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Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)

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MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 02:28 AM
Joe Offer 11 May 11 - 02:33 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 02:38 AM
Joe Offer 11 May 11 - 02:43 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 02:51 AM
Joe Offer 11 May 11 - 03:12 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 03:16 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 03:22 AM
Joe Offer 11 May 11 - 03:30 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 04:54 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 05:08 AM
MGM·Lion 11 May 11 - 05:18 AM
MGM·Lion 11 May 11 - 05:20 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 05:27 AM
MGM·Lion 11 May 11 - 05:41 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 05:47 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 06:58 AM
MGM·Lion 11 May 11 - 07:06 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 07:21 AM
theleveller 11 May 11 - 07:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 11 - 08:01 AM
Charley Noble 11 May 11 - 08:02 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 08:06 AM
theleveller 11 May 11 - 08:16 AM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 08:24 AM
theleveller 11 May 11 - 08:37 AM
MGM·Lion 11 May 11 - 08:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 11 - 08:52 AM
theleveller 11 May 11 - 09:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 11 - 09:50 AM
Joe_F 11 May 11 - 04:06 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 04:32 PM
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Dave the Gnome 11 May 11 - 05:32 PM
MorwenEdhelwen1 11 May 11 - 05:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 11 - 05:41 PM
MGM·Lion 11 May 11 - 05:42 PM
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theleveller 12 May 11 - 03:52 AM
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Subject: Lyrics: And every night...
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:28 AM

In the song "Old Time Cat O'Nine" by Lord Invader, there's a word I can't quite make in one line: "I say the cat is the only time bomb to drop on this robust ?"


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:33 AM

Hi, Morwen -
Where's the "and every night" fit in?

Can you post what you have so far?

YouTube Video here (click) - phrase in question is at 2:43 - I'd say "so the cat is the only kind bomb to drop....(unintelligible)."

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:38 AM

Never mind. It's "And this robustness will stop." This is probably one of the catchiest songs about corporal punishment for juvenile delinquents. "The old-time cat o'nine, lash them bad and they come to change their mind. Send them Carrera (a prison island) where it licks like fire and they bound to surrender". Are there any other songs about corporal punishment and children or teenagers?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:43 AM

Hi, Morwen - how 'bout the entire lyrics, as much as you have?

One song about corporal punishment of children is Liverpool Lullaby, by Stan Kelly, which says, "you'll get a belt from your da."


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:51 AM

Thank you, Joe_F, however I already found out what it is. "And every night" comes from this line: "And every night they walkin(?) about in a van singing a song called "Robust Man". I think "walkin" or the van has to be wrong. This song is about "whip the bad kids. In fact send them to prison. give   so they will be scared into good behaviour". It clearly shows the decade when its composer grew up in. Until very recently corporal punishment was common in schools. Invader is asking for the cat o' nine tails to come back into common use due to the rise of delinquency/hooliganism shortly after WWII.


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Subject: ADD: Cat o'Nine Tails (Lord Invader)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 11 - 03:12 AM

Well, Morwen, Mudcat is a cooperative effort where the idea here is to share folk music lyrics for the common good. I share your interest in the song, so I wanted to see your transcription.

But I found the lyrics on the booklet for a Smithsonian Folkways CD titled Lord Invader: Calypso in New York.

CAT O'NINE TAILS
(Lord Invader)


The only thing to stop those Teddy Boys,
From causing panic in Great Britain,
The only thing to stop those hooligans,
From causing panic in England,
Well I hope that the Government,
See they need another kind of punishment,
I say one thing to cool down this crime,
Is to bring back the old time cat-o-nine.

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine beat them bad,
And they bound to change their mind,
Is to send them to Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.

In the days of Judge Hitchins, as you know,
Nothing never happen so,
Any man pass under his hand,
Can tell you of the rod of correction,
He used to treat them meek and mild,
He never spare the rod to spoil the child,
I say one thing to cool down this crime,
Is to bring back the old time cat-o-nine.

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine, bring it back,
And they bound to change their mind,
is to send them Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.

The police is working harder and harder,
To see this thing go no further,
Every night they on duty,
To safeguard us from violence and robbery,
But they would not stop at all,
Peter is going to pay for Paul,
I say the cat is the only time bomb to drop,
And this "Robustness" must stop

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine, lash them hard,
And they bound change their mind,
send them Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.

