Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:20 AM Kent, I used to think that the Bible said "Thou shalt not kill", and that this meant that I shouldn't kill people. But on studying the beliefs of early Christians, I realised that it actually meant that I shouldn't kill people who agree with me, nice people. It's perfectly OK to have your opponents like Priscillian killed when you can't beat their arguments. And that Hypatia (the slut) was just asking to be skinned alive. And then there are the Jews who just won't understand that Jesus saved them, slaves who insist that God made them just as good as us, disgusting fags and libertines.... the list is endless. So I now realise I have authority, nay duty, to kill anyone who transgresses against the infallible rectitude of the Bible, as long as I can get together a big enough gang to make it safe to do so. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: VirginiaTam Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:34 AM Bible written by men who want to live forever. I am 2000 years old... always been a little old soul in an ill fitting suit. I suspect most people are. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:45 AM Lighter: "....Another possibility is that Jesus is referring to the evangelical age that would begin with His resurrection. A third is that the passages are really about the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. You be the judge." I guess it's how you see 'death' and dimensions. The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:51 AM Correction(by omission): "I guess it's how you see 'death', TIME, and dimensions. The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band! OK......now go check it out! If your slick, you'll see it.....unless you're Bobert. He'll try to get Jesus to be a Democrat! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: MGM·Lion Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:53 AM I mean, like, look, you are all being serious, aren't you? This isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up? Oh, well, as my late dearest Valerie used to say: "Play your games." ~M~ |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:17 AM MtheGM: "I mean, like, look, you are all being serious, aren't you? This isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up?" I don't know about 'them' but as for me, I'm dead serious, as I believe Lighter, and Little Hawk are sincere! But the scripture references, are very accurate....but, it may cause some to think deeper...but it's all there! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: theleveller Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:27 AM "I mean, like, look, you are all being serious, aren't you? This isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up?" Exactly my thought! Surely people don't actually believe the stuff they read in the Bible? Never mind there being 2000 year old people living - I'd say that there's one born every minute! |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 04 Oct 11 - 12:04 PM "The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band!" Just read each of those passages; I will freely admit that I don't hear any "bell" ringing out any answer to the little question that led me to tuck my tongue in my cheek and start this thread. I would venture that very few believers in a literal, inerrant Bible would claim to find that particular answer in those passages. I suspect that your "band" may consist of a group who have agreed to accept some esoteric interpretation of those passages, and hold themselves up as particularly wise/and/or spiritual because they "understand" what all those lesser (or merely professing) Christians don't have eyes to see. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 01:56 PM Hey Froggie, I didn't even think for a moment, that you'd see it. It was meant for perceptive, and intelligent people, whose agenda was to look deeper than...oh, never mind...you wouldn't 'get it' anyway! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM Me sorry; me shoun't have even twied. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 03:11 PM Das wight!..You wouldn't have understood it anyway, so don't sprain your brain...either one of them! gfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Lighter Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:12 PM GfS, I have pored over the passages to no avail. They seem absolutely disconnected. Like Frogprince, I'm not in the band. Why should we be excluded? |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Paul Burke Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM You haven't seed the light! If you can't fight, wear a begat. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 04:16 PM OK, Lighter...because I think you are sincere.....Matthew I, what do you see?....Now count them.....everything come out right? GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 11:05 PM Lighter, making any progress? GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Lighter Date: 05 Oct 11 - 07:19 AM Matthew believes there were forty-two generations from Abraham to Jesus. There are twenty-five verses in Matthew 1. That's all I see to count, GfS. What's it mean? |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: EBarnacle Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:10 AM 1: Go back to the original Aramaic for your count. 2: Eat plenty of garlic. It works to stop the Death Angel. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:24 PM I prefer the stories in the original Uncle Remus. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Lighter Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM I dunno. I think "forty-two" and "twenty-five" should be pretty close in both English and Aramaic. That garlic thing, though. I'll try it! Thanks! |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM Count the last 'group of 14'(there are three groups of 14)...then get back. If something occurs to you, then it may be a mind-blower! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Paul Burke Date: 05 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM I don't know why you've let yourselves be dragged into this morass by a serial plonker. He's talking about the old chestnut that Matthew couldn't count: from Babylon to Jesus is 13, not 14, generations. It only matters a spit if you think the Bible is inerrant. Most people, and all people who are intellectually open, don't. Since that Biblical statement isn't true, it's not surprising that Jesus was wrong (or wrongly reported) when he claimed that the Kingdom of Whatever would be in the lifetime of some of those listening. After all, he was a man, and men are fallible. But it is relevant to the other discussion about BC/AD: the computation of Dionysius Exiguus can be taken as symbolic of the fact that Christians had finally given up on the Second Coming. Prior to then, there was no need for a calendar, as soon there would be nothing to date. But to return: if Jesus was telling the truth, where are the bimillenarians? |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Rusty Dobro Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:12 PM Well, there's Sir Cliff Richard for a start...... |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM Paul Burke, you may be right, but if so what does dragging in the other two scripture references have to do with it? I'd just like to see this play out a little; I have a little morbid streak, so sometimes I like to watch trainwrecks. : ) |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 05 Oct 11 - 04:37 PM "if Jesus was telling the truth, where are the bimillenarians?" Like I was saying in the first place; they must sorta be in God's own witness protection program. : ) |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Lighter Date: 05 Oct 11 - 05:35 PM I've verified to my own satisfaction that a generation is "missing." I didn't notice it at first because I accepted the words of Matthew without double-checking. That was pretty careless, I admit. And an idea does strike me: that such a blatant error - trivial or otherwise - appears on the first page of the New Testament, and tens of millions of people still insist that the Bible is literally and infallibly true. That includes well-publicized and well-funded Creationists. It blows my mind. But surely that's not the mind-blower GfS was thinking of. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:01 PM Lighter, The generation ISN'T missing....now refer to the two other scriptures I gave you...and get back...this will be the 'capper' GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from sanity Date: 05 Oct 11 - 09:08 PM BTW, Lighter, use KJV....it's consistent. If you mix them, the terminology might cause you to miss a rather pivotal point. GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Kent Davis Date: 05 Oct 11 - 10:35 PM O.K., Here's the Reader's Digest version of my post of October 3: The premise of the original post is not correct. In the New Testament, the "coming of the kingdom" is not a reference to Judgment Day. See Colossians 1:13,14; I Corinthians 15:24-26, and Revelation 1:5.9. Kent |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:08 PM The "coming of the Kingdom" is a reference to Chongo Chimp's election as the first ape President of the USA. He will usher in a New Age of freedom and equality for all primates. It will happen either in 2012 or 2016. Don't be caught napping when it does! |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM Kent, Without even going to your scriptures, (yet), I already know, that the premise of the thread is misleading, and you are correct! Also, the New testament never says we are going to 'The Kingdom', or that we are even going to a place called 'Heaven'...but it does certainly allude to the 'Kingdom' coming to us! Follow me? Hey, are you digging into what I've given 'Lighter'. Scroll back a few, and go for it! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 11 - 08:13 AM OK. I've scrutinized the three passages in KJV. It appears to be no more or less "consistent" than any other translation.(My first choice was the New English Bible: Oxford Study Edition, because it has lots of footnotes.). The only connection between the passages is that they predict a Messiah will be born. Nothing about frogprince's verse. Still no bells. It's hopeless. I'm happy that you're happy, though. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: John P Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:22 AM I can't tell what's worse -- GfS trying to say something or GfS trying not to say something. In any event, GfS, it's interesting to see someone as mean-spirited, cruel, foul-mouthed, and bigoted as yourself putting yourself forward as a Christian. You've obviously read the Bible a lot; please go back and read all the stuff about love and acceptance again. If I were a Christian I'd be really pissed at you for doing so much to ruin the reputation of my religion. As my sainted mother said of George W. Bush: "That man is no Christian!" |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 06 Oct 11 - 12:46 PM So, we can say that Jesus is counted as a generation, so Matthew comes out right. Is that the mind-blowing revelation? Believe it or not, I'm fully aware of the concept that the kingdom is with us, and within us. But let me drop back a step. Read Matthew 16: 27 and 28, Mark 8:38 amd 9:1,(The chapter division was done centuries later) and Luke 9:26 and 27. Do you think that Jesus was just messing around with his listeners, switching between references to totally different stages of the "plan" without giving them any indication that he was doing so? Context, gentlemen, context . |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: gnu Date: 06 Oct 11 - 02:35 PM They must be very happy that Depends are on sale this week. Of course, they should be reminded that the Senior's Discount does not apply to items on sale BUT they can still use any coupons they have. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM The Apostles were mere human beings, so they could get it wrong. On the other hand, they were guided by grace, so they couldn't get it wrong. But sometimes they seem to get it wrong. That must mean they only appear to get it wrong, but it's really right. But if it's right, why doesn't it make obvious sense? Maybe because it's an incomprehensible mystery we're not supposed to understand. Even though it's presented in seemingly very plain language. But maybe they just got it wrong. And if they could get *that* wrong.... But that's too awful to think about. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Oct 11 - 04:36 PM No, it isn't, Lighter. ;-) It's quite easy to think about. Look, there are a vast number of people in the world who have a high opinion of Jesus and his teachings...some of them Christians...some of them belonging to many other religious traditions...and some of them belonging to no specific religion at all.....who do NOT take the Bible as an inerrant source, and who are well aware that the various books of the Bible came from a great many different writers who were also not an inerrant source. Duh!!! Is this hard to figure out, knowing the general state of humanity in any era, past or present? Your argument, however, appears to be directed at people who DO think the Bible is an inerrant source. Well, where are they? Are there any here? I don't think many of them are on this forum. If there are, then they're probably avoiding responding to you. Perhaps you should go where these people ARE and battle it out with them...or are you just having some fun here kicking around a favorite customary punching bag of yours because it feels so good to do it? |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: John P Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:39 PM Of course, we have Little Hawk once again putting forth unsupported reasons for other peoples' actions. Had you considered the possibility that it's just kind of fun to poke around with these ideas? Or that laughing at people who make themselves into laughing stocks is a perfectly normal activity? Why do you, with no evidence, consistently assign negative reasons to the conversations people have around here? You're really telling us more about how your mind defaults to a position of conflict than about what's really going on. And, yes, there are people on Mudcat who take the Bible literally. GfS, apparently, in this very thread. Counting generations and drawing conclusions from it is certainly a very literal-minded activity. There are other reasons to call attention to the literal Bible folks that don't include mean-spiritedness. One is that most members of one of the political parties in the US, and many of their candidates, ascribe to that view. One of the few weapons we have to keep them from further depredations against our Constitution is ridicule. You say, "Perhaps you should go where these people ARE and battle it out with them.." I would say that if you don't like the conversation, or can't find anything to add that isn't based on your inaccurate suppositions about other people, perhaps YOU should go where others of your ilk are and tell them how negative everyone else is. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Lighter Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:09 PM The OP, LH, was about a question of Biblical literalism, and that what's I've been talking about it. GfS and I share an interest in the subject and a tendency to express ourselves bluntly and satirically. As far as I know, however, we're still on friendly terms. I never attack anyone personally, just some of their beliefs. And as John P says, religious literalism/fundamentalism mixed with politics and a disdain for science and reason can be a dangerous mix. Only one of the Republican candidates, John Huntsman, has even suggested that he might believe in evolution. ("The Republican party can't run away from science.") He's polling at around 1%. Coincidence? Meanwhile, I've heard Obama called "the Antichrist." (Of course, GWB was called that too, but only by people who don't believe in the Antichrist: the anti-Obama people sound serious.) That's not my idea of a healthy political or intellectual environment. Or spiritual, come to think of it. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Kent Davis Date: 06 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM Frogprince, You asked if Jesus was "just messing around with his listeners, switching between references to totally different stages of the 'plan' without giving them any indication that he was doing so"? That is a good and fair question. You are right that context is important. In the context of Matthew 16, there is a lot going on. Starting in verse 13, Jesus asks the disciples what people were saying about him. Then he asks them what THEY think. Peter identifies Jesus as the "Christ", the Anointed One(verse 16). Jesus agrees that he is the Christ, but immediately begins correcting their faulty understanding of what this implied: "From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised." - Mt. 16:21 Peter didn't like this and began to rebuke Jesus, only to be rebuked himself. What a let-down! To be told that the Anointed One, the long-promised Messiah, was standing in their midst, and then to be told that he was going to be killed! That is the context. So, to answer your question: No, I don't think that Jesus was just messing around with his listeners, switching between references to totally different stages of the "plan" without giving them any indication that he was doing so. I think he was explaining the situation to them one bit at a time, as much as they could understand, "stretching" them to a fuller understanding of something that was more profound than they had imagined. Kent |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Oct 11 - 09:59 PM Lighter, Kent, and Little Hawk, We are looking for the 'missing generation', right?...well the two other scriptures I gave, in reference to this,(building off my first post,about 'From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:51 AM Correction(by omission): "I guess it's how you see 'death', TIME, and dimensions. The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band!" Galatians 3:16--"Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." AND Psalms 22:30--"A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation." Now in Matthew is says (Matthew 1:17)17: "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations." The reason you came up with 13, instead of 14 is that you counted 'Jesus' and 'Christ' as ONE generation....but the other scriptures tell you his 'seed' (Christ), was counted as A generation . Now, dimensionally speaking, LISTEN to what the technology discovered, which created a whole new area in science, as a result of these findings, about this whole thing. Keep in mind, this is NOT a religious funded, or sponsored study......but actually started off as something else...completely secular!!! Watch the who thing..it is fascinating.....and very much a WAKE UP call!!! It's NOT what you may think...IT'S BETTER! This is 'Part 1'...each one ends with the next 'part'. You'll find WHERE the generation is......and depending what you 'let in'.....well, you go from there! Take the time, watch the whole thing! Highest Regards, GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM Do, wacka do, wacka do, wacka do... |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:44 PM Froggie, You've been doin' that most of your life, with or without someone else's help. Your post doesn't surprise me. "Out of the abundance of the heart, does the mouth speak". Think about it.....if you can. GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 06 Oct 11 - 10:47 PM Once again we have proof that you can "decode" anything out of anything, if you are inclined to do that instead of simply reading what the author is saying. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: frogprince Date: 06 Oct 11 - 11:02 PM Gfs, I will have to agree with you on this: When we are talking about the discovery that to understand the Bible we have to know that Jesus and Christ are meant to be recognized as two separate generations.... we are talking about a blown mind. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Oct 11 - 11:52 PM Watch the documentary.... GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Oct 11 - 11:53 PM but one entity! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: EBarnacle Date: 07 Oct 11 - 12:34 AM 14 generations from Abraham. Hmm, must have been long generations. Remember the Egyption visit? All of 400 years, right there. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Oct 11 - 12:55 AM Well, 400 divided by 14 equals 28.57 and a bunch of numbers....it works, for a generation, which a lot of people put as 30 years. Is there a point there? GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: Musket Date: 07 Oct 11 - 08:08 AM I have read a few bits over the years, purely out of fascination, about lifespan of cells, cell mutation, genetic distortion, free radicals etc etc. So... as the evidence would suggest a single sentient human cannot go beyond 130 years tops, even with today's technology propping them up, why are some people taking this thread seriously? I can enjoy a debate based on theology, I can enjoy a debate scrutinising the real world. I am somewhat bemused when some people try to blend the two. Isn't there a word for that? Superstition. |
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people! From: John P Date: 07 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM Ooh, do we get to include the Numerology in the Bible?? I mean, just, think about, it's amazing!!! 14 generations!!! Add the 1 and 4 together and you get 5!!!! Get it?? Try real hard now, think about it!!!! Got it yet??? |