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BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus...
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 16 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM New York Times "Speaking as a wounded Marine combat veteran of Vietnam, I believe the recent election in Iraq has provided some meaning and justification to the sacrifice of America's brave soldiers and Marines in that war. Mr. Friedman's column is a breath of fresh air in that regard. But stating that President Obama has handled his Iraq inheritance deftly is folly. Had it not been for former President George W. Bush's courage in ordering the surge, civil war would reign in Iraq today. Mr. Friedman credits the U.N., the U.S. military and the Obama team for overcoming the obstacles to this election. Try as he may, Mr. Friedman cannot rewrite history as to who really deserves credit. Eugene M. Ogozalek, Scranton, Pennsylvania " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:05 AM A deal with Bobert on revealing the source of one of his "facts" that he never made good on: "Tell ya what, Sawz, I'll find the source if you'll agree that when I find it that you admit that you are wrong... Unless I get that then it's not worth the time it will take to dig it up..." "OK Bobert, I will admit that I am wrong about Saddam being given a gold plated M16 if you can show it in one of the sources you cited. Ya got a deal." He changed his claim somewhat and said he did what he was supposed to do but he never produced the source. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 10 - 08:32 AM "Same old Shit" from, Sawz... Can't debate the contents of a thread without trying to divert attention away from the subject at hand... How do you spell "personality disorder"??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 17 Apr 10 - 09:18 AM "Subject at hand" In this case Iraq Has the country dissolved into a bitter sectarian civil war - No it most certainly has not Is Iraq still a state sponsor of international terrorism - No it most certainly is not Does Iraq still seek to acquire or manufacture WMD - No it most certainly does not Does the regime in Iraq pose a threat to citizens within its own borders or to its immediate neighbours and the region in general - No it most certainly does not And the bringing about of the above (all of which were perfectly true under the rule of Saddam Hussein and his Ba'athist cronies) Bobert counts as being a mistake. Not because all those things were brought to an end, but because all those things were brought to an end by a man called George W. Bush. That and that alone is what sticks in his craw. Bobert consistantly waves this flag about one million dead Iraqis, who of course never did actually die (the number Bobert quotes as fact was in fact only an estimate of the number who MAY HAVE died - those words featuring large in the report that Bobery claims is his source). The actual figure is more like around one tenth of that figure, and most of those people were killed by foreign jihadist groups; Ba'athist insurgents; sectarian militias and criminal gangs. Had Saddam or his sons remained in power the number of innocent dead Iraq civilians who would now be dead had the regime maintained it averages would be up arround the 800,000 mark Was Iraq a mistake Bobert - NOT ON YOUR LIFE - Doubt that?? Then ask the Iraqi's themselves they have got no doubts at all about the benefits of the removal of Saddam Hussein from power, and they acknowledge that they could never have succeeded in accomplishing it on their own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 17 Apr 10 - 01:54 PM "Can't debate the contents of a thread without trying to divert attention away from the subject at hand" Your claim about the M-16 and your promise to reveal the source are all contained within this thread. You brought up the subject and now you claim it is a diversion. Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert - PM Date: 10 Feb 09 - 10:20 PM Ahhhhh, didn't matter much that the Kurds were trying to take him out... But wait, fir an extra $2.95 (plus shipping and handling) you'll get documentation that the US government had promised the Kurds they would support them against Saddam... Hmmmmmmk???... Heck, the US even provided the bad gas that was used against the Kurds... Even rewarded Saddam ****afterwards**** with all kinds of booty, including a gold plated M-16 rifle... Hmmmmmmmmm???? You got it wrong, Sawz... But what is new here??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:45 AM http://www.ak-47.us/Gold_AK47.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 18 Apr 10 - 08:34 AM See yer shrink, Sawz... Yo, T... When exactly was Iraq this hotbed of international terrorism??? While yer at it, please enlighten us about Saddam's extensive WMD program... I'm sure that Dick Cheney would love to have anything you know that no one else knows... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 10 - 10:10 AM Gold-plated AK47 Gold-plated H&K MP5 SD. submachine gun There were dozens of gold and silver plated weapons discovered in 2003. INcluding rifles, submachine guns and assault rifles. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 18 Apr 10 - 11:00 AM Ah we now have two NEW BOBERT FACTS: 1. Saddam Hussein NEVER sponsored Palestinian Suicide Bombers in the West Bank to attack Israel (Rather odd that as evidence exists that the bounty paid by Saddam to the bombers family was something in the order of US$25,000) 2. Iraq under Saddam Hussein NEVER had any WMD or WMD capability (Again rather odd that as he most certainly developed, manufactured and used such weapons, and real bitch is that you cannot univent science, once you have acquired the knowledge and capability to manufacture such weapons, the programme can be resurrected at any time) So we Gold plated weapons given to Saddam as presents by his sons (AK-47s & H&K MP5) now what about the Gold Plated M-16 that Bobert was wittering on about Rumsfeld giving Saddam, I believe that is what Sawzaw was asking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Apr 10 - 07:12 PM Well, it's true that one of Iraq's scientists, hid critical parts in his rose garden - well certain vigilantes bombed critical nuclear infrastructure, as I remember, stopping it from working years before. But the ability to manufacture sufficient naughty stuff to make nuclear weapons was never proved - other than in the minds of those inciting war and invasion. I well remember the lies about 15 Minutes! though.