You see that 'though these Teddy Boys haven't got no reason,
Attacking innocent people,
Every night they walking about in a band,
With a razor in their hand,
But the judge and the juries, can settle this thing easily,
I say one thing to cool down this crime,
Just beat them with the old time cat-o-nine.

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine, beat them bad,
And they bound change their mind,
is to send them to Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.


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Subject: Lyr Add: OLD TIME CAT O' NINE (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 03:16 AM

*Question marks are where there are unintelligible words.


OLD TIME CAT O' NINE
(Lord Invader, 1946)

1. The only thing to stop these hooligans from causing panic in the island,
The only thing to stop these hooligans from causing panic in the island,
Well I go by the government,
See they need another kind of punishment,
I say one thing to cool on this crime
Is to bring back the old time cat o' nine

CHORUS: So the old-time cat o' nine,
Bring it back!
And they come to change their mind,
Send them Carrera where it licks like fire
And they bound to surrender.

2. And in the days of Judge Gilchrist as you know,
Nothing ever happened so,
Any man pass under his hand
Can tell you of the rod of correction
He never treat them meek and mild,
He never spare the rod to spoil the child,
I say one thing to cool on this crime
Is to beat them with the old-time cat o' nine. (CHORUS)

3. The police is working harder and harder to see this thing go no further
Every night they on duty to safeguard us from violence and robbery
But they would not stop at all,
Peter is going to pay for Paul,
I say one thing to cool on this crime
Is to beat them with the old-time cat o' nine. (CHORUS)

4. And every night they walkin' (?) about in a van,
Singing a song called "Robust Man".
(And ? wrote it?) "Robust Man, ????
He got in (jewellery?)
(And say the next thing he believe?)
So the cat is the only time bomb to drop
And this robustness will stop. (CHORUS)


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 03:22 AM

Joe, "Cat O' Nine Tails" is an update of the earlier "Old Time Cat O'Nine". Youtube has both versions.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 11 - 03:30 AM

Apparently, the song was also known as Teddy Boy Calypso


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:54 AM

Joe, you're right. It is Judge Hitchins. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:08 AM

Also, "walkin' about in a band". Forgot that.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:18 AM

An ENIGMA! regarding this song ~~~~

The album cover shown by clicking on Joe's link above in 2nd post on here gives dates of content 1925-48; and another post above puts 1946 in brackets after title of this calypso.

BUT my recollection, confirmed by Wikipedia, is that the "Teddy-Boys" were definitely a 1950s phenomenon originating in London: "Originally known as Cosh Boys, the name Teddy Boy was coined when a 1953 Daily Express newspaper headline shortened Edward to Teddy" - Wiki. The name derived from a fashion, started by young Guards officers & Cambridge undergraduates in about 1950, for suits based on the long jacket & flared trousers of the Edwardian era 40+ years before, which these upper & upper-middle class young men dropped speedily when a style distantly derived from the fashion were adopted by violent street gangs of the era.

So I am much mystified as to how this designation came to be used in a late-1940s calypso by a Trinidad-born NewYork-based singer {who was also, btw, as matter of interest, one of writers of the celebrated Rum & Coca Cola}.

Can anyone resolve this apparent anomaly, please, which is entirely inimical to my well-know taxonomic inclinations!

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:20 AM

Sorry ~ not, of course, "flared", but NARROW trousers.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:27 AM

He travelled to England in the 1950s and probably witnessed the famous "Notting Hill riots." He is talking about the white British members of street gangs who were notorious for racially motivated attacks on Afro-Caribbean immigrants. The song was originally composed in 1946 under the title "Old-Time Cat O' Nine" and was recorded again with updated lyrics in 1955 under the titles "Teddy Boy Calypso" or "Cat O' Nine Tails". That's why it refers to Teddy Boys.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:41 AM

Many thanks, Morwen, for this prompt and informative reply. I am greatly impressed by your scholarly approach to all your posts -- tho I am sure you will not mind my pointing out, as you are clearly someone like me who likes accurate info, that the Notting Hill riots occurred in 1958, so cannot have directly affected the 1955 rewrite ~~ tho the atmosphere that led up to them was of course already prevalent and relevant.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:47 AM

Thanks, Michael!


