Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

Gerry, unless you can come up with a verifiable historical document that proves no Jews were involved in the events leading to the crucifixion, your argument is no more compelling than that of the Gospels.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:27 PM

Paul Burke,

I also agree. That's what I have always taken those words to mean.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:25 PM

Paul Burke--BINGO!

"To his generation, the "holy people" included the Anglicans who had failed to stand up to fascism, condoned mass unemployment, and blessed the cold war, and he was clearly making a direct comparison between suchlike and the hypocritical Pharisees of the Bible."

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:05 PM

Gerry, Lord of the Dance is NOT antisemetic and I believe that your comments say more about you than they do about Sydney Carter's lovely song.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM

I think Carter knew what he meant when he said "holy people"- note not "chosen race" or anything like that. He would have used the same phrase to describe the vile bigots who describe themselves as "Anglican traditionalists", and who reserve their venom for good women who are priests and loving couples of the same sex, while being studiously silent about torture of homosexuals in Africa.

To his generation, the "holy people" included the Anglicans who had failed to stand up to fascism, condoned mass unemployment, and blessed the cold war, and he was clearly making a direct comparison between suchlike and the hypocritical Pharisees of the Bible.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jerry Epstein
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

Well, I can provide some history here.

Lord of the Dance ALWAYS ends the first act in the many annual performances of the Christmas Revels around the country, going back to its founding by John Langstaff, with a show in 1957 in New York, and revived by his daughter Carol in 1970 in Cambridge. THere are now companies in something like 14 or 15 cities. The last chorus is repeated over and over, with the brass quintet, and the audience knows from experience to get out of their seats, take hands in long lines, and be led, largely by morris dancers, dancing all around the hall. It is a really treasured tradition for long time Revels goers.

But that being said, there has been a lot of discussion of this issue, and a significant part of the Revels audience (certainly in NEw York but also elsewhere) is Jewish. Regardless of Sydney Carter's intent, which I profess not the slightest knowledge of, some audience and potential audience DO take real offense at this song. John (Jack) Langstaff was really quite upset at understanding that the one verse in particular could easily be taken in a quite offensive way, especially given the history of the last 2000 years.

As others have noted, the most difficult verse is
"I danced on the Sabbath and I cured the lame,
The holy people said it was a shame.
They whipped and they stripped, and they hung me on high,
And they left me there on a cross to die."

I always knew (I am Jewish, though not particularly religious in any formal sense) that the obvious reading of this verse is that the Jews killed Christ. I too also chose to interpret this as the priests, but not the people, but that does not end the difficulty.
About 15 years ago, I proposed an alternate wording to Jack:

I danced for the people and I cured the lame,
The high and mighty said it was a shame.
They whipped, etc. . . . . . .

This has to the best of my knowledge become the standard text in the Revels performances. It makes it into a class distinction, instead of a sectarian distinction. I have no idea what Carter would have thought of it, I wish I could know. It is a lot more comfortable for me, and for quite a few others that I know.

If any of you have never seen the song done in a Revels, try to get to one if for no other reason than to see the Morris dance that was written to go with the song, written by Carol Langstaff, with help from Shag Graetz and I think Jonathan Morse. It is a remarkable thing, and I think a very effective visual for the song.

Jerry Epstein,
once upon a time Music Director of Revels-New York.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:25 AM

Note on Nazi antisemitism: it was based only very indirectly on traditional Christian antisemitism.

Actually, the "master-race" Nazis claimed that Jews were inferior biologically. That was partly on the basis that after two thousand years had not staked out their own militarized, independent nation based on conquest - as the Teutonic "races" had done. That supposedly showed they were parasitical, unfit to live, blah blah blah blah. To Hitler and other Nazi ideologues they were "microbes," "vermin," "a cancer in the blood," etc. A bastardized pseudo-Darwinism was enlisted in support of these weird and diabolical fantasies.

