Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:00 AM

MtheGM, what do you think about the fact that apparently some calypsonians fathered illegitimate children? According to my research, he seems to have been the typical man in his situation i.e. apparently some calypsonians lived off the money given to them by women. He wrote quite a few songs about his (numerous) love affairs. I have also read a book mentioning the role that some calypsonians "did not acknowledge their role in the pre-World War Ii exploitation of women'.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:12 AM

Morwen: My understanding of the culture concerned is that this was fairly common practice in W Indian communities: from which comes the term "my baby-father" which I have heard that many W Indian women use to refer to their absent or casual partners. But this is from hearsay only, and I would not set myself up as having enough direct knowledge to "think" anything specific "about it".

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:25 AM

This would, if true, of course make the idea that he would never mention any children he had more plausible. As I said above, illegitimacy was a stigma in all communities (I believe) until quite recently.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:42 AM

Yes, MtheGM, if it makes you happy to win points in meaningless discussion, then I agree with your every point. You are the epitome of all things holy and the sun shines out of your arse.

My care in the community done for the day. I'm out of here.

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:43 AM

Morwen: Do you live in the part of E Asia I mentioned above (in reply to a point you made about the reported survival of corporal punishment in some places) where punishments of up to 24 strokes with a heavy 4-ft cane are still given, often in addition to a prison sentence, to rapists or other violent criminals? If so, what do you think about that?

FAO Dave: I would add to this question, addressed to Dave, that I am not sure that I would advocate return of the cat; but if anyone recommended the re-use of the (probably a bit less severe) birch for hoodies who mug old ladies I should not lose any sleep over the prospect of some of the yobbos getting it. Where that leaves me in the 'arsehole' stakes is a matter for your consideration, not mine.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:49 AM

I live in Australia. I was born in Australia in the 1990s, as was my younger brother. My parents are both from Malaysia, born and raised there. I have relatives in Singapore. I believe the Singaporean punishment for drug traffickers is too harsh, especially since as you said, sometimes the blood runs down to the floor.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 01:52 AM

In South Korea (according to my research), they still have corporal punishment in schools, but I don't know about it as a criminal penalty. Better research that.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:27 AM

---Yes, MtheGM, if it makes you happy to win points in meaningless discussion, then I agree with your every point. You are the epitome of all things holy and the sun shines out of your arse.---

Ever-gracious in defeat, Dave the Gnome, isn't he just!!!!

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:47 AM

Morwen: purely as a factual point; I don't think my Oz relatives would care to hear Australia defined as E Asia!

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:49 AM

Ha! I am Chinese Australian!

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:52 AM

It is my ethnicity, not my nationality.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 May 11 - 02:53 AM

Quite so; but did you not say above somewhere that you lived in E Asia? ~~ or have I misremembered?, in which case apologies of course.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 04:37 AM

I think you misremembered my post! :). And now we know how Lord Invader got money when he wasn't singing! :). Interestingly, the only two songs he wrote about parenthood/parental themes are a version of "Brown Skin Girl" with these lines: "What's wrong with you, Miss Ivy?/Why you trying to trap me with that baby?/We only got together in November/And the baby was born in September" and one (I don't know the title, might it be "That Child Ain't Mine"?) which says, "Miss Daisy, you must be crazy/Why you brought me up for bastardy/This Daisy she had ambition/And she was friendly with a Yankee man/But they sent the fella back to America/So she want to pin it on the Invader/But me head is hard and knotty/I can't make no straight-hair baby/" then something I can't remember, and "When the baby born stick your grind/No darling, that child ain't mine".
What does that say about him?
:).

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:33 AM

I think that in the last section of the song I quoted, the lines are:
When the baby born, stick your grind
No, darling, that child ain't mine.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 08:28 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:02 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:40 PM

Mention of Orwell reminds me that in "Such, Such Were the Joys" he recalls being cured of bedwetting by being beaten in his boarding school (St Cyprian's in England). He also says: "There was a boy named Beacham, with no brains to speak of, but evidently in acute need of a scholarship. Sambo was flogging him towards the goal as one might do with a foundered horse. He went up for a scholarship at Uppingham, came back with a consciousness of having done badly, and a day or two later received a severe beating for idleness. 'I wish I'd had that caning before I went up for the exam,' he said sadly -- a remark which I felt to be contemptible, but which I perfectly well understood."

