds as you immigration- take our jobs, dilute our own good culture with their foreign ways they bring back, and so on..."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM

"Ruth - if you were using your posts to promote ENGLISH culture (rather than Americanisation), if you weren't constantly attacking my character and telling me to "go home", and if you came across as a more reasonable competent person, I WOULDN'T mind you having gained such opportunity."

That's one of the funniest posts I have ever read in my life, and awfully magnanimous of you, Wavey. I'd be very interested to know how I'm promoting Americanisation, apart from being American. Unlike you, I don't really like to blow my own trumpet about my achievements, but if you want to question my "competence", here are some excerpts from my recent CV:

Programme and Marketing Manager at a venue where I developed a strong programme of folk music (with an emphasis on English music), supported a composition project and showcase of new music by English traditional musicians, started a ceilidh series and ran a folk festival with a whole strand exclusively dedicated to English traditional music. Started an outreach project with local schools where kids learned traditional dance incuding rapper, longsword, morris and clog.

Currently the Artisitc Director of one of England's most prominent folk festivals, as well as the outreach officer for a project which develops and carries on the work we started at my venue with young people and traditional dance.

I am on the National Council for EFDSS, and as their representative was responsible for creating and delivering Saturday's Vaughan Williams celebration at Cecil Sharp House (you'll find details above the line).

Worked on other festivals and events as part of a wider career in Arts Management. I started running music sessions and one-off folk events about 20 years ago, as well as volunteerring at all sorts of events.

Admittedly, I've been a bit busy in the past few years to catch every single BBC folk programme or indeed to learn top-line melodies on my English nose flute, but the idea that, by challenging your dubious Nationalistic and racist tendencies I am not promoting English culture, is one I feel compelled to dispute. I love English culture, but abhor the way that you and your ilk twist it to suit your own deeply flawed political agenda.

Of course, I've probably only managed to do all this stuff because I'm a foreigner, and the government hands us everything on a plate. Once upon a time every foreigner got handed a corner shop on arrival, eh, Crocodile Dundee? Now they just give us a folk festival.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM

I forgot to say: I can't drive a forklift truck.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:16 AM

Also Ruth you have an error in this sentence:"....or indeed to learn top-line melodies on my English nose flute......"

He plays English Skin Flute, not nose flute. Just trying to help out...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:43 PM

Firstly, IB - you have again confused the questioning of immigration with racism; secondly, I have given examples of how conquest and mass-immigration have had negative affects on culture and, thus, society - and you, of course, went on to say those problems have nothing to do with the loss of culture, people no longer going to church, etc (remember now?).
My PP Cert. was 1 year, Volgadon; and I'd agree that is not one of the most highly skilled trades in terms of dexterity, but there IS a lot of knowledge comes into the moulding process - all the different polymers, the temp's required, the different moulds to fill without getting flashes or short shots...see poems 86, 92, 147, 200, if you wish.
I know that you are getting plenty of opportunities here, Ruth/Joan, and that you have repeatedly called me a "racist", told me to "go home", and made other defamatory marks that would certainly not help me get back into employment - rather than spunge off your's and other tax payers' money, as you have also accused of me of; not to mention repeatedly calling me "Crocodile Dundee"!. However, I admit, and am pleased, that there is indeed plenty of good English culture on the list you just gave; but why not "English country dancing" instead of (Scottish) "ceilidh"? My late Godmother told me of doing plenty of English country dancing at her English school - but I swear to God she didn't know what a ceilidh was.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM

Please ask yourself what it is in your pronouncements that repeatedly causes such vitriolic responses from nice people.

Please consider that you are the one soldier out of step.

Please read what you write, then edit it, then think of its effect on the rest of us normal kindly sincere people.

Then edit it again to read 'Sorry World, I've been so wrong all this time.

Pretty please?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

I am well aware of how and when E-ceilidh (not the Scottish or Irish forms) came into the English folk dance revival, and am happy to support and programme it as an accessible form of traditionally-based dance. I'm not having that stupid semantic argument with you again - it's just a name.

Why do you think i'm getting those opportunities, Waveydavey? Maybe because I work for them? Maybe even because I'm good at what I do? Do you think a native-born English person has a greater entitlement to the opportunities I have had because they were born here, regardless of whether they were more able to do the job?

I've told you to go home only once - and let's face it, you've made no secret of the fact that you'd prefer it if people like me had never come here, so it's tit-for-tat, really. But you are a racist, a xenophobe, a segregationist - call it what you will, it ain't nice.

I do the work I do because I love it, and because I passionately believe in its intrinsic value - not to satisfy some warped political agenda. I have also managed projects around Ghanaian drumming, Yoruban singing and dancing, African diasporan music and singing, Caribbean music and culture...oh, the list goes on. It's all part of the cultural mix of this beautiful country, which I love with all my heart. And it belongs to me, and all of the people of many races and cultures whom I've had the honour and pleasure to work with over the years, as much as it belongs to you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:43 PM

In case you haven't had chance to catch the news these last few weeks, Stu, the "World" has in fact moved at least a bit closer to my way - "Global Regulationism" (Poem 105), etc...Who's "been so wrong all this time"? But if you just can't listen to me, Stu: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM

What would you few silly fuckers who are arguing with WAV all the time on this thread do if he went away and you didn't have him to argue with anymore? ;-)

Worse yet...what if this entire Mudcat website collapsed and you couldn't argue with anyone here anymore? Then what???????

There ARE more dire threats than World War III or a global depression. Does it keep you awake at night worrying that these things might happen? I know it does me. Imagine it! Not having the chance to pick on WAV any longer. Wowee. Pretty scary. OOOOO-wee!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

Little Hawk, the answer is simple. I wouldn't argue with him, I have other ways to fill my time, but when he makes these ridiculous pronouncements I'm not going to let him get away with it. Pure and simple.
What would YOU silly F-er do if we weren't here to berate from your pedestal?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM

Why, I would hang myself from the old oak tree in the backyard, what do you think? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

In case you haven't had chance to catch the news these last few weeks, Stu, the "World" has in fact moved at least a bit closer to my way - "Global Regulationism" (Poem 105), etc...Who's "been so wrong all this time"? But if you just can't listen to me, Stu: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).<\i>

Be specific, Wav. No more vagueness. Tell us who in the world, when and what events, etc.

Something I forgot to mention about polymers is that it is frequently CHANGING. A certificate which is a few years old and NO practical experience is NOT impressive. Not to me, not to prospective employers neither does it add up to highly skilled.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

Well, on the face of it, it looks to me like Ruth, an immigrant from America (shudder shudder), is doing far more in the way of active, tangible things to promote appreciation of English folk music that David is. In fact, David's approach, which involves putting singers into a cultural straitjacket and dictating to them what songs they are allowed and not allowed to sing, strikes me as consistent with his other nazionalistic pronouncements.

Considering that a significant portion of folk song springs from peoples' resistance to oppression by those in power—protest songs, in fact, and often antinationalistic—attempting to cast folk music into some sort of nationalistic mold eradicates much of its very character. If he wants to ban songs, how long will it be before he wants to ban books? Movies? Television shows? What people should be allowed to say?

So despite all your degrees and certificates, David, you still haven't been able to find a job. Blaming this on immigrants makes for a very easy excuse (one which I've heard before).

But perhaps there are other reasons you haven't been able to find a job.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM

Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than him (Ecclesiastes)

Was it Zuleika " I don't know anything about music but I
know what I like"

WAV I don't blame you for the state of the world nor do I believe that there is any similarity in any of your postulated solutions and those proposed by skilled politicians and men of high intellect faced with a global crisis.

I do believe that your need to prove your strange outlook on life has just reached its most risible and distasteful in the latest of your YAH Boo Sucks arguments.

Pride, the never failing vice of fools (Pope)

The refuge of poor thought is the cliche. Yhere's a few above for you just in case you feel the need to vary the rather boring liberty thing (get another book of quotations for the after-dinner speaker)

Seriously WAV you don't understand trade, finance, economics as well as the other examples of matters that are beyond you such as music, tradition, verse/poetry. How do I know this? Because you tell us repeatedly in your banal and infantile posts.

Read, edit, think inany order.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:31 AM

I hate imperialism, Don - be it Nazi, Victorian or any other.
When it comes to performing (rather than just appreciating, AS I DO) other cultures, instead of their own, modern English are among the world's worst - or best, depending on your stance. You know I see this as a problem, a negative thing, for society, and you know I'm at least trying to do something about it.
At interviews, I do keep my political mouth shut, but still sometimes have to cope with: "Why ON EARTH did you come back"; "You must be mad"; "Most people go the other way"; etc. So, as well as my concern for society, of course it would be better for me personally if attitudes toward economic/capitalist immigration changed, and my repatriation was questioned less.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:40 AM

Have you considerd that everything might go a lot better if you'd show some ambition and a bit of humility? Combine that with not acting like such an asshole and you might realize that all these issues for you ain't diddly-shit to others.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:13 PM

...I'm not sure where he's from and whether it's an issue for him, Catspaw, but I thought the great Amos might have made a visit for our National Poetry Day...anyone else want to venture some verse?...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:29 PM

Have you people considered the possibility that WAV may simply be a bored chimpanzee in Brighton with a word processor who likes making up stories and provoking neo-liberal folkies, and he's entertaining himself daily here by waving the red flag before the bull, as it were, and then observing with wry amusement as the bull snorts, paws, and charges?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

Yes, but then he opens his mouth, er, I mean, types something, shattering the illusion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM

Whereas I think he is maintaining the illusion...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

COme one Little Hawk: what self respecting chimpanzee......


Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

Exactly.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

LH, I hope for your sake Chongo doesn't read this.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM

Poetry? He wants poetry?

Okay, how about this?

Algie saw the bear.
The bear saw Algie.
The bear was bulgie.
The bulge was Algie!
          —Red Skelton

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM

LOL! Well, yes, I get your point about the chimpanzees. It's so easy to slip over the border and verge into rank specism. I must be more careful about how I word things.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM

Little Hawk - whilst at least trying to maintain a sense of humour through the barrage, walkaboutsverse.741.com is indeed my genuine life's work.
And thanks Don.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

Yeah man.....WE KNOW its your life's work......and more's the pity!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM

Someone I know, who wishes to be known as His Brother's Brother, has also commenced a life's work.

Poem #1 The Meaning of Poetry

With my pen keeping time,
in a desperate attempt to
preserve a beautiful rhyme,
Wouldn't you?

#2 A Diet to End All Diets

Raisins, prunes and mandarins,
All are nice,
But so is plain boiled rice,
Best in humans, not so in mice.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

Amazing stuff there Volgadon. I think you should hunt up an on-line poetry forum and explain to them what they have been doing wrong all these years. I'm sure they won't mind.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

I used to burn with a desire to share my life's work with the world. ;-) Now I don't worry about that much at all anymore. I just live each day, that's all.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM

My life's work is not over yet. It won't be over until they nail the box shut.

And even then, it won't really be over. I have former guitar students who are out there performing--and teaching. That's a form of immortality.

In fact, the influence we have on other people during our lifetimes lives on in others in one form or another. One might want to think about that....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

I came home, tonight, knackered, from teaching,
I could see, from my east window
the absence of sunrise
it now being e.g., nine o'clock

My food, left, to marinade from
last nights, leftovers
enlivened with, forbidden, curry spices
which i should have enjoyed in e.g., India
or Bangladesh

I added no rice,
imported food, belonging,
to e.g., Asian countries,
but did add potato discovered by Raleigh
on his capitalist sailabout

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:20 PM

There are a great many things one might want to think about, Don.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:17 PM

Too true, Little Hawk, too true.

I've been thinking I should change strings on my guitar. They've been on it for quite awhile and they're starting to sound a bit dead.   Then there are a couple of Scottish ballads I'm learning. I've been thinking about them quite a bit, as I usually do when I'm learning a song. What should I have for dinner tonight? Isn't nationalism merely tribalism on a larger scale? The writers' group I belong to meets this Sunday afternoon; what, of the several things that I've written this past month, should I read? Did I re-up the prepaid minutes on my cell phone? (I should check that.) Do fish have belly-buttons? Are there really parallel universes? What is the meaning of life, the universe, and everything? Should I trim my toenails?

Lots of things to think about. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM

Wonderful! That's the spirit.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 61 of 230: WORSLEY VILLAGE

Where earliest of coal-canals meet,
    And have their waters ochred
By the seepage of old-deep-mine earth;
    Where mock-Tudor is a treat,
And classic boats are newly coated
    At dry-docks before rebirth;

Where miners made tough risky efforts,
    Working seams for hours non-stop -
Cramped, often without the room to stand;
    Where security experts
Now fill the Nailmakers Workshop -
    On a canal-made island;

Where offices come from granaries,
    And granaries from a forge -
Wheel-powered through a brook's tillage;
    Where coal moved down arteries,
And sandstone was quarried to a gorge:
    Lies antique Worsley Village.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 06:21 AM

ohmygawd................How in the hell can you write such fuckin' gawdawful crap? You can't possibly be serious which is why I feel no need to discuss any of this on a mature level. As a poet you make a good buttfuck; the living proof your mother screwed a water buffalo.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

Fancy not mentioning 50 miles of underground canals.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 11:47 AM

From MY life's work.

#3 Travels Not With My Pen but With My Keyboard

As on the banks of Babylon the refuges-helped-to-their-nearest-country-of-safe-refuge sat down,
So too, did I, e.g., sit down with my keyboard,
To travel the world round,
Or rather, to recal things which I saw and overheard,
Which might in in the hopeful-near-future to be found
Would prove the best way forward for humanity, I give my word.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

Now, Pat, you should know perfectly well that William McGonagall won everlasting poetic fame by doing fairly comparable work, work at which he toiled without surcease all the days of his life, and never did he yield one whit to the criticisms, discouragements, and mean-spirited snipings hurled at him by many insensitive publicans who were too crude to appreciate the lofty spirit that burned in the noble words he had writ.

Do you wish to be remembered as someone who failed to acknowledge the value of such art when it was thrust in his face?

I hope not!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:35 PM

Suits me. Perhaps McGonagall's Mom dallied with water buffalo as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

Just in case, "Worsley Village", above, is in Lancashire, where I've never seen any buffalo but plenty of the canals which Stu (and I if you look again) mentioned.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Master Baiter
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM

I found the following article, a letter to a parliamentary official, about "Sir Alf R." who I assume to be ?????? Perhaps catspaw49 wasn't kidding about the dog molesting as you see. Locations and date make it probable. Surprises me that more wasn't made of it at the time.







Dear Lord Richland:



        I am a board certified criminal prosecutor In Ipswich with over 12 years experience and approximately 150 trials to my credit. I write in support of Rule of Law #744 and in order to advocate for the necessity of this new law, I will start briefly by explaining one such case I have handled recently in this jurisdiction.



        In late 1964, I prosecuted the case of QB v. Sir Alf R., Circuit Case Number 2005-CF-3027. Sir R. had been charged by law enforcement with Felony Animal Cruelty, though the charge if available should have been Bestiality or Sexual Activity Involving an Animal. I will not go into the disgusting facts of the case other than to say Sir Alf R. was having sexual relations with his male dog, an English Cocker Spaniel. The complainant in the case called the police when she observed Sir R. fondling the dog. I will leave off further discussion by simply stating that in subsequent discussions with law enforcement, Sir Alf R. spoke freely about his regular sexual activities with his dog and said he would take the dog for a walk prior to sex to "prevent fecal impact." I have attached a copy of the probable cause (with the complainant's name omitted) so the facts can speak for themselves. As you can see, law enforcement incorrectly advised Sir Alf R. that they were investigating bestiality and that "it was a felony crime."



        We did our best to pursue the case on the charge of Animal Cruelty but this charge was not the best vehicle to properly address the crimes of nature committed by this Defendant. On the charge of Felony Animal Cruelty, the prosecution is required to prove a defendant intentionally committed an act against an animal which resulted in the cruel death or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering. For Misdemeanor Animal Cruelty, the prosecution must show the person has caused the animal to be overworked, deprived of sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, kills or carries any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner. I can easily envision such a case of Bestiality being charged as Animal Cruelty before the trier of fact, be it a judge or a jury, and the Defense expert veterinarian testifying that although he finds "the Defendant's behavior shocking and disgusting, the animal was unharmed and otherwise well cared for." If such a case ever made it to trial, the resulting acquittal would be an easy lesson for the prosecutor to learn.



        Other than the tenuous charge of Animal Cruelty, the only other means of addressing this crime of nature would be as a questionable misdemeanor offense under Stat. Section 755.01 which adopts the Common Law of England. Like most civilized nations, our legal forbearers understandably saw fit to address bestiality in the criminal courts. If this theory of the law were pursued, prosecutors would be left to attempt to utilize ancient English Law to address this criminal conduct. Such a prosecutor would clearly have an uphill battle. Although case law provides for application of the Common Law of England in some situations, I can envision much mention of our Declaration of Independence and the fact that "we make our own laws here" during pretrial motion arguments. A resulting dismissal of the charges would be understandable under this scenario.



        What we often hear in the legal realm is that "if the Parliament wanted something to be a crime then they would have passed a law against it." Litigants can rarely argue that the failure to pass a law was merely a timing or funding issue or that it would have been passed if we did not have financial troubles. If the Parliament does anything, it should use a small portion of its time to pass one of the most unanimously uncontested laws in recent history. There cannot possibly be any rational opponent of this bill.



        It is unseemly that a person can knowingly sexually violate any animal of their choice and this does not, by itself, seem to be against the law without some type of creative and possibly tenuous prosecution. The most important consideration for the Committee to address, however, is the impact this crime of nature could have on humans.



        The clear status of our law at this point is that Parliament has not prohibited bestiality. Bestiality is currently legal. As shocking as this is for the public to learn when such cases come to light, it would be even more shocking for the public to discover that a proposed bill was actually before this PArliamentary Justice Committee and the Committee failed to take any action to move this forward.   Acting on such an uncontested issue should use minimal time and resources compared to the many other issues that remain contested or debatable before you.



                                                                Respectfully,



                                                                Michael J. Bauer

       Ipswich Solicitor

       December, 1966

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:38 PM

I hope to God that Olive Whatnoll does not hear about this or we'll never hear the end of it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

Enough of that, let's get back to the poetry!

Here's a beauty, written by WAV:

26   UP ULURU?

Came in a coach from Alice -
    Slept nearby overnight;
An early call awoke us -
    Just before the morning light.

We were bussed to Uluru
    As the dawn began to break:         
Stopping to take in the view -
    A proud sight that rock does make.

Began the steep early-climb,
    Which, as marked, has claimed some life;
For youths it was just good time,
    But heavy aged-breaths were rife.

An hour or two later,
    After gazing from the top,
We returned to the charter -
    Kata Tjuta one last stop.

(P.S: in hindsight, I'm sure
    That from a distance to view
Is more kind, and more pleasure,
    Than climbing up Uluru.)




Match that one, Spaw! Betcha can't, betcha can't!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

#4 The London Underground

Came in an aeroplane from Heathrow -
    Tried to keep the in-flight meal down;
The pilot's voice awoke us -
    Glad you enjoyed your flight the currency is a sterling pound.

We traveled to London
    Not over half-an-hour did it take:
Observing all things quite new -
    Quite stunning the graffiti youths like to make.

Began the steep escalator descent,
    Which, as is well-known, can be quite crowded;
Youths wondered why doederant to elders was unkown,
      Elders heard buskers, wondered who'd allowed it.

A few moments or so,
    After not finding a space for seating,
We left the underground -
   Just one stop further in our travelling.

(Post Scriptum to whom it may concern: just might be
   That if afford it one can
A taxi-cab is faster, and funner,
   Than crowding in the tube like sardines in a can.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:12 PM

I believe that from Brother to be a parody on this...

Poem 43 of 230: A BAYSWATER BED-SIT

Arrived in London,
    At Heathrow Airport -
With sixty kilos
    Of luggage I'd brought.

Found a paper, Loot,
    And called an agent;
Stored two heavy bags,
    Then to him I went.

For one week of rent,
    He'd ensure a bed
Within Bayswater -
    A bed-sit, he said.

It was eighty pounds
    Per week, nothing more,
With a lift arranged
    To the building's door.

Knackered and sleepless,
    I took the deal;
Checked-in quickly,
    Had a rushed meal.

Collected my bags
    (Tube there, shared-van back),
Then carried them up
    To my top-floor shack.

A penthouse - no need,
    It did me just fine;
A cook-top and fridge,         
    A table to dine.

Seated, I could watch
    The clouds roll by -
Often from the west -
    Or jets cut the sky.

There were large plane-trees,
    A squirrel or two;
And pigeons dropped by -
    Foregrounding the view.

Plus, at dawn, the sun
    Shined in from the east -
Filling the small room
    As on egg I'd feast.

And contemplating,
    It occurs to me -
If all lived that well,
    How great it would be.

But a lot do sleep
    Outdoors many nights -
On sheets of cardboard,
    Without basic rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

Absolutely not. How dare you call my life's work in process a parody???

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

You, sir, are a mockery of a mockery of a travesty! ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM

Choice words at 20 paces, sir!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM

The remarkable thing about Worsley's canals is the fifty miles underground: that seems to have escaped your writing

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 11:35 PM

Underground canals, sir? I think you must mean the Worsley sewer system.

Worsley is a charming and picturesque spot, no doubt about it, but it can't match Crawley for sheer charm. Crawley, the jewel of Kent! Oh how I long for the halcyon days I spent there courting the fair Rachel Wallow.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM

"The remarkable thing about Worsley's canals is the fifty miles underground: that seems to have escaped your writing" (Stu)...
"Where earliest of coal-canals meet,
    And have their waters ochred
By the seepage of old-deep-mine earth;" (me, above).

Also, an update on the above "Up Uluru?" poem:
On last night's "By any Means" (BCC) I noticed that tourists can still climb it - the team were only prevented by it being a windy day.
And by the way, 20 years ago, I also travelled mostly overland, and took a similar route to them - see poems 21 to 26, if you wish.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:20 AM

I think the Aboriginies dont like people walking on it, but realise they make more money if they let people clamber on the rock.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Eating, e.g., rice, sultanas
And something that rhymes with sultanas
Oh bugger, I suppose I'd better put bananas
e.g., even though they're foreign and I don't like them much
Anyway, of such
Is my sparse, poet's diet comprised,
e.g., if one wishes
To be a literary master
Ine must be a faster,
If all that is on offer, e.g.,
Is burgers, chicken, fishes
Or foreign muck like, e.g., curry,
No!
I choose instead to eat a stottie
Whilst stroking, e.g., the botty
of a bouncing, young, clogger
e.g, I'd love to snog her
but my lips
are wrapped round bread and chips
and soon will be chomping on
my plastic, e.g., English flute,
Which I'll record, mute,
For your enjoyment on my website.
Did I mention my website?
It is a great website.
Here's a link to my website.
Later you might
Like to have, e.g, a look.
Meanwhile, I'll be sitting by a brook
(Not Rupert, as I don't approve, e.g., of poofs)
But by a Good English stream,
Lost in my lovely English, e.g., Aryan dream.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:25 AM

Now that's poetry Ruth

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:29 AM

And while you're at Worsley
Turn around and look inversely
In the general direction of Wigan
And you'll see the motorway viaduct- a big 'un
Where the traffic thunders past without cease,
Then get some chips covered in grease
And a pint at the Bridgewater Arms
Like generations of hard working miners before
Who dug the encarboned coal in days of yore,
And loaded it onto boats called starvationeers
To be conveyed to Wigan Pier.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:09 AM

Lovely, Ruth, just lovely, e.g.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

You're an incredibly cruel person Ruth. Bless you.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

Am I? It wasn't meant cruelly. But if, as someone suggested earlier, satire is the best form of subversion...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

As the clock does tick
They take the mick
Of poetry
With verses Harmlessly
written, it seems,

But there are examples given
Of thinly veiled racism
He suggests Regulation
to protect the pure Nation
By whatever means?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

Walkabout
likes to Talkabout
things he knows
Fuckallabout.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM

800!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

In 88 (well 87 now) messages time, will all the text change colour depending on who is talking, and only appear at the bottom of the screen?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM

Used to live near them there places, Paul - so "Worsley Village" (above or here) is literally a walkabout-poem.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:35 PM

By Jove, we're getting down to some real poetry now. Jolly good!

I think it worthwhile to mention just in passing that I have seen no evidence of specism yet in any of WAV's postings or poetry. This is good. He gets the Chongo Chimp stamp of approval for avoiding specist remarks and behaviour.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Did you know that the clock that called the Bridgewater boat yard workers, at Worsley, back to work after lunch used to strike 13 insead of 1? To make sure the workers heard it! The boat yard is still there but mainly for pleasure craft and the clock has been rehoused in St Marks church.

The Gnome gnows trivia, I see
About history local, you'll agree
The canal there is yellow
Because some rude fellow
Couldn't wait whilst bursting for a pee

D.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM

#5 The Pecking Order

Bovines are nice,
Zebras are jollier,
But not so chimps,
Judging by their holler.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM

Thanks David - but I still say it's the "deep-mine earth", above.

And to Brother and LH, re: "specism"...

Poem 95 of 230: A GOOD LIFE

To fauna,
    Home-flora.
Sheep for wool -
    Fed till full.
Chooks for eggs -
    Free-range legs.
Milk from cows -
    Should well house:
Better grade
    Can be made.
Fish for game -
    Cut the pain.
Dogs for pets -
    No regrets.
And question
    Castration.

This does say
    Buddha's way,
And Blake's way:
    A good life -
For all life.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 07:01 AM

I have ants
In my pants.
But they'll stay;
It's nature's way.
Sheep can forage
Mongst my borage
Cause it grows
Between my toes
On English soil
Where we toil
Over pottage boil
And don't despoil
The natural scene
Little chooks
And and cows and sheep
Are all my friends
Must make amends
For nasty slaughter
It boils my water
Makes me cross
Such a loss!
Who is boss?
Who gives a toss?
Not the hoggett
In his stall;
You've took his balls.



(I wrote that while the kettle was boiling, Wavey - I dearly hope you haven't expended any more time and energy on your own efforts.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

He won't be very happy with me for sharing it, but His Brother's Brother spends no more than 5 minutes per verse.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

Running cat
chasing rat
Wearing hat
Catch the rat
Chewing fat
Fancy that

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 11:30 AM

And cos its nearly home time

Going home
In a bit
Time for rugby
To get fit

Stress relief
It is for me
Then lots of meat
for my tea

Cos meat is yummy
Especially steak
And maybe lamb
For tea I'll make

Sometimes Bacon
At breakfast time
You eat yours
And I'll eat mine

Sausages
They are the best
though one thing
I must confess

British ones
Are the main type
of sausages
That I do like

So segregate
these foreign nationals
for providing
poor sausage rationals!

That last bit
is really poor
But its home time
so there'll be no more

-...-...-...-...-...-...-

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 12:02 PM

#6 The Merry Muse

I turn on the TV,
   There is time until the pottage boils,
To see what I can see,
    More namby-pamby multi-wulti-culturalism,
A shame that gone are the ways of the toil of the soil,
   No chords or fourty-two and-a-half parts, singing while they work,
Immigrants make us forget,
Our own good culture loyal.

Encyclopedias say this should not be,
The world wishes culture English for to see,
Our roast is our boast, not foreign-curree,
   Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, dear me.

I turn to sing-a-ling, a merry old tune,
Which globalism has gone and sold away,
No accompaniment, ancient as woad lovely,
FROM NOW ON, that motto like gold is,
Gone be foreign influences as fol-de-ree.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

...I, myself, have retired from versification, but nice to see you all in the WAV rhythm - whilst watching the pot boil, watering the English ivy, donning your tennis shoes or clogs, or merely a-waiting the next Weekly Walkabout.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

at least you acknowledge that with this collection of deliberately piss-poor doggerel we're "in your rhythm", Waveydavey...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

I'm delighted to see the burst of poetic creativity on this thread. We are finally realizing the full potential of the concept in hand here... ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

I'd rather wait for a fistula or gonorrhoea.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,JosephP at home
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

Ruth my work is not deliberately piss-poor, I think Mudcat actually displays all of my poetic outpourings writtten within the last 5 years or so.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,JosephP at home
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 03:59 PM

And in honour of that I have come over all poetic again -

TUESDAY NIGHT IN BEVERLEY

Back from rugby
Muddy and wet
Now listening to
An Eliza set

Great Grey Back
The name of the song
It is about
1 min 12 long

Couldnt find
any suitable meat
for my tea
so potatoes I'll eat

Baked for flavour
and crispy skin
Then cut open
And butter put in

One for my girlfriend
If she's in luck
By that I mean potato
And not a .... rubber duck

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

easy, cowboy - you don't want to be just publishing these pearls of your "life's work" on Mudcat without serious consideration regarding effective distribution and appropriate marketing...

There are loads of libraries that might be interested in chucking it away, for a start...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:44 AM

WAV's retired from verse,
thank God; it's quite grim.
But I honestly think
verse retired from him.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:43 AM

To Qoute from WAV...

"or merely a-waiting the next Weekly Walkabout."

Oh Dear God, Spare us. We've had enough.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:58 AM

Well Ruth, with your contacts I thought I could print everyone a copy, and make you give it to them. For you I wrote this:

WHITSUN 08

Rain rain rain rain rain rain rain
then it gets worse and rains again
We dance a set, get soaking wet
then go out and do the same (again)

No fiddles in sight cos its too damp
God bless those that chose to camp
The crowds are small, they aint no fool
Now its cold and Ive got cramp

After lunch it did get drier
Each dance we jumped a little higher
Back came the crowd to shout aloud
as Potter they do admire!

Out came the fiddle later in the day
to play a bit of Shepherds Hey
Not played well but what the hell
So we danced to Stop the Cavalry!

Then in the pub that evening
Our squire Francis songs did sing
Out came my box (melodeon that is) and eliza did fox
by playing melodies quite baffling!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:06 AM

I might make this poetry an hourly affair, helps me through the day. Rhyming therapy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:21 AM

You forgot to mention Reg and Tony's double jig. That was quite something - though I'm not sure what.


God, it pissed down.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:28 AM

Good old Reg, to most people a well respected researcher in folk music, to us, the legend who turns up and gets pissed every year!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:00 AM

Maybe we're being a little harsh on WAV's versification. As was once said of Baldrick's poetry, "It started badly, it tailed off a little in the middle and the less said about the end the better, but apart from that it was excellent."
Here's the complete works as an inspiration:

The German Guns
Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
Boom, Boom, Boom,
Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
Boom, Boom, Boom

Untitled Second Poem
Hear the words I sing,
War's a horrid thing,
So I sing sing sing...ding-a-ling-a-ling.

I reckon Wor Davey could learn a lot from those.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:24 AM

The poems are especially good when read by Baldrick, he has a real, how do you put it in French 'I dont know'? Genius.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:31 AM

And not to hijack the thread anymore, but this is a gem I just have to publish, and the respnse I got is pure magic.

Oh, Sara Lee For you I write this poetry
I love your cakes and buns so sticky
I eat so many I oft feel sicky
I trust your cooking to the highest degree
My serene Goddess, Sara Lee
I notice other brands of yours
To save our hands from many chores
Like the fantastically smooth Senseo coffee
Thought up by the faultless Sara Lee
I really savour your cheesecake bites
I tend to consume them every night
Food of the greatest quality
My divine provider, Sara Lee
Cakes and pies and things so lovely
Prepared so well by you, my Sara Lee

(and their reply)

Dear Joe, Thank you for getting in touch,
We're so glad to hear you like our products so much,
From Coffee to Pastries and shower gels too
Sara Lee's mission is "To Simply Delight You....."
Not just for tomorrow, last week or today
Every day's what we aim for and we mean what we say.
So, we hope that with each Sara Lee product you buy
You'll continue to love everything that you try!

Best regards

Lois Sharma
Consumer Relations Co-ordinator
Sara Lee UK

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:39 AM

Wavy has a tiny English dick
And no English lass will give it a lick
"Poor me!" he wails, "It makes me sick,"
"To know I'm just an English prick."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:42 AM

"WAV's retired from verse,
thank God; it's quite grim.
But I honestly think
verse retired from him." (Stigweard)...many a true word said in jest - apart from the Weeklies and the postings of WAVoholics herein (and CATNIPoholics), there is more-and-more free "verse" out there these days...

Poem 148 of 230: AUDIENCE LOST

I returned, again,
    To what they pen -
The free-verse poets:
    Deep prose in sets...
I could read, again,
    Of Mice and Men.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM

So you were the sole bastion of structured verse poetry? Without you poetry will fall into crazy free verse styles?

What about my poems? I like to think they rhyme, from time to time.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:22 AM

With characteristic hubris
WAV calls us his WAVoholics,
when all we're trying to point out
his poetry is bollix*




*I make no claims to having any poetic ability myself.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:28 AM

Steinbeck's estate will be suing you for even mentioning his work in one of your horrendous pieces of tripe. Now go ask mummy to give you that tongue-in-bung thing you like so much as soon as she's done blowing the yak. Be nice now.....Your mummy works very hard.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:28 PM

Joe, please tell me that was some sort of competition, and not simply composed in a Nigella-like food rapture...

Love the response!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM

Of Mice and Men
The truth just sqeaks
Its mortal grasp in peril
As poets write
All through the night
And mourn the Edmund Fitzgerald
While down the hall the bugler drools
His winding tale untold
And there are no tales inside the Gates of Eden

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:08 PM

But there are tails...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Joseph P
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 03:32 PM

I'm afraid my poem was the result of hours of boredom at work. I was delighted at the response, it was most serendipitous!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

Bet it gets PUBLISHED in their house magaZine...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

The loath but lithesome
Lounger stands
His dagger in his hand
Accosting Vestal Virgins
Whom his words cannot command
His lonely voice it echoes
Like a harpstring in the rain
And there are no words inside the Gates of Eden

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:16 AM

"Bet it gets PUBLISHED in their house magaZine..."(Stu)..and/or why not look out for the like of a poetry slam or even a "Bare Knuckle Poetry Slam", like the one I'm participating in tonight - see myspace, if you like.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:17 PM

in case you didn't know folks

"Slamming is funky
Slamming is fun
Slamming is for everyone
Slam poetry combines writing with drama, presentation and public speaking, to make poetry dynamic, accessible and fun.
The skills developed by writing and performing poetry are valuable communication techniques, essential in all areas of life - building confidence and self esteem."

Says it all


Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM

Damn! If I was Wavylimpet, I'd stay away for sure. He recites his crap and someone whacks him up side the head with 2x4.....



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:56 PM

Down nameless streets
The midnight crew
Loads rifles in the rain
Beside some faded ingenue
Now pale, who still remains
To testify with a solemn sigh
"I'd be glad to share your pain"
You'll find no pain inside the Gates of Eden.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:27 PM

Okay, it's a slow day here at the skunk works, so why don't I give it a shot?

It's better to belch
And bear the shame
Than not to belch
And bear the pain!

Or how about

WAV had the ring,
He had the flat,
But she read his poems,
And that was that!

Don Firth (bowing like Henry Gibson on "Laugh In").

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:44 PM

Wav's poems are crap
His thoughts are vile
The scansion is pathetic
Critique upon them
Is best done
When on a diuretic
When read aloud, one's head is bowed
His poems a strong emetic
They're just more shit
Behind the Gates of Eden


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:07 AM

Not bad, Spaw. A little crass and vulgar perhaps...but still not bad. ;-)

I think the Gates of Eden makes a marvelous framework for creating random new verses, don't you? I pity people who don't know that song, I really do. They're missing out badly.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM

A "bare knuckle poetry slam". Wow, that sounds so, like, edgy! Sure knocks the spots of extreme ironing and pro-celebrity macrame.
It needs the skills of a John Cooper-Clarke to really rip the pretentious tits off such an absurd concept.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:55 AM

From the bard of Salford I offer some real English poetry:

Like a Night Club in the morning, you're the bitter end.
Like a recently disinfected shit-house, you're clean round the bend.
You give me the horrors
too bad to be true
All of my tomorrow's
are lousy coz of you.
You put the Shat in Shatter
Put the Pain in Spain
Your germs are splattered about
Your face is just a stain

You're certainly no raver, commonly known as a drag.
Do us all a favour, here... wear this polythene bag.

You're like a dose of scabies,
I've got you under my skin.
You make life a fairy tale... Grimm!

People mention murder, the moment you arrive.
I'd consider killing you if I thought you were alive.
You've got this slippery quality,
it makes me think of phlegm,
and a dual personality
I hate both of them.

Your bad breath, vamps disease, destruction, and decay.
Please, please, please, please, take yourself away.
Like a death a birthday party,
you ruin all the fun.
Like a sucked and spat our smartie,
you're no use to anyone.
Like the shadow of the guillotine
on a dead consumptive's face.
Speaking as an outsider,
what do you think of the human race

You went to a progressive psychiatrist.
He recommended suicide...
before scratching your bad name off his list,
and pointing the way outside.

You hear laughter breaking through, it makes you want to fart.
You're heading for a breakdown,
better pull yourself apart.

Your dirty name gets passed about when something goes amiss.
Your attitudes are platitudes,
just make me wanna piss.

What kind of creature bore you
Was is some kind of bat
They can't find a good word for you,
but I can...
TWAT.

Or there's:
make a date with the brassy brides of britain
the altogether ruder readers' wives
who put down their needles and their knitting
at the doorway to our dismal daily lives
the fablon top scenarios of passion
nipples peep through holes in leatherette
they seem to be saying in their fashion
'I'm freezing charlie - haven't ya finished yet?'

cold flesh the colour of potatoes
in an instamatic living room of sin
all the required apparatus
too bad they couldn't fit her head in

in latex pyjamas with bananas going ape
their identities are cunningly disguised
by a six-inch strip of insulation tape
strategically stuck across their eyes

wives from inverness to inner london
prettiness and pimples co-exist
pictorially wife-swapping with someone
who's happily married to his wrist

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM

Or there's this, to puncture WAV's love for his favourite newspaper:

I've seen the poison letters of the horrible hacks
about the yellow peril and the reds and the blacks
and the tuc and its treacherous acts
kremlin money – all right jack
I've seen how democracy is under duress
but I've never seen a nipple in the Daily Express

I've seen the suede jack boot the verbal cosh
whitehouse whitelaw whitewash
blood uptown where the vandals rule
classroom mafia scandal school
they accuse – I confess
I've never seen a nipple in the Daily Express

Angry colums scream in pain
love in vain domestic strain
divorce disease it eats away
the family structure day by day
in the grim pursuit of happiness
I've never seen a nipple in the Daily Express

You want a dissection of Englishness, WAV? You're not fit to hold a candle to JCC.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM

#6 Sweet Dreams

Last night I had the strangest dream, I do not lie, e.g.,
Whilst my English helix a-watering,
All immigrants took up the battle-cry-
FROM NOW ON, e.g., and moved back home,
To practise their Own Good Culture
And leave my Morris to such as I.

