BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

when you ask bobert for the documentation for his assertions.

or is it only the facts you don't like that you want to have evidence of?

I've already seen plenty of documentation for the things Bobert is asserting. I have not yet seen any documentation for the things you are asserting. I'll check out your links.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:41 PM

"Meanwhile, still waiting on a friggin' APOLOGY from susu's Hubby fir callin' me a RACIST fir not buyin' into Bush's PR crap..."


No apology here, Bobster. I guess that means that you're just jealous?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

bobert,

Unlike some here, if I find relevent information, I present it even if somre of it does not support my own desired viewpoint- I look for FACTS.

Care to comment on my 05 Jul 05 - 08:00 PM ?




CarolC,

Lucky you. I have seen no such documentation- it seems I am expected to take what is said as divine revelation, regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM

Yeah, CarolC, you'll love the last one... Apparently someone at Rush's office didn't check it out too well before sendin' it out to all the brownshirts and this one don't make Bush I or Bush II look too good...

I'm kinda surprised that bb didn't bother to check it out before postin' it. He really shouldn't trust Rush's staff these days as word on the street is that more than a few of them are hardcore druggies themselves...

And, just fir the record, unless yer livin' on Mars, bb, the observations I have made arwe very well supported by the Repub conrtolled mainstream media....

As fir violatin' a ceasefire agreement.... ahhhhh, are you talkin' about them occasionally tryin to bring down a foriegn oplane flying over their airspace??? Like maybe you'd like to allucidate on just how many planes they brought down???

As fir violatin UN resolutions??? What a joke... Maybe while yer in the mood, how many UN resolutions are the US and Isreal violating today??? Or have violated in ther last 10 years... Hey, if it makes it easier, jus' round it up to the nearest nummer with a zero on the end...

And don't give me that zero crap 'er I'll turn CarolC on you like the ugly and you'll find yerseff having to hide unner the bed....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

Quagmire? I think not. Kennedy and LBJ put us in a quagmire. Nixon finally had the right idea and got us out. If we had let our military commanders fight the war instead of receiving bombing orders from the White House then that might have turned out differently as well. But I'll take this from another thread so we can all see what's really going on in Iraq.


Accomplishments in Iraq

... the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has
graduated and is on active duty.

... over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their
fellow citizens.

... nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

... the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

... on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518
megawatts - exceeding the prewar average.

... all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes
and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and
secondary schools.

... by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over
1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former
salaries.

... all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are
open.

... doctors salaries are at least eight times what
they were under Saddam.

... pharmaceutical distribution has gone from
essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current
total of 12,000 tons.

... the Coalition has helped administer over 22
million vaccination doses to Iraq's children.

... a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000
kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked
canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms.
This project has created jobs for more than 100,000
Iraqi men and women.

... we have restored over three-quarters of prewar
telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable
water production.

... there are 4,900 full-service telephone
connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

... the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles
to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are
coming to life in all major cities and towns.

... 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have
service and first-time customers are opening accounts
daily.

... Iraqi banks are making loans to finance
businesses.

... the central bank is fully independent.

... Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented
investment and banking laws.

... Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first
time in 15 years.

... satellite TV dishes are legal.

... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying
mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of
Information for minders and other government spies.

... there is no Ministry of Information.

... there are more than 170 newspapers.

... you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like
every street corner.

... foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free
to come and go.

... a nation that had not one single element -
legislative, judicial or executive - of a
representative government, now does.

... in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88
advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer
of power in 35 years happened when the city council
elected its new chairman.

... today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business,
school and professional organizations are electing
their leaders all over the country.

... 25 ministers, selected by the most representative
governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day
business of government.

... the Iraqi government regularly participates in
international events. Since July the Iraqi government
has been represented in over two dozen international
meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly,
the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today,
the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign
Affairs announced that it is reopening over 30
Iraqi embassies around the world.

... Shia religious festivals that were all but banned,
aren't.

... for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala
thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the
12th Imam.

... the Coalition has completed over 13,000
reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a
strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

... Uday and Qusay are dead - and no longer feeding
innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young
daughters of local leaders to force cooperation,
torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or
murdering critics.

... children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their
parents disagree with the government.

... political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured,
executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their
families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

... millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in
perpetual terror.

... Saudis will hold municipal elections.