Besides being antisemitic, Nazi ideologues like Alfred Rosenberg were also antichristian. They regarded Christianity as a weakling's religion based on "Jewish superstition." A postwar goal was the replacement of German Christianity by some kind of symbolic, romanticized paganism with an element of Nordic gene-worship added.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Grab
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:02 AM

Bonnie, problem is that the Romans were only the ones doing the dirty work for the local establishment. The reason the Romans did so well in establishing an empire is because, like the British empire after it, they devolved power to the local rulers (or at least to the local rulers who'd give tribute to the empire). In day-to-day matters, the Romans didn't care - in fact the Roman empire was famously tolerant of different religions, and one rogue preacher wasn't ever likely to cause them any problems. But it was a big deal for the local politicians, because they could see their support vanishing. Like Protestantism moving against Catholicism 1500 years later, a grass-roots movement threatened the stability of the overbearing established political organisation.

So Jesus was only hauled up before Pilate on the say-so of the local political elite, who happened to also be the local religious elite. Pilate's hand-washing was in rejection of official Roman involvement in the decision. If we're quoting Bibles, remember that Pilate gave the crowd the option of releasing Jesus, but the Pharisees' agents in the crowd called out for Jesus to be executed.

But none of this makes the Bible, or the song, anti-Semitic. Jesus wasn't anti-Jewish, he was anti-Establishment. Gerry's argument is the same specious argument used by supporters of Israel when they say that by criticising Israeli actions in Gaza, their critics are anti-Semitic. When there's an official state religion, it's essential to differentiate between actions which are based on religious doctrine and actions which are matters of state politics, even though the same people may be making those decisions. Failure to make this distinction is at best naive.

Assuming that the Bible is an accurate representation of events, it's blindingly obvious that a few Jewish people 2000 years ago were responsible for the death of Jesus. It's also blindingly obvious that the Jewish religion had nothing to do with this fact, since Jesus's aim as a fellow-Jew was to move Judaism from empty sophistry back to an appreciation of the basic principles behind the religion. And it's equally clear that none of this has any relevance to Judaism past, present or future, nor to any Jews who weren't directly involved in the event.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

Christianity is not antisemitic, but some portions of the Gospel story are. Perhaps some day Christians will decide that those parts are not essential to its central message, and will reject them, and stop singing about them.

Gerry, you haven't demonstrated - to anyone's satisfaction but your own - that anyone is singing antisemitic material. This is Lord of the Dance, not Send the Buggers Back. I've known this song for 40 years (I learned it in primary school) and it's never so much as crossed my mind that it's saying 'the holy people' crucified Jesus, let alone that 'the holy people' is special sekrit code for 'Jews'.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:46 AM

Gerry - Examples you cite come from the Old Testament, which springs from different sources and does not have to do with Jesus' life. No, I don't believe every statement from the Bible is literally true (did you actually read what I wrote?) and never said I did.

But though I'm not a church-goer I was raised as a Christian and have no reason to dispute that Pilate asked the crowd whether he should pardon or execute Jesus, and that their answer was to execute. That's all I said. Please don't take my words and extrapolate them.

I'm out of this thread now -

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

Bonnie, Scripture states quite clearly that the universe was created in seven days, that woman was created from a man's rib, that everyone spoke the same language until the unfortunate incident at Babel - do you accept that those things happened, too?

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was composed with the sole aim of discrediting the Jewish people. The Gospels were written with the main aim of spreading the good news about God redeeming mankind through his only son. I would suggest that while that was their main aim, it was not their only aim. You are willing to apply your knowledge of human nature to the Jewish authorities of the day. Are you also willing to apply your knowledge of human nature to the authors of the Gospels, who were, after all, human?

If so, then consider this: the occupying Romans are making life miserable for the Jews. They are also making life miserable for the Christians, whom they view as just some other kind of Jew. You're writing up the life story of Jesus. If you pin the blame for his persecution and death squarely on the Romans, you are asking for trouble. If you blame it on the Jews, maybe you can put a little distance between yourself and them, and get the Romans off your backs. Who exactly it was that wanted Jesus dead won't make any difference to your message that Jesus died for our sins So, knowing what you know of human nature, is it plausible that there was a secondary, political aim to the Gospels? Does it strain credibility?

Howard, Christianity changes with time. There was a time when Christianity (or, at least, Roman Catholicism) was anti-heliocentric. To affirm the Earth's revolution around the Sun was heresy, and one could find oneself seriously dead for one's efforts. Eventually, Christianity decided that its anti-heliocentric parts were not essential to its central message. It rejected them, and we are all the better for that.

