BS: If you had to vote today...

Subject: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:22 PM

If you had to vote today without the possible October surprises or shake ups that may occur before November,

Whom would you elect?... (for non librarians)...'who would you vote for?'

Since I have THC, Terminal Hyochondriacle Cynacism,
I would vote for McCain Palin today*


How about YOU? :o{}







*the reason being is that the USA will be descending to rock bottom two years from now and it is only fitting that the Bush legacy burden another Republican administration and not set up Democrates with the epidemic of poverty, crime hoplessness and unemployment.
If that should include the release of nuclear weapons in pre emptive anger or worse?! so be it.
I'm sorry Pete Seeger, Barack Obama and families with children, but the disease has spread too far.
Let the full wieght of failure fall on the republican disaster machine including those who are wealthy beyond measure yet stole the few remaining crumbs their country had to offer.


Also, Premiere (formerely diebold) and Sequoia Voting machines are primed to do their best/worst as demonstrated by their use in DC primaries. They counted more votes than cast. The Company said the error (they were hoping no one look for let alone find) was caused by static electricity. Lets hope no one wears leather shoes to vote in November. Sequoia Systems added that a less likely cause wouldbe human error.

As the Ceasar, I Claudius said as he lay dieing of poison from an ambitious woman in the Roman Empire, "LET ALL THE EVIL IN THE MUD HATCH OUT"

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:39 PM

The fact is, Don, that doom has been expected for generations. I remember when my brother said he didn't want kids because it wasn't fair to bring children into this dangerous, doomed world. That was 1958. His daughter is now 46 years old.

I agree with you that the future looks bleak. But it always has.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:43 PM

And NONE of YOUR business. Nobody's but MINE.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:51 PM

I will likely vote for the Green Party in Canada. Our election comes before yours. Then I'll vote Obama in your election.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM

Do it often, Peace. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM

I would vote for Obama in the hope tah beginning change now will start a chain reaction of positive, if small, and multiplying developments that will help make my daughter's world less insane than the present one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Speaking of insane, we often hear of someone going over the edge, or falling off the thin edge of sanity and insanity.

When one plainly considers how insane the world is with its religions, violence, weapons, defined hatreds and the rhetoric that passes for the truth...

Falling off the edge must clearly be into sanity from insanity.

Insanity of the nearly civil polite kind, seems to be the norm.

Mr. Carlin would you please come back and wiegh in on this point?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:12 PM

I'd be glad the election was finally over!!! It's been a long season.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM

Obama is coming here! Only about a mile from my house and I cannot wait. Free tickets can be had tomorrow, so I will be going to the office early to get mine, then Monday is the day.

I am looking for an End to Cynicism.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 07:02 PM

*sigh* Sorry, Donuel, but it is MY prediction that if we get even 4 more years of this crap, the Republican machine will be even MORE able to hide, lie, dissemble, alter laws (and maybe the Constitution) to allow them to start nailing in the final planks in a permanent lock on power.

It happened in Russia, it happened in Mexico, it happened in Thailand...etc.

I want PROOF that it can be better....I can't wait for 'them' to stumble, because they'll just claim it was MY fault.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

He's coming to Wyoming too, kat...but I am not going. NO desire to. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM

Chongo Chimp, of course. Whaddya think? I want REAL change, not just cosmetic change.

That goes for the Canadian election too. I'm trying to persuade Chongo to run here as well. He says it would be a "conflict of interest". I don't agree and I hope to persuade him otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

No need to apologise to me Sorcha. For my part, I cannot imagine missing a chance to meet him and hear him speak.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:13 PM

That's an interesting slant Don, but 8 years of Bush is quite enough. O'Bama gets my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM

Obama/Biden. Christine Gregoire for state governor (Dino Rossi sounds just like Bush).

As one buffalo said to the other, "Let the chips fall where they may!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM

(To the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas")

Now they've got a candidate to take "dear leader's" place;
Not much change in policies, just an older face.
He claims that he's for change, but somehow it seems to me,
"From bad to worse" is not the kind of change we need to see.


'Zat answer the question?

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: JennieG
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:51 PM

I've already voted today, it's local government election day here in sunny Sydney.

Oh....you mean in the OTHER election??!!!

And here I was thinking the world revolved around Sefton where I live.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 09:55 PM

Myself and Bobert as VP.

Remember: I promise to resign as soon as I'm eligible for the retirement benefits and will do my best not to screw things up too badly before that.

Vote Rapaire! He's Only In It For The       Money!!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 10:36 PM

Unlike Chongo, who is in it for the money, the broads, the booze, and the glory!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:19 PM

ratzes, JennieG, you beat me to it! (ps. the world really revolves around my local area, City of Sydney!)

& I also bought something useful from the fete that the church puts on every election when the church hall is used as a voting place! Tho the queue at the church was sooo long I left & wandered down the side-street to the school & voted there cos they never have a queue, & checked out the fete on my way back home.