... Qatar is reforming education to give more choices
to parents.

... Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first
time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out
with courage for human rights, for democracy and for
peace.

... Saddam is gone.

... Iraq is free.

But since GWB is in the White House, I guess none of that matters?

You don't even have to give GWB the credit either. Let's just say that it's America along with thirty other countries, Amos, that gave the Iraqi people their freedom. I'd be fine and happy with that from all of you. But if you can't even do that then you really didn't have any interest in the Iraqi people in the first place. As I've said before, I'm just looking for some consistency in your argument. Or does your blind hatred for our president prohibit you from seeing the good in helping another human?


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:10 PM

Nice cut and paste, Hubby... You still owe me and others an apology and if you don't come forth with it then you will be the one whio will be the RACIST because it will be you, NO ONE ELSE HERE, who resorted to callin folks racists if they didn't buy into her heros PR firms crap.....

Yeah, you'd love to change the subject but, hey, you talk about personal responsibility and it's time fir you to step to the friggin' plate, pal...

Yeah, name callin' ain't as much fun when someone is out there to call yer hand, is it???...

If you ever call me a racist again I will hunt yer sorry ass down and plant my fist right between yer eyes!!!!! And you can take that to the bank, or hospital... I am very serious here so don't side step me.... YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY...

YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:23 PM

Bobert,

You're right. I'm sorry that YOU CAN'T COMPREHEND WHAT YOU ARE READING. Nowhere in this thread did I say "Bobert, you are a racist." If you need more schooling, then go back and sharpen those comprehension skills. It sure would save me a lot of time from having to explain everything to you. Besides, I'm sure other people have stuff they would like to add to the discussion besides reading your gas about how you've been "personally attacked."

Hell....I'm sure we'd all love to pitch in and help with the costs of the class if that's what's keeping you from doing it.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:40 PM

Well, nice sidestep..... What I got out of yer post is that folks who disaggree with you are either "jealous" (which I am not) ot racist (which I am not)....

Maybe you need to rewritwe what you had on yer mind at the time of 1:31 post... If you didn't mean what you said, fine. I can live with that but accsuinf folks who don't agree with you as being eithe "jealous" or "racist" is gonna get yer lights punched out....

And I mean this...

Maybe you need to think about how you go about strutin' yer version of "either with us or against us" 'cause the way you put it up there was down right fu*ked up...

So you either gonna have to explain to folks here that you mghta messed up a little with that racist stuff or yer gonna have to deal wioth me... And I'll hound you withotu mercy 'cause that was wrong on yer part...

Yeah, I'm a Christain, like Jesus, I gotta a temper... You gonna stick with callion' folks racists because they don't agree with you or yer hero then it gonna be like the money changers in the temple...

YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY...

Ain't ''bout readin', Hubby....

You messed up, now time to fess up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Alba
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

Hey Bobert, your Education if top notch.

You are not now, never have been and never will be a Racist.

Like I said on another thread...I now filter out the pro Bushites rants, if I NEED to know what they are saying...I know where to get that info.....cause someone else said it for them already so they just cut and paste.

As for Education...well, lol, that is definetly what conservatribes need. Guess they were some of the Children left behind.
Either that or they need to pull their heads our of their Butts and have a look at the REAL world.
Pathetic.
No sense in talking sense Bobert cause all youlle get back is nonsense from the Bush worshippers. They do really beilieve what they post here..They HAVE to....that's the saddest part of it all. They really do HAVE to believe the garbage they come in here with because for them to think otherwise would be so disturbing, embarrasing and shameful that it is best for them to just to blank out the Facts.

Yeah.. Iraq is Free...the insurgency is in it's last throes. ok ok ok..
fine...whatever they say. sheeesh

By the way Bobert you are owed more than an apology not just for the Racist remarks. You are also owed one for the insults directed at your intelligence, which as most of us know, is way above any Bushite that posts on the Mudcat.
That kind of low tactic is an example of one finger pointing at you Bobert and three fingers pointing right back at the person flinging the insults around.

I have always been more of a Non Fiction reader rather than a Fiction myself...that why I find Mudcat psuedo Conservatribe posts so uninformative and inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Alba
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:04 PM

adjustment required..(my dyslexia stricks again, sorry Bobert even after 3 proof reads I still managed to miss something...sorry:>)

"Hey Bobert, your Education IS top notch"
Love
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:15 PM

Thankee, Alba, fir the support.... Good to hear other folks willin' to stand up to ignorant bullie/brownshirsts...