Christianity is not antisemitic, but some portions of the Gospel story are. Perhaps some day Christians will decide that those parts are not essential to its central message, and will reject them, and stop singing about them. We will all be the better for that.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:03 AM

I'm feeling some need to explain my own usage of the term "lie" in an earlier post, though no one has challenged me to do so. But, just to clarify things:   

I do not for one moment believe the Gospels have lied in their recounting of the events that took place. Scripture states quite clearly what happened, and I accept that this is what happened. Knowing human nature, it's all too plausible and doesn't strain credibility in the least.

When I made reference to "horrendous lie" above, what I meant was the distortion which has been imposed on the Gospel narrative. The Nazis famously come to mind, but plenty of others throughout history have used Bible writ to rationalise their dirty work. They're the same types ("holy people"?) who quoted Thou Shalt Not Suffer A Witch To Live while hoisting Rebecca Nurse and Mary Easty high on a gallows in Salem and setting alight Alison Balfour in Edinburgh and Johan Reichardt (all of nine years old) in Würzburg. It is this warping and twisting of sacred text to serve one's own ends that becomes The Lie.

So once again we are left to interpret words as they have been set down; and - although I do not deny the role played in Jesus' death by those standing before Pilate that day - my own gut reaction is that the final blame lies with the Romans. They were the ones with the ultimate, unstoppable power. Jesus was a thorn in their side and it suited them to get him out of the way. No one could make these rulers do anything they didn't want to, or prevent them from doing anything they did. Crowds call for things all the time - but (unless they morph into a mob and take violent action) raised voices are not where the power lies. Action is. With dominance and control come responsibility.   

To feel this way is not to deny anything that's written in the Bible. No one is disagreeing - whether it's scripture or the song words - about what has been written. It's a matter of where your judgment falls, and that's always going to vary with each individual.

Certainly I do not believe the Gospels to "be" a lie in the sense that the so-called Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a lie.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: oggie
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:02 AM

"As a final thought, I suspect that there are some Christians who take offence at the dance imagery in LOTD."

Yes, a large number in fact. Although other churches can find scriptural support for the use of dance within worship. 'Tis a tangled world out there :)

Steve

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:15 AM

The origins of Christian antisemitism are much older than the institution of Jewish moneylenders. It may well have been inherited from Hellenistic pagan converts- there was much friction between Hellenes and Jews in pre- and early- Christian times (see Josephus' history of the Jewish Wars).

As for Carter, I doubt if he had an antisemitic bone in his body, and despite the mention of the crucifixion, he was one of that generation of Anglicans who thought the implementation of Jesus' teachings on social justice as more important than "conjuring tricks with bones".

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 05:07 AM

Is misopates orontium antirrhinum ?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:37 AM

Gerry, actually I'm not Christian, but I was brought up in that tradition. I'm not sure quite why I've got myself so involved in this discussion - I think I was a bit offended by the implication that we should censor, or self-censor, a song because of what I still see, with respect, as a largely imagined offence. Maybe I've just enjoyed the debate.

I had understood your earlier argument to be that "the holy people" is how Jews refer to themselves, therefore "the holy people" in LOTD was a reference to the whole Jewish people past and present, and was implicitly accusing all of them of responsibility for the crucifixion. You now seem to be agreeing that it refers to just a few Jews at that time, the priests and religious authorities, but deny that they had any involvement. Your problem seems to be, not that LOTD misrepresents the gospel story, but with that story itself.

I agree, it is probably not really important to the Christian story who was responsible, the essential element is the crucifixion, and what happened afterwards. And I don't know to what extent, if at all, the Gospels represent historical truth, or even if these events actually happened. The point is, to Christians this is how the story unfolded, with the Jewish authorities bringing Jesus before the Romans and encouraging them to punish him. LOTD is a Christian song and is based around this story.

If you feel that simply repeating this story is anti-semitic, then you are saying that Christianity itself is anti-semitic. Whilst it is unarguable that both the Church and individual Christians have been horrifically anti-semitic at times, you are in danger of making the same sweeping generalisation about Christianity that you object to when its made about Jews.