I do not dance it, myself,
But others should,
For when lost is culture good,
Society surely suffereth.

And, further, in my dream,
My very own Good English Dream,
Mr. Carthy, Martin, sending his guitar to Spain,
An English Cittern did accquire,
Musicians, followed suit, never did they tire,
To Greece bouzoukis went, a significant cultural gain,
And little organs sounded on England's Fair and Pleasent Green,
Again.

"Our roast is our boast; not foreign curree,"
Said our Own Good English delegate, echoing me.
Against capitalist migration, the UN did decree,
Which prospect filled my own good self with glee.

'Multiculturalism is fallen, is fallen, is fallen,'
The bells (all closely associated with England) did toll,
'Multiculturalism is fallen, to rise no more.'
Women gave up tennis, put the kettle on,
For tea, naturally,
And none cared for to sing in harmonee.

I woke up,
Much the sadder,
   On pottage did sup,
Then my heart turned gladder,
                  For I now knew,
                   That the way forward,
                              For humanity,
                                 Nothing could stop.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:24 AM

"Slamming is funky
Slamming is fun
Slamming is for everyone
Slam poetry combines writing with drama, presentation and public speaking, to make poetry dynamic, accessible and fun." (Stu)
'A "bare knuckle poetry slam". Wow, that sounds so, like, edgy! Sure knocks the spots of extreme ironing and pro-celebrity macrame.
It needs the skills of a John Cooper-Clarke to really rip the pretentious tits off such an absurd concept.' (Gervase)...yes - I think he was mentioned and the winner - with material something like your's - was passionate, animated, modern-Americanish, and swore like a bullocky, as Stu's quote (from someone?) suggests.
And the night was minus any such time-honoured toast as - "the roast is our boast" (Brother)!...but, having been knocked-out, 7 votes to 3, by quite an attractive Rasta and her poem of lllllllove, will WAV turn up to suchlike again, and give readings of poems such as "A Bayswater Bedsit" (43) and "Global Regulationism" (105), yes...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM

Granma, even in your - ahem - **th year you're still the gal for me! Can I have some of that lovely punctuation to play with too?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM

*sings in her sweetest church voice* "Granma, we love you, granma, we do..."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:26 AM

I didnt understand the Bullocky reference previously, I thought it was a typing error. I had never heard of a 'Bullocky'.

So, in true WAV style, a quick wiki search gives all the answers: 'A Bullocky is an Australian English term ....' need I say more?


'Oy talk in accents so bizaw
cos oy hiv trivelled viry faw
Aus culture is a pawt of me
Sadly thit oy do not see'

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM

Let me see if I have this right. David lost to a chick in dreadlocks?

Maybe that explains quite a bit. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

Deliberate satire? IB, that is false and defamatory! All satire is purely unintentional and no satirists were harmed in writing my verses, an EXCELLENT way forward for all humanity.

#7 Undead Poets in Society

As I reflect on Ezra Pound,
My astonishemnt knows no bound,
His works they do astound,
Why could no rhyming verse be found?

He's not a poet, he did not know it,
I do not like it, not one bit,
They are like a pit, bottomless to whit,
Bees they should flit, grannies must knit.

A parody of Milton's titles burns in my breast,
As for the rest, I should give the poem a rest.....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM

Whilst not checking my posts for punctuation, etc., quite as carefully as my websites e.g., Gran. et al., I stand by my last post, and would only add an encouragement for other English tradies to participate in such poetry slams and, by reciting your verses in our traditional manner, do your bit to get our nation back on track.

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 138 of 230: AN OPIUM

National Lottery passes -
    Slight chances to be richer,
    With lots more than thy neighbour,
    Gained without any labour -
    Keep the system in favour:
An opium of the masses.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM

The Granma was the name of the boat that took Fidel Castro and a little band of revolutionary fighters from Mexico to Cuba and started off the final and ultimately successful phase of the Cuban Revolution. Do not take the name in vain, please. Viva Fidel! Viva Granma!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

When you say our nation WAV, are you talking about the nation that welcomed your family and nurtured you, or my nation as it exists in your (warped) imagination?

Stu

PS I won a guitar in a raffle

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM

Yes LH - and although I've never been to Cuba, I believe it's also the name of an important newspaper there.
Stu - "our nation" varies depending on which sporting event is on...

"...A similar mess over nationality occurs in the sporting world where English children, for example, can hope to play (perhaps managed by a citizen of a nation they may compete against) football for England, rugby-league for England/Great Britain, rugby-union for England/British Isles, athletics for England/U.K., golf for England/Europe, cricket for a combined England and Wales, or tennis for Great Britain - but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships…Anyone for friendly-rival republics?!" (here ).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:40 PM

So you root for the Aussies in the cricket season?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

How on earth did you, Stu, arrive at that? But while we are at it, don't you think the Welsh are good enough at cricket now to carry their own bat as a test nation?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:34 PM

Just trying the political test to find out where your affiliations lie.

For myself I live and work in England (I was born here before WW2) I am British and English. I am proud to share aspects of my cultural heritage with many tribes and races/nationalities.

I am a musician; I play many forms of music. I teach music. Music is not how you imagine.

I write prose, poetry, fact, technical subjects, and manuals on technical subjects. Writing is not how you imagine

England in the 1950s was not how you imagine.

The Welsh are a proud people and I won't dignify your specious dialogue with any comment other than that

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

Great sex with a woman is not what you imagine either Wav. Your mother doesn't count.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM

"The Welsh are a proud people" (Stu)...and God's speed to Plaid Cymru; and God's wrath to crude Catspaw.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM

Why do you think that your posts are so roundly condemned by members of this forum? Is it perhaps that your beliefs and postings are unacceptable to people of good will and education?

Catspaw has lost patience with your outpourings - I wonder why.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

To help with punctuation


Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM

WAV has not lost patience with Catspaw's outpourings either. I wonder why? ;-)

Nor has he lost patience with the fact that a number of people make it their daily ritual to congregate on this thread and personally attack him and call him names, even though it takes up some of their valuable time and it achieves nothing. Again, I wonder why?

He must be incredibly patient! ;-) Or...perhaps he is a masochist and enjoys the abuse? Or...making he's just taking the piss (as the Brits say) and is simply delighted when you all show up each day to pay attention, react to him, and hurl abuse? Or....maybe he is a sort of blithely innocent soul like the late William McGonagall, who toils on in unquestioning certainty that his creative efforts are not just good of their type...but absolutely classic, deserving of presentation to the Queen of England. If so, he will calmly persist in his efforts, and nothing anyone says here will suffice to persuade him to cease and desist. Nor should he. He has a right, like anyone, to express himself.

Anyway, my main point is that he is no less obsessive or silly than the rest of you. He's just on the other side of the battle line, that's all.

Me? I enjoy dropping in now and again to witness all this carnage and sound and fury signifying nothing. It's amusing. It's my daily chuckle. I hope WAV is enjoying it all too, because I don't like to see human beings in pain.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM

What Little Hawk said. The baying vigilante mob is a horror even for a good cause...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

It's a pretty significant battle line - racist bigot on one side, the civilised world on the other...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

If I thought it would ever drop off the bottom, I'd stop posting. As it is I find myself unable to allow his posts to go unchallenged. I believe others are the same

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:10 PM

Little Hawk, you keep trying to take a position of aloof superior and speak as if you regard both those who express negative ideas and those who take a stand against them as if they were merely semi-interesting specimens in a Petri dish.

Remember what Dante said about the place in Hell reserved for those who maintain a "colorless neutrality" when confronted with moral questions?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:19 PM

As a matter of fact, I believe we discussed this once before, above. What I said above, I say again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:13 PM

Wavy's parentage is always a source of mystery and conjecture and I was pretty sure his Mum had carnal knowledge of a Yak. Rrecently I learned she also went to San Francisco after hearing "Dock on the Bay" by Otis Redding. Seems she heard it as "cock" and was really excited about the trip.

Arriving late one afternoon she found no line of cocks as she had expected but bending over to look hopefully under the dock, her ass was penetrated by an out of control pelican trying to land. Both went into the bay and while the pelican floundered about trying to survive, Wavy's Mum was royally fucked by a rogue harbor seal with a bad case of seal syphillis. This might explain why Wavy's such a dumbass.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:06 AM

"It's a pretty significant battle line - racist bigot on one side, the civilised world on the other..." (Gervase)...that's false and defamatory - I love the world being multicultural, and have only questioned the act of immigration/emigration itself.
And I see crude Catspaw hasn't yet received God's wrath nor Mudcat's...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

Naw...Don...you miss my point. My position on these things is not what you imagine at all. Too bad we couldn't talk about it down at the coffee shop sometime, though.

Spaw has a special exemption here, WAV, due to past history. It's like Bob Dylan has always had a recording exemption, for example...he can put a way out of tune electric guitar on one track (Queen Jane Approximately) or leave obvious mistakes in the middle of various recorded songs on his albums and he gets away with it only because he's Bob Dylan. Some people even LIKE hearing his mistakes because he's Bob Dylan.

Well, Spaw's position at Mudcat Cafe is sorta like that too. ;-) You would have had to be here a long time to understand why that is.

Then too, it's vital to know when people are being serious and when they're not. I enjoy this thread primarily for the light amusement, as I said. Could be that's what Spaw is doing too.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM

Wav, if you expect the Almighty to unleash a thunderbolt and obliterate Spaw, then you are probably in for a long wait with a disapointment at the end.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

The almighty has already done his worst with Spaw. The man has to live with his own farts, for Pete's sake.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:25 PM

The fog creeps in on little cat's feet...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

...maybe Wiki's "England's National Musical Instrument" (thread atop) on Catspaw's collar would do the job, rather!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM

....................***sigh***..........so sadly true Gervase, so sadly true. But I have glorified my flatulence and now revel in its pungent wall of malodorus gases.

This is why I am so endeared of Wavydessicatednutsack. He has taken his ignorance and stupidity and glorified in much the same way. However his pungent wall of wretched smells is caused by his disreputable beliefs and his stubborn refusal to accept reality and truth.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:33 PM

that's false and defamatory - I love the world being multicultural, and have only questioned the act of immigration/emigration itself.

Wavy - you can can this until you're blue in the face, but the fact is you are a proven racist with a racist ideology who publishes racist propaganda. You only love the world being multi-cultural to justify your vision of a mono-cultural ethnically cleansed England. If you weren't racist, believe you me you'd see things very differently to the way you do - and you wouldn't come in for the flak that typifies the overwhelming contributions to your threads.

Not only have you questioned the act of immigration, you have done so on entirely false and specious grounds such as England was a more English place 50 years ago and English culture is taking a hammering etc. etc. When asked how English culture is taking a hammering, you evade the question; likewise when asked how society is suffering as a result. Not a single one of the reasons you have given for your opposition to immigration is anything but racist, even your much professed love of a multi-cultural WORLD.

England is a multi-ethnic country with a national population average of 13% made up of ethnic minorities. This is the reality of English cultural and ethnic diversity. If you wish to live happily in England, then you accept England as it is, not as you think it was 50 years ago. Join in the fun, Wavy - or else please go home to Australia and leave us in peace.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

False and defamatory from someone with a short memory to boot - we went through cases of loss of culture/society suffering ad infinitum - who changes his stance (toward issues such as capitalism and TV) weekly, if not daily.
And then comes up with this: "please go home to Australia"!...okay, there was a proviso but no wonder you failed at formal studies IB - you just cannot analyse things clearly...much enthusiasm but very little training, it seems.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM

I'm afraid that David is nostalgic for a world that never was. There are a fair number of people such as this. It's the "good old days" or the "Golden Age" syndrome. Were one of these custodians of illusion to be time-machined back to the era they idealize, their disillusionment at what they really find there would quite probably be devastating.

Perhaps it's their general inability to cope, and they fasten onto a former time in which they feel they would fit.

Sad, but what can one do?

Unfortunately, though, David's ideas about his "pure English culture" seems to be based on his erroneous belief that there actually existed a time before immigration, and it's this sudden influx of immigrants that he blames for both "corrupting" English culture—and for taking jobs ("capitalistic immigration") away from English citizens (i.e., him).

I've seen this kind of thing before. In the United States, when affirmative action laws came into existence, there were people who blamed the laws for their own inability to find work, claiming that people from minority groups keep getting chosen over them. There were many who could manage to get down to the unemployment office to pick up their weekly check, but wouldn't stir off the sofa for the rest of the week and go looking for work. "Why bother?" they would rationalize, "They'll only give the job to a black or a Hispanic or a woman. . . ."   Blaming affirmative action for their not having gainful employment and thus having to live off their unemployment checks was a very convenient excuse for them to sit at home and watch soaps or spend their days hanging out at the local coffee shop or bar.

Amazing how quickly they got motivated—and managed to get a job despite affirmative action—when their unemployment insurance ran out.

Now, on another subject:

Spaw is one of nature's noblemen.

When I first posted on Mudcat on September 2, 1999, catspaw49 was one of the first people to warmly welcome me to this forum.   I find that he is generally friendly, informed, and both incisive and humorous in his comments. This is when the discussion is at least marginally rational.

It is when someone from the nincompoop brigade climbs aboard and begins trying to peddle pure blather, baloney, claptrap, drivel, twaddle, and gobbledygook that he often darts into the nearest phone booth to emerge a few seconds later wearing his cap-and-bells. On these occasions, he tends to pour forth such a burst of outrageously creative imagery that the heavens echo and ring with the laughter of the gods! One looks forward to these occasions!!

Catspaw49 is possessed of Super Powers!

Let 'er rip, Spaw!

In awe and admiration,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 03:25 PM

False and defamatory!"
Tautologous and wrong, I'm afraid me old ocker. And we won't even start on the pleonasm.
I suggest you take a look at what defamation actually is. It's something false uttered or published to a third party which will tend to cause you loss in your trade or profession or cause a reasonable person to think worse of you.
As for 'false' - justification is a defence for defamation, matey. Look at the David Irvine case.
And as for the opinion of the man on the Clapham omnibus - you're doing a grand job at defaming yourself. With every successive post you come across as a blinkered, witless, naive and foolish individual prone to spouting the sort of drivel that the BNP and its ilk peddles softly to would-be sympathisers.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 03:28 PM

okay, there was a proviso but no wonder you failed at formal studies IB - you just cannot analyse things clearly...much enthusiasm but very little training, it seems.

That is petty and vicious, not to mention rich! You, Wav, are the one who has failed, despite your BA. The reason you didn't continue is quite obvious. You are incapable of looking into an issue in any depth, and your abilities and desire to conduct research are wanting.
Your methodology is sad and pathetic, you dictate a position and pick and choose your sources to match it, ignoring anything inconvenient. You think te best sources are horribly generalised and bland encyclopedia entries, as well as the unreliable wikipedia. No, it is definitely you who has failed at formal studies.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM

"you just cannot analyse things clearly...much enthusiasm but very little training, it seems"
Such a shame we can't all see things with the clarity that a BA in Humanities and four technical certificates gives one.
As for 'humanities', isn't that a bit vague and all encompassing? It's a bit like a BSc in Science - a quick spin around but no depth. At least Nick Griffin studied history and law - although he did only manage a Desmond.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM

False and defamatory from someone with a short memory to boot - we went through cases of loss of culture/society suffering ad infinitum - who changes his stance (toward issues such as capitalism and TV) weekly, if not daily.

Instances & examples, Wavy - remember, you are the one under scrutiny here - not because of what you believe in, but because of what you publish and promote. I do not publish my opinions, much less insist anything I believe is The Best Way Forward for Humanity. In this respect my approach to my life, and my craft, is entirely consistent, albeit fluid, unlike the leaden lifeless dogmatic mess you've mired yourself in.

And then comes up with this: "please go home to Australia"!...okay, there was a proviso but no wonder you failed at formal studies IB - you just cannot analyse things clearly...much enthusiasm but very little training, it seems.

Now this is false and defamatory, Wavy; it is also a deeply personal attack. As already discussed, I did not fail in my studies, rather I became ill with ME which forced my withdrawal from Durham University. This I originally mentioned in good faith, you have used it as ammunition against me ever since. What does that tell us about you? You might imagine how I feel about this; you also might imagine how it's going to be when our paths next cross in person.

Remember - you publish and promote your racist ideology; you also frequent this forum where you relentlessly (and mercilessly) promote your Life's Work. Whilst this gives me the right of criticism, it does not give you the right of personal attack.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

"I've seen this kind of thing before. In the United States, when affirmative action laws came into existence, there were people who blamed the laws for their own inability to find work, claiming that people from minority groups keep getting chosen over them. There were many who could manage to get down to the unemployment office to pick up their weekly check, but wouldn't stir off the sofa for the rest of the week and go looking for work. "Why bother?" they would rationalize, "They'll only give the job to a black or a Hispanic or a woman. . . ."   Blaming affirmative action for their not having gainful employment and thus having to live off their unemployment checks was a very convenient excuse for them to sit at home and watch soaps or spend their days hanging out at the local coffee shop or bar." (naive Don)...I just heard an estimate that the number of UE here will soon double due to recession - and we know that New Labour have recently allowed record amounts of economic/capitalist immigration (only the last year or two have they strengthened regulations); and if you insist on being personal as well, there were, despite the conditions, a couple of Production Manager posts which I have just APPLIED for - with my 4 tech. certificates and degrre in humanities. You've also criticised my myspace attempts at music, before being politely asked if there's anything of yours we can check on the web..?.."blather, baloney, claptrap, drivel, twaddle, and gobbledygook"..?
Gervase - I'm an English NOT a British nationalist, who also supports Plaid Cymru and the Scottish Nationalists.
IB - " I do not publish my opinions"...that's an example of what I just said of you - you who repeatedly calls me a racist because I repeatedly question immigration/emigration; you don't analyse things clearly - another example, when I previously said New Labour have just recently strengthened immigration regulations with English tests, etc., you decided they are "all mother-fuckers"!
And I only ever question your analytical abilities when you call me a racist - when I have only questioned THE ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF, not any particular race or culture. WITH SOME QUALIFAICATION, you could call me an anti-immigrationist but racist IS false and defamatory - DON'T publish it anymore.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM

The BNP is all about England for the English - but if you want to distance yourself from them by actually pointing out that you are even MORE blinkered and narrow-minded than they, go for your life. At least we're finally getting somewhere.

"Perhaps it's their general inability to cope, and they fasten onto a former time in which they feel they would fit."

Spot on, Don. Maybe Wavey should create a 1930s re-enactment society - he could sit in a cheerless brown room in front of a mean little coal fire, eating bread and cheese off a newspaper tablecloth, and chunter away to other similarly misanthropic and socially backward specimens - happily there was no internet in the 50s, so presumably we'd never have to hear from any of them again. Until, of course, they form some sort of Oswald Mosely tribute band.

"I just heard an estimate that the number of UE here will soon double due to recession"

Yes, but you've been sitting there on your arse during the boom years, Wavey, taking the English taxpayer's shilling because you couldn't get a job in your chosen profession - unlike all the immigrants (including me) who have done whatever work we could find, if need be, to keep ourselves and our families, and who have never claimed a penny in benefits.

As someone who has taught at undergraduate level, I'd like to be absolutely honest about what a BA proves: bugger all. I taught students whose language and reasoning skills were as piss-poor as yours, Wavey, and unfortunately, several of them walked out with a decent degree. Now, I can't speak for the Australian education system, but I'm not aware of it as a shining pinnacle of world academic excellence. So assuming the standards to be similar to those in the UK, there will be many different types of universities and institutions of higher education. Some of these are desperate for bums on seats (usually the ones whose academic credentials are a bit rubbish, and where pretty much anyone can get in because the twin mantras of Recruitment and Retention hold sway. They will pass anyone. Indeed, I found myself not allowed to fail students, because if we did, we wouldn't meet our targets.

So you see, Wavey, a bachelor's degree is just a bit of paper, and for some years now they've been handed round like sweets. It's what you do with the bit of paper that matters, whether it's using it as a stepping stone into further study or getting out and driving a forklift truck.

IB has proved over and over again that his capacity for critical analysis is first rate. He also has an intellectual curiosity which leads him to seek out specialist study, not wikipedia articles and one-volume encyclopediae. He is also very articulate and expresses himself with clarity and focus, and does not simply repeat the same lines of dogma until everyone wants to throttle him.

Based on your proven intellectual capacity, I wouldn't let you onto a hairdressing course, let alone into a university. Just because an admissions officer with some hardcore recruitment targets once took pity on you, please don't assume that this makes you the intellectual superior of anyone here, especially IB.


"DON'T publish it anymore"

If you can publish whatever old shite you like and pimp it round the internet, who are you to tell dictate what others can "publish", particularly when it's clearly based on conclusions anyone could draw from your writings?

England was more English 50 years ago...immigrants are coming here and taking jobs from native-born English people...English culture is taking a hammering...different cultures cannot live under one state law...

You are a racist, David. A nasty, narrow-minded, sad little racist. And I'll shout it from the flipping rooftops, as long as you continue to try and harness your poisonous ideology to the folk culture I love.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM

Wavy - maybe it's an example of my lack of analytical skills but for the life of me I can't make any sense of what you're saying here at all. Could you have another go? Or maybe someone else would be good enough to lend me a hand...

Otherwise, a simply apology would have been enough, but obviously your overweening arrogance doesn't extent so far as contrition.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:54 AM

Wav, analytical abilities have nothing to do with formal studies, if proof of that were needed, one needs look no further than YOU.

My challenge still stands, how many of the jobs you were passed over for were given to immigrants?

"Until, of course, they form some sort of Oswald Mosely tribute band."

Tastefully accompanying themselves on English flute and English cittern, top-line melody only of course.

"I remember the days when we went walk-aboutsy,
to Cable Street, to fight Anarchy,
When England was English, e.g.,
When people grew ivy and had roast for tea,
When Our Own Good Culture was unsoiled by singing in harmony!"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM

WAV, this was one of your responses to Don's excellent post.

" Blaming affirmative action for their not having gainful employment and thus having to live off their unemployment checks was a very convenient excuse for them to sit at home and watch soaps or spend their days hanging out at the local coffee shop or bar." (naive Don)."

Why is that naive? That absolutely has happened. You who only visited America wouldn't have a clue about that anyway, so why don't you take Don's word for it. Most people want to work, and most people don't want handouts. Something Ruth said as well that I think is important. In a difficult time, you take ANY job you can lay your hands on, be it washing dishes or working for McDonalds. Its soul sucking, but its also money that you need. Or you work 2 crappy jobs, or even 3 jobs. My wife has done that, living in her own place, supporting herself, living off of ramen noodles and peanut butter, but she did it. Your ad infinitum excuses grow wearisome simply because you seem either incapable, or unwilling to do much other than blather on about top line cittern playing country dancing. In every thread you have begun, verifiable proof from multiple sources have proven you wrong in your thinking. Ruth is correct as well when she says that piece of paper you treasure actually means much. Sure, it means you had an area of focus that you took the time to complete, but every thing else after that point comes from you-you have to find and get yourself a job. If you wanted a guaranteed job you should have skipped the courses and did something that, as here in the states, leads automatically to a job, like police or fire, or some medical jobs.

Your manifesto which you cling to as if it were a life preserver while adrift at sea is wearisome. You seem incapable of fully elaborating and elucidating your reasoning, which is why you resort to the same quotes, time after weary time.

What I really think WAV is that you should stop finding blame in life. Stop compaining about how what you think of as folk is not "proper" folk because of one thing or another. Stop blaming other people for your difficulties in getting a job. Stop blaming people for misunderstanding you, when you really don't do a good job of explaining yourself without resort to repeating yourself.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM

"The BNP is all about England for the English - but if you want to distance yourself from them by actually pointing out that you are even MORE blinkered and narrow-minded than they, go for your life. At least we're finally getting somewhere." (Ruth)...that after I just said I support Plaid Cymru and the Scottish Nationalists, as well as English NOT British nationalism - so who's "blinkered and narrow-minded"?
"Yes, but you've been sitting there on your arse during the boom years, Wavey, taking the English taxpayer's shilling because you couldn't get a job in your chosen profession" (Ruth Archer/Joan Crumb)...false and defamatory from someone who somehow has a job with the National Council, who, in my opinion, should be having words.
"IB has proved over and over again that his capacity for critical analysis is first rate. He also has an intellectual curiosity which leads him to seek out specialist study, not wikipedia" it was actually IB, Ruth, who, on the "England's National Musical Instrument" thread posted the Wiki. site that lists national instruments - including Englands.
"You are a racist, David. A nasty, narrow-minded, sad little racist" and "Just because an admissions officer with some hardcore recruitment targets once took pity on you," (Ruth Archer/Joan Crumb of the National Council - who surely SHOULD be having words.)

"Wavy - maybe it's an example of my lack of analytical skills but for the life of me I can't make any sense of what you're saying here at all. Could you have another go? Or maybe someone else would be good enough to lend me a hand...Otherwise, a simply apology would have been enough, but obviously your overweening arrogance doesn't extent so far as contrition." (IB)...some may not mind being called racist but I hate it, and "fight" back with words against it. On the other hand, when you suggested 2 months before was too early to post "Cob a Coaling" on myspace, I explained my reasoning and then suggested I'll probably leave it till one month before next year - in partial agreement/without any questioning of your analytical abilities. But what I will keep questioning is the act of immigration/emigration itself, from SEVERAL angles - as New Labour, e.g., must also have recently done/as is acceptable within a democracy.

"Wav, analytical abilities have nothing to do with formal studies, if proof of that were needed, one needs look no further than YOU." (Volgadon)...yes, there are of course different ways of learning: I, e.g., have taught myself informally to read and write/mimic music - just the top-line melody, mind.
"My challenge still stands, how many of the jobs you were passed over for were given to immigrants?" (Volgadon)...I'd like to ignore this, but your style involves reposting it ad infinitum so - no idea.

IE - you didn't repost the full quote I was responding to, see above. and we are obliged here to broaden our jobsearch - as I HAVE done (like Ruth, you are ASSUMING things). The responses are repetative because the questions are repetative.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:12 PM

The spelling mistakes are repetitive too...
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM

Probably just a true English spelling Tim.................

Wavybigotboy, why not go walkabout again and this time leave your pen at home. Also leave your current beliefs there as well. Open your eyes and ears and perhaps your mind will follow suit. Someday the truths that are out there and free to any and all who wish to see them might actually illuminate your long recovery and return to the world of caring and loving human(e) beings.

Or you could just get another blow-job from your Mum.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

'that after I just said I support Plaid Cymru and the Scottish Nationalists, as well as English NOT British nationalism - so who's "blinkered and narrow-minded"?'

You, Wavey. you're proud that you want even more tiny, insular little boxes than the BNP.

Sorry, who's meant to be having words with me? I am championing our Good English Culture (yep - it's mine too) and protecting it from racist Little Englanders. Surely whoever this mysterious "Council" I work for is should be giving me a big, grateful cuddle.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

I'm not going to assume that the last Guest was Ruth Archer/Joan Crump as in "The National Council at its meeting on 17 May 2008 agreed to nominate ... Joan Crump" from Google, but I stand by that said above (apart from the spelling of the surname); and note that this time you attacked not only me but also the "university...admissions officer with some hardcore recruitment targets once took pity on you,".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

"Naive?" I don't think so, David. You don't know diddly-squat about me or my life experiences. Believe me, "naive" I am not.

But judging from the vociferousness of your response, I seem to have hit a pretty sore spot. Quite revealing. Maybe you should examine that a bit.

Or maybe you shouldn't. You might not like what you find.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

I've read a lot of what you've had to say about yourself on Mudcat, Don, and that last post of yours was naive - when you examine it "a bit" note that you started with "I've seen this kind of thing before" - in reference to the situation here, where, as said, unemployment is expected to be double soon.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM

600 is big
600 is brawny
600 Spartans
went to their glory.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM

"You are a racist, David. A nasty, narrow-minded, sad little racist" and "Just because an admissions officer with some hardcore recruitment targets once took pity on you," (Ruth Archer/Joan Crumb of the National Council - who surely SHOULD be having words.)"

Why?

"My challenge still stands, how many of the jobs you were passed over for were given to immigrants?" (Volgadon)...I'd like to ignore this, but your style involves reposting it ad infinitum so - no idea.<\i>

One wonders why you'd have liked to ignore the question. Shall I take your answer as a no, can't think of a single instance? Puts the lie to your whinging rant. It also shifts the responsibility back to you.


"Wav, analytical abilities have nothing to do with formal studies, if proof of that were needed, one needs look no further than YOU." (Volgadon)...yes, there are of course different ways of learning: I, e.g., have taught myself informally to read and write/mimic music - just the top-line melody, mind.

That wasn't an endorsement, Wav. Of course, you are proud of being a poor musician who can barely play just the melody, so why should I be surprised.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ruth, who has lost her cookies.
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:29 PM

WAV, when i post here i post as an individual, not as a representative of any organisation. i have made this clear in the past, and it's partly why I choose to use a nom de guerre. What else I do in my life, and who for, has largely been mentioned by others - unlike you, I don't feel compelled to pimp my every achievement all over the internet, creating a website in homage to myself and constantly drawing attention to it. In fact I never even had a website till last week, and the one I have now is to promote my business, not my Way Forward For Humanity (nor my crap melodeon playing, come to it - unlike you, I won't inflict my piss-poor musicianship on the world until I'm a lot better). You'll notice, I've never mentioned the address on Mudcat.

My gripe with you is one of personal ideology, and it's rather pathetic of you to try and scare me off by "outing" me. In fact, it demonstrates the weakness of your arguments that these are the sorts of tactics you're prepared to resort to in order to try and shut me up, rather than working out reasoned responses to the many questions which have been put to you.

I stand by everything I've ever said about your xenophobia, racism, narcissism and self-aggrandisement. Anyone who wants proof need only read what you've written. Hoist by your own petard.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

Oh WAV, whether you were claiming the sentence that I copied of Don's as naive in your opinion, or the entire paragraph as being naive in your opinion, I will say, since YOU have no flipping idea about it, that you are the one being naive. What Don said was spot on. And we are obliged here to broaden our jobsearch too, or haven't you seen the unemployment numbers here in the US? I have a degree, but guess what, I'm not working in anything related to it. In fact, most Americans probably are not working on what they went to 4 year university for. And then there's all of those that never went to university but have great jobs because they are great workers.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

I suppose we should be thankful that most bigots are so bloody stupid. Wor Davey might actually be worrying if he wasn't so lamentably dim. Stubborn little bugger, though...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM

David, I said "I've seen this kind of thing before," referring to people who would rather not work if they can survive on the dole, but make excuses, not just to their friends and acquaintances, but to themselves, that it's not their own lack of ambition that keeps them from working, but "those other people," be they immigrants from Pakistan or Jamaica moving to England in hopes of finding work, or in the United States, Mexicans crossing the border to take domestic jobs or do farm work, or citizens who happen to be members of ethnic groups that have previously been discriminated against. Those "other people" make a good excuse for not bothering to try. As long as the unemployment insurance holds out.

And the people who drew unemployment checks while complaining about affirmative action, did have to try. It was a legal requirement that they had to apply for at least three jobs per week. There were people (the one's doing the complaining) who did the minimum required by law. Those who were serious about finding another job were out there putting in several applications every day. And, I might mention, even in the worst of times, they generally found work within a very few weeks.

It is not me who is naïve, David, it is you being disingenuous.

And—

"You've also criticised my myspace attempts at music, before being politely asked if there's anything of yours we can check on the web..?"

When I was critical of your attempts at music on your MySpace site, I was pointing out (and I don't think I would have much disagreement from others who have listened to it) that posting the things you have on MySpace is way premature if you want to be taken seriously as any kind of musician. Your work on the recorder shows that you are a relative beginner on the instrument, and when you sing, you do so without breath-support and a very precarious sense of pitch (which may very well be aggravated by the lack of breath-support).

What I was endeavoring to get across to you was that—again, if you wish to be taken seriously as a singer and musician—you should not be presenting yourself to the public before you are ready.

And for heaven's sake, don't take the position that since you're doing folk music, you don't have to be able to do it well. That's not only patronizing, it demonstrates contempt for both your audience and for the music itself.

What you should do is to sing for some long-time, experienced singer whom you can trust to tell you frankly what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong. You probably can't afford singing lessons in your present circumstances, but when you can, taking some singing lessons would be a very good idea—that is, if you want to pursue singing seriously. At least learn how to sing a whole phrase without sounding like you need to gasp for air, and to sing on the correct pitches without wandering off.

This is not a put-down, David, it's good advice. And I don't think there is anyone here, or any singer, professional or serious amateur, who would disagree with what I have said above.

And you asked if there is anything of mine on the web that you can check (the implication seeming to be that "If I'm so hot, why haven't I posted anything, like you have?" As I believe I told you before, I do not have anything on the web right now—not because I'm afraid to expose myself—but because I am currently working on a series of songs for a CD. Or several CDs. I've recently acquired some good quality recording equipment (a couple of good condenser microphones, an analog-to-digital interface for the desktop computer in my office, and miscellaneous other gear such as mic stands and pop-filters), and I am setting up a home studio. In the meantime, I'm selecting the songs—from the repertoire I have been singing in performance for years—that I want to record. In addition, I am learning a number of new songs. It will be some time before the project is complete. But I guarantee, it will be professional quality.

When it's well along, I will indeed post a number of songs on the web, for you to judge for yourself.

You may not like much of it, however, because in addition to a number of American songs, many of the songs will be from the British Isles, along with a couple from continental Europe.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

...some may not mind being called racist but I hate it, and "fight" back with words against it

If you weren't racist, you wouldn't have written, posted & published what you have. Yes, you fight back with words, Wavy, but only in the form of lies and tantrums of personal abuse, not with any attempt to explain how your ridiculous manifesto isn't racist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM

"Rollin', rollin', rollin'....RAWHIDE!!!!!!!!!!!"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:35 AM

Have to say Don that your last post was one of the most reasonable so far.
Good luck with the project, always interested in how others interpret songs.
Look forward to hearing the result.
I very much doubt that Dave will take your advice though!
Regards
Ralphie

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:12 AM

"My challenge still stands, how many of the jobs you were passed over for were given to immigrants?" (Volgadon)...I'd like to ignore this, but your style involves reposting it ad infinitum so - no idea." (me)
One wonders why you'd have liked to ignore the question. Shall I take your answer as a no, can't think of a single instance? Puts the lie to your whinging rant. It also shifts the responsibility back to you."(Volgadon)...I don't know about such cases in Israel, Volgadon, but in England feedback on a failed job applicatiOn would not normally involve who got the post.

"WAV, when i post here i post as an individual, not as a representative of any organisation. i have made this clear in the past, and it's partly why I choose to use a nom de guerre." (Ruth)...I got your real name (Joan Crump) and organisation (EFDSS/National Council) of work FROM YOU ON MUDCAT. And people can and have been brought before their seniors at work for things they do and say outside of work. Here's your latest: "I stand by everything I've ever said about your xenophobia, racism, narcissism and self-aggrandisement."...that about someone, me, who has found his way on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has at least tried to support the land rights of Aborigines, Masai, etc., has never attacked any particular culture or race and, on the contrary, does indeed love the world being multicultural. And, in your desire to attack me, you have also come up with this regarding my alma mater: "Just because an admissions officer with some hardcore recruitment targets once took pity on you,". Then: "Anyone who wants proof need only read what you've written." (Ruth)...here's my life's work.

Don - instead of all your knocking and bragging, do some recording for us to check FIRST.

"...some may not mind being called racist but I hate it, and "fight" back with words against it" (me)..."If you weren't racist, you wouldn't have written, posted & published what you have. Yes, you fight back with words, Wavy, but only in the form of lies and tantrums of personal abuse, not with any attempt to explain how your ridiculous manifesto isn't racist." (IB)...who recently on the "England's National Musical-Instrumnent" repeatedly referred to a recorder as an "Engrish frute"...because it was made in Japan?
My, above, manifesto isn't racist, IB, because there is no racism in it.

By the way, the last Weekly Walkabout questioned gambling...any thoughts on that matter..?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Joseph P
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:25 AM

I'll Win the lotto
That is my motto
When things are feeling gloomy

But getting employment
will increase life-enjoyment,
so time to hand out my resume!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:00 AM

Put your money where your mouth is, call the National Council and listen as they laugh you off the line for wasting their time with such trivial nonsense.

"WAV, when i post here i post as an individual, not as a representative of any organisation. i have made this clear in the past, and it's partly why I choose to use a nom de guerre." (Ruth)...I got your real name (Joan Crump) and organisation (EFDSS/National Council) of work FROM YOU ON MUDCAT. And people can and have been brought before their seniors at work for things they do and say outside of work. Here's your latest: "I stand by everything I've ever said about your xenophobia, racism, narcissism and self-aggrandisement."...that about someone, me, who has found his way on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has at least tried to support the land rights of Aborigines, Masai, etc., has never attacked any particular culture or race and, on the contrary, does indeed love the world being multicultural. And, in your desire to attack me, you have also come up with this regarding my alma mater: "Just because an admissions officer with some hardcore recruitment targets once took pity on you,". Then: "Anyone who wants proof need only read what you've written." (Ruth)...here's my life's work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:53 AM

WAV writes: "Don - instead of all your knocking and bragging, do some recording for us to check FIRST."