Hubby knew that we were nietherr jelous or racist but he played the "race card" anyway... That makes hubby the racist because hubby was the one that brought up race if folks didn't goose-step to his guys marchin' orders...

But, guess what? Americans are slowly but surely sayin' "Hey, wait just a danged minute" to Bush and his Neocon Radicals....

Yeah, lots o' folks thinkin' "Hey, maybe this weren't such a great idea" now that they ain't seein' them piccures on the TV of Saddamas stuff gettin' blowed up but seein' where our kids are gettin' blowed up....

...and, for the record, Hubby owes a lot of folks an APOLOGY...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 11:22 PM

From your link, beardedbruce - "March 1 Iraq closes its northern crude oil export pipeline indefinitely due to sabotage concerns. The 600,000 bbl/d-pipeline, which runs from the city of Kirkuk to the Mediterranean port of Ceyhan has been the target of over 15 attacks since January 2005. The closure of the pipeline will make it difficult for Iraq to meet its targeted crude oil export level of 2 million barrels per day. (WMRC)"

Hmmm - Looks like Iraq has quite a large capacity to produce. Its just that this pesky war is getting in the way. If everyone would just simmer down and sell it to the U.S. at rock bottom prices everything would be fine, eh?

In other words - If the sabbotage ends, production goes up and Iraq will be dealing primarily with the U.S. to whom they will be indebted. You don't think the U.S. is over there fighting so that Iraq can sell their oil to the highest bidder do you?

Susu's hubby - You are looking more and more ignorant everytime you post. Bobert is not a racist and he probably has a higher level of education than you do. Did anyone ever teach you to think critically?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 12:35 AM

SH, I see you have repeated your cut and pasted disingenuous and downright deceitful information about conditions in Iraq. If you went so far as to read that, you must know that it is an unverified and simplistic compilation from various sources who apparently are quoting from each other.

If You Read That, Then Read This :

"January 4, 2004 | category: Ahmed Kharrufa • Voices from Iraq
If you are visiting from Snopes.com regarding what life in Iraq and the occupation is really like the following account from an Iraqi man provides a good overview of the U.S. occupation, although it was written in January of 2004 making it a year old. For more recent information about the U.S. and U.K. lead occupation and its actual results please read some of the following areas on our website."

Lots of links to pursue there- I know how interested you are in the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:03 AM

Asking someone if they are pedophile is not the same as calling someone a pedophile (Dianavan)

Maybe SH could used this clever sidestep and replace just 'pedophile' by 'racist'?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:38 AM

"It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas." —George Bush Jnr, Beaverton, Ore., Sep. 25, 2000
_________________________________________________________

Secret US plans for Iraq's oil; By Greg Palast; BBC Online

The Bush administration made plans for war and for Iraq's oil before the 9/11 attacks, sparking a policy battle between neo-cons and Big Oil, BBC's Newsnight has revealed. Iraqi-born Falah Aljibury says US Neo-Conservatives planned to force a coup d'etat in Iraq .. there were two conflicting plans, setting off a hidden policy war between neo-conservatives at the Pentagon, on one side, versus a combination of "Big Oil" executives and US State Department "pragmatists". "Big Oil" appears to have won. The latest plan, obtained by Newsnight from the US State Department was, we learned, drafted with the help of American oil industry consultants. Insiders told Newsnight that planning began "within weeks" of Bush's first taking office in 2001, long before the September 11th attack on the US. An Iraqi-born oil industry consultant, Falah Aljibury, says he took part in the secret meetings in California, Washington and the Middle East. He described a State Department plan for a forced coup d'etat.

Mr Aljibury himself told Newsnight that he interviewed potential successors to Saddam Hussein on behalf of the Bush administration.
The industry-favoured plan was pushed aside by a secret plan, drafted just before the invasion in 2003, which called for the sell-off of all of Iraq's oil fields. The new plan was crafted by neo-conservatives intent on using Iraq's oil to destroy the Opec cartel through massive increases in production above Opec quotas.

Former Shell Oil USA chief stalled plans to privatise Iraq's oil industry The sell-off was given the green light in a secret meeting in London headed by Fadhil Chalabi shortly after the US entered Baghdad, according to Robert Ebel. Mr Ebel, a former Energy and CIA oil analyst, now a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, told Newsnight he flew to the London meeting at the request of the State Department.