I think the origins of Christian anti-semitism are actually more complicated, and were more to do with economic reasons (the Jews were the financiers of Europe at a time when Christians considered usury a sin, and their perceived economic power has always made them convenient scapegoats), and the theological arguments were used as an excuse. None of which excuses or forgives the treatment Jews have suffered over centuries as a result.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:10 AM

'I'll speculate that Christianity could still get along quite well if it were confronted with documented evidence that the crucifixion was a Roman affair from go to whoa, '

yeh blame it on the wops, I'll never eat spaghetti on toast again....

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:07 AM

From an outsider's perspective (I'm neither Christian nor Jewish), it's obvious to me that there are elements in both religions that are offensive to people who are not of those religions.

The idea, for instance, that Jews call themselves THE Holy People, simply by virtue of their being Jewish (and exclusively so, from what I can gather) is pretty offensive on the face of it. There are aspects of the Christian religion that I have found offensive as well. I wonder if the Jews who are saying they want Christians to change one of the most fundamental aspects of their religion would be willing to change their understanding of themselves as The Holy People if people who were not Jewish said they found it offensive.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:56 AM

Gerry,

That part of the Bible is, for most, the whole point of being Christian. I take it you have some knowledge of Easter as a religious holiday?

Lord of the Dance is one thing, but asking people to change their belief in the Gospels because you have imagined some universal offense to current Jews is beyond the pale.   

You have no way of knowing it was a lie. It would be charitable to say that you are talking nonsense. Your problem is obviously not with LOTD but with all of Christianity. Perhaps you are simply trying to be offensive yourself.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:03 PM

Howard, the Bible says that the universe was created in seven days. It says woman was created from a man's rib. It says homosexuals should be put to death, for they are an abomination unto the Lord. It says a lot of things that most of us - those of us who are not fundamentalists - reject. It is possible to reject these things and not reject the good things in Judaism, in Christianity, in Islam. The central beliefs of the great faiths are not shaken by the discovery that the Sun doesn't actually go around the Earth.

The belief that Jesus was the son of God, the belief in the Immaculate Conception, the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, the belief that Jesus rose on the 3rd day - these beliefs are un-Jewish, but not anti-Jewish. I don't accept those beliefs, but I don't find them offensive, and I have no wish to censor them, or the hymns based on them. The belief that some or all of the Jews of the day were responsible for the death of Jesus is a different matter. It's not for me to tell you what is and what isn't central to your faith, but I'll speculate that Christianity could still get along quite well if it were confronted with documented evidence that the crucifixion was a Roman affair from go to whoa, one in which no Jews (except Jesus, of course) played any significant role. And if the only documentation for your view of things is the Bible, the same Bible that insists that people used to live for 900 years, and that the origin of different languages is explained by God's anger at the Tower of Babel, then I think you have to explain why you accept the literal truth of one part of the document, when (presumably) you're content to go for other interpretations of other parts of it.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Arkie
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:28 PM

Anti-semitism is based on an irrational hatred and is unlikely to change due to a reasonable argument. However it can change as the person with the hatred changes.

The deny that Jesus was killed to satisfy a segment of Jews is the equivalent of sticking one's head in the sand. First century Jews killed people they believed to be offensive. Stoning was the usual method. Since the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus to suffer a more severe and painful execution they enlisted the aid of the Roman government. Does that mean that every person of Jewish ancestry forever more should be held responsible. NO!!! Christians have also killed people they considered to be dangerous and included Bible translators among the offenders. Does that mean all Christians forevermore are to be held responsible? No. But Christians should be vigilant and not permit that to happen again.

And I repeat, "holy people" was used purposefully by Sydney Carter to describe the irony of so-called holy people acting in a most unholy way. The phrase was meant to offend those who live under the pretense they are something they are not. It is not meant as anti-semetic. I did not know Sydney Carter personally, but do find him an intriguing person and wonderful writer so I have read a bit about him. His system of belief and un-belief was such that he had the utmost respect for Judaism and those who practice that faith. One of his closest friends was a Rabbi.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:28 PM

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:03 PM

Jesus told us to form a circle and hold each other's hands, and he himself stood in the middle, and said "Respond to me with 'Amen.'"
...
"I will play the flute. Dance, everyone."
"Amen."
"I will mourn. Lament, everyone."
"Amen."
"A realm of eight sings with us."
"Amen."
"The twelfth number dances on high."
"Amen."
"The whole universe takes part in dancing."
"Amen."
"Whoever does not dance does not know what happens."
"Amen."

