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Weird chords

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Neil Lowe 17 May 99 - 08:07 AM
Tony Burns 17 May 99 - 08:25 AM
Neil Lowe 17 May 99 - 08:49 AM
reggie miles 17 May 99 - 11:05 AM
Rick Fielding 17 May 99 - 12:00 PM
Neil Lowe 17 May 99 - 12:49 PM
Tony Burns 17 May 99 - 01:04 PM
Don Meixner 17 May 99 - 11:07 PM
reggie miles 18 May 99 - 12:54 AM
Night Owl 18 May 99 - 01:28 AM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 01:46 AM
Ian Stephenson 18 May 99 - 05:33 AM
Ian Stephenson 18 May 99 - 05:47 AM
Neil Lowe 18 May 99 - 07:08 AM
Roger the zimmer 18 May 99 - 08:31 AM
Rick Fielding 18 May 99 - 05:59 PM
Richard Bridge 20 May 99 - 08:54 AM
Neil Lowe 21 May 99 - 07:40 AM
Roger the zimmer 21 May 99 - 08:17 AM
Neil Lowe 21 May 99 - 08:20 AM
MichaelM 21 May 99 - 10:50 AM
Roger the zimmer 21 May 99 - 11:02 AM
Neil Lowe 21 May 99 - 12:15 PM
catspaw49 21 May 99 - 03:05 PM
Ian Stephenson 22 May 99 - 02:56 PM
Roger in Baltimore 22 May 99 - 03:09 PM
Richard Bridge 22 May 99 - 07:25 PM
Mark Cohen 22 May 99 - 10:54 PM
Mark Clark 23 May 99 - 06:30 PM
Mark Clark 23 May 99 - 07:02 PM
Len N (inactive) 23 May 99 - 09:42 PM
Neil Lowe 24 May 99 - 09:00 AM
Richard Bridge 25 May 99 - 04:54 PM
Mark Clark 25 May 99 - 07:45 PM
Richard Bridge 26 May 99 - 03:12 PM
Mark Clark 26 May 99 - 10:42 PM
Richard Bridge 27 May 99 - 03:36 PM
Mark Clark 28 May 99 - 12:12 AM
Richard Bridge 28 May 99 - 02:59 AM
Neil Lowe 28 May 99 - 07:07 AM
Mark Clark 28 May 99 - 05:04 PM
Mark Clark 28 May 99 - 08:19 PM
Neil Lowe 01 Jun 99 - 07:12 AM
Jack (who is called Jack) 01 Jun 99 - 02:25 PM
Neil Lowe 02 Jun 99 - 06:45 AM
Jack (Who is called Jack) 02 Jun 99 - 03:46 PM
Neil Lowe 03 Jun 99 - 07:08 AM
Mark Clark 07 Sep 01 - 07:54 PM
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Subject: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 17 May 99 - 08:07 AM

For all you music theorists out there: I am not a professional musician but I occasionally plunk around a little on the guitar. As I don't know what I am doing, I stumble onto chord fingerings I have never been able to find in chord books. What might be the name of this chord: from 1st string to 5th string the notes are, F#, D, G (that is, open third string played), another F#, C.

Another one I recently came across in a blues-based song, a barre chord played at the 7th fret but naturally could be played as a barre chord anywhere on the neck: bar across all six strings with the only noted string being the 2nd string at the eighth fret (G).

Any help/comments/observations/words of wisdom/enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Tony Burns
Date: 17 May 99 - 08:25 AM

Neil, there is a program that will do this for you. It is available at http://www.angelfire.com/nc/nutchords/.

btw - the program says you are playing a Csus2add#11 and the inversion is a D-5add11/C


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 17 May 99 - 08:49 AM

hmmmm......I think there is a direct relation here. As the fingering of the chord becomes more convoluted, so does the name. Small wonder. Thanks Tony. I'll bookmark the site for future reference. You've done your good deed for the day. I've been playing that jumble of notes for years and never knew what to call it. It's back to seeing what other spaghetti twists I can put my fingers in. Regards, Neil.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: reggie miles
Date: 17 May 99 - 11:05 AM

Tony, cool site, thanks.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 May 99 - 12:00 PM