We also have a referendum in our council area & it will be interesting to see that result.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 11:20 PM

I would vote to abolish BOTH PARTIES, and start all over again...

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 10:24 AM

If I was an American .... I'd vote for Nader ... he is the only one that would end the war immediately (no tap dancing staging the retreat, no more troo[) .... no more troops in Iraq, and no more troops in the Afghani .... divert all the funding for these military excercises back inot the U.S. healtchare, education, etc.

Anyway ... read the following points in the blue linky .... and then go ahead, join in on the media and slam dunk them all ya want ... but if you want change, he's the only one of the candidates that will bring about change.

Also ..... why isn't he allowed to participate in the debates?

nader

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

Number 6, invitations to debate are based primarily on the percentage of votes one drew in the last election, generally 5%. Nader never came close.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM

hanks ebbie for the explanation.

Sad ..... maybe more exposure to Nader's views would make more voters think. Then again the percentage of votes parallels the TV ratings which in itself is equivalent to big $bucks$ ... yes, when you get right down to it, the whole damned carny election is based on econimics / profits not democracy.

Oh well .... let the useless arguments continue .... at the end of the road in November it will come down to the status quo (as usual)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 02:04 PM

Nader is a nut case.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM

"Nader is a nut case." .... ok

next.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:35 PM

This isn't the first election where I've considered neither of the major party candidates even marginally acceptable. But before, I could always vote Libertarian, and did. This time the Libertarian candidate is an arch-conservative, not a Libertarian. He appears to have bought his way onto the ballot.

Kendall is right about Nader. Well, he's guilty of understatement, but he's an old Mainer, so that's expected.

So I may just not vote, at least for a presidential candidate, for the first time since I've been eligible to vote.

Why can't we get an initiative going for a Constitutional amendment to require a "None of the above is acceptable" box on every ballot?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 03:43 PM

Peter, before you decided not to vote, please spend 8+ minutes listening to Craig Ferguson, all the way to the end. He just became an American citizen this last year.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

Well for one thing, Nader's not running....

VOTE RAPAIRE -- THE ONLY HONEST CANDIDATE!!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:14 PM

No.


A

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM

Peter, if you'll change your name to "None of the above" I'll vote for you

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:33 PM

Yeah, I'd vote fir Rap...

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM

Forget Sarah Palin - wasn't he the original 'sexy librarian'? :)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Peace
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

And why would you know about a XXXX-rated movie? Curious minds . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

Murdoch/Bankley got my vote. So what they are not US citizens
at least the music will be good

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM

"And why would you know about a XXXX-rated movie?"

I belong to the local Baptist Church Morality Committee in Plain Truth, Idaho. My spiritual duties there require me to screen all suspect movies that might cause the growth of immorality and degradation our community. I view those suspect films behind closed doors with other members of the committee so that the Church can publish a monthly list of what prurient movies our congregation is to avoid at all costs and especially keep their kids from seeing! I take my duties seriously, and I will always watch a movie all the way through so as to be absolutely sure nothing gets by our censcorship board.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 06:36 PM

I like a man who loves his duty :)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 08:56 PM

"Well for one thing, Nader's not running...."

Oh .... ok

next


BTW for those that are unaware is is still in the race ... His running mate is Matt Gonzalez.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: John O'L
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 11:45 PM

As a matter of fact we in NSW did have to vote yesterday, in local council elections. I can report that in my local council area (The Blue Mountains) the two major parties, Liberal and Labor (supposedly conservative and liberal respectively) have lost their 7/12 control of the council to 5 independents and 2 Greens. A good result.
(Unfortunately Lib retrained 2 seats and Lab 3)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 07:54 AM

Nader is in fact on the ballot in 45 states, more than ever.

Anybody who votes for him has obviously learned nothing from the 2000 election.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:42 AM

Or maybe they have learned something, and they can't bring themselves to vote for McCain, but they can see that Obama would be very bad for the country.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

"Obama would be very bad..."   Evidence, please. NB, that is different from smearing--hope you're capable of shifting gears.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:27 AM

Ron, he is black, you know.

That is what truly appears as THE reason.

:(

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM

I suspect a lot of this depends on what you feel the country's objectives should be, and just as important, how deeply you've looked into those objectives.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 12:41 PM

You won't get off that easily. Exactly why is Obama bad for the US?.   Since we know you're not just trying to do yet another pathetic revolting smear--right?

Please speak to the issues, with specifics.

Otherwise it will be plain that Ebbie has nailed it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 01:44 PM

When you get down to it, your choice depends upon whether or not you wish the government to change what it's been doing over the past eight (or more) years. If you don't, McCain/Palin is your obvious choice. Obama/Biden, might not change anything, but there's a chance that they will, which is more than you can say about the Republican slate.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:22 PM

"You won't get off that easily. Exactly why is Obama bad for the US?."


