England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

David, having just read what you've written above, I figure you must have made a few typos or left out some punctuation (basic skills of the writer and poet), and I can't figure out what in blazes you are trying to say. Could you please re-state it?

In (ahem) English?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

Wav, you've lost me with that grammar.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

The perform your own national culture/they show us theirs; we show them ours way of English folk clubs of old, Don, was a good one, that should be brought back in England and beyond.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM

Okay, David. Live on in ignorance.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:05 AM

"The sad thing is that Wav has potential. He is enthusiastic, his voice could be quite pleasent IF he would take the effort to learn and train it. Same goes for his playing. Unfortunately, he has convinced himself that there is little left to learn, that he is at the pinnacle of his art." (Volgadon)...I keep listening to plenty of other folk singers, and to myself as I play a line, sing a line, play a line...in practise, with both English flute and keys.
I hear you Don, but still disagree on this matter, and stand by what I've said above, as well as on my site.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM

"P. S.   Of course, if a person has a singing voice that sounds like a plate of beans negotiating it's way out of the digestive system of a warthog, then perhaps one should not attempt to sing at all."

MYGAWD! What a perfect description of WaveyDavey doing that tripe about going walkabout with his pen. That one is just the worst...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM

I believe that's what he's saying, Woody. But how about bad English music, I wonder?

####

"…it's good that singers DO affect their voice for the genre (as part of out wonderful multicultural world)."

Traditional singers—not "singers of traditional songs," urban-born singers such as myself and most other singers who post here who learn the majority of their songs from records and song books, but singers who were born and grew up in the tradition and learned the songs they sing from family, friends, and those in their immediate surroundings—do not "affect their voice for the genre." They just sing. They sing as best they know how, in their own natural voices.

For a singer of traditional songs (see distinction above) to "roughen up" his or her voice or "affect their voice for the genre," rather than sing in their own natural voice in an attempt to sound "folksy" or "ethnic," is to be patronizing and disrespectful, not just to the traditional singers of these songs, but to the songs themselves. If these songs are worthy of being sung at all, they are worthy of being sung in a clear, natural voice, as well as one knows how. Again, I call attention to the quote I posted above.

This does not mean that one should try to sing these songs as if they were operatic arias or lieder. Definitely not! In fact, most people couldn't anyway. But out if respect to the song itself, you should sing it to the best of your vocal ability. I have no respect for the person who says, or indicates by the way he acts, that he thinks, "This is good enough. It's only a folk song, so I don't have to try to sing it well." That includes singing through your nose, putting a rasp in your voice if it isn't there naturally, or being indifferent to accuracy of pitch, just because you want to sound "like a folk singer." The nasality, the rasp, or singing off-pitch are not inherent in the song itself.

But a regional accent or dialect (and certainly a foreign language) often IS an inherent part of a song. So it should be sung with your best effort to sing in that accent, dialect, or language. If you have no talent for this sort of thing, then perhaps you shouldn't sing the song (at least for a paying audience, for whom you should do your best performances), but if you do, there is no good reason not to.

And as long as you understand what you are doing, and respect the material, there is no good reason NOT to sing songs from a culture which is not your own. To insist that one should not be allowed to sing any song that appeals to one is, at best, arbitrary, capricious, and ill-informed, and at worst, displays the attitude of a would-be tyrant.

Don Firth

P. S.   Of course, if a person has a singing voice that sounds like a plate of beans negotiating it's way out of the digestive system of a warthog, then perhaps one should not attempt to sing at all.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

So WAV what you're saying is that in England we should only perform good English music?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM

Actually, in the current exhibition at Cecil Sharp House by the anarchic folk visual artist David Owen , Woody's guitar has become a ukelele. But the sentiment hasn't changed.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM

The sad thing is that Wav has potential. He is enthusiastic, his voice could be quite pleasent IF he would take the effort to learn and train it. Same goes for his playing. Unfortunately, he has convinced himself that there is little left to learn, that he is at the pinnacle of his art.

If you'll recall the story I told about the archaeologist, Wav would be the guy arguing with him and the old codger, because he (Wav) has been to Stonehedge, and has watched Michael Woods' Troy series and a couple of Timewatch seasons!


Anyway, I am quite certain that Tom Bland is none other than the 'Cat's own resident nazi/fascist- David Hannam. Come on Dave, don't be shy, Woody's guitar is long gone, but we are still here....