"We saw an increase in the bombing of oil facilities, pipelines, built on the premise that privatisation is coming." Philip Carroll, the former CEO of Shell Oil USA who took control of Iraq's oil production for the US Government a month after the invasion, stalled the sell-off scheme. Mr Carroll told us he made it clear to Paul Bremer, the US occupation chief who arrived in Iraq in May 2003, that: "There was to be no privatisation of Iraqi oil resources or facilities while I was involved."

New plans, obtained from the State Department by Newsnight and Harper's Magazine under the US Freedom of Information Act, called for creation of a state-owned oil company favoured by the US oil industry. It was completed in January 2004 under the guidance of Amy Jaffe of the James Baker Institute in Texas. Formerly US Secretary of State, Baker is now an attorney representing Exxon-Mobil and the Saudi Arabian government.

View segments of Iraq oil plans at www.GregPalast.com
BBC online, Thurs 17 March 2005

more here

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:48 AM

Oils ain't oils...

President Bush establishes a clear link between Iraq & Al Qaeda

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:53 AM

we shell not...

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 07:59 AM

hey Bobert - you are a good bloke.

BTW, Bush and his Coalition decide to invade..

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:02 AM

have people forgotten already why GB invaded?

Top 10 reasons that George W. Bush invaded Iraq.

10 - Because Saddam was personally responsible for 9/11; I mean because the US was under imminent threat of attack from Iraq; I mean, Saddam had weapons of mass distraction, I mean destruction programs, that he was selling to the Al-Qaeda and Taliban. Oh, wait a minute, now it's coming to me. Because we wanted to liberate the Iraqi people against a ruthless and mean dictator. Yeah, that's it. Like we said all along, Bush just wanted to liberate the Iraqi people.

9 - What is our oil doing under their sand?

8 - Did we mention 9/11 yet? Not that there is any evidence connecting Saddam to 9/11 but we'll just keep mentioning it (but we won't talk about the oil).

7 - Just because you are a chicken hawk, doesn't mean you can't give out a serving of whoop ass (as long as you get others to do it for you).

6 - Bush thought, "What is the stupidest thing I can do to get the whole world's opinion against the United States?"

5 - His advisors thought it was a good way to get his mind off the red button.

4 - Because he heard that Osama Bin Laden was in Pakistan.

3 - It had absolutely nothing to do with oil. Repeat, absolutely nothing to do with oil.

2 - North Korea has the nuclear bomb and everybody knew that Iraq didn't.

And the #1 reason Bush Jr. invaded Iraq - Cheney made him do it.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

Published on Thursday, January 30, 2003 by the Independent (Cape Town, South Africa) All Bush Wants is Iraqi Oil, Says Mandela

Former president Nelson Mandela said on Thursday the United States was preparing to go to war because "George Bush wants to get hold of the Iraqi oil".

Former South African President Nelson Mandela lashed out at President George Bush's stance on Iraq January 30, 2003, saying the Texan had no foresight and could not think properly. "All Bush wants is Iraqi oil, because Iraq produces 64 percent of oil and he wants to get hold of it. "Bush is acting outside the United Nations and both he and (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair are undermining the United Nations, an organisation which was an idea sponsored by their predecessors."

Mandela also questioned whether the US was ignoring the UN because its secretary-general is black.

"Because they (America) are so arrogant, they killed innocent people in Japan during Hiroshima and Nagasaki," he said referring to the two atom bombs the US dropped on Japanese cities to end the Second World War.

'One power with a president who can't think properly, ... wants to plant the world into holocaust' The elderly statesman said he was pleased that the people of the world, including Americans, were opposing the US government. "He (Bush) is making the greatest mistake of his life by trying to cause carnage.

Copyright 2003 Independent Online

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:12 AM

I didn't read all the posts; sorry if I am repeating. As I have asked on a number of threads, didn't Saddam tried to assassinate Garge's old man? It's personal.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:15 AM

Texas Oil Companies Bought Iraqi Oil
N. Y. Times. Published October 9, 2004.
By Judith Miller and Eric Lipton

(Begin excerpt.) Major American oil companies and a Texas oil investor were among those who received lucrative vouchers that enabled them to buy Iraqi oil under the United Nations oil-for-food program, according to a report prepared by the chief arms inspector for the Central Intelligence Agency.