What a sniveling little piece of shit you are Wavyblowboy. Your complete lack of knowledge about Don Firth shines brightly through in that one stupid sentence. Don was performing live and a major part of the folk scene in his area about the time your sorry, broke-dick, self was born! If you had any interest in the others who live here in the Mudcat village you would know that. You don't. Mudcat is blessed by having the likes of Don Firth among us as well as Bob Nelson, Art Thieme, Bruce Murdoch, Sandy Paton, Jean Ritchie, and so many others.   Speak not of that which you don't know.

Your own work is so pathetic and laughable that statements like the one you made above are the ones that are the most defamatory of all. Your voice is below average at best and your blow-job technique on recorder coupled with your lack of any musicality make your offerings distasteful and in need of becoming burnt offerings. Please take all your crappy recordings and racist life's work out to the back and burn them......then run them over with a forklift.

On the other hand, YOU cannot be defamed by being labeled what you have have proven yourself to be with your own words..........a RACIST AND A BIGOT. You actually use the word "manifesto" regarding that drivel you write????? Last guy who used that was the Unibomber preceded of course by Hitler.   I'm sure both are closet heroes of yours.

You're still young but I figure the syphilis you inherited from Mumsy has already started eating away at your brain which causes you to act like such a complete moron. Either that or the genetic code passed on by the yak your mother kept as a lover is incompatible with that of sub-humans.....like your mother. Must be one or the other or maybe both......................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Hmmm two things from WAV-
"My, above, manifesto isn't racist, IB, because there is no racism in it.

By the way, the last Weekly Walkabout questioned gambling...any thoughts on that matter..? "

So it is a manifesto then WAV? Or a life's work? or your life's work manifesto?

Gambling? Let me put a 20 down that says you quote from yourself again instead of answering questions put to you. No wait, I'm feeling lucky, make it double or nothing.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

Well yeah Irish.....But who the hell besides Wavydickless would take the bet? (;<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ruth sans cookie
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

Look - it's the amazing disappearing posts!

I believe i was explaining to WAV that I am NOT employed by EFDSS - I sit on its governing body. I am self-employed. I speak for no one other than myself when I call his stated views racist, and sometimes sexist and homophobic, too. I will continue to refute his poisonoius views as long as he keeps making racist and xenophobic statements and trying to harness them to English folk culture.

If the only way you can fight the battles you yourself have started is to threaten to contact people's employers, doesn't that illustrate the bankruptcy of your ideology? Eliza Carthy is the EFDSS Vice President, but she spoke only for herself when she told you where to get off, Wavey. Are you gonna try and shop her, too?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:18 PM

Catspaw - more false and defamatory words from you.
IE - if you look, it was IB who decided to call my life's work
a "manifesto."
If RSC is Ruth Archer/Joan Crump, then more false and defamatory remarks from her (as well as deflection, this time).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:33 PM

Is there a drug that could make John McCain speak like catspaw?

Man could I have fun with that drug and a spray bottle.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

Lessee here................I'm reviewing the 4 paragraphs of my 7:53AM post.......................Hmmmmm........The first paragraph is completely factual......................Second is also.........Third one is right on the nose, no problem there...........................Now in the 4th I may have been wrong about your Mumsy.....Perhaps it was the yak that had syphilis.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

Well . . . I tried.

David Franks, you are pathetic.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM

All WAV seems to be able to do now is stamp his foot and repeat the tautologous phrase "False and Defamatory". Bollocks - he's nailed his colours to the mast as a racist, and now wriggles and whinges when it's picked up.
So, if it's defamatory, then sue. You should be able to find a solicitor to look over a print-out of the thread and give you some cheap advice under the 15-minute session basis, or even pro-bono. Or go to your local CAB.
You might not like what you hear.
But, for Pete's sake, stop bloody whinging. Or are you trying to be the archetypal Whinging Pom?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

Here is a question. Say you managed to get capitalist migration stopped. Now all those people in this 'rotten old world' who depended on income from jobs in other countries are left without even that. Now what? You say you are concerned about people and about inequality in the world, so how are they to be helped?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM

Don

I have no need to check your vocal and instrumental quality. I apologise for WAVs remarks on behalf of all right minded Brits.

Also Sean, I too found WAVs remarks to you in the worst of taste - even for him

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM

RE Don Firth.
http://pnwfolklore.org/AboutPNWF.html
http://www.stewarthendrickson.com/VictoryMusic/December-MusicalTrad_FirthNelsonConcert.html

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:47 PM

Deflection? Please do elaborate...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

Thank you, Stu. No apologies necessary. I have been something of an anglophile all my life and I regret that I have never had a opportunity to visit England, or the British Isles in general (my great grandfather came from Scotland). I believe I could live in England quite happily, and I know my wife could. What a varied and fascinating country!

And I'm certainly not going to judge a country or its people by the behavior of one village idiot.

And thank you for posting those links, Volgadon. I can hardly believe that the reunion concert that Bob and I did was over a year ago. And blessings all over John Ashford's grandson, Jordan. He can write my concert reviews any time he wants!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM

"the archetypal Whinging Pom?" (Gervase)....where you from?

"Here is a question. Say you managed to get capitalist migration stopped. Now all those people in this 'rotten old world' who depended on income from jobs in other countries are left without even that. Now what? You say you are concerned about people and about inequality in the world, so how are they to be helped?" (Volgadon)...I've answered that by pointing out how all the economic/capitalist immigration/emigration of the last century has NOT solved the rotten inequality in our world, and suggested, rather..

Poem 105 of 230: GLOBAL REGULATIONISM

No income-scale would be unjust -
    It's a matter of degree;
And, to have less inequality,
    Regulations are a must.

For, in Millennium's status quo,
    The pay-gaps for human work,
And what's gotten simply as a perk,
    Are wrong - inhumanely so.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Don - good to notice you just avoided the use of "Brits" (Stu) and used, rather, England, Scotland, and the British Isles.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM

Come on over, Don. Seriously - I've got a big ol' house and more bedrooms than I know what to do with. I could take you to some great places if you wanted to visit traditional events, or go to sessions or festivals - whatever. It's all I'm ever doing anyway!

It would be my pleasure. :)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM

Look, I know how you can end all this, WAV.

Just get down on your knees weeping in abject surrender and ADMIT that you're a racist, a child molester, a wife-beater, a bad driver, a really terribly bad poet, a moral leper, a witless jackoff, a contemptible jadrool, an insult to all western civilization, and a complete disgrace to humanity.

Apologize for even having been born.

Then demand that an international trial be held, similar to Nuremberg, and that you be condemned to summary execution after owning up to your evilness, and that your remains be then tossed to the jackals.

And swear to never post on this forum again.

And take down your website and burn all your writings.

Have your name erased from the Book of Days. Cease to be.

If you do all of the above, then the righteous assembly of your betters here will all have a giant collective orgasm, after which they will all have to lie down and rest for a bit.

Ah. Won't it be lovely? Good shall once again triumph over evil and the peaceable kingdom be restored.

*****

One thing worrisome about it, though...what will the good folk of Paris do with their spare time when Quasimodo is gone?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM

soon to be independent republic: Scotland.

I think Wavy believes that Scottish independence will result the expulsion of all non-Scottish nationals and a mass exodus of Scots from England back to their motherland. The extent to which Scotland and England interface on a cultural level will never change; most of my friends in Scotland are English, and most of my Scottish friends live in England. No doubt you're hoping for a rise of fevered nationalism leading to a blood bath of civil war and ethnic cleansing, but people will be too busy getting on with their lives to notice.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM

what will the good folk of Paris do with their spare time when Quasimodo is gone?

We'll be you, LH - watching the skies for little green men in their AFOs...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:42 PM

IB, maybe WAV is hoping for the blancmanges to turn all of England into Scots (an old Monty Python episode for any of you shaking your head now asking wtf?). Unlike the ending of that episode though, WAV is probably ensuring that it won't be a woman in the finals of Wimbledon, since WAV believes (and this is from his own writings mind you) that women are better suited to table tennis rather than tennis. I want to really know WAV, how you think this-for real? I know you play some tennis, but why do I get the feeling that the lowest ranked woman on the pro circuit probably would kick your ass? Why are they better suited to table tennis? Please explain that. People in your opinion are trying to "get" you on racism, but I really want to know about this. There are an awful lot of women here on mudcat, and saying to all of them effectively that you think they are better suited to the sport of table tennis (which by the way, when played at the professional level is no walkover of a sport) is, I think, a real slap in the face. Explain, without resort to a god damn poem.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:56 PM

Hey!

Quasimodo was one of the good guys! He may not have been pretty to look at, but he had a good heart. and he had a great sense of humor. At times he had a hard time keeping a straight face.

Quasimodo and I worked together, climbing all over tall cathedrals, ringing bells, and rescuing gypsy girls from lecherous priests.

So I knew Quasimodo.

Quasimodo was a friend of mine.

And WAV is no Quasimodo!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:04 PM

That's a real temptation, Ruth. Thank you for the invitation, and I really wish I could take you up on it.

My circumstances right now make it very unlikely, but who knows what the future may bring? Again, thank you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM

Hawkster, I am very proud of you. First I admire your tenacity in pointing out the obvious on this thread but we're all having such a good time and Wavy is such a limp dick that no one is listening!

But I am equally proud and pleased to see you have broadened your vocabulary.   I was a happy camper when you began using mamalucca which some witlesss jerkwad accused me of inventing! Now you have added another which the same ignorant nutsack licker claimed I had also "made up." Your new word is, as you know, one of my very favorites......."Jadrool."(basically meaning a worthless bum)    Lovely piece of Dago slang I heard from my earliest days. I remember Charlie Gardena using it in reference to a local jerk when I was about 6 and my Dad chastising him. As I recall the the conversation went:

Charlie: "Damn Unk, J__ S________ is the dumbest fockin' jadrool in the county."
The Ol' Man: "Geeziz Keericed Charlie.....Watch your gawdamn language. Ya' gotta' watch what the hell ya' say around the boy or his Momma will have my ass."

Obviously my Dad wanted to keep my mind pure and his ass safe.


I don't really want Walksaboutcrapping to leave. I want him to bring his Mum over for a chat. She might have a bone to pick with me, so to speak. I figure she's busy right now though going down on Joe the Plumber.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:49 AM

"the archetypal Whinging Pom?" (Gervase)....where you from?
England. Now living in Wales. And your point is?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:28 AM

Thanks for that effort LH, but, as you can see from IB's post straight after, it didn't work - I, and I'm sure Scottish Nationalists, don't want or expect a "blood bath" as these isles move toward independent friendly-rival republics.
IE - are you sure we haven't covered that "ANYONE for Tennis?" matter...but my stance is on my myspace TENNIS TIPS TO TRY blog, if you'd like a recap.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:20 AM

NO WAV, you have never elaborated why you feel, as you say, females are better suited for table tennis. Your blog does not elaborate on it either, rather, it just says that females are better suited for table tennis because of "strain on the elbows." I want to know why. You post your material on here to foster some type of discussion. Let me, and all the fine and amazing women who post on this forum know why you feel women are so ill suited to play a sport. Let me know why you feel they are better suited towards table tennis. Let me know how on earth you could say that with such amazing women tennis players as the Williams Sisters, Martina Navratilova, Chris Everett, Monica Seles, Steffi Graf, Lindsey Davenport, Martina Hingis, Billie Jean King. Let me know how you come to this decision in 2008 after the Women's Singles Champions were contested for the first time in the following years:

Australia-1922
French-1897
US Open-1887
Wimbledon-1884

Well...would you look at that, Wimbledon decided 114 years ago that women deserved their own championship match. By the way, the first men's championship at Wimbledon took place only seven years before that, in 1877.

So please WAV, answer how with a tradition in the modern era of equality for women and men as players of the sport, do you come by a stance that says women aren't suited to play the sport, rather they should be playing table tennis. Who are you to make a judgement on it anyway, with some of the most popular tennis players in the world being, in fact, women? You want to tell Venus and Serena that they should be making the switch indoors to table tennis? I said it before, but I'm quite certain that the lowest ranked woman on the pro circuit would beat you handily WAV.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:22 AM

Well, even if Scottish independence happens (unlikely, IMHO)there will certainly still be English people like Maggie living in Scotland, so I'm not entirely sure what the point was of bringing up the fact that she lives there.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM

Not willing to take my good advice and publicly confess your many sins, WAV? Well, I'm saddened by that. I was only trying to spare you another few years of extreme personal abuse here, but...well...perhaps you enjoy it? Who am I to say?

Anyway, pay no attention to what Insane Beard says. Of all the maleficent and gormless pitiable maundering jadrools in the world, he is the king. The man can't even tie his own shoes, for God's sake! He gets his maiden auntie to do them up for him each morning...besides which, did you know that he was last August's "cover boy" for Wankers' Monthly Magazine?

Yes, indeed. His name says it all. Insane Beard. The pity of it is that even if he shaved the damn thing off, the insanity would still remain. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

"strain on the elbows. I want to know why." (IE)...look at all the strapping and bulged veins on the ladies tour:
Tennis is a very masculine game, and the more masculine someone becomes by hitting lots of balls, and doing weights, the better they will be - unless they begin to get the injuries. Table tennis, on the other hand, if you'll pardon the pun, is much more about reflex, and the very top female players can keep their femininity - you may have noticed this during the olympics. I want to add, as I did on the still alive "Anyone for tennis?" thread, that I'd be quite happy, though, to work as a production manager under a female MD, or for the next Archbishop of Canterbury to be a female. However, if on a shop-floor I noticed a female about to lift a 25kg of raw material, I'd stop her and do it myself.
I've also admitted that pro female tennis players probably would beat me with my clubfoot and relatively slow court speed - but that is not the point, if you'll pardon another pun.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM

You do me great honor, Spaw. Thanks, man! Y'know, I've been thinking too that it would be really great if you could meet WAV's Mum sometime and she could get to know your family and you could get to know hers. Then, a little bit farther down the road, one of your children could marry one of WAV's children (I'm hoping and assuming he has some progeny) thus cementing an impermiable bond between your family lines, a bond that could be expected to produce heirs to your shared familial tradition unto time imemorial.

Whaddya think about that?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:38 PM

WAV, far be it from to question the integrity of your chosen medium to deliver your,er, 'unique' , um, 'content' to the world but I can't help but notice at least two of your friends on your MySpace site are actually dead.

How the fuck did they do that then? They were in the ground when MySpace was just an itch on Margaret Thatcher's left bollock?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM

Russian tennis star Maria Sharapova. Maria again. And again. Nah. Just doesn't cut it in the femininity department, I guess. Obviously, women tennis players are just too muscular to be feminine. And Russian women in particular.

Well, how about any of these ladies?   Maybe these?   Just too many bulging muscles to be considered feminine.

These women should learn to keep their proper place. In the kitchen and in the bedroom!

Lookout, David! Here it comes!    WHAP!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

LOL! Great pictures, Don! Geez, so we've added rampant male chauvinism to the list of WAV's sins, have we? Hot damn.

I think we are entering a whole new fertile area of controversy here, and I look forward to it. This is even better than the "Bat Boy" stories in "Weekly News of the World", I swear!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,VOlgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM

But we've already been through it, Wav's ways are one big round thingy that goes round in circles..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 09:50 PM

"...one big round thingy that goes round in circles.."

Much like his Mumsy's ass at a piano bar.............

So Wavyshriveledscrotum..........Why not do as Hawk says and send your dear mother around?   Make it in the spring in Cleveland so she can be plugged by all the Lake's sailors before the season gets busy. Then all the guys on the Duluth run can pick up their penicillin scrip as they pass through the Soo.

Is it true your Mom has the longest running case of the clap in recorded history?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:36 PM

That is no way to talk about a future relative and in-law, Spaw!

Whasamattah you? You wanna meet my big bruddah, Vinnie, is dat what youse want? You wanna go talk to da fishes?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM

Yeah, I'll take your fockin' Vinnie and raise you two Big Pauley's. Say, about the fish......I heard someone say once that for the right amount, they'd go underwater and fuck fish. I think it was Wavy's Mom.....................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM

He gets his maiden auntie to do them up for him each morning...besides which, did you know that he was last August's "cover boy" for Wankers' Monthly Magazine?

Wrong, wrong, wrong, LH - my shoelaces are done up each morning by Granma McAlatia - and whilst the cheque for the Wankers' Monthly cover shoot came in very handy indeed, of course I don't take the magazine myself, ahem, preferring as I do the far classier German quarterly Sich Abzapfen. Nice to know it gave someone someone some pleasure anyway...

Keep watching the skies!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:49 AM

"WAV, far be it from to question the integrity of your chosen medium to deliver your,er, 'unique' , um, 'content' to the world but I can't help but notice at least two of your friends on your MySpace site are actually dead. How the fuck did they do that then? They were in the ground when MySpace was just an itch on Margaret Thatcher's left bollock?" (Stigweard)...firstly, no need to swear, my friend!; for a while I avoided myspace
"Friends" (who are really just links) whose Spaces are definitely not mangaged by the person they present...but then I changed my mind and treated them more as links to some good stuff.

Don - last I heard Maria Sharapova was still out of action with a bad shoulder injury..?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM

Bollocks WAV. You once again twisted your answer to avoid really answering the question. "Tennis is a very masculine game" Really? Except for a history of the sport being played long ago by both men and women. You are complaining about the modern conditioning of all atheletes, both men and women. Does this end with tennis players only or does it include women atheletes in other sports who are in fabulous condition? Track and field? Gymnastics? Figure Skaters? How chivalrous of you to make a determination that a woman can't lift something heavy and therefore needs your help. Here's the reality as I see it. Not only do you have questionable views on music, immigration, and race, you have a verifiable bias towards women's equality. While most of us view the awesome athleticism of top women's athelete's in a variety of sports, you scorn them. While most of us recognize that women are immensely capable of any type of work, you seek to subvert them and 'lift that heavy box for them.' But I guess women working out, or doing physical work is a turn off for you what with all the 'bulging muscles.' You never cease to amaze me in your backward ways. I'm almost speechless at times with your views, that someone in 2008 could hold them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM

Admit it, people...you're all just arguing with WAV because it gives you some'at to do.

That's why I post here. It's better than staring at the walls and wondering when Winona will call. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: irishenglish
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM

NO LH. I'm arguing with a guy who shares his backward views in life and how he thinks life should be on a public forum. SOmething tells me you probably don't agree with him much LH. Do YOU think women are better suited to table tennis to use one of WAV's beliefs? Probably not. Is it such a fucking problem for me to say WAV-you're wrong. Here's why I think you're wrong. Is it wrong for me to ask him to elaborate on why he thinks that way? Think whatever you want LH. I see myself arguing with someone who still wishes it was 1877, and wants life to revert back to that state. Enough said.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM

IE - I thought I gave a frank answer...and is the facet of my belief that I'd be genuinely happy for the next Archbishop of Canterbury to be a female really that "backward"? Perhaps you do know that a lot are STILL against the idea and only chose to ignore that bit because you couldn't bare to agree on anything..? On average, men are naturally physically stronger, yes?...so what's wrong with SOME divisions?

And will LH finally win Winona we wonder..?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

I am NOT C. of E., so could care less about a female archbishop, but shouldn't the important matter be finding out God's will, rather than feminism?

The Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't have much heavy lifting to do, not does he engage in much sports, so of course Wav doesn't mind a woman in the role.

Wav, what in a woman's life takes the most toll of her femininity (as defined by you)?

Ready for the answer? Childbirth. Should none become mothers because they might balloon up and develop strong arms?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM

"...so what's wrong with SOME divisions?"

And just who's going to determine what those divisions should be, David? And who is going to administer them?

I certainly wouldn't want the job. I am sure as hell not going to try to tell women what they can and cannot do! The sweet, delicate little darlings are perfectly capable of deciding that for themselves!

The two best, most conscientious doctors I've ever had were women. My first fencing teacher was a woman. The pastor of the church I often attend is a woman.

####

True. Maria Sharapova's right shoulder was bothering her a bit, but she continued to play for some three months before her trainer then pulled her from competition. This made it necessary for her to miss several tennis tournaments, including the Beijing Olympics. An MRI showed that she had two small tears in her rotator-cuff, but they did not require surgery. She is taking the time for the injury to heal and feels she should be ready to play again in a few months.

An injury of this sort is certainly not an indictment of women's tennis. Rotator-cuff injuries are far more common among male baseball pitchers than they are among women tennis players. And there are far more elbow injuries among pitchers than among women tennis players.

Anyone—anyone—who takes part in a sport has to expect the possibility of the occasional injury. Take, for example, the incidence of repeated concussions among football players (male), including high school kids, that sometimes result in decrease cognitive ability.

In fact, one cannot engage in any activity, including the arts, without the possibility of some kind of injury. Take ballet for example. A not uncommon injury among ballerinas are stress-fractures in their lower legs caused by the unnatural act of dancing en pointe (on their toes). Would you suggest that women not be allowed to become ballet dancers?

And by the way, Maria Sharapova's rotator cuff injury may not have been a result of her playing tennis. I suffered a small rotator cuff tear some years ago merely by inadvertently sleeping on my shoulder in an awkward position. It healed up within a fairly short time.

Naturally you should not be recklessly foolhardy, but if you allow fear of possible injury to rule your life, you would never get out of bed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM

Not a bad idea, if it spares us the life's work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM

My wife cheerfully and ably lifts PA equipment when we gig. She is probably not as strong as I am but she's a damn sight fitter. We work together as equal in all respects. I would rather lift objects - amps etc - with her than with most men I know


Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM

Judging from some of the things he's said, I tend to suspect that David doesn't know very many women.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:00 PM

Volgadon - You asked, " shouldn't the important matter be finding out God's will"

Well, here's the way I see it. I think God's will is simply that every sentient being in the Universe should have his or her own free will in full measure and should get the chance to make use of it, and experiment with it, and find out where it takes them....and they will thereby gain much wisdom (although gradually, in most cases). ;-)

I think God gives free will to everyone without strings attacked. I do not think God takes free will away from anyone. Law enforcement agencies, governments, courts, dictators, bullies, parents, bosses, teachers, military officers, and individual people of all kinds take free will away from many other people around them...God doesn't).

Our problem is not with God at all. Our problem is in dealing with each other.

To put it another way: Hell is other people. Heaven can be other people also, fortunately, but that takes quite a bit more work and finesse. It's very easy to destroy something valuable (like a car or a house or a relationship), but quite difficult to build or create it. Check out this forum daily for proof of what I have just said.

irishenglish - I'm beginning to think my peculiar sense of humour about the human race just doesn't click with you for some reason....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

without strings "attached", I mean...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM

"And just who's going to determine what those divisions should be, David? And who is going to administer them?" (Don)...to save a search, do you remember off-hand who administered the rule/law that women could not run a marathon? Me - I'd say, as ever, each nation and the UN.

Although she may be much more on your side than mine on this matter, Sue Barker has said on the BBC that she played a lot of her matches with pain-killers injected into her wrist - tennis DOES indeed put a lot more strain on the arm than table tennis.

"In fact, one cannot engage in any activity, including the arts, without the possibility of some kind of injury. Take ballet for example. A not uncommon injury among ballerinas are stress-fractures in their lower legs caused by the unnatural act of dancing en pointe (on their toes). Would you suggest that women not be allowed to become ballet dancers?" (Don)...I've looked at this, also - Poem # 192...I'd do away with en pointe.

Volgadon - I have a spare tennis racket but no lap-top.

LH - hearing you, I think the best way is to accept that humans are competitive, and have good regulations to make things as fair as possible..."Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).

Now for something completely different...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 163 of 230: ON A CLEAR DAY - SUMMER 2001

Far - the Lakelands behind Blackpool Tower;
    Well-ebbed - the ocean and estuary;
Odd - a sand-digger and wagons that cross;
    Tonal - the flats left by tidal power;
Patched - the grasses surviving the big tides;
    Plonked - the driftwood sprouted in other lands;
Clinging - the coastal flora to the dunes;
    Busy - the bees and folks on Southport rides.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

Volgadon - You asked, " shouldn't the important matter be finding out God's will"

Well, here's the way I see it.

Ah, but that's not what I asked. Frankly, I don't care about the way you see it, LH, or even the way I myself see it.

For what it's worth though, I absolutely agree with you on free will, and of what you said about relationships with people.

Volgadon - I have a spare tennis racket but no lap-top.

I have neither. What does that have to do with any of my points, which you have ignored.

LH - hearing you, I think the best way is to accept that humans are competitive, and have good regulations to make things as fair as possible..."Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).

I see your William Shakespeare and raise you a Patrick Henry.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:51 PM

So, David, you consider yourself qualified to tell people the world over what cultural practices they may be allowed to follow (including what songs they can sing and how they must sing them), along with where they may live and work. In addition, you would restrict the activities of women even further, mandating specific sports and art forms they not be allowed to participate in, since they are intellectually incapable of making such determinations themselves. And this is for their own good, of course.

While trying to support your point by focusing on Sue Barker's taking pain-killer shots, did it ever occur to you to check on any male athletes who do the same thing? Of course not! And as far as women running the Marathon are concerned, you might take a moment or two to educate yourself on the subject: CLICKY. And I fail to see how writing a semi-impressionistic but generally incomprehensible quatrain about having seen Swan Lake and The Nutcracker makes you an authority on ballet technique.

I'm sure that women the world over will show your concern for their welfare with all of the appreciation it deserves.

There may be a reason that you don't know very many women.

Who, precisely, anointed you Grand Poohbah of the Cosmos?

God save us from the megalomaniacs of the world!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:59 PM

He has to secure the approval and blessing of William Shatner in order to aspire to become Grand Poohbah of the Cosmos, and it would require the issuance of a Shatneric Bull to achieve this. I don't foresee that happening, but who can say? Shatner moves in mysterious ways.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM

ON A CLEAR DAY - SUMMER 2001

You did Blackpool and Southport in the same day?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:33 PM

Lemme see . . . wasn't William Shatner "The Big Head" on Third Rock from the Sun?

Looks like there's a lot of that going around.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu s c
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:46 AM

Blackpool and Southport on the same day is easy if you can walk on water

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

"Plonked - the driftwood sprouted in other lands;"

In-fucking-credible.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 12:15 PM

Yes, I was particularly struck by that line too. It takes an unusual grasp of poetic form and function to come up with that, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:13 PM

Re: ON A CLEAR DAY - SUMMER 2001, above.

"You did Blackpool and Southport in the same day?" IB - in that poem I'm trying to describe what I saw from the promenade that runs along the Southport coast...are you with me now? And, yes Stu, it included some F-ing driftwood that, I deduced, "sprouted in other lands". Plus, thanks clumps, LH.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

Driftwood that "sprouted in other lands" and found its way to English shores?

OUT! OUT!   Get it out of here before it corrupts our "good English culture!"

Foreign driftwood, indeed!! Harrumph!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu s c
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 03:16 PM

No WAV the driftwood post is Stigweard's, not mine. Read for comprehension...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM

Strangely in that 'poem' WAV I think one of your spare punctuation marks would have helped.

'...bees, and folks on Southport rides'

usually you have a few too many for intelligibility

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM

In that poem I'm trying to describe what I saw from the promenade that runs along the Southport coast...are you with me now?

I think that should have been made clear from the start, maybe even in the title, but the opening line unseats the entire thing even to one with the most casual acquaintance with the landscape in question. Far - the Lakelands behind Blackpool Tower implies that it's the Lakelands that are far, as indeed they are when seen from Blackpool Tower on a clear day. So right from the start we're up Blackpool Tower, looking out, up and down the coast which you go on to describe for the next six lines. It's the seventh, and last, line that threw me of course, about the busy bees on the Southport rides, but not enough to put myself through it again. Once was enough: as it was written, so it was read!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

You puzzle me, Insane Beard. Here you are obsessing about WAV's poetry when you could be abducted and subjected to embarrassing probes at any moment! ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:52 PM

You puzzle me, Insane Beard. Here you are obsessing about WAV's poetry when you could be abducted and subjected to embarrassing probes at any moment! ;-)

Okay - I might as well come clean here. Having been a regular abductee since the 7th of March 1975 c/o a particularly pernicious hive of Greys one of the only ways I might counter the trauma is by obsessing over Wavy's poetry. Though they're not from Venus, they do have a base there, albeit several hundred miles underground in the deep subvenusian cool; they also have a crystal residence on the surface of Neptune which is much preferable. How I love those blue monochrome sunsets - anal probes notwithstanding of course - especially if they forget to warm them up first. But hey, its a small price to pay for a front-seat blast down the proximal worm-hole to the star we humans know as Megrez. I won't attempt to render it in their language, which is almost indecipherable on account of their telempathical communication, which has rendered their capacity for actual speech vestigial to say the least.

The main thrust of the Grey mission to our planet these past 50 years or so has been the collecting of folk songs, their own traditions in this respect having died out completely on account of the aforementioned telempathical communication. Essentially, this is a non-linguistic form of interaction based on the direct transferral of intellectual images, concepts and meta-theorems in non-symbolic form. Consequently, they are, as you might imagine, hungry for both symbolism and emotional experience, having rationalised the fun out of life several millennia back when they evolved to the stage where such base animal functions as fucking, eating, drinking, pissing, shitting, disease, ageing and death became a thing of the past. The more folky Greys however, are eager to revive their lost traditions by somehow reversing certain aspects of their physical evolution thus enabling them to experience, albeit vicariously, the pleasures we humans take for granted. Hence the anal and rectal probes, which they employ in a stimulation of the male G-spot in an effort to synthesise the experience and intensity of the venereal spasm with none of the consequent mess and discomfort. As you might imagine, not all Greys see it this way, regarding the entire mission as backward and reactionary, hence the covert nature of their operations in our solar system.

Thus co-opted, however so reluctantly, my interest in folk song is entirely the result of an implant in my brain which engenders a prospective urge with respect to the learning and the singing of traditional balladry and songs of ceremony & ritual that my particular implant is finely tuned to. All my experiences in this respect are recorded for later up-loading into the Grey Hive Central Cultural Processor (my own term I might add) whereby they might access both them and the attendant emotional pleasure which is entirely forbidden on account of their intolerance to alcohol. Indeed, the events of July 7, 1947 are crucial not only to our understanding of Ufology, but also the Folk Revival as a whole. This, in many respects, is Ground Zero, quite literally as one of the early Grey folk song collecting missions went seriously awry on account of their intolerance to the hooch they'd collected along with the songs from certain traditional singers the Ozark mountains. Innocent of its effects on their delicate nervous systems, they ended up downing their craft in Roswell, New Mexico on that fateful day. There was but one survivor, and though his physical body was entirely destroyed by both the effects of the moonshine and the trauma of the crash, they were able (by means of Grey Technology) to upload his essence into the mind of a 6-year-old boy - 6-year-old boys being particularly receptive in this respect. The name of this boy is recorded as Robert Allen Zimmerman, born May 24, 1941, in Duluth, Minnesota. Thus did they learn from their mistakes and found other ways of engineering and, indeed, influencing The Revival thereafter...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM

That is F-ing BRILLIANT, Insane Beard! LOL! Look, man, you have a lucrative career ahead as follows:

- the talk show circuit - contact Art Bell at once!!! Then get booked on all the radio and TV talk shows you can and flog this thing!

- publishing - Your revelations would resound through the New Age and Ufologist communities and would, I am sure, result in the sale of at least 600,000 copies in the first year! In the longer run, I'm thinking you might outstrip Carlos Castaneda in total book sales and become so famous that you will have to get plastic surgery and a sex change and then move to an undisclosed location in Patagonia in order to escape the attentions of your most fanatical fans and readers.

- movie rights - I'm thinking BIG here. Tom Cruise material for sure. Tom plays you. We'll get Angelina Jolie into it somehow too. Work on building that angle, okay?

- I will serve as your agent for a small reward. Really quite small. Only maybe in 7 figures annually, more or less.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

WOW! That clears up a lot!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM

It really deserves a thread all of its own, in my opinion. It's the best thing I've read around here in quite some time.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:04 PM

"Strangely in that 'poem' WAV I think one of your spare punctuation marks would have helped.'...bees, and folks on Southport rides' usually you have a few too many for intelligibility" (Stu)...no, I'm happy with that bit of poetic licence, thanks Stu - the bees, at that bit of Southport, were flying about on "rides" of sorts.

And IB - from where I was standing on that clear day, the Lakelands were indeed seen behind Blackpool Tower.

P.S: speaking of Neptune, Venus, etc. - I got 4 stars, from someone, for that particular piece, on a rival forum!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

David, Neptune, Venus, etc., are planets, not stars.

Who's giving out these planets, anyway, and how did they get the deeds to them?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

And I would really think twice before accepting them. Neither of them is what you could call "prime real estate." Neptune is a gas giant and it's colder than a well-digger's knee out there. Venus is relatively nearby, but it's hotter than a pizza oven. Not particularly nice places to visit, and I certainly wouldn't want to live there!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

Rival forum? Mudcat doesn't have any rival forums.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Insane Beard
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:58 PM

And IB - from where I was standing on that clear day, the Lakelands were indeed seen behind Blackpool Tower

I don't doubt it, Wavy - but clear is the last think it is in your poem.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:02 PM

Nah, LH, I think folky aliens would be uncool too.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

And think of it! The Greys might take to telepathing English folk songs! And if that weren't bad enough, they might do it with the wrong accent!

Ghastly!! Simply unacceptable!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM

Bah! Humbug! You're probably still bitching about Dylan going electric too, aren't you?   ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:46 PM

I found that downright shocking!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:30 AM

...where would he be without Joan Baez, and then heaps of hype?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

Judas.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:35 AM

Tell you summat WAV, if YOU'd had Joan Baez rooting for you, and loads of hype, Bob Dylan would still be the better poet. So would I, and so would Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM

Without Joan Baez and the heaps of hype Bob Dylan would have taken, I estimate, about 1 year longer to have achieved much the same level of success that he did achieve. The man was simply unstoppable, and he was stunningly talented (and unique) as both a lyricist and a musical performer...which is exactly what attracted Joan to him in the first place and caused her to give him so much help with his career. She rendered him a great service in so doing, but he would have made it in any case.

Just read Joan's excellent autobiography "A Voice To Sing With" for confirmation of what I have said. She regards Dylan as the finest songwriter of her generation (or any since). She had heard a lot of buzz about him before she met him, and she said that upon searching him out in the New York coffeehouses and seeing him perform she immediately realized that the buzz was more than justified. She said something to this effect (I paraphrase) that "Some people get jealous in the presence of genius. I don't. I get excited."

The clearest indication of how impressed she was is that she has covered more of Dylan's songs in her own discography than of any other writer, and she went so far as to do a double album entirely of his songs.

Thanks, Joan! ;-) It's one of my favourites.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM

I must confess I find Dylan actually painful to listen to; maybe it's my Traddy Folk Implant (see below) which goes haywire when faced with singer-songwriters, or (God forbid) protest singers, but I do enjoy his Theme Time Radio Hour shows as much for the music as the sound of his voice which is like a cross between Zappa's Central Scrutiniser and Vic Reeves' Kinky John / Inspector Fowler. A high point of our cultural lives was when Vic used one of our paper tissues to stuff up his cheeks so he could do the Fowler Voice at his reading as part of the Durham Literature festival a few years back.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM

Heh! Well, it's a matter of personal taste, right? He has sung in so many different voices by this late date that one would wonder which one of them bothers you more...or less....

Now, if protest songs bother you, then does Buffy Sainte-Marie get on your nerves too? What about Joan Baez? They have both done plenty of protest material in their time. Judy Collins did too. All a protest songs is....it's a political or social comment on something that is going on in our lives, suggesting that there is need of a change.

Given the fact that we all discuss such things amongst one another on a reasonably frequent basis, I don't see why we can't write songs about them too. A song can be about anything.

It is undoubtedly true that many protest songs have been poorly written, make their point in a strident and clumsy fashion, and therefore are not very good songs. That can be irritating to listen to. Some, however, have been exceedingly well written and are very good songs.

If you look back through the catalog of trad songs of Scotland, England, Ireland, and America you will find a simply vast number of songs in which things are protested....because people then were very concerned about the political and social issues of their day, just as they are now. You will find protests against the rich, protests against English colonialism, protests against war, protests against the cutting down of old forests, protests against both petty and great tyrants of all sorts during those times. Those are trad songs, Insane Beard, and those are among the songs you apparently like, correct?

Why then does it become a problem for you when the protest song is moved into the present era?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu sans cookie
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM

Four Stars. Wow!

Next will be an OBE for your political efforts. Did you notice I don't swear at you?

I repeat: people will say kind untruths that won't help you to improve, but may encourage you to continue.

Many people here will say unkind truths in the hope that you won't continue unless you improve.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM

On the matter of being awarded planets:   none of them are what one could call a real prize.

Mercury is not much nicer than the moon, really. Same general landscape, no atmosphere. Warmer climate perhaps. The mean temperature on Mercury would melt lead. Venus, I have mentioned above. Earth is already inhabited by an odd species that is constantly fighting over its land and resources, which it is about to run out of because they use them up as if there is no tomorrow, and they breed like bloody rabbits. Mars may have a few things going for it, but atmosphere and climate aren't quite them. Jupiter has a fierce gravity and its atmosphere is made up mostly of hydrogen and methane. Cattle and people produce more than enough methane right here on Earth, and I think that as much methane as Jupiter has in its atmosphere would have quite a bit of "hang-time," don't you?

Now, working inward, Pluto has recently been demoted. It appears to be more or less similar to Mercury, but smaller. Pluto is as cold as Mercury is hot. And Nepture, I have also dealt with above.

And as to the one remaining planet, if you were to say to people, "I like Uranus," I think they'd probably give you some pretty funny looks as they quickly backed away.

That's today's astronomy lesson.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu sans cookie
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM

I'm sure there's a poem somewhere that would cure the ills of the Solar System Don

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

Don - we get a mostly-classical channel here called "oMusic TV," for some reason, and on it are featured a group called "The Planets"...I think they could be you and your party's cup of tea; meanwhile, I'm into town for some poetry readings...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM

1000

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:46 PM

"The Planets," a seven movement orchestral suite by Gustav Holst. I'm quite familiar with it. I believe what Holst had in mind when he composed the work is more the mythological attributes ascribed to each planet rather than their astrological characteristics.

Very nice work, actually.