That would have been about 1916.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 06:45 PM

Joe_F, that's interesting.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 May 11 - 07:05 PM

And another extra note: in both songs, Invader tells the girl who is trying to "oops" him with half-white babies that it is physically impossible for him to have fathered her children. "Girl you can't fool me like that, tell me how a monkey can make a cat".

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:01 AM

Thanks Joe - i checked that one out - its available online. Its odd what Mike said about Orwell being such an oddball.

I can remember being repulsed by his candour when I was younger. Not just brutal facts, but downright embarrassing facts. Years and years too late - I can remember stumbling upon the truth about myself that I had no great taste for truth telling and brutal honesty. And for that reason, I had wasted much of my life trying to be a writer.

Its those candid revelations - like the

' a remark which I felt to be contemptible, but which I perfectly well understood.'

which make the hairs of your neck stand up - this is a guy who WAS there, and is telling the absolute truth as he saw it and felt it.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 May 11 - 03:32 AM

Anyone have comments on the "Miss Daisy/"That Child Ain't Mine" song? What I find particularly interesting is the reference to "brought me up for bastardy". I assume that meant that she tried to force him to pay child support.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 May 11 - 04:06 AM

Funny thing. Seems like he wrote other songs about parenthood:"As Long As It Born In My House, It Is Mine (Lt. Joe Song)" and in "It Is Time For The Women To Rule" he mentions "being left to mind the children at home'. What is interesting about the first one is that Invader perfectly accepts the fact that his lover's child may not be his and he says, "I don't care if I'm not its biological father, it's still my child because it was born in my house", a marked contrast to the views he expresses in "Brown Skin Girl" in which he refuses to take responsibility for Miss Ivy's child fathered by an American soldier. What caused this contrast in views, assuming that the first one is autobiographical?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 May 11 - 08:23 AM

Sorry. The second song is called "Women Trying To Rule".

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 17 May 11 - 05:37 PM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:37 AM

No one has opinions? It may either be autobiographical or not. It is, in my opinion, not implausible (understatement) that a popular calypsonian with a reputation built on his many romances and rough-edged character- a reputation referred to by the Duke of Iron in his cover of "Small Island"- Invader is referred to as "saying that he made his name fooling around with the women in Port-of Spain", a line with clear implications, would be "oopsed", as well as (possibly) the father of illegitimate children. Does anyone else share this opinion?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 May 11 - 07:13 AM

*being

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:22 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 May 11 - 04:55 PM

Reminded of another traditional song of a different type, a children's game, in which cor-pun of children occurs, by the refreshing of the thread on "I'm going down town to smoke my pipe" ~~ qv, & note the variants in the last line of the terrible punishments which will come to the one who lets the witch in..

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 May 11 - 07:36 PM

That reminds me of the fact that the original "Old Time Cat O'Nine", referred to those members of the steel bands who had a reputation for hooliganism. "You've done WHAT? Joined a steel band?" *Sound of a strap on the buttocks* :).

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 19 May 11 - 07:51 PM

"And if you don't step into line and don't stop cryin', I'm sendin' you to Carrera, where you'll get a real licking!" :). All right, no more Lord Invader jokes, unless you like them.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 May 11 - 01:25 AM

Does anyone want to add more opinions?

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 May 11 - 01:47 AM

Also, "Mama Look A Boo Boo", which I believe I have mentioned further up the thread, is about a father who is constantly teased by his kids because of his ugliness. "Come here a moment, bring the belt, you too damn cudgelent".

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 05:38 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,alan Whittle
Date: 21 May 11 - 08:40 PM

I'm beginning to worry about you Morwen. If you want to do an act with all these flagellation songs - are you intending to dress as a dominatrix?

there may well be a market for it - that's a worrying thought.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:12 PM

This is the only song explicitly about whipping that I'll ever sing in public.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 May 11 - 03:31 AM

Al ~~ Is there perhaps a somewhat censorious tone in your last post? Why 'worrying'? That doesn't happen to be one of my predilections, & clearly none of yours either; but why should it 'worry' you if it is some people's? Don't forget the wise words of Disraeli: "For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like". Or those of Mrs Patrick Campbell, "What does it matter what these affectionate people do, so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses?"