                   He want's to deal with "politically correct" symptoms of problems, rather than real problems.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM

Be specific. Do you have a problem reading? If you can't be more specific than your other posts on this thread, it will be obvious, as I said, that Ebbie has nailed it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

"He want's to deal with "politically correct" symptoms of problems, rather than real problems."

You have said nothing! You have presented NO evidence of any such inclination or attitude. Everything I hear Obama say leads me to understand that he intends to deal with very specific problems....he has outlined details of many of those proposed solutions.

You are just closing your eyes and and mouthing slogans designed to say "I want Republicans in general, no matter HOW bad the current record is or how many scandals are running or how flimsy McCain's ideas are sounding."
....it's not illegal, I guess, to want the oveall Republican attitude to prevail in power....but it is mean-spirited to accuse Obama of totally ridiculous stances that are disproven over & over to GET your way.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:24 PM

I thought Rig wanted Hillary Clinton to lead the next government...?

Didn't he?

Isn't that right, Rig?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:39 PM

If you have any doubts about the problems with the current administration, get access to today's (Sunday, Sept. 15) edition of the Washington Post and read Barton Gellman's piece about Cheney's part in all the mess.

As several others have said in various ways.... what kind of sense does it make to claim that what we need to fix all these problems is electing the same basic crowd again and expecting them to do better?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

Bill, I see a lot of posts where Rig is criticizing Obama (and/or religion)...I don't see any where he is saying "vote for McCain".

Do you?

Rig, who are you saying you would vote for? Anyone? Nader? Or are you saying that there is no one you would vote for in this election?

I'd be curious to know, because the people here who are objecting so strenuously to your criticims of Obama seem to automatically assume that they must mean you are supporting Palin and McCain.

As if it had to be one or the other... (?) What's that about?

They must feel like Bob Dylan in his born-again phase that "You either got faith or you got unbelief, and there ain't NO neutral ground!"

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:17 PM

Do you mean THIS ARTICLE, BillD? I haven't read all of it, yet, but I am glad it is coming out!!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

yup! Exactly, kat......

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:32 PM

More Songster Bob, less calories.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

Election fraud is the big issue. Diebold, E.S. and S. is owned by two brothers, the Urosevic Brothers and they fixed the last election in Georgia.

Our election process has been privatized. If you vote on an electronic voting machine,
chances are the votes will be flipped. It happened in 2000, 2004 and the fix is in for
2008.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

"Rig, who are you saying you would vote for? Anyone? Nader? Or are you saying that there is no one you would vote for in this election?"


                     LH - Yes, that's right. I did support Hillary, but if the choice has to be between Obama and McCain, I'll probably vote for Nader or McKinney. The problem is, if one says anything to oppose Obama, everyone assumes you support McCain.
                     I do find McCain more attractive with Palin than without her, however.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:43 PM

"Our election process has been privatized. If you vote on an electronic voting machine,
chances are the votes will be flipped. It happened in 2000, 2004 and the fix is in for
2008."

No kidding. Everything is being privatized. That means: sold to the highest bidder. Even your military is being privatized. Soon your Social Security system may be privatized. This is what happens in a system run by financial robber barons who are accountable to no one.

You bet there's election fraud, and there has been for a long time, but it's becoming more and more blatant and obvious as the years go by. Incumbent administrations are usually the ones to benefit most from election fraud, because they are in a far better position to engineer it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM

Rig:

Your assertion is exactly the reverse of the ground truth.

The real problems are the things he insists on talking about--unemployment, an economy on shaky legs, an international repute long since wasted, an ambiguous collision with some terrorists in some places ill-defined and even more illy-prosecuted, the corruption of the government and the loss of the AMerican vision and initiative that once unified the nation.

Seems to me those arew very much the real problems. What problems are you referring to since you refused to be particular in your mode of speech?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM

"The problem is, if one says anything to oppose Obama, everyone assumes you support McCain."

Yes, that's the mental disease produced by the dominant 2-Party system in America which has established what amounts to a monopoly over people's minds and over the media.

That's why they're called the Duopoly by some, and that's why the public ends up getting screwed every couple of years when elections roll around.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM

I like this:

A voter in NH said to Obama:

"So for those of us who have given you our support and more importantly our money, when and how are you going to start fighting back against attack ads and smear campaigns?"

Obama responded by telling the crowd that he does not intend to "start making up lies" about John McCain, borrowing a phrase from Abraham Lincoln - "if you stop lying about me – if you don't stop lying about me I'm going to have to start telling the truth about you."

But, he vowed to hit back at McCain on issues. "Here's what I can guarantee you: that we are going to be hitting back hard – we have been hitting back hard – but we're hitting back on the issues that matter to families."

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

"I do find McCain to be more attractive with Palin..."