Neil, this a subject dear to my heart. Unfortunately I have to go to Niagara Falls this afternoon to play music so I gotta run. If this thread stays around I'll show you a few neat things. One suggestion though: Do you know the scale? (say from C to C) C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. Ascribe a number to each note. ie. C=1. D=2 etc. up to C=8 Memorize this, and I'll be back later!
rick


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 17 May 99 - 12:49 PM

okay Rick....GodSpeed and have a safe one.....I'll check back later....yes I do know a little bit about scales, theory, etc. Just enough to make me dangerous, as they say. Do, Re, Mi, Fa, etc. Got it.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Tony Burns
Date: 17 May 99 - 01:04 PM

Reggie, If you liked that site check out the one that got me there. Here's the trademarked Mudcat blue clicky thing that will take you there.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Don Meixner
Date: 17 May 99 - 11:07 PM

Jeepers Rick, you can show me, even if Neil ain't interested.

Don


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: reggie miles
Date: 18 May 99 - 12:54 AM

Thanks again Tony. Being a totally self taught hack of a player, with no kinda fancy book learnin' under me belt to speak of, it's nice to know that there's a site that explains all the reasons for my rhymings. Who says you can't teach ol' dogs. ;o)


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Night Owl
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:28 AM

Rick...got my homework done...sure hope there's more coming!!!!


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 01:46 AM

Neil, it's a beautiful sounding chord. Hard to name it though. "D7 raised 3rd (partial)" The "partial" means there is no "A" note, which would be in a "normal" D7.
If you like this kind of chord try this: Form any simple chord like "A" or Am or E or Cmaj7, and move it up the neck, stopping at each fret to see if you like the sound. Sometimes you'll have to go all the way to the 12th fret to find something harmonious. Lower the bass E to D and do the same thing. Now play a D7 form but use the 2nd 3rd and 4th strings instead of the usual 1st 2nd and 3rd. Move it up a fret at a time and see what happens. Experiment with every shape you can think of and then move it up the neck.
Remember that a major chord contains the: 1, 3, and 5 add the 7 and that's a 7th chord. add the 6 and that's a 6th chord. add the 2 AND the 7 and you've got a 9th. (James Brown's rythm guitarist spent a career playing 9ths)
If you add a 6 AND a 7 you've got a 13th chord. If you raise the 3 by one fret you've got a "suspended" chord. Your's is "sort" of a suspended chord with a 7th. It's easiest to practice these things in the key of C (no sharps and flats) but D (2 sharps) and G (1 sharp) aren't that difficult. Good luck
rick


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:33 AM

My very favourite chords at the moment: 1. Play an ordinary D major chord, take your finger off the 3rd string so that it rings out an open G, then instead of playing the D string as a bass note, try it out with different bass notes. eg. First with the low E string, then with G <3rd fret on 6th string> and then (For the finale) open A. If your fingers are feeling nimble, then try playin any chord of the sun that you would associate with D maj ie.A, Em, G with the 1st and second strings playing: 1st:F#(2nd fret) 2nd:D(3rd fret). This works especially well on the B parts of tunes to build back up to the A part. ALSO: My VERY favourite chord: Any time in a song or a tune in a MAJOR key that you want to play a minor chord, work out the fret of the note on your 6th string ie. for A minor it would be the 5th fret. Then put your second finger on that note ie. 5th fret, 6th string, your third finger on the same fret two strings down (5th fret 4th string) and your little finger; same fret, 3rd string. This works for any minor chord, providing you can get your fingers high enough up the frets. (Eb minor would be 11th fret!!). Ive taken the liberty of providing a pictorial platform to explain this madness! KEY 0 means leave the string rringing open. X means blank the string ie. try not to strum it,or use your finger to stop it ringing 1,2,3,4 are the numbers of you fingers, 1 being index. This is for substituting A minor As above. 1 2 3 4 5 <<-fret numbers E[] ] ] ] ] 0 ] B[] ] ] ] ] 0 ] G[] ] ] ] ] 4 ] D[] ] ] ] ] 3 ] A[] ] ] ] ] X ] E[] ] ] ] ] 2 ]

And the first chord I described: 1 2 3 4 5 E[] ] 2 ] ] ] ] B[] ] ] 3 ] ] ] G[] 0 ] ] ] ] ] D[] x ] ] ] ] ] A[] x ] ] ] ] ] E[] 0 ] ] ] ] ] Could this be a good thread to swap chords?? Cheers, Ian