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 18 Apr 10 - 11:04 PM Ya know, It reallly doesn't matter if Donnie Rumsfeld presented Saddam with a gold plated M-16, Ak-47 or a turd that Donnie had dropped that morinin', fished out of the toidy and had gold plated... The fact is that Donnie Rumsfeld gave Saddam, a good US foot souldier, a gold plated ______________ (fill in yer own)... I mean, lets get real... If you listen to T then you'd think that because this ol' hillbilly wasn't there in Baghdad during the presentation of the gold plated _____________, that it never happened??? Hey, folks... It did happen!!! That is the facts here... Gold plated M-16, gold plated AK-47, gold plated Daisy BB gun, gold plated turd, it happened!!! Yeah, t, doesn't want to address that aspect of history becauase it doesn't fit in with his mythology... The facts are the facts... Saddam was "our guy"... Saddam did our bidding against Iran (with our help)... Saddam was rewarded with gifts... Saddam was gievn a wink-wink on Kuwait and then the Bush I and Bush II, for reasons that only their psychiatrist knowm decided that Saddam wasn't our man after all... I mean, what did Saddam do??? Gas the Kurds??? That's purdy flimsy... Yeah, he did it but was rewarded afterwards by the US for being a good citizen??? I mean, this entire story smells like week old dead fish... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 18 Apr 10 - 11:48 PM "Tell ya what, Sawz, I'll find the source if you'll agree that when I find it that you admit that you are wrong... Unless I get that then it's not worth the time it will take to dig it up..." "OK Bobert, I will admit that I am wrong about Saddam being given a gold plated M16 if you can show it in one of the sources you cited. Ya got a deal." Bobert's end of the deal: "It reallly doesn't matter" It really doesn't matter if Bobert makes a deal and weasels out. He has no pride in that respect. What matters to Bobert is that his ego stays in tact by never admitting he was wrong about his "facts". Anybody that points it out to him needs a shrink. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:11 AM "Saddam was "our guy"... Saddam did our bidding against Iran (with our help)... Saddam was rewarded with gifts... Saddam was given a wink-wink on Kuwait" Funny, that's way us Aussies remember it too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 19 Apr 10 - 01:01 AM The facts are the facts... 1. Saddam was "our guy"... No he was not 2. Saddam did our bidding against Iran (with our help)...The Iran/Iraq War started in 1980, Rumsfeld met Saddam in December 1983, the actual softening of relations between Iraq and the USA did not occur until November 1984, so whose bidding was Saddam doing until that point (mere than half wat through the War. Like Soviet Russia, the USA gave assistance to both Iran and Iraq during the course of the war 3. Saddam was rewarded with gifts...Only thing is Bobert cannot provide any information about them, the meeting notes of the encounter between Saddam and Rumsfeld are in the public domain, uncomfortably and inconveniently for the likes of Bobert weapons were not even mentioned 4. Saddam was gievn a wink-wink on Kuwait....No he was not 5. and then the Bush I and Bush II, for reasons that only their psychiatrist knowm decided that Saddam wasn't our man after all...Well it could only have been Bush I and Bill Clinton really 6. I mean, what did Saddam do??? Gas the Kurds??? That's purdy flimsy...So Kurdish lives and Iranian war dead mean nothing to Bobert 7. Yeah, he did it but was rewarded afterwards by the US for being a good citizen???...Rewarded how? from the US Iran got weapons, Iraq got information 8. I mean, this entire story smells like week old dead fish... Yes Bobert your version does smell like week old dead fish because it is a tissue of lies, one piled on top of another |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Apr 10 - 01:45 AM All this I'm right you are wrong can go on for as long as the Internet functions. What matters is the truth. Let Bobert provide some facts. Every time somebody provides facts he denies them with his pompous sagacity. Example: "the US even provided the bad gas that was used against the Kurds" I have provided every thing I could find about where the gas came from but that just bounced off like bullets off of Superman. You see, I research before I make an assertion. The closest things I can find to your assertion is a Dutch guy that got jail time for selling tons of ingredients to Saddam for making the bad gas and one of the ingredients came from a company in Baltimore. U.S. authorities say the defunct company, Alcolac Inc. effectively supplied both sides during the Iran-Iraq war. Alcolac pleaded guilty in 1989 to knowingly violating export laws in the case of a shipment of thiodiglycol that ultimately went to Iran. Alcolac turned a blind eye to abundant evidence in its files that this chemical was not going to the final destination that its customers stated in documents filed with customs. The other thing I found was that a non profit group gave some germ specimens to some medical group in Iraq that requested them for research. It was approved by the US government. Do you think these could have been hyped until it turned into the US selling the poison gas and Bio WMDs? Facts don't mean shit to Bobert, what matters to him is that anybody that disagrees with his unproven, unsupportable "facts" is wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:59 AM I love this screwy logic straight out of Warner Bros cartoons... "U.S. authorities say the defunct company, Alcolac Inc. effectively supplied both sides during the Iran-Iraq war. Alcolac pleaded guilty in 1989 to knowingly violating export laws in the case of a shipment of thiodiglycol that ultimately went to Iran. Alcolac turned a blind eye to abundant evidence in its files that this chemical was not going to the final destination that its customers stated in documents filed with customs." "The other thing I found was that a non profit group gave some germ specimens to some medical group in Iraq that requested them for research. It was approved by the US government.The other thing I found was that a non profit group gave some germ specimens to some medical group in Iraq that requested them for research. It was approved by the US government." Definitely proves that the US did NOT supply the stuff to Iraq at all, at all, at all ... WOW! No wonder the Road Runner always gets away! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:00 AM More unsubstantiated ***proclamations*** from the T-Bird... More ***obsessive compulsive*** postings from the Sawz... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Apr 10 - 10:23 AM More ignore the real facts from Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 19 Apr 10 - 10:29 AM Top al-Qaeda leader in Iraq has been killed Al-Qaeda's top man in Iraq, Abu Ayyub al-Masri, was killed alongside another terror chief in a government raid in the northern Iraqi province of Salaheddin, the country's Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki has confirmed....... ....Maliki told reporters that Baghdadi and Masri's identities had been confirmed after medical tests.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:26 PM More unsubstantiated ***proclamations*** from the T-Bird... Ah Bobert, I thought you would have learned by now. I can substantiate by verifiable sources every single one of those so-called ***proclamations*** Which is a damn sight more than you have ever been able to do. Remember: 3000 Patriot Missiles raining down on Baghdad (Bobert) Heads on sticks on the WHite House Lawn (Bobert) Gold-Plated M-16 (Bobert) 1,000,000 dead Iraqi's (Bobert) And ALL of the above are total crap, apologies total unsubstantiated crap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:40 PM I particularially like the "head on the sticks" analogy, T... Heck, the way I heard it it would have been purdy easy with Saddam in that word on the street is that his head actaully came off during the hanging... I wonder if the World Court were to prosecute George Bush for his war crimes against the Iraqi people and George Bush was hnaged if his head would come off??? What do you think, T??? Head off or not??? The million people killed has been substantiated by more than one source, T... SAeems we've been down this road before... The gold plated _______________... Who really gives a flyin' fig if it was a gold plated M-16, Ak-47, Daisey BB gun or a friggin' water gun from the Walmart??? The fact is that after Saddam gassed the Kurds he was presented with gifts from the US government and Donnie Rumsfeld delivered them to Saddam... That is the real story here... 3000 Patriots missles is what we are down to then... Okay, maybe it wasn't all Patriots missles... Last I heard there were over 30,000 (that's more than 10 times the 3000 figure you claim as the Holy Grail) sorties frown over Iraq during the invasion and in the weeks afterwards... Now, I ain't no rocket surgeeon here (and neither are you, T) but over 30,000 sorties, each carrying multiple bombs is a shit-load of munitions dropped on the Iraqi people, don't ya think??? Well, I do... So when you ppost figure that maybe 14,00 Iraqis died during this period (which you did a few years back) that is not a believable number... That is like a number that only someone on drugs or is mentally deficient might accept as fact... But that was your number??? That's about it, T-zer... Please get back to us on yer thoughts about Bush's head comin' off v. not coming off... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:47 AM Bobert promised to reveal his source on the gold plated _____________. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:06 AM Ah the unidentified, and totally unverifiable WORD ON THE STREET that Bobert so relies upon and that everybody else has to take as being the gospel truth without question. Comparing track records Bobert: 1. When you came out with your statement on the Patriot missiles showereing down on Baghdad it was pointed out to you that the patriot missile system is an anti-missile defence system that did not have the range to reach Baghdad or anywhere close to it. None of these facts actually deterred you though did they Bobert you still persisted in your fantasy. Now the air campaigns of 1991 and 2003 were different in many respects, that your source (the man with no connection to the US military and a rather shakey Divinity Degree from Colorado, who claims to be an expert in air warfare) totally missed out on, such as: - 1991 campaign was far more intense and wide ranging. I know why Bobert, do you? The reason is as plain as a pikestaff. - 2003 campaign was much shorter and more restricted. Again I know why Bobert, do you? Again the reason is blindingly obvious. 2. The Heads-on-Sticks that you stated that GWB had demanded that he wanted displayed on the lawn of the "White House" were those of Saddam's sons. Of course there was never ever any such demand or order given, that fact again did not deter seeker of truth and honesty Bobert from continuing to advance the myth. 3. The Gold-Plated M-16 which you Bobert stated in all seriousness had been presented to Saddam Hussein by the US Government. This of course was yet another Bobert Fact (read LIE) and you were called out on it, you were asked to substantiate it, this you agreed to do. Guess what Bobert we are all still waiting, and we will continue to wait until hell freezes over as no such Gold-Plated M-16 exists does it Bobert? By the way what were all these gifts that were showered upon Saddam Hussein by the US for gassing the Kurds? Another Bobert LIE, which I ask him to substantiate. In fact Bobert if you read the meeting notes and minutes from the initial meetings between Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein and Tarik Aziz you will find that it was mentioned that material US assistance could not be given precisely because of Iraq's use of Chemical and Biological Weapons. Easily checked Bobert it is after all in print and it has been in the public domain for years. I know that you won't do so because it actually involves you doing a bit of work and means that you have to physically read and attempt to understand something that is not some wild fantasy from your addled brain. 