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM

"I would like to hear your performance of American songs, Don, with or without guitar, and I have in the past put you into Google...anything on the web..?"

Nothing on the web so far, save by googling you can find some of the articles on folk music that I have written, particularly for "Victory Review" magazine—and of course, being led back to Mudcat posts. So far, no songs. But I have recently acquired some studio-quality recording equipment which I am in the process of learning to use, and when I get my studio set up, I intend to record a number of CDs. I will undoubtedly put some of the songs on the internet, possibly through MySpace, or more probably, a web site of my own. But that will be awhile.

But be forewarned! I will not limit my CDs or what I put on the web to only American songs. I will present samplings of the full run of my repertoire. Also, whether I accompany a song or ballad with my guitar depends on whether or not I think an accompaniment (as the quotation above says) enriches the whole effect.

Once I have these up on the web (and as I say, it will be awhile yet), if you don't want to hear me sing anything other than American songs, be careful what you click on.

Don Firth (one who finds pleasure and enlightenment in cultural diversity)

P. S. By the way, David, I first became actively interested in folk music, to the point of learning songs and study the subject, in 1952. I think that works out to about fourteen times as long as you've been at it. And as I say, you've watched folk music on television;   I've done folk music on television.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

'I've probably watched just about every BBC TV folk-music broadcast since 2004, I've read quite a lot (including forum posts), and listened to a lot of folk radio, as well as attending many singarounds, and a few festivals and instrumental sessions - so I standby the idea of an "intense" 4 and a half years into folk, as well as the idea that anthropology helped with "what to look for".'


Let's face it - the bloke is so delusional, and with such delusions of grandeur, that I suspect some dsort of fundamental personality disorder.

It would be sad if it weren't so frigging annoying.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

I would like to hear your performance of American songs, Don, with or without guitar, and I have in the past put you into Google...anything on the web..?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM

"...so don't sing them."

Up until this point, David, I thought there might be some hope for you. But that tears it!

I have made a career out of singing folk songs and ballads from England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Canada, and American and Anglo-American songs and ballads from all over this country. This numbers several hundred songs altogether, and I'm still learning new ones. My repertoire also includes a few songs in French, one in Serbo-Croatian, and another in Czech. Not only do I sing these songs, I go to the effort of learning the backgrounds of them as well.

The material I choose to sing was found sufficiently suitable for me to be asked to do a television series on folk music on educational television (my local PBS affiliate, my series funded by the Seattle Public Library), which I did. They were apparently acceptable, because I was later asked to do further programs. And as aforementioned, my singing—including songs for which I assumed an appropriate accent or dialect—was apparently sufficiently enjoyable by general audiences for me to have made a living at singing.

David, you say you learn about folk music by watching television. How shall I break this to you?

I DO the kind of folk music programs that you just watch!

By the way, two of my most requested songs have been "Bonnie Dundee" and "McPherson's Farewell." I have just recently learned "The Braes of Killiecrankie" and I have not yet sung it for a paying audience. I am currently learning a number of songs from The Corries' two song books. Accent and all!

No one! NO bloody person on the face of this earth is going to tell me what I should and should not sing. If I like a song well enough to want to learn it and sing it, the only thing that would stop me from singing it in public would be if the song does not get a good response from my audience.

So as far as you are concerned, David, I will give your remarks all the consideration they deserve. I'll let you work that out for yourself.

Don Firth

P. S. Having listened to you on MySpace, I'm quite sure that you have no idea of the amount of work and thought that goes into learning a song, studying it in all its aspects and deciding how best to present it, and then working out a guitar accompaniment—not just plunking chords, but developing an arrangement that supports the song without distracting from it). And having gone to this effort, and having been gratified by the audience response when I do these songs, you are now telling me that I should abandon them on the basis of your narrow-minded ideas of "cultural purity?"

For your own efforts at singing, you might consider the words of a prominent singer whose repertoire consists largely of folk songs:

"The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

IB: I hear you, but I still standby what I've said here - it's good that singers DO affect their voice for the genre (as part of out wonderful multicultural world).
I'll leave those Australian songs for Australians thanks, IB, dear adult - I'm an English repat.
This "a bit sweet for hymns/a bit gritty for folk songs" idea can be heard on myspace, if you like (e.g., "Cob a Coaling v When I survey the wondrous cross).
Speaking of Eliza and family, Dave and Howard, I wonder if she'd be so kind as to do a Nellie here and tell us if MC has ever played that very fine just-mentioned instrument - the English cittern.
Wanting a lot of people to read my life's work Ralphie and Snail?Guilty - becuase I'm sure it contains good ways forward for humanity.
"However his idea of what constitutes "good English culture" is quite simply mistaken." (Howard)..."enjoy yourself" (IB)...it is good and I do enjoy my participation in it.
"The point has been made repeatedly to WAV, that as a relative novice in the world of folk he knows little about it and his conclusions are incorrect. His refusal to recognise this and accept well-meant advice from those with a lifetime's experience and knowledge to me suggests arrogance rather than quiet dignity" (Howard)...I've probably watched just about every BBC TV folk-music broadcast since 2004, I've read quite a lot (including forum posts), and listened to a lot of folk radio, as well as attending many singarounds, and a few festivals and instrumental sessions - so I standby the idea of an "intense" 4 and a half years into folk, as well as the idea that anthropology helped with "what to look for".

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

Sean

I have no problem with WAV - I don't know him. The man I think I know is the one who posts on these threads which I find dubious in content scholarship and politics.

Quiet dignity seems absent to me in his posts. Overweening arrogance in a set of bizarre beliefs is what I see.

I toy with the idea sometimes that his posts are intended merely to aggravate, and think I'll not respond.

Then he posts something that's so off the wall I can't let it pass.

However my intention and I suspect that of many others is to attack the message not the man.

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

IB, I've not met him, but I'm perfectly happy to accept your statement that WAV is an OK guy. I'm also prepared to accept that he means well and that he's not intentionally racist. His concerns that English culture doesn't get the attention it merits are shared by many, of all political persuasions.

However his idea of what constitutes "good English culture" is quite simply mistaken. Many better-informed people have tried to put him straight, but he ignores them. His solution to the problem, that everyone should restrict themselves to their own culture (whatever that means), is cultural apartheid.

What you see as the "quiet dignity" of his replies, I see as a constant repetition of unsupported dogma. If WAV would only enter into a proper debate and discuss his arguments in reasoned manner, as one should expect from someone with a BA in Humanities, then we might still disagree with him but we might respect his arguments more. Instead we have heard no actual arguments fom him, simply bald and occasionally incomprehenible slogans.

I think it is frustration more than anything else that drives people to abuse and personal attacks - I may have been guilty of this myself on occasion, in which case I apologise.

The point has been made repeatedly to WAV, that as a relative novice in the world of folk he knows little about it and his conclusions are incorrect. His refusal to recognise this and accept well-meant advice from those with a lifetime's experience and knowledge to me suggests arrogance rather than quiet dignity.

WAV is an attention seeker. We should know better than to feed the trolls. But when someone puts forward views which are so utterly wrong and which might even bring folk music into disrepute, as Eliza has argued, it is difficult to remain silent

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Am I like this in real life?
Actually No. (surprisingly!! you might feel. I'm actually an OK guy) (Ralphie)

Can I just say that WAV isn't like that in real life either? He too is an okay guy; in fact, he's one of the most personable coves you could ever have the pleasure to meet. I may well be one of his fiercest ideological opponents, but hopefully my own personal ideology doesn't go so far as to overlook his essential humanity, not yet my admiration of the quiet dignity that typifies his contributions to these threads. So in the spirit of this present armistice, might I suggest we sing a verse or two of Kipling?

And when they bore me over much, I will not shake mine ears,
Recalling many thousand such whom I have bored to tears.
And when they labour to impress, I will not doubt nor scoff;
Since I myself have done no less and sometimes pulled it off.
Yea, as we are and we are not, and we pretend to be,
The people, Lord, Thy people, are good enough for me!

Deliver me from every pride - the Middle, High, and Low -
That bars me from a brother's side, whatever pride he show.
And purge me from all heresies of thought and speech and pen
That bid me judge him otherwise than I am judged. Amen!
That I may sing of Crowd or King or road-borne company,
That I may labour in my day, vocation and degree,
To prove the same in deed and name, and hold unshakenly
(Where'er I go, whate'er I know, whoe'er my neighbor be)
This single faith in Life and Death and to Eternity:
The people, Lord, Thy people, are good enough for me!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Tom Bland
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:23 AM

Ralphie - You want the thread to die? So stop reading it. I actually enjoy it.

I find it very revealing on the folk world and folk attitudes as a whole.

Someone said how come for all their radical political posturing, they don't come any more culturally reactionary than folkies.

All WAV is doing is telling you this.