Midi renditions of the suite HERE.   Very "electronic" sound compared to the orchestral versions, but interesting nonetheless.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM

I must admit (at the risk of being stoned in the streets) that Bob Dylan is not, and never has been, my cup of tea. I found him grating right from the start, and it was a bit later that I began to understand the reasons for my immediate and visceral negative reaction to him.

It seems that when he was in high school, he was singing rock and roll (nothing wrong with that) and that he had a fairly nice singing voice, not unlike Buddy Holly's. The word is that some of his school friends were more than a little appalled when they heard his first folk records. What had he done to his singing voice!??

I believe it was in Positively 4th Street that David Hajdu described the "transition" that Dylan went through once he reached Greenwich Village.

What he was doing was suppressing his natural voice, singing through his nose, wandering off-pitch (which he hadn't been doing before), and generally trying to sound like he was ninety years old and toothless. This, apparently, was his idea of how folk songs should be sung!

Well—there are a lot of people out there who seem to feel that if you want to be a folk singer, you should not try to sing well—or that you should try not to sing well. This shows a level of contempt for one's audiences and it demeans both the songs themselves and the source singers who sang them, some of whom are very good singers by almost any standard.

If a song is worth singing, whether it is a folk song, a pop song, or an art song, it is worth trying to sing it to the best of your ability. I don't mean that you should try to make a folk song sound like Schubert lieder; one should stay within the stylistic framework of any genre of songs. But intentionally singing badly is not an inherent characteristic of folk music, and to do so intentionally is both phony and degrading to the whole genre.

My apologies to Bob Dylan enthusiasts, but them's my sediments.

As far as protest songs are concerned, heck, I sing a few of them myself. But a little bit goes a long way. I really hate it when I pay good money to hear someone sing and they spend the whole evening trying to propagandize me from the stage, "lecturing" the audience with their choice of songs. Part of it may be that so many singers of protest songs seem so damned self-righteous.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM

"Part of it may be that so many singers of protest songs seem so damned self-righteous."

Yeah...just like most of the membership here seem whenever they start discussing politics, social issues, religion, morality, incidents in the news, each other's posts and general attitude, etc.

We are daily awash here in a sea of self-righteous posturing. Thank God it is not all put into song, eh, Don? ;-)


You are quite correct that Bob Dylan deliberately altered his voice after becoming enamored of folk music. He did this instinctively, mainly because he had fallen in love with the music of people like Woody Guthrie, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, and a bunch of the old acoustic blues singers. He took on all the husk and bark of those men...with rather remarkable results. Some liked it, some didn't. I can well understand why you didn't like it, and I didn't like it at first either. My natural instinct is to sing purely and on key, not through the nose, with resonance, without the husk and bark.

I can't fault Dylan for doing it at the time, though, because it's so common for young people to take on an accent or vocal style in that way. Why do country singers all seem to sing with a "twang"? Why do male country singers wear big hats? Well, because they grew up wanting to, that's why. They were imitating a style they admired. All young Bob was doing was imitating a style he admired...and that style was the style of the specific musicians he was inspired by the most at the time. He probably considered it "realer" than singing "pretty", but it's not a style you admire. Fine.

I quite agree that deliberately singing badly is not required in order to sing folk music. ;-) It can also be rather hard on the vocal chords.

I feel that by 1965 Dylan had become an extremely effective singer in his own right, with his own style. He had considerably moved away from the Guthriesque thing by that time, both vocally and lyrically.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM

I will also say that the key with protest music (usually) is to work just enough of it into an act to present a contrast to the rest of the material and keep things interesting. In other words, mix things up a bit. Inject some humour. Add some romance. Some sad stuff. Some happy stuff. Some thoughtful stuff. Many ingredients make for a good stew.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:24 PM

Good point, Little Hawk, about Dylan being young and trying to imitate the people he admired.   But I think he carried it to extremes. There was one comment I read (I think it was in Hajdu's book, but I can't swear to it) that after visiting Woody Guthrie at the hospital, Dylan was singing someplace and was staggering and twitching all over the stage as he sang. "Someone muttered, 'He's not just imitating Guthrie, he's imitating Guthrie's disease.'" (Huntington's chorea).

I think that in becoming Bob Dylan, Bobby Zimmerman kinda got lost somewhere. . . .

And just to be clear, I'm not advocating that people should try to "sing pretty." Truth to tell, some really fine singers don't have particularly pretty voices. Dave Van Ronk, for example:   the guy sounded like a rusty hinge. But boy! could he put a song across!

Trying to "sing pretty" can actually detract from a song. Just sing honest.

Re: protest songs. I don't often sing protest songs, and definitely not the more blatant ones. It has to have something to justify it as a song other than the protest, otherwise, it's just bitching. I will occasionally stick something like Johnnie, I Hardly Knew Ye (I don't sing the more strident verses; I sing just the four verses I learned from Walt Robertson, which more than adequately delineate the personal tragedy without beating the audience over the head with it) or Guthrie's Deportees into an evening's program, and then move on to something lighter.

In the concert Bob Nelson and I did together last year, in the second half, I sang Eric Bogle's The Green Fields of France and Bob followed with Tom Paxton's My Son John—two very heavy songs, especially one after the other. Left the audience a bit stunned. We'd made our point. Then, we moved on and lightened the mood a lot.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I don't think I would equate taking a strong stand on a moral or ethical issue with "self-righteous posturing." Granted, there is a bit of that here on Mudcat, but I think most people here have some pretty definite opinions. And some folks even have the facts to back them up!

Man! Some people hate that!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

I still think that, within limits, it is good to affect one's voice for the genre, and have attempted such on, e.g., "Cob a Coaling" (E trad) versus "When I survey the Wondrous Cross" (E hymn) on myspace.

And, Don, I agree about '"The Planets," a seven movement orchestral suite by Gustav Holst. I'm quite familiar with it. I believe what Holst had in mind when he composed the work is more the mythological attributes ascribed to each planet rather than their astrological characteristics. Very nice work, actually'...but there is indeed also a classicalish band called The Planets, which I thought you may be interested in.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:24 AM

It would appear our wee Wavy gets his entire understanding of English culture from his television set. Try Channel U for a change, Wavy - last time I looked it was right next to the classical channel you mention, though classical in what sense I know not - dire pop-schlock MOR AOR more like. Interesting to note that if you got rid of Sky TV you could save yourself £300 a year and buy yourself a couple of decent wooden recorders; just goes to show where your real priorities lie!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

PS -

I still think that, within limits, it is good to affect one's voice for the genre, and have attempted such on, e.g., "Cob a Coaling" (E trad) versus "When I survey the Wondrous Cross" (E hymn) on myspace.

What exactly is the difference in your singing of WISTWC and CAC? I notice on both you attempt the same Northern Vowel Sound Approximation, and whilst in the latter the lack of accompaniment masks the intonation problems which are painfully evident in the former, I don't think this is an adequate argument for singing UE per se, rather an indication of how sloppy your approach in relation to the arrogance that would assume anyone would want to listen to it, let alone that it is somehow worthwhile. Yes, yes, it's all very subjective I know, but when it comes to the point where the only person you're fooling is yourself, then perhaps it's time to face a few home truths?

Get out of the mire and dry your trousers, Wavy - there's still a hell of a long way to travel before your life's work is at an end.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM

It's an old story, but perhaps WAV would like to read it, and ponder thereupon.

There was once a young Irish fiddler, the old country jigs and reels and all that. Nobody thought much of his music, there were always plenty of good players over there. Then, one night after being ignored once more in the pub session, he was walking back through the woods, when he heard a tiny voice cry out: "Help, for pity's sake, help!"

He looked all around, and at first he couldn't see anything. But a shaft of moonlight lit up the glade for a moment, and he saw a tiny little man dressed in green, caught in a huge spider's web.

It was the work of a few moments to free him, and the little man's gratitude overflowed. Of course, he was a leprechaun, and he granted Kieran his dearest wish as a reward. "I'd love to be a good fiddler", said Kieran. "Done as soon as said!" cried the leprechaun, "But tell me, do you want to play to please yourself, or to please everyone else?"

"Well, I'd be happy just to please myself", said Kieran. "Well, if you're sure about that, so be it", said the leprechaun, and in a twinkling he was gone. Kieran walked home bemused, perhaps it was all a dream, too much Guinness.

But the next evening, he got out his fiddle and thought about what had passed. "I wonder, will it make a difference?" he thought. He tentatively tried a tune... hey, that was good.. another, the Rakes of Mallow, pouring out of his fiddle like nothing he had ever heard. It was true!

You can be sure he could scarcely wait for the next session. He waited for a lull in the music, then launched off into the Spinning Wheel, lovely tune, perfect.... "Aw, shut the f*** up, Kieran, give us a break!" People were actually leaving, what had gone wrong?

Walking back home disconsolately, there in the woods, who should he meet but your man the leprechaun again. "Ah, I thought ye'd be back", he said. "It didn't go according to plan then?"

"No, it sounded fine to me, but they all hated it", said Kieran. "Well", said the leprechaun, "You could always try the other choice." "I'll give it a try," replied Kieran. And once more the leprechaun vanished.

It was days before he had the heart to get out his fiddle again, in the kitchen of his cottage. And the foul scraping noise that he made! He persisted for perhaps half an hour, but each tune was worse than the last, and in the end he put the fiddle away, vowing never to touch it again.

No sooner had he done so, than there was a hammering at the door. Opening it, there he found Mick McGowan and Jimmy Moloney, the two best musicians in the session. "What was that record you was playing there?" they asked, "We've never heard fiddling like that, who was it?"

"I don't know what you mean, I was just scraping on the fiddle," said Kieran, "I haven't got a record player or a radio." "God, man, that can't have been you? Play it again!"

After much persuasion, he got out the fiddle again, and started a tune. Boys of Blue Hill, as bad as any beginner, he stopped half way through. "There, I told you," he was saying. "Go on man, that's marvellous," gasped the others, "You've been putting in some practice on the QT!"

Kieran couldn't believe it, but they hauled him out to the pub, got all the musicians of the area together, and the session that night was remembered for years. Only Kieran hated every minute. Scrapes, missed notes, forgot the tune ("Jaysus man, that's a wonderful turn you've put on it there!"), everything was wrong, and everybody was screaming for more.

And that man the fiddler Kieran Mulligan (google for him) is renowned to this day. And widely known for his modesty, patience with learners, and reluctance to put himself forward. And the moral is that the true artist is his own harshest critic.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

Nice one, Paul - I've got a recording somewhere of Seamus Ennis telling that in prelude to The Lark's March (if my memory serves me rightly).

Oddly enough, in a music shop in Lancaster on Saturday (is there only the one music shop in Lancaster I wonder?) I was trying out a few whistles, fumbling my way through the old Wheelwright's Tune of the Abbot's Bromley Horn Dance which pushes any whistle to its upper limits, thinking to myself what a racket I was making in the process. However, on our way out the young woman browsing the sheet music thanked me for my beautiful playing! How's that for truckley-how? Needs must I persevere with my whistle playing, as I have been these past 30 years...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu sans cookie
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

Sean - I can't tell the difference in tone between coc and wistwc either. Intonation however is an area where in all sincerity I believe wav could make massive improvements with the help of a teacher/singer/musician who was prepared to give him some honest help and criticism.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM

IB - you are getting a tad carried away...we didn't meet on the tele, e.g.; some say polymer tenor recorders can sound just as good as woods (though I've never tried the latter); and on "When I survey the Wondrous Cross" I'm surely singing in a sweeter Sunday-best timbre, whatever my intonation, than on my folk songs, on myspace.

Thanks for adding some storytelling to the mix, PB.

Stu - I keep playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...and listening to others too, of course, etc. And that's one thing I am very sure of - working on the TUNES is a good thing for an English folkie to do.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM

Excellent, Paul!!

By the way, David. Whether one is singing off-pitch or not is not subjective. This is scientifically measurable.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:16 PM

I do detect a difference when I listen to your WISTWC. The rest of the songs are sung out of pitch, off key and in a ridiculos accent, but WISTWC adds a touch of twee to the mix. As Don said, try to sing honestly.
Doesn't have to be perfect (or Sunday best), in fact that renders it bland. When you sing WISTWC, you need to be living out the words. That would call for emphasising certain words, for putting feeling into it. If you weren't so closed-minded about 'Your Own Good Culture', you could pick up a lesson or two from Jewish paraliturgical music (piyutim).   

Stu - I keep playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...and listening to others too, of course, etc. And that's one thing I am very sure of - working on the TUNES is a good thing for an English folkie to do.

The tune is far from the most important part of a folksong. The important part is getting the story across.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM

"By the way, David. Whether one is singing off-pitch or not is not subjective. This is scientifically measurable." (Don)...I didn't say either - I said whether folks happen to like particular piece can be subjective...one man's meat...
And Volga added on - I watch Songs of Praise (BBC) nearly every week, and have some good Christian recordings, and am sure that the top singers in this genre are affecting their voice so as to sound sweeter, more-angelic, etc.
And, from the "Chords in Folk?" thread, it was said that English folk music is not all about the tune but it is/has been mostly
so.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

Said by YOU.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM

Enough!!!

Give us more poetry.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

Poetry you want? Okay.

Note on the Antiquity of Fleas

Adam
Had'em.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM

A jaded young lady named Jill
Tried a dynamite stick for a thrill
They found her vagina
In North Carolina
And a bit of her clit in Brazil

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM

Poetry
What
Is
It
Good
For.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:59 PM

Dirty Limericks? We can do dirty Limericks now? Oh, boy!!

There was a young fellow from Kent
With an organ so long that it bent.
To save himself trouble
He inserted it double,
So instead of coming, he went.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:04 PM

From the Archives:

There was an inventor named Gene
Who invented a sex machine.
Concave or convex
To please either sex,
But, man! What a bugger to clean!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

"I said whether folks happen to like particular piece can be subjective...one man's meat..."

Well I subjectively don't like your stuff because it's horribly out of tune. Forget 'intonation problems' - you're tone deaf and you'll never be a singer while ever there's a hole in your arse.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:05 PM

Wavy has no meat to speak of and no women speak of it of course.

Its unkind to speak of male cranks
In the presence of young David Franks
His tiny tool is so small
Women laugh til they fall
And to offers of sex say, "NO THANKS!"


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Don - where does the Bible mention fleas, please?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM

Exodus 8:16-19
Psalm 105:31

As any fule kno.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM

It's a JOKE, David!!

SHEESH!!

But think about it: do you think you could run around naked in a primitive garden with nothing on but a fig leaf and not pick up a few fleas?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

I know I did..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

where does the Bible mention fleas, please?

Check it out : Flea in the Bible.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM

Don & IB - We just fell, for his little attention-seeking ploy, didn't we?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

Liking your singing is a universal NO WAV.

There are some kind people who perhaps pretend to like it.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:18 PM

Hey, c'mon, this is getting a bit ridiculous—not that it has ever come close to being anything but.

Under the assumption that David is sincerely interested in folk music and isn't just a troll, and that despite the silliness of some of his assertions about who should be allowed to go where and why, and who should be allowed to sing what and how they should be allowed to sing it, I will put on my genuinely serious face and make one more attempt to bring order out of chaos.

Okay, David, listen up.

If you are truly interested in folk music and you enjoy it and you want to perform it, that's great. I'd say more power to you. Keep at it.

But—if you want to perform for other people, unless you are content just to drop in on folk clubs and merely be tolerated out of politeness by the other people there, and especially if you have ambitions of performing the songs you sing for a wider public, then you owe it to them, at the very least, to learn some basic skills, one of which is to sing in key and on pitch.

Playing a line on the recorder and trying it duplicate the pitches with your voice is better than nothing. But it would be better if you were to play the line and try to sing it at the same time. You can't do it with the recorder, obviously, but you say you play keyboard? Okay, you should be able to do it with that. So do it.

And your idea of not accompanying English folk songs with chords as you sing is counter-productive. When you are learning a song, once you have the tune in your ear (by repeatedly playing the melody line), sing it while playing the appropriate chords. This doesn't have to be a fancy accompaniment, just "block chords" will do. If you wander off-pitch, the clash between your voice and the chords will let you know. Once you know the tune solidly and can sing it without wandering off-pitch, then try singing the song without accompaniment.

If you have a cassette recorder, or, preferably, a small digital recorder (which, I presume you do have, since you've posted recordings on MySpace), record your singing, then play it back and listen to it carefully with a critical ear. Do this as a regular part of your practice (I mean, you do practice, don't you!?). Once you think what you hear when you play it back is just fine, then have someone else listen to it; someone whom you can trust to give you an honest evaluation—even if it hurts.

I'm not suggesting that you take voice lessons, although this would be the best approach, because good singing teachers are expensive, and I assume that if you are unemployed, you couldn't afford lessons. But—do you attend a church? If so, talk to the choir director. My local Lutheran church has a superb choir director, and he conducts free classes (in addition to regular choir rehearsals) one evening a week for choir members and anyone else who wishes to attend. In any case, you could ask the choir director to listen to you sing and give you an evaluation and make some suggestions. Perhaps you might even volunteer or audition to sing in your church choir. If accepted, this is a good way to get a bit of free vocal coaching and do some solid practice singing a variety of songs under fairly stringent conditions (not wanting to draw glares from the director or your fellow choir members).

And as I tell people (particularly singers of folk songs) who are nervous about taking singing lessons, or getting any kind of vocal coaching, all a voice teacher can do is teach someone correct vocal technique (how to use breath support, to sing without damaging their voice, to project, and help develop their ear so they can sing on pitch—unless they are just hopelessly tone-deaf). Taking singing lessons or coaching will not make you sound like an opera singer. Believe me, there are lots of young singers out there aspiring to sing opera who wish it was that easy; that all they had to do was take a few lessons and, voila! next stop, Covent Garden or The Met. Ain't gonna happen!!

One well-known singer of folk songs said the following:

"The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."

So don't think that because you want to sing folk songs, you don't have to at least try to sing well. The source singers, from whom these songs come—even if they don't have very good singing voices—at least try to sing as well as they are able.

Show them some respect by doing the same.

And as to the manner in which the songs should be sung, regarding matters of interpretation, vocal mannerisms, accents and such, another fine singer of folk songs said this:

"The most ticklish question still results from that awful word 'Folk Music,' which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to 'Western Pop' music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.

"Most of us agree in feeling as to our general boundaries, but more and more we search for our own particular contributions as musicians within these variegated provinces. There doesn't seem to be much point in imitating. What, after all, is the point of doing Little Moses exactly like the Carter Family? Yet it seems vital to convey the massive, punching instrumentals and the tense driving, almost hypnotic voice of the Carter Family performances.

"On the one hand, there is the danger of becoming a musical stamp collector. On the other, there is the equal danger of leaving behind the language, texture, and rhythm that made the music worthy of our devotion in the first place. So we have arrived at a point where in each case we try to determine those elements which make a particular piece of music meaningful to us, and to build the performance through these elements. By continuing to learn everything possible of the art form—techniques, textures, rhythms, cultural implications and conventions, we hope to mature constantly in our individual understanding and creativity in this music."

Read these two quotes carefully and think about them.

The first quote comes from a singer who was born in England and was a descendant of the peerage. He was educated in England, in Germany (prior to World War II, where he first developed an interest in singing folk songs), in Canada, and in the United States. He learned some of his first songs from fellow students in Germany, and early in his career was greatly inspired by Swedish lute-singer Sven Scholander to follow the tradition of the ancient minstrels. His singing attracted the attention of impresario Sol Hurok, and he has sung at both Carnegie Hall and Town Hall in New York, and regularly sang some fifty concerts a year during his active career, along with club appearances and American School Assemblies programs. He has many, many records out under various labels , including a dozen under his own label.   He had a repertoire of over seven hundred songs, mainly from the British Isles and the United States, but also from Germany and France.

The second quote comes from an immigrant to the United States. He was a German Jew who escaped from Germany when he was a teen-ager, just prior to or during World War II. He became interested in singing folk songs and taught himself to play the guitar. He was particularly interested in American blues, but eventually sang songs from a wide variety of sources, including the Appalachian Mountains, the Caribbean, and the British Isles. He was also a fine flamenco guitarist, and occasionally played for Spanish dancers. He was one of the finest, most subtly creative musicians and singers of folk songs I have ever met. Think of it, David:   a German Jew who sang American blues and played flamenco! And did both very well indeed!

The first quote is from Richard Dyer-Bennet. The second from Rolf Cahn (on the left, with guitar and kazoo, playing a bit of jug band music with Jim Kweskin and Debbie Green).

It's good that you want to honor your own culture. But—what "your own culture" actually is seems to be a bit ambivalent at this point. And your understanding of what English culture amounts to is severely limited and greatly flawed. Even I, an American, can see that. I don't think you have lived in England long enough to really know what English culture truly is, beyond your limited preconceived notions.

And as far as folk music is concerned, you've only been at it for four years. You are a neophyte. A beginner. Rather than trying to tell people who have been involved in folk music for many years, and some for many decades, how they should be doing it, you should be listening to what they have to say, learning from them, and thinking about it. You do have a great deal to learn. Far too much for you to be trying to tell others what they should or should not be doing.

Download these pages and print them out. It is a PDF file containing seven pages altogether, three pages of vocal exercises and four pages of instructions. I use them myself and they help keep my voice in good shape. Follow the instructions and practice them.

Vocal Exercises.

And again, record them as you practice them, then listen to them carefully. Keep the recordings so you can compare them and check your progress.

Go. And sin no more.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

Admirably put Don. My hat is off and the remains of my forelock is duly tugged. You have a level of tolerance, restraint, patience and wisdom that I do not possess.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:11 AM

Hear Hear.

A well written piece that anyone who sings could learn from. This is a well considered post, researched and linked to valid sites. Please recognize that this is an attempt to help a learner: no petulance; no 'getting one over'; Please read it WAV. You don't get such good advice often in your life.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:41 AM

From fleas in the Bible, thanks IB, to...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 116 of 230: MOSES GATE - SUMMER 2000

Bordering Bolton
    Lies land with lodges -
Grassed and paved around,
    With decking built on.

As well as these lakes
    Of human-made kind,
Croal, Irwell, canal
    Meet there like three snakes.

There's 'paths for horses,
    A birdwatching hut,
An info. centre,
    Plus walkers' courses.

And, surrounding these,
    The woods have grown thick,
So, viewed from afar,
    Form a sight to please.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:35 AM

You've got to start writing poetry again - this stuff is valueless. I mean priceless.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

That first verse should be in a textbook as an example of the very worst attempt at poetry one could ever dream.

Your poetry sucks Franks, just like your Mommy........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

And that's IT from you, David? No comment? Just another one of your "poems?"

Well, okay. I tried.

I don't know why I bother, but I just went to David's MySpace site and, once again, listened to the songs he posted (how's that for masochistic!??) and came to the conclusion that he simply doesn't have the ear and / or the discrimination to judge his own singing and playing. He obviously doesn't have a clue about just how painful listening to him really is! If he had, he would never have put his efforts up on MySpace for all the world to hear. And writhe at!

He must be unembarrassable.

Well, no. That's not right either. He just doesn't know!

If others found what I posted above to be of value, then it was worth doing. I'm particularly fond of those two quotes. They pretty much delineate my approach to folk singing.

Thanks, guys!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Gawd...devastatingly memorable verse there, WAV. That should shut them up for a bit, right? ;-)

But will Don Firth be able to resist another in-depth attempt to reach your soul with a sincere and serious 1000-word essay and get you to see the light? That is the question. I'm on tenterhooks here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 03:52 PM

Don (and LH - with his mind off Winona!) - "And that's IT from you, David? No comment?"...for what it's worth, I read every word, as usual, and agree with some, as usual. E.g., if I stuck to playing just the tunes for the rest of my days, as a folkie that would NOT be a bad thing, because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries. Also, I think your drills would do some good but (with my limited time and, yes, capabilities) I'm better playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...because that also aids me with committing the tunes to memory - another strong aspect of our tradition...agreed?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM

". . . because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries."

Really? Where did you get that idea?

"- another strong aspect of our tradition...agreed?"

Well, yes, I guess one could say that committing the tune to memory before trying to sing a song is kind of "traditional," yes. I believe that is what most people actually do. Kind of basic, really.

####

No, I don't think so, Little Hawk. I've spent far too much time already on what is obviously a lost cause. I've wasted too much time and too many words on David.

Back to working on my book, setting up my home recording studio, and practicing.

There are a couple of people around here who already have the equipment and want to record me, but I'd rather do it in my own time and in my own way. I will, of course, follow my own advice, and when I've recorded enough songs for a CD, I will have others, whose opinions I can trust to tell me the brutal truth if necessary, listen to what I record before I start burning CDs and/or posting stuff on sites like MySpace. I like Paul Burke's fable (above, at 29 Oct 08 - 08:49 a.m.) about Kieran and the leprechaun. I've been told that I'm hypercritical of my own performances, but I'd rather be that way than to put something out that that reeks.

I think this will be far better use of my time than trying to convince some half-wit that standing in the middle of the room wearing Groucho glasses and a lampshade on his head and farting bird calls is not really what one might call "high-class entertainment. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

"standing in the middle of the room wearing Groucho glasses and a lampshade on his head and farting bird calls is not really what one might call "high-class entertainment. . . ."

Surely it's all relative, Don....?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 PM

Yeah. After all, if Shane were to do that among a group of his...peers...I'm sure it would draw raucous and enthusiastic applause.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:29 PM

None of my relatives, Smokey. (Well . . . there is my drinking uncle, of course. . . .)

Yeah, Little Hawk, it must be all in the delivery.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:13 PM

Well, and the audience...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

What I'm waiting for is some new poetry - if he found himself a girlfriend we may be blessed with a few sonnets.. imagine that..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM

"Brace y'self Skippy!"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:26 PM

The boy stood on the burning deck;
He wished he'd never been born.
His father told him he wouldn't have been
If the condom hadn't torn!
                                       —BurmaShave?
                                          (probably not. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:59 PM

This is the first time I've looked at this thread. To quote John from Hull, "Waht's this all about?" Looks like the principle objective is to harangue some poor, delusory, masochistic, low talent schmuck. Am I warm?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM

It's an old English tradition, BWL.
Immigrants have to be assimilated, and this is how we do it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:21 PM

That's one possible interpretation.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:25 PM

Thaks, Smokey. We have a similar tradition of assimilating newcomers in the US deep south, only our tradition involves a banjo, a tree stump, a jar of Vaseline, and squeelin' like a pig.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:30 PM

You need to be here on a Thursday for that :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:31 AM

". . . because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries." (me)...Really? Where did you get that idea?" (Don)...short memory - you WERE involved in the "Chords in Folk?" thread.
And some advice for you Don - even my strongest critics have said that my recording quality is acceptable, and it was done on an old second-hand computer, with freely-downloadable software, and an inexpensive mic...so why don't you pull your critical finger out and finally give recording a go? I, for one, certainly will give them a listen - even though my favourite/Top Friend American music remains the chants, drums, and flauting of Amerindians.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:52 AM

If the recording sounds like you sound, then the recording quality is acceptable. If you sound how the recording sounds then the singing is suspect.

When you have any credentials in music you may criticize others; I look forward to hearing Don's recordings in the expectation that I will enjoy them and probably learn from them.

I am sure however that if I were to offer suggestions as to how his performance could be improved he would listen to the comments carefully. If they had validity he would I'm sure accept the comments in the spirit offered. If not he would say why not.

You are in no position to offer anyone musical advice WAV. Really.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:04 AM

The RECORDING quality is acceptable, but that just means that there are no splutters, coughs, scratches, hisses and glitches, apart from the actual singing.


Why don't you want to learn how to sing well? That is not inconsistent with singing in an 'earthy timbre' as you like to put it.

Don's advice about singing with church choirs is very helpful, it's helped me a bit. Plus, it's traditional. I woudln't be surprised to learn that many of the trad singers got their start through singing in church.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM

Here's a quote from a review of one of Don's concerts:

'One song struck me in its beauty of form and execution: a simple, sad Scottish ballad of longing sung by Don without accompaniment. His great voice rose and rumbled up in mourning to haunt the rafters of that fragile church with the memory of a love now centuries dead; the beauty of the ballad and of his steady voice struck me with a kind of pure sadness that is all but impossible to find in modern music- for a moment I felt as if I, too, were wandering the hills and valleys of Scotland singing a hopeless plea for companionship. I had always liked folk music, but never really pursued it- after seeing Bob Nelson and Don Firth perform, I have no choice but to seek it out whenever possible.'

When you get one review approaching that WAV I will take you seriously.

Listen to the voice(s) of experience.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM

As I said before, Don Firth is a treasure and we're blessed to have him with us at the 'Cat.

Years of hard work but years of loving it. Years of practice while enjoying every moment. Years of listening to and assimilating the thoughts of others. All that combines with true passion and above all an homage to the reality of each song, treating each with the respect it deserves so that honesty shines through...........All of this comes together to get reviews like that.

And you Wav? Please.......Don't even try to defend your lame positions. Try taking the advice and say thanks.

Otherwise have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:59 AM

I'm with BWL, I don't check this thread out often. I don't remember if I posted at the very beginning, but since I don't want to join MySpace to listen or read, I've skipped out on this dubious pleasure.

I look forward to hearing Don's recordings in the expectation that I will enjoy them and probably learn from them.

You got that right, s&r! I count myself lucky that when I was growing up I got to hear him many times. I wish I was still there in the PNW--I'd go to all of the concerts with Don and/or Bob.

SRS

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM

Kinell, WAV, your singing is worse than your fucking poetry!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:04 AM

I haven't even listened to any of WAV's singing yet. I feel it is a bit of a coup on his part that so many of you have. The man is getting exposure. His efforts are bearing fruit. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM

LH listen even if you keep it secret. It's so bad it's almost an art form. It should be part of every condemned prisoners required listening. No scratch that - it would have to be a bad crime - really bad

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:20 PM

I'm getting curious now...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:03 PM

You are right, it is a coup, Wav could be languishing in obscurity, but now we KNOW his singing is lousy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Nick
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

I enjoyed your post Don.

The thread obviously satisfies some sort of need for all participants. The thickness of WAVs skin is inversely proportional to his talent so this is an ideal spot for a perfectly consensual S&M relationship to ensue. Of course you'll all be aware where the power resides in such a relationship.

I think I'll pop back in 1000 posts or so.

Any chance this could be summarised into a weekly digest?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:15 PM

What I'm looking forward to is the day when it begins to spinoff into a number of related threads...like the Mary Tyler Moore show spawning "Rhoda" and "Lou Grant" and various other series.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:36 PM

Don - I just read your (above) review.. Record you must, with all your heart. Do it now, or I will send you to Matron for a thrashing and an enema. And can I hear it please? (the recording, that is.)

If nothing else, WaV provides a good reliable bench-mark by which to judge one's own efforts.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:45 PM

All in due time, Smokey, all in due time. After all, we wouldn't want the project to be a complete wash-out, now would we?

What the Immortal Bard has to say on the subject of singing, from As You Like It, Act II, scene 3:

An he had been a dog that should have howled thus, they would have hanged him: and I pray God his bad voice bode no mischief. I had as lief have heard the night-raven, come what plague could have come after it.

And Act V, scene 3:

Shall we clap into't roundly, without hawking or spitting or saying we are hoarse, which are the only prologues to a bad voice?

Could anyone or anything be the very epitome of English culture other than William Shakespeare himself? He obviously had a great deal of insight and musical taste, not to mention quite a way with words.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:10 PM

Ah yes Don, but Shakespeare didn't have that knack for simplicity or the keen observatiional skills of our learned friend. I wonder if he could play the recorder? Nah - not clever enough.

Try not to procrastinate over the recording Don, that's one of my (many) faults, and being a being a bombastic opinionated old git, people are reticent to give me the required kick up the arse. Just do it - there's nothing to lose - at the very worst you'll learn stuff that you can't learn any other way.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:33 PM

Sorry Don - it's really none of my business.. I do hope it goes well though. If I may offer one tip, it would be to try not listen to what you've recorded immediately after you've done it; give it a couple of days if you possibly can, if not more. Counter-intuitive, I know, but well worth it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:13 PM

Yeah, Smokey, same as writing. Once you've finished a piece, it's a good idea to let it sit for a couple of days before reading it for possible editing. Gives you a little perspective.

By the way, I'm always a little nervous about dropping my pants around Matron. She tends to get excited. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM

Well, she's only human I suppose..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:08 AM

"I wonder if he (Shakespeare) could play the recorder?" (Smokey)..I do too - he certainly mentioned it several times in, e.g., Hamlet...?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:17 AM

Gee, that'd be another thing Shakespeare was far superior at than you Wavydickless. Follow my advice and go stare into a mirror and say, "I am a racist bigot with no talent and my Mummy blows hogs."

The truth shall set you free.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

He also mentions Murder, usury, under age sex, sailing, fairies, asses, so that means he probably indulged in those...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:25 PM

Why the constant use of, e.g.? As part of your repatriation efforts you should learn how to use English properly.

So Shakespeare mentioned the recorder once or twice, certainly not as often as he mentioned other instruments (no e.g.'s, sorry). No reason at all to suppose that he did. If Shakespear played anything, I suspect it would have been some string instrument so he could serenade girls. Bill was far too busy to take up music seriously, running a show and writing takes up all your time!!
As for little organ, it is not certain that he meant the recorder, merely some small instrument (organ meaning instrument, not the pipe-monstrosity in cathedrals).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM

I heard somewhere that Shakespeare messed around with the lute a bit, but he was no John Dowland.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

Wavydorkusbigot,

Follow my advice and go stare into a mirror and say, "I am a racist bigot with no talent and my Mummy blows hogs."


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM

My last "e.g.", e.g., Volgadon, was because the poem that followed was an example of my previously posted point, NOT sent by the seaside.

And where for art thou, crude Catspaw...spitting feathers in your kitty litter?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM

Don, I'm sure he messed around with it a bit in order to, ahem, mess around with something else a bit.

Wav, your English is execrable.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM

where for art thou, crude Catspaw
It's 'wherefore', you wuckfit, and it means 'why', not 'where'. I wouldn't expect some scrounging parasite of an economic migrant to know that, of course.

Got a proper job yet, you workshy layabout?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:11 PM

Wherefore means "where", thou pathetic, maundering, chuckle-headed son of a witless haberdasher's apprentice. Take thy mewling utterances elsewhere, thou vile poltroon. Away with thee!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:34 PM

Bollocks does it!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:19 PM

where•fore    adverb
Etymology:   Middle English wherfor, wherfore, from where, wher + for, fore for – 13th century.
def:   For what reason or purpose. Why.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

I read every word, as usual, and agree with some, as usual.

Some of it confirmed David's preconceptions, in other words, and some of it didn't.

There's an apocryphal story about the burning of the Library at Alexandria, one of the great lost treasures of the ancient world. Supposedly the Caliph whose forces had taken the city ordered the burning of the library, on the grounds that it contained teachings contrary to the Koran. One of the caliph's subordinates tried to reason with him, arguing that not all of the literature in the library was sinful - some of it had messages that you could also find in the Koran. So? said the Caliph - if it's just the same as the Koran, we don't need to keep it. And into the flames it went.

When someone who's been performing in front of a paying public since before you were born not only tells you you need to work on your singing but tells you how, it strikes me that you don't "agree with some" (and then try to lecture him about recording). You pay attention, and consider very carefully the possibility that everything you're being told might be worth listening to. Don, you have the patience of a saint - and I hope you find something better to do with it than trying to communicate with a tone-deaf twit. Thanks for posting the exercises, by the way.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:46 PM

"I heard somewhere that Shakespeare messed around with the lute a bit"

The filthy traitor! That's Southerners for you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM

You people obviously need to hear more poetry. It soothes the savage beast.

Ahem!

A Chinese bricklayer named Fong
Had a "tool" so incredibly long
A professor named Blake
Mistook it for a snake
Now it's in a glass case in Hong Kong

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM

Wavydorkusbigot,

Follow my advice and go stare into a mirror and say, "I am a racist bigot with no talent and my Mummy blows hogs."


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:25 PM

WaV:

You seek to deprive people of the opportunity to emigrate in order to improve their lives.

You seek to deprive people of the right to play the music of their choice, where they choose.

You do both.

You are a hypocrite.

You aren't dangerous, you're just a very naughty boy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:25 AM

So what, Smokey? He is in no position to have any influence on the UK's immigration laws, so who cares? He CAN'T deprive anyone of their choice, he has no power to. Can't you live knowing that there are a few powerless people out there who don't agree with you on things like that? I predict that all your moral outrage here is going to have utterly no effect whatsoever on changing WAV or remaking him into someone you approve of, so what are you persisting in it for? Does it make you feel great finding someone you can feel so morally superior to? I know that it gives most people a real thrill when they do that...it's so much fun and so self-affirming. ;-) But this whole scenario here strikes me more and more each day like some sort of tacky emotional addiction that a group of people are coming here for day after day. Each day you all return for your fix of superiority to WAV.

Me, I just come here because its so darn funny watching you all do the Pavlov's dog routine over and over again. If WAV is indeed a troll, then he has found a reactive goldmine here that is 42 carat pure.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:53 AM

You're not wrong LH, twaddle like that is never going to influence anybody, but I have no moral outrage, as such. Nor do I particularly consider myself morally superior, but you'll have to trust me on that. To be honest, WaV brings out a side of me that I don't like much, but it needs some exercise every so often. It's a bit like driving past a gruesome road accident and not being able to resist looking, perhaps. On the other hand, I have found there are people on this forum whose wisdom I appreciate, and whose company I'm honoured to be in. I've learnt stuff by being here - I wish everyone could.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:42 AM

Okay, fair enough, I guess. I'll trust you on that. I think people are giving WAV's opinions (whatever they may be) far more importance than is really appropriate, that's all. This thread is not a big deal.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:38 AM

Smokey has it about right Hawkster. For me its a pleasant diversion while the forum is in poli-sci mode. About Wavy I couldn't give a shit less. As soon as the election bullshit passes I'll be outta' here and leave him for others but right now, its been great fun abusing young David Franks.

Don't get me wrong, I truly do believe he's a racist, bigot, and no talent doofus, but I don't care enough to get past that much. So until the election passes by....................

