Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?

Subject: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:35 PM

Dear Friends,

An interesting discussion I overheard today with two friends discussing the lyrics to "Lord of the Dance".

One recalled that she heard an Anglican choir singing a set of lyrics which were openly anti-semitic naming Jews. The only lyrics I know of make mention of "pharisees". Were there other lyrics? An older version which was anti-semitic?

Len Wallace

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:57 PM

I have heard Tommy Makem sing this song for over 30 years and have never thought of it in this light. It is describing an incident that is related in the New Testament. Although as a Jew I do not believe in the New Testament I can not expect the Christians to rewrite their Bible to meet the standards of political correctness that exist in the 21st century. In my opinion It is not at all anti-semitic.
                                                 SOL

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:17 AM

Sol is on the right track. The part referring to the Scribes and the Pharisees not following Jesus is a direct reference to political conflicts between the mainstream and various sects, such as the Essenes.

There is argument over whether he and his followers were a splinter group from the Essenic tradition. As such, they would have been seen as a threat to the estabilished political order, as operated by the more liberal groups which got along to some extent with the Romans.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:15 AM

Weren't the Pharisees always emblematic of the conventionally minded, followers of the letter at the expense of the spirit, exotericists as opposed to esotericists?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:31 AM

I'm sure we've been here before - this has been discussed in earlier threads - but here goes.

The verse,

I danced on the Sabbath
And I cured the lame;
The holy people
Said it was a shame.
They whipped and they stripped
And they hung me on high,
And they left me there
On a Cross to die.

accuses the Jews ("The holy people") - not the Pharisees, but the Jews - of crucifying Jesus. With all due respect to Rabbi Sol, that is an antisemitic lie - indeed, it is THE antisemitic lie, the one that led to terrible suffering by Jews down the ages.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:13 AM

Gerry, it's hard to imagine that's what Sydney Carter was thinking, from what one can learn of him.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:22 AM

LotD has become shorthand for all that is worst in communal singing. It conjours visions of vicars doing the twist at the youth club.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:23 AM

I'd read this differently, actually.

I'd read it as saying "the holy people" - the people who are "whited sepulchres", who stick religiously (!) to the *forms* of religion, were the ones who killed this dancing, joyous rebel.

To me, the song says "I danced, and those who ran a joyless religion killed me for it".

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:27 AM

"Holy people" in any language or religion are the priests/imams/gurus etc. It stretches the meaning too much, to ascribe to it the meaning "jews".

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:59 AM

Was ' Lord Of The Dance ' anti semetic ? what a politicaly correct shite
question, Sidney Carter was a humanist, no way was he ever anti semetic.

This shit thread needs removing.

eric

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:15 AM

No no no

I do not believe that Sidney Carter had this in mind

Just a reflection of what the bible said was happening at the time in his own Jewish community

Ray

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:25 AM

The accuser is eliding "they" with "holy people". He may be grammatically correct, but surely in the context of poetry, the "they" is generic, not specific.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:49 AM

Yes we have been here before unfortunately.

To those who saw Sydney Carter or read his books, it seems like a terrible libel of his name.

The spririt of the clause analysis of his lyrics is so different from the broad minded, generous spirit of the man himself. It shocks us.

Lets hope theres a special section of hell where the spiritually dead get to parse their own utterances for sins they can accuse themselves of.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:52 AM

George, the (Hebrew) Bible refers to the Jews repeatedly as "a holy people, a kingdom of priests." I think that to somone as familiar with the Bible as Carter, "the holy people" could only mean the Jewish people.

But let's for the sake of argument assume that Carter was just referring to the priests, or the Pharisees, or some other subgroup of the Jews. The fact remains that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus; the Romans, and not some or any or all Jews. To attribute the crucifixion to (some of) the Jews is an anti-semitic lie, the original anti-semitic lie on which all the others are built.

Ravenhart, I don't know what Carter was thinking. All I know is what he wrote, and it's up there in black & white, and it's antisemitic.

Eric the red, I'll answer your objection, if you'll present it in terms suitable for public speech.

Richard, I can only tell you what it looks like to me. I can't see how "they" can refer to any but "the holy people."

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Tim
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:58 AM

To quote Lee & Herring: "I am the lord of the dance settee".