He's showing folk up fr what it is. But not what is has to be.

So what he believes in these things. People can believe anything they want. Even if WAV would have the whole world bend to his will, it's hardly likely to happen, is it?

Lots of racists out there. Talk to anyone on the street. People are concerned.

We see countries riven by ethnic conflict. Even countries where people have been there forever. Africa. Jugoslavia.

WAV fears for racial harmony at a time battle lines are being drawn in the housing estates of Bradford.

Perhaps he is not the only one. Does this make him evil? To say these things?
To write of his concern?

Or just aware that sooner or later there will be rivers of blood? We see the first springs already.

WAV is a guy out of step with reality who believes in his right to culture.

Outraged by the treatment of Aboriginals, he has had the courage of his convictions and repatriated himself to the country of his birth.

He has seen indigenous peoples suffering. Like alcoholic Inuits dancing to The Birdy Song because of their contact with the west.

He also believes humanity could do with a bit of regulation.

Maybe we could. I say it myself. In my young day even 50 years ago things were better. We knew who we were - and who each other was too.

Maybe people don't know that anymore.

In my day if we made a nuisance of ourselves an adult would tell us off. In our day, chances are they'd kick him to death.

This isn;t racial - its a country going down the pan for all sorts of reasons but mostly because it lacks the one thing WAV is always saying.

Regulation. And people caring for the things that matter instead of profit and greed.

WAV talks about safety nets so people don't fall through into the poverty trap and homelessness.

In London, I step over the homeless on the underground not knowing if they're alive or dead.

We all do.

It's the English way.

WAV is not the answer. But neither is the sanctimonious feeding frenzy you all indulge in whenever he dares dip his toe in the water.

Shame on you all.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM

Ralphie

My point in the multiple postings was to alert everyone that we should get wise to what Wav is trying to achieve.

What WAV is trying to achieve is to get lots and lots of attention. He is succeeding remarkably well.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM

Thanks Ralphie. I've heard you on the radio before and you didn't seem that weird.

Sometimes it seems to me that some people grew up thinking that it was alright to be a bully as long as you bullied the right people. There are those here I don't much care for, but if I spent all of my time going after them, I wouldn't much like myself. I'll have my say and move on as Eliza did earlier. I don't like bullies and I don't want to be one.

Even bullies who bully the wrong people, the innocents, think they have a good enough reason to do it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

Point taken.
But. Am I alone?
I did ask the question a while ago.
Is Wavs version of reality in any way reciprocated by anyone else?
The answer...No!
Am I like this in real life?
Actually No. (surprisingly!! you might feel. I'm actually an OK guy)
My agenda, If you want to call it such, is to point out that this person has decided to tug all of our strings. And, I will admit that my strings have been pulled a bit more than others, Mea Culpa.
My Fondest Wish, is that all these threads should die, gently.
There is so much on the Cat that is of real interest.
My problem with Wav, is that he won't let it it all go.
You may think that my postings are unpleasant...
Try reading Catspaws input.
Nonetheless. point taken, but, I don't like to see my musical work put down in the way that Wav does. And, many others agree.
My point in the multiple postings was to alert everyone that we should get wise to what Wav is trying to achieve.

If we could all let the whole thing go, so will I, and I'll get back to the discussion about MiniDisc v DAT v whatever.

Far more interesting IMHO.
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Tom Bland
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

I was just about to say the same thing actually.

Next to this sanctimonious sycophant WAV seems almost reasonable.

WAV gets up people's noses because he's the perfect mirror of the folk world and they don't like what they see.

Fun to read the threads though. Mudcat wouldn't be any fun at all without WAV.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:33 AM

Damn! I wish I would have noticed this 5 days earlier when it was posted - But at least no one else has commented yet so I cannot resist:-)

Ralphie to Eliza "Have just purchased your new waxing this very afternoon"

Eliza! Do the family know about this? Ralphie - You would be better thought of if you kept a ladies personal details to yourself.

Then Ruth started on bum gazing! We have a local haulier called R Swain (Say it aloud please) I always reckon it is the opposite to R Swacks.

As to poetry

An instrument I seek, as English as can be
Heard on the high streets, Why is it so off key?
'tis the screams as wax pulls hair from their bits
An instrument of torture, to get on everyones nerves...

WAV eat your heart out. Just of to a BNP meeting. See you later...

:D

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM

Ralphie, do you know how you look when you keep responding to what you hate, constantly, reliably, repetitively?