4. And finally The-Million-Dead-Iraqis you claim that were killed by the US invasion. Fair enough if this number is indeed fact: 1. Show me where they are buried 2. Death certificates are where Bobert? 3. Explain why in the original report the study is referred to as an ESTIMATE 4. Explain why in the original report it states that the figures given are THE NUMBER OF IRAQI CITIZENS WHO MAY HAVE BEEN KILLED Please do not attempt to deflect the discussion from your lies. You have stated categorically that over a million Iraqi citizens were killed, despite all the evidence to the contrary, OK Bobert PROVE IT. In Desert Storm which involved a far larger air warfare campaign over a far greater range of targets Iraqi deaths both military & civilian numbered around the 110,000. Between March and May 2003 the number of Iraqi deaths both military and civilian numbered around 12,000 with approximately one-tenth of those killed being civilians. Now for every single one of those there exists reports of the deaths and the incidents in which they died, there are bodies and it is known where they are buried. In short Bobert they are REAL and can be verified. Since March 2003 as the dust has settled Iraqi Authorities have worked to quantify the losses and along with other organistaions dealing in fact not fantasy or estimates the death toll arrived at is about one-tenth of the figures you brandish and wave like a flag. Again all can be proved to be REAL and factual, and most interestingly, out of their total figures 80% over the period between March 2003 to date have been killed not by the US but by Ba'athist insurgents; foreign Jihadists; sectarian militias & criminal gangs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM 1. 3000 Patriots missles is what we are down to then... Okay, maybe it wasn't all Patriots missles... No Bobert, number of Patriot Missiles expended against targets in Iraq was 0. And as I have pointed out on numerous occasions in the past the Patriot is a DEFENSIVE System it has NO ATTACK capability. The Patriot System was used in defence of Kuwait when on the evening of the 20th March the Iraqi's launched surface-to-surface missiles at targets inside Kuwait (Missiles the Iraqi's were not supposed to have had) The missiles that were used offensively were BGM-109 Tomahawk Cruise Missiles and of those the massive number of 802 were launched by US and UK forces. Last I heard there were over 30,000 (that's more than 10 times the 3000 figure you claim as the Holy Grail) sorties frown over Iraq during the invasion and in the weeks afterwards... One minute you are talking about missiles (albeit the wrong type) and now you are wittering on about Sorties. In actual fact Bobert 41,404 sorties were flown, a sortie being the word used to describe an aircraft taking off, performing its assigned task (not necessarily a combat role) and landing. The word sortie does not mean that any attack was made, or that any munitions were expended. Of the Sorties flown, 20,228 were flown by fighter aircraft; 9,064 were flown by refueling tanker aircraft; 7,676 were airlift missions; 1,656 were recce flights; AND FINALLY BOBERT 505 were bomber missions. All that lot takes the grand total of sorties flown up to 39,229, the others (2,175) were miscellaneous transfers, transport, leaflet dropping missions; rescue missions and communications flights. Now, I ain't no rocket surgeeon here (and neither are you, T) but over 30,000 sorties, each carrying multiple bombs is a shit-load of munitions dropped on the Iraqi people, don't ya think??? Well Bobert you ain't no rocket scientist, that's for sure, at times I am in serious doubt if you are actually aware of which way is up. Now the US-led Coalition had some 1801 aircraft of all sorts of different types, many of which could carry no bombs whatsoever. So let us see what could accurately be described as having been dropped on the Iraqi people both as military targets and as civilians. Guided Munitions : 19,948 munitions of various types, the bulk of which were laser guided bombs directed at military targets, in all only 804 cruise missiles were fired again primarily at military and Government targets. Targets were assigned as being Time Sensitive Targets of which there were 156 (4 Terrorist targets/50 Leadership Targets/102 WMD Site targets), and Dynamic Targets of which there were 686 all over Iraq (Mainly military bases, formations and armour) Unguided Munitions : 9,251 unguided bombs were dropped against military targets 20mm Ammunition : 16,901 rounds expended against military targets 30mm Ammunition : 311,597 rounds expended against military targets All the above is from the audited report of the Assessment and Analyses Division of USCENTAF. Now I will take their word over yours as to what aircraft did what, what it was carrying and whether or not it dropped it on anybody. The air campaign that covered the 2003 invasion basically ran from the attempted decapitation attacks on the 19th March and ended by the 14th April. Humanitarian flights started landing at Baghdad on the 16th April. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:20 AM Well, gol danged, T... Thanks fir proving my point... The essensce of my posts all along is that a shit-load of stuff was fired at the Iarqis and here you go and post just what I've been sayin' all along... That's why when you posted yer 14,000 dead number a few years back and other sources had the number much higher and as much as a million I was thinking that with that much stuff fired at folks that the US/UK armies must be some terrible shots... I mean, lets get real here, T... BTW, do have the death certifciates for the 14,000 and have you been to their grave sites??? Well, of course you don't and haven't... So when there are credible sources (Johns Hopkins, BTW, ain't no slouch) on the deaths it is unreasonable for you to think I can furnish you with death certificates and take you to each and every grave... I mean, that is well beyond either of our means... Yours or mine... Now back to the George Bush head issue... I don't recall you weighing in on whether or not George Bush's head would come off if he were hanged for war crimes??? Okay, I understand that you being a UKer you might not have enough information at hand on George Bush's head... So how about Tony Blair's head... I mean, he's quilty of war crimes, too... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 10 - 09:16 AM T... BTW, do have the death certifciates for the 14,000 and have you been to their grave sites??? As I stated earlier Bobert everything in my posts to this thread can be substantiated, death certificates, eye-witness accounts of incidents and where the people were buried. So much for Well, of course you don't and haven't... But that is all besides the point chum - you are saying that I am wrong and that over a million Iraqi civilians have been killed by US forces - All YOU HAVE TO DO IS PROVE IT But of course anyone who knows you, knows that its just a complete and utter crock of shit (rather like the Gold-Plated M-16), and that nobody is going to get jack by way of substantiation from you. Bush/Blair guilty of war crimes - No, absolutely not, I mean you guys made such a concerted effort to get GWB impeached didn't you? Care to let us all in on the secret as to how successful you all were? Care to tell us how many years Rove got sentenced to? Cheney is he going to prison or is he just enjoying his retirement? Tel leader of Al-Qaeda-In-Iraq isn't is he Bobert? Neither is his predecessor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:18 PM No, T, that's where you are wrong... I don't have to prove it... You have to prove I am wrong... I have given my sources in the past and you haven't proven those sources to be wrong... All you done is pontificate and proclaim that yer sources are better than mine... That is rediculous argument on yer part... I mean, this whole "prove it" game is jsut a diversion away from the reality that Blix gave Bush and Blair the perfect out but they were too dumb to take it... That is why they are both guilty of war crimes... This was not a war of necessity... It was a war of choice... BTW, there was no such thing as al-qeada in Iraq until Bush and Blair opened the doors for them to come in... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:36 PM The best study a wall street fatcat hedge fund manager Boss Hogg can buy: "The 2006 Lancet report states only, "Funding was provided by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the Center for Refugee and Disaster Response of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health." Soros is known for concealing his massive political donations, and the Lancet was complicit on this occasion." By the way, I like Mike Bloomberg. I wish he would run for president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 10 - 03:37 PM So tell me then Bobert why did the John Hopkins Study refer to their numbers as an ESTIMATE. You keep dancing away from this point, but I am going to keep dragging you back to it. An ESTIMATE is an educated guess, the educated guess made by the man who was responsible for conducting and overseeing this "STUDY", was comprehensively discredited by IraqBodyCount.org, who made some fairly cogent and relevant points. When the 2006 Study was published (perfectly timed in an attempt to influence an election process somewhere) others working in the field challenged it and guess what Bobert your man at John Hopkins refused to release such details as to what questions had been asked; he refused to allow independent third party verification of the data recovered from what was a "batched sample" Iraq Body Counts ripping to bits of your source is here Bobert: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/reality-checks/ Here's the Summary: Summary A new study has been released by the Lancet medical journal estimating over 650,000 excess deaths in Iraq. The Iraqi mortality estimates published in the Lancet in October 2006 imply, among other things, that: 1.On average, a thousand Iraqis have been violently killed every single day in the first half of 2006, with less than a tenth of them being noticed by any public surveillance mechanisms; 2.Some 800,000 or more Iraqis suffered blast wounds and other serious conflict-related injuries in the past two years, but less than a tenth of them received any kind of hospital treatment; 3.Over 7% of the entire adult male population of Iraq has already been killed in violence, with no less than 10% in the worst affected areas covering most of central Iraq; 4.Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued; 5.The Coalition has killed far more Iraqis in the last year than in earlier years containing the initial massive "Shock and Awe" invasion and the major assaults on Falluja. If these assertions are true, they further imply: - Incompetence and/or fraud on a truly massive scale by Iraqi officials in hospitals and ministries, on a local, regional and national level, perfectly coordinated from the moment the occupation began; - Bizarre and self-destructive behaviour on the part of all but a small minority of 800,000 injured, mostly non-combatant, Iraqis; - The utter failure of local or external agencies to notice and respond to a decimation of the adult male population in key urban areas; - An abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year. In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data. You have stated that over 1 million Iraqis were killed by US Forces - PROVE IT. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:44 AM The silence from Bobert is almost deafening |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:40 PM Estimate is the best that anyone can do, T... Estimates are generally considered to be numbers that fall within a 10% deviation... As fir silence, T... Give my poor ol' jillbilly butt a chance... Unlike you, I have to, ahhhhhhh, "work" (look that word up in Webster's if you need to...lol)... But back to sources... Hey, I'll be the first to admit that figuring out how amny Iragis died is purdy much a crapshoot... I tend to see the upper ends as more believabler strictly from the fire power... Back in military school we had to take M.S.T. (Military Science Training) so I understand the realtionship between fire power and casualties... Of course, maybe all the folks who were sent over there forgot how to shoot straight... I mean, that's always a possibility but even if they had forgotten the rounds had to go somewhere... Then we're down to the "if these assertions were true" whioch is what I have been saying all along here... That "if" become a monsterously bigass word here... So when you have various organizations trying put a number on the death toll and it comes down "if these