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:58 AM

One thing I always wondered was why this song has never been covered. Why hasn't anyone else covered it? Does anyone else think this would make a good cover?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 11 - 07:06 AM

I think it is the subject matter which has precluded/inhibited this, Morwen. Asked above about recent songs re corporal punishment of children, Joe could only come up with one fairly mild line from a Stan Kelly song. And apart from contexts like old army/navy songs {The Deserter; On Board A Man O'War}, and a few shrew-tamed ballads like Wife Wrapt In Wetherskins/Wee Cooper Of Fife, it isn't too common a traditional subject either. Intro'd into a new song, pace Lord Invader, it might be thought to appear a bit kinky; which might well be what has put singers off giving it mainstream cover.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 07:21 AM

What does "pace Lord Invader" mean? And I get it about it being thought of as kinky, which is funny since "Mama Look a Boo Boo", which isn't about corporal punishment, but is about disrespect to your parents, has the lines "bring the belt, you too damn cudgelent" and "I drag the belt from off me waist, you should hear them screamin' round the place". There are several cover versions of "Mama Look a Boo Boo" on Youtube.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller
Date: 11 May 11 - 07:43 AM

"One thing I always wondered was why this song has never been covered. Why hasn't anyone else covered it?"

Probably because it's an absolutely horrendous song that should be consigned to oblivion. Why would anyone want to sing a song that celebrates flogging people?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:01 AM

Why would anyone want to sing a song that celebrates flogging people?

Well, you you can't beat a good old bit of S&M. Oh, hang on...

On a more serious note - Why not? Folk music covers life, death, hanging, drowning, incest, buggery, necrophilia and a whole host of others I may not even want to imagine!

I, for one, found the thread interesting in as much as I had never heard of Lord Invader before - Now I am off to find more.

Thanks Morwen.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:02 AM

"Probably because it's an absolutely horrendous song that should be consigned to oblivion. "

Or it may have been a "modest proposal" for addressing a "horrendous" situation.

Many topical songs have a short half-life.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:06 AM

Theleveller, the song was written in a specific time period (1946, re-recorded in 1955). Lord Invader, the composer, grew up in the 1920s and attended a Catholic school in Trinidad. Until very recently, corporal punishment of children (including whipping/caning) was commonplace in schools and homes around the world, according to my parents and teachers, who remember corporal punishment from when they were in school. I believe the birch and cat o'nine tails were used to punish young offenders in Britain, America and British colonies.

Invader is singing this song as someone who can remember corporal punishment, or "licks" on the bottom as a punishment (common before the 1950s). He seems from this song to have been one of those adults who say things like "Being whipped never did me any harm." I'd sing it explaining the content, but I wouldn't sing it at a juvenile justice centre, for example. You can choose not to sing it, but if someone wants to sing it, they should introduce it adequately.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:16 AM

"Why not? Folk music covers life, death, hanging, drowning, incest, buggery, necrophilia and a whole host of others I may not even want to imagine!"

True, but very few actually RELISH it.

I understand what you are saying Morwen. I was brought up at a time when this was common practice in schools but not, thankfully, in my home. It is not a practice I care to dwell on. I just find the song nauseating. Oh, and it's appallingly written!


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:24 AM

Do you mean the Trinidadian dialect, theleveller? There are dozens of songwriters whose writing is worse than Invader's. Some of the pop singers that some of my friends listen to. And it's not easy to write song lyrics. I've tried. In my opinion, Lord Invader was a well-respected calypsonian because he was good with words. You're entitled to your opinion of his work, but to me, it's good.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:37 AM

Fair enough, I take your point about dialect - probably loses a lot when written down. If you think that's hard, you should try writing in the East Yorkshire dialect!

As far as the subject matter is concerned, are you saying that it would be OK to perform songs that actively encouraged rape, paedophilia, mutilation or child torture? If not, please explain the difference.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:40 AM

Morwen: 'pace' [pronounced either pacey or pah-chay] as I used it above, which you asked about, means 'with due respect to the views of...'.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:52 AM

I haven't seen anyone suggesting that activley encouraging rape, paedolhilia etc. is OK. Songs, folk songs in particular, are social comment, surely? If we took them seriously I would quite happily hit Britney Spears just one more time. But most people, not all and I am sure there will be exceptions, fully understand that songs about distasteful subjects do not encourage them. don't they?

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller
Date: 11 May 11 - 09:06 AM

"I haven't seen anyone suggesting that activley encouraging rape, paedolhilia etc. is OK."

Exactly my point! So why is this OK?

So the old-time cat o'nine,
Bring it back!
And they come to change their mind,
Send them Carrera where it licks like fire
And they bound to surrender.

Like I said, explain the difference. I wonder how a Jamaican would feel about a song celebrating the floggings inflicted by the slave-owners.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 11 - 09:50 AM

"Why is this OK?"