And why, pray tell? Not that logic is necessarily any part of your reasoning, of course.




Palin is the one who believes in the "end times".   Of course, being a strong fundamentalist yourself, it's understandable you would applaud this.

Palin is the one who thinks Alaska being right next to Russia gives her foreign policy experience.

Palin is the one who asked the Wasilla librarian--more than once--about how she would feel if certain books were removed from the library. And whether her opinion would change if citizens were picketing the library.

Palin is the one who thinks it's fine to hunt wolves from the air.

Etc.

"The task of filling in the blanks I'd rather leave to you." (Not that you're likely to catch that reference either. But we can at least start your education process.)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:06 PM

"Your assertion is exactly the reverse of the ground truth..."

                     I see other problems as more important than the ones you mention.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:15 PM

But still no specifics. It's amazing how much your reply sounds like another smear.

Amorphous concerns. But somehow no real issue mentioned.

Yup, just like a smear.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:17 PM

And what about my observations of Sarah?   It must be the fundamentalism you share which makes you so enthusiastic about her. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:33 PM

Riggie, have you caught religion? Sounds like you must have. Welcome to the fold.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:41 PM

What makes you think he is backing either McCain or Palin, Ron? Why does it have anything to do with his well known hatred of religion?

The fact that the addition of Palin to the Republican ticket has made McCain more attractive to a very large number of potential American voters is as obvious as the fact that water gets you wet. ;-) Rig's observation that that is the case does not mean he is endorsing either McCain or Palin, he is simply observing a political fact.

He has openly STATED that he would not vote for either McCain/Palin OR Obama/Biden.

Why, therefore, are you erecting a straw man about religion to hurl meaningless rhetorical questions at Riginslinger which imply that he's a hypocrite in his anti-religious views?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 09:35 PM

"But still no specifics. It's amazing how much your reply sounds like another smear."

               Ron - You need to consult a thesaurus. Every time somebody disagrees with you, you say they are either invovled in a "smear" or a "conspiracy theory."

               In any event, at the risk of having to face the little white coated men with the butterfly nets when I walk out my front door in the morning, I'll tell you what I think are the most important goals, both in America and world wide, and why I think the American election should be directed in one direction and not the other.

1. The most important task facing deep thinking individuals--in my opinion--is to stamp out the scourge of religion. Once that is accomplished, the country would be endowed with a rational thinking citizenry who would be able to plot out real solutions to real problems.

2. The most significant problem facing mankind--again, in my opinion, is the survival of the planet in a form that would sustain human life in the future. When non-addicted, rational thinking people address this issue, I think they will certainly discover that the one immediate thing they need to do to save the planet would be to stop the growth of human population. The most important first step to accomplish this goal would be to get a firm grip on human migration. In North America, this would mean curtailing illegal immigration from Latin America--at least at this point in time.

3. Once human population growth could be brought into some kind of a holding pattern, responsible people would need to start a mass program of in-depth education--this would include everything from math and science, to art, literature, history and music--world wide, with multiple cultures in mind.

                Once you arrived at that point, you'd be on your way to allowing mankind to occupy a peaceful and rewarding world. A place where everyone on the face of the planet could look forward to a long and fruitful life.

                Of all of the candidates out there in the American election, it seems to me that the worst possible choice for the purpose of accomplishing the above stated goals would be Barack Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 10:16 PM

Well...that certainly opens up the field for a flurry of hot debate and counterstrike, Rig... ;-)

I can hardly wait.

I think you're a bit mentally disturbed around certain specific hot issues that trouble you, Rig, like the religion thing, but I like your honesty. (grin)

Here's my list of the most important goals that strike my fancy.

1. Get American troops out of Iraq ASAP. Pay the Iraqis massive war reparations to rebuild their country. Put Bush, Cheney, and numerous others on trial for illegal aggression, lying, and unconstitutional behaviour in regards to the Iraq war.

2. Provide universal and free government-funded health care to all American citizens and make it a constitutionally guaranteed right from this time forward.

3. Stop using the CIA to import illegal drugs into the USA and subvert foreign governments. In fact, shut the bastards down and put their top people on trial as well for crimes against the nation and against humanity in general.

4. De-militarize your college campuses (remove recruitment offices, I mean).

5. Re-open the 911 investigation. There is much that needs to be re-examined there.

6. Abolish the Democratic and Republican parties and start over from scratch. In fact, abolish all political parties in the USA from here on in. Everyone runs as an individual, not as a party member of any party.

7. Establish a modest public fund to fund future election campaigns, drawn from tax dollars. By means of this fund all future candidates for government office will receive equal funding, no private donations will be allowed. All will get equal air time to present their views. The election campaign will be limited to 6 weeks. There will be no parties, therefore there will be no primaries either. You can now expect to spend about 1 per cent of what is presently spent on a presidential election campaign, and everyone who is in it will get equal media coverage.