Actually I always hated this song, especially as there's no mention of Jesus dancing, anywhere in the New Testament. If we're gonna start making Bible stories up then... oh.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:00 AM

I thought that it was the Romans who (are alleged to have) crucified Jesus?

Fancy that, all these years and the wrong people have been persecuted!

Still it's an easy mistake to make if you must live your life according to some 2000 year old writings of dubious provenance.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:27 AM

Perhaps our friend Gerry is suffering from some sort of guilty conscience which makes him see this song as a personal accusation. If you are looking that hard for anti-semitic implications you could probably find as many in your standard insurance contract.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:27 AM

Rather in indulging in a "Oh poor me look what my ancestors suffered" mentality about people who are so distant in the past that most dont even have names now and you would probably have despised if you had met them. I would much rather hear what each and every one of you is doing to right the wrongs and stop the oppression in your own community.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:36 AM

I don't think for a moment that Carter would have had a bleeding clue about the minutiae of the terms of reference in The Bible.

If you read about him and his background, you would know that.

Your analysis of the man and his intentions has the perspicacity of someone who thinks 'Its Grand to be gay on St Nicholas Day' is about being a homosexual.

You are sullying the memory of a man that many of us in folkworld held dear.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:37 AM

> I can't see how "they" can refer to any but "the holy people."

"They" is an accepted and widely-used shorthand term for any faceless, nameless amorphous mass of Other Guys who do things to you. They're raising the taxes again. They haven't fixed the road yet. They're telling us we need to use less fuel. They can't dictate hemline-lengths to us every year anymore. In song lyrics there are too many to name, but the opening lines of "Wish You Were Here" will do: "They're not making the skies so blue this year... they're not shining the stars as bright, they've stolen the joy from the night..."

In other words, we grow up under an army of Theys who control our lives at every turn, religious and otherwise. JTT and George have exactly described my own interpretation of that term and that lyric. I used to sing it all the time when I was a kid - and again later when I occasionally had to sing TO kids - and I have always thought of that line as simply meaning all the pious and narrow-minded my-way-is-the-only-right-way types who inflict judgment on everything, sacred and secular, and punish accordingly. Plenty of those around, and they come in all shapes and sizes and colours.

In addition to being a leader, Jesus also worked outside the comfortable norms of society - a stance that is always going to annoy the authorities (religious no less than political), challenge their power, and get you into trouble. This is how I have always read this lyric. Anti-Semitism is certainly not the only interpretation one can put on it (and it had not even occurred to me before now). I think it's one of those cases of "you find what you're looking for".

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:44 AM

Those who wish to be offended invariably find a reason.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:48 AM

I wonder just who, is feeling guilty here?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:53 AM

I suppose I had better stop singing "I wish I was in Lancashire" which contains the awful anti-semitic line "and I wish I was in Lancashire a hunting o'er the dew". The Irish are in lumber straight way with that thinly disguised hate song "The foggy dew" and every mention of 'holy people' or 'they' should of course be instantly striken from the English language.

It is people like Gerry that give political correctness a bad name. You don't work for the government, local or central, by any chance do you Gerry? I suggest you concentrate your efforts trying to eliminate real hate instead of making it up.

D.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:29 AM

I hate it when christian groups take songs and try to "christianise" them, often totally out of context. An example is Bette Midler's 'From a Distance' - when the phrase "god is watching us" is just repeated over and over, as if it has some deep religious significance.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:38 AM

It's this sort of crap that changed my beliefs from Christian to aetheist... that and the 'double bluff' emotional blackmail that's rife amongst organised religions..

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:55 AM

So what significance/offence is someone going to take from Crow on the Cradle?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

What about

"A Jew Sweet Lovely Nancy"?

In case anyone wants to be offended, that was a flippant joke.

I may misremember this, but surely Pontius Pilate (Roman) tried to pass the buck to Herod Antipas who passed the buck back to Pilate, who then offered the assembled Jewish throng the choice of pardoning Jesus or a well-known thief, Barabbas, and the crowd chose to pardon Barabbas, so it was in the end a Jewish decision to execute Jesus, wasn't it? So who were "they" I'm with Bonnie in the interpretation.