Wavydorkusbigot,

Follow my advice and go stare into a mirror and say, "I am a racist bigot with no talent and my Mummy blows hogs."


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:27 AM

"As soon as the election bullshit passes I'll be outta' here and leave him for others but right now, its been great fun abusing young David Franks." (Spaw)!!!!!...for what it's worth, from what I can gather, Obama is far closer to the WAV way and I hope he wins.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:28 AM

It's just a shame Obama has abandoned his Kenyan roots - after all, when people lose their culture society suffers...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:42 AM

Is he closer to the Wav way? I thought Obama is supposed to be pretty soft on immigration.

"You're not wrong LH, twaddle like that is never going to influence anybody"

Not so sure about that. Somebody must have influenced Wav.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

I haven't heard much about Obama's stance on immigration, but on other areas he seems to be a regulationist who questions capitalism - much more than McCain. And, while here on Mudcat immigration is the factor that I get asked about the most, I've also questioned capitalism, monarchism, and other aspects of our status quo, in my life's work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

I wish I could show you MY life's work, but it has to wait until completion when the unveiling occurs.

What it will be is the world's largest free-standing statue of William Shatner, clad in a speedo, and brandishing a hot branding iron. I have labored at building this monument for over 40 years now and I hope to complete it before my death.

If I should pass away prematurely, however, the staff at the WSSBA will carry on until the work is done.

This will be my legacy. My testament. My gift to the World.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM

#6 Sweet Dreams

Last night I had the strangest dream, I do not lie, e.g.,
Whilst my English helix a-watering,
All immigrants took up the battle-cry-
FROM NOW ON, e.g., and moved back home,
To practise their Own Good Culture
And leave my Morris to such as I.

I do not dance it, myself,
But others should,
For when lost is culture good,
Society surely suffereth.

And, further, in my dream,
My very own Good English Dream,
Mr. Carthy, Martin, sending his guitar to Spain,
An English Cittern did accquire,
Musicians, followed suit, never did they tire,
To Greece bouzoukis went, a significant cultural gain,
And little organs sounded on England's Fair and Pleasent Green,
Again.

"Our roast is our boast; not foreign curree,"
Said our Own Good English delegate, echoing me.
Against capitalist migration, the UN did decree,
Which prospect filled my own good self with glee.

'Multiculturalism is fallen, is fallen, is fallen,'
The bells (all closely associated with England) did toll,
'Multiculturalism is fallen, to rise no more.'
Women gave up tennis, put the kettle on,
For tea, naturally,
And none cared for to sing in harmonee.

I woke up,
Much the sadder,
   On pottage did sup,
Then my heart turned gladder,
                  For I now knew,
                   That the way forward,
                              For humanity,
                                 Nothing could stop.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM

Wow. Impressive. The spirit of William McGonagall has not died yet, I see. It lives on. Bravo!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:27 PM

Volgadon:
"'You're not wrong LH, twaddle like that is never going to influence anybody'
Not so sure about that. Somebody must have influenced Wav."

Perhaps so, just maybe, but if that's the extent of their influence I don't think we need lose any sleep.. fools can be led, without doubt, but how many folkies are that stupid?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

Ha! Well, only a few, in my experience. Not enough to raise any major concern.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:47 PM

Your life's work?
Blimey, it's not much of a life, eh.
Do us all a favour and get another one. Take up jazz and annoy the tits off a whole new bunch of people.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:28 PM

I've also questioned capitalism, monarchism, and other aspects of our status quo, in my life's work.

Further examples of your resolute refusal to assimilate into Our Own Good English Culture. Such preconceptions and prejudices are an obstacle to your repatriation - hardly the wonder it isn't going well, Wavy.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:59 PM

In MY life's work I have implicitly questioned the judgement of misguided people like Gervase.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 04:27 PM

My life's work isn't done yet. And I can't say I've heard the question!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

"I have found there are people on this forum whose wisdom I appreciate, and whose company I'm honoured to be in. I've learnt stuff by being here. . . ."

Smokey got that right! One of the undoubtedly unintended benefits of someone like David blurting the kind of blather he does is the, rather that calling out the local bullies to savage the village idiot (as one or two people here seem to think as they gaze down from their lofty positions on high), it often stimulates very interesting and informative discussions by way of knowledgeable people stepping in to refute the nonsense. These little broo-ha-has tend to stimulate a good exchange of ideas, they often cause us to re-examine some of our own assumptions, and everyone winds up learning.

Except, generally, for the stumblebum who uttered the claptrap in the first place and insists on digging his heels in despite the tsunami of good information from which he could learn.

In addition, I have met some people here on-line who seem like really interesting and knowledgeable folks (it helps to get to know someone if they are vigorously expressing their beliefs and opinions), and I hope to encounter them again on other threads.

So for those who like to feel superior and sit back and go "Tsk tsk," I'd say open your eyes (and minds) and take another look.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 05:43 PM

Everyone likes to feel superior, and they all have their own particular ways of doing so, Don, some more nasty than others. But most of them just won't own up to it.

As for benefiting from the wisdom of others, I find that much more satisfying in 3-D than online. Things are too ephemeral online, and you never know for sure what you're dealing with. I'd rather sit down in a song circle and admire someone else's musicianship firsthand and see and hear what they do than talk about it over a computer keyboard.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:54 PM

"Everyone likes to feel superior. . . ." Really? Isn't that a rather broad generalization? I've met people like that, but I tend to find that people who like to feel that things are (and should be) equitable are generally a lot more pleasant to be around.

I've also noticed (sound psychology, in fact) that people tend to endow others with their own predilictions.

I hate to say it, but it looks like you're feeling superior again, Little Hawk. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:04 PM

. . . and information, and manifestations of wisdom, can come from many different sources. I don't see that information acquired on-line is any more ephemeral than information acquired any other way. One should, of course, verify, in either case.

I enjoy discussing things on-line with knowledgeable people. And I most certainly enjoy getting together with friends, talking, swapping songs. . . .

Two different things. Apples and oranges.

I'm not talking about "either-or." I'm talking about "and."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:20 PM

"I hate to say it, but it looks like you're feeling superior again, Little Hawk. . . ."

Yeah. I am. ;-) I did say "everyone", didn't I, Don? That obviously includes me. But I own up to it, and I laugh at all of us...myself included.

We all argue and debate as we go through life...sometimes about fairly substantial things, usually about very trivial things. The moment we start doing it, our egos become engaged. Our every response is an attempt to assert some kind of ego dominance over the other person's last response. And on and on and on it goes. This thread is one of the most egregious examples of that petty process spinning itself out over and over again.

And what does it all come down to?

"You're an asshole."

"No, I'm not."

"Yes, you are, and what you just said proves it."

"No, it doesn't."

"Oh, but it does. I am a highly respected folksinger and all my friends adore me and they all say you're an asshole too, so it's obviously true."

"No, it isn't, because you didn't understand me that last time."

"Oh, yes I did. We all understood you. But you don't understand yourself, because you're an asshole."

And so on, and so on.

And now you're telling me that I'm feeling superior? Well, yeah! Of course I am. I like me better than I do the guy I'm arguing with. In that respect I'm exactly like everyone else here. We're ALL assholes at times!!!!

And when we are we go...   Bla. Bla. Bla.

But it's fun to do that, right? And it's just too irrestistible not to try one more time to get in the last telling word that PROVES the other guy is wrong, right?

Prove me wrong by never posting to this silly damn thread again, Don.

Surprise me. Prove you're not driven by your little preening ego the way I and every else here is driven by our little preening ego. Prove that YOU are better than that.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:18 PM

Dear oh dear.. do I have to call Matron?

My theory is that we all have an 'inner twat' - an element overlooked by conventional transactional analysis. WaV is a classic example of someone simply not in tune with, and unaware of, his inner twat.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

LH - You were originally talking about 'moral superiority', and now you're not - there are many ways to feel superior, and sometimes it just can't be helped. Some of us don't like feeling superior just for the sake of it, but to be able to bestow a bit of knowledge or wisdom to someone can be no different to giving a gift. Naturally, the motivation can vary, but it's cynical to assume everyone's is as you describe. Having said that, as a Northern English certified curmudgeon, it's my patriotic duty to admire your cynicism ;-)

Don - When are you emigrating to England?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM

With all due respect, Little Hawk, you're doing it again. Aloof, superior, above-it-all, and judgmental. You do that quite a bit when, apparently, a discussion gets a bit too heated for your taste. Some threads operate of a couple of different levels. You are seeing only the surface and you are missing what really matters.

I have long since given up on David. My interest here is the discussion with the other folks, to read what they have to say, and to express what I have to say. I will quit when I am ready and I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else.

Little Hawk, I like you. You are an intelligent, generally well-informed person (albeit one who has some erroneous preconceptions about American politics that you tend to reiterate in every political discussion), and in general, I enjoy your posts.

But—(and you knew there was a "but," of course) there are times when you can get outrageously pompous, and this is one of those times.

Sorry.

Don Firth

P. S. I will probably not be back tonight. I am following the election returns.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:26 AM

. . . and information, and manifestations of wisdom, can come from many different sources. I don't see that information acquired on-line is any more ephemeral than information acquired any other way. One should, of course, verify, in either case.

I enjoy discussing things on-line with knowledgeable people. And I most certainly enjoy getting together with friends, talking, swapping songs. . . .

Two different things. Apples and oranges.

I'm not talking about "either-or." I'm talking about "and."

Don Firth

Don't see how internet forums like this are substantially different from the great minds of the 18th century corresponding by letter with each other. Of course it's faster.
Excellent post Don and I quite agree with you. Wav has provided great learning opportunities, it's just a shame that he himself refuses to learn. For the miles of screen space he wasted on braggin about his BA in humaities, his attitude of refusing to learn shows what a waste of time his schooling was.
After these threads, I would definitely look you up were I in the Northwest USA, or go to a show.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

"Don't see how internet forums like this are substantially different from the great minds of the 18th century corresponding by letter with each other"

The very great difference is that it's not the great minds of the 21st Century corresponding, but ordinary people.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

"Against capitalist migration, the UN did decree," (Brother)...and, whilst congratulating the new leader of one of the nations within our UN, Barack Obama, we should remember/realize that the head of the United Nations, since 01.01.2007, is Ban Ki-moon.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:35 PM

And how would that be different from ordinary people talking in person?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

Anyone else get the impression that this WankaboutsVerse is getting in the way of an interesting thread?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 03:37 AM

Stigweard: as an "ordinary" - if well travelled and trained - person I maintain walkaboutsverse.741.com is a good way forward for humanity, hence I'm here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 05:18 AM

Here's a question for you, Wavy - how can it be a good way forward for humanity when humanity has rejected it wholesale as the heap of racist shit it most surely is?

Mind you, it makes about as much sense as The Book of Mormon, so maybe in time, the Book of Walkaboutsverse will acquire a similar status & mindless following - people are daft enough after all. But not this person, Wavy - so if it's not a good way forward for me, then how can it be a good way forward for humanity?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM

"Stigweard: as an "ordinary" - if well travelled and trained - person I maintain walkaboutsverse.741.com is a good way forward for humanity, hence I'm here"

Get to fuck, wind-up boy!

"And how would that be different from ordinary people talking in person?"

A number of ways I reckon. Firstly, talking on the web enables us to express opinions we might not be so open about if we talking in person. This is a double-edges sword of course. In some ways it allows people to express themselves freely but on the other hand it also allows some rather more ugly opinions to be aired.

Secondly, it means we can talk to people from all over the world and get insights we never would have got. Mudcat has proved invaluable in this respect, and I can honestly say my opinions on some matters have changed considerably since getting an alternative view from people who were there.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 08:18 AM

WalkaboutsVerse ? what plonker, he really has lost touch with reality,
his inane drivel " a good way forward for humanity " my arse.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM

Eric, stop holding back. Let it go and tell it like it is!
This thread really should be called the Weakly Wank, given wor Davey's obsession with self-abuse.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM

Geeziz what a laugh!!!! Can anyone actually believe this crap? Why and how on earth could even someone having a soupcon of brains believe that a racist and doofus piece of shit like David Franks could offer a "good way" forward? How damned egocentric can you be to even have the gall to suggest it?

David, you are just pathetic. With your head so far up your ass it is impossible to see anything forward. You're just a dick.....a really tiny dick.....just a dick........not even a hard on.........I'm told the only time you have ever had an erection was watching a sheep being sheared.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

A first degree is merely moderate education. Your training is out of date. Without exception every poster on this thread demonstrates better education, training, insight, and understanding of any topic you opine about than you do

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 11:04 AM

Sorry, not sure about fork lift trucks

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM

Not sure about 'ordinary' either. Can I coin a word infraordinary to describe someone whose arrogance is without foundation in any meri?

STU

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:33 AM

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT

Poem 212 of 230: REMEMBER THEM?

Back when we became defenders
    (We have plainly been attackers),
Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -
A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway
And as we slipped as maintainers.


From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:19 AM

"blood sweat and years" is the first poetic phrase I have found in your work.

I just have a horrible feeling that it's a typo....

If not, well done.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:54 AM

WAV, I suggest you try 'repatriating'--that is, deleting-- all words in your verse that are not of Anglo-Saxon origin and not using those words again.

The point that the language you use is itself the product of centuries of cultural exchange and human movement would be immediately evident.

Language itself affirms that we are one species with a capacity to be enriched by borrowing from each other's cultures.

A lot of the unique expressiveness of English comes from its vast vocabulary. Song preceded language in human evolution; and music no less than language is enriched by assimilating new ingredients.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:22 AM

Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -
A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway

WWII wasn't fought to defend British (let alone English) culture. In fact, actual folk traditions suffered badly from the disruption of war, and might have been maintained better if we'd made peace with Germany. (There certainly wouldn't have been any American influence on British culture, and none of those multiculturalismsesss.) On the other hand, nobody's shown me that mass immigration has done anything to English culture other than enrich it.

So the reality is more like this:

Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to defeat Fascism, albeit at some cost to English traditional culture
Which, fortunately, lots more people are now interested in
    With the additional benefit that it's subsequently been enriched by the effects of mass immigration.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:26 AM

At least he's back - I was worried he'd done a bunk.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM

"Mass immigration"? The National Statistics Office shows that less than 8% of the population is from ethnic minorities. Net immigration is less than 1/4 million a year, out of a population of nearly 59 m.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM

More bilge from DF, alias WAV:

Back when we became defenders
    (We have plainly been attackers),
Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -
A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway
And as we slipped as maintainers.

"And we slipped as maintainers" is yet another example of your leaden ear and your complete lack of any poetic talent. I've also noticed your utterly pointless use of the hyphen. I could just about stomach a hyphen in the phrase "stealth-blown" - but why in God's name use one in "gained-sway", or "home-way" for that matter? It's idiotic. My guess is that you do it because you think it dignifies your words and makes it look Poetic with a capital P or Lyrical with a capital L.

As for the message in the so-called poem - and I suppose we have to be grateful that there is some visible message - it stinks. It implies that all the poor sods who died in wars were doing no more than protecting their culture, and that their efforts were undermined by stealthy, mass immigration.

What crap.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

This verse becomes particularly repugnant when you consider the number of people from countries occupied during the Empire who died fighting for a motherland they only knew as an oppressor.

Has to be said WAV, this sordid little stanza harbours some rather odious opinions.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

"And as we slipped as maintainers."

Should that have been 'mountaineers'?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

Hey, guys, cheer up! Obama won.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:28 PM

Did he? Crikey.. I wonder how he'll react to the rise of the English Nationalist Party?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM

If he's like most Americans, he won't even notice... ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:57 PM

HEY!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM

I say - you chaps out there in the colonies - less bickering please. We're supposed to be protecting my Good English Culture here..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:41 AM

Sorry. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:07 AM

"At least he's back - I was worried he'd done a bunk." (Stigweard)...The Alnwick Northumbrian Gathering, rather.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:04 AM

Time to get winding everyone up then!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:52 AM

"Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -
A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway"

Well, there it is: WAV's racism and xenophobia summed up tidily in four poorly-scanning lines. Can't say we're twisting your wirds with htis one, matey - hoist by your own racist petard.

Wavey, you still haven't told me who you think contributes more to English society: the immigrant doing several poorly-paid jobs to keep their family, or the "re-pat" who is content to collect the dole because he can't find a job in his chosen field, and won't take whatever work he can find? You also haven't explained why it's okay for you to choose to live in the region of Britain where you are least likely to find employment in your chosen field (just because you fancy living there), but other people who choose to move somewhere to actually find work and NOT be a burden on the state are the ones who are in the wrong...


+

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:56 AM

"...The Alnwick Northumbrian Gathering, rather."

Rather.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:08 AM

I bet they were chuffed to little mintballs to have their event graced by a racist, talentless, workshy ocker.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

STEALTH-BLOWN?

What the hell is that? LOL.....Geeziz, gimmee a break here...............ROTFLMAO........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM

I'm more and more puzzled by WAV's depiction of World War II as a defence of something called "a good home-way". In the real world, the war led directly to

- the disruption of centuries-old rural traditions of dance, song and ritual, some of which were only revived decades later while much was lost altogether
- a massive increase in the average Brit's exposure to American culture
- the decolonisation of the Empire, which in turn enabled former subjects of the Empire to move freely around the new Commonwealth, and in particular to come to Britain

If you define "English culture" as "English traditional culture as it was in the early part of the 20th century"*, then there's no two ways about it - the War was a disaster for English culture.

If Halifax had become Prime Minister and Britain had made peace with Germany, on the other hand, none of the things listed above would have happened. British traditions would not have been disrupted by the upheaval of war, and would have been encouraged and celebrated by a Fascist-sympathising government. There would have been no GIs in Britain, no Lend-Lease and no Americanisation of our own good British culture. The rulers of the great new Germano-British Empire wouldn't have dreamt of decolonisation, and its colonial subjects certainly wouldn't have been permitted to settle in the British homeland.

In short, World War II was fought for freedom, for democracy, for capitalism (in the West and Far East), for Communism (in Eastern Europe)... but definitely not for the preservation of English traditional culture. On the contrary, it promoted social mobility, the importation of American culture, racial equality and immigration. If WAV had been around at the time, I think he might have been happier on the other side - along with bucolic English dreamers like Henry Williamson and Rolf Gardiner.

*I don't.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 01:42 PM

Ruth/Joan Crump of the national Council - in the above poem I don't criticize immigrants of any particular background only, again, the act of mass/economic/capitalist immigration itself, so what you said, again, is false and defamatory; and you are also ignorant regarding industry/locatiion.

Catspaw - do you stand by your use of the term "whiteboy" on the Eng. Inst. thread, above the line?

Pip - please read the poem again, and this one...

Poem 76 of 230: LAND RIGHTS

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

In Africa, Asia,
    And the Pacific, too:
Post-war independence -
    Steps only bigots rue.

But for some indigenes,
    Outnumbered much-too-much,
It has all come too late
    For liberty, as such.

So 'tis in Australia,
    And America's sites,
Where the best now, I think,
    Is to respect land rights.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

Pip - please read the poem again

Since you've treated my comments with such lack of care and attention, I'm minded to tell you to bog off. But OK, here goes:

Back when we became defenders
    (We have plainly been attackers),
Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -

This is factually incorrect. As far as Britain is concerned, the war was fought against Fascism, for freedom and for democracy, but emphatically not for the preservation of traditional culture. English traditional culture was both massively eroded and massively changed by the war and its aftermath. It would have been much better preserved by peace with Nazi Germany. Obviously, I think the damage - and change, which isn't the same thing - to English traditional culture was a price worth paying for the defeat of Fascism. Do you?

A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway
And as we slipped as maintainers.

As far as I can see this is factually wrong as well - I'm not aware of any destructive change to English culture which was identifiably caused by immigration. But I'm willing to be enlightened: in what sense has the English 'way' been partially 'blown' as a result of 'mass immigration'? What, specifically, are you talking about?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:24 PM

in the above poem I don't criticize immigrants of any particular background only, again, the act of mass/economic/capitalist immigration itself, so what you said, again, is false and defamatory

Change the record. Get this into your head, if you can: you don't have to criticize immigrants of any particular background in order for your views to be racist.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines 'racism' as follows:

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities.

Unless you can show that that poem doesn't exhibit "prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being", Ruth's correct and you're the one who owes her an apology.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:42 PM

If there is a good thing
    From the Second World War
It's that most peoples learnt
    To conquer lands no more.

DID they, indeed? And how many wars have there been since the end of World War II?

Read up a bit on recent history, David. In fact, since you have a telly, you might even try watching the news.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

Were there any mudcatters at the Northumbrian Gathering? Did you win a prize?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:31 PM

I said "most" Don.
Pip - you and others have to accept that there is no such "prejudice" or "superior"/"inferior" ideas in the above poem, or any of the others in my collection, where I do, rather, on several occasions, question THE ACT OFIMMIGRATION ITELF; and, since I do watch the news/current affairs, I'll do so again in prose - did New Labour really fix the roof while the economic climate was good over the last few years, or did they, rather, allow a record amount of capitalist/economic immgiration through the door?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:09 PM

David, let me quote a verse from a hard-hitting song written by Eric Bogle, a Scotsman who emigrated to Australia (as I learned it from the singing of Ronnie Browne).

Contemplations while sitting by a gravestone in a World War I military cemetery in France.

I can't help but wonder, young Willie McBride,
Do those who lie here really know why they died?
Did they believe when they answered the call?
Did they really believe that this war would end wars?
The sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the shame;
The killing, the dying, were all done in vain,
For, young Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.

© Eric Bogle

Unfortunately, what Eric Bogle wrote is all too true.

"Most" is not enough.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

there is no such "prejudice" or "superior"/"inferior" ideas in the above poem

Don't be ridiculous. You quite clearly say that 'mass immigration' (by non-English people) has led to the partial loss of English culture. You go so far as to equate the defence of English culture against the influence of non-English immigrants with the defence of liberty against Fascism.

OED: "prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being"

The definition fits like a glove.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

Well Franks, so you really do believe that "capitalist/economic immigration" is to blame for the current economic predicament in which we find ourselves?
Your views are no different from those of the British National Party. And you have the temerity to claim you aren't a racist? Don't make me bloody bark, you ignorant fool.
Tell me, my little fascist, what are your views on the Jewish question?
Talking of which, there was rather a good programme about a poet on the radio this afternoon. Isaac Rosenberg - a "jewboy" whose parents were economic migrants. A good poet, too. In fact, a better poet on his worst day than you'll ever be on your best.
He wasn't a workshy scrounger who parasitised his adopted country, either. He needed to find a job to support his family, so he joined the Army. He served for three years and died for his country on the first of April, 1918, leaving behind some of the finest war poetry ever written.
Read it and weep, you bottom-feeding scumsucker. You wouldn't be fit to lick his boots.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

Exactly so, Pip! I'd say that ends that particular discussion.

Sorry, David. The verdict is in.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:19 PM

Spaw:

Stealth-blown is an Olde English custom that used to traditionally take place behind the bike sheds or on the back seat of a bus... isn't it?

Ruth Archer:

A round of applause!

WaV:

Whiteboy, if you really are as unemployable as you seem, try and find something useful to do with your time. I'm sure there are training courses for all sorts of things available. I believe there's also a book that may be of benefit too: "How to Make Friends and Influence People".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:19 PM

Ah, good! Now we can finally have the sentencing. Will it be hanging? Garroting? Death by Guillotine? Burning at the stake? Thrown into a pit of famished rats? Decisions, decisions. ;-)

And will the defendant launch an appeal? I'm betting he will. This may end up going all the way to the Supreme Court or even the World Court before it is done.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:07 PM

"Will it be hanging? Garroting? Death by Guillotine? Burning at the stake? Thrown into a pit of famished rats?"

Little Hawk, for shame! Have you no imagination? "Tsk tsk!" I say unto you. And furthermore, "Tsk!"

Nothing so crude!

My sentence would be that David find himself living in exactly the kind of world he says he wants.

Think about it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:17 PM

LOL! Well, I would wish that on the Republican Party's support base too, as long as the rest of us would not be required to share it with them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:24 PM

Wavey: anyone who works in a specialist field in the UK needs to be prepared to re-locate to where the work is. My ex-husband, a journalist, was compelled to do this several times, taking wife and child with him. I, too, have had to apply for jobs which take me away from my immediate locality, because of the nature of my profession.

Do you apply for jobs nationally? Are you prepared to re-locate to get yourself off the dole? And you still haven't explained how a "re-patriate" on the dole benefits the indigenous culture more than an immigrant who is paying his way.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:37 PM

Of course, in the good old days they'd have banished him to the colonies..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:05 PM

Isn't that where he returned from? Well, he could trade in his "English flute" for a didgeridoo.

Or would that be a didgeridon't?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:16 PM

A didgeridoo and two pounds of lard, perhaps.. and a stout length of rope to tie his kangaroo down with.

Is the correct plural didgeridee? Dare we ask him?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:21 PM

I dunno. He'll only refer us to a "poem" on his web site.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 10:30 PM

Its no wonder you're such a dumbass. Leaarn to read for comprehension and not speed. Here's the follow-up post for the third time....And in your case, Don't play that funky music Whiteboy!!!!
*************************************************************************************************************

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM

And Wavyracist......Just for your enlightenment since you obviously know fuck all about modern English OR world culture.........

H3>"Play That Funky Music" (also known as "Play That Funky Music, White Boy") is a funk rock song written by Robert Parissi and recorded by the rock band Wild Cherry. The song hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100 on September 18, 1976. It was also the basis of a top five U.S.A. hit for Vanilla Ice in 1990. The song also was #10 in the UK and is now listed at #73 on Billboard's Greatest Songs of all time."
The song was inspired by a black audience member who shouted, "Play some funky music, white boy" while they were playing at the 2001 Club. Lead singer Robert Parissi decided they should, and wrote down the phrase on a bar order pad. They later recorded it in Cleveland with a Disco sound. Although the band was concerned about the lyrics, Parissi insisted on keeping them.

Now I dunno' about # 73 all time but the phrase has certainly become part of our almost shared language. Here's another phrase brought about by an overwhelming majority opinion of folks on this thread and your other crapass threads as well...........


David Franks is a racist and a bigot.

Spaw

***********************************************************************************************


Now go off and practice fellatio on your recorder.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:59 AM

Wasn't he Italian?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 03:44 AM

I suppose more than one didgeridoo could be a didgeriduo. But don't play them in harmony.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 03:50 AM

Nah you're thinking of that Great British sea dog
Fellatio Nelson

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:03 AM

Unemployment is not equally distributed across the UK labour force. Age, qualifications, sex, ethnicity and location all have an impact on whether or not people become unemployed and on the length of time people spend out of work. In spring 2002 the North East had the highest unemployment rate of the English regions at 6.9 per cent, while the lowest rates were 3.5 per cent in the East and 3.6 per cent in the South West. Among the constituent countries of the United Kingdom, Scotland had the highest rate at 6.8 per cent, followed by Wales (6.1 per cent), Northern Ireland (5.6 per cent) and England (4.9 per cent).

Office of statistics

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:45 AM

Now Smokey has called also called me a "whiteboy" before adding "Of course, in the good old days they'd have banished him to the colonies..."...you seem to have about as much respect for Aborigines as Don. But, again, none of you have any seem to have any problem with that - just my questioning of THE ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF...
And do you think the record amount of economic/capitalist immigration under New Labour, during the good economic climate of the last few years, has helped with those just-above statistics, Stu?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:00 AM

The categories of immigration you quote aren't included in any statistics I can find. I merely checked on your assertion that Ruth was wrong. She was right.

I am an immigrant to Lancashire, which county has become my home, and whose natives have treated me as a welcome friend. I have taken part in the social structures of the area, and am proud to contribute (I think) positively.

I have no problem with immigrants. It's easy to point the finger when there are housing/employment/school problems, and attribute them to thecommon cause of immigration. It's sloppy thinking however. The labour force in a country is a resource that can be used to improve production, widen skill base, introduce new concepts. It doesn't matter where the people are from.

At different times in my life I have felt that immigration caused this otr that problem. I was wrong; I have grown up.

Sincerely

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:50 AM

"And do you think the record amount of economic/capitalist immigration under New Labour, during the good economic climate of the last few years, has helped with those just-above statistics, Stu?"

Well, your "re-patriation" certainly hasn't helped, has it? You also haven't responded yet to the following:

"Wavey: anyone who works in a specialist field in the UK needs to be prepared to re-locate to where the work is. My ex-husband, a journalist, was compelled to do this several times, taking wife and child with him. I, too, have had to apply for jobs which take me away from my immediate locality, because of the nature of my profession.

Do you apply for jobs nationally? Are you prepared to re-locate to get yourself off the dole? And you still haven't explained how a "re-patriate" on the dole benefits the indigenous culture more than an immigrant who is paying his way."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:21 AM

WAV - you define immigration (or if you prefer THE ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF) to exclude yourself.
Therefore, 'immigration' means 'the immmigration of people of foreign ancestry'.
Therefore, you feel English culture is threatened by the arrival in England of people of foreign ancestry.
Therefore, what you're expressing is precisely

"prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM

Nice, Pip; logical strings are always good to see.
WAV; Pip's post above is what academics refer to as 'reason'. He has concluded, using an authoritative source definition (the OED) and impeccable inductive logic that your expressed view of 'the act of immigration itself' is racist. You refuse to retract this view, indeed you promote it as part of your 'life's work' and 'a better way for humanity'. This recidivism therefore leads us to conclude that you are in fact an unapologetic racist. Using the same inductive logic, without resorting to unsubstantiated sources and unsupported opinion, can you argue otherwise? (Without referring to your utterly discredited websites). Take that as a challenge, WAV. I don't think you're up to it, myself.
I'd love to be able to make the logical connection that all racists are scum, but sadly that's just a personal opinion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM

And the word of the day is.........


Persiflage!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM

"...you seem to have about as much respect for Aborigines as Don."

And just where the hell did you get THAT, you weasel?

Never, at any time, have I ever expressed any lack of respect for Indigenous Australians. You, in fact, may be showing disrespect by using the term "Aborigines."

A short time back, on a thread about recently seen movies, I mentioned a movie that I enjoyed entitled "Quigley Down Under." Without going into detail about the movie (look it up if you're interested), in the course of my review, I used the term "Aborigines." Shortly thereafter, I read the following:

The word Aboriginal has been in use in English since at least the 17th century and means "first or earliest known, indigenous," (Latin Aborigines, from ab: from, and origo: origin, beginning). Strictly speaking, "Aborigine" is the noun and "Aboriginal" the adjectival form; however the latter is often also employed to stand as a noun. The use of "Aborigine(s)" or "Aboriginal(s)" in this sense, i.e., as a noun, has acquired negative, even derogatory connotations in some sectors of the community, who regard it as insensitive, and even offensive. The more acceptable and correct expression is "Aboriginal Australians" or "Aboriginal people," though even this is sometimes regarded as an expression to be avoided because of its historical associations with colonialism. "Indigenous Australians" has found increasing acceptance, particularly since the 1980s.

Unaware of this at the time I originally posted on the movie thread, I posted again and explained that I was, indeed, unaware of the possibly pejorative nature of the term and I duly apologized if I had inadvertently offended anyone.

David Franks, among being many other distinctly unadmirable things, you are also a liar!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 02:53 PM

Oops. Time for a new word of the day....

OUTRAGE!!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 03:08 PM

Do you suppose WAV's self-esteem is intact after these threads?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM

If so, he should consider running for prime minister of the UK, because he will have shown that he can take the flak.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM

Back when we became defenders
    (We have plainly been attackers),
Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -
A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway
And as we slipped as maintainers.
there has been a lot of this from, David Franks,but not much in the way of facts,what were the uk immigration figures for 2007,and what were the uk emigration figures,what were the uk figures for illegal immigrants.
David Franks,please supply these English from government sources,not from british national party,or english democrat sources

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

Little Hawk, if someone lies about you, don't you think you have a right to set the record straight? If not, you leave me no choice but to curse you with that ancient and most dreaded of Japanese curses, "Whasamalayou!??"

But, of course, I mustn't do that, otherwise our resident racist will try to divert attention from himself (ironic, that, since he's here primarily for the attention!) by squealing with delight that I've just offered him further proof that I am a racist, not him.

So just forget it!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:11 PM

And that give us a whole new word for today:

Amnesia!

...what was it you just said to me, Don? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM

News Alert!

I have taken to heart a post on the "Instrument Thread" from Brother Spleen Cringe. The suggestion being that Wavylimpdick may not be the right way to address Franks. The Spleen will no longer cringe as I have now pledged to refer to David as WavyFunkyWhiteBoyRacist.

I really couldn't prove he's a limpdick although he is certainly suspect. However, the new term he has proven himself through his many posts and links. I hope this works for all of you as well and I sincerely apologize for not correcting this earlier.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:23 PM

Don, why are you bothering getting into a lather with some racist little fuckwit who has already demonstrated that he knows bugger-all about music, poetry, history or anything, in fact, save driving fork-lift trucks?
It's like watching an elephant trying to swat a gnat. David Franks is too purblind, pig ignorant and thick skinned to be worth arguing with. Just accept the fact that there's probably something rather disturbed and inadequate about the poor chap (which clearly prevents him holding down a proper job and forces him to sponge off the state) and realise that he's probably more to be pitied than scorned. Or would be if he wasn't a racist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:24 PM

It's about time we all had a sincere apology from you, Spaw. Geez, man, I have waited years for this. YEARS, I tell you! This is almost as good as Obama winning the election. I'm breaking out the champagne here, man. Thanks! ;-D

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM

"Now Smokey has called also called me a "whiteboy" before adding "Of course, in the good old days they'd have banished him to the colonies..."...you seem to have about as much respect for Aborigines as Don. But, again, none of you have any seem to have any problem with that - just my questioning of THE ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF..."

The problem is the gounds on which you question it, Whiteboy, and note carefully the capital 'W', and the absence of an 'a'. Not that it makes much difference; either way I think you're a racist twat.

Respect for 'Aborigines'? I don't know any. I'd hazard a guess that you are right though, and I have about as much respect for them as Don. For what it's worth, I'm ashamed and disgusted at what treatment they've had at the hands of Our Good Culture, and you have done nothing to rectify that. You should offer an apology to both Don and I for that remark. You don't even know the meaning of the word 'respect', you sad twat.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:21 PM

Little Hawk: "...what was it you just said to me, Don? ;-)"

Uh . . . I forget.

No lather on my part, Gervase. But an occasional full-throated snarl will often send the little rodent scurrying back into his hole. The operational part of my post was to ask David where the hell he got that. Did he actually read what I had posted on the movie thread? Doubtful. So where did he get the idea? I don't expect an answer, of course, because David is not into answers. But I am kind of curious as to which of his "poems" he would cite in an effort to substantiate my alleged disrespect for Indigenous Australians.

Just a note: part of my post about "Quigley Down Under" on the movie thread.

It takes place in the late eighteen-hundreds in Australia. Matthew Quigley (Tom Selleck) is an American cowboy hired to come to Australia because he is a crack shot with a long-range rifle. Sniper type. The man who hires him is Elliott Marston (Alan Rickman), who owns a ranch (station?), and Quigley is under the impression that he's being hired to kill varmints that are plaguing Marston's livestock. Marston has a different idea of what constitutes "varmints,"

Marston wants Quigley to kill any Indigenous Australians he finds on Marston's land.

and when Marston tells Quigley what he wants him to do, Quigley picks him up and throws him bodily out his own front door. Their relatationship kinda goes downhill from there. . . .

I used the term "Aborigines," not being aware that it might be regarded as pejorative, then duly apologized later in case I had offended anyone in my ignorance.

I notice, however, that David uses the word freely. Perhaps like throwing the "N-word" around without regard for whom he might offend.

I mean, if we're going to be strictly PC, then for heaven's sake, let's go all the way!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:35 PM

It's sometimes a little difficult to know the acceptable terminology, because not everyone within a particular group agrees themselves. Some native Americans don't at all mind being called "Indians" (an indication that Columbus was really lost and totally clueless about where he actually was), whereas others find the word offensive. The terms "black" and "African-American" are also subject to conflict. Some find them offensive, while others prefer either one or the other.

I tend to think that Caryn Elaine Johnson (better known as "Whoopi Goldberg") has the right idea. She said, "Why African-American? My family has been in this country for generations. I don't regard myself as African-American. I'm an American."

I'll drink to that!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:32 PM

Chongo tells me that these problems arise among apes and monkeys too...as to which word is considered acceptable and which isn't. Some chimps find the word "chimp" itself insulting and insist on the full term "chimpanzee", while others prefer terms like Primate-American, or African-Primate-American. "Knuckle-dragger" is frowned upon by most, while "banana peeler" is looked upon more favorably as long as it isn't preceded by the word "dirty".

Whatever the case....the expression "poop flinger" is definitely considered an extreme pejorative by ALL chimps nowadays, and one should not use the term under ANY circumstances.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:54 PM

Here's an example of rank specism at its very worst! Be warned that it contains very upsetting scenes that may offend you deeply and cause you to lose sleep, foam at the mouth, and write angry letters to you congressman.

This is as bad as it gets

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 01:40 AM

"one should not use the term under ANY circumstances."

Not even under extreme provocation in apt circumstances?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 09:12 AM

Well...it's your lookout, man. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM

I dunno.... I'm torn between poop flinger and knuckle dragger. I wouldn't want to appear politically incorrect. Speaking of which, the immigrunt seems to be having a day off - perhaps he's out looking for a job.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:26 PM

Another common expression for denoting a primate is "mangopicker". It can be taken either positively or negatively depending on the context, the tone of voice, and the facial expression of the speaker.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:31 PM

1200!!!!!!!!!!!

Banana dacquiris all around!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 08:56 PM

WHAT?

Well just bugger me........yeah, drop my pants and nail me................yafockinsumvabitch.............

Christ on a crutch Hawk.....Ya' gotta' lotta' damn gall comin' round here and bitchin', pissin', and moanin', about how we drag this thread out fuckin' around with WavyFunkyWhiteBoyRacist and then YOU bag the hundred dozen???? You really are a broke-dick mamalucca of the first order!