Do you even have the ability to stop or are you completely helpless?

If the guy's threads get hundreds of posts from poor puppets, if you actually take the time to count the posts (many of which are yours) and then take the time to announce this research to the forum SEVERAL TIMES, don't you think that makes you look a bit dim, or at least fairly easy to control?

Are you like this in real life? Do people avoid you at parties because you don't know when to stop talking? This is the impression I'm getting.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dame Nellie (aka Ralphie)
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:48 AM

I think we'll just have to leave the Cats toying with the Mouse. (or is that Rat, Gerbil, Hamster - Insert Australian Marsupial here...Wav anyone? -
Come on Chaps.. Be generous, It wasn't his fault, just some malfunctioning gene.
Leave him alone. What has he ever done to you?
Can't you see he's injured?
Where is your humanity, guys?
Don't kick a bloke when he's down.
Leave the poor Possum alone.
(Have to admit, he's got a healthy kick on him. but, the inevitable will happen.)
Nurse....prepare the needle.......Ready??

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,surreysinger at work
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM

Dear Dame Nellie

"Has he changed his bizarre view on life?"

Errmmm ... no
"Is he going to?"

I suspect the answer is definitely "No, a thousand times no!"

"Are we wasting our time?"

Decidedly "YES"

Dame Nellie the Second (since I notice that I too also said previously that I was out of here)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 09:21 AM

I sing hymns in my normal, sturdy voice. Don't sing raucously, as that's not appropriate, but what is is trying to put the same feeling into the words as you would during a prayer.

Wav, you are not English, you are not Australian, just a confused immigrant. If you are wondering where I, a stranger, get off telling you who you are, remember that that is what you are doing to every person alive.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM

you've made more comebacks than Nellie Melba

I had to look this one up, WAV; another example of your indelible cultural roots.

we should endeavour to sound more earthy when singling folk than when in church, e.g.

When singing in church (which I do two or three times a year) I'm not aware of singing any different to how I do when I'm singing in a singaround chorus, though of course I don't harmonise, and I'm careful of my dynamic too, not wishing to dominate the increasingly feeble congregations. Whatever happened to singing lustily and with good courage, I wonder? Even singing Gelineau Psalms and Latin Chants with the monks of Worth Abbey I was very conscious of singing in my own voice, though quietly studying the method of the unison devotional chorus in a particular acoustic space. Often, one just listened! I think it's a matter of not affecting any sort of voice one way or the other. Do people still put on the folk voice I wonder? I don't hear any evidence of it - certainly not as much as when watching the X-Factor (or some such show) and you hear kids putting on the pop voice because they think that's what singing is.   

...so don't sing them - just enjoy listening to Scots sing them

By the same token, WAV - you shouldn't be singing Cob a Coaling at all, let alone attempting to adopt (however so unsuccessfully by the way) any sort of faux-northern accent to do so, no matter how much I might enjoy your rendering of the song otherwise (I've even been moved to work up a version myself; expect to hear it on my Myspace page nearer the time). Anyhoo - THESE are the songs you should be singing; great songs one & all. If you really believed in this policy of singing your own, then put your cultural currency where your mealy-mouth is, dear boy - and lead by example.

Actually - how far should we take that policy? Should I, for example, only sing Northumbrian songs? It's a tempting notion - and one that would keep me busy for the rest of a very happy folk-life no doubt, but, as usual the overriding maxim must be I think you'll find it isn't quite as simple as that... No, I'll stick to singing from the English Speaking Tradition, which might just include a few Australian songs too, such as Jim Jones and Glass on the Bar though I don't attempt the accent, any more than I do when I sing The Santa Fe Trail or Up on the Roof. Be true to your own, WAV - but above all, be true to yourself, because whatever your race, your ethnicity, your country of birth, your country of adoption, your culture both actual and imagined, there's only ever going to be one you, a life too short at any rate (though I dare say many here would disagree) so just wind in your neck and enjoy yourself.

Again: "nationalism with conquest is bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity"

I disagree; nationalism with conquest is the stuff of human history and has been good for humanity for thousands of years. Without it we would have turned to a passive lifeless hippy slop which would certainly NOT be good for humanity in the slightest. Eco-travel and fair-trade? These are choice oxymorons, WAV - trendy liberal middle-class platitudes with which you hope to curry favour with those trendy liberal middle-class folkies you mistakenly feel must be somehow sympathetic to your bizarre cause. High ideals that fall some way short of the mark...