The 918-page report says that four American oil companies - Chevron, Mobil, Texaco and Bay Oil - and three individuals including Oscar S. Wyatt Jr. of Houston were given vouchers and got 111 million barrels of oil between them from 1996 to 2003. The vouchers allowed them to profit by selling the oil or the right to trade it.

The other individuals, whose names appeared on a secret list maintained by the former Iraqi government, were Samir Vincent of Annandale, Va., and Shakir al-Khafaji of West Bloomfield, Mich., according to the report by the inspector, Charles A. Duelfer. (End excerpt.)

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:18 AM

Secret US Plans for Iraqi Oil

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:24 AM

Oil companies at the heart of Iraq crisis. Before 9-11, US targeted Iraq oil

by Neil Mackay

    President Bush's Cabinet agreed in April 2001 that ''Iraq remains a destabilising influence to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East'' and because this is an unacceptable risk to the US ''military intervention'' is necessary.
    Vice-president Dick Cheney, who chairs the White House Energy Policy Development Group, commissioned a report on ''energy security'' from the Baker Institute for Public Policy, a think-tank set up by James Baker, the former US secretary of state under George Bush Snr.
    The report, Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century, concludes: ''The United States remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a de-stabilising influence to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East. Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export programme to manipulate oil markets.    Therefore the US should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq including military, energy, economic and political/ diplomatic assessments.
''The United States should then develop an integrated strategy with key allies in Europe and Asia, and with key countries in the Middle East, to restate goals with respect to Iraqi policy and to restore a cohesive coalition of key allies.''
    Baker who delivered the recommendations to Cheney, the former chief executive of Texas oil firm Halliburton, was advised by Kenneth Lay, the disgraced former chief executive of Enron, the US energy giant which went bankrupt after carrying out massive accountancy fraud.
    The other advisers to Baker were: Luis Giusti, a Shell non-executive director; John Manzoni, regional president of BP and David O'Reilly, chief executive of ChevronTexaco. Another name linked to the document is Sheikh Saud Al Nasser Al Sabah, the former Kuwaiti oil minister and a fellow of the Baker Institute.
    President Bush also has strong connections to the US oil industry and once owned the oil company Spectrum 7.
    The Baker report highlights massive shortages in world oil supplies which now leave the US facing ''unprecedented energy price volatility'' and has led to recurring electricity black-outs in areas such as California.
    The report refers to the impact of fuel shortages on voters. It recommends a ''new and viable US energy policy central to America's domestic economy and to [the] nation's security and foreign policy''.
    Iraq, the report says, ''turns its taps on and off when it has felt such action was in its strategic interest to do so'', adding that there is a ''possibility that Saddam Hussein may remove Iraqi oil from the market for an extended period of time'' in order to damage prices.
    The report also says that Cheney should integrate energy and security to stop ''manipulations of markets by any state'', and suggests that Cheney's Energy Policy Group includes ''representation from the Department of Defence''.
    ''Unless the United States assumes a leadership role in the formation of new rules of the game,'' the report says, ''US firms, US consumers and the US government [will be left] in a weaker position.''

by Neil Mackay, award-winning journalist with The Sunday Herald, Glasgow, Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:25 AM

SH, you are being a total weasel. You DID call Bobert a racist (and me since my post was also above yours), and when he stood up to you you backpedaled. If you saw a picture of my family, you'd be thoroughly embarassed at having called me a racist (and you would see that I have no reason to be jealus of anyone over anything). Your mindless cut&paste retread crap posts have damaged your credibility, your accusations against me (and Bobert and others) shredded it. Don't bother apologizing... that also would have zero credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 09:57 AM

To all those who believe I called them a racist:


I gave you a choice between two options. Whatever option suits you the best is not my fault. It's what I read in your never-ending posts that tells me that it's got to be one of the two.

Now if that's not the truth then explain yourselves. Please tell us what the real truth is.



We're waiting.....







Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:02 AM

"Actually, he is a wonderful Christian who loves everyone the same, and actually is more tolerant than most people on this website. While he was extreme with the view of people on welfare he did not actually mean that he thought that all of them are on crack or tramps."