Maybe because it is a song of it's day rather than a political point of view? I find it highly unlikely that the song was anything other than ironic but even if it was serious, is anyone going to take notice of a long dead West Indian calypso singer? If we begin to censor songs because they offend presnt day sensibilities we may as well give up folk music altogther. :-(

But, what the heck, too much thread drift already. It is just a folk song after all and Morwen has already got what he (is that right?) came for so I am not going to labour the point.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:06 PM

Morwen: I am honored to have been confused with the estimable Joe Offer, but modesty requires me to point out that we are not the same person. %^)


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:32 PM

Dave the gnome, I'm a girl.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:12 PM

The difference is that this song is railing against the crimes committed by juvenile delinquents, who have actually done something to deserve the flogging that's being recommended by Invader. In the second version they have committed racially motivated violence against West Indian immigrants. The difference between them and the slaves is that slaves were (and are) sometimes being racially oppressed and don't have a choice in committing violence against their owners as it's often their easily way to express themselves overtly. The Teddy Boys did have a choice about whether or not they commit these attacks. One is significantly being oppressed while the other group isn't. If I (a Chinese-Australian girl) witness a riot against Chinese immigrants from Southeast Asia in Australia and write a calypso about how the white rioters should be punished in the harshest way possible, I consider myself to be expressing my opinion of racial tensions, especially if they involve beatings and other forms of assault.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:16 PM

Dave the gnome, I wonder what makes you think the song is being ironic? Is it because of the severity of punishment that is being proposed?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:32 PM

Thanks for the correction Morwen. Gender does not make much difference to us Gnomes, apart from the length of the beard, but I know it is important to humans:-)

It is a little to do with the severity that makes me think in terms of irony - But it is also that the tradition of the Calypso - In my opinion - has a lot of poking fun at the establishment. You will also notice that he proposes violent punishment for violent crime, which is a prime example of irony in itself. I believe the irony is likely to be intentional as Lord Invader, being West Indian, would have a full understanding of the implications of being brutalised by the authorities.

Just my opinion of course. But anyone who disagrees is obviously wrong...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:37 PM

It could be because of his education. He attended a Catholic school, notorious for their discipline. And as I've said above, corporal punishment was once very common in Western societies and cultures. My own (Chinese-Malaysian) culture uses corporal punishment as a last resort. But it could be ironic.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:41 PM

I am as sure as I can be that irony was his intention - The fact that he received corporal punishment himself would stengthen the idea.

Have you ever heard Eric Bogles 'I hate Wogs'? Taken out of context it is extemely offensive but once you understand Bogle's intentions it all becomes clear.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:42 PM

Another song which has just occurred to me in which whipping occurs, neither naval/military or shrew-taming, is "Going Down Town" {"Lynchburg Town" in DT} ~~ square-dance/bluegrass style tune with many floaters, but I don't think its two verses about "Going Down Town to get a bottle of wine, Hitched me to the whipping post and gave me 49" &c, occur in other songs. The reasons for the punishments are not specified ~~ they seem purely adventitious.

I learned it originally from singing of Tom Paley.

Leveller &c ~ any objections to that one?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:57 PM

Maybe so, but I'd still introduce it properly if I was going to sing it.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 May 11 - 01:57 AM

Something else that might be interesting: the Wikipedia article on the cat o'nine tails
says that it is still used as punishment for prisoners in Trinidad and Tobago.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller
Date: 12 May 11 - 03:52 AM

"Leveller &c ~ any objections to that one?"

Don't know that one. Is that a problem with you?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan w
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:18 AM

'The Teddy Boys did have a choice about whether or not they commit these attacks. One is significantly being oppressed while the other group isn't.'

Well i'd give you an argument about that. The kids that became teddy boys often came from culturally impoverished backgrounds. Post war England was no bed of roses. Ask Derek Bentley how fit the judges were to be handing out such sentences.

Theres nothing ironic about this piece. Corporal punishments was only just off the general statute book (1948 I think). And it was still employed in prisons and on the Isle of man right into the 1960's. My own cousin had regualar nightmares about the beatings handed out to him by the Irish Christian brothers who taught him right into his thirties - apparently all the kids from that school did.

Anyone who advocates corporal punishment is an asshole - regardless of colour, race, or creed - black, brown, pink, aubergine ....arseholes the lot of them.

the song belongs in the joyless dustbin of history - like so many of the gems that young impressionable kids are being encouraged to dig out from the shelves of Cecil sharp house. there is a museum for such stuff - that's the place for it.