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:47 AM

Sorry -I'll try again with HTML breaks. I've taken the liberty of providing a pictorial platform to explain this madness!
KEY
0 means leave the string rringing open.
X means blank the string ie. try not to strum it,or use your finger to stop it ringing.
1,2,3,4 are the numbers of you fingers, 1 being index.
This is for substituting A minor As above.
....1...2...3...4...5..<<-fret numbers
E[]---]---]---]---]-0-]
B[]---]---]---]---]-0-]
G[]---]---]---]---]-4-]
D[]---]---]---]---]-3-]
A[]---]---]---]---]-X-]
E[]---]---]---]---]-2-]

And the first chord I described: ....1...2...3...4...5..<<-fret numbers
E[]---]-2-]---]---]---]
B[]---]---]-3-]---]---]
G[]-0-]---]---]---]---]
D[]-x-]---]---]---]---]
A[]-x-]---]---]---]---]
E[]-0-]---]---]---]---]

If this goes wrong again, can someone more experienced with HTML try to fix it, PLEASE?? Cheers again, Ian


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 18 May 99 - 07:08 AM

Rick,

I see a pattern of addition in naming chords (i.e. you said play the 2nd and the 7th and you got a 9th: 2 + 7 + 9; 6th + 7th = 13th). I know there is such an animal as an 11th chord, but is it made by playing the 6th and the 5th or the 7th and the 4th, since both combinations add up to 11? If I knew how chords were formed, I wouldn't have to try to memorize them from books.

And I like those 9th chords in the blues numbers. I hear them all the time. You can really dress up a blues tune rhythmically by sliding the 9ths up and back a fret while waiting to change to the I,IV or the V.

Also, I do experiment with the normal chords by moving them up and down the neck to see what they sound like. I've done this with D, E, A, C and G (not so much G - it doesn't seem to work too well with G for some reason) in first position. You do get some interesting sounds sometimes. Thanks Rick, for the theory lesson. Regards, Neil.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 18 May 99 - 08:31 AM

But what was the one Jimmy Durante found??!!


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 May 99 - 05:59 PM

Wow, I like this. Here are my two all time favourite chords: D9th ..middle finger on 6th string, 2nd fret. index finger on 2nd string 1st fret. ring finger on 1st string 2nd fret. You can barre it too.

A 9th. ..Ring finger on 5th string, 4th fret. Index finger on 4th string, 2nd fret.
Love 'em both.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 May 99 - 08:54 AM

I'm having a discussion elsewhere about D sharp dim 7. WHat is it, why, and how is it fingered? I'm getting a lot of different answers and some trouble getting the cited programs to help(although I have an author's tip for one which I would try soon if it weren't my lunchbreak and nearly over at that.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 21 May 99 - 07:40 AM

Roger,

Against my better judgement, I'll bite: okay, what WAS the one that Jimmy Durante found?

Richard,

I'm not sure what makes a diminished 7th chord a diminished 7th. I was hoping another more enlightened individual would have jumped in here by now to edify us all. The "7th" of a chord is made by lowering the "root" (e.g. the "root" of a C chord is C) one whole step (two frets on a guitar). For the chord of D# that would mean lowering D# to C# to get the 7th. Now to diminish the 7th.....there's the rub. Possibly lower the 7th another half step (one fret)???? I don't know.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 21 May 99 - 08:17 AM

Rich, da**ed if I know! "I'm de man dat found de lost chord" he sang - I know there was some myth about a chord that had been once known but then lost to musical knowledge & then people searching for it. As I have no knowledge of musical theory (or practice!) I can't help- I thought some of the guitarists seemed to know some unusual ones!


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 21 May 99 - 08:20 AM

Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines 'diminished' (of a musical interval) as: "made one half step less than perfect or minor "....so maybe my previous post is correct.....at this late date it is all probably moot anyway.....


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: MichaelM
Date: 21 May 99 - 10:50 AM

Richard & Roger,

There is an old song (Victorian) called "The Lost Chord" which tells of someone idling at the organ when he strikes one chord of music like the sound of a great amen. The song goes on to tell of his fruitless search to refind "that one lost chord divine which came from the soul of the organ and entered into mine".