assertions are trus" then for you to expect me to prove, or vice versa, that one study is the correct one over another is simply, ahhhhhh, lacking in all logic... BTW, you never got around to giving an opinion on whether or not Bush or Blair's heads would come off if they were hanged as a result of being found guilty of war crimes??? I'm thinkin' that Tony's wouldn't but Bush's probably wood but it's kinda like the various sources that we have each referenced on the death toll... Kinda conjucture... But it's okay for you to voice an opinion on the head/no-head question... I won't ask you to "prove it"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:22 PM I am willing to give Bobert a pass on the heads on sticks comment. Obviously it was a metaphor for collecting a trophy. However he has a disdain for stats. That is unless he wants to prove a point using stats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:41 PM Estimate is the best that anyone can do, T While that may well be the case IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY OTHER INFORMATION. It most certainly IS NOT the best that anyone can do in the situation where it involves bodies piling up on the streets. - People are missed and inquiries are made, the fact that they are missing is reported. - People know where bombs, cruise missiles, etc land and explode. they know depending upon location, time of day or night, who is working or living at that location and then inquiries are made into the well being of those people who should have been there. A search of the location will reveal bodiee, body parts, or human remains. - Those wounded in any such attack can verify who was and who was not present. - Hospital mortuaries register bodies brought in - Hospitals register who is brought in for treatment There is a whole raft of information and sources to define and quantify those killed. And groups such as Iraq Body Count, UN and the Iraqi Ministries have done a far more thorough job of this than John Hopkins "batch sampled" ESTIMATE, especially the Iraqi Authorities as they have had to bury the dead and figure they give is nowhere near the number the John Hopkins Study is talking about. Same was true with the figures bandied about for Dresden, first there were wild propaganda claims about 250,000 to 350,000. The Gestapo at the time made it betweeb 18,000 and 25,000 a group specially commissioned after the war put the number at between 25,000 and 30,000. Little or no conjecture when it comes to official Iraqi figures, as I said before they buried them and compiled the reports of those killed and wounded in incidents and those who later died in hospital. Those numbers are not ESTIMATES, they are about as FACTUAL as you can get them. Now you said that US forces had killed over 1 million Iraqi's - PROVE IT. PS Bobert If you cannot prove it, then just say so and stop using figures that you cannot substantiate and stop wittering on about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:31 PM No, T... First of all, we're going to have to ask you to pee in the cup 'casue yer thinkerator is gummed up an we suspect that illegal drugs may be at play here... But seriously... Posting one organization's methodology is real nice... Maybe you'd go a little further and rather than use right wing blogs and web sites as yer compass try Googling other sites that might better expalin to you the methodology that others folks, such as the Johns Hopkin's study... Ya' know, somewhere in between my "upwards of a million" and yer "ahhhhh, maybe a couple dozen" is the truth and the truth is that one shit load of Iragis died... Can we at least agree on that??? (Note: Do not consider this as any changin' of thinkin' on my number... Jus' time to get beyond the same old stupid arguments) Now back to Blix and his stement to the UN... That's where the tire hits the pavement... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 22 Apr 10 - 12:25 AM Ah the same old Bobert tactic when you are being backed into a corner. 1. No, T... First of all, we're going to have to ask you to pee in the cup 'casue yer thinkerator is gummed up an we suspect that illegal drugs may be at play here... Coming from you that has got to be a joke!! 2. But seriously... Posting one organization's methodology is real nice... Nice it maybe, it most certainly is a damn sight more than you have EVER done in support of your ludicrous arguments. 3. Maybe you'd go a little further and rather than use right wing blogs and web sites as yer compass try Googling other sites that might better expalin to you the methodology that others folks, such as the Johns Hopkin's study... Another Bobert classic, please, please,please Bobert contact IraqBodyCount.org and tell them that you think that they are a Right Wing Blog. Don't know where either of you are located but on receipt of your message YOU will hear their howls of laughter down in your cellar. Iraqi Health Ministry; Iraqi Interior Ministry; WHO and other UN web-sites Bobert are similarly NOT BLOGS. 4. Ya' know, somewhere in between my "upwards of a million" and yer "ahhhhh, maybe a couple dozen" is the truth and the truth is that one shit load of Iragis died... Ah but Bobert that is not what you repeatedly state is it? You always come out with the lie that 1 million Iraqis were killed by US forces. I ask you again - PROVE IT. 5. Can we at least agree on that??? Most certainly we can agree that one shit load of Iragis died, 80% of them having been killed NOT by US Forces but by their fellow countrymen and fellow muslims. 6. Now back to Blix and his statement to the UN... That's where the tire hits the pavement... Attempted deflection of argument in order to change the subject, not buying it Bobert, you are as wrong on Blix (have you read his book by the way? - No, thought not) as you are on US forces having killed over 1 million Iraqis. We can discuss Blix any time after you have learned to read. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:30 PM US Soldier apologises to Iraq people after WikiLeaks 'Collateral Murder' video |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:33 PM QUOTE After the WikiLeaks story broke and he realised what he'd been part of McCord, together with Steiber, penned an open letter of apology to the people of Iraq, claiming such atrocitiies weren't the reason behind their enlisting. Reading from it on the World Today, McCord said: "I pulled your daughter and son from the van and when doing so saw the faces of my own children back home. "There is no bringing back all that was lost. All we seek is to learn from our mistakes. "The people of the United States need to realise what we have done and are doing to you and the people of your country. "We humbly ask you what we can do to repair the damage we have caused." McCord said he enlisted to go to Iraq and help the Iraqi people. "I was living in a fairytale, obviously," he said. "Our job was not to protect the Iraqi people, it was more along the lines to out-terrorise the terrorists." UNQUOTE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:07 PM You can dismiss what I say as the same old, same old, T, but what the hell kinda stuff you puttin' in the pot... Yeah, the same old, same old on my side is that Dr. Blix reported to the UN Sdecurity Council on January 27, 2003 in which he said, and I quote, "the most important... is that the Iraqia are cooperating fully"... Exactly what is it in that partion of the report that you don't understand??? I mean, on this side of the pond "the most important" means "the most important" yet you have never answered wny in yer book "the most important" means nothing to you as you gleefully bounce from one "less important" flower to the next like a bumble bee??? You have evaded and avoided Blix's "most important" aspect of the report like it was a radiation pit... Hey, I know why... You can't bring yourself to say, "Geeze, maybe we didn't have to go to war afterall"... And I understand that... Sheet fire, man... If I had that much blood on my hands I'd prolly do excatly what you are doing and that is the same as yer buddies Tony "Balony" Blair and George "Cokehead" Bush: try to lie yer way outta this life into the next one... Problem is that killers don't get a next life... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM Apache helicopter gunners talk good game 'so the people don't seem real' QUOTE The soldiers joke and jeer as they shoot: "Look at those dead bastards," one helicopter pilot says. Another replies: "Nice . . . good shootin'." Reports yesterday said many veterans who viewed the footage made the point that soldiers cannot do their jobs without creating psychological distance from the enemy. One reason that the soldiers seemed as if they were playing a video game is that, in a morbid but necessary sense, they were, experts told The New York Times. "You don't want combat soldiers to be foolish or to jump the gun, but their job is to destroy the enemy, and one way they're able to do that is to see it as a game, so that the people don't seem real," Bret A. Moore, a former US army psychologist and co-author of the forthcoming book Wheels Down: Adjusting to Life After Deployment, told the newspaper. Military training is fundamentally an exercise in overcoming a fear of killing another human, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, author of the book On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, told the paper. Combat training "is the only technique that will reliably influence the primitive, midbrain processing of a frightened human being" to take another life, the colonel writes. "Conditioning in flight simulators enables pilots to respond reflexively to emergency situations even when frightened." UNQUOTE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:11 PM "Military training is fundamentally an exercise in overcoming a fear of killing another human" Or, learning to lose respect for others people as human beings, so when they come back into 'normal' society, they have already dehumanised others. Q.E.D. The USA and other countries I will not name... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:17 PM Activists targeted as secrets exposed ACTIVISTS behind a website dedicated to revealing secret documents have complained of harassment by police and intelligence services as they prepare to release a video showing a US attack in which 97 civilians were killed in Afghanistan. Australian Julian Assange, a founder of Wikileaks, has claimed that a restaurant where the group met in Reykjavik, the capital of Iceland, came under surveillance last month and one of the group's volunteers was detained for 21 hours by police. Mr Assange said he had been followed on a flight from Reykjavik to Copenhagen by two US agents. The group has riled governments by publishing documents leaked by whistleblowers. Last week, it released the cockpit recording from a US Apache helicopter as it killed Iraqi civilians, including a Reuters photographer, in Baghdad in 2007. Mr Assange claims surveillance has intensified as he and his colleagues prepare to put out their Afghan film. It is said to concern the so-called Granai massacre, when US aircraft dropped bombs on a suspected militant compound in Farah province on May 4 last year. Several children were among the dead. Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar. End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar. In messages on Twitter, the internet social networking site, Mr Assange complained of "covert following and hidden photography" by police and foreign intelligence services. There have been thinly veiled threats, he said, from "an apparent British intelligence agent" in a car park in Luxembourg. "Computers were also seized," another member of Wikileaks said on Twitter, raising alarm among supporters with a subsequent post: "If anything happens to us, you know why . . . and you know who is responsible." Their apprehension is perhaps understandable. The US defence establishment has made it clear that it would like to silence the site. In 2008, the Pentagon produced a report on how to undermine and neutralise Wikileaks. This, too, emerged on the website. Mr Assange, who is believed to be 37, founded Wikileaks three years ago with a group of like-minded computer programmers, academics and activists. The site says it has had more scoops since then than The Washington Post in three decades and has become a clearing house for sensitive documents. It has exposed crimes from toxic dumping and tax evasion to extrajudicial murders in Kenya. Mr Assange says the 38-minute Iraqi video broadcast by the group is evidence of "collateral murder" by US forces. It