All this rooting round in the past is so uncreative. Don't young people have something to say about the here and now that should be finding its way into folksong? do you really think the guys that wrote the songs that are surviving in the public arena - Whisky in the Jar etc were people fretting about the way Sam larner and Maud Karpeles did it.

Will the fact that Trinidad still uses the cat, stop any modern folksingers from going there - in the way that another generation boycotted Franco's Spain and Verwoerd's South Africa? I doubt it - folksong is respectabised somehow nowadays - debollocked.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:29 AM

Yes, but still there are people from impoverished backgrounds who don't do anything like that. Impoverished background doesn't mean that a person will automatically become a criminal. And this song is still a part of history even if you don't sing it.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:48 AM

And I would sing it- as part of a historical presentation on youth culture or the generation gap, or how adults' views of young people are reflected in folk music, or as part of a Legal Studies task on law reform and young offenders, with a careful explanation of the context. I certainly wouldn't perform it at school or in a singing concert setting, and I wouldn't sing it in front of any older people (or anyone really), with painful and vivid memories of corporal punishment.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 May 11 - 07:36 AM

And as a matter of fact, Alan- are you suggesting that the fact that the teddy boys were culturally impoverished is an excuse for their attacks on Afro-Caribbean immigrants? I may be misunderstanding your post, but you seem to be overlooking the fact that they were violently attacking people of a different racial group. Are you suggesting that Lord Invader shouldn't have been angry about this? "Attacking innocent people.. with a razor in their hand." You posted: "The kids that became teddy boys often came from culturally impoverished backgrounds. Post war England was no bed of roses." Yes, that was true. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post.

BUT- if I were in Lord Invader's place, if I was a calypsonian from Trinidad who had immigrated to England looking for performance opportunities and had heard about these young, white kids attacking Black West Indians, I would be very angry and afraid that I would be next.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 May 11 - 09:21 AM

Morwen, you sing WHAT you want, WHERE you want. That's the essence of artistic freedom, that we all treasure and rely on and is at the heart of the folk revival. Pay no heed to an opinionated old fart like myself.

In defence of the 'teds', I can only say they were creatures of their time. Its hard for anybody to comprehend how insular and small minded the Britain of the 1940's and 1950's was. you heard your parents friends say - the only good German is a dead one. Only the bright kids at Grammar school got French lessons. Why do we need to learn French, we asked , we're not going there unless there's another war. And we lived on the east coast - france was just a few miles away.

The government invited people to come from Commonwealth countries, when there weren't even houses for the people here. And much of the housing was sub-standard. My relations grew up in terraced houses that had been condemned before the Ist world war as unfit for human habitation.

outsiders had a bloody tough time of it. but so did the native population.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:36 PM

Refresh. Yes, there were creatures of their time. So was Lord Invader- he was of his time and was obviously one of those adults who believed that "A whipping never harmed me."


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 May 11 - 06:18 PM

I remember from some years ago another northern English song in which a boy gets the buckle end of a belt from his dad for running off & listening to a Salvation Army band! Once again, it is merely incidental -- certainly not propaganda in favor of corporal punishment.

I have come on such advice (tho not in song) in what seems to me an odd place: a review (of a book on police brutality) by the US journalist & critic H. L Mencken, in 1931: "Let [our lawmakers] restore the bastinado, as has been done in England.... The English, when they take a tough boy in an assault with firearms, give him what, in America, would be regarded as a very short term of imprisonment, but they keep him jumping while he is behind the bars by cowhiding him at regular intervals.... In consequence there are very few gunmen in England.... [T]here is really no reason why whipping should be inhumane. In England its aim is not to butcher the culprit but simply to hurt him -- above all, to invade and make a mock of his dignity. It is hard for him, when he gets out, to posture as a hero, for all of his associates know that he has been flogged like a schoolboy, and they can imagine his piteous and unmanly yells."


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 May 11 - 10:08 PM

Joe_F, I would like to see that English song. Could you post its lyrics here?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 May 11 - 11:28 PM

"Leveller &c ~ any objections to that one?"

Don't know that one. Is that a problem with you? ====

No prob, leveller; just wondered if your objections to any non-negative refs to CorPun would extend to its matter-of-fact use in the Going Down Town/Lynchburg Town song. But if you don't know it, no sweat.

It is, if interested, in DT as Lynchburg Town. Also on my YouTube thread
http://www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer

~Michael~


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