--from the Round Dance of the Cross

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Gulliver
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

Agreed!

As long as it's not on the Sabbath, because (Exodus 35:2):

"For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death."

Just don't make too much of a mess...

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM

This is the longest thread on the shortest idea I've seen since my last visit to a guitar newsgroup. So, in honor of what it reminds me of, I'll just say, as they say on rmmg,

"ENOUGH! NOW WE DANCE!"

[Sheesh!]

Bob

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Timo_Tuokkola
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:55 PM

"The origins of antisemitism lie in the lie that the Jews killed Jesus. "

Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with your own Jewish history. I was under the impression that repeated attempts to eradicate the Jewish people have been made throughout history. I believe that the Assyrians and the Babylonians both made several spirited attempts, well before the time of Jesus.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:34 PM

Gerry, if the heart of your problem with the song is over the "lie" that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus, then you have a problem not just with LOTD but with the Christian story, which does indeed have the Jews responsible for bringing Jesus before the Romans, and pressurising Pilate into having him executed. In this tradition, which the song follows, it is not a lie.

If you're Jewish, that may be a reasonable position to take. But it is no reason for others to censor, or self-censor the song, any more than they should alter those hymns which refer to Jesus as the Messiah, or indeed should alter the New Testament. This is one of those things on which different religions must agree to disagree. The traditions and practices of any religion are potentially offensive, if not blasphemous, to those of a different religion.

As a final thought, I suspect that there are some Christians who take offence at the dance imagery in LOTD.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:42 PM

The name Osama bin Laden came up. Bin Laden by all accounts is a True Believer who can only understand things literally and take them at face value. This he may have inherited from the Hanbali rite and Wahhabi sect he grew up in (whether you would call these things true Islam or not).

When true believers' belief systems fail to align perfectly, they class heavily. This is not a question of religion as such; the class could easily involve a couple of Marxists or biology professors.

I think Sydney Carter was not a True Believer in such a sense--when it's said of him, "Partly inspired by Jesus, and partly by a statue of Shiva as Nataraja, Sydney wrote the lyrics 'Lord Of The Dance...,'" you can see that he sensed how the truth could appear through different formal guises.

I think symbolically aware people have always had a very difficult time expressing themselves in ways that don't set traps for True Believers, because language naturally tends to come down on one side or the other of ambiguity and paradox. The best poetry and lyrics come close to this kind of expression.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

Gerry, on a tangent, when you say that "The origins of antisemitism lie in the lie that the Jews killed Jesus," are you open to the idea that these are not simply the origins, but the expression of a kind of symptom?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 02:24 PM

>>Jack, I agree that the people who sing LotD are not trying to express antisemitism, and I am utterly convinced that they don't see the song as anti-semitic. I'm trying to convince people that it is.<<

Gerry,

I am embarrassed that I seemed to have utterly failed to make my larger point. I shall try one more time.

There is nothing expressed in that song that is not more clearly and overtly expressed in the Gospels. The Gospels make it very clear that SOME Jews were very much responsible for the death of Jesus. Who actually did the stripping and the nailing is not in dispute because the Gospels are clear about that as well. Again it is clear from the Gospels that Jews killed Jesus. Just Bin Laden killed nearly 3,000 Americans and Dick Cheney and Doug Feith killed Iraqis.

It is also clear to me and to the vast majority of Christians who read that text understand All Jews are not responsible any more than they believe that all Arabs or all Muslims or all people with beards or all of any other group that Bin Laden may happen to belong to, are not responsible for 9/11.

The Gospels are the Gospels. They are Christianity's ultimate source documents for this information and Christian belief on this subject. You may not believe that they are historically accurate. But you do not look at them through the lens of faith. You seem to be implying that Luke was lying. You will get no where with that argument. You seem to be saying that because Carter repeated the lies of Luke then the song offends you. If you are saying that then you are denigrating what is arguably the holiest part of the Christian Bible. The sacrifice of Jesus is the very basis of most Christian's faith. Christian understanding of that sacrifice is rooted in the Gospels. Calling any part of the Gospels "a lie" is playing with dynamite.