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:03 AM

You define your own terms, Susu's hubby, within your own logic. But it has nothing to do with people here. When your comments descended to personal attacks, you lost the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:10 AM

freda,


Please show me anywhere in this thread where I have personally attacked anyone.


I have only shared my opinion based on what I see as yours or anybody else's opinion.

If it's not true, then so be it.

I will not back down from my opinions just as I see you will not back down from yours.

I just ask for clarification on what you say. You can't have it both ways.

It's just more of the same....talking out of both sides of your mouth.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM

SH... none of us are waiting for you to explain yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:18 AM

Your question is a classic logical fallacy: the False Dilemma.

Here's another - answer me this Mr. Hubby - Do you

1) walk to school, or
2) carry your lunch?

Well, which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:21 AM

another one ..

When did you stop beating your wife?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:32 AM

Hey TIA, thanks for the link! That's a very useful website. I betcha that if everyone was forced to go there first to logic-check the post they are about to submit, mudcat would have about a zillion fewer posts!! *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:35 AM

All this talk about oil is just really silly.   Oil was discovered in Pennsylvania in 1859.   From 1859 to 1960 the USA was the largest producer of oil in the world.

We have currently used about 1 trillion barrels.   According to most experts we have 1 trillion barrels left.   We currently use 30 billion barrels of oil a year.   Do the math- that gives us 33 years. But its worse than that.   Due to India and China oil usage is increasing by 1 billion barrels a year.   Therefore we have less time.

70% of all the oil in the USA is gone.   All the major discoveries in the USA were in the 1930's.   The Gulf of Mexico and Alaska are relatively small (good finds but still small)   There are 4,500,000 oil wells in the world with about 3,500,000 in the USA.   There are no major discoveries to be made.   The only possibilities are Iran or Iraq where politics has not less us explore.   

Lets assume we are completely wrong and there are 2 trillion barrels left.   That only buys us another 11 years.   Meanwhile they are spending 10's of billions of dollars in the tar flats in Calgary to get oil.   Would the experts be spending that amount of money if there were other oil finds that were easy to get?

The point is that oil is running out in our lifetime.   Debating how to buy us another few years from Iraq oil is really silly.   Anyone making that argument clearly does not understand the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Food for thought, Larry. I once wrote a policy paper on the Social Discount Rate which, in part, postulated by way of analogy that western governments and oil companies should spend their money on oil exploration and research, develop reserves, but only bring enough of it to market to pay for these activities... until we use up every drop of "their" oil.

Simple aritmetics, really, but the catch is that we have to have lots of bullets when we say we are not going to compensate "them" for all the $'s they invested in our economy when their oil runs out.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 12:22 PM

Larry K is absolutely correct.

The scary part is that our government "of the oil people, for the oil people, and by the oil people" is desperately clinging to their doomed hydrocarbon underpinnings of our economy.

Would we really be in Iraq if it had no oil? We are conspicuously NOT in Sudan, Burma, North Korea...

Would we need to be in Iraq if we spent the $4 billion a month on switching to alternative energy sources?

Would we need to be in Saudi Arabia if we did this? Anyone remember why Al Quaeda was first formed? Yup, it was because Islamic fundamentalists were incensed that there were infidel soldiers on holy land so close to Mecca (who were there largely to protect our oil interests!).

It is ALL about oil. Or rather, it is all about energy, and oil happens to be the current drug of choice for us (or is it US?) energy junkies.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 12:28 PM

There is plenty of evidence that oil had something to do with the Iraq invasion.

For one thing, the French had a lock on a lot of Iraq oil contracts, greatly displeasing the oil shaws of America.

For another, Saddam was fooling around with his outflow as the political whim took him, which irritated the hell out of those responsible for continuing the Great American Burn.

Lacking the imagination to see a real path to energy independence, the Bush assholes thought spending ten billion dollars on an invasion was a peachy keen alternative.

Had they used the money to develop and field infrastructure for energy independence they could have kissed Saddam and his oil goodby without so much as a frisson. But they don't think in terms of efficiency, or optimum futures; they think in terms of violent overwhelm, because that's the kind of folks they are. Force, manipulation, falsification of facts, overwhelm, political subterfuge, PR capers divorced from truth, and string pulling are their daily bread. They are, IMHO, scumbags.

A

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 12:33 PM

Amos.... I'd just add to that, it's not just the oil in Iraq... there's lots of others with oil and, like my old man told me, "If there's more than one of 'em, take on the biggest one first."