Not that I am much bothered, but it seems worth thinking about the facts as set out (if accurately) in the gospels.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Alan G
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:28 AM

theleveler said
"An example is Bette Midler's 'From a Distance' - when the phrase "god is watching us" is just repeated over and over, as if it has some deep religious significance."
My understanding is that it was originally written as "IF God is watching us, God is watching us from a distance" i.e. He can't see what is going on close up - which makes a lot more sense

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:38 AM

If Sydney Carter were alive I would dare anyone to go to him and explain what he meant when he wrote the words.

Ask any singer songwriter that does the rounds and they will tell you that this does happen to them. It annoys them usually and they are too polite to disabuse the "knowing" - usually.

If you see a meaning in the words then you have to take ownership of the interpretation and be judged along with the originator.

To the pure, all things are pure.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:39 AM

Thankfully though, when Simon Nicol covered From A Distance he dropped the entire God is watching us part. Back to thread though, I see no anti-semitism in the song..

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:46 AM

Syndey Carter was a Quaker, as I am though that is probably irrelevant.
Sydney as WWD said wouldn't quote literal Bible phrases even if he knew them
Here is a short quote from Sydney about his understanding of Jesus and the song in question.He said that he saw Christ as "the incarnation of the piper who is calling us. He dances that shape and pattern which is at the heart of our reality. By Christ, I mean not only Jesus; in other times and places, other planets, there may be other lords of the dance. But Jesus is the one I know of first and best. I sing of the dancing pattern in the life and words of Jesus."

I love him.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: danensis
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:53 AM

Clearly the whole if the New Testament is an anti-semitic tract, and should be withdrawn immediately, and all copies burned.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:54 AM

From another Sidney Carter song (Friday Morning
In the song the words are coming from the one of the robbers crucified along with Christ
"It was on a Friday morning that they took me from my cell
And I saw they had a carpenter to crucify as well.
You can blame it on to Pilate, you can blame it on the Jews,
You can blame it on the Devil, it's God I accuse.
It's God they ought to crucify, instead of you and me,
I said to the carpenter a-hanging on the tree."

That'll be Sydney then - a long long way from a religious intolerant or fundamentalist wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:55 AM

I've sung "Lord of the Dance" many times at Mass in the Catholic Chnurch, and often at singarounds, and I have to say it has always made me uneasy. I wouldn't say it's outright anti-Semitic, but the lines about the "holy people," "Scribes and Pharisees," and "how can you dance with the devil on your back" make me cringe.

Same with with "God is watching us" in "From a Distance."

I can't quite put my finger on what it is that bothers me about these songs. I sing them when requested, but not on my initiative.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:00 AM

I am about as likely to sing this song as I would be to sing Kumbaya holding hands in a circle round a camp fire. Having said that, is it anti-semitic? Of course it isn't.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:02 AM

"The holy people, they said" *does* mean "the holy people said". It's a common usage in Ireland, and used to be in Britain.

But anyone who grew up with Bible stories knows that the stories about Christ and the Sabbath are to do with the priests and other tightarses of his own time. Sure, they were Jewish. So was Jesus. Nothing to do with the case.

The stories of Jesus and the Sabbath are to do with sanity in religious usage. As far as I remember, when the holy people (the priests) said to him "What the hell do you think you're at curing people on the Sabbath", Jesus turned around to these part-time farmers and full-time other-people's-business-minders and said "Yeah, right, and if your expensive ox falls into a ditch on the Sabbath you'll leave it there, won't you? Right? Right?"

Collapse of stout party.

To imagine that this is an anti-Jewish story is a waaaaaay misreading of the song. Of course it's not! It's the children's Bible stories - and indeed the stories from the Bible generally - about how you should be a bit sane about Sabbath-keeping.

Indeed, this is one of the constant Quaker things - back in the nutty 17th century, they used to have debates with foaming Sabbath-keepers, saying "Jesus didn't keep the Sabbath himself, and said the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath", or words to that effect.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

Further point: there's plenty of anti-Semitic material around without trying to tar a perfectly innocent song with this. In fact, this kind of thing gives anti-anti-Semitism a bad name!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

Joe - they are written as religius songs first and foremost, that is what Syndey was about.

Admittedly, its much easier for people who don't share Sydney's religious committment to sing "John Ball" rather than LotD.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:27 AM

Firstly, this is a song - song lyrics usually have to fit into a tight rhythmic structure as well as conveying meaning in an effective and memorable way. This can result in some loss of subtlety, or in phrasing which may be capabable of different interpretations.