8. Stop pestering people about their various sexual and private lifestyle choices and their religion or their lack of it. Let THEM choose how they should live for a change and as long as they're not hurting anyone or obviously breaking ordinary civil laws then leave them the hell alone.

9. Get American troops out of Afghanistan too. They're not fighting terrorism there, they're attempting to secure strategic areas and build oil pipelines. Let the Afghans deal with their own internal affairs...they'll fight it out amongst themselves like they always do, someone will eventually win, and the status quo in Afghanistan will resume like it always does as soon as the foreign armies leave.

10. Provide jobs for the unemployed and homes for the homeless. Consider that a replay of FDR's New Deal, and get to it. It can be done. All it takes is the will to do it.



That's a start. ;-) More stuff for people here to fight about. Go to it.

Neither Obama nor McCain will deliver you the programs I suggested above, by the way, and I doubt that Nader would either, not that he has a dog's chance in hell of ever being elected... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:03 PM

Well, I've never been one to let mental disturbance stop me. I was pressed for my most inner thoughts on the matter, and I gave them.
               Of course, I'm not looking for disciples!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:07 PM

Let's see. Palin lowered the real-estate tax, and made it up by raising the sales tax. Classic regressive taxation.
Palin stated (on television) that we should go to war with Russia because they invaded a NATO treaty ally.
Palin, contrary to what Palin says, solicited earmarks to a degree that makes A;aska the highest per capita recipient of Federal funds.

Or is it that reality has a liberal bias?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:03 AM

"Palin stated (on television) that we should go to war with Russia because they invaded a NATO treaty ally."

Ha! Oh, what a terrific idea that is, ho, ho! What a joke. You know, dick, they'll say anything to get a few more votes. It's just posturing. Anyone with a gram of knowledge about foreign affairs and actual reality knows perfectly well that the USA is not going to go to war with Russia over Georgia any more than Russia is going to go to war every time the USA sends troops into Panama or some other little country down there, for heaven's sake.

It's just more cynical pandering for votes and it doesn't actually mean a damn thing.

It's such an easy role for a Republican candidate to play. They love pretending to be John Wayne all the time. They've been doing it for so long that I think most of them actually believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:08 AM

Well - LH - I would agree with most of your 10 points of reform, though I'm not sure there's much to be gained now by punishing Bush, Cheney, et al. However, I don't think you'd get to first base with most of them if you don't have a clear thinking electorate first.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:30 AM

Twelve nations signed the North Atlantic Treaty on 4 April 1949: Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the United Kingdom, and the United States.
They pledged 'mutual defence'

Palin is unfortunaely just reiterating this position which may be why some European countries were so reluctant to approve extending NATO membership to unstable countries like Georgia!

Even more unfortunately to quote George Friedman, chief executive of Stratfor, a geopolitical risk analysis company in Austin, Texas

Neither McCain nor Obama `have the slightest idea of what to do about the Russians,'
`I know of no policy difference except rhetoric.'

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: kendall
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM

Man's greatest enemy is fear. Organized religion fosters fear. It's what keeps the masses in line. Do away with fear, and hatred will follow it down the drain.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

I'm more concerned about the almost religeous type of fanatism brewing in the U.S about Obama, then I am about McCain and his Republican membership / representation.

It does seem no one can question or disagree about Obama with out being labeled an infidel by the Obama cult / fan club. Scarry indeed.

I just wish everyone would sit back ... really look at the issues and the rut the U.S. has gotten itself stuck in ... but, it's too late.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:03 AM

I don;t know if you are one but,
I know religious fanantics.
The ones I know say they are waging a spiritual war
This is their brand of jihad in which they must inflict harm or hard times against anyone outside thier religion and love of God.

The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" the state of our military
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" the housing market crises
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" Wall street collapse
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" Bank failures
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" our 7% unemployment
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" our Dept of Justice
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" our global reputation
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" the Bush doctrine
The US religious fanantic is able to "look at" spending $54 Trillion we do not have.

BUT WHAT DO THEY SEE WHEN THEY LOOK ?

They see not having to pay back what the Lord has given them.
They see more of the same will change their situation.
Hard times really do help the RV evangelists, and they are happy to tell pie in the sky stories and "look how rich I got' tales.

Its hard to know what people who lie to themselves and each other really do see.

They don't see a problem with voting for more of the same
as long as their religion comes a step closer to controling the country and its government.

They say Obama as a false prophet and his followers are a religious cult. This is red meat for their Christian Cult Base.


Thats why I/m voting for McCain
So they will get exactly what they deserve in 2 years when China pulls the plug.

PS

THE Palin plan to drill ???????????

It turns out the new leases will be given to CHINA
They get ripped off and you get lied to
its a very typical US business plan.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:09 AM

Geeezuz H. Donuel .... whoa !!!