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 12:38 PM

It's not really about oil, Larry K. It's about money. Some people see a lot of unharvested money under the ground in other people's countries, and they want it. That, combined with the fact that they have, in their pockets, all the right people to make that happen (at the expense of the taxpayers in countries like the US and the UK, and at the expense of the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in numerous countries), is the actual root of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 05 - 08:55 PM

LOL

I read the Houston Chronicle article, beardedbruce. It confirms what I already knew... no matter what happens, it's Bush cronies like Haliburton who are going to be the only winners in this "war". Everybody else... the US taxpayers and the people of Iraq, are taking it up the ass so Bush and his cronies can make a lot of money.

Killing people for money. That's just wrong, no matter how you spin it.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 03:08 AM

From Sgrena's newspaper in Italy,

"The Haliburton Reconstruction hearings not only prove that the Bush administration was going to attack Iraq without cause but also show that Cheney and Bush had already set up KBR, a company that Cheney still has a salary contract with until 2007 and stock options until 2009 (All a matter of public record) to attend closed door meetings over the objections of Mrs. Greenhouse who at the time was the Chief Contracting Officer of The Army Corps. of Engineers.

In those meetings specific budget and logistics information that would clearly give Haliburton KBR an inside track to billions of dollars worth of contracts was illegally attended by managers of KBR and representatives working under Cheney. The fact that Haliburton KBR did the front end study for the Pentagon should have excluded them from obtaining any contracts because of obvious conflicts of interests.

Mrs. Greenhouse states, "The contracts awarded to Haliburton KBR represents the most blatant and improper contract abuse I've ever seen in the course of my professional career." Rory Mayberry a former KBR food production manager testify that KBR has overcharged the tax payers of this country billions of dollars. They have charged for meals not prepared,served spoiled , outdated meals and thrown away food so that the could pad the bill.

Lloyd Owen International representatives testified that KBR charges the American people $1.30 per gallon of gas transported in Iraq from Kuwait. Llloyd Owen International which does the identical work in Iraq charges $.18 per gallon. They also testified that KBR has not delivered any fuel to rebuild Iraqs infrastucture or delivered any parts other than scrap to rebuild Iraqs oil refineries even though they were paid billions to do so.

The U.S. fighting forces families had to buy them Kevlar vests and they had to scrounge in junk yards to shore up their humvees now we find out they were served spoiled food and food that had bullets and shrapnel removed from blown up trucks. They knew they would attack Iraq and they knew they would profit.

Its not all about oil. Its about making money by bringing about the misery of war and bilking the national coffers while pretending to reconstruct. Its about buying and selling weapons and all the equipment necessary to run a war."

Its all about GREED.

...and today, "WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military has signed on Halliburton (HAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research) to do nearly $5 billion in new work in Iraq under a giant logistics contract that has so far earned the Texas-based firm $9.1 billion, the Army said on Wednesday.

You are absolutely right, Carol - Cheney, Bush and their war profiteers are making millions.

...and they have all those people believing it has something to do with Christianity and Democracy and the privilege to drive a SUV.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 07:51 AM

Well, first of all, a big thankee fir the link demonstartin' clearly the illogic of Hubby's feeble attempt's to cover his butt, which in MO, is no longer coverable...

But on a more seriouis side, Larry K makes some very valid points about oil and consumption which, again in MO, have been absolutely neglected by oilman Bush and oilman Cheney and that has to do with a real "Energy Policy" toher than "get mo oil!!!"....????

Yeah, heck if I know why we're in Iraq but none of the given reason add up so until I hear something plausable I'll just suspect that oil has a lot to do with it...

But back to the Bush/Cheney Energy Policy... What is it??? Can anyone tell me one feature of the policy??? Just one... No, don't go Googlin' then cut and paste... Can anyone tell me, off the top of their head, one feature of the Bush/Cheney so-called energy policy???

The only thing I can remember about it is that at the time it, what=ever-it-is, was developed it was done in secret and the accounts that were made public said that a number (I believe it was like 52) oilmen were involved and no one else??? Of course, we may never know because Bush and Cheney don't think its any of our danged business and are using Executive Priveledge (maybe Executive Order) to prevent the American people from knowing just how the country, at a time of dwindlin' oil reserves, has a policy that is geared toward maximum consumption rather than conservation... Well, Carpe Diem is fine but thwe hangovers ain't an' we're gonna pay fir this little binge... Like look in any car magazine and you'll see what I mean... There are more 500 horsepower cars on the market now than during the heighth of the muscle cars days... And they ain't 500 horsepower solar cars either.... No, they are gas guzzlers...