shows a group of Iraqi men being killed by gunfire from the helicopter. A helicopter then shoots at a van arriving to take the bodies away. The film has been seen by millions and the website, which claims to exist on a shoestring budget, says it has received more than $160,000 in donations since its release last Monday. Broadcasting such a film could expose Wikileaks to prosecution in the US but the organisation appears to have put itself beyond the reach of court injunctions by existing only in the digital sphere. The Sunday Times |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:21 PM QUOTE Soldiers and marines were taught to observe rules of engagement, and throughout the video those in the helicopter call base for permission to shoot. But at a more primal level, fighters in a war zone must think of themselves as predators first, not bait, the report said. That frame of mind affects not only how a person thinks, but what he sees and hears, especially in the presence of imminent danger, it said. The fighters in the helicopter say over the radio that they are sure they see a "weapon", even though the Reuters photographer, Noor-Eldeen, is carrying a camera. "It's tragic that this all begins with the apparent mistaking of a camera" for a weapon, David A. Dunning, a psychologist at Cornell University, told the paper. "But it's perfectly understandable with what we know now about context and vision. Take the same image and put it in a bathroom, and you swear it's a hair dryer; put it in a workshop, and you swear it's a power drill." To a soldier or a pilot, it can look like life or death. "I worked with medivac pilots, and vulnerability is a huge issue for them," Dr Moore told the paper. UNQUOTE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 12:59 PM Well Well Well, Looks like the Bobert approved Chicago tough guy approves of the Iraq War: Nov 7 2008: MR. RUSSERT: Now, knowing that are no weapons of mass destruction, would you still have cast that vote? REP. EMANUEL: ...I still believe that getting rid of Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do, OK?... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Greg F. Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:49 PM Source, please, and that was two years ago. A great deal has changed since then. Can you please try to be corrent, if not cogent? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Oct 10 - 03:24 PM And coherent would be good too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:06 PM I that an order boss? Congressman Rahm Emanuel, had worked hard to guarantee that Democratic candidates in key toss-up House races were pro-war. In this he was largely successful, because of the money he commands and the celebrity politicians who reliably respond to his call, ensuring that 20 of the 22 Democratic candidates in these districts are pro-war. So the fix is in for the coming elections. In 2006, no matter which party controls the House, a majority will be committed to pursuing the war on Iraq--despite the fact that the Democratic rank and file and the general voting public oppose the war by large margins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:14 PM Co authored by By Rahm Emanuel and Bruce Reed: "We need to use all the roots of American power to make our country safe. America must lead the world's fight against the spread of evil and totalitarianism, but we must stop trying to win that battle on our own. We should reform and strengthen multilateral institutions for the twenty-first century, not walk away from them. We need to fortify the military's "thin green line" around the world by adding to the U.S. Special Forces and the Marines, and by expanding the U.S. army by 100,000 more troops. Finally we must protect our homeland and civil liberties by creating a new domestic counterterrorism force like Britain's MI5. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: GUEST,mg Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:23 PM I know it is terribly painful to think about, but in two hundred years, we will probably not be asking this question, any more than people now ask was the American Revolution a mistake (and I am not convinced it was totally necessary) or was the French Revolution a mistake. We all can see the human wreckage that things like this produce, but we don't look and say, well, what if we hadn't done this or that. Would people have been kept in semi or real slavery? Used as cannon fodder in aggressive wars? Fed into paper shredders? The future will thank everyone who sacrified their lives, in the home country, in the supporting troops, in the countries who gave of their finest and endebted themselves so that, in addition to whatever assets they acquired, such as oil, water, etc...they also eventually had some version of freedom unknown to their ancestors..and no, I would never ever impose democracy on a people coming out of a repressive situation. I would impose martial law and let them work their way out of it. No one 200 years from now will say was it worth it because they will know that it ultimately was. I heard a song a couple of weeks ago about a coal miner and the man is talking about his father who I think says I was the last one of our line to live in slavery...so when were your ancestors able to get out of real slavery, such as the AFrican Americans had to endure, or near slavery, such as the Russians, Irish, English serfs had to endure? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:03 AM QUOTE We need to use all the roots of American power to make our country safe. America must lead the world's fight against the spread of evil and totalitarianism, but we must stop trying to win that battle on our own. We should reform and strengthen multilateral institutions for the twenty-first century, not walk away from them. We need to fortify the military's "thin green line" around the world by adding to the U.S. Special Forces and the Marines, and by expanding the U.S. army by 100,000 more troops. Finally we must protect our homeland and civil liberties by creating a new domestic counterterrorism force like Britain's MI5. UNQUOTE Pay for it? What you talking about Charlie? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Iraq Was a Mistake, Teribus... From: Teribus Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:54 AM 800 Up |