On the other hand, I will grant you that some people who call themselves Christians believe that all Jews past and present are responsible for Jesus' death. But there is no way that they got that idea from reading the Gospels or singing Lord of the Dance. The source of that vile prejudice most certainly lies elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

Volgadon,

I respect you opinion and your point of view, but I certainly do not share it.   

I have to say the the further information that you provide leaves me even less convinced. You say you use this term in english because some nasty Jew hater used it in German? Was it even the same word or is the current term "anti-Semite" simply a TRANSLATION of the misuse of a term?

I am not at all comfortable taking cues on the use of my own language from some racist german speaker of the distant past.

As for it being a "technical" term, Dave has made one good point, I shall try to make another. Technical language generally strives for clarity. This word diminishes clarity. If it is a technical term it is a poor one. I submit that it is a term of propaganda in the same way the "Pro-Life" is among antiabortionists. From what you have told us, using Herr Marr's word is perpetuating the propaganda.

May I also point out that any inclined to be anti-Jew is just as likely to be against all of the other Semites, and probably against any other religion that is not their own as well. Prejudice is seldom that selective.

I mentioned trade mark, because it is the only way I know for a person to cement the meaning of a made up definition in a legally binding and enforceable manner.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:25 PM

I would certainly agree that antisemite is something different to semite:-) Just in the way histamine and antihistamine are different.

Exactly what is wrong with saying anti-Jewish when you mean anti-Jewish anyway? Surely it is the best option all round? I would guess that Herr Marr coined the phrase to disguise the fact that he and his organisation were anti-Jewish. Why should we say anti-Jewish feeling is anything else?

I also dispute the that it is a 'technical term'. Why is it technical? Did a scientist discover an anti-Semitic hormone? Is it engineered in some sort of factory? Sorry, but the only technical term for a fear or hatred of Jews, as far as I know, is the medical condition known as Judeophobia!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

Chickery Chick Chala Chala
Checkala romeo
In a bananica....

Secretly written by St Dominick... ...deftly encoded anti-Albigensianism! Shameful.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM

I won't use the term Semite, but antisemite is something different. It is the technical term for hatred for and opposition to people and things Jewish.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:41 PM

I hope that one day you (plural) will find that the song offends you, too

And I'd hope that one day you will find that the song does not offend you.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:11 PM

OK - So even though you believe that Semite is incorrect in any conetxt other that a linguistic group you will continue to use it as meaning Jewish? I can't argue against that apart from to say it seems a bit odd to me but, hey, If we were all the same wouldn't life be boring!

Cheers

Dave (IrwellKuban :D )

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:06 PM

Because the term antisemite means something now. Because most of the antisemitic literature and literature dealing with the phenomenon uses that term. Two good reasons.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:00 PM

Volgadon, I don't think anyone is disputing that Wilhelm Marr or any other 19th century Austrian scholar coined the phrase to mean anti-Jewish. But you have said yourself that the word semitic is incorrect when used in anything but terms of a linguistic group. I ask, once again, if that is the case why keep using it and insisting it is the correct term?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:14 AM

">>It hasn't been changed, it was coined to mean anti-Jewish and that was how it was used. His name eludes me right now, but an Austrian Jewish scholar used it in the 1860s to criticise some virulently anti-Jewish scholar and 20 years later, Wilhelm Marr widely used the term to reffer(sic) solely to Jews.<<

That seems to me to be a very specious and dark argument. Its like fundamentalists saying that the only meaning of "Anti-Christian" was to be against them. Or for Mexicans to say that "anti-immigrant" means anti-Mexican. Or for "pro-life" to refer only to people who are anti-abortion.

Wilhelm Marr using common english words to his own purpose does not make his usage correct. He did not trade mark the word, so "anti-Semitic" meaning against Semites, as Semites are defined is obviously the correct usage.

"Anti-Jew", is a much more precise and honest term. It is what most people mean when they say "anti-Semitic". Certainly it is what anyone who shares Mr. Marr's definition means. I don't know why they do not just use the former. I know its an old tradition to use the broader term for the specific group, and apparently we have Mr. Marr to thank for that, but I feel that there is a certain unintended comedy in hearing an Arab called an anti-Semite. Its as if a Mexican immigrant called me anti-immigrant, when I am also an immigrant."