Anmd look at the oilmen Bush/Cheney regime is about to do to the railroads... Cut, cut, cut...???? Like what's this about... A real energy policy would be pumping resources into rail transporation, or monorails, 'er, 'er...

Historians will not be kind to these crooks and one day even Hubby will have to admit that the party wasn't worth it...

But fir today? Eat, drink and be merry...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:27 AM

Well,

Let's see.

Four bombs in London. Possibly hundreds killed.

Who takes responsibility? An offshoot of Al Qaida

Why did they do it? British cooperation in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What type of attack? Disruptive



Numerous bombs in Madrid. Many killed and injured.

Who took responsibility? Again, Al Qaida

Why did they do it? Spain's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan

What type of attack? Disruptive



Threats are now being made towards Denmark and Italy for their continued cooperation in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Neither one of these countries (Iraq or Afghanistan)are being ruled by anybody in Al Qaida.

But yet, all we hear is how we need to pull our troops out.

Al Qaida is a thug organization with no power other than the terror that they spread by cowardly attacks. We went to them in Afghanistan and they came to us in Iraq. But yet, we still need to bring our troops home?

You people are shameless.

Not only do you not care about the people that we are fighting for but it seems as if you care more about the people that we are fighting against.

It doesn't matter to me how much credibility that you think I have.
I could care less about what is thought about me.
But if what I am saying is making a difference to at least one of you, then my point has been made. Sadly, in a place such as this, some people are afraid to say what they really feel because of the lashing that they are sure to recieve for not falling into the "status quo".

It's really sad.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:44 AM

What, have you now uncovered evidence that the lass reactionary here in Mudville have Al Quida connections...

More Hubby illogic, folks...

He can't pin racism on us so now its Hubby's Plan B: Terrorist sympathizers...

But he'll come back and say he didn't exactly say that byut the message come thru loud and clear...

What next??? Accusin' us of the kidnappin' of the Linberg baby???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:47 AM

Hubby:

"You people are shameless".

Spoken like a true brainless SOB.

I don't know who you think "you people" are, but waving these bitter generalized accusations around is self-serving and short of thought.

I'd appreciate it if you could learn to make clear statements about issues and lay off the arm-waving self-important bullshit.

I think you will find if you stop and think about it that only one or two people on this site have voiced the opinion that we should pull out of Iraq. A far larger number have asserted that going there in the first place was a bad idea.

Possibly if you weren't so crazed for blood yourself, you would notice these small distinctions.

A

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: polaitaly
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM

Hubby, I don't understand...After September 11 , the US went to Afganistan but the bombings in Bali and in many other countries happened the same; then, the US went to Irak but the bombing in Madrid, and now in London went ahead the same; so, apart from killing many thousand Iraqui and almost two thousand American, can you please explain to me what the US have achieved in preventing acts of terrorism, with those two wars?

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:52 AM

Susu's Hubby - No one here supports Al Qaeda. You continue to make attacks on people here - when at the time, we are sending our concern and prayers to the catters in London, you are spraying bitterness and nasty accusations like a wild cat.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: freda underhill
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 09:56 AM

SH - come and have a cup of tea, at a time like this, we shouldnt be ripping into each other. I take back my angry words - you and Susu can come over any time and play some music - we can relax in my lovely back garden.

as mooh says,

peace.

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM

We (the US) created Al Qaida, Hubster, and as you yourself have noted, their activities are a direct response to US and British (and a the coalition of the coerced) meddling in the affairs of other people's countries. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Al Qaida won't go away (in fact, they will continue to grow bigger and stronger) until we stop stealing other people's stuff and destroying their countries (and killing massive numbers of their civilians).

Subject: RE: BS: In Its Last Throes (Political)
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jul 05 - 12:58 PM

When its your friends and neighbors that are dead and injured, it makes you realize how the Iraqis must feel.

Combine the numbers of those killed by terrorist attacks to the number of Iraqi civilians who have died because of Bush/Blair lies and aggression. If you want to blame someone, blame those that have invaded the Middle East.

There is nothing righteous about war.