Whew, heavy stuff indeed. Damned scarry.

biLL (shivering in fear)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

You guys down there have to chill out a bit.

biLL   :)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

Deadlines to register to vote are now 2-3 weeks away.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: mg
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:15 PM

I plan to vote for Obama. However, if has been suggested, he dumps Biden and puts Clinton on, I will not vote for him/her. I might right in someone. mg

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 12:51 PM

kendall - You said that "Man's greatest enemy is fear. Organized religion fosters fear. It's what keeps the masses in line. Do away with fear, and hatred will follow it down the drain."

Some organized religion does foster fear, no doubt about it. Some does not. It depends on which congregation you attend and what points of doctrine they are focusing on. I have seen churches that foster fear, I've seen churches that don't, they foster love instead. It is my impression that much fundamentalist religion (whether Christian or Muslim or Jewish) does foster fear...while much more liberal religion amongst Christians and Muslims (and possibly Jews, but I'm not sure) usually does not.

I don't have the impression that Buddhism or Hinduism tend much to foster fear in people, since they are not based on punitive notions about sin, heaven, and hell...

Now let me amend your statement by replacing religion with politics. Ahem!

"Man's greatest enemy is fear. Organized politics fosters fear. It's what keeps the masses in line. Do away with fear, and hatred will follow it down the drain."

Take a look at your political system, and you will see who is fostering fear...your politicians are...and some of them are using religion in a big way to push the message, while others are using other ways to push the message...but the message is still fear.

Pol Pot and Stalin and Mao used fear also to push the message. They were all deeply against organized religion.

The main problem in the world, kendall, is NOT organized religion...it is the competitive political systems which use organized religion...either as their flag to wave...or as their demon to condemn.

And what are competitive political systems after? They're after power, control, money, resources, land, and material gain.

That's what they always have been after, regardless of whether or not they paid lip service to religion.

Religion is a big problem all right...but it's not nearly as big a problem as politics. Look what happens to your own society whenever there's a presidential election! Rampant fear and prejudice, division, hatred, attack and counterattack, slander, lies, innuendo, propaganda. All accomplished by politics.

Politics, my friend, IS a religion all of its own...with its gods and goddesses, its public rituals, and its bloody sacrifices. In my opinion it is the most dangerous religion of them all.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

Religion and Politics must never be discussed in Lodge.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:28 PM

That's because they (politics and religion) are the Great Dividers of humanity. And you know why they are? Because they both tend to assert that there's only one right way..."our way"...and that everyone else is wrong.

That is the basic error in their thinking. There isn't only one right way, there are many right ways for different people who have different needs and who live in different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:07 PM

Today politics united thousands of folks in my part of Colorado. They lined up from sunrise to get a spot to see and hear Obama speak at noon. They stood, some of them, for 5-6 hours, many more for 3-4 hours, to be sure they got a chance to see the next President of the United States. I was there, I was fortunate to have a chair and I was so proud to see so many people, so many people passionate and excited about politics, some of them for the first time, some of them for the umpteenth time. I'll be writing more about it in my blog, later today. It was wonderful!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:12 PM

bILL what do you talk about then. Fear and envy?

Religions and soup kitchens/pantries and breakfast programs
are a great mix.

Whenever you mix Religion with politics you get 200% politics.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:32 PM

That's true, Donuel. But if you mix militant atheism with politics...as Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot did...you also get 200% politics.

So where does that leave us?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

Veru good news, Kat. Surprising it wasn't more deeply covered in the MSM.


A

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:10 PM

"Neither McCain nor Obama `have the slightest idea of what to do about the Russians,'"



                      Why would they do anything about the Russians? The American president should be taking care of his/her own country's problems.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM

Excellent point, Rig!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM

"bILL what do you talk about then. Fear and envy?"

... auto insurance, commodities, weather, where one can get a cheap tux ....


biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:43 PM

From today's speech by Obama, right here in my backyard, so to speak:

"Change isn't about slogans, it's about substance, and if Senator McCain now wants to talk about who can bring change to Washington, that's a debate I'm happy to have," he said. "It's great he now wants to talk about putting corporate lobbyists in their place, But he needs to explain why he put seven of them in charge of his campaign – lobbyists for the insurance industry, and the oil industry, and for Freddie Mac, and for foreign governments. And if you think those lobbyists are working day and night for John McCain just to put themselves out of business, well I've got a bridge to sell you up in Alaska."

Amos, there is raw footage, 37 minutes of it, at my Rog's tv station's website:click here. (Over on the right.)

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:52 PM

'"Neither McCain nor Obama `have the slightest idea of what to do about the Russians,'"'

Neither do the Russians.

*****************************************************

If I had to vote today it would be for my friend in Montreal who sent me the following:

Yesterday I was at my local Wal-Mart buying a large bag of Purina dog chow for my loyal pet, Biscuit, and was in the checkout line when the woman behind me asked if I had a dog.