And I admire you for it you asshole.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:00 AM

Years of practice and dedication, man. That's all I can say.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:04 AM

I am surrounded by GIANTS!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:08 AM

Pah! 1200 is just SO predictable.
I bag 1204.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:21 AM

Mmm... just read the thread count in the index. Gervase's post was actually 1203, so this one must be 1204...so, counting back and by my calculation, 1200 was really Spaw's. I will now exit stage left...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:22 AM

Wron! WRONG! I bury my head in shame. (Thinks...what's wrong with my browser...?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM

Don Firth, perhaps trying to be funny : "Enrish frute" and "didgeridon't".
Last night a school steel band, on their way to the Albert Hall, made our local news, but at least the presenter was enough of a realist to mention that they are not traditionl instruments of NE England; I would have added that, probably for a similar cost, they could have formed a Northumbrian pipe band...

213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

WAV...shhhh; people are talking here, don't interrupt...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:42 AM

Where do you stand on 'mango-flinger'?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:04 AM

'Mango-flinger' seems ok as a descriptive term, but could have abusive overtones. I draw the line, however at 'mando-flinger'.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:28 AM

Just thought I'd pop onto this version of take-a-pop-at-a-sitting-duck to see how it's all going and a conversation appears to have broken out.

"mamalucca"

Er, what's one of them then Spaw?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM

Stigweard, you're not paying attention. Spaw has elucidated on this colourful Italian-American expression in the past - by continuing to use it, he is practicing his Own Good (immigrant) Culture.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:59 AM

Nice to see you back, WAV.

Mango-flinger? Hmmm. Well, I think that would be acceptable in most quarters, again depending on context, tone, and delivery.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM

I did a Google search on Mango-Flinger and I'm still none the wiser.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:24 PM

" Spaw has elucidated on this colourful Italian-American expression in the past - by continuing to use it, he is practicing his Own Good (immigrant) Culture."

LMAO.....I rarely get a good belly laugh Ruth, but that was just priceless.

See WavyFunkyWhiteBoyRacist, I'm both glad my grandpa caught the boat and happy to be an American with Italian and German and English and Welsh and Native American roots. My grandfather was happy too and although he loved both countries, he was smart enough to recognize each for what it was and how they made him. He never tried to remake his new home into what he thought it should be. He was happy about what it was (as long as the Cleveland Indians were having a good year).   

He was married to a German and lived in a small community where he was surrounded by many Italians.....and Germans......and Irish......and a few Welsh......and a large Amish contingent just up the road........and Czechs.....and a number of English origin who often had Scots and Native American blood mixed in with their own.........and African-Americans who were still sadly second or third class citizens.......and a few Greeks plus one family from Albania. All of these folks gave of their own and made up a whole. In hundreds and hundreds of other small towns, these same plus additional nationalities met and mixed and made something new.

And when they went to church they went to churches that were Methodist, Presbyterian, Moravian, Nazarene, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Baptist, Episcopal, and a few others. They were all there in that small east Ohio town. They played baseball and football and went bowling but they also played Bocci and Darts and soccer and basketball. When I was a young boy there were kids named Pittis and Terakedis and Pickenstein and Neel and Washington and Clark and Smith and Jones and Gardena and Geannakopoulos, andWinzenreid and Pirilla................We didn't know from cultures......we just were.

Unlike yourself, they longed to be a part of what the country could be and they helped to form by looking to the future and not trying to live in an artificial past. As time passed, some felt they didn't get their fair share or were unhappy because they had expected more than they were willing to give and began taking it out on those who had. Like yourself, they were and are racists and bigots. Almost every nationality has come under their wrath but later they are absorbed as the new group replaces them.

I was about to go on and on but why? WavyFunkyWhiteBoyRacist is the kind of pissant jadrool who watches "Blazing Sadlles" and misses all of the jokes........"Okay, we'll take the niggers, but we NO IRISH!!!"..........Franks needs to walkabout sans pen and with open eyes and an open mind (which would probably require a lobotomy in his case).

Its very sad to create a "Life's Work" where the end product is the likes of David Franks.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:31 PM

Ah, another offering from WAV (Wearisomely Abject Versifier) to dissect. Now, where shall we start...

213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

...ah yes - the rhyming scheme. Well, what's it to be - is the thing to rhyme or not to rhyme? We have "roast" & "host", and "wish" & "English" (I'll deal with THAT particular pair in a minute), but what about "tennis" and "Morris"? Doesn't fit somehow, does it? I suppose you could have written "Line is fine BUT so is Dennis"...

On to scansion and metre. The line "And, when England is playing host" is just clumsy and would flow better, for example, by being re-cast as "And, when England plays the host". Understand?

In the line "It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish", the final emphasis is on the word WISH. Followed by "To sense culture that is English - where the natural emphasis is on the first syllable of ENGlish. So the whole couplet ends with a leaden clunk.

Now - why the bloody hyphens in "rest-of-the-world"? It's just unnecessary and thoughtless. Any why their "good" wish - and why use the word "sense" as a transitive verb with "culture" as its object? Why not use "see"? Much plainer and straightforward.

As to the sentiment, it's as puerile as ever. Tai Chi and curry and line dancing are just as much part of modern England as anything else. I personally don't care for line dancing, for example - but Tai Chi is, for me, much more preferable to tennis. Most popular English dish? Chicken Tikka Masala. Whether you like it or not. The point is, old cock, that there's just as much room in this country for curry as there is for roast dinners - and for hundreds of other things.

Final point: the language that you mangle with your crap so-called verse is a wonderful mixture of Brythonic, Roman, Saxon, Norman French, German, Scandinavian, Indian, Arabic, etc. - and it's called ENGLISH. The English language changes more than any other language and is able to assimilate words of foreign origin more than any other language and still remain ENGLISH. Got it? Got the metaphor?

I somehow doubt it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM

Erm, what's a "jadrool" then? Is it like a mamalucca?

Crikey, I do wish you yankees would cut using the vernacular and speak bloody English.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM

A stunning analysis, Will Fly. But think of the gifts required to turn out that sort of verse on a daily basis...reams and reams of it. Does it not strike you with awe? After all, most people can't do it. Or they don't. Or they wouldn't think of it. Or they're too busy earning a living. Or whatever... ;-)

We must nurture and encourage these sort of literary efforts for the benefit of future generations, I say! What would the world be without its William MacGonagalls and Julia Moores?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:38 PM

A jadrool is a worthless, witless, numbnuts jackoff. Yes, it's very similar to a mamalucca.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM

Little Hawk:
We must nurture and encourage these sort of literary efforts for the benefit of future generations, I say!

I suppose so (sigh). D'you know, I'm almost looking forward to when the next offering drops on to this thread - it's so much fun to rip into it. Mind you, I wish WAV was even 1% as enthralling as MacGonagall...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:08 PM

ubject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM

Don Firth, perhaps trying to be funny : "Enrish frute" and "didgeridon't".
Last night a school steel band, on their way to the Albert Hall, made our local news, but at least the presenter was enough of a realist to mention that they are not traditionl instruments of NE England; I would have added that, probably for a similar cost, they could have formed a Northumbrian pipe band...

213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com
so lets have facts,how much did the steel bands instruments cost,and how much would have ben the cost of a northumbrian pipe band,FACTS Please WAV.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM

Yeah, Will. ;-) Well, it's pretty hard to match the Master of the craft.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

Captain Birdseye:
so lets have facts,how much did the steel bands instruments cost,and how much would have ben the cost of a northumbrian pipe band,FACTS Please WAV.

Spot on, Captain. Last time I looked, the cheapest set of small pipes was getting on for £1,000. How many kids in a steel band, do you think? Say 12, for the sake of it: £12,000 for a school pipe band.

Set of oil drums, cut, heated and tuned: £1,000 each? I somehow doubt it. In any case, the kids would get to grips with steel band playing very much quicker than the small pipes. I love the Northumbrian pipes - my Billy Pigg vinyl album is one of the most cherished in my collection - but my buddy Derrick Hughes, who's been playing his pipes for 20 years, tells me that he's still learning...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

Yeah, I was struck by the end-rhymes, "good wish" and "Eng-LISH" also and was going to comment, but Mr. Fly beat me to it. Well spotted.

David, you seem to be fixated on my "Engrish frute" bit of whimsy, undoubtedly hoping to brand this as some sort of racial slur on my part so you can divert attention from yourself. Sorry, Charlie! No joy there. You've mouthed off with your racist ideas much too much to get away with anything like that.

And as to "Enrish," yes, it was pretty funny (and in no way a racial slur), but you misspelled it. For someone with a BA in Humanities, I would have though you could, at the very least, spell better than that. You missed the "g."

Did it ever occur to you (since you seem to set great store by where people are from, especially if they—like you, I might add—came from somewhere other than England) that "Engrish" might refer to child born of one parent from England and the other from Ireland?

Keep your mind flexible, David—    Oh! Sorry! Obviously atrophy has already set it.

On another bon mot of yours (that's French, by the way), so you would prefer to deny the opportunity of attendees to Albert Hall the pleasure of hearing a steel band—the music of another culture—and offer them a Northumbrian pipe band instead (worthy in and of itself, of course), because it hews closer to your ideas of what does or does not constitute "good English culture." That smacks of cultural censorship, and that's the kind of thing that tyrants like to pull.   You more than amply demonstrate that your turn of mind is such that were you (God forbid!) ever to gain any kind of political power and begin to implement you ideas, that there is good reason for the comment, "When I hear the world 'culture,' I reach for my pistol."

I am also in awe of the way you blew off Eliza Carthy on the other thread, lecturing her on what is and isn't "E-trad."

David, you are a real piece of work!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM

I would really like to hear someone try to make that poem rhyme and scan. A million zillion bonus points for making it rhyme and scan and emphasising the WORDS in CAPITALS.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

We have Tai Chi, and tennis too
Whilst lines are fine for saying "adieu"
We have good curry, jam, and toast
Whenever England plays the host
'Tis true that all the world admires
The tenors of the English choirs
But not so much as to refrain
When taking England's name in vain!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:54 PM

Thanks, LH. I meant "make it rhyme and scan as written" (hence what would otherwise be a rather reckless wager on my personal stash of bonus points), but that's good to read - after reading WAV's outpourings for a while you start to forget that it's possible to write poetry that not only tries to rhyme and scan but succeeds.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

It's bloody well impossible to make the original rhyme and scan as written! I would not even attempt it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

"make it rhyme and scan as written."

They don't make that big a hammer!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:38 PM

After a quick google, I have determined that a steel drum costs about £100. A beginners' set of Northumbrian small pipes will start at £500. Not to mention the cost of maintaining the instruments, which is far more complex than with steel drums - the expense of maintaining large numbers of instruments is what actually makes ensemble music cost-prohibitive for many schools.

Not to mention the difficulty of playing the pipes, which requires a level of musical ability not really required for the steel drums. in other words, if you are going to learn to play in an ensemble at school (ie, without your parents forking out for lessons and committing to making sure you practice at home) you need an instrument which is relatively easy to learn. Things like steel or African drums, through their very accessibility, offer an opportunity to make music for many kids who have not been fortunate enough to receive private musical tuition (and all instrumental tuition is private these days, in that parents have to pay).

So there are your reasons, Wavey. And please don't start arguing with me - this is my specialist subject.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:49 PM

Nice to have you back WaV, hope you managed to find a job yesterday. I see you managed to plant another link to your website and get everyone going again. By the way, you still owe me an apology, but I'll not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM

hilarious, WAV,criticises me for leaving England,forsaking poor old blighty.
I left Blighty never to come back
forsook poor Albion and the union jack

deserted albion fair,to the emerald isle I did repair.
one frosty day on the 15 january,I shed a tear.
said good bye to the red white and blue,
Christopher Robin and Winnie the pooh.
A traitor consumed with remorse
my music is tainted of course.
oh woe is me ,the muse has been stolen from me.
I must visit Buxton,and drink some tea.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 08:01 PM

Sorry mate, you can't come back 'ere unless it's by means of 'eco-travel'. Er, whatever that is.. (cadging a lift from someone else, probably.)

Actually, it should be said that in general the Irish make splendid tea, with a devotion to hospitality to rival any in Derbyshire. And that's saying summat.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 10:23 PM

Ya' know Smoke, I've been wondering the same thing about Eco-travel. At first I thought he meant things like flying "Economy" class or something. That couldn't be it though as Economy has become so bad they never sell it out anymore.

Did you ever fly Economy? Last time I did that I got a seat behind the crappers and it was nothing but a folding chair with a rope for a seat belt. Even worse, the rope wasn't attached to anything but the folding chair itself. I could barely hear the Flight Attendant going over the safety instructions and when I looked up for the trap cover of the oxygen mask, there was just a note written on it in Magic Marker saying, "Hold Your Breath."

The Safety Card in the side pocket wasn't too encouraging either. There was a picture of my "Emergency Exit" which showed a crashed and burning airliner, broken into pieces, and the arrows directing me out where the breaks were. It also said, "After making emergency exit, Stop, Drop, and Roll."

The other side of the card covered crash preparation and was more succinct. It read, "When the Pilot flashes the Fasten Seatbelt Sign a Flight Attendant will shout 'ASSUME CRASH POSITION'--- Please lean forward, grab your ankles, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye."

Fortunately nothing happened along those lines but the service wasn't any great shakes. The magazine selection consisted mainly of a couple of dozen copies of Disease Detection which had been donated by a hospital where they had been the single source of reading in the Emergency Room for the past 17 years. I leafed through one but when I realized they were so old that the main feature was on bloodletting I tossed it.

A guy asked what the movie was and he was shown a deck of cards which showed a stick figure running as the attendant riffled through them. Kinda' chintzy to say the least but then the meal came and it was actually tasty. Well at least it wasn't bland. The Economy meal was a gas station bean burrito and a double shot of tequila. About a half hour later though things really got to kickin' in the digestive tract and when I unroped and stepped forward I found the crapper doors all locked. It turns out that flying economy requires you to pay a $5.00 fee for each restroom usage. I ponied up just in time and blew a major load in their head. The woman sitting across the aisle didn't have the money and shit herself pretty badly. Then again, is there a good way to shit yourself?

It was a bad trip. I figure Eco travel of any sort just ain't for me. Or at least I ain't gonna' try any form of it again too soon, although I can see its the kind of thing that WavyFunkyWhiteBoyRacist would actually enjoy.....perhaps even wallow in, so to speak.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:10 AM

Heh heh.. no, I think WavyFunkyWhiteBoyRacistTwat's idea of eco-travel involves making as little impact as possible on the culture and ecology of the places visited. Sort of like the 'prime directive'. Oh dear, I've just wet myself.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:21 AM

Enrish Frute.
The real inventor of the horseless cheese grater, and a proper gentleman.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:48 AM

A gas station burrito would be preferable to the shite they fed me on Air Canada last week. AND I had to change planes in Montreal on the way to NY, collecting my bags and going through security and everything all over again (what, security at Heathrow isn't secure enough?) with barely an hour between flights. They were ever so helpful in the airport - no signs to tell you where to go, check-in staff who tell you that you "might" make your connecting flight, and security staff telling you not to get stressed when you're in danger of missing a connection on a journey that's already over 9 hours long.

I guess it serves me right for emigrating.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:55 AM

Ruth - I much prefer travelling by car ferry to flying. You drive on, leave your car tucked up safely, and then just drive off the other side. Passport control and customs are a doddle. You can walk around, shop, eat and drink what you want and, if it's a little rough, there are plenty of convenient places to throw up in.

It's the only way to travel. Just don't let a ferry journey of several weeks put you off...

By the way, was your emigration economic/social, or was it just eco?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:40 AM

Social to begin with, but I work in the UK, robbing re-patriates of their Own Good Employment, so I guess I'm part of the blight on English society.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:52 AM

I work in the UK, robbing re-patriates of their Own Good Employment

Yes - and contributing to their Own Good Unemployment Benefit as well...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM

Y'know, I never thought I'd see it happen, but I believe this thread is rapidly mutating into an alternative version of the Mother of All BS Threads. I see the same forces at work here, only a different cast of characters, that's all. Can the forum really handle two such repositories of digital effluent and complete blathertwaddle?

Well, yeah, I think it can... ;-)

But it's gonna take a long time for this one to catch up.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM

Will Fly - ever heard of "near rhyme"? And as for your "see" instead of my "sense" - it's common sense...there's also tastes, sounds, etc.

Pip - on my site, for what it's worth, poem 213 has italics (lost in copy/pasting) rather than capitals for emphasis - unlike laidback LH!

Ruth, etc. - it looked quite a sophisticated steel band set and I believe quite a lot of work goes into tuning suchlike but, okay, on average, they may be less expensive than our traditional Northumbrian pipes...chromatic polymer English flutes, of course, are considerably less expensive than both.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:49 PM

In your dreadful non-poetry non-rhyme non-scan non-sense are all used to telling effect as stylistic artifacts. Within the bewilderment that I as an English speaking non repat find is the query 'Why the word "good", sprinkled like currants therough the bun of your mind?' There are as many goods in your posts with as much value as the local junk shop.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:58 PM

"chromatic polymer English flutes, of course, are considerably less expensive than both."

Recorder bands in schools? There's a groundbreaking idea if ever I heard one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:06 PM

Well, I've heard of "nowhere near rhyme"...

chromatic polymer English flutes, of course, are considerably less expensive than both.

Really? I've never seen an English flute advertised anywhere. Where can I buy this fine folk instrument?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM

Will Fly - ever heard of "near rhyme"? And as for your "see" instead of my "sense" - it's common sense...there's also tastes, sounds, etc.

Near rhyme, eh? How near - about 13,000 miles perhaps? You just don't get it, do you, ignorant twat that you are. As for "sense", in the context of what you have written, you're writing about England "playing the host". It's just a stupid juxtaposition, which you can't sense because you have no verse sense. See?

Your "verse" is just non-verse - so much worse than verse. You haven't the faintest idea how to construct even the simplest of poems, whether free verse or conventional. You seem to write the first Good-phrase that comes from your Good-mouth and think it's a Good-poem, and I think you should give it a Good-rest FROM NOW ON.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:37 PM

How come he just wrote 230 'poems' and then stopped? That's what I want to know.. It seems very odd to me, given the evident level of self-belief.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

I think what you need to do is read all 230 poems carefully, then cross reference them for hidden clues. Eventually you will find the answer.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

Read all 230?

Fuck-ing-hell.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

Aah - the WA Vinci Code! It's all coming clearer now...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:22 PM

I think its kinda like the "Paul is dead" thing.....If you go through his life's work backwards it spells out over and over---

David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot........


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM

chromatic polymer English flutes
You have to laugh, I suppose. We all know them as plastic recorders.
How about taking a leaf out of WAV's book and, instead of Walkabouts Verse, substituting the phrase "The Endless Drivel of a Racist Imbecile"?
So, WAV, meet EDRI.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:48 PM

C'mon...just admit it. You're all secretly delighted that you have found a closet racist to go after. It satisfies a deep inner need you have to know for certain your own righteousness by drawing comparisons to the despised one. A confirmation of your fine moral credentials. The best thing would be if a primetime TV show could be funded, along the lines of "All In The Family", with WAV playing the Archy Bunker role, and then the entire society could tune in weekly to laugh at how awful he is.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM

Well strap me to a tree and call me Brenda - I never knew I had fine moral credentials.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:05 PM

LOL! Good response there, Smokey. I like your attitude.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:00 PM

Hark! The Grand Lama speaks from high atop his mountain above the valley of Shangri-La!

"Virgil bade Dante feel towards those who have been damned because of their colorless neutrality: Non ragionam di lor, ma guarda e passa — 'Let us think no more about them, but look once and pass on.'"

Archie Bunker (played with bravura by Carroll O'Connor—"Connor's own politics were liberal, but he understood the Bunker character and played him not only with bombast and humor,but with touches of vulnerability") was funny because you knew he was fictional.

When you meet a bigot in real life, he is not funny at all!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM

And he is not really a "closet racist." He's right out there in the open, telling us what he really wants the world to be like. Not only that, he wants the United Nations to enforce his view of what the world should be like (a place for everybody and everybody in their place).

But of course, like all racists, he denies being a racist.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:34 PM

Ah...but this is not real life, Don. This is the internet. The only way you'll ever find out what David Franks is like in real life is to meet him in real life and talk to him across the table and take some time about it. Until then we're all just blowing bubbles here as far as I'm concerned.

You want to find something REALLY obnoxious in the digital world to get upset about? Open up just about any video on Youtube about any song or subject whatsoever and read the "comments" section. There you will find a certain number of people who personally attack other people in ways so rude, vicious, and uncalled for...accompanied by such dreadful spelling, moronic hostility, and lack of good grammar...that a page or two of those comments may cause you to despair for the entire future of humanity.

David Franks is not a big problem, Don. He's quite mild in comparison to what the Net is polluted with. He's just a convenient problem for a few denizens of this forum who have decided to pursue him on a daily basis here until he either recants, commits suicide, or goes away.

And if he's doing it all for laughs....then what?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:10 AM

Little Hawk, you don't understand me, and some others here, at all. Nor, I believe, do you really understand what's going on here, even though you think you do. So why don't you give your kibbitzing a rest until you figure it all out, okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:25 AM

It's precisely because David Franks posts his stuff without moronic hostility, dreadful spelling and poor grammar (well, some of the time) that he's a problem. It's easy to deal with the sort of morons who clutter up the YouTube comment section - you just ignore them. But when someone like Franks comes on and starts making assertions they need to be countered, lest the morons out there take him seriously.
I don't think he's bright enough to be doing the whole thing as a wind-up, and I appreciate he might well see all these posts as slights to be endured on the road to martyrdom, but his absurd assertions (backed by the strength of four technical certificates) can't go unanswered.
I would far rather the Mudcat didn't have a racist in its midst, but as it does, and he's a thick-skinned and prolific poster, then he shouldn't go unchallenged.
I concede that it's a bit sad; here we have an unemployed nobody posting largely drivel, and around the world there are people devoting time to pointing out that it is drivel. If the clock were turned back 20 years then he wouldn't have his status as global village idiot, and it would be down to someone in his adopted home town to tell him to feck off and take his pencil away.
But this is the internet, and everyone's voice carries as far as the next person's even David Franks. And because this forum is - by and large - populated by reasonable folk, people like Franks risk gaining spurious credibility by association.
For all those who are tempted to misquote Voltaire on the right to free speech, I'd counter with Churchill (or even Mark Twain or good old Anon); "a lie can get halfway round the world before the truth has a chance to get its boots on."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:45 AM

Stop being a spoilsport LH. You obviously don't know what you're talking about so just let everyone else get on with their deconstruction of the character of WAV.

There are standards of decency, propriety and commonsense to be upheld, and that means winkling out these racists with our winklers; we'll all be damned of we let this Aussie immigrant tell us what to do in our own country!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19731

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

I can understand Little Hawk's obvious disappointment here - all these years of hoping and praying for sentient, enlightened Extra Terrestrial Life and when one does show up, it's a gormless little shit like Wavy thus proving that there is no intelligent life out there... Australia? Balls to that! He's from Zeta 2 Reticuli - sent to earth to assimilate himself into English Culture, masquerading as an Australian Tourist-cum-Repatriate so as not to make it too obvious. I should have noticed it earlier - Zeta Reticuli is around 39 light years from earth, thus, when Wavy Zetan set off for England 11 years ago, his point of reference was, of course, the 1950s (taking into account the time it takes for radio transmissions to traverse 39 light years of cosmic vacuum, however so corrupted they might become en route). Not only does this account for Wavy's present confusion, ignorance and bewilderment, but also his general air of impotent anachronism manifest by his dress sense and comb-over. It also accounts for his totalitarian inhumanity and his confidence that one day Planet Earth will yield to his iron will...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:10 AM

He's a wind-up merchant. I claim my £5.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:23 PM

Nah Stiggy......I think Gervase phrased it well.

Just to be sure though, I flipped through his crappy "poetry" backwards and once again it popped right out......
David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot........



So there ya' go!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:28 PM

Will - following self-publication, as an amateur, I have been published elsewhere, and some have liked some of my verses. And "WA Vinci Code!" is a new one, "WAVaholics" an old one.
Smokey - yes I've retired from versification, having said what I wanted to...for what it's worth, I read through all 230 poems once a year to keep in touch, sometimes making minor changes.

"But of course, like all racists, he denies being a racist." (Don)...I've only questioned the act of immigration itself, and have never used terms such as "Engrish frute" or "didgeridon't" (Don Firth). You keep attacking, I have to keep defending.
And I'm not doing it for "laughs", LH (and others) - I genuinely believe my way is a good way forward for humanity.

And IB - since you posted that about me, I have to remind that you also concluded that New Labour are "all mother fuckers".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM

WAV bingo revised. Every time WAV says

"I've only questioned the act of immigration itself"
or
"I genuinely believe my way is a good way forward for humanity"
or
"I do love the world being multicultural"
or
"nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity"
or even
"Racism is when you say they are all like this or that."

we... ignore him. If he wants to yank our collective chain, he's going to have to do what the rest of us do from time to time and find different words to use. We've heard all of these.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:05 PM

I read through all 230 poems once a year to keep in touch

Keep in touch with what exactly?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:27 PM

He'd like to stay in touch with his dick but its so miniscule he hasn't been able to find it in 14 years and pisses his pants several times everyday.

WAVYFUNKYWHITEBOYRACIST....Look Dumbass....Your own words have spoken for you and are clear and readily interpreted by all. YOU ARE A RACIST! You can't defend what you already admit. There's no explaining it away.

And as far as reviewing your trashy-ass lifeshit, try reading it backwards and the you can see the words pop right out......
David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot, David Franks is a racist-bigot



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:36 PM

"I have been published elsewhere. . . ."

Once—yet again!—you link to your own site, claiming that you have been "published elsewhere." That's hardly "published" in the usually accepted sense of the word. Pathetic! Hell, by that standard, I could put a sign in my front window and claim that I'm "published."

But I don't have to do that, however, because I have been published:   one article in Sing Out! Magazine some years back, and some sixteen articles in Victory Review. These are magazines that are printed and distributed to the public, containing articles that I have written which have been vetted and approved by editors. That's what is usually meant by the word "published."

So you don't consider yourself a racist despite your bigoted philosophy. You object to the presence in England of those dark-skinned people with their Jamaican, Pakistani, Indian, Kenyan and South African accents who have inundated your good English air with the smell of curry and other exotic aromas wafting out of restaurants, and who actually take jobs that you can't muster the ambition to go out an apply for because, after all, it's so much easier to live on the dole (that their taxes are paying for) and sit there at home playing your "English flute," and then you whine about how they are polluting your "good English culture." "Oh, they're perfectly nice people—in their own countries. But I don't want them living in my country!"

No matter how you slice it, that's bigotry.

And then you try to imply that I am bigoted because of a touch of whimsy ("Engrish frute"). They are not words I use in everyday conversation. It was strictly ad hoc, and it was a joke, in case you missed it. And I presume that you're trying to imply that my play on words with "didgeridoo" indicates that I am being disrespectful of Indigenous Australians (whom you keep calling "Aborigines," which many Indigenous Australians find patronizing and offensive). You'll have to explain how you came up with that, because it's certainly reaching for straws.

Regarding jokes making use of dialects:   Those who know me know that there is nothing racist or disrespectful about telling the occasional dialect joke, or about me. Many comedians base their humor on the use of dialects, and although I don't regard myself as a comedian, I am not above telling an occasional joke in appropriate circumstances.

I have a good friend of the Jewish persuasion from whom I have learned a fairly extensive repertoire of Jewish jokes, most of which incorporated or rely on the use of dialect. At a party when the jokes are going 'round, he will often ask me to tell a joke that I learned from him—because, despite the fact that I am not Jewish myself, I can do a better Jewish accent than he can!

Does that make me anti-Semitic? I don't think so!!

I also have a sizeable repertoire of "Lord Chumley" jokes that I learned from an English friend of mine, and I tell them with a fairly broad English accent. In fact, he and I sometimes did them together, with him playing Chumley and me playing Chumley's man-servant, Meadows ("Jolly good, sir! You got him on the rise!").

Does that make me anti-English. No, indeed! If our circumstances allowed, both my wife and I could live very happily in England and could be very easily persuaded to do so. But then, of course, we would be polluting David's "good English culture" with our barbaric American presence.

A good singer also needs to be a good actor. And actors assume accents all the time as an integral part of their art. And this, in no way, indicates that they are "racist" or are showing any disrespect whatsoever to the ethnic or national group whose accent they assume.

British actor Hugh Laurie (Bertie Wooster) is currently playing an idiosyncratic doctor in an American television medical drama entitle "House." He has assumed an American accent for the role, and he does it so well that most people who are not familiar with his previous work are unaware that he is English. Because he can and does affect an American accent, only a total horse's ass would assume that he is being bigoted or disrespectful toward Americans by doing so.

And by the way, whether I am—or anyone else here is—a racist or not has nothing to do with the fact that, by your own utterances, you have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:06 AM

Don (who called a recorder made in Japan an "Engrish frute" and a famous Aboriginal instrument a "didgeridon't" before also falsely calling me - who has only questioned the act of immigration itself - "bigotted" and "racist", and also just tried falsely putting words in my mouth), the above link leads to a list of other publications in which my poems have been printed - which, if you wish, you can get to via the link below.

IB: because I've committed my repertoire of chants, songs, and hymns (use same link) to memory, I try to get through them once a week; but, with my poems, I take my paperback on stage and read them - thus, I only go through them once a year.

And to crude Catspaw - it's you, NOT I, who has used terms such as "whiteboy".

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

(Also on my myspace playlist so, if you'd like to hear it read, again use below link.)

Poem 187 of 230: A SOUTH SHIELDS WALKABOUT - AUTUMN 2001

Out of the museum-and-gallery
(Wiser on Cookson and the local way),
Down Ocean Road with, to the right of me,
Its eateries and, left, neat places to stay;
Before, on either side, Marine Parks -
The southern-one a most beautiful place,
Teeming with moorhens, swans, grebes and mallards
In a small lake at a scenic-hill's base.

Then (holding chips from the parade's cafe
And, thus, a flock of gulls squawking above)
Onto the South Pier I made my way:
Seeing seaweed over rocks - like a glove -
And high-and-dry sands held from transgression
By growth of grass and the weaving of wood,
Plus, in the dim light of a sleepy sun,
Fishing boats returning to Tynemouth's hood.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:35 AM

Good Grief Franks.
Just go away. We're not interested in visiting your links.
We already have, and once was enough for me.
And any performer who admits to taking a notebook on stage as an aide memoire, obviously can't be bothered to learn his own material.
I did it once but I was 16 at the time. Mea Culpa.
And as for your temerity in dissing talented and kind people like Don and Eliza. God you've go some balls to do that.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Now, Go Away, and take your pathetic doggerel with you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:37 AM

Account for the foibles of the poetic muse that whilst so fickle in having deserted you, has nevertheless left you forever beguiled by her spoils, however so Narcissistically.

Account also for objectivism, even at the remove of these several & ever receding years whereby you might still find this not only only worthy of your own attention, but also of ours.

From whither this perplexing vanity whereby all you inspire is the derision and abuse that, no doubt, ascends you to the status of the misunderstood martyr; one so noble as to be forever at odds with his times for the very best of reasons whilst awaiting his glorious day...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM

Love it Sean. Over the head I think..

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM

with my poems, I take my paperback on stage and read them
My God, that conjures up a vision of sheer bloody hell!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:56 AM

Supper

The chips I bought from local shop
Gold and crisp with the sparkle of salt and
the acid tang of non brewed condiment
The paper bag, greaseproof, and transparent
where beef dripping gave lie to its feature
And above
The shoal of gulls following the bait in my hand
The mackerel of the sky
Waiting for the jetsam of the tourist

Stu
(inspired by a line of WAV...)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM

I drank deeply,
Of beer newly drawn from the wood,
I ate fish freshly caught from the deep blue sea,
And potatoes from the good English earth,
The I puked it all back up,
Feck.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:01 AM

David - I've just posted a video on YouTube - it's a song from the WF (Will Fly) Trad called My Blue Heaven. I play the second chorus on a high whistle in D - you might find some tips there for your own recorder playing. The 3rd chorus is dedicated to that great folksinger J. Hendrix, and the fourth and last chorus is a duet with a Chinese immigrant.

Watch, listen and learn. It's at:
My Blue Heaven

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

'Kin brilliant, Will, your grandson's lucky to have you.

Mind you, I'm not sure you frute technique is quite correct - you didn't learn it from a foreigner, did you?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM

WaV - Just how did the didgeridoo get to be a "famous Aboriginal instrument"?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:06 PM

Solly Will, I see now it's a frageoret, not a frute - before you quite lightly collect me.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:07 PM

Dum, dum, diddy, diddy, dum, dum, daaaa-dum!
Dum, dum, diddy, diddy, dum, dum, daaaa-dum!
DUM! Da-da-da-dum...
DUM! Da-da-da-dum...
Diddy, diddy, diddy, diddy, da-da-da-da-daaaaa-dum!

(Repeat the above merrily over and over again on the circus calliope. It is guaranteed to brighten up your day.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

ROTFLMAO!!!

Bloody Brilliant, guys!!

If response to The David can inspire work like this, then it may be that he does indeed serve some purpose on this planet other than merely sucking up tax money and wasting internet band-width. I'll be snorting and cackling for the rest of the day! And probably well into next week!

And YOU, David, are STILL trying to brand ME as a racist? That would be almost as funny were it not such an abjectly pathetic attempt to divert attention from your own blatant bigotry.

Don Firth

P. S. Someone suggested somewhere that the main reason David is here is that he's trying to find a girl friend. If he does, can someone who lives near him take a bicycle pump over to where he lives and help him blow her up?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:40 PM

I think he's more into self-inflation..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:00 PM

I think his girlfriend is one Thomasina Thumb, helped by her four sisters.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

I think he does it while he's reading this forum..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:54 PM

Yes Gervase, either them or Rosey Palm and her 4 daughters. In any case, Wavyfunkywhiteboyracist is a jagov.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:15 PM

With my poems, my precious poems
My A4 poems of forty lands
I share my thoughts my precious thoughts
With those who read my own web page
There are some folk impoverished folk
Without computers - factory hands?
Their lives I charm: enrich and charm
I take my paperback on stage
and read them all my poems
My precious poems


Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:25 PM

HUH !

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:11 AM

Don't listen to them WAV, masturbating is merely having sex with your best [ only ? ] friend.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 09:32 AM

Frankly, Will, I personally wasn't in "Heaven" with your recording - your voice, e.g., is very much in the background, and I'd much rather listen to a good folk voice unaccompanied or in the foreground of the musical mix.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

Well of course you wouldn't like it, you pillock - that was the whole point of directing you to it! It was made for my grandson, but I hope you took in the lessons of the whistle solo... Actually, if you think the voice is too much in the background, then either your ears or your equipment is seriously faulty.

It's FUN, idiot! Which is what most music should have within it - the power to entertain and amuse and be frivolous - not just be a fucking nationalistic "statement" within some bigoted cultural envelope.

Your reaction, which was utterly predictable, just demonstrates what a cloth head you are. Humourless, pedantic, monomanic, pedestrian and dull - all of which, coupled to your idiotic nationalistic views, makes you a pretty sad specimen.

All of which has been said over 1,000 times already by the assorted 'Catters on this thread and others.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM

Compare and contrast...

Example 1


Example 2

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

Will - some nice stuff on your website. Ive bookmarked it: I teach, and I'd like to use a couple of your tabs if thats OK?

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM

Will - some nice stuff on your website. Ive bookmarked it: I teach, and I'd like to use a couple of your tabs if thats OK?

Stu

My pleasure - that's what it's there for. Take whatever you want.

Will

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 12:11 PM

Will
I always very much enjoy your music. I regard you as one of the masters on mudcat. I think your music is amazing myself keep putting it up

Dan

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:00 PM

That's a nice video, Will. I like the guitar playing. Very smooth and adept. As for your mastery of the recorder, well....breathtaking! ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM

"Frankly, Will, I personally wasn't in "Heaven" with your recording - your voice, e.g., is very much in the background, and I'd much rather listen to a good folk voice unaccompanied or in the foreground of the musical mix."

WaV, you're a grade one prat. No skill, no heart, no manners, no sense of humour, no point. Keep up the masturbation, it seems to be all you're good at.

As I said, Will - lucky grandson, and your affection speaks volumes through that video. I fear WaV is not capable of appreciating such things.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

WaV - why don't you record your version of that song and show us all how it should be done? Let's hear if it sounds better unaccompanied and sung with a proper folk voice.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:20 PM

Aha - 1300

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:06 PM

Fun, Will. Now that's entertainment! I especially like your nose picking--of the uke.

Some people play by note, some play by ear, and some are even more versatile than that!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:27 PM

Will Fly......An absolutely wonderful piece. Great old song too! I've had about 8 or 9 people over this weekend and I've shown all of them the video. They're quite used to me doing this btw, and I'm a nutcase myself (ask around here for instance)..........EVERY ONE OF THEM just loved it and figure you are running for "Neatest Grandpa." Makes me wish I had some but sadly, I'm probably about the same age as you are but I'm still raising the first ones!

And Wavyfunkywhiteboyracist.........Your response to WF is totally laughable jackass.....You couldn't have been serious. Just in case you were and IF you were.......Fuckoff numbnuts.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 03:47 AM

s&r, Don, olddude, Smokey, Little Hawk, Spaw - thanks.

Well, there you have it: 44 years of dedication to my craft and I end up trying to make out with a stuffed bear and being lectured on production values by a stuffed owl. Way to go...

But, if the stuffed owl happens to be reading this, let me explain how this 2 minutes of "silliness" came about.