I learned it from a John McCormack recording.

Michael


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 21 May 99 - 11:02 AM

Yes that's the one: "Seated one day at the organ..." that Durante is "replying" to in his song. He, of course, finds it by hitting the piano keys with his "SCHNOZZ": "Odda people play by ear..."


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 21 May 99 - 12:15 PM

:-D great story!


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 May 99 - 03:05 PM

Well, I've enjoyed the living crap out of this thread for a lot of reasons. First and foremost would have to be my own experiences as a preteen and teen, very active in music theory and classical music (played 1st bassoon, all-state orchestra for 3 years straight) and how, when I became fascinated with folk and guitars, threw all that out the window and became a "It's On The Neck Somewhere" type of theorist. For some unknown reason I just refused to relate what I knew to guitar...and I still do. I love the discovery of a new note and a new sound in a chord. Hence, like many of you, I piddle around at differing frettings in differing positions. I really believe this is what makes guitar the most personal of all instruments. You are allowed so many freedoms with so little structure.

Teaching Karen has been fun because she is a structured and regulated type of person who was amazed the first time she accidently strummed open strings between chords...and it sounded good!!! She asked how come you could do that, and for the first time in 30 years, I started into an explanation theory, inversions, 4ths, etc. I scared myself silly and immediately stopped and said, "Who Cares?" What Karen needs more than anything else is to learn the freedom to try. I think in many cases, our school systems train us to give answers instead of ask questions......not just in music, but in everything.

My six year old, Michael, has been with his Daddy way too long already and has been filed in Kindergarten as a child who lives in his own little world. The exercise was for each child to build duplicates of the block models the teacher had built. One looked like a porch with steps. Mike built a porch with two sets of steps using the same number of blocks. The teacher said he wasn't doing the test properly and Michael could not understand why...especially since he had a set of steps for both up and down. This is why American education has become the inculcation of the incomprehensible to the indifferent by the incompetent. I know there are a lot of teachers here at Mudcat, and the ones I know certainly don't fit that at all...many of you are inspired folk, and that's what's required!!!! Our problems are not centered on bad teachers, but on incompetent teachers.

Holy Christ!!! I'm off for a few weeks and I'm really ready to ramble ain't I? What the hell was this thread about anyway??? Sorry..........This is a song about Alice....

Hey, I heartily recommend the "It's On The Neck Somewhere" method.......

catspaw


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Ian Stephenson
Date: 22 May 99 - 02:56 PM

I HAVE IT!!! I've been looking through my A-level music folder, and its where every single note is a minor third apart. (meaning 3 semitones or frets apart
eg. (this chord is'nt easily possible on the guitar!)
To make this a D diminished 7th then you add a B. Thanks for the challenge!!


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 22 May 99 - 03:09 PM

I went to two concerts this week. The first was David Wilcox. I don't think he played in standard tuning all night. Non-standard tunings just encourage the kind of exploration Rick is talking about.

Then two nights later I saw Alistair Frasier and Tony Mc Manus for a night of Scottish-based music. Tony's guitar never made it into standard tuning that night. I know for sure because I asked him. The only familiar thing I saw was DADGAD. He played several others, though.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 99 - 07:25 PM

Ian Stephenson: Thanx. That would make (for D dim7), the notes of D, F, Aflat, and then the B...However the Oxford Companion to music says that in the key of C (major or minor) the diminished seventh is the dominant major ninth with the root (G) missing, so in C, the notes of B,D,F,Aflat. I assume that if the (missing) root is G then the chord is G diminished seventh or Gdim7.

By my arithmetic if I drop that four semitones (or steps, if you are an American), that gives me (for D sharp dim7, which is where my train of thought started) a chord of G,Bflat,Dflat,F. Check me, I may be wrong. But if I am right first it looks suspiciously like Bflatm6 and second I can't see how to finger it fully (preferably using 6 strings) so why would some ***** put it in a chord chart and third the "luscious " effect the book speaks of seems to be missing.

By the same token D dim7 would be A flat, B, D, and F sharp - which comes out the same as yours!!!

So that must be the chord. Now all we need to figure out is why that is the chord, and how to play it. As to the fingering, C'mon all you jazzers out there, rise to the challenge!