Nellie Melba, though - great stuff, kidda; I'm still chuckling.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

so don't sing them - just enjoy listening to Scots sing them, and Scots and others can enjoy listening to your American songs, some of which are, as you've said, variations of songs from the nations of these isles. Again: "nationalism with conquest is bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity" (above link).

How is singing a Scottish or American song IMPERIALISM?
ENOUGH WITH THE MINDLESS REPETITION OF POINTLESS PHRASES.


"Your problem, WAV, is that you imagine that there was a time when a "pure" English culture existed, free from nasty foreign influences. It never did, whether you go back 50 years or 500."
He has had it pointed out to him that morris dancing came from Northern Iberia, which in turn probably came from North Africa. It has also been pointed out that the recorder did not originate in England, and neither did the cittern, a GERMAN instrument, popular in France and probably brought to England by Italian musicians playing popular European music.
The reason he is so partial to these instruments is not really because he enjoys the sound, but because they had the term English in their names once.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

WAV, I've read, read, read what you posted just before Tootler's post, and I can't fathom what it's got to do with his comment, which was about being self-critical of one's own performance - essential if you aspire to be a musician.

I too watched the BBC programme about the guitar, and I agree, the cittern/gittern sounded quite pleasant, although it did not appear to be capable of as much expression as the guitar, for example,and I suspect I would grow soon tired of the sound. Which is probably why it fell out of use.

No one has said you are factually wrong about the use of the cittern in barbershops, simply that it has not been part of English culture for several centuries. Culture, especially a traditional culture, is on onging stream - you can't pick a particular element of it from at a particular time and claim that it, and it alone, is truly representative.

If you want to focus on a particular period, as the cittern player in the programme does, that's fine, but by your own logic you should then drop all the later songs, including all those hymns, from your repertoire.

Most of us recognise an ongoing tradition which had rejected the cittern and recorder in favour of fiddle, melodeon and concertina, and which welcomed new material from any source. A great many tunes well-established in the English tradition, including many Morris dance tunes, came from the popular theatre, including the minstrel shows. I suppose you would say these cannot now be performed.

Your problem, WAV, is that you imagine that there was a time when a "pure" English culture existed, free from nasty foreign influences. It never did, whether you go back 50 years or 500.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:46 AM

OK Chaps.

Just done an audit.
Nat Istrument thread...........563
Walkaboutverse2 thread.........703
5000 Morris Dancer thread......724

Grand total...................1990 posts
Has he changed his bizarre view on life?
Is he going to?
Are we wasting our time?

Thats enough publicity for this person. (I say person, not Singer, Musician, Poet, That would be too demeaning for those of us who attempt in whatever way we see fit, to further ALL of the Arts that we are involved with).

Who else on Mudcat has enjoyed this much oxygen of publicity?
We are all suckers.
Lets all go and talk to some of the many interesting and erudite people on other threads, and leave Wav to his weird world.

(you could say "Mudcat is WAV-ing goodbye"...with apologies to Sooty!)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:33 AM

For those who wish to hear whatever to hell it is that Wavylimpdick means when he speaks of proper earthy folk singing and the like, go listen to him do "Walkabout With My Pen"


If you're in need of a good laugh, that one is a must hear. I've been playing it for friends and have linked it to several by e-mail and they all think its really bad and really funny. If you haven't started chuckling right away, just wait til the whistling bit or the way he says "tropical." It is just the worst kind of crap you can imagine.

Enjoy


Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM

And WAV if you want to know why you irritate people, just read this from your post to a guy who was a folkie when you were in nappies

'(Don)...so don't sing them - just enjoy listening to Scots sing them'

How incredibly rude. Think, edit, think again before you post

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM

So Don, sorry mate. You've got to severely limit your repertoire FROM NOW ON. And reciting Hiawatha won't do I'm afraid.

For myself I seem to be stuck with 'Sumer is icumen in' but I don't have the earthy voice necessary.

By the way WAV 'Ye' is not olde Englishe for 'The'. The character is not 'Y' but thorn,and is best represented by 'The'.

And above I think you ran short of the double full stop e g e.g..