01. Laid down a hi-hat backing track
02. Laid down fingerstyle guitar track
03. Laid down acoustic bass guitar track
04. Laid down vocal track 1
05. Laid down vocal track 2
06. Laid down vocal track 3
07. Bounced vocal tracks down to 1 track
08. Laid down muted trumpet track
09. Laid down distorted guitar track
10. Mixed down all tracks, excluding hi-hat, and dumped to Mac Book Pro using Audacity
11. Filmed guitar & vocal (shot 1) - lip-synched to playback
12. Filmed whistle shot (shot 2) - mime-synched to playback
13. Filmed uke shot (shot 3) - mime-synched to playback
14. Filmed bear shot (shot 4) - lip-synched to playback
15. Dumped filmed shots to Mac Book using iMovie
16. Created mp3 of audio with Audacity and imported into iMovie
17. Cut and mixed video shots with cross-fades to audio track in iMovie
18. Added credits
19. Mixed down to high-quality Quicktime
20. Uploaded to YouTube and Vimeo

Easy, wasn't it? All that for 2 minutes of fun.

The point, me old stuffed owl, is that you have to spend time learning your trade, making your musical bones, before you pontificate on what should and shouldn't be. All sorts of fish swim in the Mudcat pond. There are whales out there. I'm just a medium-sized shark but you're just the teensiest of tiddlers. You should remember that before you start your lecture tour.

Will

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 03:47 AM

Hi Will. Have never met you, but your version of Blue Heaven was sublime!
On another thread Joe Offer is asking why people like the "Cat" for some article or other.
I'd point him in the direction of your clip!!
Thanks for posting it. Rest assured that everyone will get the humour with which it was done........Except One!!! (wonder who that could be?)
As for the sound mix. As a professional, it sounded as fine as anything on the Web can. More power to you and your family, Keep on keeping on.
Regards and thanks for brightening my day.
Ralphie.
And Wav. If you didn't get it, there really is no hope for you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 03:53 AM

Thanks Ralphie - glad it was good for a laugh! My years at the Beeb watching colleagues doing sound mixing (many, many years ago) weren't wasted then. I worked in what was the old Information Services Division, but most of my Beeb friends were producers and/or musicians. Glad I don't work there now though...

Regards,

Will

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:07 AM

Excellent Will!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:09 AM

Me too!!
Took the early bath 2 years ago after 33 years, and seeing the way The Beeb seems to be going I'm glad I did!.
Luckily working for the Radio Music depts, I came in touch with some of the most wonderful musicians on the planet. Of every genre. What a great way to spend your career. I was truly blessed!
Kind Regards Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:12 AM

When it comes to the problem of sound mixing / editing in video, I think this one gets it just about bang on:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=T_221BH9pNE

Otherwise, loved your Blue Heaven, Will & nice to see how it was done too.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:24 AM

Mr Beard....You are a sad sad man.
Thought I was going to see some audio/visual magic....You Swine!!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:36 AM

Oh dear; that video should at least come with a warning. Watching it I felt I was drifting into the arena of the unwell.
But on a happier note - some superb videos there Will. Inspirational stuff.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Mooh
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:12 AM

Will...That was loads of fun, nice goin'...but I can wait for my own grandkids, lol!

David...That was very odd, but maybe silent movies are your forte. I suggest you spend all your time on silent pursuits.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:39 AM

I've suggested before that Wavyfunkywhiteboyracist's video is hard to understand. I have never seen anyone wallow a recorder around so much and I'm thinking its more probable he's demonstrating fellatio techniques.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM

Yeah? Well he could not of flippin' come up with none of them fellashio methuds that you did not, like, have flippin' well masttered yerself a long ways back, eh, Catspoop? You rude flippin' looser boy. You are a flippni' enbarrissmend, man, to yer hole flippin' comyunity, I betcha! I bet there ain't a dog in yer town that don't run fer cover when it sees you flippin' comin' down the street, know'm sayin'? You suck, man. You are the rudest flippin' A-hole flipface boltheaded corkpuller that ever flipped a dead groundhog and you aught to be band from the flippin' Innternet for mortal indesensy.

- Shane

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:47 PM

Spaw
you never cease to make me laugh to tears. No one cuts to the chase better then you. God Bless you my friend. I always thought you should do stand up along with being a master musician... I would buy the ticket in a heartbeat

Dan

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

On this thread he's certainly a master baiter. Shame workshy WAV can't match him, really.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Master Baiter
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM

Excuse me Gervase, but I am the Master Baiter as you can readily see. Catspaw49 is a pretender as is the pathetic Shane O'Hawkster.

I have it on good authority that Little Hawk, Shane, and Chongo, all were invited to a circle jerk at William Shatner's house trailer.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM

There are most definitely times when Silence is Golden. There's the proof.

I was wondering there for a moment if David might not be in danger of getting his tongue caught in his fipple. That might lead to the odd fate of having to spend the rest of his life wandering around with his "English flute" dangling from the tip of his tongue.

Potentially dangerous activity, that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

Will: firstly, genuine thanks for that info. (you seem to know your onions) on video making - most of it new to me (as you can probably tell from IB's link!). But, as for "I hope you took in the lessons of the whistle solo...", I shall keep trying to play like I sing, and sing like I play, just the unadulterated unadorned (unlike this sentence!) tune, with tenor-recorder/English flute and, occasionally, keys; and, for what it's worth, on this, Will, WAV will not waver.
Catspsaw - please save such spew for your kitty litter.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:03 PM

Master Baiter, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience. ;-)

However, it is untrue that I have been invited to a circle jerk (along with Chongo and Shane) at William Shatner's house trailer. I hope to be honored in that fashion...I hope for it daily...but it has yet to transpire.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM

Will: firstly, genuine thanks for that info. (you seem to know your onions) on video making - most of it new to me (as you can probably tell from IB's link!). But, as for "I hope you took in the lessons of the whistle solo...", I shall keep trying to play like I sing, and sing like I play, just the unadulterated unadorned (unlike this sentence!) tune, with tenor-recorder/English flute and, occasionally, keys; and, for what it's worth, on this, Will, WAV will not waver.

David, you've been gracious enough to acknowledge that I know what I'm doing when I make videos, and I'm gracious enough to say "thank you".

Look now - nobody is telling how you how or what to play on your recorder - play what you like and good luck to you. But please don't push half-formed opinions and knowledge about music on others, and beware - really beware of enfolding your literary and musical efforts within a nationalistic and rigid philosophy that most 'Catters genuinely find abhorrent. That's my honest advice to you. And if you look dispassionately through all the posts in this thread, you'll see that that's the case.

Believe what you want to believe. Write what you want to write. Play what you want to play. Just be very careful of foisting it off on this forum, which is stacked with experts in a huge variety of areas of knowledge. That's genuine advice from the heart.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM

I can't believe you guys are still hanging around over here verbally dueling with an unarmed man.

Doesn't the Geneva Convention say something about this? ;-D

SRS

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 04:35 PM

If it doesn't, it certainly ought to.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:35 PM

The Geneva Convention bans crossbows - what more do you want?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 05:46 PM

They ban noogies too, don't they?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:03 PM

It's advisable to be careful where you smoke them.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 06:13 PM

How about the wedgie? Particularly the atomic wedgie, where you pull the back of the waistband of the victim's Jockey shorts over the top of his head and hook the label under his nose*?

Don Firth

*Endorsed by the advocates of Zero Population Growth.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 07:24 PM

Oh please Don - it's bad enough having the mental image of him dribbling over his computer without his pyjamas on without having to contemplate the grizzly prospect of his underpants. If he owns any.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:17 PM

A grisly prospect, 'tis true, but if an atomic wedgie is administered with sufficient speed and vigor, his testicles come popping out of his ears.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM

Well, it might improve his singing.
Although:
"I shall keep trying to play like I sing, and sing like I play"

WHY??

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:29 PM

The atomic wedgie has long been banned in what is normally termed "the civilized world". As for noogies, that's when you put someone in a headlock and vigorously rub your knuckles against the hair on their scalp with your free hand...a form of aggravated assault dreaded by pre-schoolers and those in the early grades. Then there's the old nose-tweak, the ear twist and the fingers in the eyes routine, a la the Three Stooges.

Dreadful stuff!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:15 AM

And do you still resent your schooldays Mr. Hawk? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:22 AM

With a passion!

Stalag 17, I'd call it. I made sure not to have any kids of my own, just to save them from possibly going through a similar experience. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:39 AM

Then there's always the "face flush," sometimes referred to as a "whirley. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:36 AM

Omigod...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

"beware of enfolding your literary and musical efforts within a nationalistic and rigid philosophy that most 'Catters genuinely find abhorrent" (Will)...many Scots have successfully linked Scottish folk with Scottish nationalism, and God's speed to them; in modern England, on the other hand, nationalism has a bad name and the few who lean that way tend to be British, rather than English, nationalists; however, as I've said here, while nationalism with conquest is bad, nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:32 PM

Sorry, David, you used one of the Forbidden Phrases of Automatic Ignorage.

(Check all that apply)

   "I've only questioned the act of immigration itself"

   "my way is a good way forward for humanity"

   "I do love the world being multicultural"

X "nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity"

   "Racism is when you say they are all like this or that."

X "as I've said here" [with link to ghastly Web site]

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM

David - you're merely repeating a mantra that you've repeated over and over and over again, with no facts to back you up. If you can't see that you're anathema to all the 'Catters who've replied to or commented on your idiotic posts - every single one of them - you're an unregenerate fucking idiot. Why don't you realise that you're now a figure of fun, an abject fool whose name is being used as a figure of fun in other threads on this forum?

If there's an award to be given for the most abject, self-opinionated, bigoted, ignorant fucking tosspot in this country - you're the prime candidate, voted for by everyone. Why in hells' name are you posting here?

With that, I leave you to the tender mercies of Spaw - who I hope will deal with you as savagely as possible.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 01:59 PM

Why not just let him post if he wants to, and ignore his thread if you don't find it interesting or agreeable? Why keep coming back to it? What prize do any of you expect to win in this continuing attempt of yours to destroy or drive out the despised heathen who has dared violate the sacred digital soil of this holy realm? ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:23 PM

Ah but, Little Hawk - we are the Acolytes, the Chosen Ones who are the High Priests of the Sacred Mudcat Church. How can we stand by and let our Sacred Thoughts and Philosophies be polluted by the scions of the unrighteous? Are we to stand by, still and uncaring, while the Holy Altar of Mudcat is pissed in by the heathen, recorder-toting hordes of Babylon? NEVER!

Actually, it's addictive, isn't it? Like shooting fish in a barrel - but a fish with no nerve endings. Keeps popping up like a target in a shooting gallery...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

I feel a bit sorry for the poor chap. He might be a deluded, insensitive and deaf to advice, but he hasn't half put up with some jip.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM

LOL! I love your sense of humor, Will. That's been my point all along (seemingly lost on Don Firth, though...he's soooooooo serious about taking on WAV!)...that the people here who are fighting with WAV day after day have acquired an enjoyable Internet addiction that they just can't shake. ;-)

As for me, I've become addicted to dropping in frequently and seeing how it's all going. It's cheap entertainment, and we can all use a bit of that, right?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:24 PM

". . . seemingly lost on Don Firth, though...he's soooooooo serious about taking on WAV!"

You're being smug again, Little Hawk. I generally consider you to be a pretty bright guy, so it really disappoints me when you do your Grand Lama on the Mountain Top act.

Here's the way it works with me, Little Hawk. David has developed an interest in folk music. That's good. So I seriously endeavor to give him good advice on how to go about it. He generally comes back with either some snotty remark, or more often, a complete non sequiter, as if he simply doesn't understand plain English (the native language of his "good English culture") or (and this thought has occurred to me from time to time) that he has a reading disability or is generally just a bit "simple."

When he goes totally off the rails with such things as suggesting that Americans should not sing folk songs from the British Isles or even songs and ballads that are traceable to the British Isles, but do the traditional music of America—"Amerindian chanting and drumming"—in my natural predilection for attempting to keep such willfully blind lemmings (Blind Lemming. Isn't that the name of an blues singer from times past?) such as David from running off the edge of the cliff and drowning themselves in the frigid waters of the Sea of Abysmal Ignorance, I make yet another attempt at getting him to shut his big yap and open his ears.

It is obvious, of course, that such attempts are an exercise in utter futility. Nevertheless, my benevolent nature demands that I press on. I may soon give it up, however, because, God knows, I have better things to do than spend my time and energy trying to rehabilitate the terminally stupid.

Pax vobiscum

Don Firth (note the halo!)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:15 PM

Well I come back, mainly for Spaw!
I never know what he will come up with next. Yes it is cheap entertainment but any laugh is better than a good cry ... and if we don't laugh at this , then we have to cry because sadly there are way too many people out there who actually think this way.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:07 PM

Well, Don, I follow your argument, but I think that your continual verbal tilting with WAV on this thread is itself excessive and out of proportion to the situation. I think your own ego has gotten caught up in personally humiliating the man for the sheer satisfaction of doing so...certainly not to help or enlighten him. I may be wrong about that, of course, but if I am right then I cannot applaud your efforts because they are driven by a sort of sadistic impulse, I think....and that is what I object to about them. It reminds me of stuff I've seen all my life where it becomes a regular habit for someone to pick on someone else, specially in a public setting, specially when a group of "friends" do it to someone they perceive as outside the group.

I don't think, Don, that any of us are imbued with the personal authority to ultimately judge the worth of another human being. We can offer an opinion on the quality of some piece of work they have done, we can offer an opinion on the veracity of something they have said, but we cannot ultimately judge their worth as a human being. We don't have the right to do that. That's why there are pretty explicit instructions in all the great religious philosophies of the world not to judge others.

Plain and simple: I think you are taking it too far in your personal attacks on WAV. You are able to do so comfortably because you are an insider here at Mudcat, and he is not. Were your roles in that respect reversed, you would not be able to do it comfortably.

Were Spaw not an oldtimer here also and a very beloved one, he would not be able to say the things he does here comfortably either.....although it's clear that he's just screwing around for the hell of it and for the laughs, so I don't take it that seriously.

I am not doing my Grand Lama on the Mountaintop thing. I am observing some of the uglier side of human group behaviour and commenting on it. There's a "swarming" going on here, and WAV is its target.

What I don't get is why he doesn't just leave, given his reception here? I certainly wouldn't stay if I was him. It's puzzling, and it makes me wonder sometimes if he's playing the whole thing for laughs himself? But it's hard to figure that he would have built up that entire website as a joke.

The whole thing is really odd. I think a panel of psychologists would have a field day analying the activities of people on this thread. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

And olddude has a grasp of the other aspect of it. When some nincompoop or would-be overlord spouts racist and nationalistic ideas—ideas that are aimed at limiting the freedom of people to live how and where they wish, limit their ability to support themselves, and even goes so far as to prescribing what sort of art and music they be allowed, and not be allowed to make or enjoy—then those who recognize the nature of the evil being advocated have an obligation to speak their minds on the matter.

There was a nasty-minded little twerp with a funny postage-stamp moustache who spouted the same kind of ideas over seventy years ago, and not only were there an insufficient number of people who stood up to him, but there were large numbers of people who either ignored him, hoping he would just go away, or actually agreed with him sufficiently that they voted the little weasel into office. Then, the rest of the world had to deal with him, and it wasn't very nice. Lot's of people died before it was all over.

Whenever it rears its head, call if for what it is. Otherwise, you share the blame for what may happen.

Don Firth (note the flaming sword!)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:12 PM

Oh, piffle twaddle. You are sounding more and more like Joe McCarthy to me, rooting out the hidden Reds in our midst and saving civilization.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

That's bullshit, Little Hawk. You really are trying to pick a fight with me, aren't you? After all, a number of times you have addressed your comments on this thread specifically to me.

If you agree with the position that David has taken (and I have reason to believe that this might be the case), then have the courage to say so in open forum, and, of course, be willing to take the flak that it will draw your way. I'm sure that David would appreciate the support. Otherwise, all you are doing is sniping from off-side--or rather, from "above it all."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:33 PM

rooting out the hidden Reds
Weird. I read that as "hidden Reels" on first viewing and started wondering about samizdat folk dancing.
To be honest, I'm beginning to wonder myself about WAV's make-up. No normal person could take the level of criticism that's been levelled at him and still keep coming back with the same old tosh. There must be something truly dysfunctional about him, and I would be intrigued to see him in a social situation to get a real measure of the bloke.
Which leaves one with a dilemma. What is the form for dealing with some who is, shall we say, 'special needs', but who happens to hold views which are unacceptable to others? I could maybe liken it to dealing with someone who has particularly marked Tourette's. Is it best to ignore, to admonish, to encourage? Help!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM

Hi LH; you may well have a point about the 'swarming' behaviour; but could it be that such swarming is not necessarily malicious nor ill-intentioned? Reasding a few of Don's posts, among others, I can see a lot of genuine attempts to help WAV to understand the gross illogicalities of his positions and also the reasons why he tends to piss people off. This isn't malice in my book; the guy has no job, and if his on-line persona is anything to go by, some fairly big barriers preventing him getting one. If he were to listen and learn, at least some parts of his life might improve (hopefully including his playing, singing and poetry). If he was engaged in a dangerous activity which threatened his life, would we all still be 'swarming' if all of us exhorted him not to do it?
What seems to draw the indignation and occasional abuse seems to be when WAV (either deliberately or in genuine ignorance) refuses to engage with the substance of what is being offered, instead falling back on tired mantras from his website or obtuse interpretations of ill-researched ideas. When people have taken the time and trouble to try to help, it is infuriating to have their efforts treated with such disdain and sometimes outright rudeness.
I'm with Don on one thing in particular; the neo-Nazi National Front are gaining ground in my country, as in others across Europe. The far-right, racist British National Party are beginning to win seats in local elections. WAV's views are shared by these people, and they tend to trawl the web for anything that supports their twisted ideologies. Don't be surprised to see WAV quoted in their propaganda as a source of support. If we learned anything from the rise of Nazism, surely it was 'nip it in the bud'? It's overstating the case to suggest that WAV is a major player in the advance of neo-Nazi ideologies; but the principle here is to address these ideas in any available forum, and expose them for what they are.
This forum is largely democratic in nature; what we have here is the equivalent of a landslide; individual choice is exercised, and we have one vote for WAV, and virtually all the other votes against. We would accept that as a valid election result, so why not here?
Respectfully
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:55 PM

Serious for a moment, David when I read your poems, When I see the description of the ponds and the swans, the local tavern. it just strikes me that you can write. Why write things that offend so many people and cause this reaction? I think you are capable of writing poetry that people would feel good when they read it, to make life a little better in a world that is troubled. Why write about things that others find so offensive. It just is not productive and just causes more pain. You are capable of good imagery and I bet you could do some beautiful things. But this work is not really worth reading for it only causes others pain and hence a very bad reaction back to you. I wish you would consider what I said. I bet you would find a far different reaction here at Mudcat. People here are the first to support any artist who really trys to make life better and art better. They are the first to stand up for those who cannot defend themselves, hence the writing so far strike such a bitter reaction. Why now use the imagery that you do possess to make life better or more enjoyable to others. I bet you would see the total opposite reaction with people bending over backwards to help you.

Please simply consider it. You are capable of much better than this

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM

Well said, gentlemen.

You see, Little Hawk, there are people here who do get it. So why don't you climb down off your mountain and take a closer look? Get a clearer view of what's really going on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM

"The far-right, racist British National Party are beginning to win seats in local elections"

But as their entire membership list has just been published on-line, they may be thrown into a bit of disarray for a wee while...funnily enough, these racists are not liking being named and shamed. Wouldn't you think that someone who feels strongly enough to join
a political party would be happy to stand up and be counted?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:54 PM

Don's right LH - to get an accurate picture of something it's essential to view it from more than one point of view. Yours is valid, so is Don's. Mine is obviously vastly superior to anyone's because I'm up here and you're all down there. Just live with it - I have to. :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:14 AM

An aside; re Ruth Archer's comment about the BNP membership list; it's on wikileaks if anyone wants to look. I couldn't resist, and discovered a bit of savage irony. In 1936 my paternal grandfather organised a protest about a march by Oswald Moseley's fascist Blackshirts through my home town of Oldham. This culminated in a conflict, and 100 or so uniformed Blackshirts being thrown out of town by 25 or so working men (plus a couple of off-duty policemen). I wrote a song about it, and it's a proud moment in the history of my family, so imagine my surprise to discover that there is a BNP activist living in my grandfather's old house. The world turns...
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:44 AM

Did you notice if our former friend Dave Hannam was on the list?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:00 PM

Paul; yes, he's there. Deputy Treasurer of the party, no less!
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM

"but he hasn't half put up with some jip." (Stigweard)...as do many in modern England who dare to question immigration, and support nationalism; in 1950s England, however, my views would have been far less radical. Net migration alone has gone up by 1.8 million under New Labour - Blair, Brown, Darling, etc. all left Scotland for England and have supported so many others who wished to do similar. They didn't "fix the roof" (Brown) while the economic climate was good, they did, rather, let in this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for.
Blair said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...yes we do - this time, with eco-travel and fair-trade with other nations, rather than imperialism and conquest (which I hate, Don, Tim, etc. - be it Nazi, Victorian or any other).

And Don - instead of again distorting, amongst other things, my reply to your question on what music I think you should practise/perform (in brief, I said I'd probably try country/rock; and listen to Amerindian music, as I do now via the web), why don't you go ahead and do some recording for us?

"What I don't get is why he doesn't just leave, given his reception here?" (LH)...readers who don't post (the ones who do are mostly pro-immigrationists) have minds and mouses of their own - I do want a lot to read my life's work as I'm sure it's a good way forward for humanity.
But, to Olddude, a LOT of the 230 pieces in this collection are simple travel poems and songs...I said in my blurb that I've attempted to be "humoruous, informative and didactic".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

We shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves, we should be fighting our common enemy . . .

THE JUDEAN PEOPLE'S FRONT!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

Errr...Wav; where did I mention imperialism or conquest? A little to quick to trot out your trite little mantra there, I think. Please read my post again, slowly and carefully. Try not to skip the bits you don't fully understand.
I wasn't implying you are a Nazi sympathiser either. What I said was that far-right groups like the BNP and the National Front hold views identical to yours, whilst also claiming that they are not racist, despite a string of convictions for racial crimes. They trawl the web looking for those of a like mind, and your views and 'life's work' are likely to end up as BNP evidence of support for their warped ideology. If you are comfortable with that, carry on promoting your utterly discredited websites; if not, pipe down and remove the offensive material. This is good advice WAV; I've seen very bad things happen to people in exactly this position, and I'm trying to help you here.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM

in 1950s England, however, my views would have been far less radical

It was an English government in the 1950s who invited many thousands of Jamaican workers to this country - the "Windrush" period - to help with the economy in the post-war period. Don't crack on about what was acceptable or unacceptable in the 1950s. I was there and you very much weren't. You haven't got the faintest idea what English culture and life was all about in the 1950s, or how the post-war period, for example, was very much affected in all sorts of ways by those returning from the experience of WW2. You can't imagine how people's ideas and philosophies in the '50s were coloured, for example, by the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, of Belsen. It affected those who'd lived through it as participants - and their ideas, mores and feelings affected how they coped with family life and their own children (such as me). You haven't got the weeniest concept of how it was in England in the 1950s. You were born on 1966 - I was married and just starting out as a professional musician in that year. I do remember the '50s and it was never the Golden Age of English Nationalism you've imagined it to be - never. Idiot!

You prove, once again, that you know nothing.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM

It's obvious that Franks is stuck irrevocably within his website and with his head up his arse. He's totally hidebound and, I suspect, deranged. I leave him to his delusions.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM

I can just imagine some disgruntled racist coming across such inflammatory bullshit as English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers and not only do they believe it, but it gives them the excuse they've been looking for and they go out and act upon it. One day it'll happen, if it hasn't already.

Let's not be fooled; Wavy is peddling, promoting and defending racial hatred. He is determined, self-righteous, and accountable to nothing but his insufferable arrogance. The fact that he isn't English is the supreme irony; basing his entire concept on a fantasy of the more-English-than-it-is-now 1950s and resolutely refusing to assimilate into the multi-ethnic reality of English society and culture as it exists today.

as do many in modern England who dare to question immigration, and support nationalism; in 1950s England, however, my views would have been far less radical.

this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for.

From now on? Don't believe a word of it; Wavy's agenda of racial hatred and ethnic cleansing is implicit in every word he has published and promoted, and every word he has written in its defence. This man is pure evil.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

I will record in my own good time, David, and when I do, the songs I record will be ones I have been singing to audiences for a good fifty years. I will also include songs I have learned just recently. I have yet not decided which songs I will record (I'm making a list, and I hope, eventually, to record my enter repertoire, but that will take a bit of time), but the songs I sing have been—and continue to be—drawn from a variety of sources and cultures:   England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, plus Anglo-American songs and ballads, including love songs, cowboy songs, railroading songs, sea chanteys. . . .    If it was collected by Bishop Percy, Sir Walter Scott, Francis James Child, Cecil J. Sharp, the Lomaxes, the Warners, et al, I consider it fair game.

I can assure you that I will most emphatically not be recording any county/rock. And "Amerindian" music is simply foreign to me, even to listen to except briefly, and simply does not "speak" to me the same way songs from the list in the above paragraph do—those are the songs of my culture.

In the movie "The Agony and the Ecstasy," the Pope (played by Rex Harrison) complained bitterly to Michelangelo (played by Charlton Heston) up on the scaffold busily painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, "Buonarroti [Michelangelo's last name], when will you make an end!??" To which Michelangelo responded from on high, "When I am finished!!"

That's when you'll have a chance to hear my recordings, David. When I am finished! I will be singing a variety of songs from a variety of cultures, I will be singing them on pitch, and most of them will be with guitar accompaniment.

You probably won't like them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:16 PM

David
your point to me is well taken. i have not read all of your work. I can only say that I think you can write, you have good imagery, I think your travels would be interesting to many folks including myself. I think some of the areas you get into are beneath you or any writer. If you think about others and how you would feel or do feel when everyone comes at you then you can understand that it is wrong to do. Please don't do that. I would like very much to read your poems with your travels and description of nature. It is beneath any artist writer or musician to write words that walk the line in area's of intolerance of others. The world has enough of those people. Hate only creates more hate. Do what you are good at and describe your travels and your take on nature. Just my suggestion for what it is worth. I have no writing skills but if I did, I would want to write about that which people will respect and remember. You do have that skill and I will leave you with that thought

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM

Will,
Don't you remember the buxom barmaids and the teas on the cricket green, and quaffing mead merrily while all these johnny foreigners lived in their own good culture, which we all admired and found quaint but un-English, and we saw pictures of them on Pathe Pictorial and laughed at their antics, and then went home to all sing round the piano which played the melody line only...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM

Ah Stu - how you bring it all back to me... the mead was particularly good, as I recall. Funnily enough, so was the Pearl Carr & Teddy Johnson version of "Sing Little Birdy" and Max Bygrave singing "I'm a Pink Toothbrush". All good clean fun.

Mind you, there was that black Ray Ellington who sang on the Goon Shows - and that Dutchman, Max Geldray, who played jazz on his harmonica. Sullying our Good English Culture and polluting the folk singing of our Good Kathleen Ferrier!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:13 PM

I'm a pink toothbrush ???
somehow I missed that one, it is something like I'm a little teapot?

Ok, I tried, I made my plea ..

Will, Will , Will

hey put up some more video's ok they are great and that is no joke
good stuff

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

You want videos? There's over 100 of the little devils on YouTube at:
YouTube - Will Fly

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:46 PM

yea I think they are great, will check them out, I only saw 1
very cool, look forward to the others
thanks

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

WaV, the days of British imperialism and conquest are long over. Read your history books. It couldn't happen even if we all wanted it to. As for your being pro-nationalism, nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with 'eco-travel' or 'fair trading'. Nothing. That is just your attempt to mask something inherently evil behind good intentions. To say your intentions are merely clueless and idiotic is being very generous indeed. Nationalism is but one step away from racism and fascism, and is an attitude which needs to be stamped out. Everywhere. If you don't understand why, you have an awful lot of learning to do before you open your foul mouth in front of decent, well intentioned people again. You are abusing the privilege of free speech and insulting the memory of people who fought, died, were tortured.. whatever.. to give YOU that privilege. (Not to mention a free lunch every day) This forum is an extension of that same privilege, and I take my hat off to the powers-that-be that allow you to continue to abuse it in this manner. I honestly don't know whether I could exercise that much tolerance.

On the other hand, it's probably beneficial to us all to be aware that **n*s like you actually exist out there..

Don't go troubling yourself to reply to me, it's quite satisfying enough for me to know you've read my post. I feel so much better for having given you my opinion - thank you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:07 AM

wfwbr----------Let me try one last attempt at a serious post. to you. I dunno' why but I'm a glutton for punishment..............

You are not English.....You were simply born there. Do you have any real memory of the short time you lived in England after your birth? No, you don't. The two things that shape us are genetics and environment, most often called nature and nurture. No one questions your English genes, if you indeed have a mother and father of English descent. But that doesn't make you English. Your entire life was spent in Oz. Australian not by birth but by history, not bu nature but by nurture. Your life was spent living the good Australian culture and probably some sub-culture as in Western Australian or whatever.

Step back and tell me that is all meaningless to you. If you can you're an ass. We are who we were reared and are products of that environment. Try as you might you cannot become a Yorkshireman any more than I can.   You can't be a Londoner or a Frenchman or a New Yorker either and believe me, you stand out for your difference where you are as much as if you were trying to be Japanese in Kokura. You're an Aussie.

I grew up in eastern Ohio in the United States. In my young adulthood I moved here and there and my job took me to various places to live and I loved them all I think. I lived in Chicago and Chattanooga, Charlotte and eastern Kentucky, Atlanta, and Nashville. I had very short stays (3-4 months) in New Orleans, New York, and Los Angeles, when my company had me troubleshooting lower performance regions. I loved something or another about all those places and did my best to sort of fit in as best I could but I could never be a Tennessean anymore than you could. Its a great place and I wish I'd grown up in Nashville but I didn't and though I loved the place and tried to be a good citizen of Nashville, I was an Ohioan. Then one day after much soul searching I decided to "move home."

I now live about 75 miles from where I was born. Same place, different name.........eastern/central Ohio is always eastern/central Ohio. Its not the greatest place in the world to live......but its the place I know best and where I can be honest......and be me. Now you don't have to move back home to be honest, but that, young man, is what life is about......honesty.   The first person you need to be honest with and about is yourself.

You can live wherever you want and enjoy it but you need to be honest about who you are. You can't sing as though you are someone you're not. Don Firth lives in the northwest USA and I have no idea if he was born there but Don is honest about who he is and can sing about places and people far away from himself and his history because he sings with honesty. Will Fly sings with honesty. Most of those who have tried hard to help you out a bit are probably much the same. Ruth Archer has taken a giant plunge into English traditions and culture but I can tell simply by reading her words that she knows well the person she is.

There are others on this thread like Hawk and myself who continually question ourselves about who we are and are we being honest to that person within......if we could just figure out who is within. But even that makes Hawk honest about himself and with hinself except for a minor complication related to Winona Ryder.

You come off as phony in everything. Whether it is in your poems or in your music or even (and especially) the character you present here, you are a liar. You can't sing the songs of anyone or anywhere as a liar because liars present only the mechanics and generally even that badly. Watching, reading, and listening, to your pathetic affectations gives your "audience" here the distinct impression you haven't anything at all inside. You are a shell without real substance and you are trying to wear the clothes of another, not your own culture and they don't fit. Its obvious to one and all..........except for you.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:29 AM

An earlier post from someone was right. Regardless of the content of WAV's beliefs, this thread is bullying.
A bunch of people log on regularly to punch a punching bag, sometimes posting nowhere else. The lynch mob is always a mob, even when it goes after someone who is 'really' 'guilty'. Scapegoating never says something positive about the community that tolerates it.

Many complain that WAV won't change his views. After more than 1000 posts, you are still trying?! Who's the dupe? Who is the more stubborn? Wake up to human nature and reality--even persuasion from right-thinking speakers in the name of justice doesn't work unless it is persuasive. The attention here quite obviously serves as encouragement; it is not effective persuasion.

If one person refuted objectionable posts each time, and others added their views about other topics to other threads, the objectionable thread would sink off the bottom of the page quite fast into deserved silence and temporary oblivion.

If you are really concerned about standing up against racism and crypto-racism,--well worth doing, of course--do it where it counts. There are more appropriate and effective forums for free speech, debate, and refutation.
And Spaw, using WAV as your punching-bag pretext for entertaining others with unbridled foulmouthery is a meretricious, equally attention seeking misuse of free speech--taking advantage of a license allowed to no other posters. I say clean it up.

Right, I'm outta here--hat, coat, suitcase, ticket, and a clothespeg for my nose so I don't smell that stench of this thread anymore.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:08 AM

Regardless of the content of WAV's beliefs, this thread is bullying.

It's not WAV's beliefs that are at issue here, it's the fact that he publishes and promotes them. Free speech is one thing - publishing inflammatory racist lies is quite another, as is co-opting folk and traditional music to his vile self-righteous reactionary cause.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,stigweard working out and about
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

"You are not English....."

He is what he wants to be. No-one can dictate anyone else's identity, and they don't have the right to question some else's sense of who they are.

"You can't be a Londoner or a Frenchman or a New Yorker either and believe me"

What? You have to be English to be a Londoner? Identity isn't that simple I'm afraid.

If he feels English, if he feels this Island is home then not one person can tell him it isn't. If WAV is posting his views here honestly at least he is being himself, however repugnant we find them.

See those 10,000 tossers on the BNP list? Most of them will be Engish. WAV is not alone in his views unfortuately.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:34 AM

WAV is universally reviled, get that through your head peregrina and maybe you will understand.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM

It's very easy to do what peregrina has done, which is - more or less - to fly over the crowd, crap on it from on high, and then fly off before anyone can take a pop. However, peregrina raises an interesting dilemma.

I've reflected considerably on how one deals on a discussion board with someone like Franks, i.e. someone who spouts what I and others believe to be vile views, filled with stupidity, bigotry and racism masked under a superficial cloud of buzzwords such as "eco-travel", etc. One can:

1. Expunge him and his views completely from the board
2. Go all out and attack him and his views remorselessly
3. Reason and debate with him on the views that he holds
4. Ignore him and his views in the hope that they will fade away

The problem with a bigot like Franks is:

(a) he is totally thick-skinned and impervious to reason and comment - amazing in someone who knows so little about most of the things that he writes about and who is so untalented

(b) he regularly uses this board and many others to promote his views

(c) he uses no facts or other sources to back up anything he writes but refers constantly back to his website, which is the hide he has wrapped around him

(d) the nature of Mudcat is that it allows a freedom of debate and opinion - for better or worse (and hurray for that)

I've done a bit of research and seen that Franks posts on other discussion boards and websites - and gets much the reaction that he gets here. So we have a choice. We can either do what peregrina suggests, and just let him fade away, or we can say to ourselves "he may spew his rubbish all over the net, but we're not going to let him get away with it unchallenged here".

On balance, I think I tend to the second course of action. We can't help what he does elsewhere, but it somehow seems wrong to just let him say what he wants to - over and over again - without challenging it. People may think a mountain is being made out of a molehill and that it's all just a waste of time. However, one of the features of the Mudcat style is that it does test the individual. It illustrates the old musician's saying, "You may be good, but there's always somone out there better than you." In short, if I post something that's wrong or controversial, someone on Mudcat will inevitably put me right. Why should someone like Franks therefore, who spouts abhorrent philosophies, be allowed to rest quietly and go unchallenged?

It's a decision that individuals have to make for themselves.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Stiggy, I must have done a piss poor job of making the point because I don't disagree with you.

I believe that anyone can be who and what they wish if theyre first honest about themselves. I DO NOT believe WFWBR has ever been honest and fails to take his history good or bad into any account. That is my most generous view of his actions. If not that then he's the person he portrays here and if that's honest.........he deserves what he gets. I would hope instead that in his headlong rush to be "English" he would take his other and real roots into account and the actual and real country he tries to make home.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

Will, I think there's a middle way among the alternatives that you propose.

If the posters here would, say, adopt one agreed form of words such as:

'these views do not represent any kind of consensus on mudcat and most find them unacceptable. We let them stand only because we value freedom of expression.'


--then one person posts it each time, the first one who opens the renewed thread, each time the thread comes to the top. No fruitless debate, the unacceptability of the views is clear to any visitor and the thread sinks until WAVs next post receives the exact same answer.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Peregrina - I agree that that's a sensible and reasonable course and action. Trouble is, I just wonder if it would work - given the nature of this particular individual - and given the nature of the 'Catters. I think more than a modicum of collective self-control is necessary!

And thanks for flying back. :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:21 AM

Peregrina; agreed, and the form of words looks good to me.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:25 AM

peregrina, won't work. If we stop posting, he'll just post more of his ruddy "poems".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:33 PM

To me, these are the words (Franks's) that show his true nature. He says that the current government have sanctioned:

this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for.

Thanks to IB for reminding me of this. The phrase "...hoping for the ethnic vote" reveals so much, doesn't it? It just shows that it's not immigration per se that Franks is against - it's the ethnic, i.e. racial difference. I don't think the current government has many morals, but even I can't see them encouraging immigration just to get more votes. What a vile, sneering and stupid statement. As far as the idea "...that many citizens...are going to pay for" - Franks won't be paying. He's being paid for.

And wildlife? Where does that come from?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

I have been trying to find the BNP list without success,is wav on it, where can it be found?
I believe WAV said he was a supporter of The English Democrats,I am not sure of the difference between the two,presumably there is a difference,does anyone know?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

From what I see going back through the posts, many people are trying to appeal him to change. Now if he does or not that really is his decision. I only hope he does, it would be nice to be able to discuss with him a poem that is worth the time to read. A person will do what they want I guess, I cannot in honesty fault the negative feedback . The people here that said the harsh things are very good people just outraged. I wish David would take my advice and that of others. It would be nice to have a conversation on his work that was positive and productive to him. I completely understand the reaction. It is very hard for me to hold back . I find the intolerance unacceptable. I would hope we can help him to change his thinking and strive for work that will enrich others lives as art is meant to do. I bet the reaction would be one of encouragement as I see all mudcatter do for everyone in this community. Some people will not change and then we can only say we tried. Some will take the advice and really think about what they said and how it hurts. I hope the second case is true. I would love to see him change for the better with a work that we could review and encourage.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

At least while he's occupied on here, he isn't out preaching his poison to more gullible people. Confound him with logic; waste his time; let him be a joke; render him harmless.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

"This man is pure evil." (IB)..surely my criticism of New Labour is calm and analytical compared with your "all mother fuckers." And I do, by the way, agree with them, and other political parties, on SOME things - being the realist that I am.
And, to Olddude, with that realism, I have penned "Walkabouts: travels AND CONCLUSIONS in Verse", which I stand by. And, if and when you do read it all, you will NOT find any "hate" of any particular culture/race - just a questioning of the ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF.