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 May 99 - 10:54 PM

This is a fun thread. If any of you guitar players have the chance, try to get to the Puget Sound Guitar Workshop, held each summer at a camp by a lake across the Sound from Seattle. You will meet a couple hundred acoustic guitarists of all levels from rank beginner to pro (with a few other instruments thrown in) and a couple dozen outstanding teachers of all styles, and you will have a blast. Guaranteed to be at least one teacher who can induct you into the mysteries of fingerboard theory, tunings, and generally expanding the guitar part of your mind. Or you might take a class in songwriting, Delta blues, or Party Guitar. I don't know if they have a website by now, but a search might take you there. I'll contact the workshop director and ask if I can post a link or an email address.
I can't resist adding to this thread a song of mine, called The Perennial Beginner, or the F-Chord Song, with apologies to Lou and Peter Berryman, who probably don't need them.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 May 99 - 06:30 PM

I'm not too sure when and where the "sus" thing can be properly used but Neil's first chord looks to me like a GMaj7 with a C instead of a B. Would that make it a GMaj7sus4? That name at least seems more reasonable to me.

One of the problems with Chords is that any sequence of every-second-note is a chord of some type and the names change depending on which note you decide is tonic.

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 May 99 - 07:02 PM

Giving some thought (though probably not nearly enough) to Neil's second chord I come up with this:

The open strings of the guitar (or barred across any fret) constitute either a minor seventh chord or a sixth chord depending on how it's used. Given that, Neil's second chord might either be an augmented B minor seventh (B-7+) or a D6sus4 unless theory prevents the use of those names in polite speech.

Now someone please stop me before I strike again.

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Len N (inactive)
Date: 23 May 99 - 09:42 PM

What a great thread.... it is beyond me to be able to add anything of substance to it, but am reaping much... thanks.

Catspaw.... I have been away from the Mudcat for about a week. This thread was my first stop and I was surprised and pleased to see you about if not actually up. I am sure I will get the full scoop on some other threads, but welcome back.]

Len


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 24 May 99 - 09:00 AM

Mark Clark:

Thanks for the observations on the chords, especially the second one. The Bm7+ (excuse my notation if it is wrong) sounds plausible given that the chord is from a song that also has a(nother) bastardized E chord (E F# B) thrown in for good measure and is (loosely) based on the I,IV,V blues structure. In case you're interested, the chord is from Robin Trower's song, "About To Begin", from the album "Bridge Of Sighs" (my apologies to folkies and bluesists but I recently bought an electric guitar and I'll try to play ANYTHING if I think I can figure it out- in defense of Trower, however, you can tell he's been influenced by the blues, as most of his ilk were/are).

What you call the GMaj7sus4 I have to take blame for as an accidental discovery propelled by my perversely ignorant musical thought processes. I had always thought the root of this chord as being C, due to C being the bass note (and hence, the first note to be played when the chord is strummed) and therefore, the chord itself as some sort of C "mutation," but your explanation in your post about chords changing names depending on which note is tonic broadened my vista, so to speak.

Thank you and regards.......Neil


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 99 - 04:54 PM

Well I've now got the chord program running (my own ignrance was stopping it) and it doesn't seem to have any dim7 chords in it. So I still don't know how to play DsharpDim7 despite knowing the notes in it. Can anyone tell me?


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 25 May 99 - 07:45 PM

Hmmm, I seem to remember that Dim is just shorthand for Dim7. I don't have a guitar with me and I usually just play Dim7 chords without thinking about them---in other words, this may be wrong since I can't hear it---but I think one way to play a D#Dim7 chord is to play D# on the B string with your middle finger, F# on the D string with your index finger, A on the E string with your little finger, and C on the G string with your ring finger.

The interesting thing here is that each note is a minor third above the last and this continues into the next octave. That means that a D#Dim7 is identical (with inversions) in fingering to F#Dim7, A Dim7, and C Dim7. Since this is true, if you play that four-note chord at each of three successive frets, you've played all possible Dim7 chords as far as spellings are concerned.

This is only one example. There are other fingerings for Dim7 chords. The nice thing is they are highly mobile and work in lots of situations. One that comes to mind is the second chord played in Doc Watson's version of "Deep river Blues."

Hey this chord stuff is fun!

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 99 - 03:12 PM

Thanx Mark I'll try that and then see if I can get it out to 6 strings!