Secondly, it was written as a song affirming Christ and as a metaphor for his life, death and resurrection. The lines about the "scribes and pharisees" seem to me to reflect that Jesus, a Jew, took his teachings to the Jewish people and was rejected, especially by the Jewish establishment of that time. The same goes for the lines about curing the lame on the sabbath and the "holy people said it was a shame" - the (Jewish) religious authorities disapproved of his activities.

I am neither Christian nor Jewish, so can someone please explain why it is anti-semitic to say that? It seems to me to be a very long step from words which tell, in a necessarily simplified form, the story of Christ to the anti-semitic meaning which some are seeking to read into them.

As for the song making me cringe, that's another matter, but I struggle to find anything in it that makes me think it's an attack on the Jews.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:43 AM

There is alway someone who can object to ANYTHING if they want to put their mind to it .

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:52 AM

I realize it may be a folkie Mortal Sin to say this, but I think the lyrics of "Lord of the Dance" are trite - that's why they make me cringe.

As for Jesus condemning "holy people" Scribes and Pharisees, I think it's clear from the text of the New Testament that he was not condemning them for being Jewish - he was condemning hypocrites and their self-righteous condemnations of other people. Jesus spoke out against injustice, not against religious faith. Religious faith should be a good thing - but too often, it is dominated by severe, self-righteous, hypocritical people whose goal in life seems to be to find fault in other people. In their self-righteousness, many Christians fail to see they deserve the same condemnation Jesus directed at the Scribes and Pharisees.

But many people of faith don't deserve that condemnation, and I don't think Jesus twas talking about them.

Nonetheless, I think the Syndey Carter lyrics are trite and unimaginative. By the way, how many songs did he write to the tune of "Simple Gifts"?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:00 AM

You can be against the actions that were done by a group of people 2000 years ago without being against their descendants today. First of all Jesus was a Jew so how can any Christian who is not an idiot (no shortage of those) hate all Jews without hating Jesus as well.
If He came to Earth with a mandate to save the Jews He failed. If we follow the Christian belief that he was infallable this becomes an oxymoron. His message fell on many deaf ears but his early followers were all Jews as well. Belief in Him as the "Only Son Of God" by people who all start their main prayer with "Our Father" also rings strange?
What was important to me about Christ was his teachings of peace and love of all others. I have little use for the dogma of any religion so I could be branded anti-_____ (fill in the blank)

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

I agree somewhat, Joe, but I would use the word cliched (sorry can't do the fancy 'e') rather than trite. When they were written they were probably OK but for modern usage they have become rather jaded. The same is true of a lot of songs, and other works too, I guess. Funny how it happens to some songs and not others though. Maybe keeping songs clear of current stylistic fads is the trick?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

He said that he saw Christ as "the incarnation of the piper who is calling us. He dances that shape and pattern which is at the heart of our reality. By Christ, I mean not only Jesus; in other times and places, other planets, there may be other lords of the dance. But Jesus is the one I know of first and best. I sing of the dancing pattern in the life and words of Jesus."

Amen. To be read in conjunction with "Every star shall sing a carol" (the first song I can ever remember making me cry with... I don't know what, but not sadness).

(Our God, Heaven cannot hold him, nor Earth sustain...)

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:26 AM

"especially by the Jewish establishment of that time"

It wasn't that the establishment was Jewish, it was that it was the establishment!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Gulliver
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:31 AM

There is a theory that the Judean Peoples Front were behind the killing of what's-his-name. I suspect that this song may have been written to cover up the truth of what really happened.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:49 AM

"I have little use for the dogma of any religion so I could be branded anti-_____ (fill in the blank)"

Antique?
Antipodean?
Antipasto?
Antibiotic?
Antinomian (got there in the end!)

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

I thought it was the Peoples Front of Judea!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:53 AM

While we are still hugging ourselves, now the litmus test of the Mudcat's nature. If someone finds as ill-conceived an objection to the words of a song on spurious grounds of racism rather than antisemitism, do we all rise to defend against that objection in the same way?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:57 AM

Nothing to do with it but my mate Gerald Claridge played on Lord in the Dances - he was out numbered by many more famous musicians who also played on that album