What did she think I had, an elephant? So since I'm retired and have little to do, on impulse I told her that no, I didn't have a dog, I was starting the Purina Diet again. I added that I probably shouldn't, because I ended up in the hospital last time, but that I'd lost 50 pounds before I awakened in an intensive care ward with tubes coming out of most of my orifices and IVs in both arms.

I told her that it was essentially a perfect diet and that the way that it works is to load your pants pockets with Purina nuggets and simply eat one or two every time you feel hungry. The food is nutritionally complete so it works well and I was going to try it again. (I have to mention here that practically everyone in line was now enthralled with my story.)

Horrified, she asked if I ended up in intensive care because the dog food poisoned me. I told her no, I stepped off a curb to sniff an Irish Setter's ass and a car hit us both.

I thought the guy behind her was going to have a heart attack he was laughing so hard. Wal-Mart won't let me shop there anymore.

Better watch what you ask retired people. They have all the time in the world to think of crazy things to say."

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM

LOL - Great lyrics for a song, too.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:11 PM

You ought to post that to the jokes thread, too!LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:47 PM

That's where I was heading, Kat, but I noticed this thread was gettin' pretty heavy.

This is a crucial election for the US, imo. The country cannot withstand four more Republican years. I wish Obama would take the gloves off and get into the fray. I'm not particularly enamored of the Democrats, given their coziness with GWB over that past six or seven years, bot of the two major parties, I truly hope for the sake of what's left of democracy in the USA that the Democrats win this one.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM

If you will follow my link and watch today's speech, I think you will hear him take the gloves off, a bit. I understand he will be doing more of the same. On the other hand, I saw some news blogger today who said Obama did a Tanya Harding on McCain and kneecapped him.??? Whatever he does someone is going to claim it's wrong. I was impressed before. I am even more impressed after seeing him in person. A turnout of over 6000 people in this are is HUGE and very significant. I think Colorado will go for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 08:33 PM

I will check the link on my break. Using a laptop now and it is s



l          o            w


That is great news to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:31 PM

One suggested political button

(sent by my daughter)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:26 AM

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:55 PM

"...stamp out the scourge of religion". So you plan to support McCain, who has declared that the US was founded as a Judeo-Christian nation--and will appoint Supreme Court justices who reflect that belief. And of course, dear Sarah--who can hardly wait for the Rapture--and if McCain leaves the scene prematurely, will have the opportunity to speed up the timetable.

As I noted on another thread--you really should start reading--and thinking--if it's not too much of a strain.

And if you don't support Obama, John and Sarah are what you will get--voting for anybody other than Obama is voting for McCain--not that I expect your brain to be able to absorb that fact--completely fried as it is with the terrible nightmares of the Mexican invasion, "faith-based" inquisitors pounding on your door, and (who knows what) other absurdities you cherish.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:58 PM

Peace I swear to God I will try the Purina conversation the next time the opportunity presents itself.



btw I can walk again!
My nearly severed achilles tendon is only presenting me with an unavoidable limp but it was a pleasure just to mow the lawn albeit    s l o w l y

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Pseudolus
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:19 PM

I'll tell you what, if the republicans win this election I will have to say that whoever is running this campaign is an absolute genius! They pick a running mate that no one knows and they have the Dems totally focused on her. The ads for McCain talk about how they BOTH fought the republicans and "reformed"! I thought they WERE the republicans!!!!!! they have the country so screwed up that they are looking like the answer to the republican problems of the last eight years.   It's like, "Oh yeah, the republicans really screwed things up for the last eight years and as a republican, I can't wait until we can change Washington by sending a couple republicans to office to fix the problems caused by those damn republicans. Hey, who better to fix the problems? We caused em!"

They have improved their numbers in the polls by selecting a woman for a running mate that was a governor for less than two years and have based this improvement on her experience!!!! Unbelievable!!! Look, I don't think Obama/Biden is necessarily the dream ticket of all time but McCain is not gonna get us out of Iraq, the tax breaks will continue to go to the richest people in America and if he dies in office this country will be run by someone who was governer for less than two years!!! why am I the only one who that scares the S#$@ out of???????

Oh, to answer the question....Obama....

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

Brilliant summation, Frank!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM

They've also convinced a bunch of women, it seems, that aw-shucks Sarah is just a middle class gal like them--not a woman with over $200,000 annual income and people lining up to do her favors. And it's fine that Sarah wants to overturn Roe v Wade, and can hardly wait for the Rapture--just let me at that nuclear button. Left Behind? Not me. Hope the rest of you are ready.

And on top of that, the most important question for them is not the financial system crash-and-burn, the disastrous health care system, the needless wars coming under McCain-Palin---but ---who would you like to have a beer with?