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:57 AM

No one needs to worry. I'm not planning to do anything like that. Funny that no one has commented on my jokes about getting the strap for joining a steel band. ;).

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 22 May 11 - 04:59 AM

And btw, "Mama Look A Boo Boo" might be introduced with something like, "This song is for all the parents and teachers. It's very relatable".

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 23 May 11 - 12:04 AM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 24 May 11 - 02:25 AM

Is anyone still interested in this thread? There are other calypsos talking about the cat o'nine tails, among them a song called "Corporal Punishment." Strange that no-one has commented on the fact that this song originally dealt with steel bands.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:45 PM

Here's how I hear verse 4 of OLD TIME CAT O' NINE:

And every night they walkin' about in a van,
Singing the song called "Robust Man."
Have you heard it? "I'm a robust man.
Don't ....(?)"
The judge and jury can settle this thing easily,
So the cat is the only time bomb to drop
And this robustness will stop.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 May 11 - 11:50 PM

Another song in which parent-child cp occurs, it has just come back to me: ~~ some versions of "17 Come Sunday", a thread on which has just been refreshed, & in which I posted the following a while back:

---"'Age of consent', oft referred to in this thread, is an arbitrary man-made and variable construct anyhow, not a Law of Nature. There was no such in British law till mid-C19. The girl in the song, taking it to date from earlier than that, and the young narrator, would have been breaking no laws except parental prohibitions — which could, tho, be effective: I recall one version where the mother

"seized her by the hair of her head
And out of the room she brought her
And with the butt of a hazel twig
She was the well-paid daughter"."---

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 04 Jun 11 - 08:55 AM

Have just found the "religious" song "The Bitter Withy" in another thread which would sound great in a hypothetical medley with "Old-Time Cat O'Nine".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:06 AM

I love this song and sometimes perform it (ironically) with my calypso revival band the Bamboo Band. In the light of recent events it may be time to dust it off.

Morwen I believe the version of Brown Skin Gal you mention is by Mighty Terror, not Invader.

Also, when I listen to the late 50's version (Teddy Boy Calypso) of the Invader song I hear the line as "The cat is the only H-Bomb to drop" rather than "time-bomb", does anyone else agree?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:26 AM

James Fryer- so there IS a performer on this site who performs old-time/vintage calypso and this song! :)Mighty Terror *covered* the Lord Invader version of "Bröwn Skin Gal" . Incidentally, I want to be a tent calypsonian myself :).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:39 PM

Can you point me at a Lord Invader version of Brown Skin Gal?

I am hoping to go to the London Calypso Tent this year but wouldn't dare perform!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:37 PM

The cover of Lord Invader's BSG may be close (thread 49824), but not sure.
Brown skin girl

Lord Invader sings it on Folkways FP-914, "Calypso," but I don't have that disc.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:29 PM

I found a copy, I had no idea that Invader had sung it, thanks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:26 PM

James, I think most calypsonians need *training* before they can perform in public. Some may have natural ability, but even *they* need training to develop the skills. That's why I plan to study ethnomusicology in university after I've left school after my HSC (I'm Australian) and get the training in extempo singing, picong etc. from an actual Trinidadian calypsonian.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:37 AM

Wow! That is impressive and I hope you allow us to follow your progress somehow. I am not sure it's a university thing though -- surely you need to go to T&T, or anywhere else with a thriving calypso scene (Toronto springs to mind) and learn directly from the calypsonians?

Although I enjoy modern calypso, really my aim is to revive the "old time" calypso rather than to be part of the modern calypso scene. There are so many great songs which are being forgotten.

It seems to me that the character of modern calypso is different. It's very political. Look at De Fosto's "Palace State of Mind" or Cro-Cro's "Compare and Contrast". Both great songs, but they are very specific to their context. "Cat O Nine" and "Brown Skin Gal" both achieve timelessness in a way those modern songs won't.