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 26 May 99 - 10:42 PM

Richard,

Another fingering for D#Dim7 is to play the D# and F# with a barre across the E, B, G, and D strings at the fourth fret. Then get the A on the bass E string with your middle finger. The ring finger notes the C on the G string. Two adjustments must be remembered. Place your middle finger so that A on the bass E is clearly sounded but let it rest on the A (fifth) string in such as way as to prevent it's making any sound when the chord is played. The other thing is to make your barre in such a way as to deaden the trebble E string in the same manner. You are left with the same four-note D#Dim7 chord as before but with the A on the bottom it has quite a different feel. Nice for accompanying those old jazz standards when the bass line is descending through the changes. Of course this fingering is just as mobile as the earlier one I posted.

Good luck,

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 May 99 - 03:36 PM

Mark, thanx again but....

The really good bit is that with your four string fingering it is (just) possible to get my thumb over the back of the neck and fret the A on the bottom E string, and letting the open A string ring it gives me a really moody yet rich chord. Of course it isn't mobile because of the unfretted string.

Now it is also just possible to adapt your muted barre chord as well (I would hate to have to get into position in a hurry) by turning and curling the first finger barre so that it frets the bottom A (not the A flat, so you are running sideways a bit across the frets), and then using the second finger to fret the D sharp on the A string.

But why is it not the same notes as the Oxford book says? It sounds right, but see my quote from the book above. There has to be a reason.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 May 99 - 12:12 AM

Richard,

The quote from your earlier message read:

"...the Oxford Companion to music says that in the key of C (major or minor) the diminished seventh is the dominant major ninth with the root (G) missing, so in C, the notes of B,D,F,Aflat. I assume that if the (missing) root is G then the chord is G diminished seventh or Gdim7."

I'm quite certain that I do not possess enough knowledge of music theory to argue with so lofty sounding a title as "The Oxford Companion To Music." I was not a music major which I guess is what makes these puzzles interesting.

I assume that by "dominant major ninth" in the key of C they are referring to the major ninth of the dominant chord (G) in the key of C. A G Maj9, then, might be spelled G,B,D,F#,A---that is to say a G Maj7 chord with a ninth on top. (Of course it might not. )If an F (flatted seventh) were used instead of the F# I thought you would have a straight G9 rather than a G Maj9.

I would have spelled a G Dim7 as G,Bb,Db,E and a C Dim7 as C,Eb,Gb,A which, incidentally, is a simple rotation of the spelling I provided earlier for D# Dim7, D#,F#,A,C.

If a major ninth chord is actually a *dominant* seventh with a *flatted* ninth on top then the Oxford example works out. Only the chord in their example is, I believe, intended to be a C Dim7, not a G Dim7. I interpret their definition to mean that the dominant major seventh chord in some key, less the root tone of that chord, produces the Dim7 chord of that (orignal) key.

After all that, we're probably better off just to take up the banjo. Quoting an unnamed artist, Pete Seeger once wrote that "There ain't no notes to a banjo, you just play it." Now where did I leave mine...

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 99 - 02:59 AM

Thanx Mark. I'll try to understand it later.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 28 May 99 - 07:07 AM

Simply fascinating to learn about the structure of chords, how they are named, how the intervals between notes are named, ad infinitum. I had a music theory class in college once many moons ago and loved it, but most of it was lost on me since I could barely read music and didn't know much more than where middle C was on the piano. Incidentally, working this stuff out on a keyboard would seem to provide a better visual representation of the theory- it just seems like it would be easier to see.

Mark,

I surmise that you use a method similar to mine when trying to figure out a particularly difficult chord, to wit: put all the "convolutions" into a chord with which you're more familiar (e.g., C) and then transpose the "convolutions" to the more difficult chord (e.g., D#- which by the way is a tricky key to play in, it seems, as it has double sharps in it: D#, E#, F##, G#, A#, B#, C##, D#. Is the key of D# not the same as the key Of Eb?? Eb would be a little easier to play in, I would think).....

But something about "roots" in you're previous post has me perturbed.....I always thought the root of a chord was the first note of the scale of that key...i.e., the root of a C chord was C. Could it be that I've been deceived (like THAT never happens) all these years?