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:37 AM

"the most important thing you can do is LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN" (Tootler, BACK from holiday?)...why don't you READ READ READ what I posted just before this comment, e.g.
Stu - I don't know of any "Fork Lift (Advanced)" but I did achieve an Advanced Cert. in Manufacturing Technology."
'I take a dim view of someone who adopts an accent or manner of speaking more or less permanently in an effort to create the impression that they are something they are not, such as the urban-born singer of folk songs who consciously "roughs up" the sound of an otherwise fairly smooth singing voice in order to sound "folkie." There are quite a number of those people running around (including a few quite well known singers), and the word that springs to mind is "phony."' (Don)...I disagree - we should endeavour to sound more earthy when singling folk than when in church, e.g. (as I've said here).
"I don't see how I—or anyone—could sing a song such as "Bonnie Dundee," "McPherson's Farewell," or particularly, "The Braes of Killiecrankie" without adopting a Scots accent. The song would sound bizarre without it! And there are other songs that call for other accents in the same way." (Don)...so don't sing them - just enjoy listening to Scots sing them, and Scots and others can enjoy listening to your American songs, some of which are, as you've said, variations of songs from the nations of these isles. Again: "nationalism with conquest is bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade is good for humanity" (above link).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

My abject apologies to Mr. Donegan! Indeed!

I take a dim view of someone who adopts an accent or manner of speaking more or less permanently in an effort to create the impression that they are something they are not, such as the urban-born singer of folk songs who consciously "roughs up" the sound of an otherwise fairly smooth singing voice in order to sound "folkie." There are quite a number of those people running around (including a few quite well known singers), and the word that springs to mind is "phony."

However, the ability to adopt—temporarily—an accent or dialect for an acting role or to deliver a particular song is part of the well-rounded performer's art. But this demands that the performer do it well.

Hugh Laurie, probably best known (at least in the United States) for his work in television, portraying characters such as Bertie Wooster or various vacant-skulled characters in "Blackadder," assumes an American accent for his leading role as an idiosyncratic physician in "House." He does it so well that American viewers who are not familiar with his previous work (or where he's from) automatically assume that he is an American actor.

I don't see how I—or anyone—could sing a song such as "Bonnie Dundee," "McPherson's Farewell," or particularly, "The Braes of Killiecrankie" without adopting a Scots accent. The song would sound bizarre without it! And there are other songs that call for other accents in the same way.

I've done this ever since I first started singing, never assuming that there was anything wrong with it, because I had heard many well-known and respected singers doing it. But—I also made note of the fact that unless it is done well, it doesn't come off. Therefore, before singing a song that requires an accent or dialect, I listen to speakers of that accent or dialect until I can mimic it as exactly as humanly possible.

The ability to do this well and convincingly is an essential tool in the kit of any singer or actor who aspires to perform professionally and who does not wish to limit themselves to a single category of songs or roles.

Of course, there are people such as David, who maintain that one should not be allowed to sing songs other than those of their own "culture." But what is my culture, exactly? Urban-born and raised in California, moving to western Washington State at the age of nine where I have lived most of my life, descendant of Scots on my father's side and Swedes on my mother's side, exposed to a wide variety of cultural influences and hearing many different accents and dialects—so again, what is my culture?

David seems to imply that as an American, I should set my guitar aside, play a drum, and do native American chants.

I have heard some native American music, but nowhere near enough to grasp the broad, multicultural aspects of it, and I've seen one performance of Northwest Indian dancing in live performance. Although interesting, it is totally alien to me, and I don't know how anyone could consider this to be even a minuscule part of my culture.

I am not restricted to one single culture. I am a citizen of the world—nay, a citizen of the Cosmos. I reserve the right to sing any songs I chose, regardless of whatever culture they came from. I have always done this. People have paid good money to listen me do this, enough so that I've been able to make a living at it. And those who have heard me sing a song in a dialect not my own know perfectly well what I am doing, and I have never heard anyone object or comment negatively.

No one is holding a gun to anyone's head, so if anyone doesn't like what I do and the way I do it, they don't have to listen. There are plenty of others who do.

I am not particularly fond of Klingon opera, but if I found the songs of the inhabitants of the second planet orbiting Epsilon Eridani appealing to me, and if I could wrap my mouth around these songs, I would learn them and sing them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:56 PM

Of course Tootler, if you're already an accepted expert in the field having written,e.g.,several hundred lines of, e.g., verse(sic), and, sung, and e.g, played E trad. music on e.g., English Nose flute...

It's hardly necessary to quote experts, e.g., after all, what do they know that isn't covered by e.g., a B.A. in Humanities majoring in e.g., Anthropology, and, e.g., Fork Lift (Advanced)

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM

Well said Ralphie! I said something similar a week ago. I come back from a week's holiday and I find this thread is still grinding on.