"Nationalism is but one step away from racism and fascism," (Smokey)...it is to mis-led pro-immigrationists like you or, at least, you deliberately try to paint it that way, because you don't like immigration being questioned; and, in saying that, you not only offend me but all the many members of Plaid Cymru, the SNP, etc. Nationalism with eco-travel and fair trade, rather than greedy imperialism and conquest, is NOT racist or fascist, and, further more, I'm very sure it will make our world a more peaceful interesting place.

And, as I said last post, it remains mostly, not solely, a group of pro-immigrationists using various, some of them disgusting, tactics - because in some of my poems and posts I've dared to question immigration; and, by the way, IB's above remark was because, over the last year or so, New Labour themselves have questioned and regulated immigration more. He, as with a few others here, really does hate immigration being questioned - but, as I also said in my last post, those who read without posting here have minds of their own...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

I am neither a pro nor an anti-immigrationist. The only ist I am is a multi-instrumentalist. I stand by what I said about nationalism - all of it, not just what you quoted. You should, however, be aware that I regard nationalism as a concept, not a bunch of people. Ists and isms are two different things.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

"this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for."

Bingo. Let me ask a question you have neglected to answer in the past: You say that British citizens are going to have to "pay for" this record amount of immigration. How have you helped the current economic situation by coming to Britain? And who is contributing more to English society, an immigrant who comes here and pays his way, or a "re-patriate" who lives on the dole?


Have you actually visited the BNP website, David, as you've been asked to do in the past, to see whether their views reflect your own? If not, why not, when you expect people to follow the endless links to your website?

I once posted a list of statements from the BNP website and asked if you agreed with them. Characteristically, you would not answer. So let's try again:

1. "IMMIGRATION - time to say ENOUGH!

On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years.

To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question."

Agree or disagree?


2. "We will also clamp down on the flood of 'asylum seekers', all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries."

Agree or disagree?


3. "We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people. To that end we will restore our economy and land to British ownership. We also call for preference in the job market to be given to native Britons."

Agree or disagree?

4. "We will end the practice of politically correct indoctrination in all its guises and we will restore discipline in the classroom, give authority back to teachers and put far greater emphasis on training young people in the industrial and technological skills necessary in the modern world. We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain."

Agree or disagree?


And don't be a pedant - feel free to substitute "English" for "British" - just tell us whether you agree with the sentiments or not.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:46 PM

because in some of my poems and posts I've dared to question immigration

Because, for the umpteenth time, you consistently question immigration on racist grounds.

What would your response be if a million English expats immigrated from Canada or Australia or Spain? Would you question their immigration? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

David
if you stand by your views then I can only say that I will not continue reading, it is sad, I read you imagery and I see good things there, then off on the immigration. if you are going to do that you take away the beauty that you paint. You can stand by your views and your work. But sadly I cannot read them further. I don't get it, it is a waste of talent I think and you don't do yourself service. So I bid you good luck, I will not visit again.

   Down and along an escarpment,

    Meanders a thin stony path;

    Beside which grow the camellias -

    Beaut. autumn-blooms the aftermath.

    With the evergreen-camellias

    Are a range of native species;

    And, atop the leafy hillside,

    A shop sells snacks, coffees and teas.



    Plus, down below, there is parkland,

    Where couples rest as children play;

    And they walkabout the fish ponds,

    Or the shoreline of Yowie Bay.


(But, with more thought over the years,

   I'd say - natives not camellias.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM

And if anyone doubts my motives for being here, THIS is what motivates me. From the BNP manifesto:

"Torch bearers of culture

The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island's richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM

WAV you've invented a group of tormentors called pro immigrationists on this forum. They don't exist except as a bizarre defence of your postings, or to be charitable perhaps as a figment of your paranoia.

We've generally welcomed you in your earlier posts; some have defended you to others. Many have offered you friendly advice, mostly rejected (although I'm delighted to see that your e.g., count is down and your punctuation is improving). Some have shared personal difficulties and aspirations with you which you have then used as a stick to beat them with - for example IB and DF.

Many people have lost patience with your desecration of this valued and erudite forum: hence the attacks.

However you feel your attitudes are, it is your presentation of those attitudes that give us the yardstick to measure you by. If you believe you are misrepresented, it is your own posts that are misrepresenting you.

You could learn so much from Mudcat. Most of us have.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:23 PM

Yet, thankfully, there is no David Franks on the BNP's 1997 membership list. Maybe not even he is that daft.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:45 PM

But looking at the statements of the BNP that Ruth has posted above, it looks to me as if David has quoted most of them practically word for word.

One can be in total sympathy with a particular cause without being a "card-carrying member."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:35 PM

"Yet, thankfully, there is no David Franks on the BNP's 1997 membership list. Maybe not even he is that daft. "

Maybe they're not that daft..
Anyway, do they allow foreigners to join?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

Hello Thready's, just scanning one of the biggest threads onlist here for the first time, and some of the BNP material quoted below I find interesting. My apologies for not reading the *whole* thread or catching all comments and I'm guessing these thoughts will echoe others, but I'm only becoming vaguely aware of British fascists appropriating traditional English culture to their cause, and that very recently. De ja vue? I seem to have a faint recollection of hearing about something similar happening in Germany a couple of generations back... I've also been curious recently to discover that there seems to be a virtually overtly fascist element in some modern folk, with so-called 'industrial folk' music. Which appears to philosophically identify with Nazisms Volk movement. Is this a big problem in todays folk movement, and is it a growing one? And if so, what's to be done?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

being the realist that I am

You are many things, Wavy - a realist, however, is not one of them.

with that realism, I have penned "Walkabouts: travels AND CONCLUSIONS in Verse", which I stand by. And, if and when you do read it all, you will NOT find any "hate" of any particular culture/race - just a questioning of the ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF.

You persist in this very particular definition of racism whilst continuing to question immigration in the most racist ways imaginable - as others have shown here quite categorically. Your recent comment this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for illustrates this perfectly.

"Nationalism is but one step away from racism and fascism," (Smokey)...it is to mis-led pro-immigrationists like you or, at least, you deliberately try to paint it that way, because you don't like immigration being questioned;

Whatever one's personal feelings on immigration, to question immigration on such entirely erroneous grounds as English culture is taking a hammering (etc.) is racist. Also, to call anyone who disagrees with you on this mis-led (sic) in this respect is typical of the arrogant self-righteousness that is your overriding consideration in all aspects of your Life's Work.   

and, in saying that, you not only offend me but all the many members of Plaid Cymru, the SNP, etc.

Any member of the SNP or Plaid Cymru would be more than merely offended at the suggestion that their cause is in any way, shape or form like yours, Wavy - they'd be justifiably outraged.

Nationalism with eco-travel and fair trade, rather than greedy imperialism and conquest, is NOT racist or fascist, and, further more, I'm very sure it will make our world a more peaceful interesting place.

Further evidence of your Realism no doubt! Such a world could only exist by being policed by a centralised military authority - your Stronger UN no doubt - and interesting is the last thing it would be, with cultures reduced to isolated museum pieces and regulated theme parks. This is your vision of a Nice Multi-Cultural World - bland, static, defined and regulated according to the central rule book. As a synopsis for dystopian sci-fi it works a treat, but only as a background for the struggle for individual identity and resistance to such nightmarish totalitarianism as such as we find in The Prisoner, 1984 and The Wicker Man, all of which feature very WAV-like cultural anti-utopias overseen by a malcontent absolutist authority not unlike the one you're proposing.   

And, as I said last post, it remains mostly, not solely, a group of pro-immigrationists using various, some of them disgusting, tactics - because in some of my poems and posts I've dared to question immigration

You are being questioned because of the racist ideology that is the whole of your anti-immigration policy. It is your stance that is disgusting, Wavy - any opposition to it is to be highly commended.

and, by the way, IB's above remark was because, over the last year or so, New Labour themselves have questioned and regulated immigration more. He, as with a few others here, really does hate immigration being questioned - but, as I also said in my last post, those who read without posting here have minds of their own...

Whatever my personal feelings on New Labour, the fact remains that British / English / Scottish / Welsh / Irish / Manx (etc.) Culture is entirely the consequence of thousands of years of ongoing invasion and immigration and that there is not one single element of Our Own Good Culture or the Own Good Cultures of anywhere that is not derived from somewhere else. Your so-called realism is to misrepresent and mislead the reality of such human & cultural complexities by reducing them to the risible clichés you offer forth as Our Own Culture and Values, which we are somehow in danger of losing. Culture is nothing without People; without People Culture could not exist, yet People can, and do, exist, quite happily, without Culture - Folk Culture especially. People come, and People go; Culture changes; Culture is what IS, not what WAS, nor yet what SHOULD BE. Your vision of culture is about as far removed from the realities of England in 2008 as one could possibly wish, and yet you persist in the notion that this insane fantasy vision is somehow a good way forward for humanity...

But, as with racism, no doubt you've got your own personal definition of realism too...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM

My tuppeny regarding "the hammering of English culture", is that the English themselves hammered it, through 'our' dominator expansionistic Empire. The Empire became bloated on the fat of other nations, it became affluent, lazy and complacent in it's assumptions of natural superiority to all other cultures and races.
In the South-East especially, the English 'aspirational classes' (Ikea and Panini) are to a far greater degree responsible for the abandonment of native culture, in favour of more 'sophisticated' ideals, than any amount of immigrant cultures (who to their credit and our benefit, seem to manage to *maintain their own cultures exceedingly well, outside of their own lands..)

So Loadsa Money loves traditional English folk music now after swilling several pints of continental lager and wearing Chelsea shirts pumped out in some Indian sweat shop...
How intriguing.
The last popular traditional English song I recall these boys singing was "there ain't no black in the Union Jack".
Perhaps the ever generous Mudcatters on here might enlighten these born-again tradionalists, that if they want to be strictly 'traditional' they should be singing ye olde refrain "there ain't no black in the Union Flag", but sadly that 'un don't rhyme.
Which makes it a bit inconvenient for tiny minds.

Still, all bollox aside, I'm very interested in the fascist appropriation of 'traditional English culture', is it a latent problem in folk music, or is it a developing one? What's the deal?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM

The study and collection of folklore (as opposed to just the doing of it by the folk) pretty much began across Europe in connection with Romantic Nationalism.

The beginning of much study of medieval history began in that same wave of fervour, which created 'histories' really myths about the origins of nations and their boundaries, often called moments of primary appropriation.

In reality, as archaeology and linguistics can show, we are a diasporic species, peoples have always moved (we were all nomads once) and language, music and food alike mirror all mirror perpetual cultural contact and exchange.


Now, what would the diet of the isolationist be? No tomatoes, chili, no potatoes, no sweet corn...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM

1400!!!!!!

Sorry. I just couldn't resist.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

Go suck a DachsiePop Hawk.............Wanna' race to 1500?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:37 PM

Hi Peregrina, thanks for your response. My history is pretty shite I must admit (like most stuff!), yet I do recall that there was an increased fascination with all things 'folk' in the pre-war Nationalist movements. A whole political ideology was retrospectively constructed from the fantasy science and fairy tales these dudes were seeking out and telling themselves. Some kinda brilliant auto-hypnosis going on there. And so it looks, same is going on now with modern fascists (the 'Hollohoax'???). I read quite an interesting essay that Jung wrote some time back, about the phenomena of evoking primal cultural archetypes in relation to the German psyches inflation of psychological 'Shadow' during WWII. I know Jung is flawed, but it was thought provoking, and it strikes me that a similar phenomena is potentially ever-looming here too. But especially now.

I think what bothers me, is that neo-fascists may be appropriating a looooooong history of English tradition, to their own minimal reptillian amygdala inspired ends. Still gotta admit to loving an insane blast of Nietszcha now and then though. The 'sex and drugs and rock and roll of philosophy', but I do try to keep it to weekends only.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:46 PM

So...you think you can beat me there, do ya, Spaw? Eat my dust, sucker!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

Erckfeckles, fink I see why this threads hitting the high numbers...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM

"'Nationalism is but one step away from racism and fascism,' (Smokey)...
it is to mis-led pro-immigrationists like you or, at least, you deliberately try to paint it that way, because you don't like immigration being questioned"

To be precise WaV, I don't like YOU questioning immigration on proven racist grounds, repeatedy and in the faces of people you know perfectly well it will offend, whose minds you know you will never change, and who are tolerant and generous enough to allow you to do it ad nauseam. That is a privilege, earned on your behalf by others, and with any privilege comes responsibility. You'd do well to try and understand that principle, because ultimately it is fools like you who cause the loss of such privileges for others in the real world outside your unpleasant little bubble. (I refer to 'privileges' rather than 'rights' as, sadly, we do not have a Bill of Rights in this country.)

"and, in saying that, you not only offend me

You honestly think I care? Go ahead and take offence - it may just make you think.

but all the many members of Plaid Cymru, the SNP, etc.

Why? I can't speak for the Good members of Plaid Cymru, but I know plenty of SNP voters - and quite a few of those are English. I doubt very much if I could find any who would agree with you on the issues under discussion here. I suspect you don't actually know what 'nationalism' means.

Nationalism with eco-travel and fair trade, rather than greedy imperialism and conquest, is NOT racist or fascist

I didn't say it is, I said it is one step away.

and, further more, I'm very sure it will make our world a more peaceful interesting place."

To achieve that, we need to do everything we can to render our 'national' boundaries unnecessary, not just build bigger walls with more restrictions. Your way would merely perpetuate the permanent state of war which the planet currently endures.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:51 PM

Good post there Smoke.....and now I'm off leaving Hawk far behind sucking my exhaust.......and it don't smell none too good.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM

Upshift coming outta' that curve and full throttle towards 1500.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:53 PM

I am rolling now man...........you're way back in the weeds Hawk............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:54 PM

Turbos at full boost and we're just below redline..........I'm flyin' Hawk.........Can you hear me back there?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:59 PM

Wicked up all the way.....really on it.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM

Man, you are one silly focker, Spaw. ;-) Okay, watch this!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM

And this!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:17 PM

Want to see it again?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:23 PM

Aw.. don't make them close the thread - I'd have to go back to beating the wife and kids..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:37 PM

Not too late to start racin' Smoke....and you have the name for it too!!! Join in and catch up............So if the thread is closed..............Does it really matter? Maybe a JoeClone will just delete the stupid and silly posts like these........and all of WFWBR!!!

I'm on the gas and I got it too................

BBBRRRAAAAWWWWMMMPPP.........BBBRRRAAAAWWWWM

poit........ poit.....floop.......poit................

Can ya' dig the stench????



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:44 PM

My nostrils are still choked up from 'Oh Come All Ye Faithful'.. It's enough to put the faithful off coming for life.. "Nostrils?" I hear you ask - well, my ears gave up after verse one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:56 PM

Man, you are good, Spaw, but when it comes to really rank, I think Wavery Davy has you beat on this one. And that's goin' some!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:57 PM

LOL Smokey.....That really is a piece of shit work isn't it? No kidding, I couldn't believe my own ears. He has problems on all fronts but man that one song sums up his musical abilities..........Sums up.....thats' addition, right? Okay, so let's add up the good things.......................



















































..........uh............................it finally ended when I hit the back button? Does that count?

Okay..................let's forget it and go back to the race!

I'm back on the throttle, goin' up through the gears.............

Turn it on.....Wind it up...Blow it out....GTO

WAAAAH-WAH-WAH-WAAAAAH.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:59 PM

Sorry Don.....Almost missed your post......I got this baby really flyin'..........................But I think you're right!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:22 AM

To dream...the impossible dream....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:27 AM

And Spaw flies past on the inside.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:31 AM

Zzzzzzzzzrrrroooowwwwwwwww, he said, on his way to the Good land of Peaceful Slumber.....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:33 AM

Hey-Hey-Hey------------------Ain't called "Smoke" for nothin' are ya'?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:37 AM

"Zzzzzzzzzrrrroooowwwwwwwww,"

I hope you noted the implied Doppler effect.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 06:19 AM

Ruth: I'm an English repatriate, NOT an immigrant, and an English nationalist, not a British nationalist; I agree with our political parties, including the BNP, on some, not all, things - as you can tell from my previous posts or my website.
Minus any recording device, I can't prove that at interviews I've had to put up with "Why ON EARTH did you come back?", "You must be mad!", etc., but I can prove all my many attempts to get work, within an hour-and-a-half of public transport, as I keep the rejection/keep-you-on-file letters in order to keep track of who's who.

Sleepy Rosie: I hate imperialism - be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other; and love our world being multicultural - including English culture.

"But, as with racism, no doubt you've got your own personal definition of realism too..." (IB)...I'd never describe a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute" (IB) or New Labour as "all mother fuckers" (IB) - that's for sure.

And I sped through the rest to...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

(Which, as it happens, relates to Olddudes last post.)

Poem 95 of 230: A GOOD LIFE

To fauna,
    Home-flora.
Sheep for wool -
    Fed till full.
Chooks for eggs -
    Free-range legs.
Milk from cows -
    Should well house:
Better grade
    Can be made.
Fish for game -
    Cut the pain.
Dogs for pets -
    No regrets.
And question
    Castration.

This does say
    Buddha's way,
And Blake's way:
    A good life -
For all life.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

I'd never describe a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute" (IB) or New Labour as "all mother fuckers" (IB) - that's for sure.

If you must quote me at least get it right - the phrase was a bunch of mushy-mouthed mother-fuckers, which is merely my expressed opinion, unlike the inflammatory racist lies you publish and promote at every opportunity, or the further racist bullshit you come out with in its defence.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

No English person I've ever known uses the word 'chooks'.

I agree with our political parties, including the BNP, on some, not all, things - as you can tell from my previous posts

That's quite a feat, considering that the BNP disagree vehemently with all the major political parties - and what we can tell from your previous posts is that you agree specifically with them.

Answer me this: what would your response be if a million English expats immigrated from Canada or Australia or Spain? Would you question their immigration? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 11:58 AM

I'm an English NOT a British nationalist, Pip; and an expat, in your above example, would be repatriating NOT emigrating.

IB - if you keep calling me a "racist" when all I've ever done is question the ACT OF IMMIGARATION ITSELF and NOT any particular culture, then I have to keep reminding how you told us of FRIENDS who make racist remarks at the pub, and that you referred to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:20 PM

DF - let me remind you (yet again) of this phrase of yours:

this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for

The phrase "ethnic vote", in relation to immigration, has a clearly racist connotation. Got it now? It doesn't matter how much you obfuscate or try to put a spin on your beliefs, they are essentially racist - which is why you have been reviled on this forum.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM

IB - if you keep calling me a "racist" when all I've ever done is question the ACT OF IMMIGARATION ITSELF and NOT any particular culture, then I have to keep reminding how you told us of FRIENDS who make racist remarks at the pub

And as I've told you umpteen times, in the land of free speech & the guaranteed sanctity of self-expression no matter how misguided that self-expression may be they are entitled to say what they want for whatever reason; generally as a non-PC wind-up whilst in their cups. What they do not do is PUBLISH & PROMOTE & DEFEND overtly & inflammatory racist bullshit as you do, let alone agree with the policies of the BNP. As for the act of IMMIGARATION (sic) - the one particular culture you are constantly banging on about is ENGLISH culture - at least your rather perverted anti-utopian vision of same; this whiter-than-white-more-English-than-it-is-now fantasy which in the context of the cultural & ethnic landscape of England in 2008 is one of the things that marks you out as a racist.

If you weren't a racist, you'd see things very differently believe you me. Only a racist would trouble over the fecking half.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

Remember, Spaw, it only takes 1 post to win it. Quality, my man, not quantity!

racist - someone who hates other people merely because of what racial type they belong to.

People, I don't think WAV's views on immigration and/or cultural crossover have any bearing on that whatsoever, therefore it is incorrect to call him a "racist", no matter how much it satisfies your inner need to prove to yourselves and everyone else here that he's a very bad person. You're using the wrong word.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:13 PM

David, I told a couple of friends of mine about how you have picked up on the expression "Engrish Frute" (originally part of a joke, and I also told them the context of the expression), and that you keep throwing it back, implying that it is some kind of racist slur or epithet. They both agreed that a) it was not racist in any way, and that b) in the context of the joke, it is pretty funny. But that you are attempting to turn it into a racist slur. So David, my boy, the egg is on your chin.

They also agreed that if this was the best you could do by way of attempting to justify your own blatant bigotry, then you really don't have much.

Both of them are long-time friends of mine. One's name is John Matsumoto and the other's name is Teri Honda (she's no relation to the auto manufacturer, or if so, only very distantly).

So, David, take that and shove it up your "Engrish frute!" (That, by the way, is what John suggested I tell you to do.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:19 PM

"I'm an English NOT a British nationalist"

So WaV, that means you're more restrictive in your sense of nationalism than the BNP. That's some claim pal.. although in a way I have to admire you for publicly nailing your colours to the mast and not being ashamed of your political beliefs - even to the point of actively publicising your own image and telling everyone where they can find you. That's more than most BNP members dare do. You also believe that your proposed barriers should apply to the Welsh and the Scots - though presumably in the belief that it would be beneficial to them? How nice - I'm sure they'll be eternally grateful to you. I hope you have a good explanation ready for them, even though you don't seem to be willing to give us one.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

You? Are ginna try to tell me where I can and canna' live?   I dinna think so!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM

We have Scottish nationalists. We have Quebecois nationalists. We have Basque nationalists.   Why then should we not have English nationalists? ;-) Do the English not rate as having a unique culture because they have been too successful at conquering others in the last millenium? How does it equate to being "racist"? Racism is the hatred of a specific racial type regardless of culture, not the exclusive promotion or defence of a local or national culture.

I am reminded of a parrot and a minah bird squawking at one another from separate cages...

"You're a racist! Squawk!"

"Liar! You're the racist! Squack!"

"Shut up, you feathered racist! Squawk!"

"Pipe down, you avian racist! Squawk!"

Ad infinitum......

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM

Whoo Hoo! Great picture in that last link, Don. By God, it makes me want to pull out my mighty claymore and cleave some vile Englishmen in twain.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

No, Will - I haven't criticized or knocked (as some others on this thread have: Don, IB, "Engrish frute") any particular ethnicity...once again, it's the questioning of immigration itself.
Smokey - I don't like imperialism and monarchism and see my country as England only; and, as I also think that nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade (via a stronger UN) is a good way forward for humanity, I am indeed an English nationalist, who wishes Plaid Cymru and the SNP well with their DEMOCRATIC bids for full independence.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:04 PM

Ah Don.. I suspect your Japanese friends aren't proper Japanese nationalists, otherwise they'd have been deeply offended - it stands to reason. You are bratantry ditheminating lacist plopaganda.

"nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade"

Hitler liked bunny-rabbits - does that make nazism okay?

Subject: RE: thoughts on construction of identity
From: peregrina
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:08 PM

As I've said in this thread before, the first important phase of european folk lore collection is associated with romantic nationalism (the Grimms, Elias Lonnrot, Herder, Fichte). Ideological uses (and misuses) of folk music would be a nice subject for another thread.

I find it intriguing that the focus here is ENGLISH rather than, say, Lincolnshire, Lancashire, Yorkshire or Northumbrian regional ra-ra-ing.

It seems to me that an English identity is oppositional, and is sharpened by the need for definition AGAINST those over a border (to Scotland or Wales). It is, in other words, self definition that is negatively constructed AGAINST a non-English OTHER.

Whereas a regional area identity is far more 'real' in the sense of being associated with specific regional dialect, food, field and farming traditions, vernacular architecture and so forth.

Honestly, I'm not sure why I am bothering to post coherent thoughts here in the middle of a playground name-calling mob.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

"Hitler liked bunny-rabbits - does that make nazism okay?"

No, it simply indicates that being a Nazi was not Hitler's only defining characteristic. This is always important to remember when dealing with other human beings. They are neither as bad as you might like them to be (for the sake of your argument)...nor as good as you might want them to be.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

LH - I don't think nationalism is WaV's only defining characteristic - and I have no real idea how good or bad he is. I just don't like what he says.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:23 PM

Yes, I understand that. What I was really objecting to was the use of a common rhetorical device (and a very popular one), that of pulling Hitler or the Nazis out of your hat while disagreeing with another person over some political point, thus equating them with the most awful stereotype possible in our present culture. I've probably done that myself, mind you, but I think it's being done far too often.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:30 PM

Take your point LH, but I fear subtlety may be wasted on some - I was specifically aiming the question at WaV - possibly the wrong etiquette here. If so, I apologise.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:31 PM

racist - someone who hates other people merely because of what racial type they belong to.

No. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary definition of racism (again):

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

Look at the part after 'Hence'. WAV doesn't hate people from other cultures - nobody's ever said he does. He just believes they pose a threat to English culture and wants to discriminate against them, by stopping them coming here.

As I've said before, we don't say he's a racist because we believe immigration can never be questioned; we say he's a racist because he questions immigration on racist grounds. Earlier on today, I asked him:

what would your response be if a million English expats immigrated from Canada or Australia or Spain? Would you question their immigration? If not, why not?

He replied: "an expat, in your above example, would be repatriating NOT emigrating"

Now, if a million Canadian expats arrived in England tomorrow, they'd cause a lot of social upheaval. They'd want to work, which would tend to drive wages down; they'd need somewhere to live, which would tend to make housing that bit harder to find; and they'd want to stay healthy, which would mean that doctors' waiting lists got longer. Anyone who 'questioned immigration' on economic or political grounds would question it just the same in the case of returning expats - because, in economic and political terms, returning expats have exactly the same effect as new immigrants. But, in WAV-world, a million English-born incomers wouldn't even qualify as immigration.

Let's try a different example. According to the 2001 Census, there are 400,000 British citizens who give their ethnicity as Indian and their religion as Muslim or Sikh. Let's say that about half of them were born in Britain (almost certainly an underestimate). Let's suppose that half of those people get tired of living in Britain and emigrate to India, land of their forefathers. Ten or twenty years down the line, let's suppose that there's a massive revival in Hindu fundamentalism in India; suddenly it's a bad place to be a Muslim or a Sikh. Our 100,000 British-born Indian Sikhs and Muslims dust off their British passports, pack their bags and get the next plane for tolerant old England.

So, WAV: what would your response be if 100,000 British-born Indian Sikhs and Muslims immigrated to England? Would you question their immigration?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:39 PM

...and I have to state the fact again that I hate imperialism - be it Nazi, Victorian or any other; and, accordingly, do indeed love our world being multicultural; and do, accordingly, probably know and respect the world's cultures as well as anyone here (major in anthropology, 40 countries, etc.); and, accordingly, have here at least tried to defend the land rights of Aborigines, etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM

Oo look - he hates imperialism and loves the world being multicultural. Why ever didn't you mention that before WaV?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM

I see that he is being defensive about what he perceives as "English" culture, Pip, and there is indeed such a thing as English culture, and I suspect that most English people are somewhat sensitive or defensive about it in a variety of ways. It would be very surprising if they were not, because all people tend to naturally defend their own familiar cultural values and they experience some anxiety when seeing those cultural values watered down or subjected to outside influence.

That does not equate to being racist.

It's a matter of degree.

Why not just say that you disagree with his views on immigration, and explain how you disagree? What use is it to label him or his views "racist"? There is no defence any human being can advance against an accusation of racism in the present milieu, anymore than there once was any defence against an accusation of witchcraft.

Wait until someone calls you a racist, and you will find out that what I am saying in that regard is true.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM

Smokey, name-calling doesn't really advance the discussion. I'm trying to make things a bit more interesting by bringing in some points of content about the topic rather than labelling. Please join me. I would like to know what you think about the subject rather than the person.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 06:48 PM

"Smokey, name-calling doesn't really advance the discussion."

You're right, P, but after a while on here the temptation is sometimes just too great. I completely approve of your efforts, but which subject? I'm now off out for a few hours, so don't think I'm being ignorant.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:23 PM

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Hence: prejudice and antagonism towards people of other races, especially those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

Game, set, and match.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 08:56 PM

What you have just quoted, Don, suggests this to me:

As paranoia and hostility are clearly common aspects of the kind of fear-based psychology that can result in racism, so is any fear of that which is perceived as different, so it wouldn't be at all surprising if a racist attitude also included ancillary aspects such as "prejudice and antagonism towards ........those felt to be a threat to one's cultural or racial integrity or economic well-being; the expression of such prejudice in words or actions. Also occasionally in extended use, with reference to people of other nationalities."

That does not mean, however, that those aspects themselves can be defined as "racism", merely that they may accompany racism.

Racism is hatred based upon race, period. That's what it is, and that's why it's called "racism". The other things in your quoted definition are many other aspects of prejudice which are reasonably likely to be found in the kind of mindset that naturally is inclined to racism.

This is the same as to say that bank robbers (a very specifically definable group of criminals) are also likely to be:

violent (though probably a few of them are not)
antisocial
ammoral
emotionally unstable
hostile
irresponsible
etc.

Fine. But just because someone is ammoral or antisocial or violent or irresponsible does NOT equate to him being a bank robber, does it?

Neither does WAV's defensiveness about the sanctity of English culture equate to him being a racist, because it is NOT based on race at all...it's based on cultural values. It is English cultural values that concern him, as opposed to Scottish cultural values, Irish cultural values, Indian cultural values, Caribbean cultural values, etc. Those are all a question of custom and mindset...not race...not skin color...not hair color...not any physical characteristic of a person whatsoever.

You can perhaps call him a cultural xenophobe if you want. You can say he's prejudiced if you want. You have no justification to call him a racist. The popularity of the word "racist" in popular dialogue these days is more based upon the devastating power of the word itself to utterly damn and fatally wound its target than on anything else, in my opinion, and that is why it comes up so much in the public dialogue.

This is not true of the word "prejudice". WAV, arguably, can be said to be showing prejudice. He is not showing racism.


To triumphantly say to someone "Game, set, and match." is like delivering one of those snappy sound bites that figure so largely in network news and political campaigns these days. It sounds impressive! It holds no actual content. It doesn't prove anything.

Accordingly, you won't find me saying it.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 10:49 PM

There you go again, Little Hawk. Smug and superior. You stick with your definitions, I'll stick with the OED. I'm not trying to "triumph" over anyone or anything, and I'm not the one who's trying to tell people how they have to live, who they can associate with, and what they can sing.

So just leave me out of your analyses. You still don't get it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 11:07 PM

Forget all that Hawk......... He's a bigot and prejudiced with some elements of racism.............Don't care anymore except to note he's still an ass! So..................

I'm heading for the century marker......................vvvrrrrooooooooommmmmm



Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 11:27 PM

"Racism is hatred based upon race, period."

Racism is prejudice based upon race, it is not necessarily hatred. WaV preaches racial prejudice, not racial hatred. He implies, or perhaps we infer, racial hatred, but doesn't literally preach it. One is no more forgiveable than the other in my opinion.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:36 AM

...WAV's defensiveness about the sanctity of English culture equate to him being a racist, because it is NOT based on race at all...it's based on cultural values

Bollocks. WAV couldn't give a shit about actual English Culture (something he consistently demonstrates he has no understanding of whatever, which is hardly surprising given that he's a naturalised Australian), instead he has fabricated a fantasy of Our Own Good Culture which is specifically designed to exclude, ignore and oppose the multi-cultural & ethnic realities of England. This is not defensiveness on his part, rather an out and out assault on COMMON TRUTH, consisting as it does of divisive lies voiced in inflammatory polemic in order to promote a political agenda of cultural and ethnic purity as he perceives it. When WAV states that English culture is taking a hammering and when people lose their culture society suffers and English was a more English place 50 years ago he is nailing nailing his racist colours firmly to the mast of his sinking ship. Also - If WAV wasn't a racist, none of this would be an issue, let alone the core purpose of his rancid Life's Work.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 05:03 AM

Why not just say that you disagree with his views on immigration, and explain how you disagree?

I have done, several times. The trouble is, I disagree with his views on immigration precisely because they're racist. Yes, it's a very loaded term, but I don't believe any other term fits (see also Oxford English Dictionary).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM

I'll repeat yet again what was posted by many of us earlier up this thread (Franks's words):

this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for

The phrase "perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote" shows me that it's not simple immigration per se that Franks is against - it's the ethnic, i.e. racial difference of the immigrants. Would he use that phrase if the mass of immigrants were, like him, white men from Australia, i.e. from the same ethnic grouping? I doubt it.

And that is why I think that his constant protestations of loving the multicultural world and the like are a smoke-screen - possibly an unconscious one, but who knows - for what are essentially racist views. He also thinks that the promotion of his attitude to culture, especially folk music, which will somehow return us to a wildly inaccurate, Good English Culture of a non-existent 1950s Golden Age - and all the rest of his baggage will be "good for humanity". I can put up with this narrow-minded insanity - if he wants to believe it, let him - but I object to him trying to conceal racist views behind this smoke-screen and peddle them on this forum without being challenged.

Good for humanity, eh... Gawd 'elp us.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 06:29 AM

Peregrina (and/or perhaps other thready posters),

Thanks for offering some thought provoking comments.
Just scanning through here and picking up a little smattering of what you say. Though it's tricky to follow the thread of some of the discussion, due to the high volume of postings here.

If you felt like opening a fresh thread specifically targeting some of the key issues that this thread may have sparked. I for one would be interested to view, and question, and listen to some informed responses.

Cheers, Sleepy Rosie

Subject: RE: The endless loop - or is it a mobius strip
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:19 PM

Rosy, I think a thread discussing the substantive issues separately would be a bit of progress!
Whether those who come in here for, apparently, the exclusive purpose of name-calling would actually want to contribute to a constructive discussion, well, who knows?

Subject: mobius strip smoked out
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:25 PM

Oh, and Smokey, you're a guest, but a regular, why not start a thread about some of your musical interests?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 03:21 PM

I said I would not come back to this thread however for some reason I have. It seems to me that this forum is composed mainly of people who have a love for the arts and offer suggestions, share common goals and have strong moral values towards others from all races or cultures. With that in mind, I would say that anyone posting messages that have elements of intolerance towards others will most certainly be taken to task very quickly. As stated by others this is probably not the place to do it. I am sure there are websites that have followers who believe in only a certain culture, or a certain race or a certain political system. In my short time here at mudcat, nearly to the person, most believe that diversity and multiculture values only bring positive aspects to any society. So the responsiblity and the adverse reaction afterwords rests solely on those who create such post on mudcat. In addition, serious and heart felt attempts to show where and how such things are not welcome, to point out how to improve a body of work, are met with resistance.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 04:12 PM

And the fun goes on and on...just like a Celine Dion song.

Well, let's see now.

Don - We both seem to keep thinking that the other is acting "smug" and "superior", while not feeling that we are acting that way at all ourselves. Ironical, isn't it? Maybe we're both just sincerely saying exactly what we think is true. Consider that. Look for something else besides the very worst in my intentions and WAV's intentions, and I will gladly return the favor. I do not think you are smug, or an ass, or anything bad at all. I just think you should not be calling him a "racist". I think you should find a less vicious label to use in its place.

- Smokey - "Racism is prejudice based upon race, it is not necessarily hatred"

You're absolutely right, Smokey. Thanks for that clarification.

"He implies, or perhaps we infer, racial hatred, but doesn't literally preach it. One is no more forgiveable than the other in my opinion."

Everything and anything can be forgivable...provided one has enough insight into another person's origins and personal problems, and also the willingness to forgive. That does not mean everything is justifiable or allowable, however. Think about the difference between those two, and see if you get what I mean.

What happens when you or anyone refuses to forgive someone else for something they said? Anything good? I don't think so. That doesn't mean, however, that you should allow the unjustifiable to be done when you are in a position to prevent it being done.

- Insane Beard - "Bollocks. WAV couldn't give a shit about actual English Culture (something he consistently demonstrates he has no understanding of whatever, which is hardly surprising given that he's a naturalised Australian), instead he has fabricated a fantasy of Our Own Good Culture which is specifically designed to exclude, ignore and oppose the multi-cultural & ethnic realities of England."

Fine. ;-) What WAV does give a shit about, though, is his fabricated fantasy OF English culture...a fantasy which is obviously 100% real to him. You have to remember that it is real to him, and that in his own mind he is defending what he thinks of as English culture. Therefore it makes sense to him. And this is the case with most people, isn't it? Their lives, in a cultural sense, are largely arbitrary, and ARE a fantasy, based upon centuries of similarly arbitrary fantasies held by their forbears. For this they are willing to enlist in a war, go to another country, and kill people who are defending a different set of arbitrary fantasies.

And most of them are completely unware of how ludicrous and unnecessary that is.

*****

I have compassion for people in general. You know why? I know that most of them know as little as I do and are as vulnerable as I am. As such, they deserve a bit of compassion, even if they are not perfect and even if they occasionally say something stupid or something that indicates some form of prejudice.

To quote that famous line from you-know-where: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 01:05 AM

"Everything and anything can be forgivable...provided one has enough insight into another person's origins and personal problems, and also the willingness to forgive. That does not mean everything is justifiable or allowable, however. Think about the difference between those two, and see if you get what I mean.

What happens when you or anyone refuses to forgive someone else for something they said? Anything good? I don't think so. That doesn't mean, however, that you should allow the unjustifiable to be done when you are in a position to prevent it being done."

Yes Hawk, I do see your point. 'Forgiveable' was a bad choice of word on my part. I should have said "One is no better than the other in my opinion", it would have sufficed, although the difference is nothing to do with the point of my post.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM

In fact, I should have said "One is no better than the other in my opinion", and avoided the opportunity of spelling forgivable wrong :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 01:31 AM

"Oh, and Smokey, you're a guest, but a regular, why not start a thread about some of your musical interests? "

Because I would probably sound like a grumbling opinionated old git and be quite irritating, Peregrina, though thanks for the encouragement.

---

Continuation thread here (click)