Signed, Disillusioned In Des Moine


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 May 99 - 05:04 PM

Neil,

You are correct, I think. When I need to form an unfamiliar chord, I form one from which the target chord may be derrived and see what I have to change. Of course you can't do that unless you already know how the target chord is constructed musically. Not only that but you must also know where the root, third, fifth, sixth, seventh, etc. are in each chord pattern you play so you know which fingers to adjust. I do this when trying to work out a new piece. If I'm in a jam session or playing from a lead sheet, I need to play a sutible substitute that I already know even if the voicing isn't what I'd prefer.

As for roots, you are also correct. The root of a chord is the note from which the chord derrives its name, i.e., the tonic note. In the key of C the root of the G7 chord is G, not C.

There are situations with double sharps but I don't recall seeing a piece written in D#. I know quite a few tunes that are in Eb. I view the double sharp as a copout so we can pretend that a D# scale doesn't really have two Gs and no F. But then I'm not properly trained in music.

The music I play most of the time (Bluegrass, old-timey, country blues and other assorted traditional stuff) doesn't call for very elaborate chords. Well, blues has a lot of sevenths and ninths but those aren't exactly exotic. It's jazz, which I also enjoy, that provides real fun when it comes to chords. There you need to have a system of chords that lets you control the bass line, keep successive chords in the progression as close as possible, and still lets you add and substitute easily. First position chords or any chords with open strings really aren't very useful here.

You're in Des Moine(s)? I'm over in Cedar Rapids and I get to Des Moines on occasion. Do you have jam sessions over there?

Cheers,

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 May 99 - 08:19 PM

Addendum:

Neil, I don't see why D# (Eb) would be a difficult key in which to play. You only need to play all your D chords and scales one fret higher on the fingerboard. That's the great thing about the guitar, chords and scales can be played anywhere. You can be reading a D chart but playing in E because you've shifted everything up a whole step. Of course this doesn't work if your chords and scales contain open strings.

- Mark


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 07:12 AM

Des Moines just happened to come to mind because it started with a 'D' like 'D'isillusioned.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 01 Jun 99 - 02:25 PM

Neil.

Aside from the root tone of a chord, I have heard the term root used to describe the basic 3 tone chord upon which the more complex chords being discussed above are built. Mostly they refer whether the 'root' chord is a major or minor triad. For example, the 'root' of a D7sus4 is the D major chord containing the notes D-F#-A. Building the D7sus4 adds a fourth and a flat (or dominant) 7th to 'root' chord, yeilding D-F#-A-G-C. Similarly an Amin7 is based on the A minor root of A-C-E, and is consructed by adding the dominant or flat 7th (A-C-E-G).

Diminished chords (where all intervals are minor thirds) and augmented chords (where all intervals are forths) might be considered 'root' chord forms, but someone else would have to verify that for me.

Occasionally I have heard the resolving chord in a progression refered to as the root, e.g. the C chord when playing in the key of C. Its the key you typically return to complete/resolve the progression. But this usage may be incorrect, as the technical name for such a chord is the TONIC.

Best Regards.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 06:45 AM

Jack (who is called Jack).........

Thank you for the info on roots, etc. Also the explanation as to how diminished and augmented chords are constructed (i.e., the intervals between the notes)was interesting. As with a lot of other things in which I am interested, I wish I had time to formally study music theory at length. I think it is fascinating musically, as well as academically. As of late about as far as I got was checking out Amazon.com to see what titles they had available. One day I plan to go to my local library (God bless local lending libraries everywhere- I shudder thinking what it would cost me to read if I had to buy all these books) and search for those selfsame titles, as well as avail myself to what they have on hand. For now the information I am picking up on this thread suffices nicely.

Regards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Jack (Who is called Jack)
Date: 02 Jun 99 - 03:46 PM

Your welcome Neil. BTW I was boppin around OLGA (the On-line Guitar Archive) to see if they've made any progress in getting their non-public domain stuff back on-line. They have several very nice text files there on chord theory for the guitar. The link can be found on the Mudcat Links Page.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 03 Jun 99 - 07:08 AM

Thanks again, Jack (who is called Jack)....I will check it out.


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Subject: RE: Weird chords
From: Mark Clark
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:54 PM

Geoff the Duck gave put me in a notion to refresh this.


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