WAV, you say you have a BA in Humanities. Well, the people I knew who taught on Humanities degrees were at great pains to stress the importance of supporting one's assertions with credible evidence (as did those of us who taught the sciences). This means by reference to the acknowledged experts in the field. Citing your own poetry and Wikipedia is most definitely NOT making reference to credible evidence so why should we take any notice of what you say.

Also if you are truly interested in music of any form then the most important thing you can do is LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN. If you were to do that, you would very rapidly become dissatisfied with your material on your Myspace page and do something about it. Until you do, then I for one will not be able to take anything you say seriously at all because it will merely demonstrate to me that you are not willing to either learn or to improve.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM

According to "Imagine: the story of the guitar" (BBC) that said above of the English cittern is indeed the case: the gittern (gut strung) of medieval times was replaced by the similar but wire-strung cittern in Elizabethan times, available for any man to play apon visiting a barber shop; or for travelling minstrels. Also, this chap played one, that he said was carved out of the one piece of wood, and it sounded, and looked, great.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

Don - if you were English, e.g., would you sing in an American accent or your own?
Ralphie - you've made more comebacks than Nellie Melba; and, during this last one, you've just about agreed with me! on accents
(P.S: I have, as it happens, just come across something new for the BS "5000 Morris Dancers" thread.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM

there is no 'American' accent, but many.

That's one of the reasons I don't like people putting on a generic American accent to sing.

But we'll continue this another time. Wise words, Ralphie, and TTFN.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:10 AM

Have just noticed that WAVs "5000 Morris Dancers" thread has dropped off the bottom of the BS pile, and it looks like "WAV Verse 2" is heading the same way.
If we can all resist baiting him, maybe this one will go the same way?
It's not easy, but WAV will never change.
Nothing we can say will alter that fact.
If we can resist the temptation to post anymore. Then we will see how he reacts.
If he revives any of his recent threads, (which he probably will), then the rest of us will be vindicated.
So, I'm out of here, and would ask, with respect, the rest of you to join me.
Thanks for some very interesting posts.
In spite of the reasons for them, I have learnt a lot.
Doubt if WAV has though!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:51 AM

Lonnie Donegan English ? he must be spinning in his grave Don, he was a Scot.

eric

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:26 AM

I tell you what is being used far "TOO broadly" (Volgadon)...an American accent by those living in the nations of these isles: as usual on Saturday nights, I'm flicking between folk radio programmes, via satellite, and, sadly, at least 70% of songs, thus far, must have been sung with this foreign accent; there's been no mention of it being such a theme night, but it is particularly heavy on this occasion, for some reason...we've even had Tom Jones singing a Lonnie Donegan song!

This foreign accent, which is a developement of English ones and in some cases is closer to English accents of 200 hundred years ago, closer than even that of your parents, is that the foreign accent you mean?
Is this better? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8QcrF1oBwg
Anyway, have you given thought to the matter that often, whilst singing, a person's natural accent isn't as pronounced as when singing? Phil Lynnot is a good example.

I've just had a listen to I'm Never Gonna Fall in Love Again. I can't say that it really sounds like Jones is putting on an American accent.

Oh, and one other thing, there is no 'American' accent, but many.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:38 PM

I have to say, I can't be doing with people deliberately adopting an accent, temporarily or permanently - but that goes for people trying to sound English as well as people trying not to. As I believe Frank Zappa said, you are what you is.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

Most people consider cross-cultural influences to be an enrichment of both cultures. If this is the sort of thing that upsets you, then I'm afraid you're in for a pretty rough ride.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:10 PM

...his son was also singing in a very broad American accent having done the interview in an English accent: not "the end of the bloody world" (Don) but very sad, as we in England do have our own good culture; too many here seem to have been taught that the height of culture is to be good at the performance (rather than just appreciation) of others' culture.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

Uh--a Welshman singing a song previously sung by an Englishman?

It's the end of the bloody world, it is!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:45 PM

I tell you what is being used far "TOO broadly" (Volgadon)...an American accent by those living in the nations of these isles: as usual on Saturday nights, I'm flicking between folk radio programmes, via satellite, and, sadly, at least 70% of songs, thus far, must have been sung with this foreign accent; there's been no mention of it being such a theme night, but it is particularly heavy on this occasion, for some reason...we've even had Tom Jones singing a Lonnie Donegan song!