Wilhelm Marr was a very militant GERMAN nationalist and antisemite. There is a certain unintended comedy in seeing someone point out a spelling error of mine whilst saying that Marr used English words.
Did not trademark it??? That's seem very specious.
For most Germans and Frenchmen who weren't linguists, the group most associated with Semites were Jews. Wilhem Marr formed the ANTISEMITIC League, to combat Jewish influence on Germany. Read some of his works. Arabs are neither here nor there. Antisemitism has to do with Jews. Period.

"2. "holy people" is a reference to, if not the entire Jewish people of the time, then to a segment thereof - maybe the Pharisees, maybe the Sanhedrin, maybe the priests, maybe some other Jewish authorities, but, in any event, definitely not to the Romans,
3. it is a lie, and, historically, a horrendous lie, to say that the Jews, or the Pharisees, or the Sanhedrin, or the priests, or any Jewish authorities, legal or religious, hung Jesus on a cross."

Jeremiah, Isaiah and Malachi must've been rampant antisemites.
Anyway, nobody said that the Jews, Pharisees, Sanhedrin, etc., hung Christ on the cross, just like nobody has claimed that Al Capone pulled the trigger himself on St V's Day.


Pilate had the authority to overrule the Jews, but they made a very potent threat. John 19:12. "If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar." There was plenty with which they could blackmail Pilate. He didn't have the cleanest record.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:23 AM

Jim, I have not advocated, or even mentioned, censorship. I've explained why LotD offends me. I don't expect anyone to ban a song just because that song offends me. I hope that one day you (plural) will find that the song offends you, too, and when that day comes there will be no need to censor it, since no one will want to be associated with it.

Howard, you ask, what good is taking offense when none is intended. If, in a private conversation, you were to say something offensive to me, and if I was convinced that this was not your intention, I would not take offense. Publishing a song, singing it on stage, putting it on a CD - that's different. At that point, it stands on its own, and the author's intentions are besides the point.

I understand that most of the contributors to this thread disagree with my contention that the holy people refers to some or all of the Jews of Jesus' time (although why anyone among Jesus' contemporaries other than some of Jesus' fellow Jews would object to Jesus dancing on the sabbath is beyond me). I understand that most of the contributors to this thread can read "The holy people said it was a shame. They crucified him." and not conclude that the "they" in the second sentence refers to the holy people in the first, although this also mystifies me. You (plural) think I'm misunderstanding the words, and I think you are. I think that's about as far as we're going to get with that. So let me skip to your last couple of questions.

Taken to its logical conclusion, the "there are more important issues" argument leads us each to decide what is the single most important issue in the world, and then to devote all our attention to that - after all, if we spare even a thought for the second most important issue in the world, our conscience will remind us that there is a more important issue that we are neglecting. What we all actually do is apportion our time and efforts among a number of issues, some of great importance, some of lesser importance, maybe some of no importance at all. We all reject the "there are more important issues" argument in practice. It's a red herring.

The issue of antisemitism is of great importance to me. The origins of antisemitism lie in the lie that the Jews killed Jesus. The song perpetuates that lie - so I feel, although I know I've not been convincing. That's why I take offense, even though there are more important issues.

Jack, I agree that the people who sing LotD are not trying to express antisemitism, and I am utterly convinced that they don't see the song as anti-semitic. I'm trying to convince people that it is.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:02 AM

Gerry,
Are we to assume by your continued argument that you are in favour of censorship - if so - where do you draw the line, women, old men pat their prime..... or do you reserve it just for real or imagined slights against Jewish people?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:50 AM

There a many things in this world at which someone might take offence, if they are so minded (and many are). The real issue is whether or not it's right or useful to take offence. I can understand that, in view of their history, many Jews will be determined to root out anti-semitism wherever they find it, but with respect I feel that can go too far where the offence is unintentional or even imagined.

My question is, what good is served by taking offence where none is intended? This can sometimes increase divisions rather than break them down. It can reinforce stereotypes of perpetual victimhood which are neither attractive nor helpful.