Sarah and John would be great beer buddies for the same crowd that elected GWB in 2000--preferring the frat boy to the candidate who liked to think--thinking being too intimidating. And now, it seems, there are some women who want to join their table.

And we have people, including some of our sterling citizen Mudcatters, willing to swallow the canard--in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the many plans Obama puts out, and testimony from people like Senator Lugar----that he is an "empty suit".

Not only that, they delight in spreading this casual slander.   

Do they believe it? Or do they have other motives for spreading it?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:54 PM

"And if you don't support Obama, John and Sarah are what you will get--voting for anybody other than Obama is voting for McCain--not that I expect your brain to be able to absorb that fact--completely fried as it is with the terrible nightmares of the Mexican invasion, "faith-based" inquisitors pounding on your door, and (who knows what) other absurdities you cherish."



                        Ron - Is that nice?

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Pseudolus
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

So Biden says yesterday that it is patriotic for the people in this country who make over $250,000 a year to pay more taxes. He says that they should step up to the plate and take on the burden based on how moch they make. McCain turns around later in the day and says that Biden said that it is patriotic to raise taxes. Talk about a reach...or maybe he just didn't understand. He reminds me of the Gilda Radnor Character on Saturday Night Live, "Emily Litella". Anyone remember this exchange on SNL?

Chevy Chase: Weekend Update recognizes its obligation to present the responsible opposing viewpoint to our Editorials. Here with an Editorial Reply is Miss. Emily Litella.

Emily: Whats all this fuss I keep hearing about violins on television? Now why dont parents want their children to see violins on television? Why, I thought the Leonard Burnstein concerts were just lovely. Now, if they only show the violins after 11:00 at night, the little babies will all be asleep. And they wont learn any music appreciation. Why, they'll end up wanting to play guitar, and bongo drums. And go to Africa and join these rock and roll outfits. And they wont drink milk! (Slams fist pn desk.) I say there should be more violins on television! (Chevy taps her on the shoulder.) and less game shows! Its terrible! the way they...what, what?!

Chevy: Miss. Litella, that was violence on television. Not violins. Violence.

Emily: Oh, well thats different.

Chevy: Yes.

Emily smiling: Nevermind

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

For those that don't remember, the horrible tax increase Obama proposes for those earning more than a quarter-million per year would bring their tax rates back to 1990 levels. An remember how that destroyed the economy!

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM

jeepers creepers yur questionin and critizizin is a big ol wasta time. Doncha know that our lord Jesus tells me his will, and if that means trhowing the Wall Street bums out and havin ta start over with hard work and family values then by God that is what I'm going to do.

In case you didn;t know it was Obama that gamed Wall street for everything it was worth and ran it into the ground. It was Obama who turned his back on faith and just wants to be bailed out.

John McCain has been a Maverick and has fought tooth and nail against Obama and all those Wall Street crooks for the last 20 years.

And dick, you can;t tell me nothin different because you don't know the truth, and you have not been washed in the blood of Jesus. So you go ahead and vote for that Barack Hussein Obama who is opposite of everything American in values, color and faith, and you will burn in hell.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:54 AM

Obama people just worry about themselves while real Ameicans put their Country first!

---


There is enough worry out their to open people's eyes exactly what their "country" did to them.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM

The problem is the "big lie" works. Per WSJ 19 Sept 2008, according to the latest NYT/CBS News survey, 49% of those polled believe that Obama will raise THEIR taxes. When for over 90% of the electorate the opposite is true.

The McCain campaign, and internet "information" like the e-mail Ebbie cited are constantly reinforcing this canard.

And more and more, it seems, people are saying: " I don't trust anything I see on TV or read---the media always has its own ax to grind-----but I trust what my grocer and my barber and my Sunday school teacher tell me. And they all tell me Obama is a closet Moslem who will raise my taxes--so it must be true."

That's what an "informed electorate" has come to, it seems.

So we'll have to convince the grocer, barber, and Sunday school teacher in order to get the other voter's support.

There's got to be a better way.

The only possible approach which might work seems to be to point out--over and over--that the GWB Republican regime has steered the US to ruin--and therefore it would be crazy to entrust the henhouse to yet another fox.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM

The phase we are in today is the fight to make the blame stick to regulator supports/democrats/middle class.

Yes I have heard the Wall Street Journal pundits blaming the middle class.

they say "I don't worry about the credit crunch or the adjustment loan gurantees or the bank consolidations, I WORRY ABOUT THE REACTIONS OF A PANICY MIDDLE CLASS.

Yep its our fault... again! who knew.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:09 PM

Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao. Ok, that's three out of how many thousands?

These guys were political agents, not free-thinkers. There is a decided difference.

Subject: RE: BS: If you had to vote today...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM

"So we'll have to convince the grocer, barber, and Sunday school teacher in order to get the other voter's support."



                   Well, you shouldn't have any trouble with the Sunday school teachers. They'll believe anything.