I have in mind the recent furore over a police poster featuring a puppy, which was withdrawn because a Muslim was offended by it, although it was not directed at Muslims nor did it refer to them. Or the fuss over English mummers and morris-dancers blacking-up, although it was traditionally done for disguise rather than to represent or denigrate black people.

Gerry, I can understand why you may be offended. The reason why you're not having much success pursuading others is that most people seem to share my view that it's based on a double misunderstanding of the words (firstly, the meaning of "holy people" and secondly the connection between the two halves of the verse). And if you don't want us to feel guilty, presumably you'd prefer us to amend or omit that verse from the song. But the song as a whole is not anti-semitic - it's certainly not "openly anti-semitic naming Jews" as the OP was asking, and if it's encouraging people to blame the Jews for Christ's death it's doing it in such an obscure way that most people, Jews among them, are not aware until it's pointed out, and even then find it difficult to agree.

So I ask again, what is the point of taking offence? Even if Sydney Carter has succeeded in smuggling an anti-semitic message into the song (which I don't believe), he's done it in such a way that most people singing or listening to it are unaware of that message. Even if I were to agree with your interpretation, is that worth taking offence over? There are more important issues, surely?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:39 AM

You you could start a forum called Conspiracy Theories for Nutters.

Go forth my son, your work here on this planet is only half done...........

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:12 AM

No Gerry,

The Gospels were Carter's SOURCE MATERIAL FOR THE SONG. Many Christians believe that they are the infallible Word of God. For pretty much all Christians, to determine if their intent is anti-Semitic when singing this song that is a far as you have to go. Christians understand the story and who is blamed for what and that they accept that as Truth. If you are offended because you have a different interpretation of Christian writings than pretty much every english speaking Christian then perhaps the fault is in your interpretation.

Surely anti-Semitic behavior is a matter of intent just as surely as the words of this song do not pass any negative message that is not stated more clearly in the Gospels which are the ORIGINAL source material for the METAPHOR expressed in the song. No offense was meant virtually no one of the millions who have sung or will sing the song see or are trying to express anti-Semitism. You have no reasonable cause to take offense.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 02:06 AM

Howard, I don't expect anyone to feel guilty about my being offended. I'm trying to convince people to be as offended as I am, by explaining why I'm offended. I'm not having much success.

To those who cite Saint Luke et al.; Genesis is not a biology text, and the gospels are not history texts. The gospels are the beginning, not the end, of any inquiry into the life and death of Jesus. But perhaps this is a matter best taken up somewhere other than a music discussion forum.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

Ooops, I meant in the context of "the Devil Wore a Crucifix".

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 07:14 PM

Thanks, MacGrath, though I was talking in the context of LotD.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:10 PM

"No doubt if he were writing now he'd have written something about Jews, Muslims" , wrote Dave Mackenzie way up the thread. No need to speculate:

There's a light that is shining
In the heart of a man,
There's a light that was shining
When the world began.
There's a light that is shining
In the Turk and the Jew
And a light that is shining, friend,
In me and you.

from "George Fox".

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:05 PM

In my opinion Arkie is right on both counts, from reading the Gospels there is no implication at any but those described in the narrative were culpable and Pilate, while responsible for the act in that he could have prevented it if he were determined to do so, was obviously not among those screaming for Jesus' blood. Certianly he was only involved in the process at the end and was not instrumental in bringing the charges which lead to the execution.

As far as the law is concerned, as governor for the region, Pilate had close to absolute discretion in the region only tempered by the occasional order from Rome and his desire to keep the peace over his local subjects. It is my opinion that he did not involve himself as an advocate for Jesus because it was politically expedient and also because jesus did not as him to intervene.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:00 PM

it is the story of Jesus from heaven to earth and back to heaven as it says in the bible, so what you're saying is that the new testement is anti-semitic because it tells the story of our Lord and God Jesus, and if you lot have aproblem with then GOD help you, because I see as just a song about Jesus's life, and how can he be anti-semitic after all he was a Jew.

but that's my opinon, as for those who have a problem with this song, as i have said before TOUGH GET A LIFE. After all it is just a song, the church that I go to a member of the church got up and there were 'Christians' there said that the song was wrong for a church becuse it it was full of dancing, look at the new testement.